When your friend makes you feel like you're literally going crazy?
October 17, 2019 8:33 AM Subscribe
I have a friend who experienced sustained interpersonal trauma over several years in childhood. Ninety-seven percent of the time they are one way and three percent of the time they are another way. There must be books about this?
This friend is genuine, loyal, stable, patient, and compassionate, just a great person. I've known them long enough that I can detect a very distinct other way that they can be. There are brief periods of time, perhaps no more than 72 hours, and perhaps 1-3 times per year, where, before I realize what's happening, and sometimes even then, interacting with them literally makes me feel like I'm going crazy.
They maybe do a thing where they're subtly cycling between hot and cold, sometimes minute by minute or even second by second. Or they do fast and subtle non-sequiturs, where I don't realize they're suddenly talking about something related to what we were previously talking about but it's still something else.
At some point, within 5-60 minutes or an interaction, I realize that I'm very anxious and that I "literally feel like I'm going crazy." It seems topic-independent in that I'm always surprised when this happens. It's radically different than my experience of this person 97% of the time.
It does seem to inconsistently maybe happen when either they or me, within the past week or two, have brought up intense personal stuff, which we sometimes do, because it's usually very, very constructive.
It's very distressing when this happens, to the point where it is undermining of all the the other very good and safe interactions we have, so I'm sort of reaching for explanations or understanding. Maybe I can catch it before I'm feeling the way I do or I can better learn to avoid the correct subset of topics. I've talked about it a little bit with them, but it's been very difficult so far because something like denial or deflection maybe happens. They don't point out anything in me or ask me to change anything about my behavior, though I've asked if there's anything I can do differently. I'm not trying to fix them or anything, but I'd like to continue the mutual fun and support we have almost all of the time.
Is there something in the space of transference/countertransference, borderline personality disorder, PTSD, trauma that I can read? I feel like there's probably a lot of possibly relevant books of varying quality that I don't know how to prioritize digging through. Does this sound like a "thing"? How can I be good to myself and them? This is a long-term, valued friendship despite this long-standing pattern, which has started to weigh more heavily in the past year.
This friend is genuine, loyal, stable, patient, and compassionate, just a great person. I've known them long enough that I can detect a very distinct other way that they can be. There are brief periods of time, perhaps no more than 72 hours, and perhaps 1-3 times per year, where, before I realize what's happening, and sometimes even then, interacting with them literally makes me feel like I'm going crazy.
They maybe do a thing where they're subtly cycling between hot and cold, sometimes minute by minute or even second by second. Or they do fast and subtle non-sequiturs, where I don't realize they're suddenly talking about something related to what we were previously talking about but it's still something else.
At some point, within 5-60 minutes or an interaction, I realize that I'm very anxious and that I "literally feel like I'm going crazy." It seems topic-independent in that I'm always surprised when this happens. It's radically different than my experience of this person 97% of the time.
It does seem to inconsistently maybe happen when either they or me, within the past week or two, have brought up intense personal stuff, which we sometimes do, because it's usually very, very constructive.
It's very distressing when this happens, to the point where it is undermining of all the the other very good and safe interactions we have, so I'm sort of reaching for explanations or understanding. Maybe I can catch it before I'm feeling the way I do or I can better learn to avoid the correct subset of topics. I've talked about it a little bit with them, but it's been very difficult so far because something like denial or deflection maybe happens. They don't point out anything in me or ask me to change anything about my behavior, though I've asked if there's anything I can do differently. I'm not trying to fix them or anything, but I'd like to continue the mutual fun and support we have almost all of the time.
Is there something in the space of transference/countertransference, borderline personality disorder, PTSD, trauma that I can read? I feel like there's probably a lot of possibly relevant books of varying quality that I don't know how to prioritize digging through. Does this sound like a "thing"? How can I be good to myself and them? This is a long-term, valued friendship despite this long-standing pattern, which has started to weigh more heavily in the past year.
Without stepping into trying to diagnose this person, there are some therapy-type resources that might help you explore your curiosity. There's an evidence-based branch of therapy, internal family systems (IFS), for instance, that may be useful to you. It can seem a little hokey at times--the language feels a little silly, personally--but it does directly address what you're getting at. Briefly, the notion in IFS is that what we consider our mental "self" may be better understood as a collection of "parts" (which aren't the same as personas or personalities, but close enough). These parts come online at different times for different reasons, and in the case of your friend you really sound like you're describing what it's like when an "exiled" part comes to dominate. If you're interested, this is pretty much the foundational text on the subject.
