Is This A Tactic, Or Just Incompetence?

July 10, 2020 11:35 AM

YANML. We have been asked to sign legal papers regarding the shared private road access to our property. Strange shenanigans have ensued. Details after the jump.

Without getting too far into it, the estate of a neighboring property has hired a lawyer to straighten out some quit claim deeds that were done between the (now) deceased owners of the property across the street from ours, and the (former) owners of our property. The estate's lawyer says the estate is currently unable to sell the property because of the existing quit claims. Signing back the quit claims does not benefit us in any way, except that the property would be able to be sold and would be less likely to sit vacant for years, presumably becoming a den of sin and iniquity eventualy. We, therefore, made a request of the estate in return for signing the quit claims. The lawyer wrote back to the effect of, "Great, yes, the estate agrees to your request, and I have included it in the enclosed agreement. Please sign every thing now."

We reviewed the "new" paperwork he sent, and our request is not even mentioned. We wrote back and said, "Hey you forgot the part about where we requested X." He said, "Oh right, OK I fixed that, please sign everything now." We reviewed, and again, there was no mention of our request. We then had a meeting with the estate's executor and the estate's lawyer and explained in person what we were asking for. They agreed to do it. They sent us paperwork and, you guessed it, no mention of what we wanted. So we got our own lawyer, thinking maybe it was us, not communicating in proper legalese. Our lawyer drew up paperwork and sent it to their lawyer. Who emailed, and said, basically, "Great, since we're all on the same page, I've drawn up the final paperwork, please sign it right away because this is dragging out and the estate is anxious to sell the property." So we read it, and it they just wrote the exact same thing as before.

I'm so over this. The only reason I feel any need to address this is because I'd like for the property not sit vacant. In our area there is the very real possibility of people using the place to cook. There are already people hiding stolen cars over there (we know this because the cops came to mark the cars abandoned, and they actually towed them away saying they were "evidence.").

Is the estate's lawyer using some sort of lawyer tactic where they try to just wear you down to the point you just sign to make the issue go away? Or could this just be actual incompetence? The Estate's lawyer always acts as if he doesn't remember where we left things, and asks us to refresh his memory, saying, for example, "So what was your objection to the last agreement submitted?" He should know very well what it was, not only because its the same objection every time, but because he should have my emails where I've clearly stated our objection.

I feel like I'm in an abusive relationship, and the lawyer is gas lighting me.

I just got another email from him and my instinct is to just stop responding. Would there be a huge downside to just ignoring him, do you think?

posted by WalkerWestridge to Human Relations (29 answers total)

Tell the lawyer that if he does not include your request in the next batch of documents, you will report him to the state bar for tortious interference between your relationship to the estate.

Then report him anyway.
posted by notsnot at 11:42 AM on July 10, 2020 [51 favorites]

Did anything else change in the documents between the versions? Maybe he's unwilling to consider that he's having technical difficulties and is sending an old version of the file?
posted by esker at 11:44 AM on July 10, 2020 [1 favorite]

The lawyer, and maybe the estate, are Fucking With You. Tell them that since they do not appear to be acting in good faith, you plan to review your request, as you will be incurring legal fees. No matter what they send next, take your time responding.
posted by theora55 at 11:47 AM on July 10, 2020 [24 favorites]

Have you spoken with your lawyer since the last revision of documents came in? Has your lawyer advised you on whether you should sign the revised documents? I would expect that your lawyer should be able to communicate with the estate's lawyer that the contract is not as agreed, and further revision is needed before you can sign. Maybe the estate's lawyer will take the response of another lawyer more seriously.

On a completely different thought, is it possible that the lawyer is sending you redlines of the contract, but you somehow have your program set to view the Original version of the document, instead of the Final version? I've had one very confusing exchange with a coworker when we were both reading the same MS Word document, but were seeing different text, because I was viewing the Final (with markup) and their settings defaulted to viewing the Original (no markup) version of the document. This would really only be likely if they're sending you Word docs, rather than PDFs.
posted by yuwtze at 11:59 AM on July 10, 2020 [17 favorites]

report him to the state bar for tortious interference between your relationship to the estate. Don't do this; you would look ridiculous.

