Dating Question: My dates *never* follow up with me. Is this normal?
August 28, 2019 5:36 AM Subscribe
I [straight youngish male] go on tons of dating app dates that seem to go well and sometimes even turn into a second date. But women never, ever follow up with me on their own volition and I'm wondering if I'm doing something wrong or give off the wrong "vibe".
I've probably been on app dates with roughly 20 or so different women in the past year. I'd say about 75% of these dates go conceivably "good" on paper - we chat over multiple drinks, sometimes even pop over to a different bar or restaurant to keep the night going. Lots of laughter and engaging conversation. Often these dates turn to second or third dates! But after that, either a) a date will agree to another date but then cancel the day of without suggesting a day to reschedule, which I take as them not wanting to go out again or b) If I really want to try and get a gauge on their interest, I'll leave the ball in their court after a second/third date - and will always hear nothing.
I consider myself a pretty self-aware person and try to ask lots of questions/not rant about myself. I maintain good hygiene etc. I try to maintain open body language and eye contact but not creepily so. If the moment seems right, we'll kiss - if not, I'll hold off. I guess what I'm trying to say is, I think - or thought - that I don't suck outright as a date. But I think something may be up, and what really triggered this was some friends who are women talking about how they often will follow up with a guy after a date if they really liked him - they'll text and ask what they are up to next weekend, or send them an inside joke, or a funny gif, or a little "thank you+I had a great time!" text. The point was, they take a little initiative and probe to show some interest. One friend even insisted she always sends a thank you text as courtesy if the guy paid for drinks/dinner - even if she didn't like the guy much! I had an anxious realization that I've never - not once, ever - gotten anything resembling any initiative like that from the women I go out with. If I didn't follow up after these seemingly "good" dates, then there would be complete radio silence.
I guess what I'm wondering is - should I be concerned that women who simply do not follow up with me after a second or even first date just Aren't That Into Me? Do I cut my losses when I don't hear anything? Or am I wrong to leave a ball in anyone's court in this dating landscape where everyone is inundated with options? What's normal/not normal as far as me needing to carry all initiative? Only asking because some kind of proactive follow-up from any of my dates hasn't happened once - not a single time - since I entered the dating app world and it is a bit concerning compared to my friends experiences - there is no "thanks again, had a great time", no text from them taking their turn to ask me out, no "how was your weekend?"-style probing to spark a conversation or another date*. So now I'm wondering for the first time in a long time: Am I ugly? Boring? Do I give off the wrong "vibe"? Or fail to give off the right "vibe"? I don't expect metafilter to answer those questions for me, but I am looking for some ideas on how to close this exhausting cycle I'm stuck in or think about things I might be missing here, because when I reflect on it, these feel like some really bad numbers I'm putting up as volume of dates and successfully capturing someone's REAL interest - or interested enough to reach out to me themselves.
*I also want to note: I get that there are some women out there who are still socialized to "let the man do all of the courting"/don't want to come off as "needy" (which I think is antiquated nonsense in these modern times, but understand if some people still have this instilled). But I'd be shocked if *every* single person I went out with still subscribes to this mentality in 2019! I also live in a large liberal city. So how much should I be reading into all of this?
I've probably been on app dates with roughly 20 or so different women in the past year. I'd say about 75% of these dates go conceivably "good" on paper - we chat over multiple drinks, sometimes even pop over to a different bar or restaurant to keep the night going. Lots of laughter and engaging conversation. Often these dates turn to second or third dates! But after that, either a) a date will agree to another date but then cancel the day of without suggesting a day to reschedule, which I take as them not wanting to go out again or b) If I really want to try and get a gauge on their interest, I'll leave the ball in their court after a second/third date - and will always hear nothing.
I consider myself a pretty self-aware person and try to ask lots of questions/not rant about myself. I maintain good hygiene etc. I try to maintain open body language and eye contact but not creepily so. If the moment seems right, we'll kiss - if not, I'll hold off. I guess what I'm trying to say is, I think - or thought - that I don't suck outright as a date. But I think something may be up, and what really triggered this was some friends who are women talking about how they often will follow up with a guy after a date if they really liked him - they'll text and ask what they are up to next weekend, or send them an inside joke, or a funny gif, or a little "thank you+I had a great time!" text. The point was, they take a little initiative and probe to show some interest. One friend even insisted she always sends a thank you text as courtesy if the guy paid for drinks/dinner - even if she didn't like the guy much! I had an anxious realization that I've never - not once, ever - gotten anything resembling any initiative like that from the women I go out with. If I didn't follow up after these seemingly "good" dates, then there would be complete radio silence.
I guess what I'm wondering is - should I be concerned that women who simply do not follow up with me after a second or even first date just Aren't That Into Me? Do I cut my losses when I don't hear anything? Or am I wrong to leave a ball in anyone's court in this dating landscape where everyone is inundated with options? What's normal/not normal as far as me needing to carry all initiative? Only asking because some kind of proactive follow-up from any of my dates hasn't happened once - not a single time - since I entered the dating app world and it is a bit concerning compared to my friends experiences - there is no "thanks again, had a great time", no text from them taking their turn to ask me out, no "how was your weekend?"-style probing to spark a conversation or another date*. So now I'm wondering for the first time in a long time: Am I ugly? Boring? Do I give off the wrong "vibe"? Or fail to give off the right "vibe"? I don't expect metafilter to answer those questions for me, but I am looking for some ideas on how to close this exhausting cycle I'm stuck in or think about things I might be missing here, because when I reflect on it, these feel like some really bad numbers I'm putting up as volume of dates and successfully capturing someone's REAL interest - or interested enough to reach out to me themselves.
