Please mansplain my fetish back to me
May 28, 2019 8:59 PM Subscribe
Is waxing considered an oppressive practice?
I was an audience member at a spoken word performance the other night, and a woman did a piece on how in a previous relationship a man had asked her to wax down there, and how oppressive it was. The mainly female audience hooted and hollered in support.
I felt my ears go red, as I felt like my own personal fetish had been outed. I have asked partners if they like waxing, and if that would turn then on as part of our sex life. Some have said yes, and some have said no. Within that audience I felt like my desires were really wrong and that i had asked for and been turned on by something that was oppressive and patriarchal. And for the record I am not interested in infantilizing women, nor feel turned on by that idea.
Before I feel comfortable unpacking this in therapy, I wanted to ask all you good internet strangers: is saying you like waxing on your partner a really oppressive thing to be doing?
I was an audience member at a spoken word performance the other night, and a woman did a piece on how in a previous relationship a man had asked her to wax down there, and how oppressive it was. The mainly female audience hooted and hollered in support.
I felt my ears go red, as I felt like my own personal fetish had been outed. I have asked partners if they like waxing, and if that would turn then on as part of our sex life. Some have said yes, and some have said no. Within that audience I felt like my desires were really wrong and that i had asked for and been turned on by something that was oppressive and patriarchal. And for the record I am not interested in infantilizing women, nor feel turned on by that idea.
Before I feel comfortable unpacking this in therapy, I wanted to ask all you good internet strangers: is saying you like waxing on your partner a really oppressive thing to be doing?
Well, the expectation that women remove their body hair is oppressive and patriarchal.
That doesn’t necessarily mean your fetish (?) is oppressive. Do you expect that your partners wax? Do you pressure them about it if they don’t want to?
posted by sevensnowflakes at 9:10 PM on May 28, 2019 [28 favorites]
That doesn’t necessarily mean your fetish (?) is oppressive. Do you expect that your partners wax? Do you pressure them about it if they don’t want to?
posted by sevensnowflakes at 9:10 PM on May 28, 2019 [28 favorites]
I don’t get why you felt so personal about it. There’s vast, vast, vast amounts of porn featuring women who wax everything off including the hair around their anus. They do it because they are paid to do it. And it helps their mostly male audience to “see” everything on camera (male gaze!) and, further, many men do fetishize young bodies and a not small amount fetishize a pre-pubescent body.
So, like, waxing isn’t just a YOU thing. But female beauty standards can indeed be seen and read and felt as oppressive. The actual waxing of one’s private areas can be costly and painful and takes time and attention to maintain.
But, hey, it’s not all just women. Men can wax, too. If you haven’t ever tried it, go get a wax! Enjoy the smooth feeling of your own junk! You still don’t really get a say in what other people do with their bodies but at least you might get some perspective.
posted by amanda at 9:19 PM on May 28, 2019 [19 favorites]
So, like, waxing isn’t just a YOU thing. But female beauty standards can indeed be seen and read and felt as oppressive. The actual waxing of one’s private areas can be costly and painful and takes time and attention to maintain.
But, hey, it’s not all just women. Men can wax, too. If you haven’t ever tried it, go get a wax! Enjoy the smooth feeling of your own junk! You still don’t really get a say in what other people do with their bodies but at least you might get some perspective.
posted by amanda at 9:19 PM on May 28, 2019 [19 favorites]
I don’t know your gender, but I’ve only ever been asked to do this from men, so I’m responding as though you are. My apologies if I’ve misunderstood. Your question title using the word “mansplain” would usually mean a woman being told something by a man, so I’m not 100% sure.
As a woman, my experience has been that it’s all in the way it’s done/requested. I’ve had a man brag to me that he’s gotten every woman he’s slept with to shave/wax. It was something clearly for his pleasure, because he disliked pubic hair, and dammit, if you wanted to sleep with him, them’s the rules. It was pretty gross. I showed him my unshaven leg hair in response.
Yeah, it’s definitely tied up with women being told what to do with their bodies, how to be desirable to heterosexual men, men’s fear of homosexuality, and men’s attraction to younger women. I’m not saying ANY of those things apply to you. Im saying it’s hard for me not to think of those things when men tell me they prefer hairless vulvas. But you could absolutely be having sex with women for whom those issues don’t come up at all!
I say, as long as it’s being framed as a request, not an expectation, and you’re not making her think she’s “less than” if she doesn’t want to, you’re probably fine. As my old roommate used to say - “everyone’s a freak in the bedroom.” Which, of course, means no one is. I’m not generally one to kink-shame if all parties are enthusiastically consenting.
posted by greermahoney at 9:27 PM on May 28, 2019 [16 favorites]
As a woman, my experience has been that it’s all in the way it’s done/requested. I’ve had a man brag to me that he’s gotten every woman he’s slept with to shave/wax. It was something clearly for his pleasure, because he disliked pubic hair, and dammit, if you wanted to sleep with him, them’s the rules. It was pretty gross. I showed him my unshaven leg hair in response.
Yeah, it’s definitely tied up with women being told what to do with their bodies, how to be desirable to heterosexual men, men’s fear of homosexuality, and men’s attraction to younger women. I’m not saying ANY of those things apply to you. Im saying it’s hard for me not to think of those things when men tell me they prefer hairless vulvas. But you could absolutely be having sex with women for whom those issues don’t come up at all!
I say, as long as it’s being framed as a request, not an expectation, and you’re not making her think she’s “less than” if she doesn’t want to, you’re probably fine. As my old roommate used to say - “everyone’s a freak in the bedroom.” Which, of course, means no one is. I’m not generally one to kink-shame if all parties are enthusiastically consenting.
posted by greermahoney at 9:27 PM on May 28, 2019 [16 favorites]
There's the issue of the waxing itself, which is painful/uncomfortable, expensive, time-consuming, and results in making a woman's privates look prepubescent -- but which some women choose to do regardless because they like the upsides.
Then there's the issue of a man dictating how a woman should groom her own body (and asking her to do something physically painful and relatively onerous in that grooming besides) for his sexual pleasure. An ex-boyfriend of mine used to do things like that, to the point that he had "rules" for things like what I was supposed to wear to bed (the rules were all Catch-22s, natch). It's very controlling, and it makes you feel like your body is just this man's sexual plaything, not your own. And yes, that relationship did edge into abuse and I was physically scared of him. That's a common experience for women, though, and that's maybe part of the crowd's reaction to hearing about a man dictating how his girlfriend should groom herself and how much physical discomfort or even pain she should endure for his pleasure, and the woman saying no.
I mean, I'm not saying that you're doing anything wrong or even should be doing anything differently when you ask women to indulge you in this. Just, when it comes to pretty loaded requests, like waxing, it's easy to wind up feeling like your body is nothing but another person's sex toy to do whatever they want with, and that feels really bad. So you have to tread delicately and stay respectful.
posted by rue72 at 9:30 PM on May 28, 2019 [14 favorites]
Then there's the issue of a man dictating how a woman should groom her own body (and asking her to do something physically painful and relatively onerous in that grooming besides) for his sexual pleasure. An ex-boyfriend of mine used to do things like that, to the point that he had "rules" for things like what I was supposed to wear to bed (the rules were all Catch-22s, natch). It's very controlling, and it makes you feel like your body is just this man's sexual plaything, not your own. And yes, that relationship did edge into abuse and I was physically scared of him. That's a common experience for women, though, and that's maybe part of the crowd's reaction to hearing about a man dictating how his girlfriend should groom herself and how much physical discomfort or even pain she should endure for his pleasure, and the woman saying no.