You can tell them that if they're serious, they are welcome to attend a meeting at your lawyer's office to reach a final agreement. You can point your finger at the paper and show them that your request X is not there. Or, possibly, they can point at a different part of the paper and explain with words, not hand-waving, why they believe X is included.
posted by JimN2TAW at 12:01 PM on July 10, 2020 [5 favorites]

I would talk to your attorney about what is going on, and that you are thinking about reporting their attorney to the bar for misconduct. Get your attorney to take a look. I think there are a couple of things to know here:

First, your attorney may have more sway in getting them to revise the document. It's possible that it's a technical issue. It seems likely that they're counting on you to not actually read the thing, which sounds like misconduct here.

Second, all attorneys are mandated to snitch on each other for misconduct, and your attorney may have a better idea of how to handle this than a bunch of weirdos on mefi.
posted by bile and syntax at 12:02 PM on July 10, 2020 [17 favorites]

I would take a simpler tack: send a final note that says no further action will be taken on your part until the estate's attorney sends an amended document, with a clear page/paragraph where you can find your request added to the new document. Then never reply to another email/letter/whatnot unless it has what you want.

I would find it absolutely ridiculous to pay my own lawyer another cent for this.
posted by nosila at 12:05 PM on July 10, 2020 [10 favorites]

PS. At this point, they should also be giving you a lot of money. The whole purpose of this nonsense is so they can sell their property.
posted by JimN2TAW at 12:14 PM on July 10, 2020 [7 favorites]

Per Johnny Assay, if you have a lawyer and are not adverse to spending some money to just make this go away, have your lawyer draft documents that say what you want, sign those and send them to the other party.
posted by GuyZero at 12:16 PM on July 10, 2020 [6 favorites]

I would only use your attorney to communicate, and let the estate know they're paying for your attorney, and each communication adds to what it's going to cost them to get this done.

I would definitely include a price on the next go-round. They had their chance at free, and fucked it up by trying to be cute, and now it's $10,000. If they fuck it up again it'll be $15,000. Etc.

Your numbers may not match mine, but make it enough money that they have to stop fucking around. (The property isn't really unsaleable; it's just that potential future owner would have to negotiate with you for the needed quit-claims in order to get clear title. I wouldn't buy a property like that, but others might. Taking care of that ahead of time is smart, but they're being total dumbasses about this, unless your conditions are overly restrictive or weird enough to put off future buyers.)
posted by maxwelton at 12:31 PM on July 10, 2020 [8 favorites]

If you have a lawyer, it's breach of ethics for that attorney to still be contacting you directly. Your state should have a version of this model rule.
posted by mcgsa at 12:32 PM on July 10, 2020 [9 favorites]

Yeah, if your position is that you will only do it if X is included, then you should say that to them exactly one more time and then not bother communicating with them again if they keep not including X.

I would not waste my time reporting the lawyer to anybody. What you describe is super annoying, and would be grounds to refuse to do business with the counter-party for wasting your time and being annoying, but it isn't improper. It certainly isn't tortious interference. The lawyer does not represent you, he/she represents the estate and might be doing exactly what he/she is being instructed to do by his/her client.

I don't think there is enough information in the question to really be able to comment on whether the lawyer is being incompetent or tricky, but it doesn't really matter for purposes of how you should handle it. But, if you want to understand better why they keep leaving your language out of the document, you should have your lawyer ask that question directly.
posted by Mid at 12:42 PM on July 10, 2020 [2 favorites]

What they seem to be missing is that you are the one with the leverage here. They want something from you, not the other way around. Hold your ground.
posted by AugustWest at 12:43 PM on July 10, 2020 [3 favorites]

I will add to the suggestion that it could possibly be a technical misunderstanding, if they're using a fancy revision-tracking feature of their document editor (and professionals like lawyers and accountants often do). They may think they're even helpfully highlighting the differences between each version of the paperwork, and are mystified that you seem to stubbornly insist on the same objections no matter what they change, unaware that you aren't seeing what they're seeing. Are they sending you DOCX files?