*I also want to note: I get that there are some women out there who are still socialized to "let the man do all of the courting"/don't want to come off as "needy" (which I think is antiquated nonsense in these modern times, but understand if some people still have this instilled). But I'd be shocked if *every* single person I went out with still subscribes to this mentality in 2019! I also live in a large liberal city. So how much should I be reading into all of this?
I wonder if you're dating in a commitmentphobic city like New York or Sydney, and your friends are dating in more reasonable places? Because your experiences sound pretty consistent with what I've heard from both men and women (including my early 30s brother and sister) in New York. Dating for keeps there sounds hopeless, at least if you're using apps.
And unfortunately, I can confirm that many women have been socialized to expect the man is not interested if he does not initiate contact after the date, and not to bother if she hasn't heard something by X days later. I'm a "woke" person who dates woke guys, and even I hesitiate to send the first post-date message.
posted by shaademaan at 6:16 AM on August 28, 2019 [13 favorites]
And unfortunately, I can confirm that many women have been socialized to expect the man is not interested if he does not initiate contact after the date, and not to bother if she hasn't heard something by X days later. I'm a "woke" person who dates woke guys, and even I hesitiate to send the first post-date message.
posted by shaademaan at 6:16 AM on August 28, 2019 [13 favorites]
Dating is a numbers game and even though when stuff like this happens, we try to find patterns and reasons. Mostly it's just dumb luck. From what you've written, I don't think there is something you're doing wrong. I think you've just met 20 women who weren't very polite/ weren't that into you/ still act according to traditionalist views, who knows. I also feel like since the apps, it's way easier for people to ghost each other, and it just happens more often.
The thing is, do you want to be dating people who act this way? I remember when I was younger I was mostly thinking of what people thought about me and my actions and way way less about my dates and their actions. Thinking constantly about what I was doing 'wrong' and what I should change to attract someone. The thing is, the people you attract while staying true to yourself and your values, make for way better dates and relationship material. They may be few and fewer in between, but better none the less. Once you do meet that person who will be enthusiastic about you and communicate proactively (if that's what you value), it'll be worth it!
posted by leopard-skin pill-box hat at 6:18 AM on August 28, 2019 [4 favorites]
The thing is, do you want to be dating people who act this way? I remember when I was younger I was mostly thinking of what people thought about me and my actions and way way less about my dates and their actions. Thinking constantly about what I was doing 'wrong' and what I should change to attract someone. The thing is, the people you attract while staying true to yourself and your values, make for way better dates and relationship material. They may be few and fewer in between, but better none the less. Once you do meet that person who will be enthusiastic about you and communicate proactively (if that's what you value), it'll be worth it!
posted by leopard-skin pill-box hat at 6:18 AM on August 28, 2019 [4 favorites]
I can only give you insight into myself: I only follow up with people if I'm actively excited about about them. If I'm mildly interested and they follow up with me, I will keep going out with them, and sometimes develop more interest. (Lots of people are kinda boring/ awkward on the first couple dates and I'm happy to give them more of a chance even if I'm too lazy to initiate it.) But if there's nothing that makes them a clearly better option than someone brand new who might be awesome, I won't take the initiative.
There is also an element of my interest decreasing if they are not showing interest, too. So if someone I'm "meh" about isn't expressing enough interest in me to follow up themself, I become less interested in them.
posted by metasarah at 6:20 AM on August 28, 2019 [11 favorites]
There is also an element of my interest decreasing if they are not showing interest, too. So if someone I'm "meh" about isn't expressing enough interest in me to follow up themself, I become less interested in them.
posted by metasarah at 6:20 AM on August 28, 2019 [11 favorites]
Dating is work. It takes time, and emotional labour.
I have been on a lot of dates, and many of those become second dates, or even third. But my experience is that if you haven't fallen into something passionate by the end of date number two, then it's pretty unlikely it's going to become anything more.
Of course, everyone is different. But chemistry is so vitally important. If you really feel chemistry with a person, who doesn't 'reciprocate', and you are wondering why, then your absolute best option is to be really straight in a message to them. Tell them you like them, felt a connection, and would really like to pursue this, but you also understand if they don't, and would prefer if they let you know.
That's all you have at your disposal, really.
I have had a few dates turn out to be people I want to hang out with in a no romantic way, but they are really rare, and hard to transform between states.
I do think that there is an unspoken pressure on men to be the slightly more forward in a male/female dating app match. But that is not down to traditional values or whatever, it's just down to the fact that there are a lot of assholes out there. And you have the added pressure of apps like Bumble which sell themselves on a (nonsense) idea of female autonomy (nonsense, because the app doesn't provide that autonomy anymore than any other, but rather suggests - implicitly - a set of power dynamics which are there to sell the app, and not really to help you find love or whatever. I totally believe in empowerment. But not this way.).
But, to reiterate, I really do think that since dating is now so common, and people are more able to represent themselves and understand how the numbers game works, that if you haven't gone home with someone or had a passionate exchange by the end of date two, then it's not going to go anywhere.
posted by 0bvious at 6:29 AM on August 28, 2019 [4 favorites]
I have been on a lot of dates, and many of those become second dates, or even third. But my experience is that if you haven't fallen into something passionate by the end of date number two, then it's pretty unlikely it's going to become anything more.
Of course, everyone is different. But chemistry is so vitally important. If you really feel chemistry with a person, who doesn't 'reciprocate', and you are wondering why, then your absolute best option is to be really straight in a message to them. Tell them you like them, felt a connection, and would really like to pursue this, but you also understand if they don't, and would prefer if they let you know.
That's all you have at your disposal, really.
I have had a few dates turn out to be people I want to hang out with in a no romantic way, but they are really rare, and hard to transform between states.
