Help solve a family argument

May 26, 2019 2:26 AM

When referring to an adult, unmarried woman by her title in a business context, would an American say Miss Smith, Mrs Smith or Ms Smith?

This isn't a serious argument, but I'd still like to be right. :D

My father-outlaw (late 50s, German-speaking Swiss with fluent English, did business with Texans for many years) says it would be Mrs Smith. He reckons they'd avoid 'Ms Smith' because it would sound too much like 'Miss Smith'.

I (mid 30s, British in Switzerland, not particularly businessy) say it would be Ms Smith, because 'Mrs' is (generally) only used for married women.

We agree that no one would say Miss Smith.

So, who's right? I'm interested in answers from anywhere in the USA, not just Texas, and more in what people actually say than what they ought to say according to ettiquette guides. Thanks!

posted by daisyk to Society & Culture (68 answers total)

Ms. Smith and more rarely Miss Smith. Mrs. is only for married women. (Grew up in Texas and Virginia, now in the PNW.)
posted by Mizu at 2:46 AM on May 26, 2019 [8 favorites]

I have never heard anyone seriously refer to someone that they knew wasn’t married as Mrs. (And Mrs. is often avoided entirely in a business setting.)

I definitely think it is a thing in some places, especially in the not-so-distant past, to assume that a 30ish women is married. So that could be where the idea that this is the default is coming from.
posted by catatethebird at 2:47 AM on May 26, 2019 [11 favorites]

I would say Ms. Smith. (29. Grew up in MT. Live in UT.)

I've only ever heard Mrs. for married women (or mistakenly assumed married and then sometimes had to make an somewhat awkward correction.) And Miss I've rarely heard in regular business context. I think when I have used it - it's been for teachers that were known to be unmarried or other people you routinely refer to by their last name and title.

In general I would assume it's more improper to assume someone is married or assign them a married title. It's already weird enough that our titles change with marriage. Overall I've seen a trend toward FirstName LastName rather than titles to avoid marriage, single, gender, etc. statuses.
posted by Crystalinne at 2:50 AM on May 26, 2019 [3 favorites]

Sounds like someone is projecting German usage of Frau on to English Mrs.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 3:18 AM on May 26, 2019 [32 favorites]

If an older man called me Mrs in a business setting, I would consider him outdated. I’m divorced, never changed my name, and have never used Mrs for myself. The whole idea of Ms was to take marital status out of the conversation. Plus, honestly, it’s up to the woman to decide how she wants to be addressed. Today, this issue seems to come up mostly in school settings, at least in the US Northeast, since few adults use anything other than first names with each other, and many kids say Ms, probably to avoid having to think about it.
posted by Sukey Says at 3:25 AM on May 26, 2019 [21 favorites]

It would be odd to use a title at all in the business settings I'm aware of. I work in SF for a Fortune 50 company based in the NY area. I have never heard/read any American refer to any other American by anything but their name. That includes across & within exec/lower-level conversations, and in sales/client relations. In fact, the literal only time I've seen titles used is when dealing with a German vendor.

That said, I literally recoiled at the idea that someone would purposefully call an unmarried woman "Mrs". I'm married and I would think it was (sightly) rude to be called anything but "Ms." This is definitely generational, but leave my personal life out of how you refer to me!
posted by brainmouse at 3:36 AM on May 26, 2019 [26 favorites]

In a business setting it is Ms. for all women. This honorific derives from Mistress (the female form of Mister) and was revived in the 20th century specifically as an honorific that does not reference marital status.
posted by slkinsey at 3:45 AM on May 26, 2019 [32 favorites]

Mrs. is reserved only for married women and it is presumptuous to assume a woman’s status, which is why Ms. exists. This is the entire reason that Gloria Steinem entitled her feminist magazine “Ms.” in the 70s. It was about establishing your own societal identity apart from your marital status, just as men are entitled to. Addressing an unmarried woman as Mrs. could be seen as VERY offensive to some American business women, given this context.
posted by pazazygeek at 3:46 AM on May 26, 2019 [18 favorites]

Sounds like someone is projecting German usage of Frau on to English Mrs.

I think this is it too - I work in Germany, and have had to explain to colleagues on multiple occasions that "Ms" is the proper translation of Frau, not "Mrs". Most correspondence in English that I get refers to me as Mrs. Even companies like Lufthansa get it wrong - their list of titles means choosing between Mr or Mrs with or without various academic titles.
posted by scorbet at 3:56 AM on May 26, 2019 [3 favorites]

Response by poster: Sounds like someone is projecting German usage of Frau on to English Mrs.