I mean, I'm not saying that you're doing anything wrong or even should be doing anything differently when you ask women to indulge you in this. Just, when it comes to pretty loaded requests, like waxing, it's easy to wind up feeling like your body is nothing but another person's sex toy to do whatever they want with, and that feels really bad. So you have to tread delicately and stay respectful.
posted by rue72 at 9:30 PM on May 28, 2019 [14 favorites]
It is fine to have a fetish that is not dangerous or non-consensual. Full stop. You are allowed to have that and should not feel ashamed. It requires both parties to be willing participants, also full stop. That's why fetlife is a hugely popular site and the internet has opened up some very niche fetishes (I just mean specific and not many people have them) to people finding what they're looking for.
Yours is very general. I also have a similar but slightly different one, and it's not a thing I'd demand of a partner but I appreciate it and have discussed it before when dating. The key is that #1 I would never demand #2 if it was a dealbreaker for me to not have it fulfilled, I would put that front and center when dating. It isn't, so I don't. It's okay to feel the way you do, sexuality is a complicated beast.
My partner surprised me with something last night and it was fun. I felt wanted and loved. I also spring random things on her that I know she'll like. Neither of us demands things, but we clearly have preferences and things we like. That's okay. Be respectful and determine how important this is to you because the more important it is, the more you need to screen potential partners for their feelings. Again, you are not a monster any more than someone who likes feet or whatever. Dan Savage's podcast might be a good resource on being good, giving and game and feeling confident in your sexuality.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 9:35 PM on May 28, 2019 [13 favorites]
Yours is very general. I also have a similar but slightly different one, and it's not a thing I'd demand of a partner but I appreciate it and have discussed it before when dating. The key is that #1 I would never demand #2 if it was a dealbreaker for me to not have it fulfilled, I would put that front and center when dating. It isn't, so I don't. It's okay to feel the way you do, sexuality is a complicated beast.
My partner surprised me with something last night and it was fun. I felt wanted and loved. I also spring random things on her that I know she'll like. Neither of us demands things, but we clearly have preferences and things we like. That's okay. Be respectful and determine how important this is to you because the more important it is, the more you need to screen potential partners for their feelings. Again, you are not a monster any more than someone who likes feet or whatever. Dan Savage's podcast might be a good resource on being good, giving and game and feeling confident in your sexuality.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 9:35 PM on May 28, 2019 [13 favorites]
It's a little unclear whether you're talking about a fetish for actually doing/watching the waxing (some people are definitely into shaving as a form of play, so I guess this would be similar except a lot more painful and involving some awkward contortions) or just for your partner's mons/vulva being hairless. If the former, that's definitely a niche interest and you'd be best advised look for someone who shares the fetish.
If the latter, well, it's not uncommon, but it's definitely oppressive to expect it as a requirement, or pressure women to do it, or shame/nag them if they don't. I mean, there are absolutely women who choose to wax/shave/laser it all off as a matter of personal preference (although personal preferences are also absolutely influenced by cultural norms, so you can't remove the patriarchy from the equation). There are cultures and contexts in which it's the default norm, for men as well as women. But outside of those contexts, most straight men have no idea how much time, money, and physical discomfort body hair removal can require, or how oppressive it can feel when you're expected to regularly alter your body's appearance to be considered attractive or clean or fuckable.
Anyway, the baseline standard for conducting yourself decently in this matter is a) to politely express it as a preference, not an expectation, b) offer to pay at least part of the cost if you're talking about waxing/laser rather than shaving, c) respond to a "no" or even just an obvious lack of enthusiasm/interest with cheerful acceptance, and d) be willing to make reciprocal changes in your own appearance or grooming standards or sexual practices at your partner's (politely expressed) request. For some women, it will be a totally okay thing to ask for, and one they are already doing anyway for their own reasons. For others, it will be a dealbreaker, no matter how polite and respectful you are about asking, because some of us find waxing painful and tiresome, or get rashes or ingrowns, or we just don't like the way it looks and feels. And many will fall somewhere in between those points, because women are people, and people vary in their preferences. Basically, don't be a jerk about it, and remember that it's a thing many, many straight men of a certain age range/background are in fact jerks about, which is the reason the audience at the spoken word thing responded the way that did.
posted by karayel at 9:41 PM on May 28, 2019 [38 favorites]
If the latter, well, it's not uncommon, but it's definitely oppressive to expect it as a requirement, or pressure women to do it, or shame/nag them if they don't. I mean, there are absolutely women who choose to wax/shave/laser it all off as a matter of personal preference (although personal preferences are also absolutely influenced by cultural norms, so you can't remove the patriarchy from the equation). There are cultures and contexts in which it's the default norm, for men as well as women. But outside of those contexts, most straight men have no idea how much time, money, and physical discomfort body hair removal can require, or how oppressive it can feel when you're expected to regularly alter your body's appearance to be considered attractive or clean or fuckable.
Anyway, the baseline standard for conducting yourself decently in this matter is a) to politely express it as a preference, not an expectation, b) offer to pay at least part of the cost if you're talking about waxing/laser rather than shaving, c) respond to a "no" or even just an obvious lack of enthusiasm/interest with cheerful acceptance, and d) be willing to make reciprocal changes in your own appearance or grooming standards or sexual practices at your partner's (politely expressed) request. For some women, it will be a totally okay thing to ask for, and one they are already doing anyway for their own reasons. For others, it will be a dealbreaker, no matter how polite and respectful you are about asking, because some of us find waxing painful and tiresome, or get rashes or ingrowns, or we just don't like the way it looks and feels. And many will fall somewhere in between those points, because women are people, and people vary in their preferences. Basically, don't be a jerk about it, and remember that it's a thing many, many straight men of a certain age range/background are in fact jerks about, which is the reason the audience at the spoken word thing responded the way that did.
posted by karayel at 9:41 PM on May 28, 2019 [38 favorites]
I say, as long as it’s being framed as a request, not an expectation, and you’re not making her think she’s “less than” if she doesn’t want to, you’re probably fine.
I disagree with this as general advice. I mean, yes, some women will not be bothered by a request to wax - as you say, you weren't when it was requested the right way. But I don't think that is true of all women, and it would not be true for me, if I was ever in that situation.
These preferences don't exist in a vacuum. They can't be divorced from the oppressive, patriarchal culture that they are a part of. Grooming is a very personal topic, and women are shamed coming and going; they're shamed for not removing pubic hair, called dirty and unhygienic and gross, but they're shamed for removing it too, because there's no neutral way to be a woman, and no way to escape judgment. I personally couldn't experience a request to remove my pubic hair as something ... independent ... from all of that.
There are some women who are embarrassed to go to the gynecologist because of their pubic hair! Imagine a woman apologizing to her doctor because she isn't freshly waxed and maybe you will start to get the sense of how deep the shame can run sometimes.
You need to carefully consider your relationships and whether it's worth asking. Keep in mind that even a polite request is a form of pressure, because now you know: Your partner also doesn't like your pubic hair. If you decide that it is worth asking, pay close attention to the advice in this thread about how to ask with the least amount of pressure and judgment implied.
You also need to keep in mind that waxing itself is expensive, time-consuming, and painful. It's a pretty big request, it's not a minor one. Many doctors advise against it because of the risk of irritation and infection - especially in women who have conditions that make them more prone to skin infections. You don't say what your own grooming habits are, but I don't think you should ask at all unless you offer to make it mutual: that you will both get waxed. And I don't mean as a reluctant "hey baby I'll do it if you do it" quid pro quo. She might not care, but at least it shows that you are happy to go as far as you're asking her to go.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 10:18 PM on May 28, 2019 [89 favorites]
I disagree with this as general advice. I mean, yes, some women will not be bothered by a request to wax - as you say, you weren't when it was requested the right way. But I don't think that is true of all women, and it would not be true for me, if I was ever in that situation.
