How much of a "legal liability" is my hedge?
December 3, 2019 7:35 PM Subscribe
I live in a California suburban area which has some knee-jerk stepford tendencies. Our house has a cactus hedge (no sharp pokey things but it is a euphorbia, so has sap which can cause mild skin irritation and definitely is not fun if dabbed in ones eye or ingested). Everyone else on our street has cookie cutter green leafy hedges. A passerby stopped by today to tell us that our cactus hedge is a "legal liability" and we should just tear it out and replace it with a leafy hedge. Do we actually have anything to worry about from a "legal liability" standpoint?
I had a neighbor growing up who wouldn't clean snow off his sidewalk because "people would sue" and am trying to be reasonable but common sense. It takes breaking off pieces of the cactus to get sap to come out, and doesn't in my experience happen unless you try to break off pieces of cactus.
If it matters, we have good homeowners insurance. I know you are not my lawyer, I am just trying to figure out if we should put money into tearing our a mature and attractive hedge or if I can safely ignore my half mile away helpful neighbor's advise.
I had a neighbor growing up who wouldn't clean snow off his sidewalk because "people would sue" and am trying to be reasonable but common sense. It takes breaking off pieces of the cactus to get sap to come out, and doesn't in my experience happen unless you try to break off pieces of cactus.
If it matters, we have good homeowners insurance. I know you are not my lawyer, I am just trying to figure out if we should put money into tearing our a mature and attractive hedge or if I can safely ignore my half mile away helpful neighbor's advise.
I am not a lawyer.
I would not concerned about the potential of someone breaking off a piece of your hedge with uncovered arms and then trying to justify their minor skin irritation as a significant harm to a judge. I think that falls in the same sort of category as someone having stomach irritation from accidentally ingesting the paint on the side of your house.
posted by saeculorum at 7:46 PM on December 3, 2019 [9 favorites]
I would not concerned about the potential of someone breaking off a piece of your hedge with uncovered arms and then trying to justify their minor skin irritation as a significant harm to a judge. I think that falls in the same sort of category as someone having stomach irritation from accidentally ingesting the paint on the side of your house.
posted by saeculorum at 7:46 PM on December 3, 2019 [9 favorites]
Your neighbors should not be rubbing themselves on your hedge. Your hedge is on your property- why are they trespassing? Phbbbbt. Ignore the nosy Parker.
posted by kerf at 7:52 PM on December 3, 2019 [7 favorites]
posted by kerf at 7:52 PM on December 3, 2019 [7 favorites]
I wonder what they say to neighbors with thorned rose bushes? No need to change based on a random neighbor comment. Maybe your plant is more efficient with water and less of a fire hazard...
posted by childofTethys at 7:52 PM on December 3, 2019 [3 favorites]
posted by childofTethys at 7:52 PM on December 3, 2019 [3 favorites]
I removed a volunteer euphorbia from our backyard, but we have small children who play in the yard under loose supervision and a family history of skin reactions to weird things. Also, it was right near our strawberry plants, so not a good combo even aesthetically. ;) ( Also volunteers near the strawberries: foxglove and nightshade. So I was kind of in BURN IT ALL mode)
If it was in the front yard, even bordering a sidewalk, I'd leave it. For what it's worth, my understanding is that the eye damage can be serious, but I might be wrong.
posted by WowLookStars at 7:54 PM on December 3, 2019 [3 favorites]
If it was in the front yard, even bordering a sidewalk, I'd leave it. For what it's worth, my understanding is that the eye damage can be serious, but I might be wrong.
posted by WowLookStars at 7:54 PM on December 3, 2019 [3 favorites]
If it matters, we have good homeowners insurance. Then you're done. Run it by your agent if you want to confirm your liability coverage is high enough.
posted by JimN2TAW at 7:56 PM on December 3, 2019 [3 favorites]
posted by JimN2TAW at 7:56 PM on December 3, 2019 [3 favorites]
I don't think that's a reasonable way to deal with what must be a gorgeous hedge. People have extrememly poisonous oleander in their yards and there are lots of plants that have saps that can be caustic. Ripping out every plant that could cause an issue under unusual circumstances isn't the best approach. Your hedge might cause some people irritation if they don't wash the sap from a broken branch off quickly. It's not like you have overgrown poison oak as a hedge.
posted by quince at 8:51 PM on December 3, 2019 [9 favorites]
posted by quince at 8:51 PM on December 3, 2019 [9 favorites]
> wouldn't clean snow off his sidewalk because "people would sue"
FWIW that is a common excuse here in Missouri where cleaning sidewalks is generally not required by cities (meaning that hardly anyone actually clears their sidewalk) and the occasional person has won a lawsuit when they slipped and fell on a walkway that had been cleared.