Hah, that's where this whole discussion started. I mentioned at dinner that a clueless German dude had earnestly tried to explain to me that 'Mrs' could be used for all women regardless of marital status, and that I'd told him how wrong he was. Then my father-outlaw said, "Oh, but in some circumstances you would use Mrs, because it would be rude to use Miss." Perplexingly, he didn't seem to have heard of Ms, despite being a sophisticated and worldly type of guy.
posted by daisyk at 4:24 AM on May 26, 2019 [4 favorites]

Yeah, calling an unmarried woman Mrs is kind of rude (speaking as one myself) - it carries an implication that you really should be married right now, so much so that it’s reasonable to just assume you are.

Ms all the way (or, as others have said, really just names without a title).
posted by penguin pie at 4:49 AM on May 26, 2019 [4 favorites]

What happened to fraulein?

I'm in my sixties, live in Georgia. The only time I hear Miss anymore is with a first name: for instance a teacher might be called Miss Susie by her students. I get called Miss Mareli by office staff, cashiers, and random others. Rarely even hear Mrs. much anymore, it's all Ms.
posted by mareli at 4:53 AM on May 26, 2019 [4 favorites]

I'm an unmarried woman in my 40s. I am rarely addressed with an honorific at work or anywhere else, but when I am, it's Ms. If I were ever addressed to my face as Mrs, I would correct the speaker.
posted by bunderful at 5:45 AM on May 26, 2019 [1 favorite]

Just for lording benefits — you are 100% correct.
posted by dame at 5:49 AM on May 26, 2019 [12 favorites]

What happened to fraulein?

I'm not a fluent German speaker, but my understanding is that over the last 50-plus years fraulein has developed even more of a diminutive sense, to the point that it would be actively offensive to seriously use it to refer to a young adult woman. Less like referring to her as "Miss" and more like referring to her as "Little Missy".
posted by firechicago at 5:54 AM on May 26, 2019 [3 favorites]

Yes, you are 100% correct. And interestingly enough, I feel like Ms. (Mizz) has lost some of its appeal among young women. All of the 20 somethings teachers at my school upon getting married, switch to Mrs., and wear it as a badge of honor, and correct people in the way my mother would always insist on Ms. and remind me that it was nobody's business if she was married or not.
posted by momochan at 5:54 AM on May 26, 2019 [4 favorites]

Miss and Mrs. are both retrograde, but common. It's a weapon of patriarchy just like anti-abortion legislation, and used by the same folks who support that kind of thing (and old folks who can't get their heads around modern ways). Using anything but Ms., ever, is (rightly) considered insulting by many people (see brainmouse's response above). In fact, using any kind of honorific is super problematic because you're often assuming someone's gender based on outward expression and you really shouldn't be doing that. Just speak to people respectfully and you don't need old-fashioned language hiccups.
posted by rikschell at 5:54 AM on May 26, 2019 [2 favorites]

And don't forget the married women who prefer (ahem - demand) to be addressed as Ms. (me and basically every married friend and business associate I can think of off the top of my head). I get very salty indeed if someone addresses me as Mrs. I am not my husband's property, which is what that implies (men don't change their prefix when they get married, only women are supposed to do that).
posted by cooker girl at 6:01 AM on May 26, 2019 [11 favorites]

Ms (pronounced "mizz") in a business context for all women, regardless of marital status, as marital status is not relevant in a business context. If the woman has a doctorate, it's pronounced "Doctor."
posted by basalganglia at 6:05 AM on May 26, 2019 [32 favorites]

I wonder if your father-in-law has trouble hearing the difference between an American "Miss" and "Ms," or even "Ms" and "Mrs"? It can be a pretty subtle difference. It jumps out at me as a native English speaker, but it wouldn't surprise me if it doesn't register as easily with someone who isn't.

Anyhow, I can't remember the last time that I referred to anyone as "Mrs," including women I know have taken their husbands' last names (they go by Ms LastName, same as everyone else). And I have never been referred to as "Mrs" in my life, thank god. That said, sometime during my twenties, strangers stopped addressing me as "Miss" and started addressing me as "Ma'am." I guess that could be the shift that your father-in-law is speaking about?
posted by rue72 at 6:09 AM on May 26, 2019 [5 favorites]

If the woman has a doctorate, it's pronounced "Doctor."

