But I don't want to argue..... teen edition
January 22, 2020 7:08 AM Subscribe
A teen in my family has fallen into a habit of argumentative debates and pot stirring. I need suggestions and tips on how to gently end or extricate oneself from these lectures.
Here’s the pattern. In the midst of otherwise pleasant social interaction, say eating breakfast, teen will launch into a heartfelt impassioned lecture on topic A. Topic A is almost never something that anyone else was discussing. Next, someone will offer a counter position, or mostly agree with some caveats. Without seeming to consider the opinions offered, teen will offer more arguments including some with limited factual basis. After a bit of this, family members will try to get end the debate or agree to disagree. Teen does not accept alternative viewpoints, does not want to end the debate and gets huffy. Teen will later bring up the debate at generally inopportune times attempting to get people re-engaged in the debate. Anything less than 100% agreement with their view, can result in a) teen not willing to end a conversation, b) teen bringing the debate up again and again.
While their passion and interest in a myriad of topics is commendable, they are becoming difficult to be in conversation with. Moreover, their tendency to always value their opinion over others opinions (or lived experience) is tricky. They will debate topics against people with substantially more intimate first hand knowledge, discounting the other person's views when they don’t align with their own.
My question is – what are your tips for gracefully exiting or shutting down these conversations? And how do you create space for everyone to have their opinion, but not be required to debate from that position until teen is satisfied. Hope me.
Here’s the pattern. In the midst of otherwise pleasant social interaction, say eating breakfast, teen will launch into a heartfelt impassioned lecture on topic A. Topic A is almost never something that anyone else was discussing. Next, someone will offer a counter position, or mostly agree with some caveats. Without seeming to consider the opinions offered, teen will offer more arguments including some with limited factual basis. After a bit of this, family members will try to get end the debate or agree to disagree. Teen does not accept alternative viewpoints, does not want to end the debate and gets huffy. Teen will later bring up the debate at generally inopportune times attempting to get people re-engaged in the debate. Anything less than 100% agreement with their view, can result in a) teen not willing to end a conversation, b) teen bringing the debate up again and again.
While their passion and interest in a myriad of topics is commendable, they are becoming difficult to be in conversation with. Moreover, their tendency to always value their opinion over others opinions (or lived experience) is tricky. They will debate topics against people with substantially more intimate first hand knowledge, discounting the other person's views when they don’t align with their own.
My question is – what are your tips for gracefully exiting or shutting down these conversations? And how do you create space for everyone to have their opinion, but not be required to debate from that position until teen is satisfied. Hope me.
if you're this kid's parent, it's your job to teach them this is socially unacceptable behavior.
"Philbert, you can't come in here spouting this stuff and just expect us to engage. That's not how conversations work. You're being very rude." -Fin-; if he keeps at it then ignore.
[edit - above poster is right - the less attention given to this, the better, as it is an attention grab. But I do think it is important for the kid to be told that this is not how conversations work, before applying the extinction methodology.]
posted by fingersandtoes at 7:23 AM on January 22, 2020 [31 favorites]
"Philbert, you can't come in here spouting this stuff and just expect us to engage. That's not how conversations work. You're being very rude." -Fin-; if he keeps at it then ignore.
[edit - above poster is right - the less attention given to this, the better, as it is an attention grab. But I do think it is important for the kid to be told that this is not how conversations work, before applying the extinction methodology.]
posted by fingersandtoes at 7:23 AM on January 22, 2020 [31 favorites]
Meanwhile, is there a debating team at Teen's highschool they could join? Might serve as a good outlet and provide feedback.
posted by stray at 7:23 AM on January 22, 2020 [19 favorites]
posted by stray at 7:23 AM on January 22, 2020 [19 favorites]
I would print this out, put it on a little sign, and hold it up or point to it every time he spouted off. But that's just me -- sometimes the only way to counter obnoxiousness (obnoxicity?) is by being even more obnoxious.
posted by Mchelly at 7:41 AM on January 22, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by Mchelly at 7:41 AM on January 22, 2020 [2 favorites]
I want to second the recommendation to have Teen join a debate club. High school debate or mock government is serious business. By participating, Teen will learn how to have respectful, informed debates, and will learn how to use facts and logic appropriately -- because Teen won't win an actual debate or a mock government vote/resolution simply by shouting other people down, Teen will have to actually present a coherent, truthful, and respectful argument.
Personally, I get why this is annoying but I think it says good things about Teen's ability and desire to think deeply and critically about things, and I think that that's something to be developed and encouraged rather than extinguished.
posted by rue72 at 7:43 AM on January 22, 2020 [15 favorites]
Personally, I get why this is annoying but I think it says good things about Teen's ability and desire to think deeply and critically about things, and I think that that's something to be developed and encouraged rather than extinguished.
posted by rue72 at 7:43 AM on January 22, 2020 [15 favorites]
In at least some cases, the compulsive arguing comes not from deliberate naughtiness, but from anxiety/ cognitive dissonance over a seeming logical inconsistency in the teen's world. I suspect this might be especially true if the teen in question is otherwise a reflective person who values reason: they're actively trying to model how the world works and how other people's minds work in the world, so to have an instance where they and key authority figures have reached different conclusions about the truth of the world, without exactly knowing why the conclusions differ, is very anxiety-provoking.
Simply falling back on assertions of lived experience ("Look, in my experience, that's just not true, you'll understand when you're older") does not at all resolve the anxiety, because the teen can logically grasp the shape of your experience and it still seems not to imply your conclusions, so where is the disconnect? Shouldn't we talk it through and through and through until we can figure it out and make the world consistent again?
I guess you can try to brute-force shut it down by ignoring or shaming them for discussing, but imo that's kind of a cruel way to do it. What would have worked much better for me at that age would have been Socratic questioning to gently prod the discussion back from conclusions to premises: "EATING MEAT IS MURDER, can't you see that??" "So would you say all meat, or are insects OK? How about plants? Hmm, interesting, so what is it that sets animals apart? What if the meat were lab-created, would that change it?" If the teen is trying to create a logical model of the world, then they may find it a relief/ even kind of fun to work through it that way, and if you notice along the way a premise that differs from one of yours, you can point it out as the source of your original disagreement.
posted by Bardolph at 7:48 AM on January 22, 2020 [42 favorites]
Simply falling back on assertions of lived experience ("Look, in my experience, that's just not true, you'll understand when you're older") does not at all resolve the anxiety, because the teen can logically grasp the shape of your experience and it still seems not to imply your conclusions, so where is the disconnect? Shouldn't we talk it through and through and through until we can figure it out and make the world consistent again?
I guess you can try to brute-force shut it down by ignoring or shaming them for discussing, but imo that's kind of a cruel way to do it. What would have worked much better for me at that age would have been Socratic questioning to gently prod the discussion back from conclusions to premises: "EATING MEAT IS MURDER, can't you see that??" "So would you say all meat, or are insects OK? How about plants? Hmm, interesting, so what is it that sets animals apart? What if the meat were lab-created, would that change it?" If the teen is trying to create a logical model of the world, then they may find it a relief/ even kind of fun to work through it that way, and if you notice along the way a premise that differs from one of yours, you can point it out as the source of your original disagreement.
posted by Bardolph at 7:48 AM on January 22, 2020 [42 favorites]
Oh my god don't use the sign Mchelly posted. That the most tedious haw-haw-yer-young thing ever. I thought it was dumb and patronizing when I was 16, and I'm even more certain of that now that I'm nearly 50.
posted by uberchet at 7:48 AM on January 22, 2020 [50 favorites]
posted by uberchet at 7:48 AM on January 22, 2020 [50 favorites]
Remembering my own teen years, I would have been infuriated and humiliated if my good faith efforts to engage with adults conversationally were blatantly ignored or infantalized with little signs about my immaturity. Please acknowledge this teen's interest in taking on the world. Ask in private what they want to get out of interactions like the ones you see. Talk with them about conventions of polite discourse. Give them some resources (especially if they're coming from a place of privilege) and outlets like debate club or, even better in my opinion, writing some of these persuasive arguments as essays.
posted by cocoagirl at 7:56 AM on January 22, 2020 [29 favorites]
posted by cocoagirl at 7:56 AM on January 22, 2020 [29 favorites]
It’s really tough to be a teen (even a teen with Dumb Opinions) when you first start realizing that the world isn’t fair in the sense that the best argument doesn’t always win. You’re already feeling intensely frustrated 99.9% of the time from hormones alone. Your baseline is “grumpy.” Also that cute kid in your class will never like you because you don’t have the right hair. :-( And then it starts seeming like every time you start learning about an idea, you find out a bunch of Sellout, Corrupt Adults who aren’t even listening are standing in the way of good things.