I do think that there is an unspoken pressure on men to be the slightly more forward in a male/female dating app match. But that is not down to traditional values or whatever, it's just down to the fact that there are a lot of assholes out there. And you have the added pressure of apps like Bumble which sell themselves on a (nonsense) idea of female autonomy (nonsense, because the app doesn't provide that autonomy anymore than any other, but rather suggests - implicitly - a set of power dynamics which are there to sell the app, and not really to help you find love or whatever. I totally believe in empowerment. But not this way.).
But, to reiterate, I really do think that since dating is now so common, and people are more able to represent themselves and understand how the numbers game works, that if you haven't gone home with someone or had a passionate exchange by the end of date two, then it's not going to go anywhere.
posted by 0bvious at 6:29 AM on August 28, 2019 [4 favorites]
I'm wondering if you are being discerning enough, yourself. It sounds like you are focusing a lot on the reactions of the women you are dating. But are you paying enough attention to how you feel about each of them? Are there any women you've decided that you weren't into? If you're willing to give anyone a chance, that may be part of the issue- people can sense when a person just wants a date, not necessarily to date them in particular, and it's not especially attractive (NOT saying that you are not attractive!! Just the behavior). You might be overly focused on getting women to agree to date you to the point of not paying attention to whether they're a good match for you, or whether you feel enough chemistry.
posted by bearette at 7:00 AM on August 28, 2019 [25 favorites]
posted by bearette at 7:00 AM on August 28, 2019 [25 favorites]
You're overthinking this. Don't let your friends' anecdotes get in your head. If you're consistently stalling out at date 3 or whatever, that's something to look into, but don't be stressing out about follow-up texts or the lack thereof. Focus on your in-person interactions and try to think of texting primarily as a scheduling/logistical tool.
posted by prize bull octorok at 7:11 AM on August 28, 2019
posted by prize bull octorok at 7:11 AM on August 28, 2019
This sounds normal to me, as a fellow [straight 20-something male] in [large liberal city] with [reasonable dating success]. In my experience, on really good dates we'll talk about a next date before we part ways, but an overwhelming majority of the time I do all of the "lets see each other again" text initiation until we pass the 3rd/4th date threshold.
posted by matrixclown at 7:13 AM on August 28, 2019 [3 favorites]
posted by matrixclown at 7:13 AM on August 28, 2019 [3 favorites]
I wouldn't be concerned about them not initiating contact after, and leaving that up to you. That's a pretty standard self-protection mode for women to be in, for a lot of reasons.
I would be concerned about the canceling-day-of thing, if it's a consistent pattern. I'd echo a few other commenters who've asked whether *you're* showing active interest in them during your dates, including physical interest, not just chatting.
posted by fingersandtoes at 8:03 AM on August 28, 2019 [1 favorite]
I would be concerned about the canceling-day-of thing, if it's a consistent pattern. I'd echo a few other commenters who've asked whether *you're* showing active interest in them during your dates, including physical interest, not just chatting.
posted by fingersandtoes at 8:03 AM on August 28, 2019 [1 favorite]
what really triggered this was some friends who are women talking about how they often will follow up with a guy after a date if they really liked him -
Any chance they might be doing that after the guy first having followed up with them, or in the wake of a pre-date spate of communication? It's a lot easier to follow up when you've already established a conversation.
Anyway, you're taking about some 20 people you've dated. Say half of them are willing in theory to be the first to make a move (and note that that willingness can meet with disapproval irl - I've been told I'm too forward, and I'm a total introvert with social anxiety who would be happy not to talk with people at all between very spaced-out dates! Enforcement of gender roles is a real thing); say half of those 10 are interested in a second date; say half (or round up to 3) of them might be interested in a third if circumstances were right. I don't think it would be strange for any of them to find themselves swamped with work, or simultaneously dating someone else (dating apps can sometimes make it hard not to do this), or be under the impression that you're not all that interested either and therefore prefer to leave the next move up to you, or...
In short, I wouldn't worry too much, don't judge by what other people are willing to tell their friends, and maybe at some point find a casual way to talk about the kind of communication styles you both favor.
posted by trig at 8:15 AM on August 28, 2019 [1 favorite]
Any chance they might be doing that after the guy first having followed up with them, or in the wake of a pre-date spate of communication? It's a lot easier to follow up when you've already established a conversation.
Anyway, you're taking about some 20 people you've dated. Say half of them are willing in theory to be the first to make a move (and note that that willingness can meet with disapproval irl - I've been told I'm too forward, and I'm a total introvert with social anxiety who would be happy not to talk with people at all between very spaced-out dates! Enforcement of gender roles is a real thing); say half of those 10 are interested in a second date; say half (or round up to 3) of them might be interested in a third if circumstances were right. I don't think it would be strange for any of them to find themselves swamped with work, or simultaneously dating someone else (dating apps can sometimes make it hard not to do this), or be under the impression that you're not all that interested either and therefore prefer to leave the next move up to you, or...
In short, I wouldn't worry too much, don't judge by what other people are willing to tell their friends, and maybe at some point find a casual way to talk about the kind of communication styles you both favor.
posted by trig at 8:15 AM on August 28, 2019 [1 favorite]
A few people have mentioned talking about this with a close female friend, but that might more awkward than asking close friends of any gender about an imaginary cousin.