If you actually read the details of the lawsuit, though, beyond the inflammatory headlines that read something like "Diligent snow-shoveling property owner forced to $1 million when careless pedestrian falls on shoveled walkway!!!!11!" you find out that the award was never because of a reasonable attempt at clearing a sidewalk.
Rather, it is usually someone who cleared off a bit of snow--which would have been a mild hazard to walk in--and then neglected to take ordinary care by spreading some ice melt over the cleared area.
In our part of the country, if you clear the snow but then don't spread snowmelt, you will invariably get a thin sheet of ice on the cleared portion that is indeed far, far more dangerous for walking than a couple of inches of snow would have been.
So, everyone with half a brain knows this and spreads out a bit of ice melt after shoveling.
If you're not smart enough to actually leave the sidewalk safer when you're done than when you started, and someone walks on the dangerous area that you created and injures themselves, then yes your homeowners insurance will probably have to pay their medical bills.
This isn't surprising.
Generally speaking, people can be held liable when they create dangerous conditions and those dangerous conditions injure someone--especially if they know or should have known about the danger they were creating.
That was a long story but here is the moral: Don't panic and change what you are doing because someone somewhere said there was a lawsuit or even because there was an actual lawsuit.
Change what you are doing if it actually does create a significant hazard to passersby or your neighbors.
And whatever you do, don't take positive steps to make a minor hazard far worse than it was before.
posted by flug at 8:59 PM on December 3, 2019 [3 favorites]
FWIW that is a common excuse here in Missouri where cleaning sidewalks is generally not required by cities (meaning that hardly anyone actually clears their sidewalk) and the occasional person has won a lawsuit when they slipped and fell on a walkway that had been cleared.
If you actually read the details of the lawsuit, though, beyond the inflammatory headlines that read something like "Diligent snow-shoveling property owner forced to $1 million when careless pedestrian falls on shoveled walkway!!!!11!" you find out that the award was never because of a reasonable attempt at clearing a sidewalk.
Rather, it is usually someone who cleared off a bit of snow--which would have been a mild hazard to walk in--and then neglected to take ordinary care by spreading some ice melt over the cleared area.
In our part of the country, if you clear the snow but then don't spread snowmelt, you will invariably get a thin sheet of ice on the cleared portion that is indeed far, far more dangerous for walking than a couple of inches of snow would have been.
So, everyone with half a brain knows this and spreads out a bit of ice melt after shoveling.
If you're not smart enough to actually leave the sidewalk safer when you're done than when you started, and someone walks on the dangerous area that you created and injures themselves, then yes your homeowners insurance will probably have to pay their medical bills.
This isn't surprising.
Generally speaking, people can be held liable when they create dangerous conditions and those dangerous conditions injure someone--especially if they know or should have known about the danger they were creating.
That was a long story but here is the moral: Don't panic and change what you are doing because someone somewhere said there was a lawsuit or even because there was an actual lawsuit.
Change what you are doing if it actually does create a significant hazard to passersby or your neighbors.
And whatever you do, don't take positive steps to make a minor hazard far worse than it was before.
posted by flug at 8:59 PM on December 3, 2019 [3 favorites]
I’ll add a vigorous vote to the “ignore your neighbor” column. Your cactus hedge sounds beautiful and climate appropriate. You should tell him that having plants that need to be watered in our drought-prone state is irresponsible.
posted by amaire at 10:29 PM on December 3, 2019 [6 favorites]
posted by amaire at 10:29 PM on December 3, 2019 [6 favorites]
I'm not seeing how you could get rid of it without exposing yourself to legal liability.