There are three separate things here:
1. Get the teen to stop being so annoying. The rare kind of tone policing that’s appropriate. Have a conversation about the difference between wanting to talk about a topic and caring about the topic (just because we don’t want to discuss Big Tech at the table doesn’t mean we aren’t thinking about it or we don’t know about it.) People can work for good in many different ways, and shouting fights at family dinner are ineffective. Also, have some manners—treat people with kindness and respect. Hectoring someone about their dumb idea isn’t the way to be in the world. (This is why treating the teen with sarcasm and disrespect is also a bad idea.)
2. Engage with the teen constructively. So the teen is making a dumb argument—at least they care! Even better, they think you’re worth discussing it with. Stonewall the attempt to pick a fight by deflecting without shutting the teen down: “Where have you been reading about that? Have you ever listened to X podcast, you might like it?” “Have you heard about how that law got passed in the first place, it’s a fascinating story?” “You might like this show I watched about that.”
3. Complicate the teen’s thoughts to deepen them. It sounds like they care a lot about the value of an argument to persuade. If you have a shared interest in politics, you can get into some really interesting history stuff with them that will grow their impulses into something more complex. They could read Taylor Branch’s trilogy on MLK for an example of how much work it takes to achieve change and what commitment to an idea really means in practice. They could read Robert Caro’s LBJ books and see how a bad person can make good change. I’m sure there are countless stories of how a well-meaning person can make bad change, or how refusal to consider opposing arguments can lead to disaster.
posted by sallybrown at 8:07 AM on January 22, 2020 [20 favorites]
There are three separate things here:
1. Get the teen to stop being so annoying. The rare kind of tone policing that’s appropriate. Have a conversation about the difference between wanting to talk about a topic and caring about the topic (just because we don’t want to discuss Big Tech at the table doesn’t mean we aren’t thinking about it or we don’t know about it.) People can work for good in many different ways, and shouting fights at family dinner are ineffective. Also, have some manners—treat people with kindness and respect. Hectoring someone about their dumb idea isn’t the way to be in the world. (This is why treating the teen with sarcasm and disrespect is also a bad idea.)
2. Engage with the teen constructively. So the teen is making a dumb argument—at least they care! Even better, they think you’re worth discussing it with. Stonewall the attempt to pick a fight by deflecting without shutting the teen down: “Where have you been reading about that? Have you ever listened to X podcast, you might like it?” “Have you heard about how that law got passed in the first place, it’s a fascinating story?” “You might like this show I watched about that.”
3. Complicate the teen’s thoughts to deepen them. It sounds like they care a lot about the value of an argument to persuade. If you have a shared interest in politics, you can get into some really interesting history stuff with them that will grow their impulses into something more complex. They could read Taylor Branch’s trilogy on MLK for an example of how much work it takes to achieve change and what commitment to an idea really means in practice. They could read Robert Caro’s LBJ books and see how a bad person can make good change. I’m sure there are countless stories of how a well-meaning person can make bad change, or how refusal to consider opposing arguments can lead to disaster.
posted by sallybrown at 8:07 AM on January 22, 2020 [20 favorites]
A combination of modelling conversational/casual argumentation that's ultimately low stakes emotionally as well as turn-taking in lively drawing room dialogue (such as it is) and the socratic method mentioned by Bardolph makes most sense to me, for a precocious kid. They get to feel heard but you're also actively teaching them manners in an argument would be so valuable down the line. Along with the debate club, hopefully you'll still get a critical minded adult but not an insufferable one.
Of course this all doesn't apply if he's exploring racist rhetoric.
posted by cendawanita at 8:08 AM on January 22, 2020 [5 favorites]
Of course this all doesn't apply if he's exploring racist rhetoric.
posted by cendawanita at 8:08 AM on January 22, 2020 [5 favorites]
I agree this is something worth talking about with them in general, and not just trying to gracefully manage in the moment. Presumably teen doesn't want to be someone who is an ass and doesn't listen or learn to others, so a fairly blunt warning about how they are coming off may be worthwhile. And lay out some ground rules (such as "discussion, not argument.")
Have them practice explaining other people's position back to them. Not in a mocking way; in a way that the person would endorse. Being able to do this helps build up your own case and make it more convincing! So they should have an incentive to do it. But it would also force them to listen to people. You could try that with them too and see if it contributes to a tone change.
I am *not* enamored with logical fallacies lists for this type of person, as often it becomes a way of glibly dismissing other people's arguments instead of questioning your own.
posted by mark k at 8:20 AM on January 22, 2020 [3 favorites]
Have them practice explaining other people's position back to them. Not in a mocking way; in a way that the person would endorse. Being able to do this helps build up your own case and make it more convincing! So they should have an incentive to do it. But it would also force them to listen to people. You could try that with them too and see if it contributes to a tone change.
I am *not* enamored with logical fallacies lists for this type of person, as often it becomes a way of glibly dismissing other people's arguments instead of questioning your own.
posted by mark k at 8:20 AM on January 22, 2020 [3 favorites]
I believe that most conversations and expression in general are an attempt to make sense of the world, so this sounds like it could be a symptom more than a problem in itself. Since the goal is to simply shut it down, could there be a lack of intellectual stimulation in general, or within the family?
We don't know that the topics are from the dark recesses, and even if they are, shouldn't the family be able to tolerate, absorb, and redirect these topics? And even if they are, from where does this desire come from? Not to be melodramatic, but this reads as a cry for help to me.
Perhaps naturally there's projection here on my part (as maybe there is in all advice), because I did grow up in a family that did shut down every conversation that challenged a parent's perspective. Funnily enough, the cliché my dad used to end these conversations was "I don't want to argue about it," before refusing to engage any further. This anti-intellectual dynamic is implicated in years of therapy (so far) for me!
This is a part of your family now, forbidding topics or styles of interaction is not going to make it go away. How do you feel when a person disregards or dismisses something you feel strongly about? Putting up walls is only going to exclude you from their life, "Yeah I guess you're right" is not going to happen.
That said, "what do you mean?" is a positive way to engage them while not having to invest in an argument. Let them explain themselves out.
posted by rhizome at 8:26 AM on January 22, 2020 [8 favorites]
We don't know that the topics are from the dark recesses, and even if they are, shouldn't the family be able to tolerate, absorb, and redirect these topics? And even if they are, from where does this desire come from? Not to be melodramatic, but this reads as a cry for help to me.
Perhaps naturally there's projection here on my part (as maybe there is in all advice), because I did grow up in a family that did shut down every conversation that challenged a parent's perspective. Funnily enough, the cliché my dad used to end these conversations was "I don't want to argue about it," before refusing to engage any further. This anti-intellectual dynamic is implicated in years of therapy (so far) for me!
This is a part of your family now, forbidding topics or styles of interaction is not going to make it go away. How do you feel when a person disregards or dismisses something you feel strongly about? Putting up walls is only going to exclude you from their life, "Yeah I guess you're right" is not going to happen.
That said, "what do you mean?" is a positive way to engage them while not having to invest in an argument. Let them explain themselves out.
posted by rhizome at 8:26 AM on January 22, 2020 [8 favorites]
My teen is just like this. He has Social Pragmatic Communication Disorder, which used to be contained in Autism Spectrum Disorder until recently. What I've learned is that it is better to disagree, explain why I feel that way, and disengage. Continuing to engage solves nothing; he will just continue to explain why he's right and I'm wrong. It's tempting to continue to argue because he is very smart and it's frustrating when he gets argumentative but won't really listen, but we've learned that he won't budge but will just argue the same points over and over, so it's better to walk away. Interestingly, he mostly does that with us, his parents, but is willing to listen and concede points to other authority figures, like teachers and his therapist.
posted by ceejaytee at 8:40 AM on January 22, 2020 [8 favorites]
posted by ceejaytee at 8:40 AM on January 22, 2020 [8 favorites]
In the midst of otherwise pleasant social interaction, say eating breakfast, teen will launch into a heartfelt impassioned lecture on topic A. Topic A is almost never something that anyone else was discussing.