So much this. I have one unfortunate associate who is constantly trying to diminish another by addressing her as "Ms. Smith". "Oh, you mean Doctor Smith? "
posted by xedrik at 6:32 AM on May 26, 2019 [6 favorites]

It is generational, but we're now talking multiple generations. I'm in my early 50s, wouldn't dream of using Mrs. with someone unless I know for a fact they use/prefer it, and would be annoyed at anyone using it with me.
posted by BlahLaLa at 6:38 AM on May 26, 2019 [1 favorite]

I'm 36, born and raised in the US (Maryland), and I would say Ms.

I'm not sure where I get this from but I also have a reasonably strong gut feeling that if I know someone is married but has kept her own last name, Mrs is Wrong there too. I associate Mrs Lastname strongly with "Mrs HusbandsLastname."
posted by needs more cowbell at 6:49 AM on May 26, 2019 [5 favorites]

As a recently married 30-something, I confirm that all women are formally addresses as “Ms.”

I deal with writing and receiving proposals, and in this case formal business letters are addressed as “Mr. Smith” or “Ms. Smith”.

The only time I ever had someone address me as “Mrs.” was an acquaintance who I met with to chat about my industry as he’s looking for a job in it. I thought it was flat out oblivious to modern norms.

Outside of work I prefer to be known as Mrs.
posted by DoubleLune at 6:51 AM on May 26, 2019

Ms. Is the rule unless I know for a fact that the woman in question prefers Mrs. or Miss or is Dr. or Honorable or Reverend, or Rabbi or ...
posted by sciencegeek at 7:00 AM on May 26, 2019 [2 favorites]

I'm not sure where I get this from but I also have a reasonably strong gut feeling that if I know someone is married but has kept her own last name, Mrs is Wrong there too. I associate Mrs Lastname strongly with "Mrs HusbandsLastname."

Yes, even back when Mrs. was a thing, it was incorrect to use it with anything other than husband's last name. In fact, it was incorrect to use it with the woman's first name, too. So even if Smith was her husband's name, you weren't supposed to say "Mrs. Jane Smith" but rather "Mrs. John Smith."

This (the last name part, not the first name part) was an issue for the New York Times when they were still holding the line against Ms. Geraldine Ferraro who was a U.S. vice-presidential candidate who was married but used her own name left them without a style-guide-approved way to address her. I can't seem to find where I read about the new york times part, but this includes a discussion of the Geraldine Ferraro case.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 7:04 AM on May 26, 2019 [13 favorites]

Ms. is helpful, I think, because even if you know the marital status of the person you're talking about, it's still appropriate, because it doesn't relate to any given relationship state. It's like Mr. in that context, and I think unless someone requests a specific honorarium/title, it's good to go with the most neutral option.
posted by xingcat at 7:20 AM on May 26, 2019

The only time I’ve been called Mrs. was when I lived in Germany.

I agree that Ms. is the only appropriate term in a business situation (excepting Dr., etc.). One thing that I haven’t seen addressed in the answers is his reasoning that it’s hard to hear the difference between Miss and Ms. For native English speakers, this just isn’t hard. This may be a helpful example for him: in German, it’s hard for me, a native English speaker, to hear the difference between Stadt and Staat, even though it’s been slowly and carefully explained to me.
posted by FencingGal at 7:27 AM on May 26, 2019

Ms (pronounced "mizz") in a business context for all women, regardless of marital status, as marital status is not relevant in a business context. If the woman has a doctorate, it's pronounced "Doctor."

Ms. Is the rule unless I know for a fact that the woman in question prefers Mrs. or Miss or is Dr. or Honorable or Reverend, or Rabbi or ...

Agreed, and in fact the only workplace context in which I encounter "Mrs." these days, at all, is among K-12 teachers and staff.
posted by redfoxtail at 7:28 AM on May 26, 2019 [4 favorites]

And yet so many forms ask for "Miss," "Mrs.," "Mr.," and sometimes "Ms."

