Happily married, but I want kids more than she does. What's the play?
May 7, 2019 5:57 AM Subscribe
When we got married, she said she hadn't decided about kids. I said I'd love her either way and I meant it. 6 years later, the clock is running out, and we're moving to opposite sides of the question. How do we put together a process to come to terms with the choice to have or not have kids without ruining a good thing in the process?
I haven't pushed the question much since the wedding. We've both been involved in fairly busy careers and hobbies (she's an athlete, and I coach a high school robotics team), so it's been easy to put it off. Meanwhile my siblings have all had kids (9 niblings in total), and we've seen first-hand all of the ups and downs they bring to the family. But we're both 40 this year and I've been feeling the clock ticking. Now my imagination has put me between two paranoid futures: One where we die alone without a family (the biggest of FOMOs) and one where pushing the issue has torn apart our idyllic marriage (whether we have kids or not) :(.
I'm aware enough to understand both sides of the argument for having a family, so I'm not sure it's best to debate that here. Instead, I want to ask what you think is the best thing to do here? I think I have these options:
a) Haul us into marriage counselling, analyze the question to death in the hopes of softening one of our positions. (This is my default instinct - I'm an analyzer if you couldn't tell - but I know it's the opposite of the way she likes to make decisions). I am deeply afraid that I could take the debate too far and make her unhappy.
b) Convince myself that I want kids enough to start building a strong case. Launch a multi-year lobbying campaign to eventually convince her too. Do so knowing that I could "win" and be unhappy, or "lose" and also be unhappy.
c) Convince myself that I won't regret not raising a family (missing all of the deeply human experiences involved, and the chance to pass on my genes and wisdom along to a daughter or son who will outlive me). Enjoy the sweet life of disposable income and free time to pursue our dreams. Maybe employ a shrink in this regard instead of anonymous web posts.
I've been waffling between all three options depending on how great I feel, and how long it's been since I've seen a video of someone saying "I love you Dad". That's a lot to unpack - anyone up for it?
I haven't pushed the question much since the wedding. We've both been involved in fairly busy careers and hobbies (she's an athlete, and I coach a high school robotics team), so it's been easy to put it off. Meanwhile my siblings have all had kids (9 niblings in total), and we've seen first-hand all of the ups and downs they bring to the family. But we're both 40 this year and I've been feeling the clock ticking. Now my imagination has put me between two paranoid futures: One where we die alone without a family (the biggest of FOMOs) and one where pushing the issue has torn apart our idyllic marriage (whether we have kids or not) :(.
I'm aware enough to understand both sides of the argument for having a family, so I'm not sure it's best to debate that here. Instead, I want to ask what you think is the best thing to do here? I think I have these options:
a) Haul us into marriage counselling, analyze the question to death in the hopes of softening one of our positions. (This is my default instinct - I'm an analyzer if you couldn't tell - but I know it's the opposite of the way she likes to make decisions). I am deeply afraid that I could take the debate too far and make her unhappy.
b) Convince myself that I want kids enough to start building a strong case. Launch a multi-year lobbying campaign to eventually convince her too. Do so knowing that I could "win" and be unhappy, or "lose" and also be unhappy.
c) Convince myself that I won't regret not raising a family (missing all of the deeply human experiences involved, and the chance to pass on my genes and wisdom along to a daughter or son who will outlive me). Enjoy the sweet life of disposable income and free time to pursue our dreams. Maybe employ a shrink in this regard instead of anonymous web posts.
I've been waffling between all three options depending on how great I feel, and how long it's been since I've seen a video of someone saying "I love you Dad". That's a lot to unpack - anyone up for it?
I sense in your question that you're worried about upsetting her -- a good thing! But have you also thought how your own sadness about not having kids will affect your marriage in the long-term? You come across pretty strongly as wanting them here.
So I think this is a decision that would definitely benefit from counselling -- even if it does upset both of you. This is just a difficult thing, and someone will get upset. I would just accept that from the start, no matter what decision you make, it will change your marriage -- and that's not necessarily a terrible thing.
Also, I'm not sure what this is worth, but I have a friend who wanted kids a lot more than her husband, and they kind of made an explicit deal that she just does a lot of the stuff that he didn't want to do with kids -- i.e., more of the childcare, organizing household help, more of the wake-ups in the middle of the night. From the outside, their set up can look kind of crazy and anti-feminist, but they are both pleased as punch. She has a kid she thought she'd never have and is happy to do more of the shitty work, he loves spending time with the kid but doesn't give up what he thought he had to give up to have him. Definitely not for everyone (and yeah, judge away) but it means they both got what they wanted and are happy.
posted by caoimhe at 6:24 AM on May 7, 2019 [3 favorites]
So I think this is a decision that would definitely benefit from counselling -- even if it does upset both of you. This is just a difficult thing, and someone will get upset. I would just accept that from the start, no matter what decision you make, it will change your marriage -- and that's not necessarily a terrible thing.