Does Teen maybe not feel included in these pleasant social interactions? Is Teen's opinion on the topic at hand invited?
I'm just wondering if it's possible that Teen starts feeling invisible and insecure and grabs the spotlight to compensate. I have a family member who is nearly forty and doing this. It's...very hard. If it's based on an unmet need, it's best if it gets figured out and resolved kindly when Teen is a teen and not a needy, scratching, middle-aged gasbag.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 8:53 AM on January 22, 2020 [10 favorites]
Does Teen maybe not feel included in these pleasant social interactions? Is Teen's opinion on the topic at hand invited?
I'm just wondering if it's possible that Teen starts feeling invisible and insecure and grabs the spotlight to compensate. I have a family member who is nearly forty and doing this. It's...very hard. If it's based on an unmet need, it's best if it gets figured out and resolved kindly when Teen is a teen and not a needy, scratching, middle-aged gasbag.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 8:53 AM on January 22, 2020 [10 favorites]
What are the negative effects of this habit? Is there another sibling who never gets a word in or seems intimidated by the argumentative tone? In that case, I think you could reasonably tell them they need to let other people have a turn. Same if it happens when you have guests. It is off-putting for guests to be in the middle of the argument.
Is it annoying to you, or do you think it's bad for their development to go on arguing like that? In those cases there may be trade-offs. Like, at least your teen is having dinner with you and talking. If it's annoying to you and you don't want to indulge bad social or intellectual habits, you can model being assertive and rational. "I'm surprised to hear you say that, because [point out inconsistency]. No wait, hear me out..."
For what it's worth, I hate it when people argue at the table instead of conversing and in your place I would try to pre-empt or redirect into actual conversation, even if it means something obvious like going around and asking everyone to say one funny thing that happened that day or announcing, "Hey, let's talk about plans for the summer." But I don't think you should make them stop arguing altogether.
posted by BibiRose at 9:01 AM on January 22, 2020 [1 favorite]
Is it annoying to you, or do you think it's bad for their development to go on arguing like that? In those cases there may be trade-offs. Like, at least your teen is having dinner with you and talking. If it's annoying to you and you don't want to indulge bad social or intellectual habits, you can model being assertive and rational. "I'm surprised to hear you say that, because [point out inconsistency]. No wait, hear me out..."
For what it's worth, I hate it when people argue at the table instead of conversing and in your place I would try to pre-empt or redirect into actual conversation, even if it means something obvious like going around and asking everyone to say one funny thing that happened that day or announcing, "Hey, let's talk about plans for the summer." But I don't think you should make them stop arguing altogether.
posted by BibiRose at 9:01 AM on January 22, 2020 [1 favorite]
As someone personally down to argue almost anything, any time, I'm sympathetic to this kid, but the sooner they learn that there's a time and a place, the better for them socially. (Humility in the face of other people's experience is something that for most people, I think, comes only with their own experience, so politeness is going to have to do the work here, too.) Thoughtful engagement to the level of your interest in the topic, a gentle statement of the sort suggested above concerning manners, and then polite disengagement from that topic.
Question: is your kid in a school that adequately teaches and provides opportunities for intellectual dispute? People have suggested debate club, student government, etc., but a good school should be expecting this kind of conversation in class.
posted by praemunire at 9:21 AM on January 22, 2020 [1 favorite]
Question: is your kid in a school that adequately teaches and provides opportunities for intellectual dispute? People have suggested debate club, student government, etc., but a good school should be expecting this kind of conversation in class.
posted by praemunire at 9:21 AM on January 22, 2020 [1 favorite]
You definitely need to talk about this at a time OTHER than in the moment. There is zero chance that you will be successful if you try to bring it up right when they want to argue about copyright or confederate statues.
posted by selfmedicating at 9:38 AM on January 22, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by selfmedicating at 9:38 AM on January 22, 2020 [3 favorites]
The most positive thing my parents did for my sister and I growing up was to let us explore intellectually at the dinner table, and yes, even argue. My mother was a bit better about encouraging the practice of discussing or arguing in good faith, but both parents did set a good example of questioning and evaluating things. My career path has taken a few different twists and turns, but I think I have always been well-served by being able to evaluate, analyze and think orthogonally to a given issue.
That said, I don't think we have enough context to answer your question, as I suspect if we knew that the child (whose gender was not identified) was arguing for, say, gay marriage, our answers would be predominantly different, given MeFi culture, than if the child was arguing for white nationalism.
I agree with those who suggest just trying to let the discussion play out. I can say that I occasionally have a student in my college classrooms who just wants to argue to be combative. I find that if you just continue down a chain of "well, tell me more about that..." and "why do you think you feel that way..." and "what do you think caused that..." the conversation will dry up after a surprisingly short time.
If the young person is just absolutely not able to read social cues, perhaps it is something similar to a social spectrum disorder, as suggested above, and may need help from a specialist. But, it could just be that the family needs to let people air stuff out more and just help people practice a constructive tone. I have a pre-tween/tween myself and they often want to argue for what seems like no reason. We just try to hear things out and remind them that it's hard to listen to such an aggressive tone. Rinse and repeat. And repeat...
I do wish you good luck!
posted by Slothrop at 9:39 AM on January 22, 2020 [3 favorites]
That said, I don't think we have enough context to answer your question, as I suspect if we knew that the child (whose gender was not identified) was arguing for, say, gay marriage, our answers would be predominantly different, given MeFi culture, than if the child was arguing for white nationalism.
I agree with those who suggest just trying to let the discussion play out. I can say that I occasionally have a student in my college classrooms who just wants to argue to be combative. I find that if you just continue down a chain of "well, tell me more about that..." and "why do you think you feel that way..." and "what do you think caused that..." the conversation will dry up after a surprisingly short time.
If the young person is just absolutely not able to read social cues, perhaps it is something similar to a social spectrum disorder, as suggested above, and may need help from a specialist. But, it could just be that the family needs to let people air stuff out more and just help people practice a constructive tone. I have a pre-tween/tween myself and they often want to argue for what seems like no reason. We just try to hear things out and remind them that it's hard to listen to such an aggressive tone. Rinse and repeat. And repeat...
I do wish you good luck!
posted by Slothrop at 9:39 AM on January 22, 2020 [3 favorites]
Sincere question: has teen had the experience of being dismissed or not taken seriously by adults who matter (relatives, teachers, etc)? Bc this looks like that kind of behavior.
One way to address is (if you don’t want it to happen at the mealtime) to say “I’m not prepared to take this up at the moment, but can we table it until (name a time, and then do follow up)?” Listen and validate anything you can, restate the argument respectfully to be sure you’re hearing them right, and then respond w “I” statements.
Ymmv
posted by toodleydoodley at 9:41 AM on January 22, 2020 [4 favorites]
One way to address is (if you don’t want it to happen at the mealtime) to say “I’m not prepared to take this up at the moment, but can we table it until (name a time, and then do follow up)?” Listen and validate anything you can, restate the argument respectfully to be sure you’re hearing them right, and then respond w “I” statements.
Ymmv
posted by toodleydoodley at 9:41 AM on January 22, 2020 [4 favorites]
Many good suggestions here. The phrase that got used a lot in our house was "You're perseverating." We'd discuss a topic for a couple minutes but if the teen kept at it, that's all they got: You're perseverating.
posted by GuyZero at 9:46 AM on January 22, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by GuyZero at 9:46 AM on January 22, 2020 [1 favorite]
I'm answering this bc in many ways, I was that teen (and onward into my early 20s), and Bardolph's answer seems to resonate from what I remember feeling at the time.
I don't know if any of these things will help you, but I think being introduced to these ideas when I used to engage in that behavior far more fervently might have helped me - it might or might not apply to your teen:
-An outlet for that extra energy for lack of a different word. For me, it really was wanting to make sense of the world and understand ideas and inconsistencies. On my own, I discovered editorials in newspapers and it really helped. Not to argue with anyone, but just to be able to read another person's opinion that might be similar (of far different) and how and why they came to that conclusion. But it was something I could do on my own that I think calmed me down a bit at that age.