By this I mean: if you, friend of mine, had a imaginary cousin/sibling/etc who was looking for a date-friend of my gender and age group, would you introduce that person to me? What about me seems like it would make me a good or poor match for a person whose happiness you desired? Stepping back from whether your friend thinks you're attractive to them to whether your friend thinks you'd be attractive to a hypothetical relative of theirs might be easier.
posted by bagel at 8:56 AM on August 28, 2019 [2 favorites]
By this I mean: if you, friend of mine, had a imaginary cousin/sibling/etc who was looking for a date-friend of my gender and age group, would you introduce that person to me? What about me seems like it would make me a good or poor match for a person whose happiness you desired? Stepping back from whether your friend thinks you're attractive to them to whether your friend thinks you'd be attractive to a hypothetical relative of theirs might be easier.
posted by bagel at 8:56 AM on August 28, 2019 [2 favorites]
Honestly I'd say that's pretty normal. Though this is coming from a mid-30s person in another city. I try to weed people with these tendencies out at the messaging stage- if they rely entirely on me to move the conversation forward, not asking questions, etc. I assume they're just playing the numbers game of getting to an in-person meeting ASAP, with minimum effort (which I don't really have a problem with, but isn't the way I like to do things). Since I started letting all these conversations trail off, the quality of the first dates that actually happen has gone way up.
posted by Jobst at 9:10 AM on August 28, 2019 [3 favorites]
posted by Jobst at 9:10 AM on August 28, 2019 [3 favorites]
Just as a data point, I (34/Straight/Cis/F) never text or otherwise follow up with a guy after a date even if it went really really well. I know it's dumb, but experience has taught me that most men respond to aloofness and distance more than enthusiasm. It's strategic and regrettable, but it works. I date in big pond commitment-phobic cities, so maybe women don't do this as much in other settings.
posted by massa intermedia at 9:36 AM on August 28, 2019 [7 favorites]
posted by massa intermedia at 9:36 AM on August 28, 2019 [7 favorites]
I'm not proud of this, but when I was dating I would do the initual follow-up with women but not with men (I'm a bi woman).
You have to remember that women receive a ton of social messages that you don't want to be clingy, you don't want to look "crazy", and that if men really liked you then they'd be chasing you.
posted by vanitas at 9:39 AM on August 28, 2019 [13 favorites]
You have to remember that women receive a ton of social messages that you don't want to be clingy, you don't want to look "crazy", and that if men really liked you then they'd be chasing you.
posted by vanitas at 9:39 AM on August 28, 2019 [13 favorites]
You don't mention doing anything on a date other than going out for drinks or maybe dinner. Perhaps change that up and go to an art gallery or a play. Maybe you need an angle like an activity to find someone with common interests. ("Wait! You love Fortnite! I love it, too!")
posted by SPrintF at 10:11 AM on August 28, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by SPrintF at 10:11 AM on August 28, 2019 [1 favorite]
a) a date will agree to another date but then cancel the day of without suggesting a day to reschedule, which I take as them not wanting to go out again
Canceling the day of is kinda rude and not being proactive about rescheduling is definitely a sign of a lack of interest.
b) If I really want to try and get a gauge on their interest, I'll leave the ball in their court after a second/third date - and will always hear nothing.
That's fair, but if you're interested in them, you don't lose a whole lot by continuing to be the one following up yourself.
Dating is not always easy or fun! In fact I think it usually isn't for most people! Good luck!
posted by grouse at 11:20 AM on August 28, 2019 [1 favorite]
Canceling the day of is kinda rude and not being proactive about rescheduling is definitely a sign of a lack of interest.
b) If I really want to try and get a gauge on their interest, I'll leave the ball in their court after a second/third date - and will always hear nothing.
That's fair, but if you're interested in them, you don't lose a whole lot by continuing to be the one following up yourself.
Dating is not always easy or fun! In fact I think it usually isn't for most people! Good luck!
posted by grouse at 11:20 AM on August 28, 2019 [1 favorite]
I think the answer is in the question. You go on "tons" of more or less identical dates in which you behave as a more or less identical gentleman and get a more or less identical polite response which trails off quickly.
As you say, you aren't doing anything overtly wrong or threatening; you sometimes kiss these strangers so you are not too passive; you get second dates sometimes so you are probably not being strange and off-putting either. you are just behaving in a generic way because you are following the universal advice given to people on dating websites, which is: treat it as a numbers game. when you do this, when you date women in such great numbers, you get to be practiced in first date behavior and unpracticed in any more natural way of human relations. You are good at first dates, but good in the same way every time, and not especially good at second and third dates. Maybe even bad at them.
this isn't your fault, probably. but you are treating all these women as if they are the same and they can't possibly be, can they? They follow the same formula with you in response to the same formula you follow every time. The answer is not to work up a new formula.
The couple of really enjoyable dates I've had through dating websites have all been with men who told me I was the first person they'd actually tried to meet in person, or one of the first few, and were shocked to be having a pleasant time (or so they said; if it was a line it was effective in the way the most simple and basic lines are: they make you feel special). Even if we talked about the same things everybody talks about on a first date, it still felt like a real conversation because it wasn't the fifth time they'd had the same conversation that week. But the couple of dates I've had with men who meet women this way all the time have been very pleasant with regard to the restaurants, very impressive with regard to the planning, very smooth, and mostly unmemorable. and yes, I didn't make any effort to take initiative in communicating with those men, because I didn't mind seeing them again, but I didn't really care either way.
it's nobody's fault, but it can't be fought by applying another layer of generic conduct-codes.
posted by queenofbithynia at 11:45 AM on August 28, 2019 [15 favorites]
As you say, you aren't doing anything overtly wrong or threatening; you sometimes kiss these strangers so you are not too passive; you get second dates sometimes so you are probably not being strange and off-putting either. you are just behaving in a generic way because you are following the universal advice given to people on dating websites, which is: treat it as a numbers game. when you do this, when you date women in such great numbers, you get to be practiced in first date behavior and unpracticed in any more natural way of human relations. You are good at first dates, but good in the same way every time, and not especially good at second and third dates. Maybe even bad at them.
this isn't your fault, probably. but you are treating all these women as if they are the same and they can't possibly be, can they? They follow the same formula with you in response to the same formula you follow every time. The answer is not to work up a new formula.