Also, I'm not sure what this is worth, but I have a friend who wanted kids a lot more than her husband, and they kind of made an explicit deal that she just does a lot of the stuff that he didn't want to do with kids -- i.e., more of the childcare, organizing household help, more of the wake-ups in the middle of the night. From the outside, their set up can look kind of crazy and anti-feminist, but they are both pleased as punch. She has a kid she thought she'd never have and is happy to do more of the shitty work, he loves spending time with the kid but doesn't give up what he thought he had to give up to have him. Definitely not for everyone (and yeah, judge away) but it means they both got what they wanted and are happy.
posted by caoimhe at 6:24 AM on May 7, 2019 [3 favorites]
At 40 it may already be too late for the two of you. It's certainly in the category of possible, but far more likely to be possible but only with intervention. And even the least aggressive forms of intervention are uncomfortable physically and draining emotionally - it's not a train you want to be on if you're still iffy about having kids. Adoption can be even harder, in some ways, especially if you're hoping for babies. So be aware that the right time for asking this question may already have passed.
That having been said, I'm not sure your two worst-case scenarios are something to fear. With 9 nieces and nephews, you will not die alone and without family. You just need to invite them into your life more and stay in touch as they grow up. Having a biological or adopted child is no guarantee that they'll be there for you when you're old. When you give love you tend to get love back. In my opinion, "pushing the issue" could only a problem if by pushing you mean not taking no for an answer until you wear her down. Raising the subject honestly, being clear that this is something you really want and that you were hoping for (and why), is well within the bounds of a healthy conversation. But you also need to listen to her answer, and if it's no, you need to respect that and put it away (or discuss with a therapist).
But first you need to be certain whether you actually, really want kids, or whether you just don't want to not have had them. Most of your post is framed more as FOMO than as desire for children. And that's a really normal and healthy response to where you are in life. And one that talking honestly with your wife can probably help you address.
posted by Mchelly at 6:28 AM on May 7, 2019 [31 favorites]
That having been said, I'm not sure your two worst-case scenarios are something to fear. With 9 nieces and nephews, you will not die alone and without family. You just need to invite them into your life more and stay in touch as they grow up. Having a biological or adopted child is no guarantee that they'll be there for you when you're old. When you give love you tend to get love back. In my opinion, "pushing the issue" could only a problem if by pushing you mean not taking no for an answer until you wear her down. Raising the subject honestly, being clear that this is something you really want and that you were hoping for (and why), is well within the bounds of a healthy conversation. But you also need to listen to her answer, and if it's no, you need to respect that and put it away (or discuss with a therapist).
But first you need to be certain whether you actually, really want kids, or whether you just don't want to not have had them. Most of your post is framed more as FOMO than as desire for children. And that's a really normal and healthy response to where you are in life. And one that talking honestly with your wife can probably help you address.
posted by Mchelly at 6:28 AM on May 7, 2019 [31 favorites]
You say when you married she hadn’t decided whether she would want kids, and you told her you were okay either way. Now it sounds like she’s decided she does not want kids, and you’re not necessarily okay with that. You need to talk to her, because she may have taken you at your word that you’d support whatever choice she eventually made. You seem to be the one changing your mind here, not her...
posted by sallybrown at 6:32 AM on May 7, 2019 [46 favorites]
posted by sallybrown at 6:32 AM on May 7, 2019 [46 favorites]
If you're both 40, you have basically months, not years, unless your plans are to adopt an older (and possibly hard to place) child. I had my youngest at 40 and being athletes will honestly help but - you need to resolve this asap. It's not just about fertility, although it is. It's also about energy for the teen years, etc. etc.
I think you should get into counselling right now, individual for you, couples for you both. You should talk to your wife like, tonight, and set a deadline for a decision that's within 3-4 months. Give yourselves some time, but not too much time (certainly not multi-year!!) to come to a decision as a couple. Honestly, you guys are pretty much out of time unless you go to very invasive reproductive technology...and that's actually a blessing, because you can make this decision and get on with your lives either way. (Infertility aside, which you may be looking at.)
By the way, that decision is "if one person doesn't want kids, there are no kids."
Then, if it's a no, you decide if you want to grieve the decision and move on or if you want to exercise your ability as the sperm bearer to choose a younger partner.
posted by warriorqueen at 6:40 AM on May 7, 2019 [12 favorites]
I think you should get into counselling right now, individual for you, couples for you both. You should talk to your wife like, tonight, and set a deadline for a decision that's within 3-4 months. Give yourselves some time, but not too much time (certainly not multi-year!!) to come to a decision as a couple. Honestly, you guys are pretty much out of time unless you go to very invasive reproductive technology...and that's actually a blessing, because you can make this decision and get on with your lives either way. (Infertility aside, which you may be looking at.)