So even if Smith was her husband's name, you weren't supposed to say "Mrs. Jane Smith" but rather "Mrs. John Smith."
This. A woman may choose to keep her married name after a divorce (children with same last name, professional and academic history, etc.) but not choose to be addressed with her ex-husband's name. Ms. is correct, unless another title is appropriate within context -- Ms. Jane Smith socially, Dr. Jane Smith or General Jane Smith professionally.
posted by TrishaU at 7:29 AM on May 26, 2019 [1 favorite]

I default to Ms. We fought too damn hard for it & what it represents. I'd rather someone tell me they prefer Mrs than the other way around, in which case I will, I will call them whatever they prefer.
posted by wwax at 7:34 AM on May 26, 2019 [9 favorites]

I can't imagine an unmarried woman using Mrs. in any context except lying about her marital status.

(I was taught the difference between Ms, Miss, and Mrs when I was in elementary school in the US South in the '90s. However, all three honorifics as applied to teachers were pronounced "Miss." So a teacher would write her name on the board as Mrs. or Ms. Brown but introduce herself as Miss Brown.)
posted by zeptoweasel at 8:21 AM on May 26, 2019 [2 favorites]

Traditionally, Mrs. John Smith is the correct title for a married woman, as pointed out above. Mrs. Jane Smith, though, isn’t simply incorrect. It indicates a woman who is divorced.
posted by FencingGal at 8:29 AM on May 26, 2019 [5 favorites]

I wonder if your father-in-law has trouble hearing the difference between an American "Miss" and "Ms," or even "Ms" and "Mrs"? It can be a pretty subtle difference. It jumps out at me as a native English speaker, but it wouldn't surprise me if it doesn't register as easily with someone who isn't.

This was my thought too. Voicing of consonants in German tends to be dependent on position in a word, so that s (for example) is automatically pronounced like English [z] at the beginning of a word but like English [s] at the end of a word. I don't think German has any minimal pairs for [z]/[s] in final position, so the contrast may be hard for him to hear.
posted by aws17576 at 8:31 AM on May 26, 2019 [2 favorites]

It indicates a woman who is divorced.

Or widowed. Right? I think that's right. I work in fundraising/development and most of our donors of a certain age who are widows will request Mrs. Jane Smith vs. Mrs. John Smith. I wonder if there's a proper convention for that or if it simply developed that way.
posted by cooker girl at 8:32 AM on May 26, 2019 [2 favorites]

The French, as I heard, called a woman over 30, Mrs. It was supposedly a compliment, as surely a woman as lovely as you is married. This was how it was explained to me in the sixties.

Then also is the needless differentiation betwen married and unmarried women, as every person should be treated with equal care and respect in the workplace. This means hands off not just other men's property, but hands, eyes, words off everyone who labors for either themselves or their families. I wonder if there will be a resurgence of sexism? The actors got this taken care of in the last couple of years.

So in business almost everyone wears an identifying lanyard that identifies them as they wish to be named, titles included.
posted by Oyéah at 8:36 AM on May 26, 2019

I didn't take by husband's last name. So when I get called Mrs Meese, it enrages me for a variety of distinct reasons. I actively loathe being called Mrs.
posted by meese at 8:39 AM on May 26, 2019 [6 favorites]

I’m an American living in the UK, 35, married. I’ve taken my husband’s last name, as I never really liked my dad’s surname. I actively loathe being referred to as Mrs and would be very surprised to be called that in a business setting, in the States or here.
posted by Concordia at 8:47 AM on May 26, 2019

I use Ms., but even if I didn't I would err on the side of Miss, not Mrs., if wasn't sure. (Pacific Northwest). Being in a military-adjacent culture, sometimes I get let off the hook by having a rank or job title to call someone. "Commander Smith", of course, but it's also not uncommon for someone to be called by their job-derived nickname, like XO, Ops or Eng.
posted by ctmf at 9:08 AM on May 26, 2019

It would be odd to use a title at all in the business settings I'm aware of. I work in SF for a Fortune 50 company based in the NY area. I have never heard/read any American refer to any other American by anything but their name.