The couple of really enjoyable dates I've had through dating websites have all been with men who told me I was the first person they'd actually tried to meet in person, or one of the first few, and were shocked to be having a pleasant time (or so they said; if it was a line it was effective in the way the most simple and basic lines are: they make you feel special). Even if we talked about the same things everybody talks about on a first date, it still felt like a real conversation because it wasn't the fifth time they'd had the same conversation that week. But the couple of dates I've had with men who meet women this way all the time have been very pleasant with regard to the restaurants, very impressive with regard to the planning, very smooth, and mostly unmemorable. and yes, I didn't make any effort to take initiative in communicating with those men, because I didn't mind seeing them again, but I didn't really care either way.
it's nobody's fault, but it can't be fought by applying another layer of generic conduct-codes.
posted by queenofbithynia at 11:45 AM on August 28, 2019 [15 favorites]
It sounds like you aren't following up with some women as a test, to see if they'll check in with you. But what if they are doing the same? If you like someone, express interest. If, at the end of a date, you know you want to see them again, tell them that. Additionally/alternatively, send a quick text expressing interest after the date ends. Yes, some women are socialized not to express interest. Similarly, some men are socialized to be turned off by women who express interest. That means that, when you're interested, you don't have a lot to lose by expressing that interest a bit more directly instead of waiting around. If you don't want to play games, don't play them.
posted by bluedaisy at 12:17 PM on August 28, 2019 [3 favorites]
posted by bluedaisy at 12:17 PM on August 28, 2019 [3 favorites]
Do you flirt at all with these women?
Echoing what others have said above, you may be having a perfectly 'pleasant' time, but I can also do that with my brother or male coworker or gay guy friend, none of whom I'm trying to date.
Flirting, in my opinion, is key. If you aren't flirting, you may not be feeling chemistry, which is fine and you don't have to continue dating that person. But if you aren't flirting and you do feel chemistry, you may not be signaling it to your dates, so they just leave feeling 'meh'.
Flirting doesn't have to be creepy or sexual. Flirting, when it's genuine, is real laughs (not polite empty laughs). It's legitimate flattery (not 'you have pretty eyes', more 'holy crap you have the coolest job tell me more' etc). Showing true enthusiasm at her interests ('omg you made that sweater?! do you have any photos of other stuff you made? that is so cool, you should teach me how to knit!). But again, the flirting needs to be real expresssions of your real feelings about what she's telling you, not another prescriptive set of behaviors. If you aren't feeling these things about someone, then you aren't feeling them in general, and it's natural for dates to not move forward after one or two.
posted by greta simone at 2:09 PM on August 28, 2019 [1 favorite]
Echoing what others have said above, you may be having a perfectly 'pleasant' time, but I can also do that with my brother or male coworker or gay guy friend, none of whom I'm trying to date.
Flirting, in my opinion, is key. If you aren't flirting, you may not be feeling chemistry, which is fine and you don't have to continue dating that person. But if you aren't flirting and you do feel chemistry, you may not be signaling it to your dates, so they just leave feeling 'meh'.
Flirting doesn't have to be creepy or sexual. Flirting, when it's genuine, is real laughs (not polite empty laughs). It's legitimate flattery (not 'you have pretty eyes', more 'holy crap you have the coolest job tell me more' etc). Showing true enthusiasm at her interests ('omg you made that sweater?! do you have any photos of other stuff you made? that is so cool, you should teach me how to knit!). But again, the flirting needs to be real expresssions of your real feelings about what she's telling you, not another prescriptive set of behaviors. If you aren't feeling these things about someone, then you aren't feeling them in general, and it's natural for dates to not move forward after one or two.
posted by greta simone at 2:09 PM on August 28, 2019 [1 favorite]
If by "app dates" you mean Tinder, keep in mind that at your age it is largely a hookup app despite objections to the contrary. Sure lots of folks use it to find something more, but they are in the minority. I guess what I'm saying is you might be misreading these dates, considering the source, and you shouldn't read too much into dates not leading to more dates. They weren't intended to. I would be concerned if 20 real life, in-the-wild first dates fizzled in a row but that's not the situation here.
posted by FakeFreyja at 2:42 PM on August 28, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by FakeFreyja at 2:42 PM on August 28, 2019 [1 favorite]
Who are you selecting/messaging/replying to? Are you casting a wide net, or being very selective in your online search process?
I used to have this problem. I'd only go for people who really dazzled me physically and in their writing style. Obviously this was a very small pool, and dates were far between. Once we got to the date, it wasn't uncommon that they were either somewhat into themselves, not that interested in hooking up with me, an average looking person who gets awkward on dates, and/or we'd stay briefly in touch but I'd end up doing all the work and then it would fizzle.
When I started to relax my absurdly high standards in the online phase, my in person dates got better.
posted by seemoorglass at 3:20 PM on August 28, 2019 [1 favorite]
I used to have this problem. I'd only go for people who really dazzled me physically and in their writing style. Obviously this was a very small pool, and dates were far between. Once we got to the date, it wasn't uncommon that they were either somewhat into themselves, not that interested in hooking up with me, an average looking person who gets awkward on dates, and/or we'd stay briefly in touch but I'd end up doing all the work and then it would fizzle.
When I started to relax my absurdly high standards in the online phase, my in person dates got better.
posted by seemoorglass at 3:20 PM on August 28, 2019 [1 favorite]
Yes, there is something off but it's hard to tell from the internet. Yes, dating is hard! Yes, it takes a lot of time to meet a good match. BUT the odds are in your favor so I'm not sure what's happening. There's probably nothing wrong with your appearance, hygiene, etc. because you're making it to a second or third date. But literally no one wanted to see you again?