You definitely couldn't hire your local landscaping business to tear it out; whoever did so would need protective gear and training, and I'd think you might need a lawyer to assure that you weren't liable for any injuries the crew might sustain no matter what the crew told you. And then how would they dispose of it? No one who knew what they were doing would burn it, I'd think, and an ordinary landfill might well and for good reason reject it as hazardous waste.
posted by jamjam at 12:12 AM on December 4, 2019 [1 favorite]
You definitely couldn't hire your local landscaping business to tear it out; whoever did so would need protective gear and training, and I'd think you might need a lawyer to assure that you weren't liable for any injuries the crew might sustain no matter what the crew told you. And then how would they dispose of it? No one who knew what they were doing would burn it, I'd think, and an ordinary landfill might well and for good reason reject it as hazardous waste.
posted by jamjam at 12:12 AM on December 4, 2019 [1 favorite]
I'm not seeing how you could get rid of it without exposing yourself to legal liability.
IANAL but my understanding is that this is why you hire licensed contractors and check their workers' comp insurance. If you pick up two day laborers from the sidewalk outside Home Depot, you would be liable for injuries they might sustain.
posted by slidell at 12:27 AM on December 4, 2019 [3 favorites]
IANAL but my understanding is that this is why you hire licensed contractors and check their workers' comp insurance. If you pick up two day laborers from the sidewalk outside Home Depot, you would be liable for injuries they might sustain.
posted by slidell at 12:27 AM on December 4, 2019 [3 favorites]
Personally I wouldn't worry about this unless you feel like its placement is such that someone might come in contact with it accidentally. But if it's right by a sidewalk where two year olds toddle along touching everything and then rubbing their faces, it might be worth removing it.
posted by slidell at 12:30 AM on December 4, 2019
posted by slidell at 12:30 AM on December 4, 2019
From NZ here, but I would ignore passers by. I've been involved (I'm a non-registered landscape architect) in a few cases where someone wanted a hedge or tree removed for less than rational reasons.
If there is nothing you can do to educate the passer by, or elucidate what they mean, you can only AFAIK wait for a formal letter\removal order. If your hedge is valuable (and it sounds like it is adding value to your property) It would be worth challenging the latter\order - here in NZ a landscape architect or licensed arborists' stated opinion would normally settle the matter on your behalf.
posted by unearthed at 12:40 AM on December 4, 2019 [1 favorite]
If there is nothing you can do to educate the passer by, or elucidate what they mean, you can only AFAIK wait for a formal letter\removal order. If your hedge is valuable (and it sounds like it is adding value to your property) It would be worth challenging the latter\order - here in NZ a landscape architect or licensed arborists' stated opinion would normally settle the matter on your behalf.
posted by unearthed at 12:40 AM on December 4, 2019 [1 favorite]
There’s a pretty good chance leafy hedges in California are oleander, which is more poisonous than most spurges. Quite a lot of ‘landscaping plants’ are mildly toxic because people like the effect of built-in pesticide.
posted by clew at 12:42 AM on December 4, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by clew at 12:42 AM on December 4, 2019 [2 favorites]
I’d put up a big warning sign to rub it in the neighbor’s nosy face. Like “warning: toxic shrubbery, trespass at your own risk.”
There, liability and nosy neighbor handled.
But then I can be an asshole sometimes.
posted by spitbull at 5:11 AM on December 4, 2019
There, liability and nosy neighbor handled.
But then I can be an asshole sometimes.
posted by spitbull at 5:11 AM on December 4, 2019
Is there a local homeowner's association or something similar? Sometimes these actually have the power to be troublesome. If EVERYBODY except you has the same kind of hedge, it may have been mandated. If you're not sure, your deed will have language about the homeowner's association (if there is one) and the extent of its control.
posted by ubiquity at 7:30 AM on December 4, 2019
posted by ubiquity at 7:30 AM on December 4, 2019
My opinion of CA is soured because a comment in passing just like this is so incredibly common, and i'm just a visitor there a few months a year. Like they can't just say "Hi how's the weather" and keep going, it always has to be some insane question about questionable legal liability. I've personally heard the exact same thing about street trees randomly falling in the wind and crushing a passing car, lightly cracked sidewalks, a plastic pool in the front yard, basic grasses (purple fountain grasses) planted everywhere that could be poisonous to dogs, bike lanes, you name it.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:10 AM on December 4, 2019
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:10 AM on December 4, 2019
His small-minded nosy random legal "advice" is silly for many reasons. Smile wanly and assure him that everything is fine and you're satisfied with your hedge. Or go for the Miss Manners "what a curious thing to say!" approach with a bright smile. (In the South, this would be a "bless your heart" moment.)
