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March 10, 2006 11:21 AM Subscribe
Who owns the posts to Internet forums? I know someone who produced and acted in a one-woman show in which she "performed" weird stuff she found on Usenet. She claimed this was legal. Was it?
For that matter, who owns all my Metafilter posts? Me? Matt? Public Domain? What if I publish a book that quotes from an anonymous message-board? There's no way I can get permission to use this quote (let's assume I post to be board, asking for permission, but never hear anything back). Can I safely use the quote?
For that matter, who owns all my Metafilter posts? Me? Matt? Public Domain? What if I publish a book that quotes from an anonymous message-board? There's no way I can get permission to use this quote (let's assume I post to be board, asking for permission, but never hear anything back). Can I safely use the quote?
Response by poster: Well, that answers that then. Never noticed that. Thanks. What about other sites? What if there's no notice at all on the site? (By the way, I'm mostly interested in US law, but I'm fine with international answers, too.)
posted by grumblebee at 11:27 AM on March 10, 2006
posted by grumblebee at 11:27 AM on March 10, 2006
10 Big Myths about copyright
3) "If it's posted to Usenet it's in the public domain."
False. Nothing modern and creative is in the public domain anymore unless the owner explicitly puts it in the public domain(*). Explicitly, as in you have a note from the author/owner saying, "I grant this to the public domain." Those exact words or words very much like them.
posted by ducksauce at 11:35 AM on March 10, 2006
3) "If it's posted to Usenet it's in the public domain."
False. Nothing modern and creative is in the public domain anymore unless the owner explicitly puts it in the public domain(*). Explicitly, as in you have a note from the author/owner saying, "I grant this to the public domain." Those exact words or words very much like them.
posted by ducksauce at 11:35 AM on March 10, 2006
Oh, and you mentioned something about US versus international copyright law. This page lists which nations follow the various copyright treaties:
copyright treaty table
The page also has links to the treaty texts.
posted by ducksauce at 11:37 AM on March 10, 2006
copyright treaty table
The page also has links to the treaty texts.
posted by ducksauce at 11:37 AM on March 10, 2006
What if I publish a book that quotes from an anonymous message-board?
This happened in Japan with the book Densha Otoko. It was basically a reprinting of posts on the anonymous 2ch message board. The compiler of the book remained anonymous. I have no idea who actually got the money from it, but the original posters sure didn't, as they were all anonymous.
posted by zsazsa at 11:43 AM on March 10, 2006
This happened in Japan with the book Densha Otoko. It was basically a reprinting of posts on the anonymous 2ch message board. The compiler of the book remained anonymous. I have no idea who actually got the money from it, but the original posters sure didn't, as they were all anonymous.
posted by zsazsa at 11:43 AM on March 10, 2006
great link ducksauce, though I thought I was going to a side-by-side comparisson of the different treaty terms, heh.
posted by nomisxid at 11:44 AM on March 10, 2006
posted by nomisxid at 11:44 AM on March 10, 2006
In the US, an author has a copyright interest in a creative work as soon as it is fixed in a tangible medium (generally.) In the absence of some other agreement, a poster retains the copyright in her post.
Now, a site owner (e.g. mathowie) could require all posters to click a clickwrap license that grants the forum-owner the right to republish forum posts. If the posts are made by an employee in the course of her regular work (such as an employee representing her employer on an official support forum), then the posts could be considered a work-for-hire and the employer would hold any copyright.
posted by andrewraff at 11:52 AM on March 10, 2006
Now, a site owner (e.g. mathowie) could require all posters to click a clickwrap license that grants the forum-owner the right to republish forum posts. If the posts are made by an employee in the course of her regular work (such as an employee representing her employer on an official support forum), then the posts could be considered a work-for-hire and the employer would hold any copyright.
posted by andrewraff at 11:52 AM on March 10, 2006
What about other sites? What if there's no notice at all on the site?
Talking about websites, the default rights are usually controlled by the site owner. Most websites have a terms of service that says once you contribute something to the site, the owner can do with that as they please. I added the copyright to authors here purposely, so that people reprinting in books had to email everyone that made the posts (which has happened successfully a few times in printed books).
For usenet, the original author of the post has copyright, but the chances that someone would be caught doing theater from random posts is slim. If the original authors found out, they'd be well within their rights to ask for something from the unauthorized commercial exploitation of their work.
posted by mathowie at 11:55 AM on March 10, 2006
Talking about websites, the default rights are usually controlled by the site owner. Most websites have a terms of service that says once you contribute something to the site, the owner can do with that as they please. I added the copyright to authors here purposely, so that people reprinting in books had to email everyone that made the posts (which has happened successfully a few times in printed books).
For usenet, the original author of the post has copyright, but the chances that someone would be caught doing theater from random posts is slim. If the original authors found out, they'd be well within their rights to ask for something from the unauthorized commercial exploitation of their work.
posted by mathowie at 11:55 AM on March 10, 2006
grumblebee: For that matter, who owns all my Metafilter posts? Me? Matt? Public Domain? What if I publish a book that quotes from an anonymous message-board? There's no way I can get permission to use this quote (let's assume I post to be board, asking for permission, but never hear anything back). Can I safely use the quote?
Well, it's complex. To break down the questions.
1: You own your Metafilter posts unless you agreed to a TOS that gives copyright to another person or group.