-Cite. You mention being frustrated by some of the teen's points being based on a 'limited factual basis'. Another peer who used to engage in these discussions with me in my early 20s would state - "I believe X because of Y cited in ....place ...If you believe counter-X, why and what are you citing?" At least for me, this got me to go look up the information and come back at a later time, or do this as part of a discussion.
-If you can have a non-confrontational conversation with your teen outside the time of the discussion, try to figure out the why behind these discussions. It might help your perspective with it or finding other ways to engage, etc.
-Discuss with the teen how these discussions might make other people feel or ways to bring in other conversation partners, etc. I do wish I had been introduced to this at a younger age - I think I might not have doubled down on an argument or thought about other ways of presenting or discussing things. It can be a really simple script like "Aunt Martha feels scared/sad/anxious if another person dismisses their past because of ... experience."
-Could any of these things be associated with loss of control? I tended to do this stuff more if I felt I was forced into a situation I did not like (darn religion classes) and at the time, probably lacked the words to say that I did not agree with the class/the idea/did not want to do such a class - so instead I engaged in arguing/debating. But having a choice to go/not go might have taken that behavior away. Also, there are things that your teen could do to address things the things that discuss and feel passionate about? Like volunteering or demonstrating? Are there teen groups that try to address those issues? It might be another way to spend that energy and spend that time trying to change it in the world vs changing your mind.
-Find another way to engage you heard them. Honestly, I do remember feeling unheard as a young person and just wanted someone to engage with whatever idea seemed phenomenally important at the time. But handing the person a book or editorial or X and say - "Hey - this made me think of what you said" would have made me feel heard and calmed that inner need to speak about X or Y or Z all the time. I'm also going to caution about flat out trying to convince them of your point of view with whatever you hand them - maybe something that acknowledges their point of view and yours, etc., because being handing something with only the other person's point of view can also make you feel unheard.
-Do you have another relative or friend who likes these kinds of discussions? It might give you time off from those discussions if someone else will do it from time to time.
posted by Wolfster at 9:46 AM on January 22, 2020 [6 favorites]
I don't know if any of these things will help you, but I think being introduced to these ideas when I used to engage in that behavior far more fervently might have helped me - it might or might not apply to your teen:
-An outlet for that extra energy for lack of a different word. For me, it really was wanting to make sense of the world and understand ideas and inconsistencies. On my own, I discovered editorials in newspapers and it really helped. Not to argue with anyone, but just to be able to read another person's opinion that might be similar (of far different) and how and why they came to that conclusion. But it was something I could do on my own that I think calmed me down a bit at that age.
-Cite. You mention being frustrated by some of the teen's points being based on a 'limited factual basis'. Another peer who used to engage in these discussions with me in my early 20s would state - "I believe X because of Y cited in ....place ...If you believe counter-X, why and what are you citing?" At least for me, this got me to go look up the information and come back at a later time, or do this as part of a discussion.
-If you can have a non-confrontational conversation with your teen outside the time of the discussion, try to figure out the why behind these discussions. It might help your perspective with it or finding other ways to engage, etc.
-Discuss with the teen how these discussions might make other people feel or ways to bring in other conversation partners, etc. I do wish I had been introduced to this at a younger age - I think I might not have doubled down on an argument or thought about other ways of presenting or discussing things. It can be a really simple script like "Aunt Martha feels scared/sad/anxious if another person dismisses their past because of ... experience."
-Could any of these things be associated with loss of control? I tended to do this stuff more if I felt I was forced into a situation I did not like (darn religion classes) and at the time, probably lacked the words to say that I did not agree with the class/the idea/did not want to do such a class - so instead I engaged in arguing/debating. But having a choice to go/not go might have taken that behavior away. Also, there are things that your teen could do to address things the things that discuss and feel passionate about? Like volunteering or demonstrating? Are there teen groups that try to address those issues? It might be another way to spend that energy and spend that time trying to change it in the world vs changing your mind.
-Find another way to engage you heard them. Honestly, I do remember feeling unheard as a young person and just wanted someone to engage with whatever idea seemed phenomenally important at the time. But handing the person a book or editorial or X and say - "Hey - this made me think of what you said" would have made me feel heard and calmed that inner need to speak about X or Y or Z all the time. I'm also going to caution about flat out trying to convince them of your point of view with whatever you hand them - maybe something that acknowledges their point of view and yours, etc., because being handing something with only the other person's point of view can also make you feel unheard.
-Do you have another relative or friend who likes these kinds of discussions? It might give you time off from those discussions if someone else will do it from time to time.
posted by Wolfster at 9:46 AM on January 22, 2020 [6 favorites]
Internally, it's a healthy thing to value one's own opinion over the opinion of others. It's just rude to make it obvious to the others. "I could be wrong..." is usually said out of courtesy rather than conviction, but it does smooth interactions, like please and thank you.
You can talk about how it makes you feel to get embroiled in debates over breakfast, or about how certain topics are too personal for you to discuss outside of, say, a one-on-one conversation where there has been a check in about it being a good time for intense conversation. Are these debates actually lower stress for the teen than other topics that may come up over breakfast? Maybe mutual agreement and a script for how everyone is allowed to opt out of stressful topics while at meals?
I'm remembering the huge disconnect when I'd bring up topics that had been treated as non-controversial, shared-values stuff at school, and my parents would bristle and shut down the discussion at home, often by citing lived experience but without trusting me with any specifics. I understand that an overly debatey teen may not feel like a safe person to get vulnerable with and trust with those details, but that might be something to work toward. "I want to share my personal stories with you on this subject, but my feelings around this are really tender, and it would hurt too much to ever have it thrown in my face as part of a debate."
posted by Former Congressional Representative Lenny Lemming at 10:35 AM on January 22, 2020 [4 favorites]
You can talk about how it makes you feel to get embroiled in debates over breakfast, or about how certain topics are too personal for you to discuss outside of, say, a one-on-one conversation where there has been a check in about it being a good time for intense conversation. Are these debates actually lower stress for the teen than other topics that may come up over breakfast? Maybe mutual agreement and a script for how everyone is allowed to opt out of stressful topics while at meals?
I'm remembering the huge disconnect when I'd bring up topics that had been treated as non-controversial, shared-values stuff at school, and my parents would bristle and shut down the discussion at home, often by citing lived experience but without trusting me with any specifics. I understand that an overly debatey teen may not feel like a safe person to get vulnerable with and trust with those details, but that might be something to work toward. "I want to share my personal stories with you on this subject, but my feelings around this are really tender, and it would hurt too much to ever have it thrown in my face as part of a debate."
posted by Former Congressional Representative Lenny Lemming at 10:35 AM on January 22, 2020 [4 favorites]
I agree that you need to have "family debate hour" or something BUT, it's never too early to also demonstrate that you better come with citations and you better come having already researched the other side, because literally, why should anyone consider your uninformed opinion?
There are a lot of good Rhetoric 101 type books that cover evaluating sources, framing a classical argument, etc. If they truly want to debate, they need to put in the time to learn how to do it well. If they just want to say inflammatory things and hold court, that's a different issue.
posted by nakedmolerats at 10:36 AM on January 22, 2020 [1 favorite]
There are a lot of good Rhetoric 101 type books that cover evaluating sources, framing a classical argument, etc. If they truly want to debate, they need to put in the time to learn how to do it well. If they just want to say inflammatory things and hold court, that's a different issue.
posted by nakedmolerats at 10:36 AM on January 22, 2020 [1 favorite]
I think I'd frame this less as a rhetoric / informal logic issue (which really invites debate and nit-picking) and more as a pragmatic issue in the linguistic sense of not following a cooperative principle / Gricean maxims for making conversations work. And, like, it's fine for kids to try the limits of what works--those maxims aren't actually prescriptive but rather inferred as maxims people seem to aim for, most but definitely not all of the time. But if you're not relevant and concise and so on, it's also pretty typical for people to ignore you. This may be a case where it would help to spell out common expectations with a short list.
posted by Wobbuffet at 11:36 AM on January 22, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by Wobbuffet at 11:36 AM on January 22, 2020 [2 favorites]
I have a teenager, and I work with teenagers, as in, they work for me in a business.