These preferences don't exist in a vacuum. They can't be divorced from the oppressive, patriarchal culture that they are a part of. Grooming is a very personal topic, and women are shamed coming and going; they're shamed for not removing pubic hair, called dirty and unhygienic and gross, but they're shamed for removing it too, because there's no neutral way to be a woman, and no way to escape judgment. I personally couldn't experience a request to remove my pubic hair as something ... independent ... from all of that.
There are some women who are embarrassed to go to the gynecologist because of their pubic hair! Imagine a woman apologizing to her doctor because she isn't freshly waxed and maybe you will start to get the sense of how deep the shame can run sometimes.
You need to carefully consider your relationships and whether it's worth asking. Keep in mind that even a polite request is a form of pressure, because now you know: Your partner also doesn't like your pubic hair. If you decide that it is worth asking, pay close attention to the advice in this thread about how to ask with the least amount of pressure and judgment implied.
You also need to keep in mind that waxing itself is expensive, time-consuming, and painful. It's a pretty big request, it's not a minor one. Many doctors advise against it because of the risk of irritation and infection - especially in women who have conditions that make them more prone to skin infections. You don't say what your own grooming habits are, but I don't think you should ask at all unless you offer to make it mutual: that you will both get waxed. And I don't mean as a reluctant "hey baby I'll do it if you do it" quid pro quo. She might not care, but at least it shows that you are happy to go as far as you're asking her to go.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 10:18 PM on May 28, 2019 [89 favorites]
I wouldn’t ask someone who isn’t already waxing to do it. It’s painful and expensive and the upkeep required (exfoliating and caring for the skin to prevent ingrown hairs, etc) is not insignificant. If you’re with a partner who already is inclined, I think you could tip the scales in your favor by covering the cost.
I would pause before asking someone who isn’t already doing major grooming/waxing to do it. You won’t be able to take it back and it could easily make your partner feel like she’s not enough of a turn on or that your preferences are different from what she has to offer. For many, it could lead to inhibition and emotional discomfort during sex or them feeling weirdly pressured to do something they’re not already interested in doing.
It isn’t that what you prefer is somehow completely wrong or oppressive, after all, many women prefer it as well. It’s just that requesting something that’s painful, expensive, and requires a lot of upkeep is asking a not insignificant thing. Plus, a large number of women have had not great partners who have made a big issue of hair removal in ways that are gross and extremely disrespectful. It’s not a benign request.
The suggestion that you go get a manzillian (everything off, from front to back) isn’t absurd. It can be illuminating to understand, first hand, what genital waxing is like. The good and the bad.
posted by quince at 10:21 PM on May 28, 2019 [30 favorites]
I would pause before asking someone who isn’t already doing major grooming/waxing to do it. You won’t be able to take it back and it could easily make your partner feel like she’s not enough of a turn on or that your preferences are different from what she has to offer. For many, it could lead to inhibition and emotional discomfort during sex or them feeling weirdly pressured to do something they’re not already interested in doing.
It isn’t that what you prefer is somehow completely wrong or oppressive, after all, many women prefer it as well. It’s just that requesting something that’s painful, expensive, and requires a lot of upkeep is asking a not insignificant thing. Plus, a large number of women have had not great partners who have made a big issue of hair removal in ways that are gross and extremely disrespectful. It’s not a benign request.
The suggestion that you go get a manzillian (everything off, from front to back) isn’t absurd. It can be illuminating to understand, first hand, what genital waxing is like. The good and the bad.
posted by quince at 10:21 PM on May 28, 2019 [30 favorites]
I mean, yes, some women will not be bothered by a request to wax - as you say, you weren't when it was requested the right way. But I don't think that is true of all women, and it would not be true for me, if I was ever in that situation.
At the risk of turning this into chatfilter, that’s not really what I said. In fact I said that I absolutely could not be asked this in a positive way, due to what it would bring up for me. But that I thought some women might be fine with it. And I specifically said that it needed to be done in a way that wouldn’t make the woman feel bad about her body if she declined.
There is a difference between “Hey, would you be into waxing?” and “I prefer waxed vulvas.”
posted by greermahoney at 10:38 PM on May 28, 2019
At the risk of turning this into chatfilter, that’s not really what I said. In fact I said that I absolutely could not be asked this in a positive way, due to what it would bring up for me. But that I thought some women might be fine with it. And I specifically said that it needed to be done in a way that wouldn’t make the woman feel bad about her body if she declined.
There is a difference between “Hey, would you be into waxing?” and “I prefer waxed vulvas.”
posted by greermahoney at 10:38 PM on May 28, 2019
I would pause before asking someone who isn’t already doing major grooming/waxing to do it.
Agreed; you should assume that any adult, sexually-active woman dating in a cultural setting where genital hair removal is a thing lots of people do has already spent some time and effort considering the matter, and figured out their own stance. And if it's still unclear once you've gotten intimate, you can ask what their preferences are (being mindful that they may have some negative past experiences of the sort people have described in this thread). Personally, I would be fine with someone bringing it up as a request (politely etc, as detailed above) if we were already involved and were having a conversation about mutual interests/desires/fetishes/things we might want to try, although my answer would still probably be no. However, I would be extremely annoyed and put off by seeing it expressed or demanded in an online profile (and yes, men do that) or brought up on a first date. (The etiquette would be different if it was a profile on a fetish-specific site, which is what you should do if it is a dealbreaker-level thing that you really want a potential partner to be willing to do: advertise it in a context where people are advertising those kind of specific desires, so people who are not compatible with you can swipe or click accordingly).
posted by karayel at 10:44 PM on May 28, 2019 [6 favorites]
Agreed; you should assume that any adult, sexually-active woman dating in a cultural setting where genital hair removal is a thing lots of people do has already spent some time and effort considering the matter, and figured out their own stance. And if it's still unclear once you've gotten intimate, you can ask what their preferences are (being mindful that they may have some negative past experiences of the sort people have described in this thread). Personally, I would be fine with someone bringing it up as a request (politely etc, as detailed above) if we were already involved and were having a conversation about mutual interests/desires/fetishes/things we might want to try, although my answer would still probably be no. However, I would be extremely annoyed and put off by seeing it expressed or demanded in an online profile (and yes, men do that) or brought up on a first date. (The etiquette would be different if it was a profile on a fetish-specific site, which is what you should do if it is a dealbreaker-level thing that you really want a potential partner to be willing to do: advertise it in a context where people are advertising those kind of specific desires, so people who are not compatible with you can swipe or click accordingly).
posted by karayel at 10:44 PM on May 28, 2019 [6 favorites]
And I specifically said that it needed to be done in a way that wouldn’t make the woman feel bad about her body if she declined.
I'm sorry I misinterpreted you. I thought you were comparing experiences you had, some that were fine and some that were not. I also think some of my comment came across as directed at you when I intended it to be directed to the asker - this is stuff you clearly already know. I only disagreed with that specific part.
If it wasn't clear, my point is that for a lot of women there isn't a way to ask that wouldn't make her feel bad about her body (or angry, or betrayed, or wary, etc etc).
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 10:48 PM on May 28, 2019 [6 favorites]
I'm sorry I misinterpreted you. I thought you were comparing experiences you had, some that were fine and some that were not. I also think some of my comment came across as directed at you when I intended it to be directed to the asker - this is stuff you clearly already know. I only disagreed with that specific part.
