Am I saying more than I want to with this flag?

July 30, 2019 8:30 AM

We're getting a house! While we’re waiting and packing to move into our new place next month, we're planning a few small things to make the place ours on day one. One of which is putting something in the flag bracket on the front porch. I’ve picked out a New England flag that we both like, but I want to make sure I’m not saying more than I want to.

We're considering the flag of New England, specifically the one without the St. George’s Cross. I’m from Maine, she’s from New Hampshire, and we live in Vermont. It’s perfect, it covers all three of our homes and then some.

My concern is this: years ago I considered buying a Vermont Republic/Green Mountain Boys flag, but then learned that the flag is also used by the Second Vermont Republic- a successionist group here in Vermont, and they’ve got some neo-confederate, white supremacist connections that I definitely don’t want to support in any way. That, combined with libertarians and the Tea Party co-opting the Gadsden flag, has made me wary about using an old flag.

Before we commit to hanging this flag on our home, I want to know if there’s any organization or community or other group using that New England flag, (or even the similar one with the St. George’s Cross) in support of any white supremacist, racist, homophobic, sexist, or otherwise shitty, organizations. Is anyone aware of any uses of this flag other than just representing New England?

I'd also take suggestions of websites or resources where I can research this flag and any modern uses of it. I've been looking and have found nothing yet, but I'd like to be sure that I'm covering all my bases.

I just want to announce our household's love of New England, not unintentionally broadcast to our new neighborhood that we're horrible assholes. I'm pretty confident we're not.

posted by The Man from Lardfork to Society & Culture (21 answers total)

The only people I know who use this flag currently are fans of the soccer team New England Revolution. I, too, was dismayed about the GMB flag.
posted by jessamyn at 8:38 AM on July 30, 2019

It's used by supporters of the local MLS team, which I would say leans a little away from it also being used by actual horrible people, but may also attract people yelling things at you that you don't understand.
posted by Etrigan at 8:38 AM on July 30, 2019 [4 favorites]

I’m from Vermont and I live in Maine now and I’ve never seen this flag before. My husband grew up in Maine and also has never seen it. I wouldn’t assume anything nefarious. Growing up lots of people had both the United States flag and the Vermont state flag, that’s what we did.
posted by pintapicasso at 8:49 AM on July 30, 2019 [1 favorite]

I made this mistake with a "Don't Tread on Me" hat a few years ago, but I have never seen any negative associations with the Pine Tree flag (lifelong New Englander)
posted by briank at 8:53 AM on July 30, 2019 [2 favorites]

Well, I will say that I live near a quite rural area of New England where there are a lot of Tea Party types and I have never seen this flag - I had to look at the image. They usually hang an American flag and/or the Gadsden flag.

So I don't know if it will have any particular impression on anyone, actually--if you're trying to send a message, it might just be confusing. But probably not harmful.
posted by epanalepsis at 8:56 AM on July 30, 2019

Ha. Well, people might think you're Lebanese (flag looks kind of similar to N.E. flag-uninformed eyes like mine), which is kind of cool, but that's the only thing I can think of that that people might mistake the flag for.
posted by shaademaan at 9:00 AM on July 30, 2019 [1 favorite]

I have a neighbor who has flown some unfamiliar flags and I have felt wary about what they were signaling. One day they put up a smiley face flag, and only then did I feel like their flags were personal, rather than a political gesture. The tricky aspect with your flag is if I'm going past and wondering what it is, I'm going to search "pine tree" and "flag" and then I'm going to get this, which is not the allegiance you're necessarily trying to convey.
posted by xo at 9:02 AM on July 30, 2019 [6 favorites]

Thinking on it some more, could you fly the state flags instead? Those are unambiguous - (well, I wouldn't fly the MA flag because it's horribly racist but even if you did people would understand what it meant and anyways you're talking about VT, NH, and Maine). Then you can be quite sure people will understand what you mean, even if it's unusual. I agree with xo that unfamiliar flags can send mixed messages, and who knows what the libertarians are going to come up with next? Best to stay on unambiguous territory.
posted by epanalepsis at 9:15 AM on July 30, 2019 [5 favorites]

I have seen the New England flag (the one with the pine tree) used by the New England Secession Movement, but they're very obscure. (The only reason I've heard of them is because they happened to get involved in some anti-Trump organizing on Facebook a couple years ago). Also, while they're definitely sorta kooky, they're more in a Chapo, Bernie-bro direction, rather than being neo-Confederate, so I know I personally would be less concerned about being confused with them.
posted by firechicago at 9:29 AM on July 30, 2019 [1 favorite]