I share that because as a parent, I don't like to shut communication down much, even if it's ham-fisted communication. I would probably spend time talking to the teen about the problematic aspects that you've outlined. The "continuing the argument if people have not 100% agreed" part reads as especially concerning to me as this goes beyond conversational style and into boundary violations. If the teen presents as male I think this can be especially important as this kind of behaviour can result in complaints of harassment (it can for people of any gender presentation, but I think there is a zeitgeist that is particularly urgent for young men right now.) I would try another dozen times and then maybe adopt some of the extinction approach, especially any sort of chasing people down to make a point.
As an employer, I have had to take it up in a very serious way with a staff member with a very similar issue where it became an issue of a hostile work environment for other people. This will depend on the age of your teen and whether it's just a thing they do at home or whether it's a deep uncontrollable impulse. But it was a harsh lesson for that teenager (who has improved since).
posted by warriorqueen at 12:14 PM on January 22, 2020 [5 favorites]
I share that because as a parent, I don't like to shut communication down much, even if it's ham-fisted communication. I would probably spend time talking to the teen about the problematic aspects that you've outlined. The "continuing the argument if people have not 100% agreed" part reads as especially concerning to me as this goes beyond conversational style and into boundary violations. If the teen presents as male I think this can be especially important as this kind of behaviour can result in complaints of harassment (it can for people of any gender presentation, but I think there is a zeitgeist that is particularly urgent for young men right now.) I would try another dozen times and then maybe adopt some of the extinction approach, especially any sort of chasing people down to make a point.
As an employer, I have had to take it up in a very serious way with a staff member with a very similar issue where it became an issue of a hostile work environment for other people. This will depend on the age of your teen and whether it's just a thing they do at home or whether it's a deep uncontrollable impulse. But it was a harsh lesson for that teenager (who has improved since).
posted by warriorqueen at 12:14 PM on January 22, 2020 [5 favorites]
anyone yet had a 'come to jesus' talk with this kid about boundaries? consent and boundaries are very big in the culture of the high school I work at, and when kids try to draw me or other students into discussions I don't want/am not prepared for/is not appropriate I talk about boundaries. I remind them that not everyone is safe/comfortable/equipped to talk about any given thing at any given time, and when people decline, they are showing you their boundary. because I work at a small school where most interactions are small group or often one on one, this makes sense, and I think could work in these family setting conversations. frame this not as the teen being illogical, a poor debater, or even just annoying, but as what it truthfully is: a lack of the teenager to empathize with what their actions may be doing to their family members. help them learn this skill.
posted by wellifyouinsist at 12:20 PM on January 22, 2020 [13 favorites]
posted by wellifyouinsist at 12:20 PM on January 22, 2020 [13 favorites]
Does Teen maybe not feel included in these pleasant social interactions? Is Teen's opinion on the topic at hand invited?
I'm just wondering if it's possible that Teen starts feeling invisible and insecure and grabs the spotlight to compensate.
If Teen wants to feel less invisible then they need to be coached to learn to find interlocutors who want to talk about the same things they do. They can get their needs met elsewhere without expecting that their family (or any other group) will always cater to them. It's not necessarily a big deal if their input isn't invited because they need to learn to live in a world where people aren't going to roll out a red carpet for their contributions.
posted by blerghamot at 12:48 PM on January 22, 2020 [1 favorite]
I'm just wondering if it's possible that Teen starts feeling invisible and insecure and grabs the spotlight to compensate.
If Teen wants to feel less invisible then they need to be coached to learn to find interlocutors who want to talk about the same things they do. They can get their needs met elsewhere without expecting that their family (or any other group) will always cater to them. It's not necessarily a big deal if their input isn't invited because they need to learn to live in a world where people aren't going to roll out a red carpet for their contributions.
posted by blerghamot at 12:48 PM on January 22, 2020 [1 favorite]
My autistic kid does this, and it's even more frustrating because we'll have a debate, he will agree with other people's points and shift his position, and then start the same conversation again the next day from his original perspective as if it never happened. Bardolph's suggestions above make that somewhat less annoying.
When I'm too exhausted to engage, I'll flat-out say that I don't have the energy for a debate, or that I want to talk about topic X instead. If you have a conversation with this kid (not in-the-moment) explaining in more detail why you will sometimes do that, and explaining why it's not appropriate to try to force people in social situations to talk about something they're not interested in, is that at all helpful?
RE debate teams, YMMV, but in my kid's case it encouraged the behavior.
posted by metasarah at 1:04 PM on January 22, 2020 [1 favorite]
When I'm too exhausted to engage, I'll flat-out say that I don't have the energy for a debate, or that I want to talk about topic X instead. If you have a conversation with this kid (not in-the-moment) explaining in more detail why you will sometimes do that, and explaining why it's not appropriate to try to force people in social situations to talk about something they're not interested in, is that at all helpful?
RE debate teams, YMMV, but in my kid's case it encouraged the behavior.
posted by metasarah at 1:04 PM on January 22, 2020 [1 favorite]
I did not do this exactly, but I did annoy my dad by disagreeing with him about capital punishment. He assigned me book reports. It did not dissuade me but it made me channel my discussions to an appropriate time with better citations. He changed his mind 20 years later, so maybe it was a win-win.
posted by *s at 1:29 PM on January 22, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by *s at 1:29 PM on January 22, 2020 [4 favorites]
Thank you for asking this question, and kudos to the awesome responses. I want to share a "how not to" - a few years ago I rang the parent of one of my students to discuss their disruptive argumentative behaviour. I was absolutely gobsmacked when she said "oh to keep the peace I just let them win." (Kid was trying gross arguments, racist, rapey, ableist, sexist etc.) This student has become well known across the school, not in a good way. (I mean obviously there is more to the story and how they parent, but that vignette explains a lot.)
Thank you for not taking the easy option for momentary peace.
posted by freethefeet at 1:37 PM on January 22, 2020 [5 favorites]
Thank you for not taking the easy option for momentary peace.
posted by freethefeet at 1:37 PM on January 22, 2020 [5 favorites]
Also, why not guide Teen to start a Medium account so they can braindump as they please without demanding emotional labour of others? Not dismissive, but constructive.
posted by blerghamot at 2:27 PM on January 22, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by blerghamot at 2:27 PM on January 22, 2020 [1 favorite]
In the midst of otherwise pleasant social interaction, say eating breakfast, teen will launch into a heartfelt impassioned lecture on topic A. Topic A is almost never something that anyone else was discussing. Next, someone will offer a counter position, or mostly agree with some caveats.
I’ll use this as a jump-off for my response. It seems that teen interrupts mundane conversations with something that preoccupies them, and then gets INSTANTLY shut down – counter position or caveats. The way you describe it, it sounds to me like you really resent the teen (they interrupt innocuous social pleasantries with too much passion and then don’t immediately let the subject drop when corrected) and the immediate response after their contribution is to shut them down, with no space allowed for more positive interaction – agreeing, asking further questions, etc.
Imagine that this happened to you – you have something that preoccupies you, talk about it, and the first response is dismissive. I don’t know how this would affect you and what you would do, but I know very well that here on Metafilter this very scenario is frequently (and rightly) decried – though, in fairness, this mostly happens when it is men doing it to women.
I don’t understand why in these cases the teen HAS to be corrected right out of the gate and I’m not sure what part of the dynamic is being objected to. Do you dislike the fact that they are interrupting the low-stakes but pleasant existing conversation? That they are impassioned? That they are factually wrong? That they don’t take the insta-correction meekly? Ask yourself why you seen the teen’s contributions to the conversation as interruptions – do they not have the right to contribute like everybody else around the table? Does everybody else have the right to set the topic and tone of the conversation, but not the teen?
What about if you (plural you – whoever is present for this) allow the teen their space? Ex:
Teen: Did you know that the Sphynx was not built by ancient Egyptians, but by a much older civilisation instead, which disappeared during the Younger Dryas?
You: Oh (look interested). Tell me more…
Teen: Bla, bla, bla.
You: Interesting. Where did you read that?
Teen: Actually, I saw a video on Youtube that showed xyz.
You: Hm, can you send me the link? I’d be curious to see what research they are referencing. Do you have any links to articles discussing the hypothesis?