I wanted to say that too, but it's not entirely true. There's an awkward phase when you first meet someone before they've invited you to use their first name. So if they're in your waiting room, someone's got to go down and say Ms. Smith? Ah, pleased to meet you finally, this way please. I mean, you could say, are you Katherine Smith? but it sounds a little more interrogation-like, and using first name only is still a bit presumptuous at this stage. Or now they're in the meeting and someone has to introduce her, you would say this is Katherine Smith, and then she would say call me Katherine, and then the problem's solved. "I'd like everyone to look at the thing Katherine is handing out" is now ok. But if she doesn't say that... well you could still say the same thing, but it's a bit rude.
posted by ctmf at 9:22 AM on May 26, 2019

I am in my 30s and unmarried and a woman. Whenever someone refers to me as "Mrs." I am very offended and correct them to "Miss". I will accept being referred to as "Ms." because it is generic and universally applicable, (and hence very business-appropriate), but I actively dislike it.
posted by windykites at 9:25 AM on May 26, 2019

Traditionally, a widow would still use Mrs. John Smith, but it’s one of those rules that lots of people don’t know or don’t observe, so it’s not surprising to me that lots of widows would use Mrs. Jane Smith. And etiquette rules are like grammar rules. If enough people change the way they do things, the rule effectively goes by the wayside, but there are always a few persnickety people who know the old rule and a very few who think it should still be observed. It would always be impolite though to tell a widow she’s using the wrong form of address for herself.

My source for historical rules is always Miss Manners, though my mother (born 1928) originally told me that Mrs. Jane Smith would be divorced. But when I got divorced, I reverted to my birth name.
posted by FencingGal at 9:27 AM on May 26, 2019 [2 favorites]

Agreed-- Ms. (Mizz).

I was married at one time, did not change my last name, and my ex is a teacher.
I am also Dr., and I work with K-12 populations, so things got really weird sometimes. I got
Mrs. Oflinkey
Mrs. Ex-lastname
Dr. Oflinkey (this is correct!)
Dr. Ex-Lastname

Almost never Ms., though, and I would say that is a function of the K-12 thing as someone noted upthread. As a sidenote here, I do get Mrs. Oflinkey a lot, whereas my male peers almost never get that. They get Dr. or Professor.
posted by oflinkey at 9:28 AM on May 26, 2019 [1 favorite]

I am a Business Person doing Business for a financial services company in the Midwest. Nobody ever, ever refers to anyone else by their last name except in a team-spirity way. We refer to our CEO by her first name. I’d be tempted to call her ma’am, but it would be extremely weird to call her Mrs/Miss Lastname, or even Ms.

There is a very specific set of rules around Miss Her Name(unmarried woman), Mrs. Husband Name, Mrs. Herfirst Hislast, Miss Hislast, etc. Ms. breaks the system, as does a woman not taking her husband’s name. I’m Myname Mine-His, and my most traditional (also feminist) friend addresses our holiday card to Mr. and Mrs. Hisfirst Mine-His, which is also broken but as close as you can get, I guess? I mean I also answer to “Mrs. Kid’s Mom” but not at work.

Anyway please consult Emily Post for the specific rules, but you’re correct that no honorifics in business, and also remind your FIL that we don’t say Mister Doctor ever, so German doesn’t map too well.
posted by chesty_a_arthur at 9:38 AM on May 26, 2019 [1 favorite]

Ms. and I have angrily corrected anyone who’s referred to me as anything else. If men’s titles don’t change for marital status, mine don’t either.
posted by jeweled accumulation at 10:11 AM on May 26, 2019 [4 favorites]

Even the written correspondence my legal nonprofit in Chicago sends is almost all addressed to "Ms. Smith"--very occasionally some donors will get mail addressed to "Mr. & Mrs. Smith" but most get "Mr. Smith and Ms. Smith" (or Mr. Jones & Ms. Smith")

The pronunciation difference is not huge, but it's noticeable.
posted by crush at 10:18 AM on May 26, 2019

It would be odd to use a title at all in the business settings I'm aware of. I work in SF for a Fortune 50 company based in the NY area. I have never heard/read any American refer to any other American by anything but their name.

I'm a lawyer. If I'm sending an initial email outside my organization to someone I previously have not had contact with, I use the last name. I think it's rude to presume first-name usage in a business context for someone not a colleague.

That said, 95% of the time, if the conversation proceeds, we move to a first-name basis very quickly.