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 8:51 AM on October 17, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 8:51 AM on October 17, 2019 [2 favorites]
You're looking more for terms like dissociation and depersonalization than BPD, I think.
Your description (with different percentages) certainly describes the experience I have had myself as a multiple* or have experienced with other multiples, particularly non selves-aware multiples. But it can also just be a period of dissociation or depersonalization, or "triggered."
My overall advice is when an interaction is going badly, saying "hey, this isn't going how I'd like. I value our connection a lot, so let's call it a day and I'll give you a shout tomorrow." And then follow through. If you want to talk about how you are treated in those discussions, give it a good two weeks after and then circle back.
If they're a full-out multiple, videotaping them is a last resort but I do know multiples where it's taken that to explain to them that there are times that people in their system are behaving that wildly.
* The thing being, "I" wasn't experiencing it at all.
I can expand on any of this if it would be helpful.
posted by warriorqueen at 8:54 AM on October 17, 2019 [7 favorites]
Your description (with different percentages) certainly describes the experience I have had myself as a multiple* or have experienced with other multiples, particularly non selves-aware multiples. But it can also just be a period of dissociation or depersonalization, or "triggered."
My overall advice is when an interaction is going badly, saying "hey, this isn't going how I'd like. I value our connection a lot, so let's call it a day and I'll give you a shout tomorrow." And then follow through. If you want to talk about how you are treated in those discussions, give it a good two weeks after and then circle back.
If they're a full-out multiple, videotaping them is a last resort but I do know multiples where it's taken that to explain to them that there are times that people in their system are behaving that wildly.
* The thing being, "I" wasn't experiencing it at all.
I can expand on any of this if it would be helpful.
posted by warriorqueen at 8:54 AM on October 17, 2019 [7 favorites]
I have a close friend who sometimes goes through spots where sometimes she's despondent and angry at everything and sometimes she'll even stop speaking to me for a week or two if I don't follow her into the despair, but like... you know, then when she's feeling a bit better she messages and pretty soon we've picked right back up. If you prove through an ongoing pattern of behavior that you will still be there later and that you are only disengaging temporarily, you can just say: I care about you and I need to step away for a bit, I'll check in again soon.
The other side of this is that you seem to have an anxiety problem, even if it doesn't come up very often, and I would encourage you to work on this independently of your feelings about your friend, because it will make the whole process easier. I do still get very anxious about the above when it happens, sometimes, but it used to be full-blown panic attack territory for me, and appropriate anxiety treatment for me has done a lot for my ability to maintain friendships with people who are not always okay.
posted by Sequence at 8:54 AM on October 17, 2019 [4 favorites]
The other side of this is that you seem to have an anxiety problem, even if it doesn't come up very often, and I would encourage you to work on this independently of your feelings about your friend, because it will make the whole process easier. I do still get very anxious about the above when it happens, sometimes, but it used to be full-blown panic attack territory for me, and appropriate anxiety treatment for me has done a lot for my ability to maintain friendships with people who are not always okay.
posted by Sequence at 8:54 AM on October 17, 2019 [4 favorites]
I would say more unfortunately experienced. :) What kanata said may work too!
I came back to say, At some point, within 5-60 minutes or an interaction, I realize that I'm very anxious and that I "literally feel like I'm going crazy." - it's almost certainly not you. I have witnessed other people having this response to me/us, and particularly when I was first doing the work of understanding ourselves I thought back and I could pinpoint times that we were switchy from remembering the looks on people's faces.
I am not armchair diagnosing your friend, just letting you know that your response system is probably picking up on some subtle signals in your friend's demeanour.
posted by warriorqueen at 9:59 AM on October 17, 2019 [5 favorites]
I came back to say, At some point, within 5-60 minutes or an interaction, I realize that I'm very anxious and that I "literally feel like I'm going crazy." - it's almost certainly not you. I have witnessed other people having this response to me/us, and particularly when I was first doing the work of understanding ourselves I thought back and I could pinpoint times that we were switchy from remembering the looks on people's faces.