Teen: It’s not a hypothesis – it’s fact! Conventional academia blocks research on this, but something-or-other conclusively shows that academia is full of shit blab la.
You: You’re right that academic research can move really slowly and that sometimes it can be coloured by all-to-human jealously and arrogance and what have you. But that’s the beauty of painstaking research - evidence keeps accruing despite these human failings until sometimes new theories make it into the mainstream ‘truth’. And I’m really curious to see the research on this – it’s quite an exciting theory! Can you pass me the butter, please?
Or, if you (again, plural you), don’t want to have the conversation at the breakfast table, STILL be interested, but less engaged and more non-committal, and tell them that you are keen to have an engaged conversation with them at a different point in time.
I’m not sure what this teen is to you, but I assume you are an adult and, if you are with them at breakfast, they are a child, grandchild, or sibling – so someone close. And as an authority figure it is actually your job to stimulate this teen’s curiosity, engagement, research and critical thinking skills, social graces, but also to bond with them and cultivate a sense of pride, accomplishment, and self-esteem in them. Cutting them down and treating them as an annoyance, a burden, and the spanner in the works of your pleasant social interactions is going to be very destructive.
My father was a great one for ‘correcting me’ and ‘teaching me boundaries’ in this fashion, as were most of my teachers. The result? I’m a 46-year-old woman who has long been afraid to speak up, have learned to shut up when ‘talking’ to my betters (and let me tell you, this kind of treatment in adolescence imprints you with the idea that everybody is your better in pretty much every situation), have learned to not trust my judgement, have NOT learned anything about critical thinking other than what I managed to glean for myself, have learned to mistrust everybody around me, have (correctly) learned that those nearest and dearest are not to be trusted and cannot wait to cut you down, etc – you get the drift. My career has stumbled for a couple of decades despite some substantial ‘privileges’ (not financial or social), and my personal life is in shambles. I’ve learned plenty about boundaries – that others are all ‘boundary’ while I have none and am invisible (or else a nuisance).
I am honestly horrified by some of the responses you are getting here; I don’t think I’ve seen a more triggering set of answers here and am seriously considering closing my account over this.
posted by doggod at 2:41 PM on January 22, 2020 [6 favorites]
I’ll use this as a jump-off for my response. It seems that teen interrupts mundane conversations with something that preoccupies them, and then gets INSTANTLY shut down – counter position or caveats. The way you describe it, it sounds to me like you really resent the teen (they interrupt innocuous social pleasantries with too much passion and then don’t immediately let the subject drop when corrected) and the immediate response after their contribution is to shut them down, with no space allowed for more positive interaction – agreeing, asking further questions, etc.
Imagine that this happened to you – you have something that preoccupies you, talk about it, and the first response is dismissive. I don’t know how this would affect you and what you would do, but I know very well that here on Metafilter this very scenario is frequently (and rightly) decried – though, in fairness, this mostly happens when it is men doing it to women.
I don’t understand why in these cases the teen HAS to be corrected right out of the gate and I’m not sure what part of the dynamic is being objected to. Do you dislike the fact that they are interrupting the low-stakes but pleasant existing conversation? That they are impassioned? That they are factually wrong? That they don’t take the insta-correction meekly? Ask yourself why you seen the teen’s contributions to the conversation as interruptions – do they not have the right to contribute like everybody else around the table? Does everybody else have the right to set the topic and tone of the conversation, but not the teen?
What about if you (plural you – whoever is present for this) allow the teen their space? Ex:
Teen: Did you know that the Sphynx was not built by ancient Egyptians, but by a much older civilisation instead, which disappeared during the Younger Dryas?
You: Oh (look interested). Tell me more…
Teen: Bla, bla, bla.
You: Interesting. Where did you read that?
Teen: Actually, I saw a video on Youtube that showed xyz.
You: Hm, can you send me the link? I’d be curious to see what research they are referencing. Do you have any links to articles discussing the hypothesis?
Teen: It’s not a hypothesis – it’s fact! Conventional academia blocks research on this, but something-or-other conclusively shows that academia is full of shit blab la.
You: You’re right that academic research can move really slowly and that sometimes it can be coloured by all-to-human jealously and arrogance and what have you. But that’s the beauty of painstaking research - evidence keeps accruing despite these human failings until sometimes new theories make it into the mainstream ‘truth’. And I’m really curious to see the research on this – it’s quite an exciting theory! Can you pass me the butter, please?
Or, if you (again, plural you), don’t want to have the conversation at the breakfast table, STILL be interested, but less engaged and more non-committal, and tell them that you are keen to have an engaged conversation with them at a different point in time.
I’m not sure what this teen is to you, but I assume you are an adult and, if you are with them at breakfast, they are a child, grandchild, or sibling – so someone close. And as an authority figure it is actually your job to stimulate this teen’s curiosity, engagement, research and critical thinking skills, social graces, but also to bond with them and cultivate a sense of pride, accomplishment, and self-esteem in them. Cutting them down and treating them as an annoyance, a burden, and the spanner in the works of your pleasant social interactions is going to be very destructive.
My father was a great one for ‘correcting me’ and ‘teaching me boundaries’ in this fashion, as were most of my teachers. The result? I’m a 46-year-old woman who has long been afraid to speak up, have learned to shut up when ‘talking’ to my betters (and let me tell you, this kind of treatment in adolescence imprints you with the idea that everybody is your better in pretty much every situation), have learned to not trust my judgement, have NOT learned anything about critical thinking other than what I managed to glean for myself, have learned to mistrust everybody around me, have (correctly) learned that those nearest and dearest are not to be trusted and cannot wait to cut you down, etc – you get the drift. My career has stumbled for a couple of decades despite some substantial ‘privileges’ (not financial or social), and my personal life is in shambles. I’ve learned plenty about boundaries – that others are all ‘boundary’ while I have none and am invisible (or else a nuisance).
I am honestly horrified by some of the responses you are getting here; I don’t think I’ve seen a more triggering set of answers here and am seriously considering closing my account over this.
posted by doggod at 2:41 PM on January 22, 2020 [6 favorites]
Response by poster: Thanks everyone for the responses. There are a lot of great ideas and perspectives presented!
For clarity - adults in the household are open to debating, generally, and seek input/thoughts/feelings from kids in the household regularly. Feelings are seen as legitimate, difference is honored, relationships are highly valued. It's not a authoritarian, parents are right because they are adults type set up.
The trickiness with Teen is that they really want to debate things that other people don't really want to debate (often the timing of the discussion (they are prone to interrupting and pivoting to their topic), maybe a conversation that has been had several times before and is played out etc) And they won't let a topic drop, or as mentioned, agree to disagree. The only satisfying outcome, for them, is total agreement with their position. As such, entering into debates with them can be very taxing.
posted by walkinginsunshine at 2:53 PM on January 22, 2020 [4 favorites]
For clarity - adults in the household are open to debating, generally, and seek input/thoughts/feelings from kids in the household regularly. Feelings are seen as legitimate, difference is honored, relationships are highly valued. It's not a authoritarian, parents are right because they are adults type set up.
The trickiness with Teen is that they really want to debate things that other people don't really want to debate (often the timing of the discussion (they are prone to interrupting and pivoting to their topic), maybe a conversation that has been had several times before and is played out etc) And they won't let a topic drop, or as mentioned, agree to disagree. The only satisfying outcome, for them, is total agreement with their position. As such, entering into debates with them can be very taxing.
posted by walkinginsunshine at 2:53 PM on January 22, 2020 [4 favorites]
Well thats just incredibly rude As a parent it is your job to teach your kids social niceties and much more importantly, self awareness, respect for others and empathy. I think you have some good suggestions in this thread to accomplish thay and and a whole lot of projection which I think amounts to fairly bad advice
posted by fshgrl at 4:15 PM on January 22, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by fshgrl at 4:15 PM on January 22, 2020 [1 favorite]
One tactic I think might be nice is to say "well, you tell me what you think my (or other people in the room's) perspective on $issue is, and then we can discuss why that isn't what you think".
Because it sounds to me like the most infuriating part of this is that they are in broadcast mode and failing to acknowledge that the people they're talking to have their own agenda and perspectives.