If it wasn't clear, my point is that for a lot of women there isn't a way to ask that wouldn't make her feel bad about her body (or angry, or betrayed, or wary, etc etc).
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 10:48 PM on May 28, 2019 [6 favorites]
is saying you like waxing on your partner a really oppressive thing to be doing?
Speaking as a man frequently distressed by the sheer amount of work this culture demands that women put into personal presentation and grooming before affording them even such minimal respect as I can get by just showering and dressing and showing up, I'm voting Yes if you're saying that to somebody who has not already waxed because they felt like it before you even arrived in their life.
And that goes at least triple if you're not similarly waxed yourself.
posted by flabdablet at 11:01 PM on May 28, 2019 [32 favorites]
Speaking as a man frequently distressed by the sheer amount of work this culture demands that women put into personal presentation and grooming before affording them even such minimal respect as I can get by just showering and dressing and showing up, I'm voting Yes if you're saying that to somebody who has not already waxed because they felt like it before you even arrived in their life.
And that goes at least triple if you're not similarly waxed yourself.
posted by flabdablet at 11:01 PM on May 28, 2019 [32 favorites]
Just as a datapoint that might help you navigate this with a partner: if I were with a man who cared a lot about the status of my pubic hair and really enjoyed a hairless vulva, but he was also willing to, for example... drive me to the appointment, sit in the waiting room, pay for it, and maybe take me out for ice cream after?
I'd be much more accommodating and not feel like I was being patriarchally oppressed, because it wouldn't be something I have to just go out of my way to do for him -- he'd be taking on the economic burden and taking as much time out of his day as me, which would make me feel like it was something we were doing rather than something he was demanding I do.
Just a thought.
posted by gloriouslyincandescent at 11:36 PM on May 28, 2019 [17 favorites]
I'd be much more accommodating and not feel like I was being patriarchally oppressed, because it wouldn't be something I have to just go out of my way to do for him -- he'd be taking on the economic burden and taking as much time out of his day as me, which would make me feel like it was something we were doing rather than something he was demanding I do.
Just a thought.
posted by gloriouslyincandescent at 11:36 PM on May 28, 2019 [17 favorites]
Mod note: Quick Reminder: Ask Metafilter is not for debating or arguing with other commenters or general discussion between/among commenters. Please focus on addressing the OP directly and helping them productively. It doesn't matter if someone else's advice is not the same as what you offer – it's not a vote, but a collection of various ideas and suggestions.
posted by taz (staff) at 11:38 PM on May 28, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by taz (staff) at 11:38 PM on May 28, 2019 [1 favorite]
Yeah, I mean....no one is ever going to think you are a jerk if you just keep your opinions about someone else's pubic hair to yourself. If you express a preference someone about it -- especially one that requires time, money, effort, and literal physical pain for her, over and over and over again -- you're taking a risk that she's going to think that this is controlling, none of your business, and potentially a sign that you're kind of a shithead. "I love it when a woman is fully waxed" is not ever going to be interpreted as particularly woke feminist statement from a dude no matter how you slice it.
posted by Countess Sandwich at 11:49 PM on May 28, 2019 [28 favorites]
posted by Countess Sandwich at 11:49 PM on May 28, 2019 [28 favorites]
To answer your question more directly. Yes. Any grooming or physical expectations on a partner are often based in oppressive social culture. It's especially prevalent among women's body hair and what is thought of as clean or feminine or sexy. And sure, people have preferences of body type or hair color or whatever! But I think we need to do better at exploring our preferences or turn ons and see where society is informing them that may be unfair.
It's important to note when exploring your feelings and listening to others here that someone's preference may change. I know my body hair preferences have changed majorly as I've aged. It's one thing when a kink is a mutual (or solo) activity. It's another when it's how someone manages their own body.
But as an example. At 14 I was asked by my friend if I shaved my pubic hair. My face turned red and I said, "Uh. No. Why?" To which she replied, "Well, it's better when you're on your period and guys like it way better when you do. They think hair is gross."
At 14 I went home and grabbed my razor and shaved, feeling ashamed of my body even though I wasn't interested in sex yet. At 14 I sobbed feeling guilt and resentment and shame throwing out a pile of hair. At 14 my body hair was sexualized in a negative way. And those feelings continued for YEARS! Apologizing for not shaving yet to men. Panicking about shaving before wearing swimwear. Even still being so astonished that when I grew it out, my husband was cool with it. I mean, he should be cool with it. It's my body. But years of upbringing still told me that he may be disgusted by it.
That's where those feelings are coming from that you heard at that event.
posted by Crystalinne at 11:56 PM on May 28, 2019 [42 favorites]
It's important to note when exploring your feelings and listening to others here that someone's preference may change. I know my body hair preferences have changed majorly as I've aged. It's one thing when a kink is a mutual (or solo) activity. It's another when it's how someone manages their own body.
But as an example. At 14 I was asked by my friend if I shaved my pubic hair. My face turned red and I said, "Uh. No. Why?" To which she replied, "Well, it's better when you're on your period and guys like it way better when you do. They think hair is gross."
At 14 I went home and grabbed my razor and shaved, feeling ashamed of my body even though I wasn't interested in sex yet. At 14 I sobbed feeling guilt and resentment and shame throwing out a pile of hair. At 14 my body hair was sexualized in a negative way. And those feelings continued for YEARS! Apologizing for not shaving yet to men. Panicking about shaving before wearing swimwear. Even still being so astonished that when I grew it out, my husband was cool with it. I mean, he should be cool with it. It's my body. But years of upbringing still told me that he may be disgusted by it.
That's where those feelings are coming from that you heard at that event.
posted by Crystalinne at 11:56 PM on May 28, 2019 [42 favorites]
I'm a woman and it would 100% put me off if someone came out and asked me to wax, even if it was just a 'request'. I would see it as a huge red flag. Just letting you know as a data point.
Sometimes I shave, sometimes I don't, but it is something that I decide, and whenever I have asked my husband about it he has always said he doesn't care in the least either way. Likewise, I don't care at all what he does with his copious amounts of body hair!
posted by thereader at 12:05 AM on May 29, 2019 [21 favorites]
Sometimes I shave, sometimes I don't, but it is something that I decide, and whenever I have asked my husband about it he has always said he doesn't care in the least either way. Likewise, I don't care at all what he does with his copious amounts of body hair!
posted by thereader at 12:05 AM on May 29, 2019 [21 favorites]
there's no neutral way to be a woman, and no way to escape judgment
This hit me hard today for some reason. Wow.
Yeah- it's a very fraught request to make, so think carefully.
posted by I_Love_Bananas at 2:07 AM on May 29, 2019 [14 favorites]
This hit me hard today for some reason. Wow.
Yeah- it's a very fraught request to make, so think carefully.
posted by I_Love_Bananas at 2:07 AM on May 29, 2019 [14 favorites]
Yeah, I don't think there's any way to put it that doesn't sound like the patriarchy talking out of your mouth.
Maybe because it is.
posted by inexorably_forward at 2:22 AM on May 29, 2019 [18 favorites]
Maybe because it is.
posted by inexorably_forward at 2:22 AM on May 29, 2019 [18 favorites]
I will speak only to my own experience, but perhaps that will give you insight into future partners. I don't remove body hair from anywhere except my face. And I am hairy. Since I was 8 years old, I have dealt with comments about my body hair from family, friends, and strangers. I don't think it's uncommon for women to start hearing about their body hair when they are children. (See for example, this episode of Unladylike.) After years and years and years of removing body hair, I just stopped after having my first child. My body did this amazing thing for me and for our family. I don't want to be at war with it. I don't want to treat it like an unruly lawn, something that needs to be tamped down and controlled.