I am not armchair diagnosing your friend, just letting you know that your response system is probably picking up on some subtle signals in your friend's demeanour.
posted by warriorqueen at 9:59 AM on October 17, 2019 [5 favorites]
One thing to keep on mind here is that if the relationship with your friend is great 97% of the time that's an amazing relationshio! I wish my anxiety let me be 97% normal with my friends. In addition to the good advice about dissociation, I think you might be being a bit perfectionist about the relationship. Anxiety has a way of making me focus on what I'm doing wrong, and it sounds like it's doing that to you.
If your friend says you're doing nothing wrong, and you can't figure out what wrong thing you might be doing, you're doing nothing wrong. When you see your friend enter into this state, you should probably avoid trying to fix it. You can monitor it and make sure they don't do anything harmful, but otherwise there's no actual problem, it will pass like it did before. Reading more first person perspective from others may help you understand what they're feeling, but all you need to actually do is just treat them like your friend and that will help them
posted by JZig at 10:06 AM on October 17, 2019 [4 favorites]
If your friend says you're doing nothing wrong, and you can't figure out what wrong thing you might be doing, you're doing nothing wrong. When you see your friend enter into this state, you should probably avoid trying to fix it. You can monitor it and make sure they don't do anything harmful, but otherwise there's no actual problem, it will pass like it did before. Reading more first person perspective from others may help you understand what they're feeling, but all you need to actually do is just treat them like your friend and that will help them
posted by JZig at 10:06 AM on October 17, 2019 [4 favorites]
How often are you in contact with your friend? I once had a friend who was bipolar but I didn't realize it for years because he disappeared during the downswings. When he was hypo-manic/manic he tended to drink a lot so it was easy to write off his behavior as drunken antics.
Something to think about.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 10:11 AM on October 17, 2019 [3 favorites]
Something to think about.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 10:11 AM on October 17, 2019 [3 favorites]
I am not diagnosing your friend with DID but there are youtube channels hosted by DID systems (often including friends/family members occasionally or frequently) that do a lot of educational videos about the experience of depersonalization/derealization/disassociation and what people close to them can do in those moments. It might be helpful to you - even if your friend is not having exactly this kind of disassociation event but something in the neighborhood, and even if they wouldn't characterize their internal experience in this way - to see other people talking about navigating these situations, how to not take it personally or make it about you.
It certainly sounds like your friend is having episodes of some kind of atypical-to-their-usual psycho-neuro-behavioral activity, whatever the technical silo it might fall into, and one way for you to be a good friend is to maybe keep that a little more top of mind rather than getting surprised repeatedly by a thing that appears to be a fact of life for your friend.
And it may be that the only thing you do differently is a) tread more carefully in these intense subjects and make more conservative decisions, taking your own boundaries into consideration, about stopping or pausing (rather than waiting for them to set a safe boundary for themselves, when they may not be able to) the pursuit of these topics b) let your friend go through whatever processing behavior they experience as a caring companion rather than a participant.
posted by Lyn Never at 10:51 AM on October 17, 2019
It certainly sounds like your friend is having episodes of some kind of atypical-to-their-usual psycho-neuro-behavioral activity, whatever the technical silo it might fall into, and one way for you to be a good friend is to maybe keep that a little more top of mind rather than getting surprised repeatedly by a thing that appears to be a fact of life for your friend.
And it may be that the only thing you do differently is a) tread more carefully in these intense subjects and make more conservative decisions, taking your own boundaries into consideration, about stopping or pausing (rather than waiting for them to set a safe boundary for themselves, when they may not be able to) the pursuit of these topics b) let your friend go through whatever processing behavior they experience as a caring companion rather than a participant.
posted by Lyn Never at 10:51 AM on October 17, 2019
At some point, within 5-60 minutes or an interaction, I realize that I'm very anxious and that I "literally feel like I'm going crazy." It seems topic-independent in that I'm always surprised when this happens. It's radically different than my experience of this person 97% of the time.
It does seem to inconsistently maybe happen when either they or me, within the past week or two, have brought up intense personal stuff, which we sometimes do, because it's usually very, very constructive.