So yeah, get them to talk about what they think you think and why they think you think it, and it could change their perspective on going full blast with your opinions at people.
posted by ambrosen at 4:26 PM on January 22, 2020 [3 favorites]
Because it sounds to me like the most infuriating part of this is that they are in broadcast mode and failing to acknowledge that the people they're talking to have their own agenda and perspectives.
So yeah, get them to talk about what they think you think and why they think you think it, and it could change their perspective on going full blast with your opinions at people.
posted by ambrosen at 4:26 PM on January 22, 2020 [3 favorites]
why not guide Teen to start a Medium account
Ohh, that's brilliant. Have a bit of a discussion, but when you get tired of it, suggest they write it out and you'll read it. (Then, actually do that, it's not just a smoke screen tactic)
I've been taught all my career, "If you can't write it down, you can't understand it." So true. Half the time I start writing and realize I'm the idiot, problem solved.
Bonus: I bet this problem lasts not much more than a year, if you save all the essays and then have Teen read them after one year. It doesn't take too much being mortified about not only how naive you were in the past, but also how *absolutely sure* you couldn't possibly be wrong, to teach a little caution.
posted by ctmf at 6:16 PM on January 22, 2020 [2 favorites]
Ohh, that's brilliant. Have a bit of a discussion, but when you get tired of it, suggest they write it out and you'll read it. (Then, actually do that, it's not just a smoke screen tactic)
I've been taught all my career, "If you can't write it down, you can't understand it." So true. Half the time I start writing and realize I'm the idiot, problem solved.
Bonus: I bet this problem lasts not much more than a year, if you save all the essays and then have Teen read them after one year. It doesn't take too much being mortified about not only how naive you were in the past, but also how *absolutely sure* you couldn't possibly be wrong, to teach a little caution.
posted by ctmf at 6:16 PM on January 22, 2020 [2 favorites]
While I wasn’t quite at the level of your teen, I was definitely an argumentative high schooler. I questioned everything my parents said and wanted long “discussions” that mostly involved me talking at my mom. She encouraged me to join my high school debate team since I “loved to debate.”
One year of high school debate taught me that what I was doing at home was not actually debating. In order to debate, I needed clear evidence, a plan for presenting said evidence (catalogued on notecards in recipe boxes), and a strong capacity for listening to my opponents’ arguments so I could later refute them.
Through this process, I learned that I actually sucked at actual debating (I quit after that first year) and that what I really wanted was for someone to teach me how to have a great conversation. This was tough as a high schooler because it meant thinking beyond my own little sphere.
I don’t know if any of this resonates with what’s happening in your home - but I’d really encourage your teen to try real life debating. It may change their whole perspective.
posted by WaspEnterprises at 9:47 PM on January 22, 2020 [3 favorites]
One year of high school debate taught me that what I was doing at home was not actually debating. In order to debate, I needed clear evidence, a plan for presenting said evidence (catalogued on notecards in recipe boxes), and a strong capacity for listening to my opponents’ arguments so I could later refute them.
Through this process, I learned that I actually sucked at actual debating (I quit after that first year) and that what I really wanted was for someone to teach me how to have a great conversation. This was tough as a high schooler because it meant thinking beyond my own little sphere.
I don’t know if any of this resonates with what’s happening in your home - but I’d really encourage your teen to try real life debating. It may change their whole perspective.
posted by WaspEnterprises at 9:47 PM on January 22, 2020 [3 favorites]
If you think this is coming from a place of actual interest in the topics he's yelling about, then by all means encourage him to write it all down. In fact "nobody wants to have an argument right now, but we're always interested in hearing what's on your mind, so why don't you write this up for us and we'll discuss it when you're done" is a reasonable response, as is suggesting he learn to do actual skilled argument in a debate club or JSA.
You can suggest these options at the same time as you're teaching him that he cannot just enter a room and unilaterally suck up all the oxygen in it with shoutiness. That's basic social competence.
posted by fingersandtoes at 7:49 AM on January 23, 2020 [2 favorites]
You can suggest these options at the same time as you're teaching him that he cannot just enter a room and unilaterally suck up all the oxygen in it with shoutiness. That's basic social competence.
posted by fingersandtoes at 7:49 AM on January 23, 2020 [2 favorites]
Your teen might be less annoying to other people who are interested in the topic the teen keeps wanting to talk about? I am way out of touch with kid activities, but is there a group they could get involved in at school / in your town / online that cares a lot about whatever that topic is? Sometimes the splash of cold water you need is jumping into a discussion and realizing lots of other people in the world know a lot about it too.
posted by sallybrown at 7:58 AM on January 23, 2020
posted by sallybrown at 7:58 AM on January 23, 2020
I recommend a book called 'Playful Parenting' https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/160909.Playful_Parenting
What I found helpful is thinking about people having an emotional bucket that needs filling. Being a teenager is extremely hard and that emotional bucket gets emptied out all the time. Maybe your teen is asking to have their emotional bucket filled in this particular way. They want to be right and the expert and maybe have people listen completely.
I think it could be an opportunity for connection and for filling this teen up. Even if they are wrong, or you don't agree, maybe you could respond in ways that don't contradict them and allow them some time of pontificating and being the expert. They are asking for you to give them this specific kind of attention and love that they will likely not get anywhere else.
I highly recommend reading the book, because I am not explaining it well. But it has been so helpful to me. And the book does have explanations about why 'letting them win' is good for them (contrary to most of the answers posted on here!)
posted by halehale at 9:39 AM on January 23, 2020 [2 favorites]
What I found helpful is thinking about people having an emotional bucket that needs filling. Being a teenager is extremely hard and that emotional bucket gets emptied out all the time. Maybe your teen is asking to have their emotional bucket filled in this particular way. They want to be right and the expert and maybe have people listen completely.
I think it could be an opportunity for connection and for filling this teen up. Even if they are wrong, or you don't agree, maybe you could respond in ways that don't contradict them and allow them some time of pontificating and being the expert. They are asking for you to give them this specific kind of attention and love that they will likely not get anywhere else.
I highly recommend reading the book, because I am not explaining it well. But it has been so helpful to me. And the book does have explanations about why 'letting them win' is good for them (contrary to most of the answers posted on here!)
posted by halehale at 9:39 AM on January 23, 2020 [2 favorites]
Sounds like kid is craving a lot of attention from you guys - are your schedules off-the-books busy? Maybe a hike in the boonies or something is in order?
But oof. Man would it be tough to not get ruffled in these situations. I've been legit left speechless when I've met peeps who refused to even entertain the idea of agreeing to disagree. Like, how?? Uh, and you guys have determined kid isn't on the spectrum? Just bullheaded?
But yeah, I think it's being modeled really heavily in the media (Ben Shapiro etc.), that you can just drown out any opposing views simply by being fucking persistent. It has got to be confusing to see adults being derpy and famous and peeps just seem to accept straight up lame behavior.
I'd def hit up Kim John Payne's books, he has some really grounded thoughts on kids 'pinging' adults (like a radar) to kind of orient themselves in the world. Makes you kinda reevaluate what might be going on. Hang in there!
posted by speakeasy at 11:49 AM on January 23, 2020
But oof. Man would it be tough to not get ruffled in these situations. I've been legit left speechless when I've met peeps who refused to even entertain the idea of agreeing to disagree. Like, how?? Uh, and you guys have determined kid isn't on the spectrum? Just bullheaded?
But yeah, I think it's being modeled really heavily in the media (Ben Shapiro etc.), that you can just drown out any opposing views simply by being fucking persistent. It has got to be confusing to see adults being derpy and famous and peeps just seem to accept straight up lame behavior.
I'd def hit up Kim John Payne's books, he has some really grounded thoughts on kids 'pinging' adults (like a radar) to kind of orient themselves in the world. Makes you kinda reevaluate what might be going on. Hang in there!
posted by speakeasy at 11:49 AM on January 23, 2020
Late to the party, but it sounds like this is an excellent opportunity to model good social, communication, and debate skills, and you're missing it due to your personal annoyance with the teen's behavior.
Teens are still kids. Their brains are still growing. What your teen is doing is no more inappropriate than a baby crying nonstop at night or a toddler throwing screaming tantrums or a 4 year old asking "why" incessantly or a 7 year old making butt and poop jokes all day long. This is the developmental stage that your teen is at: they are flexing their intellectual capacities, they're working through cognitive paradoxes, they're trying to understand other people, they are attempting to gain relational power through persuasion and gain relational legitimacy as "no longer a kid", by forcing you to take them seriously, etc etc etc. All of these are completely appropriate developmental tasks. To approach it one-dimensionally as "Shut that down before it gets any more obnoxious" would be poor parenting.