In my fairly liberal neighborhood these days, people are flying various versions of welcome flags, flags of their favorite teams, and also various rainbow flags, and "hate has no home here" flags. You tend to see the U.S. flag or state flag mostly around holidays like the 4th of July. If you are new to the neighborhood, I suggest maybe initially flying something like a welcome flag at first, and then once people there know you, you can switch it up to something else.
posted by gudrun at 9:39 AM on July 30, 2019 [4 favorites]

I don’t recommend flying obscure-looking flags. Whenever I see one, my first thought is that this person feels REALLY strongly about a group affiliation. And if It doesn’t clarify what it is, that’s exclusionary right off the bat. That gives me the fear.
posted by oxisos at 9:45 AM on July 30, 2019 [36 favorites]

I lean (slightly) toward agreeing with oxisos. I read flags (of any kind) as a signifier of in-group status. If I don't recognize the flag, then I'm gonna assume that I'm a member of the out-group.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 10:18 AM on July 30, 2019 [2 favorites]

I would think about the reaction of people who don't recognize the flag. Personally, I would be suspicious, because my experience is that these obscure flags are more often associated with right-wing groups.

I might take the time to look it up, and I might not. If I google "pine tree red flag" I get the correct flag, but it doesn't tell me anything about what you're trying to communicate with it. It doesn't say it's favored by white-wi - I mean, right-wing groups, but it doesn't say it's not, either, so I'm kind of where I started. I might think you're part of the New England Independence movement, because that's one of the only groups mentioned on the Wikipedia page.

I would suggest that if you want to fly this flag, also flying another flag that is overtly anti-racist, like one of the many versions of "hate has no home here" or the like. That would make me think it's unlikely you're a white nationalist.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 10:39 AM on July 30, 2019 [2 favorites]

Among flag aficionados, that flag basically just has the reputation of "yay New England" as well as a bit of "this one is pretty good". There's lots of historical symbols that get used by far-right movements but unless they really dominate it (like the Gadsden flag sadly) I prefer to actively broaden their use to try to keep them from being taken over, so to speak.

With that in mind I'd second the concern about what non-flag-people might wonder, and suggest pairing it with something else to clearly express where you stand on certain things. A rainbow flag is good for that if it suits you.
posted by traveler_ at 10:45 AM on July 30, 2019 [8 favorites]

I wouldn't have thought like this five years ago, but my first impression of a flag display usually defaults to hate rather than heritage. I even look at those Steelers Terrible Towel people with a little side-eye.

Maybe keep the flags indoors, where you can properly explain their meaning to visitors.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 10:56 AM on July 30, 2019 [1 favorite]

Can you fly two flags? There are a few flags that I always read as lefty which opens up my interpretation of anything next to them. UN flag? The Big Blue Dot or whatever a picture of Earth from space is called as a flag? Any rainbow flag.

Like traveler_, I think it's worthwhile to keep symbols from being taken over.
posted by clew at 11:20 AM on July 30, 2019

People who follow the MLS are going to think you are a real serious New England Revolution fan. Those who have passing familiarity with the Middle East are going to think you somehow got the wrong tree on your Lebanese flag*

Don't get too hung up on people who are ignorant of the history of the very place they live.

*This was me the first time as an LAFC fan I saw a game at the Rev's stadium.
posted by sideshow at 12:19 PM on July 30, 2019

You can make a 1/2 page flyer with the flag and its story, get a brochure holder or sturdy plastic, educate people. Mostly, educate your mail carrier who will tell other neighbors.
posted by theora55 at 4:34 PM on July 30, 2019 [1 favorite]

Why do you want to fly an obscure flag that no one but yourselves will be likely to understand the meaning of? People aren't going to knock on your door and ask for context, and you will have the danger of misunderstanding even if it is a pretty benign flag.

My opinion: flags are about communicating to people your affiliation, and that only really works when you are pretty un-subtle about that affiliation, and it comes with the connotation that you care deeply about that affiliation. At the bare minimum, I'd either pair it with an unsubtle flag (I personally like the rainbow flag, but you do you), or wait to get to know your neighbors and see what sorts of flags are common sights there before you put that one out. You only get the chance at a first impression once, after all.
posted by Aleyn at 12:27 AM on July 31, 2019 [2 favorites]

Unfortunately, in today's world, I tend to agree with the above posters that an "unknown" or "unsure" flag would give me pause.

I like the idea of "pairing" it with a super progressive flag, suggested above.

Maybe you could also make some sort of triumvirate of the Maine, New Hampshire, and Vermont state flags instead?
posted by knownassociate at 6:04 AM on July 31, 2019

I would pair the flag with a Black Lives Matter or "In This House..." yard sign and then go for it. I love the meaning for you and it would be a shame not to fly a flag if you want!
posted by Threeve at 7:55 AM on July 31, 2019