On the off-chance this is helpful, and taking a big step back: is this almost always happening when your friend is speaking critically of you or discussing difficult issues in your interpersonal interactions? Yes, it sounds like something is going on, but I noticed that you are really centering your feelings in these interactions, so I'm also wondering if part of this is that you are somehow getting triggered and you feel extraordinarily sensitive to everything else. Is it possible that their behavior is altering slightly and you are reacting strongly?
posted by bluedaisy at 11:54 AM on October 17, 2019 [5 favorites]
It does seem to inconsistently maybe happen when either they or me, within the past week or two, have brought up intense personal stuff, which we sometimes do, because it's usually very, very constructive.
On the off-chance this is helpful, and taking a big step back: is this almost always happening when your friend is speaking critically of you or discussing difficult issues in your interpersonal interactions? Yes, it sounds like something is going on, but I noticed that you are really centering your feelings in these interactions, so I'm also wondering if part of this is that you are somehow getting triggered and you feel extraordinarily sensitive to everything else. Is it possible that their behavior is altering slightly and you are reacting strongly?
posted by bluedaisy at 11:54 AM on October 17, 2019 [5 favorites]
Part of my ADHD is that my mind can skip from topic to topic and circle back to perfectly pick up a thought I had set down a few minutes ago. If you map it out, and I have, they're perfectly coherent conversations, except I had to take the detour or I'd forget right away.
It sounds like the idea of topic skipping bothers you, but I wasn't crazy... I had a combination of very short working memory and a brain moving at mach 2. It also made emotional regulation hard. I still take incredible pain from almost any negative comment that seems to judge me inherently as a person, but I know if I wait a bit, the pain will fade to a normal amount. It's not disordered emotions, they're valid emotions that people would have if neurotypical, it's the calibration on how much I feel them/can control them briefly. Like a stereo at max volume when the music starts, you rush to jam the volume slider back down.
If someone is making you anxious, we can't really tell you why without observing an interaction, I guess. You don't have to keep being made to feel that way, no matter how good the other interactions are. I'm thankful my friends have put up with me from time to time.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 1:45 PM on October 17, 2019 [2 favorites]
It sounds like the idea of topic skipping bothers you, but I wasn't crazy... I had a combination of very short working memory and a brain moving at mach 2. It also made emotional regulation hard. I still take incredible pain from almost any negative comment that seems to judge me inherently as a person, but I know if I wait a bit, the pain will fade to a normal amount. It's not disordered emotions, they're valid emotions that people would have if neurotypical, it's the calibration on how much I feel them/can control them briefly. Like a stereo at max volume when the music starts, you rush to jam the volume slider back down.
If someone is making you anxious, we can't really tell you why without observing an interaction, I guess. You don't have to keep being made to feel that way, no matter how good the other interactions are. I'm thankful my friends have put up with me from time to time.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 1:45 PM on October 17, 2019 [2 favorites]
Since this is a longstanding, perhaps permanently ingrained trait of theirs, what is it that prevents you from exiting the interaction at the moment you feel them shift into this manner? you can either tell them why ("I feel an uncomfortable tension between us and I think we should talk about this another time" "This feels really weird, let's talk about something else") or not even bother ("So sorry to run out on you, I have to go now, talk to you later.")
Be wary of anyone telling you it can't possibly be partly you and must be all them. It might not be, but of course it could be up to 50 percent you, though not likely more. I do not mean that you are in some way causing it or imagining it, but lots of people would not dream of reacting or interpreting this way, no matter what it is you are dealing with. It could be dissociation. It could be a personality disorder imperfectly controlled. It could also be something very simple, like they're irritated with you for whatever valid or invalid reason and, because of their history of interpersonal trauma, refuse to be overtly nasty or snap at you because of long-conditioned reflexes, and you sense their hostility but react by spinning out and analyzing instead of backing off.