Your fed-up-ness is absolutely valid but it shouldn't be the only thing driving your engagement with your teen. Just like your fed-up-ness with a tantruming toddler is perfectly valid but it shouldn't be the only driver of your actions towards the toddler. Please keep your teen's needs in mind.
In concrete terms, this means:
1. Provide appropriate opportunities for your teen to debate you and other family adults whose job it is to raise this teen. This allows you to cordon off the debate hour to a convenient, regular time when everyone is prepared to engage positively with the teen and the teen is prepared for a structured activity with a definite end point. Sunday lunches when everyone's getting dozy or Monday night dinners when everyone's pissed off about the week just having begun --- such times can be much enlivened by a debate, imo!
2. At this allotted time, model respectful debate strategies and enforce basic rules of empathic engagement. For example, now is the time to set the standard that FEELINGS ARE IMPORTANT when one debates with other people, logic alone isn't enough, etc.
3. Welcome your teen DISCUSSING whatever interests them at any and all other times. Even if you find their topics of conversation tiresome and boring, it's your job as parent to suck it up. Your teen is allowed to annoy the pants off of you with their inane obsessions. Sorry. I encourage you to vent to other parents. You will find many kindered souls. As a fellow parent of young people who talk nonstop about the most idiotic shit... my heart goes out to you. We have to remember that this, too, shall pass.
4. You have the power to stop these discussions from turning into debates: hold space for your teen, be curious about them, focus your attention on them entirely without getting tempted to offer your opinion. If your teen asks, "Don't you agree?" you can say, "It's interesting, tell me more!" If absolutely necessary, you can remind them that now isn't the time for debate, but you won't need to say this if you can be disciplined about holding space for your teen. Learn therapisty tools like paraphrasing, redirection, avoiding self-disclosure, saying "Hmm," in an encouraging way, and using silence effectively.
5. If your teen is saying something objectionable, like something racist or sexist, shut it down in a brief, non-shaming way. "Philberta, that's offensive/hurtful/not okay. Let's talk about it after dinner. Bertram, how did your dentist appointment go?" Same goes if your teen is interrupting others or holding forth for far too long. "Philbert, you're interrupting Berta, excuse you," or "Thanks for sharing, Philbert. Have you been thinking about anything interesting, Berta?", or even a meaningful "Ahem," or a raised eyebrow can be the signal to the teen.
Developmental psychologist Donald Winnicott said that one of the most important functions a parent serves is to not be destroyed by our child's attempts to destroy us. Just as we give a rock wall a shove before trusting it enough to lean carelessly on it, our children need to push us with all their strength and find that we have survived in order to be able to trust that we - and, indeed, anyone else - can be trusted and leaned on. Children need to use us like objects in order to grow. Becoming objects and instruments for a child's use is as much a part of parenting as overtly teaching kids things like appropriate social behavior.
It's a fantastic sign that your teen trusts you enough to test their intellectual and argumentative skills out on you. The harder your teen works to bring you down a notch and "destroy" you, the more they will, and do, trust you. Your job is to not be destroyed, i.e. not lose your cool, not retaliate against them (by shaming them or acting out your anger and annoyance in some other way), set appropriate limits, maintain your personal integrity (i.e. don't agree just to appease them), and continuing to love and support them through this stage.
Just by surviving, you will have won. And so will they.
posted by MiraK at 11:26 AM on February 10, 2020 [2 favorites]
Teens are still kids. Their brains are still growing. What your teen is doing is no more inappropriate than a baby crying nonstop at night or a toddler throwing screaming tantrums or a 4 year old asking "why" incessantly or a 7 year old making butt and poop jokes all day long. This is the developmental stage that your teen is at: they are flexing their intellectual capacities, they're working through cognitive paradoxes, they're trying to understand other people, they are attempting to gain relational power through persuasion and gain relational legitimacy as "no longer a kid", by forcing you to take them seriously, etc etc etc. All of these are completely appropriate developmental tasks. To approach it one-dimensionally as "Shut that down before it gets any more obnoxious" would be poor parenting.
Your fed-up-ness is absolutely valid but it shouldn't be the only thing driving your engagement with your teen. Just like your fed-up-ness with a tantruming toddler is perfectly valid but it shouldn't be the only driver of your actions towards the toddler. Please keep your teen's needs in mind.
In concrete terms, this means:
1. Provide appropriate opportunities for your teen to debate you and other family adults whose job it is to raise this teen. This allows you to cordon off the debate hour to a convenient, regular time when everyone is prepared to engage positively with the teen and the teen is prepared for a structured activity with a definite end point. Sunday lunches when everyone's getting dozy or Monday night dinners when everyone's pissed off about the week just having begun --- such times can be much enlivened by a debate, imo!
2. At this allotted time, model respectful debate strategies and enforce basic rules of empathic engagement. For example, now is the time to set the standard that FEELINGS ARE IMPORTANT when one debates with other people, logic alone isn't enough, etc.
3. Welcome your teen DISCUSSING whatever interests them at any and all other times. Even if you find their topics of conversation tiresome and boring, it's your job as parent to suck it up. Your teen is allowed to annoy the pants off of you with their inane obsessions. Sorry. I encourage you to vent to other parents. You will find many kindered souls. As a fellow parent of young people who talk nonstop about the most idiotic shit... my heart goes out to you. We have to remember that this, too, shall pass.
4. You have the power to stop these discussions from turning into debates: hold space for your teen, be curious about them, focus your attention on them entirely without getting tempted to offer your opinion. If your teen asks, "Don't you agree?" you can say, "It's interesting, tell me more!" If absolutely necessary, you can remind them that now isn't the time for debate, but you won't need to say this if you can be disciplined about holding space for your teen. Learn therapisty tools like paraphrasing, redirection, avoiding self-disclosure, saying "Hmm," in an encouraging way, and using silence effectively.
5. If your teen is saying something objectionable, like something racist or sexist, shut it down in a brief, non-shaming way. "Philberta, that's offensive/hurtful/not okay. Let's talk about it after dinner. Bertram, how did your dentist appointment go?" Same goes if your teen is interrupting others or holding forth for far too long. "Philbert, you're interrupting Berta, excuse you," or "Thanks for sharing, Philbert. Have you been thinking about anything interesting, Berta?", or even a meaningful "Ahem," or a raised eyebrow can be the signal to the teen.
Developmental psychologist Donald Winnicott said that one of the most important functions a parent serves is to not be destroyed by our child's attempts to destroy us. Just as we give a rock wall a shove before trusting it enough to lean carelessly on it, our children need to push us with all their strength and find that we have survived in order to be able to trust that we - and, indeed, anyone else - can be trusted and leaned on. Children need to use us like objects in order to grow. Becoming objects and instruments for a child's use is as much a part of parenting as overtly teaching kids things like appropriate social behavior.
It's a fantastic sign that your teen trusts you enough to test their intellectual and argumentative skills out on you. The harder your teen works to bring you down a notch and "destroy" you, the more they will, and do, trust you. Your job is to not be destroyed, i.e. not lose your cool, not retaliate against them (by shaming them or acting out your anger and annoyance in some other way), set appropriate limits, maintain your personal integrity (i.e. don't agree just to appease them), and continuing to love and support them through this stage.
Just by surviving, you will have won. And so will they.
posted by MiraK at 11:26 AM on February 10, 2020 [2 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
Introduce teen to Logical Fallacies, so they can make better, more logical arguments. And to basic Manners, because interrupting and speechifying are rude in conversation. Unwillingness to accept that other people have legitimate alternate beliefs and move on is not cool. You have a strong opinion, but talking over others is not okay. Please listen at least as politely as others have listened to you.
Is teen spending time in ugly dark places on the Internet? I'd have no qualms about monitoring via the router, and blocking the chans and the worst reddit subs, etc. They are toxic, foul and cause harm. If teen's behavior is oppositional in other ways, keep an eye on it for future response.
posted by theora55 at 7:18 AM on January 22, 2020 [23 favorites]