As for broader advice I have nothing for you other than, if I were in your shoes, I'd raise this possibility with my lawyer and leave it to them to sort it out with the other party's lawyer.
posted by traveler_ at 12:58 PM on July 10, 2020 [4 favorites]

I got advice from a lawyer I know and he suggested that you just take the paperwork, add your own clause stating the X request, print it out, sign it, and send it back to the lawyer. It’s not clear if the paperwork your lawyer drew up was signed by you before they sent it back, but in case it wasn’t, it’s worth a try!
Otherwise, maybe it is a technical understanding, in which case I’d go back to your lawyer so they can take care of it for you.
posted by Champagne Supernova at 12:59 PM on July 10, 2020 [3 favorites]

Best answer: Sounds to me like they already have a buyer lined up that wants to do something with the property they know you won't like, and that you can block with the agreements that are already in place and with the amendments your propose to their paperwork, as well. I wouldn't be surprised if their attorney is working with the potential buyer.

I think you need an experienced land use attorney who you are absolutely sure is not afraid to oppose developers in order to have an even chance of not getting taken advantage of here.

And it would be entirely reasonable to make whatever you choose to do contingent on a payment which would cover your legal fees.
posted by jamjam at 1:12 PM on July 10, 2020 [27 favorites]

I see that some have suggested that a possible reason you're not seeing changes is that adverse attorney may be using some kind of change-tracking you're not viewing properly. I mean, sure, this is remotely possible. But it is SOP in the legal world to send a clean revised copy (i.e., with only the new text) as well as a "redline comparison" showing the differences between the clean revised version and the previous version. If you're only getting one copy of the document, I highly doubt you're missing something due to view settings or whatever.

I agree with jamjam that you should be on alert for any funny business from the opposite side. I also think you're correct that the "estate's lawyer [is] using some sort of lawyer tactic where they try to just wear you down to the point you just sign." The stupid thing about this, on their part, is that this tactic really only works for the side that has leverage and can say, "take it or leave it." In this case, the party with the leverage is you not the estate. In consideration of the fact that you have the leverage, I would have your lawyer draw up the papers you want, then have your lawyer present those to the opposing side's attorney and effectively say, "Here's the contract we're willing to sign. Take it or leave it -- we're not open to modifications"
posted by slkinsey at 2:07 PM on July 10, 2020 [4 favorites]

I feel like I'm in an abusive relationship, and the lawyer is gas lighting me.

This was my (IANAL) experience in working with an opposing attorney, and what I realized was that in my case everything we were doing was to avoid going to court. If I asked for something but didn't have the paperwork to justify it, the court wouldn't give me that, so why would the lawyer settle for it either? By the same token they did the bare minimum required of them to gather information from other people, because again, in court those were things my side would have to do the heavy lifting over.


This framing isn't 100% applicable to your circumstances but it might give you a way to think of their motivations in this matter.
posted by Nonsteroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drug at 3:43 PM on July 10, 2020 [2 favorites]

Charge a fee to sign.
posted by Freedomboy at 4:02 PM on July 10, 2020 [1 favorite]

My work has "helpful" e-mail security features that, when enabled, will cause issues like you describe. They get sorted out the first time someone kicks back a document saying the revisions weren't made. It's hard for me to imagine someone attempting to pull the exact same trick multiple times, either. Once, maybe - we check our final-to-sign agreements for a reason - but three times also seems less than competent?

Either way, the most generous response I'd have after three rounds would be to forward their own e-mail back to them and say 'still waiting for a final with these revisions'.
posted by mersen at 7:56 PM on July 10, 2020 [1 favorite]

I have had unfortunate experience with slimy lawyers and would like to second jamjam's advice.
posted by sepviva at 9:12 PM on July 10, 2020

Response by poster: Thank you to everyone who has answered!

We do know that we are getting the correct version of the paper work because there are things red lined and changed, just not the one thing we asked of them.