By the way, that decision is "if one person doesn't want kids, there are no kids."
Then, if it's a no, you decide if you want to grieve the decision and move on or if you want to exercise your ability as the sperm bearer to choose a younger partner.
posted by warriorqueen at 6:40 AM on May 7, 2019 [12 favorites]
Launch a multi-year lobbying campaign to eventually convince her too.
I think you can rule this out as an option. If you want (biological) kids, you don't have years to wait. Even right now it could be hard and could require the help of a doctor. I know several people in this age range trying to have babies, and I'm the only one whose done it so far, and I did it with aggressive intervention. This decision may already have been made for you, but if you (both) decide that you want to try, it needs to be immediately-ish (obviously as immediately as you can sort out whether you want to try, but that cannot be years).
Also a multi-year lobbying campaign seems like it would be hard on a marriage, even if you did have time for that.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 7:09 AM on May 7, 2019 [6 favorites]
I think you can rule this out as an option. If you want (biological) kids, you don't have years to wait. Even right now it could be hard and could require the help of a doctor. I know several people in this age range trying to have babies, and I'm the only one whose done it so far, and I did it with aggressive intervention. This decision may already have been made for you, but if you (both) decide that you want to try, it needs to be immediately-ish (obviously as immediately as you can sort out whether you want to try, but that cannot be years).
Also a multi-year lobbying campaign seems like it would be hard on a marriage, even if you did have time for that.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 7:09 AM on May 7, 2019 [6 favorites]
Yes, I'd start with an honest conversation with her and then move directly to counseling. Plenty of women get pregnant in their 40s with no problem, but on a population level you're definitely moving into the zone where medical interventions are much more likely to be required and certainly at least perimenopause within the next decade.
"Meanwhile my siblings have all had kids (9 niblings in total), and we've seen first-hand all of the ups and downs they bring to the family. But we're both 40 this year and I've been feeling the clock ticking. Now my imagination has put me between two paranoid futures: One where we die alone without a family (the biggest of FOMOs)"
I also want to emphasize -- you DO have a family! Among the most important people in my life have been a great-uncle and great-aunt who were unable to have children before there were many medical interventions available (1950s), and an uncle and aunt who chose not to have children. All of them have adored their niblings and been a constant presence in our lives and as we got old enough to reciprocate, us in theirs. If you have a reasonably close-knit extended family, you can look forward to a lifetime of nieces and nephews, and grand-nieces and grand-nephews, to enjoy and spoil and love, and who will be around when you're older.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:17 AM on May 7, 2019 [18 favorites]
"Meanwhile my siblings have all had kids (9 niblings in total), and we've seen first-hand all of the ups and downs they bring to the family. But we're both 40 this year and I've been feeling the clock ticking. Now my imagination has put me between two paranoid futures: One where we die alone without a family (the biggest of FOMOs)"
I also want to emphasize -- you DO have a family! Among the most important people in my life have been a great-uncle and great-aunt who were unable to have children before there were many medical interventions available (1950s), and an uncle and aunt who chose not to have children. All of them have adored their niblings and been a constant presence in our lives and as we got old enough to reciprocate, us in theirs. If you have a reasonably close-knit extended family, you can look forward to a lifetime of nieces and nephews, and grand-nieces and grand-nephews, to enjoy and spoil and love, and who will be around when you're older.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:17 AM on May 7, 2019 [18 favorites]
b) Convince myself that I want kids enough to start building a strong case. Launch a multi-year lobbying campaign to eventually convince her too. Do so knowing that I could "win" and be unhappy, or "lose" and also be unhappy.
At the age of 40, a "multi-year" anything is not going to cut it. If you started trying to conceive tomorrow, you'd have to accept that there were no guarantees, let alone in a few years.
Honestly, a multi-year lobbying campaign sounds exhausting and unpleasant for both of you.
You need to talk to her about how your feelings have developed and you need to do so this week.
Be prepared for her to be surprised since the last time you apparently had this conversation you were fine either way. If you want the answer to be yes, you need to think carefully about what you need to offer here to make this happen. Does this mean that you take a long paternity leave and do a lot of the sacrificing? Will you be able to do that without feeling resentful?
I'm not a 40 year old woman but given how fertility changes over one's 30s I would be really surprised if she hadn't made a decision on this quite firmly over the last few years. Uncertainty about reproduction is a luxury for men and younger women so be prepared for her having considered this pretty extensively already.
posted by atrazine at 7:18 AM on May 7, 2019 [17 favorites]
At the age of 40, a "multi-year" anything is not going to cut it. If you started trying to conceive tomorrow, you'd have to accept that there were no guarantees, let alone in a few years.