I am also aware that "no hair" is a common sexual desire and it's something I have discussed with my husband to understand his preferences.
I'm sure many women have a much more casual relationship with body hair than I do. But it's possible your partners have been hearing critique of their body hair for years and years and years. And I am almost certain that all women are aware that there is a preference for no body hair.
For more on Pubes, you might also be interested in this episode from The Cut.
posted by CMcG at 3:24 AM on May 29, 2019 [5 favorites]
I am also aware that "no hair" is a common sexual desire and it's something I have discussed with my husband to understand his preferences.
I'm sure many women have a much more casual relationship with body hair than I do. But it's possible your partners have been hearing critique of their body hair for years and years and years. And I am almost certain that all women are aware that there is a preference for no body hair.
For more on Pubes, you might also be interested in this episode from The Cut.
posted by CMcG at 3:24 AM on May 29, 2019 [5 favorites]
Worth noting that the patriarchy talks out of our mouths not because we are men, but because we have internalized its norms. Women are every bit as susceptible to doing that, as evidenced by Crystalinne's friend:
The toxic behaviours that boys get taught to think of as "what girls want" are passed on in much the same way. There's every chance that guys who do think that hair is gross and have no compunction about saying so are thinking and doing that because they've been informed in no uncertain terms by their 14 year old friends that they're supposed to, because failure to condemn women's hairiness strongly enough marks a guy as "weird".
There are plenty of guys who share my own preference for gloriously untamed ungroomed growth but we're simply assumed not to be the majority (on no better basis, I suspect, than that if we were, what's currently fashionable in porn would make no sense) so we just get erased and the whole rotten edifice of body-part insecurity just stays standing.
Which puts you in a difficult position if, having thought the thing through properly, you do have a genuine preference for whatever is currently conventional. In your shoes, the policy I would be adopting is to stay quiet about such preferences unless explicitly asked about them.
all we are saying is give fleece a chance
posted by flabdablet at 3:46 AM on May 29, 2019 [16 favorites]
At 14 I was asked by my friend if I shaved my pubic hair. My face turned red and I said, "Uh. No. Why?" To which she replied, "Well, it's better when you're on your period and guys like it way better when you do. They think hair is gross."This kind of reduction of a vast spectrum of personal preferences to a blanket statement about "what guys like", along with the tacit assumption that "what guys like" is infinitely more important than one's own autonomy is, to my way of thinking, the essential mechanism of internalized oppression.
The toxic behaviours that boys get taught to think of as "what girls want" are passed on in much the same way. There's every chance that guys who do think that hair is gross and have no compunction about saying so are thinking and doing that because they've been informed in no uncertain terms by their 14 year old friends that they're supposed to, because failure to condemn women's hairiness strongly enough marks a guy as "weird".
There are plenty of guys who share my own preference for gloriously untamed ungroomed growth but we're simply assumed not to be the majority (on no better basis, I suspect, than that if we were, what's currently fashionable in porn would make no sense) so we just get erased and the whole rotten edifice of body-part insecurity just stays standing.
Which puts you in a difficult position if, having thought the thing through properly, you do have a genuine preference for whatever is currently conventional. In your shoes, the policy I would be adopting is to stay quiet about such preferences unless explicitly asked about them.
all we are saying is give fleece a chance
posted by flabdablet at 3:46 AM on May 29, 2019 [16 favorites]
If a partner asked me to change up my body hair situation, I would take it as a potential red flag. On its own it wouldn't be a deal breaker - I'd decline to do it but I absolutely do get that our sexual desires don't always line up with our politics. Mine don't either in a different way, and hell, we could have a great conversation about that! But it would get me thinking and closely paying attention to whether there are other ways in which that partner doesn't respect my decisions about my own body, or doesn't understand the time/effort/pain involved in other requests they make of me. A partner could partially defuse this by making the request in a way that makes it clear they understand some of the things other posters have discussed. But I still wouldn't do it. I'm a grown ass woman and I've long since decided what I prefer to do about my body hair, and I'm not interested in changing that up in any way that's painful or involves strangers up in my business.
posted by Stacey at 3:51 AM on May 29, 2019 [5 favorites]
posted by Stacey at 3:51 AM on May 29, 2019 [5 favorites]
If you like it, and your partner likes it, who cares how other people perceive it? It's none of their business. In my person opinion you can spiral yourself into a tornado of worry by overthinking shit like this. Live your life, do what you like. You aren't hurting anyone either way.
posted by Patapsco Mike at 4:04 AM on May 29, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by Patapsco Mike at 4:04 AM on May 29, 2019 [2 favorites]
Most any woman you meet will have considered waxing already, so if she doesn’t wax she’ll have decided against it for her own reasons (which may be strong ones or may be a mild preference or may be something like “I want to but I can’t afford it”). The second you ask about waxing, you risk her feeling bad about her body and the way you see her. It’s very personal and we hear the message loud and clear that our bodies are gross the way they are. Even though you aren’t saying that, and no matter how skillfully you frame it, many women will still hear that in your words. That’s why the women at the performance were cheering, in rejection of this feeling.
But a lot of women still wax - if this really is important to you, you’d do better to find a woman who already waxes rather than try to convert a woman who doesn’t.
posted by sallybrown at 4:15 AM on May 29, 2019 [21 favorites]
But a lot of women still wax - if this really is important to you, you’d do better to find a woman who already waxes rather than try to convert a woman who doesn’t.
posted by sallybrown at 4:15 AM on May 29, 2019 [21 favorites]
People are turned on by all kinds of things, and you should not feel shame for being turned on by a very mainstream preference. You basically have to go out of your way to locate pornography where women don't wax. Which itself is actually part of the problem!
I've both been asked and pressured to do this. For me, there is really only one way for you to express this preference that will not be a problem for me. If it was brought up in the context of a discussion about what turned us on, and you said something like "I find waxing really sexy," I would file that information away in my brain. I might do it on a special occasion.
But since maintaining my body to suit this preference costs $60 a month; several hours of time (I have to make the appointment, remember it, drive there, wait, have it done, drive home - oh, and since I have moved since I've last done it, I would also have to spend time finding someone who's good at doing this, because those chain wax centers have given me infections in the past); is painful; puts me in a vulnerable position during the procedure; and is actually risky to my personal health (remember that infection I mentioned?)... being asked to do this does bother me. It does feel oppressive to me. Some women may not feel this way! But I do, and others in this thread do, and women you date also may.
I think that you need to really know and understand your partner long before you are making requests or expressing desires about body modification. Your preference is not shameful, but it is just that: a preference. It is not more important than someone's bodily autonomy. So treat the subject with care.
posted by sockermom at 4:57 AM on May 29, 2019 [21 favorites]
I've both been asked and pressured to do this. For me, there is really only one way for you to express this preference that will not be a problem for me. If it was brought up in the context of a discussion about what turned us on, and you said something like "I find waxing really sexy," I would file that information away in my brain. I might do it on a special occasion.
But since maintaining my body to suit this preference costs $60 a month; several hours of time (I have to make the appointment, remember it, drive there, wait, have it done, drive home - oh, and since I have moved since I've last done it, I would also have to spend time finding someone who's good at doing this, because those chain wax centers have given me infections in the past); is painful; puts me in a vulnerable position during the procedure; and is actually risky to my personal health (remember that infection I mentioned?)... being asked to do this does bother me. It does feel oppressive to me. Some women may not feel this way! But I do, and others in this thread do, and women you date also may.