I'm going to take Jamjam's advice and seek a land use lawyer. Is a real estate lawyer similar/the same thing?
posted by WalkerWestridge at 10:34 PM on July 10, 2020

Certified letters/mail. Best postal upgrade ever.

Email is still kinda iffy in court.

IANYL, IANAL.
posted by Afghan Stan at 1:46 AM on July 11, 2020 [1 favorite]

I wonder if it's possible that the attorney is scamming their own clients by telling them that you're being difficult and charging billable hours for all these multiple revisions? Let us know what happens, it's such a bizarre scenario that closure would be nice!
posted by Larry David Syndrome at 5:55 AM on July 11, 2020 [4 favorites]

Response by poster: Larry David Syndrome, it's dragged on for more than a year now. I will update you, but it might not be any time soon. Sigh.
posted by WalkerWestridge at 9:44 AM on July 11, 2020 [1 favorite]

Yeah, you can always bundle it all up and mail it to the other side. This would be a follow up action based on Larry David Syndromes suggestion.

They might be totally unaware of your responses - or lack of response; since you keep on getting the same paper over, and over again to sign.
I mean what; it is only costing the other side hundreds of dollars a month. And making their attorney hundreds a month.
Good lawyers exist. Most are. In this instance; the other side, opposing party; choose the nomenclature; their actions are not indicative of much comprehension of the statements you have sent them. Repeatedly.
IANAL IANYL.
posted by Afghan Stan at 10:17 AM on July 11, 2020

it's dragged on for more than a year now.

This makes me think that this whole thing is not as important to them as it is to you. The lawyer is handling x dozen other matters and isn't thinking about this one every day or even every month. What you are perceiving as a tactic or abuse is likely just inattention. It is very unlikely that there is a buyer on the line for more than a year. Perhaps they come back to you when they get a potential buyer on the line and then they fade away when it seems that no sale is imminent. If they really had a deal in hand they would be on the phone with you every day to get this done.

I wouldn't sign anything and send it to them when they aren't asking for it. You want to deal with them when they are asking you for something, not when they have gone silent.

Your issue isn't the thing holding up a deal - if it was, they would be very incentivized to deal with you, but they aren't.

I think it is extremely unlikely that the lawyer is failing to communicate your position - you say you met directly with the executor and made your position clear, for example. But if you are worried about this you could send an email or letter to the executor person you met with and explain your position.
posted by Mid at 8:43 AM on July 12, 2020

Response by poster: I don't mean to thread sit but just to give some more info that may be important...

This situation is wierdly convoluted, I tried to keep it very simple in my ask, but it's hard to know what to leave in and what to keep out for brevity's sake. There actually is a buyer waiting on the property. I know this because it's our former general contractor, who we no longer work with because we felt she was being dishonest about the situation across the street. Jamjam picked up on that and nailed it right on the head. We think the contractor is getting some kind of really sweet deal since she is willing to wait so long to get her way.
posted by WalkerWestridge at 9:36 AM on July 12, 2020

You don't have to have the estate "agree to your request" for a quitclaim deed. You can have your own lawyer draw up a quitclaim deed with the wording you want to use. It's not something anyone else is signing, so they don't have to "agree" to it. It's likely you might be able to extract some sort of concessions from them in exchange for a quitclaim, and they would need to agree to that, but simply disclaiming your ownership in something -- this other lawyer doesn't even need to be involved, you could just file it at the courthouse. (I'm not a lawyer and certainly not your lawyer)

The only reason I feel any need to address this is because I'd like for the property not sit vacant.

Keep in mind that the property being sold is no guarantee that it won't continue to sit vacant.

If the only reason you are signing a quitclaim is to guarantee something you don't have any guarantee of... I'm not sure you have a reason to sign. But maybe there are some local laws that would apply differently, talk to your lawyer about this specific issue.

If you control the access road (which again, lawyer), you might be able to have some sort of better security for the property. Or maybe some bright motion detector lights and cameras towards the road would encourage people to choose another spot for these sorts of things.
posted by yohko at 7:20 PM on July 15, 2020