We also use honorific + last name in court. That doesn't change.
posted by praemunire at 10:38 AM on May 26, 2019 [3 favorites]

(Also, when I'm interviewing in this milieu, I absolutely use the honorific when introduced to my interviewer. Again, that usually leads to a "Julie, please.")
posted by praemunire at 10:41 AM on May 26, 2019 [1 favorite]

I used to be married to Mr. X, changed my last name to X, kept it after the divorce for professional reasons and continued to keep this name even after I married Mr. Y. Only Ms. is correct. I am not a Miss but I'm also no longer Mrs. X and I'm also not Mrs. Y. There are many women in my shoes.
posted by carmicha at 11:24 AM on May 26, 2019 [1 favorite]

I'm in a casual business (publishing) in a formal town (NYC). I would never use a title for anyone and would be shocked to hear someone call me anything other than FirstName. Business correspondence is addressed to "Dear FirstName" (if I want to be really formal!) or "Hi Firstname" (what I usually use and how I'm usually addressed).

All that said, if someone called me Mrs. I would not respond because that is so insultingly incorrect.

Ms. would be fine but pretty awkward because I'm not used to using titles.

Miss would get a correction.
posted by (Over) Thinking at 11:31 AM on May 26, 2019

When I was working for a german company while in my 30s, it was common to see Mrs to address any woman over email, like for customer service responses. I never saw Ms. It’s totally wrong, but that’s what they did, even after multiple gentle corrections. Like the above commenters, I agree it seems like it was an assumption that Mrs. must be the equivalent of frau.

Here in the US, professionals typically address each other by first name, unless the person first introduced themselves using a title or honorific.
posted by mochapickle at 11:52 AM on May 26, 2019 [1 favorite]

Miss and Mrs. are both retrograde, but common. It's a weapon of patriarchy just like anti-abortion legislation, and used by the same folks who support that kind of thing (and old folks who can't get their heads around modern ways).

Uh, not universally. I’m not married, have no intention of marrying and I choose ‘Miss’ rather than any ambiguity that I may or may not be in any way partnered up by using Ms
posted by kitten magic at 4:00 PM on May 26, 2019

And don't forget the married women who prefer (ahem - demand) to be addressed as Ms.

Really this whole thing is fraught - I get upset as hell when I’m addressed as Ms by people who know damn well I’m married - to me, with the cultural upbringing I grew up with, it implies that the speaker doesn’t believe that I’m really married or doesn’t want to give me an honorific. But that may also be because when I was growing up, people mostly used Ms sardonically.
posted by corb at 4:28 PM on May 26, 2019

However, to answer the question, if I knew she was unmarried, I would say Miss.
posted by corb at 5:33 PM on May 26, 2019

When I get work emails from people who don't know me and live outside the U.S., it's relatively common that they call me Mrs. (incorrectly). Not just Germans, but also people in France, other parts of Europe, and some parts of Asia. I'm in the U.S. and concur with everyone above about what happens here. I can't think of a recent example where someone hasn't just used my first name, but if the honorific ever came up, it would be Ms.

I wish that people working in retail could stop using "miss" and "ma'am"...I've noticed some people lately using "miss" for women in their 60s (presumably they're using it universally to avoid offending those who think it makes them sound old, but it's just odd. I don't want to be called miss or ma'am.)
posted by pinochiette at 5:46 PM on May 26, 2019

I'm in my 30s and married and I would still find it vaguely off-putting if someone called me Mrs. instead of Ms. *shrug*
posted by stray at 6:53 PM on May 26, 2019

East coast married lady with a different last name than my husband: I am Ms. (mizz) only. I am not Mrs anything because I do not share his last name. Either way, at work that’s none of your business so I am still Ms. (mizz).
posted by OrangeVelour at 7:08 PM on May 26, 2019

Everybody on my facebook thinks that there is an honorific Ms. which means that you are a widowed or a divorced woman. I am staggered by this. They are puzzled when I tell them the word is not an abbreviation and does not take a period, and that it is meant to represent that the marital status of the person is not designated.

What's worse is that the subjects has come up in conversation only because they are looking for a fourth alternative to act the way Ms is supposed to, because they don't think it's reasonable for women to have to tell people if they are married, single, or divorced and would like a non-committal honorific.
posted by Jane the Brown at 8:16 PM on May 26, 2019 [1 favorite]

As a child in the middle of the country in the 80s, I was taught to default to Ms if marital status was unknown to me, and Miss or Mrs for unmarried or married women, respectively. However, it was made clear that I should respect a person's preference if it was expressed.

I can't say whether it was my mom's thing specifically or not, but the idea of using Mrs. [Husband's name] was never communicated to me as something that was even an option. I only learned of its existence in my early teens when she got some mail addressed to Mrs. Dadsname, which totally confused me until a bit later when I learned about women being treated as their husband's property in the recent past.
posted by wierdo at 8:48 PM on May 26, 2019

I just jumped down, sorry.