Your female friends are right. Even if they're unfairly expecting you to initiate, then can reciprocate. If we like someone, we tend to want to chat -- some a lot, some a little but most all more than nothing. I can't tell if 1) it's the vibes you're putting out there or 2) if you're the type of person you keep choosing that isn't a good match. If it's vibes, that's something you can work on by self-reflection and the feedback of friends. If it's the type of person, you can expand who you message. Have these female friends given you any personalized feedback or are these just general comments you've heard? Have you ever thought about dating any of these friends? Clearly, you don't want to be a creeper but sometimes a good match is right in front of you and you don't even realize it because you're in "friend" mode. Explain your situation to them and see if you can all go out sometime. They could be your wingwomen and also give you honest feedback.
If we're in our 20s and single -- which is most of us, you're in good company -- dating is as much about knowing ourselves and our shortcomings as it is watching for others. Right now I hear you focusing on what "you" want -- it's good to think of others but being so focused on dating alone can come across as super anxious or desperate. Reading about attachment theories has helped a lot of people I know. For me, the big help was therapy. There's something for everyone for improved self-awareness! I know part of my frustrations while dating are on me: in the past, I've tended to focus on people who were nice but emotionally unavailable, people who were fine human beings but not really compatible, etc. They just knew it better than I did, and too many times I tried too hard to make something work that never could. The good news is that you have a lot of things in your favor in terms of external factors if you're getting a second or third date. Now you're working on the inside and, chances are, you'll find insight and improved luck!
posted by smorgasbord at 4:10 PM on August 28, 2019
Your female friends are right. Even if they're unfairly expecting you to initiate, then can reciprocate. If we like someone, we tend to want to chat -- some a lot, some a little but most all more than nothing. I can't tell if 1) it's the vibes you're putting out there or 2) if you're the type of person you keep choosing that isn't a good match. If it's vibes, that's something you can work on by self-reflection and the feedback of friends. If it's the type of person, you can expand who you message. Have these female friends given you any personalized feedback or are these just general comments you've heard? Have you ever thought about dating any of these friends? Clearly, you don't want to be a creeper but sometimes a good match is right in front of you and you don't even realize it because you're in "friend" mode. Explain your situation to them and see if you can all go out sometime. They could be your wingwomen and also give you honest feedback.
If we're in our 20s and single -- which is most of us, you're in good company -- dating is as much about knowing ourselves and our shortcomings as it is watching for others. Right now I hear you focusing on what "you" want -- it's good to think of others but being so focused on dating alone can come across as super anxious or desperate. Reading about attachment theories has helped a lot of people I know. For me, the big help was therapy. There's something for everyone for improved self-awareness! I know part of my frustrations while dating are on me: in the past, I've tended to focus on people who were nice but emotionally unavailable, people who were fine human beings but not really compatible, etc. They just knew it better than I did, and too many times I tried too hard to make something work that never could. The good news is that you have a lot of things in your favor in terms of external factors if you're getting a second or third date. Now you're working on the inside and, chances are, you'll find insight and improved luck!
posted by smorgasbord at 4:10 PM on August 28, 2019
Re: canceling the day of - that is unfortunately fairly common crappy dating behavior. And I agree with you, if they don't suggest an alternate day to go out, it's because they no longer want to go. Either they met someone they liked better in the interim or they were halfhearted about another date to begin with, and once Date Day arrived, realized they didn't have the energy to fix hair/makeup/outfit, travel to date, make conversation for 2+ hours, etc.
Re: following up after a date: I (female) and my female friends never ever follow up with a guy after a date. Never. Experience has taught us that there is no point at all, because if the guy likes us, he will do the follow up. I totally agree with this:
Just as a data point, I (34/Straight/Cis/F) never text or otherwise follow up with a guy after a date even if it went really really well. I know it's dumb, but experience has taught me that most men respond to aloofness and distance more than enthusiasm. It's strategic and regrettable, but it works. I date in big pond commitment-phobic cities, so maybe women don't do this as much in other settings.
I'd be willing to bet money that some of those second date women were actually waiting around to hear from you and were disappointed when you never texted.
posted by sunflower16 at 6:07 PM on August 28, 2019 [5 favorites]
Re: following up after a date: I (female) and my female friends never ever follow up with a guy after a date. Never. Experience has taught us that there is no point at all, because if the guy likes us, he will do the follow up. I totally agree with this:
Just as a data point, I (34/Straight/Cis/F) never text or otherwise follow up with a guy after a date even if it went really really well. I know it's dumb, but experience has taught me that most men respond to aloofness and distance more than enthusiasm. It's strategic and regrettable, but it works. I date in big pond commitment-phobic cities, so maybe women don't do this as much in other settings.
I'd be willing to bet money that some of those second date women were actually waiting around to hear from you and were disappointed when you never texted.
posted by sunflower16 at 6:07 PM on August 28, 2019 [5 favorites]
I'm 38, female, and date a lot, and I'll echo what the other women in this thread have said: that there is no need for me to follow-up. It's not that I would hesitate to send the first post-date message, it's more that if a date goes well, 99.9% of the time I have a text from the gentleman in question before I even get home from said date. It pretty clearly and immediately differentiates them from the men who send nothing at all, and so if I don't hear from someone within a day or so, I would very much assume they were not actually interested, even if the date had been fun or it felt like chemistry had been present. (This goes quadruple for a date that involved sex, by the way.) It would not at all occur to me that they were leaving the ball in my court, that's just...not how it works.