I think that you need to really know and understand your partner long before you are making requests or expressing desires about body modification. Your preference is not shameful, but it is just that: a preference. It is not more important than someone's bodily autonomy. So treat the subject with care.
posted by sockermom at 4:57 AM on May 29, 2019 [21 favorites]
Most any woman you meet will have considered waxing already, so if she doesn’t wax she’ll have decided against it for her own reasons (which may be strong ones or may be a mild preference or may be something like “I want to but I can’t afford it”). The second you ask about waxing, you risk her feeling bad about her body and the way you see her. It’s very personal and we hear the message loud and clear that our bodies are gross the way they are.
This!
I feel like you're maybe underestimating the degree to which waxing or otherwise removing pubic hair is already the path of least resistance in our society, at least among my age cohort (millenial). It's not a niche desire of yours, it's totally mainstream. So, no matter how you present your request it's going to be a part of the larger socoetal message that "ew, body hair is gross on a woman." Your partner has already heard that message, considered it, and has decided for whatever reason to ignore it.
posted by geegollygosh at 5:55 AM on May 29, 2019 [24 favorites]
This!
I feel like you're maybe underestimating the degree to which waxing or otherwise removing pubic hair is already the path of least resistance in our society, at least among my age cohort (millenial). It's not a niche desire of yours, it's totally mainstream. So, no matter how you present your request it's going to be a part of the larger socoetal message that "ew, body hair is gross on a woman." Your partner has already heard that message, considered it, and has decided for whatever reason to ignore it.
posted by geegollygosh at 5:55 AM on May 29, 2019 [24 favorites]
is saying you like waxing on your partner a really oppressive thing to be doing?
Agree with so much above. I consider it oppressive enough that I wrote about my pubic grooming in my online dating profile to screen out men who would request this of me. It worked beautifully: Several men took the time to write me how disgusting I was, a dog, a traitor to my sex, etc. I learned before even bothering to meet them that our values do not remotely align, and not to waste my time.
FWIW, I'm a cis het woman presenting as female who turns 50 this year. All of the above happened in 2008. Most of the men who wrote to condemn me reported their ages as 40+.
posted by ImproviseOrDie at 6:00 AM on May 29, 2019 [25 favorites]
Agree with so much above. I consider it oppressive enough that I wrote about my pubic grooming in my online dating profile to screen out men who would request this of me. It worked beautifully: Several men took the time to write me how disgusting I was, a dog, a traitor to my sex, etc. I learned before even bothering to meet them that our values do not remotely align, and not to waste my time.
FWIW, I'm a cis het woman presenting as female who turns 50 this year. All of the above happened in 2008. Most of the men who wrote to condemn me reported their ages as 40+.
posted by ImproviseOrDie at 6:00 AM on May 29, 2019 [25 favorites]
I've dumped a guy for presuming to "ask" me how to groom my pubic hair. I advise all women to do the same without hesitation, if they feel like it.
Why? Because I have my hair the way I WANT IT. If I DIDN'T, or I want your OPINION, I will ASK.
posted by Dressed to Kill at 6:49 AM on May 29, 2019 [17 favorites]
Why? Because I have my hair the way I WANT IT. If I DIDN'T, or I want your OPINION, I will ASK.
posted by Dressed to Kill at 6:49 AM on May 29, 2019 [17 favorites]
Think of it this way: Would you ask your partner to only get a pixie haircuts or to wear only high-heeled shoes, or to only wear a certain shade of lipstick, or to get regular gel manicures in a certain specific shade? If the answer to any of those is "No, that's weird and borderline controlling" then you have your answer.
Add to the above weird-creepies the fact that pubic hair is even more fraught than head hair styles because one big reason people (people with all ranges of genitals) give for preferring waxed pubic regions is "cleanliness." As in, it's dirty to have pubic hair and it's ESPECIALLY dirty for a person with a vulva to have pubic hair (because vulvas are dirty, smelly, and gross when not being used in service to a person with a penis). So to expand our pixie cut analogy, imagine asking a person to get a pixie cut for you because you suspect her long hair might be dirty and filled with lice. That's what being asked to wax sounds like to a woman who is not already doing it. It might not be what you intend, but given the current cultural zeitgeist around body hair, it's what's going to be heard.
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:05 AM on May 29, 2019 [16 favorites]
Add to the above weird-creepies the fact that pubic hair is even more fraught than head hair styles because one big reason people (people with all ranges of genitals) give for preferring waxed pubic regions is "cleanliness." As in, it's dirty to have pubic hair and it's ESPECIALLY dirty for a person with a vulva to have pubic hair (because vulvas are dirty, smelly, and gross when not being used in service to a person with a penis). So to expand our pixie cut analogy, imagine asking a person to get a pixie cut for you because you suspect her long hair might be dirty and filled with lice. That's what being asked to wax sounds like to a woman who is not already doing it. It might not be what you intend, but given the current cultural zeitgeist around body hair, it's what's going to be heard.
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:05 AM on May 29, 2019 [16 favorites]
It's not bad per se. It's OK to have a fetish. It's OK to share that fetish with your partner and it's OK for them to chose to go along with that fetish to make their partner happy or because they too like that fetish. It's also OK to go, hey I love giving you oral but if you trimmed your pubes it's be so much easier, that's called communication. It's only oppressive if you demand they do it, won't have sex with them if they don't do it or expect it to be done because it turns you on.
Like pretty much every fetish, this sort of thing works better if you can find a partner that already likes the same thing you do so is happy to do it. Demands & expectations are the problem here not open & honest communication about sexual desires with a willing partner.
posted by wwax at 7:41 AM on May 29, 2019 [1 favorite]
Like pretty much every fetish, this sort of thing works better if you can find a partner that already likes the same thing you do so is happy to do it. Demands & expectations are the problem here not open & honest communication about sexual desires with a willing partner.
posted by wwax at 7:41 AM on May 29, 2019 [1 favorite]
A consensual desire isn't good/bad. It just is.
But not all desires intersect with consent the same way. Wanting something and asking for something are not the same thing. Especially in cis-het relations.
I would not ask a partner to wax, just as I wouldn't ask a partner to become a domestic sub. If I wan't someone who is a domestic Sub or who maintains a particular grooming level I look for a partner who already practices that.
Because all kink or desire aside, me as a butch-man-looking person asking a person to cook or clean for me because it would be hot is just not cool. Because that dynamic already exists and has a lot of baggage around it. There is already pressure there. The Ask can impinge on consent.
If it's a deal-breaker for you only find partners who maintain their body that way.
If it's not a dealbreaker, don't mention it.
posted by French Fry at 7:42 AM on May 29, 2019 [3 favorites]
But not all desires intersect with consent the same way. Wanting something and asking for something are not the same thing. Especially in cis-het relations.
I would not ask a partner to wax, just as I wouldn't ask a partner to become a domestic sub. If I wan't someone who is a domestic Sub or who maintains a particular grooming level I look for a partner who already practices that.
Because all kink or desire aside, me as a butch-man-looking person asking a person to cook or clean for me because it would be hot is just not cool. Because that dynamic already exists and has a lot of baggage around it. There is already pressure there. The Ask can impinge on consent.
If it's a deal-breaker for you only find partners who maintain their body that way.