Not that I think it's worth it to actually argue with him, but what on earth is he imagining the danger to be? If it's the irritant properties of the sap, many people mentioned above that oleander is also highly toxic, as are yew and many other common hedges. If it's the danger of someone getting scratched up, euphorbia is not actually a prickly cactus (as you said) and this is moot anyway as long as it's not impeding a public sidewalk. (Also, holly is a perfectly respectable-yet-prickly hedge shrub.)
If you have a HOA that strictly mandates the varieties of permissible shrubbery and your euphorbia is disallowed, he could rat you out for nonconformity (...if he is even in the same hypothetical euphorbia-disallowing HOA?) But that has nothing to do with legal liability.
(Mostly-irrelevant snow sidenote: In my east-coast city, property owners are required by law to clear snow from their sidewalk, and can indeed be held legally liable for negligence if someone falls and sues. No anti-cactus laws, though.)
posted by desuetude at 8:26 AM on December 4, 2019
Not that I think it's worth it to actually argue with him, but what on earth is he imagining the danger to be? If it's the irritant properties of the sap, many people mentioned above that oleander is also highly toxic, as are yew and many other common hedges. If it's the danger of someone getting scratched up, euphorbia is not actually a prickly cactus (as you said) and this is moot anyway as long as it's not impeding a public sidewalk. (Also, holly is a perfectly respectable-yet-prickly hedge shrub.)
If you have a HOA that strictly mandates the varieties of permissible shrubbery and your euphorbia is disallowed, he could rat you out for nonconformity (...if he is even in the same hypothetical euphorbia-disallowing HOA?) But that has nothing to do with legal liability.
(Mostly-irrelevant snow sidenote: In my east-coast city, property owners are required by law to clear snow from their sidewalk, and can indeed be held legally liable for negligence if someone falls and sues. No anti-cactus laws, though.)
posted by desuetude at 8:26 AM on December 4, 2019
> For what it's worth, my understanding is that the eye damage can be serious, but I might be wrong
A professional landscaper told me a horror story of a coworker of hers going blind for several hours after getting a tiny bit of euphorbia sap in his eye, despite him immediately washing it out. I ripped out the euphorbia in my yard when my kids were small, for that reason. It's such a cool and tempting plant, or at least the ones I had were.
posted by The corpse in the library at 8:48 AM on December 4, 2019 [2 favorites]
A professional landscaper told me a horror story of a coworker of hers going blind for several hours after getting a tiny bit of euphorbia sap in his eye, despite him immediately washing it out. I ripped out the euphorbia in my yard when my kids were small, for that reason. It's such a cool and tempting plant, or at least the ones I had were.
posted by The corpse in the library at 8:48 AM on December 4, 2019 [2 favorites]
We need more information. If the hedge is entirely on your property and cannot be reached without being on your property there would likely be no risk whatsoever. If the hedge borders on a public easement like the road or sidewalk, there could be an issue depending on your state (I have no idea about CA) and a number of other factors that you'd need a competent real estate lawyer to decode. See this article for a rundown on some of the issues.
Personally, I'd ignore the issue until and unless an immediate neighbor objects.
posted by Lame_username at 9:52 AM on December 4, 2019 [1 favorite]
Personally, I'd ignore the issue until and unless an immediate neighbor objects.
posted by Lame_username at 9:52 AM on December 4, 2019 [1 favorite]
« Older Gift idea for a 6-year-old girl about which I know... | Gift ideas for boys/men of many ages Newer »
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by mikek at 7:44 PM on December 3, 2019 [35 favorites]