2: Quoting usually falls under "fair use" depending on the nature of the source material and the quote in context. For example, you probably couldn't sue me for copying and pasting your paragraph in this discussion because it is a) transformative in the sense of using your text to build commentary on an issue, b) already published and related to the dissemination of facts and information, c) a minimal selection of text and d) probably does not deprive you of income.
Your friend's transformation of usenet posts into a one-act play might be fair use, but would be pushing it. A "best of Metafilter" book probably would fail a "fair use" test. But an academic study of Metafilter that quoted posts probably would.
However:
3: Most people never bother to register their messages. Registration is required to bring a lawsuit under U.S. copyright law (although you can register just before filing) and registration within 3 months of publication is required to recover more than actual damages. So suing someone for quoting a usenet or Metafilter message is likely throwing good money after bad. (Although the injunction on future publication may be worth it.)
posted by KirkJobSluder at 12:38 PM on March 10, 2006
Well, it's complex. To break down the questions.
1: You own your Metafilter posts unless you agreed to a TOS that gives copyright to another person or group.
2: Quoting usually falls under "fair use" depending on the nature of the source material and the quote in context. For example, you probably couldn't sue me for copying and pasting your paragraph in this discussion because it is a) transformative in the sense of using your text to build commentary on an issue, b) already published and related to the dissemination of facts and information, c) a minimal selection of text and d) probably does not deprive you of income.
Your friend's transformation of usenet posts into a one-act play might be fair use, but would be pushing it. A "best of Metafilter" book probably would fail a "fair use" test. But an academic study of Metafilter that quoted posts probably would.
However:
3: Most people never bother to register their messages. Registration is required to bring a lawsuit under U.S. copyright law (although you can register just before filing) and registration within 3 months of publication is required to recover more than actual damages. So suing someone for quoting a usenet or Metafilter message is likely throwing good money after bad. (Although the injunction on future publication may be worth it.)
posted by KirkJobSluder at 12:38 PM on March 10, 2006
KirkJobSluder is mostly correct, but a transformation of an entire usenet post into a one-act play is in no imaginable way "fair use".
posted by Justinian at 1:26 PM on March 10, 2006
posted by Justinian at 1:26 PM on March 10, 2006
Response by poster: Isn't there some clause in copyright law that says I have to make a reasonable attempt to get permission? What happens if, say, try to get permission and fail. I don't mean you get denied. I mean you don't hear back one way or the other? Are you protected or not.
For instance, let's say I decided to write a book about Craigslist "romance" posts. I write to someone, asking if I can use his "swm seeking sbf" post (via his anon Craigslist email address) and the mail bounces back to me. So I put an add on Craigslist, stating my intention and asking him to grant me permission. I never hear anything. Is it safe for me publish?
Thanks for all the great info!
posted by grumblebee at 2:09 PM on March 10, 2006
For instance, let's say I decided to write a book about Craigslist "romance" posts. I write to someone, asking if I can use his "swm seeking sbf" post (via his anon Craigslist email address) and the mail bounces back to me. So I put an add on Craigslist, stating my intention and asking him to grant me permission. I never hear anything. Is it safe for me publish?
Thanks for all the great info!
posted by grumblebee at 2:09 PM on March 10, 2006
Isn't there some clause in copyright law that says I have to make a reasonable attempt to get permission? What happens if, say, try to get permission and fail. I don't mean you get denied. I mean you don't hear back one way or the other? Are you protected or not.
No. Although there is a new Copyright Office Report regarding Orphan Works. There is much resistance to the recommendations in the Report from many fronts. The last hypothetical you propose is not exactly an orphan works problem. Orphan works specifically refer to works where the rights holder is unknown, unlike your example. Regardless, the orphan works report is merely a suggestion by the Office, it is not law, and most likely will not become law, at least in its current form.
posted by anathema at 3:04 PM on March 10, 2006
No. Although there is a new Copyright Office Report regarding Orphan Works. There is much resistance to the recommendations in the Report from many fronts. The last hypothetical you propose is not exactly an orphan works problem. Orphan works specifically refer to works where the rights holder is unknown, unlike your example. Regardless, the orphan works report is merely a suggestion by the Office, it is not law, and most likely will not become law, at least in its current form.
posted by anathema at 3:04 PM on March 10, 2006
grumblebee: For instance, let's say I decided to write a book about Craigslist "romance" posts. I write to someone, asking if I can use his "swm seeking sbf" post (via his anon Craigslist email address) and the mail bounces back to me. So I put an add on Craigslist, stating my intention and asking him to grant me permission. I never hear anything. Is it safe for me publish?
If your use of the post falls under "fair use" you should but you don't have to ask for permission from a copyright standpoint. This would apply if you are doing some form of Computer-Mediated Communication research, or quoting as part of news and analysis.
Whether you are obligated to ask permission from an ethical standpoint is another complex question.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 7:45 AM on March 11, 2006
If your use of the post falls under "fair use" you should but you don't have to ask for permission from a copyright standpoint. This would apply if you are doing some form of Computer-Mediated Communication research, or quoting as part of news and analysis.
Whether you are obligated to ask permission from an ethical standpoint is another complex question.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 7:45 AM on March 11, 2006
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by Plutor at 11:24 AM on March 10, 2006