Transference/countertransference readings are a very dangerous place to go, because the theory is very heavily based on the idea that you feeling a certain way about a person tells you what they are feeling, or sometimes what they essentially are like. The problems with this belief system and its potential misuses by even the most well-meaning of laypeople, never mind psychotherapists, are, I hope, apparent. One meaningful idea to take from that mess is that transference never goes only one way; it can't. if someone is projecting something into you, you are doing the same to them. (If.)
posted by queenofbithynia at 8:44 PM on October 17, 2019 [2 favorites]
Be wary of anyone telling you it can't possibly be partly you and must be all them. It might not be, but of course it could be up to 50 percent you, though not likely more. I do not mean that you are in some way causing it or imagining it, but lots of people would not dream of reacting or interpreting this way, no matter what it is you are dealing with. It could be dissociation. It could be a personality disorder imperfectly controlled. It could also be something very simple, like they're irritated with you for whatever valid or invalid reason and, because of their history of interpersonal trauma, refuse to be overtly nasty or snap at you because of long-conditioned reflexes, and you sense their hostility but react by spinning out and analyzing instead of backing off.
Transference/countertransference readings are a very dangerous place to go, because the theory is very heavily based on the idea that you feeling a certain way about a person tells you what they are feeling, or sometimes what they essentially are like. The problems with this belief system and its potential misuses by even the most well-meaning of laypeople, never mind psychotherapists, are, I hope, apparent. One meaningful idea to take from that mess is that transference never goes only one way; it can't. if someone is projecting something into you, you are doing the same to them. (If.)
posted by queenofbithynia at 8:44 PM on October 17, 2019 [2 favorites]
like they're irritated with you for whatever valid or invalid reason and, because of their history of interpersonal trauma, refuse to be overtly nasty or snap at you because of long-conditioned reflexes, and you sense their hostility but react by spinning out and analyzing instead of backing off.
This was the first thing I jumped to, actually. I have a peculiar set of sub-routines when it comes to personal confrontation, involving certain things (moods, behaviors, topics) that dredge up emotional/tactical responses carried over from a complicated childhood.
For instance once in a great while (at this point usually years apart) I'll just go into a stone-faced unresponsive mode partway into a normal conversation, or become hyper-responsive and go into a sort of word-game/segue/prattle mode. I usually only figure out later on exactly what it was that spiked me.
I know it is not a logical response at the time, which contributes to the discomfort. It's a tipping point past which I am no longer able to cycle back to a normal interaction, and just keeping things civil involves a lot of self-control and second-guessing.
This always happens during one-on-one conversation, often on the edge of something that could be an argument but hasn't actually turned into one. On postmortem about half the time it's something I really should just have tried to have a rational argument about, and the other half is just my brain doing its thing.
posted by aspersioncast at 5:02 AM on October 18, 2019
This was the first thing I jumped to, actually. I have a peculiar set of sub-routines when it comes to personal confrontation, involving certain things (moods, behaviors, topics) that dredge up emotional/tactical responses carried over from a complicated childhood.
For instance once in a great while (at this point usually years apart) I'll just go into a stone-faced unresponsive mode partway into a normal conversation, or become hyper-responsive and go into a sort of word-game/segue/prattle mode. I usually only figure out later on exactly what it was that spiked me.
I know it is not a logical response at the time, which contributes to the discomfort. It's a tipping point past which I am no longer able to cycle back to a normal interaction, and just keeping things civil involves a lot of self-control and second-guessing.
This always happens during one-on-one conversation, often on the edge of something that could be an argument but hasn't actually turned into one. On postmortem about half the time it's something I really should just have tried to have a rational argument about, and the other half is just my brain doing its thing.
posted by aspersioncast at 5:02 AM on October 18, 2019
Response by poster: Pondering all of these. Still watching this thread.
posted by zeek321 at 6:46 AM on October 18, 2019
posted by zeek321 at 6:46 AM on October 18, 2019
I think this might have more to do with you than it does to do with your friend, especially since you are severely questioning someone's mental health because on occasion you don't vibe that well. Your friend is allowed to be off/weird/in a mood/funk/tired etc from time to time. I think your framing is off, it's not bad that they don't vibe with you %100 of the time, the problem is that you are allowing it to affect your mental state. This is a sign of codependence. A relationship that is 95% great can still be codependent. Conversations with people should not make you question your own reality, or be extremely distressing. Instead on focusing on her behavior, try focusing on your own. Look at ways to ground yourself, to strengthen your sense of self, and be mindful.
posted by FirstMateKate at 12:01 PM on October 18, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by FirstMateKate at 12:01 PM on October 18, 2019 [2 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
What did you say when you pointed it out, like how did you describe it to them?
posted by fingersandtoes at 8:51 AM on October 17, 2019 [1 favorite]