If it's not a dealbreaker, don't mention it.
posted by French Fry at 7:42 AM on May 29, 2019 [3 favorites]
Yeah, I once dated a guy and the first (and only!) time we slept together, he looked at me and said, and here I quote, "Why don't you keep it waxed?" I'm ashamed to say that I didn't put on my pants and walk out, but I should have. That's the sort of thing the spoken-word artist was talking about, and it happens far more than you'd think. And yeah, it's oppressive because, as many people have noted above, it says that the man's aesthetic whims are more important that the woman's own preferences about her body.
posted by holborne at 8:18 AM on May 29, 2019 [17 favorites]
posted by holborne at 8:18 AM on May 29, 2019 [17 favorites]
Men requesting this when I was younger have contributed to my fucked-up body image. Only now as I near 40 would I have the courage to say “no.” And for me it would be the end of the relationship.
posted by peanut butter milkshake at 9:03 AM on May 29, 2019 [5 favorites]
posted by peanut butter milkshake at 9:03 AM on May 29, 2019 [5 favorites]
From what I can tell I’m unusually ambivalent about my body hair, and go through periods of waxing or not, depending on my whims. I tend to wax when I’m single, and I’ve encountered a few men who are kind of weirded out by it. My current partner doesn’t actually like it. I’ve done it a few times since we’ve been together, if I’m in the mood or an aesthetician friend needs a model or something.
I’ll say if my partner was into it and otherwise was very very good about treating me like the equal human that I am, I would be open to doing it more. The suggestion of paying for it and otherwise building it into a date or something is a good idea, because it’s expensive and appointments are time consuming. The discussion is really fraught, however, and I’m not even sure how to bring it up in a way that didn’t make me very skeptical. Doing it yourself would be very very good and I would think it’s inappropriate if you demanded it of a partner but didn’t have the same level of grooming yourself.
posted by jeweled accumulation at 9:15 AM on May 29, 2019
I’ll say if my partner was into it and otherwise was very very good about treating me like the equal human that I am, I would be open to doing it more. The suggestion of paying for it and otherwise building it into a date or something is a good idea, because it’s expensive and appointments are time consuming. The discussion is really fraught, however, and I’m not even sure how to bring it up in a way that didn’t make me very skeptical. Doing it yourself would be very very good and I would think it’s inappropriate if you demanded it of a partner but didn’t have the same level of grooming yourself.
posted by jeweled accumulation at 9:15 AM on May 29, 2019
I can't really see how anyone would or could take offense to being asked if they would consider it. There's nothing wrong with asking a partner if they'd consider doing something you'd really enjoy.
However, asking as an expectation is something completely different.
I don't personally see how it would be any different than asking a man to remove facial hair, but generally you wouldn't want to be redirecting them on their own prefered method of doing so. If they don't already wax, then as other posters have mentioned, they likely have their own reasons for not doing so. For example, on people who don't have fine, straight body hair, you're really asking them to acquire dozens upon dozens of ingrown hairs in a very sensitive area, so you know, some people might say no and not necessarily explain in detail why, even if they'd like to oblige.
posted by OnefortheLast at 9:19 AM on May 29, 2019
However, asking as an expectation is something completely different.
I don't personally see how it would be any different than asking a man to remove facial hair, but generally you wouldn't want to be redirecting them on their own prefered method of doing so. If they don't already wax, then as other posters have mentioned, they likely have their own reasons for not doing so. For example, on people who don't have fine, straight body hair, you're really asking them to acquire dozens upon dozens of ingrown hairs in a very sensitive area, so you know, some people might say no and not necessarily explain in detail why, even if they'd like to oblige.
posted by OnefortheLast at 9:19 AM on May 29, 2019
I can't really see how anyone would or could take offense to being asked if they would consider it. . . .
I don't personally see how it would be any different than asking a man to remove facial hair,
There are lots of explanations in this very thread, and even more on the wider web. It’s not comparable to asking a man to remove body hair because of the very long history of sexist policing of women’s bodies and treating women’s body hair as singularly gross.
posted by sallybrown at 9:24 AM on May 29, 2019 [35 favorites]
I don't personally see how it would be any different than asking a man to remove facial hair,
There are lots of explanations in this very thread, and even more on the wider web. It’s not comparable to asking a man to remove body hair because of the very long history of sexist policing of women’s bodies and treating women’s body hair as singularly gross.
posted by sallybrown at 9:24 AM on May 29, 2019 [35 favorites]
It's a fetish, right? So an order of magnitude different from the shit every woman has heard a snootful of from men, namely, "It's no big deal or anything, but I do slightly prefer [you to spend a ton of time and money and personal discomfort changing yourself into a non-mammal from the eyes down]." If you foreground and emphasize that it's a fetish and make it clear that it's not the same old boring bullshit but a fun new wild thing--and maybe one you'd be willing to be the one to pay for if her paying for it isn't part of the kink--then probably you'll find some women who'll be into it, too. I mean, if that's true: if it really is a fetish and not just "this is what I see in porn and think is normal." It can't be the thing everybody's describing above. If it is, uh, then, yes, it supersucks and if I were the woman, you'd join a small crew of namby-mouthed pukes I lost respect for and walked away from or, if I were already involved, dumped. If it's a kink, that'd be different for me. A kink is weird and interesting, not boring and disappointing. I might not go through with it, and almost certainly not more than once, but I wouldn't not consider it, and I wouldn't lose respect for you.
posted by Don Pepino at 9:36 AM on May 29, 2019 [4 favorites]
posted by Don Pepino at 9:36 AM on May 29, 2019 [4 favorites]
Mod note: A few deleted. AskMe isn't a place for back-and-forth debate between commenters. Please just address your constructive response to OP; and please don't add in a bunch of assumptions about OP's psychology. It's ok if answers disagree with each other, just make your own points and OP can consider for themselves the points people have made.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 10:02 AM on May 29, 2019
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 10:02 AM on May 29, 2019
There is a difference between “Hey, would you be into waxing?” and “I prefer waxed vulvas.”
No, there isn't. Just like there is no difference between saying, "Hey, would you be into losing 30 lbs?" and "I prefer thin women."
OP, yes, it really is oppressive to ask your female partner to even maybe-kinda-if-she-pleases consider removing her body hair .... or lose 50 lbs, or take her husband's last name upon getting married. It is oppressive to ask your femme presenting male partner to consider dressing more masculine because that turns you on more. It is oppressive to wonder if your black partner might consider lightening their skin and it's oppressive to share with them your fetish for straight hair. It's oppressive to tell your middle-class partner about your fantasy that they will surprise you with a diamond-studded steering wheel for the yacht you just bought, ya know??
IDK about considering this just another preference and no biggie. It would be nice if we were all spherical people traveling frictionless roads in a contextless void, but in our world, there are some loaded issues. Body hair is absolutely one of them.
Find a partner who waxes, if you need to, but don't reveal your preference to a partner who doesn't.
posted by MiraK at 11:28 AM on May 29, 2019 [13 favorites]
No, there isn't. Just like there is no difference between saying, "Hey, would you be into losing 30 lbs?" and "I prefer thin women."
OP, yes, it really is oppressive to ask your female partner to even maybe-kinda-if-she-pleases consider removing her body hair .... or lose 50 lbs, or take her husband's last name upon getting married. It is oppressive to ask your femme presenting male partner to consider dressing more masculine because that turns you on more. It is oppressive to wonder if your black partner might consider lightening their skin and it's oppressive to share with them your fetish for straight hair. It's oppressive to tell your middle-class partner about your fantasy that they will surprise you with a diamond-studded steering wheel for the yacht you just bought, ya know??
IDK about considering this just another preference and no biggie. It would be nice if we were all spherical people traveling frictionless roads in a contextless void, but in our world, there are some loaded issues. Body hair is absolutely one of them.