Ms. can refer to married or unmarried women. Some women use it as a feminist thing just as Mr. doesn't designate a marital status.
posted by xammerboy at 8:50 PM on May 26, 2019 [1 favorite]

Ms

I'm stunned that in 2019 there is anything remotely debatable about this. (N.B. - I am frequently stunned by life these days.)

Some women use it [Ms] as a feminist thing...

I gotta say, referring to someone's preference re form of address as "a feminist thing" grates on my last nerve. It sounds dismissive, like referring to feminism as "women's lib". (Fortunately, haven't heard that one in decades.)
posted by she's not there at 9:35 PM on May 26, 2019 [10 favorites]

The very worst practice, in my opinion, was common back in the dark ages before feminists raised consciousness even in circles like the League of Women Voters chapter in my Boston suburb. When listing members, whether in a roster, program or ballot, the style guide held that:

Never married women were Miss Mary Q. Smith

Widowed or divorced women were Mrs. Mary Q. Smith

Married women were Mrs. John P. Smith or, at best, Mary Q. Smith (Mrs. John P.)

The patriarchy meant that its was easier to look Mary Q. Smith up in the phone book knowing her husband's name, since of course her name wouldn't be there. During the period when women often had different last names than their husbands but phone books were still important, I remember being informed that it would cost $10/month for me to have my own listing. Grrr.

posted by carmicha at 7:07 AM on May 27, 2019 [1 favorite]

Ms.is an abbreviation for mistress and was used this way in the 17th century. It was repurposed in the 20th century for women who didn’t want their honorific to indicate marital status. In the US, it takes a period. In the UK, it does not. See the Wikipedia article.

In a business context, I always use titles in emails (though in my business, the default for people I write is Dr.). I find it weird when people who don’t know me use my first name in an email, though I’m only offended when they address me by my first name and sign themselves Dr. Lastname. I loathe one-way first name calling among adults. In my experience, that’s something only doctors do.
posted by FencingGal at 7:08 AM on May 27, 2019 [2 favorites]

• Widowed or divorced women were Mrs. Mary Q. Smith

A far-flung cousin who could barely pick me out of a lineup sent me a wedding invitation for Mrs. [Mocha Pickle] last fall, clearly following this outdated etiquette. I was briefly married years ago and am now long divorced. Guess who was so annoyed she didn’t bother sending a present?

And oh! I forgot to mention above that the first-name addressing was in a tech/customer service/account management context. I would expect a lawyer to use Ms.

Our german counterparts would also send messages addressing women as Mrs and nothing else, like so:

Dear Mrs,
Thank you for your inquiry...

Dear Mrs! Like maybe it was a stand-in for Dear Madam? It was so weird.
posted by mochapickle at 8:03 AM on May 27, 2019

As a long-ago divorced woman (who kept married name), I agree that “Mrs” sounds offensive to me, and when asked “Miss or Mrs?” I will offer the corrections “Ms or Dr”.

The worst offender was the university where I received my PhD - it took several complaints before they stopped calling me “Mrs” on the mailing label for the alumni magazine.
posted by geezlouise at 9:15 AM on May 27, 2019 [1 favorite]

I would never call anyone Miss or Mrs unless they specifically asked me to, and I would of course do so but I would think it was strange. Ms is the default in the modern professional world.
The other day someone (rental car clerk maybe?) called me "Mrs. Exceptinsects" (I am not married) and I was so surprised I almost posted about it on Facebook.
posted by exceptinsects at 10:35 AM on May 28, 2019

Perhaps your father-outlaw's confusion about Mrs./Ms stems from the accents/dialect of the Texans he worked with? In my native (central) Texan vernacular, "Mrs." and "Ms" are pronounced almost identically, enough so that when I was a child in the 80s and "Ms" was starting to get a lot of positive and negative press, I was so confused as to why anyone would object to "Ms", because they sounded the same to me.
posted by telophase at 12:10 PM on May 28, 2019

I agree that Ms. is best, but I disagree that it is totally standard. I hear (and am addressed as) Mrs. in a business context regularly. There are definitely many people who default to Mrs. for an adult woman that they don't know much about. It may not be right, but it happens all the time.
posted by medusa at 11:18 AM on June 3, 2019