As for the cancelling on the day-of and not rescheduling, yeah, I've done this and it nearly always means that something in our between-date texting has abruptly crossed one of my boundaries. If they are a super nice guy that I'm happy to have met and spent time with BUT I'm just not feeling it for whatever reason, I always let them know, but that scenario is actually super rare because something else usually happens first that immediately kills my interest. Just to give you a small sampling of reasons I have abruptly terminated communication for reasons that the men themselves probably considered innocuous and not creepy:
- sent me a selfie of himself on the toilet
- while trying to schedule the date, told me that Tuesday night didn't work for him to meet because he has a standing weekly appointment with another woman for sex (I just...it's one thing to assume your date is sleeping with other people, it's another to be told in a weird clinical way like that, he even jokingly offered for this woman to provide me "a reference")
- texted me constantly during my workday or when they knew I had my kids with me and acted impatient about response time
- called me "kitten" or "baby" or similar but never by my actual name
- used baby talk (tushie, peepee) when the conversation started to veer into flirting or sexy talk
- acted very insecure or overly self-effacing about themselves and kept implying that they felt I was out of their league
- never texted me ANYTHING more interesting or substantial than "how was your day?" "how was your night?" "how was your Monday?" "how was your weekend?" until one of us dies
Obviously your dates' MMV, but just throwing a few more ideas out there.
posted by anderjen at 7:06 PM on August 28, 2019 [7 favorites]
As for the cancelling on the day-of and not rescheduling, yeah, I've done this and it nearly always means that something in our between-date texting has abruptly crossed one of my boundaries. If they are a super nice guy that I'm happy to have met and spent time with BUT I'm just not feeling it for whatever reason, I always let them know, but that scenario is actually super rare because something else usually happens first that immediately kills my interest. Just to give you a small sampling of reasons I have abruptly terminated communication for reasons that the men themselves probably considered innocuous and not creepy:
- sent me a selfie of himself on the toilet
- while trying to schedule the date, told me that Tuesday night didn't work for him to meet because he has a standing weekly appointment with another woman for sex (I just...it's one thing to assume your date is sleeping with other people, it's another to be told in a weird clinical way like that, he even jokingly offered for this woman to provide me "a reference")
- texted me constantly during my workday or when they knew I had my kids with me and acted impatient about response time
- called me "kitten" or "baby" or similar but never by my actual name
- used baby talk (tushie, peepee) when the conversation started to veer into flirting or sexy talk
- acted very insecure or overly self-effacing about themselves and kept implying that they felt I was out of their league
- never texted me ANYTHING more interesting or substantial than "how was your day?" "how was your night?" "how was your Monday?" "how was your weekend?" until one of us dies
Obviously your dates' MMV, but just throwing a few more ideas out there.
posted by anderjen at 7:06 PM on August 28, 2019 [7 favorites]
I don't know the dating app scene of today or the line between dating vs hookup in this day and age. Not coming on a bit stronger in the "let's get frisky" or at least being obvious flirting will get you friendzoned. The women who will cavewoman bash you over the head and make that move are few and far between.
If you're like me back then and thinking that you can just be a nice decent guy and they'll eventually sgag you up.... doesn't work that way or you're going to be waiting a long time for that one with the club who will be the initiator. Somebody's got to do it. You or Her.
I'd also consider the timing of your dates. If they're roughly weekly, the 3 or 4 is so approximately 28 days and a woman might not want to go on a "should be frisky by now" date on her period. If you haven't considered this, just take into account when she did take that date because "just maybe frisky" and do some math.
This not being college where you might have months of random encounters for the interest to grow and show but this dating app thing... yeah, 2nd or 3rd date you'd better attempting something because if nothing else she has a whole list of your replacements.
posted by zengargoyle at 2:02 AM on August 29, 2019
If you're like me back then and thinking that you can just be a nice decent guy and they'll eventually sgag you up.... doesn't work that way or you're going to be waiting a long time for that one with the club who will be the initiator. Somebody's got to do it. You or Her.
I'd also consider the timing of your dates. If they're roughly weekly, the 3 or 4 is so approximately 28 days and a woman might not want to go on a "should be frisky by now" date on her period. If you haven't considered this, just take into account when she did take that date because "just maybe frisky" and do some math.
This not being college where you might have months of random encounters for the interest to grow and show but this dating app thing... yeah, 2nd or 3rd date you'd better attempting something because if nothing else she has a whole list of your replacements.
posted by zengargoyle at 2:02 AM on August 29, 2019
I'd also consider the timing of your dates. If they're roughly weekly, the 3 or 4 is so approximately 28 days and a woman might not want to go on a "should be frisky by now" date on her period. If you haven't considered this, just take into account when she did take that date because "just maybe frisky" and do some math.
What on Earth?! This assumes your first date was at the beginning of her cycle, which...why would it necessarily be? I'm a woman and can assure you this is not a consideration. You have absolutely no idea whether your third or fourth date coincides with your date's period. I can't believe this even needs to be said.
posted by sunflower16 at 3:49 AM on August 29, 2019 [13 favorites]
What on Earth?! This assumes your first date was at the beginning of her cycle, which...why would it necessarily be? I'm a woman and can assure you this is not a consideration. You have absolutely no idea whether your third or fourth date coincides with your date's period. I can't believe this even needs to be said.
posted by sunflower16 at 3:49 AM on August 29, 2019 [13 favorites]
Just as a data point, I (34/Straight/Cis/F) never text or otherwise follow up with a guy after a date even if it went really really well. I know it's dumb, but experience has taught me that most men respond to aloofness and distance more than enthusiasm. It's strategic and regrettable, but it works. I date in big pond commitment-phobic cities, so maybe women don't do this as much in other settings.
So true. This is obviously sexist and not how things should be, but there's a strong message that guys like to do the chasing, that women who initiate are desperate and clingy, and that if a guy likes you, he'll pursue you to the ends of the earth.
And to add an anecdote to back this up- I'm a straight female currently dating a straight guy I met last year, went on two fun dates with, then stopped hearing from and assumed he'd lost interest. Since reconnecting, we have both shared that we thought the other wasn't interested- me because he stopped initiating contact, him because I let him do the contacting.