Find a partner who waxes, if you need to, but don't reveal your preference to a partner who doesn't.
posted by MiraK at 11:28 AM on May 29, 2019 [13 favorites]
I'm actually going to go way out on a limb here and disagree. Obviously I cannot speak for all women or even most women or even women who are not me. But the thing about your fetish that makes me feel like it's more okay is that it's a fetish. It's not a "preference", it's a thing you specifically like. It is by nature a special request.
What I don't like about standard body hair grooming rituals for women is the expectation that I will do it automatically, without complaint, as part of agreeing to a larger narrative that women aren't supposed to have body hair and that it's dirty and wrong. So any man without a specific fetish that comments on my body hair grooming is going to get an earful because he's approaching me from the angle of "you SHOULD do this thing" or "you're wrong for NOT doing this thing."
If we were dating and you said, hey, so, I know this is kind of a PITA, but I have a genuine sexual fetish for waxing and women who wax, and I'm happy to chip in $$ to help with the expense, and it would be such a turn-on if you got waxed for me, would you consider it? I would be like, Sure! Because you're recognizing that it's not an expectation, it's a special request to fulfill a very particular need, like bringing home your favorite meal, and just like I like giving partners presents, I like fulfilling special sexual requests (if I can and I'm comfortable doing so.) Obviously if I didn't want to, and you pushed it, that would be a dick move. Obviously if you just magically expected me not to have body hair all the time, that would also be a dick move. But as a sexual act that is part of a specific request, I actually find the interest in waxing far far less offensive than the unstated expectation that I will do it because that's how it's supposed to be.
Now, is your fetish itself a symptom of a society that has ingrained in you women are supposed to be hairless? Maybe, just in the same way that women with submission fetishes might be seen as symptomatic of a society that has ingrained in them women are supposed to be submissive. But while interrogating where kinks come from and how much of a desire is created by the culture around it has been interesting and worthwhile for me, it's never actually changed how I feel. I think, if you're going about this the right way, you're fine.
posted by WidgetAlley at 12:29 PM on May 29, 2019 [17 favorites]
What I don't like about standard body hair grooming rituals for women is the expectation that I will do it automatically, without complaint, as part of agreeing to a larger narrative that women aren't supposed to have body hair and that it's dirty and wrong. So any man without a specific fetish that comments on my body hair grooming is going to get an earful because he's approaching me from the angle of "you SHOULD do this thing" or "you're wrong for NOT doing this thing."
If we were dating and you said, hey, so, I know this is kind of a PITA, but I have a genuine sexual fetish for waxing and women who wax, and I'm happy to chip in $$ to help with the expense, and it would be such a turn-on if you got waxed for me, would you consider it? I would be like, Sure! Because you're recognizing that it's not an expectation, it's a special request to fulfill a very particular need, like bringing home your favorite meal, and just like I like giving partners presents, I like fulfilling special sexual requests (if I can and I'm comfortable doing so.) Obviously if I didn't want to, and you pushed it, that would be a dick move. Obviously if you just magically expected me not to have body hair all the time, that would also be a dick move. But as a sexual act that is part of a specific request, I actually find the interest in waxing far far less offensive than the unstated expectation that I will do it because that's how it's supposed to be.
Now, is your fetish itself a symptom of a society that has ingrained in you women are supposed to be hairless? Maybe, just in the same way that women with submission fetishes might be seen as symptomatic of a society that has ingrained in them women are supposed to be submissive. But while interrogating where kinks come from and how much of a desire is created by the culture around it has been interesting and worthwhile for me, it's never actually changed how I feel. I think, if you're going about this the right way, you're fine.
posted by WidgetAlley at 12:29 PM on May 29, 2019 [17 favorites]
^
That's what I was trying to say. Much better explained.
posted by Don Pepino at 12:41 PM on May 29, 2019
That's what I was trying to say. Much better explained.
posted by Don Pepino at 12:41 PM on May 29, 2019
Response by poster: Thank you, thank you all for these responses. The variety has really helped me to better understand, and has been a clear learning moment for me. I have a much better idea about how to move forward in good ways and in the context of all this.
I am also once again so appreciative to the AskMeFi community. I'm glad I was able to ask this here and not, say at a dinner party. Thanks everyone.
posted by miles1972 at 6:31 PM on May 29, 2019 [8 favorites]
I am also once again so appreciative to the AskMeFi community. I'm glad I was able to ask this here and not, say at a dinner party. Thanks everyone.
posted by miles1972 at 6:31 PM on May 29, 2019 [8 favorites]
If a man I was dating mentioned to me that he prefers vulvas to be waxed, no matter how casually or respectfully, I’d break up with him on the spot. In fact, I bring this up myself, within the first several dates. I ask if he likes things to be waxed, and if the answer is affirmative, nope, we will not be dating. I can’t imagine “preferring” someone I care about doing painful things to themselves, and I expect the same consideration. And I have no time or desire to feel like well, he’s with me now, but only till a waxed one comes along. No thanks. Prefer me as I am, or get going.
And no, I don’t see anything wrong with you wanting to have a partner who does this. But please save people like me some grief and look for those who are already doing it.
posted by LakeDream at 9:14 PM on May 29, 2019 [8 favorites]
And no, I don’t see anything wrong with you wanting to have a partner who does this. But please save people like me some grief and look for those who are already doing it.
posted by LakeDream at 9:14 PM on May 29, 2019 [8 favorites]
Asking your partner to wax is intrusive and not ok. It's not ok to ask someone to go do something extremely painful, quite expensive, time consuming and uncomfortable because it gets you off better. No. Sorry. There's no "ask culture" pass here: just asking for it is telling her that you don't like her genitals the way they are.
How do you know she isn't into waxing and wouldn't love it? BECAUSE SHE IS AN ADULT AND SHE ISN'T ALREADY DOING IT. Trust me, she isn't unaware of the option.
Go find someone who keeps hers waxed already.
posted by fingersandtoes at 1:27 PM on May 30, 2019 [6 favorites]
How do you know she isn't into waxing and wouldn't love it? BECAUSE SHE IS AN ADULT AND SHE ISN'T ALREADY DOING IT. Trust me, she isn't unaware of the option.
Go find someone who keeps hers waxed already.
posted by fingersandtoes at 1:27 PM on May 30, 2019 [6 favorites]
How do you know she isn't into waxing and wouldn't love it? BECAUSE SHE IS AN ADULT AND SHE ISN'T ALREADY DOING IT. Trust me, she isn't unaware of the option.
Yes, this! If she isn't already waxed it's because she doesn't want to be. Don't make the request. Take her as she is, waxed or not, and if you don't like how she is, find somebody else.
posted by sunflower16 at 3:09 AM on June 2, 2019 [1 favorite]
Yes, this! If she isn't already waxed it's because she doesn't want to be. Don't make the request. Take her as she is, waxed or not, and if you don't like how she is, find somebody else.
posted by sunflower16 at 3:09 AM on June 2, 2019 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
And yeah, it's unpleasant to be pressured by a man to do something that for many people causes infections that can kill you, disfigure you, or rack up substantial medical bills and lost work time.
I don't want to shame you for liking what you like, but that IS different from demanding it, and you wanting it/telling someone else to do it are very different things from just liking it if it happens to be a thing two people agree is aesthetically pleasing and biologically comfortable/feasible, and whether your opinion is desired or non-harmful will depend so much on that person specifically and you should work it out with them first whether it's healthy or safe to discuss.
posted by Lyn Never at 9:07 PM on May 28, 2019 [37 favorites]