If you like someone, I'd continue to take charge of the contact (if they are responsive and say yes to your invitations- last minute flakes probably aren't interested). This doesn't mean forever (in my case, now we've been dating for a few months, we initiate contact and spending time together more or less evenly).
Basically, never underestimate the insecurity of other people- no matter how self-confident they might appear.
posted by Dwardles at 9:08 AM on August 29, 2019 [4 favorites]
So true. This is obviously sexist and not how things should be, but there's a strong message that guys like to do the chasing, that women who initiate are desperate and clingy, and that if a guy likes you, he'll pursue you to the ends of the earth.
And to add an anecdote to back this up- I'm a straight female currently dating a straight guy I met last year, went on two fun dates with, then stopped hearing from and assumed he'd lost interest. Since reconnecting, we have both shared that we thought the other wasn't interested- me because he stopped initiating contact, him because I let him do the contacting.
If you like someone, I'd continue to take charge of the contact (if they are responsive and say yes to your invitations- last minute flakes probably aren't interested). This doesn't mean forever (in my case, now we've been dating for a few months, we initiate contact and spending time together more or less evenly).
Basically, never underestimate the insecurity of other people- no matter how self-confident they might appear.
posted by Dwardles at 9:08 AM on August 29, 2019 [4 favorites]
I also agree that you're over-worrying but also that you should ask yourself which of these women you were actually interested in. Personally, even if I go on a date and don't want to see the person again, if they seemed like a decent person I would write back to them and let them know I wasn't feeling chemistry. So it may be that these women are just rude.
However, there's something weird about going on dates with 20 women and "wanting" all of them. If I went on 20 online dates, there might be 4 or 5 maximum that I clicked with enough to want to go out with again. The rest would just be "meh". Not because they are unattractive, but because you can't have chemistry with every single person you meet. So maybe you need to focus more on the quality of the interactions you're having and your inner feelings towards these women, and determine how interested you really are in each one. If you're equally interested in all of them, that strikes me as a bit bland and maybe you're not really paying attention to each person's individuality and the women can sense that.
posted by winterportage at 9:14 AM on August 29, 2019 [2 favorites]
However, there's something weird about going on dates with 20 women and "wanting" all of them. If I went on 20 online dates, there might be 4 or 5 maximum that I clicked with enough to want to go out with again. The rest would just be "meh". Not because they are unattractive, but because you can't have chemistry with every single person you meet. So maybe you need to focus more on the quality of the interactions you're having and your inner feelings towards these women, and determine how interested you really are in each one. If you're equally interested in all of them, that strikes me as a bit bland and maybe you're not really paying attention to each person's individuality and the women can sense that.
posted by winterportage at 9:14 AM on August 29, 2019 [2 favorites]
In my experience (OKCupid, five years ago), dating 20 people and not getting more serious with any of them would indicate a systemic problem. Perhaps queenofbythnia is on to something, but it definitely feels like more than bad luck.
posted by serathen at 11:10 AM on August 29, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by serathen at 11:10 AM on August 29, 2019 [1 favorite]
Your experience seems totally normal to me. I was on OKC for a while, and until I met my wife my experience was, if anything, even less productive than yours sounds. My wife was the one who messaged me first, could keep a conversation going, and was a generally all around awesome person.
As far as I can tell, when you're on a dating site/app you go through a /ton/ of people. There is no standard, or guideline for interaction, so no thing that anyone does can meaningfully inform future interactions with other people. Try not to be a jerk or a creep, keep going on dates, and eventually you'll find someone who stands out. It's an appeal to RNGesus, which is annoying, but that's going to be true no matter how you arrange for dates.
posted by Zudz at 12:07 PM on August 29, 2019
As far as I can tell, when you're on a dating site/app you go through a /ton/ of people. There is no standard, or guideline for interaction, so no thing that anyone does can meaningfully inform future interactions with other people. Try not to be a jerk or a creep, keep going on dates, and eventually you'll find someone who stands out. It's an appeal to RNGesus, which is annoying, but that's going to be true no matter how you arrange for dates.
posted by Zudz at 12:07 PM on August 29, 2019
Personally, even if I go on a date and don't want to see the person again, if they seemed like a decent person I would write back to them and let them know I wasn't feeling chemistry. So it may be that these women are just rude.
FWIW, I only do this if asked on a second date. I had someone do it to me once (texted after a first date to tell me he wasn't feeling chemistry) and I found it kind of presumptuous.
posted by sunflower16 at 6:23 PM on August 29, 2019 [6 favorites]
FWIW, I only do this if asked on a second date. I had someone do it to me once (texted after a first date to tell me he wasn't feeling chemistry) and I found it kind of presumptuous.
posted by sunflower16 at 6:23 PM on August 29, 2019 [6 favorites]
- never texted me ANYTHING more interesting or substantial than "how was your day?" "how was your night?" "how was your Monday?" "how was your weekend?" until one of us dies
THIIIIIS omg.
posted by exceptinsects at 6:40 PM on September 3, 2019 [3 favorites]
THIIIIIS omg.
posted by exceptinsects at 6:40 PM on September 3, 2019 [3 favorites]
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This thread is closed to new comments.
I'm not convinced that we are going to be able to help you solve it here on the internet, as you said. This is a time to go a trusted female friend and tell her what you told us and ask her for advice about how you might change your approach.
It feels to me like you are asking the right questions! You just need to ask them of a woman who knows you really well.
N.B. I am 37 and haven't been dating for a few years, so my opinion is valid for at best late 20s or 30s dating. If you are 24 or something maybe this just is how it is now, what do I know.
posted by Kwine at 5:53 AM on August 28, 2019 [12 favorites]