Honestly, a multi-year lobbying campaign sounds exhausting and unpleasant for both of you.
You need to talk to her about how your feelings have developed and you need to do so this week.
Be prepared for her to be surprised since the last time you apparently had this conversation you were fine either way. If you want the answer to be yes, you need to think carefully about what you need to offer here to make this happen. Does this mean that you take a long paternity leave and do a lot of the sacrificing? Will you be able to do that without feeling resentful?
I'm not a 40 year old woman but given how fertility changes over one's 30s I would be really surprised if she hadn't made a decision on this quite firmly over the last few years. Uncertainty about reproduction is a luxury for men and younger women so be prepared for her having considered this pretty extensively already.
posted by atrazine at 7:18 AM on May 7, 2019 [17 favorites]
I think your counseling instinct is a good one. From everything you've said, I'd be surprised by an outcome other than the two of you decide not to have kids, but setting up a safe, supportive space to get all of your and her feelings out in the open about it can't be a bad thing.
posted by LizardBreath at 7:28 AM on May 7, 2019
posted by LizardBreath at 7:28 AM on May 7, 2019
Fertility-wise, things are not nearly as dire as people think. Most fertility statistics are based on very old historical records that are not relevant in this day and age, and further misrepresented by the horribly irresponsible pop-sci media. Please refer to this article for an excellent breakdown on actual fertility statistics. Choice quote:
The widely cited statistic that one in three women ages 35 to 39 will not be pregnant after a year of trying, for instance, is based on an article published in 2004 in the journal Human Reproduction. Rarely mentioned is the source of the data: French birth records from 1670 to 1830. In other words, millions of women are being told when to get pregnant based on statistics from a time before electricity, antibiotics, or fertility treatment.
Please read the article in its entirety, it is incredibly well-researched and illuminating. One thing I do not see mentioned there: when I wanted to get pregnant in my late 30's, my OBGYN said that a lot of the fertility decline in older women can be attributed to weight gain (because estrogen stored in fat acts as birth control), not to age itself.
Am I saying that women's fertility does not decline after 40? Of course not! Absolutely it does! Just not nearly as much as most people think, especially if the woman is in good physical shape.
posted by rada at 7:35 AM on May 7, 2019 [22 favorites]
The widely cited statistic that one in three women ages 35 to 39 will not be pregnant after a year of trying, for instance, is based on an article published in 2004 in the journal Human Reproduction. Rarely mentioned is the source of the data: French birth records from 1670 to 1830. In other words, millions of women are being told when to get pregnant based on statistics from a time before electricity, antibiotics, or fertility treatment.
Please read the article in its entirety, it is incredibly well-researched and illuminating. One thing I do not see mentioned there: when I wanted to get pregnant in my late 30's, my OBGYN said that a lot of the fertility decline in older women can be attributed to weight gain (because estrogen stored in fat acts as birth control), not to age itself.
Am I saying that women's fertility does not decline after 40? Of course not! Absolutely it does! Just not nearly as much as most people think, especially if the woman is in good physical shape.
posted by rada at 7:35 AM on May 7, 2019 [22 favorites]
I don't think she needs counseling. She knew she didn't want kids and she decided not to have them. Evidence: she's forty and hasn't had any kids.
I don't think you necessarily need counseling, either. You were ambivalent about having kids and you did what the ambivalent do: let time decide the question. Now it's decided: you and your wife are forty and haven't had any kids.
That's good. If you're not sure whether to have kids or not, the default should be not, and waiting to be sure and then never being sure? That's a perfectly acceptable way to decide this enormously, ruinously, consequential question.
If you continue to torture yourself over having waited until too late to decide this, then you will probably want counseling because the natural tendency will be to push "blame" for not having decided onto your wife. (There should be no blame: you guys have done the right and sensible thing.) Perhaps, though, you can stop torturing yourself and admit that you weren't sufficiently sure about it to pursue it and that therefore this is the best outcome. Or you can ditch this marriage and find a younger partner, but 40-year-old fathers are problematic.
posted by Don Pepino at 7:40 AM on May 7, 2019 [26 favorites]
I don't think you necessarily need counseling, either. You were ambivalent about having kids and you did what the ambivalent do: let time decide the question. Now it's decided: you and your wife are forty and haven't had any kids.
That's good. If you're not sure whether to have kids or not, the default should be not, and waiting to be sure and then never being sure? That's a perfectly acceptable way to decide this enormously, ruinously, consequential question.
If you continue to torture yourself over having waited until too late to decide this, then you will probably want counseling because the natural tendency will be to push "blame" for not having decided onto your wife. (There should be no blame: you guys have done the right and sensible thing.) Perhaps, though, you can stop torturing yourself and admit that you weren't sufficiently sure about it to pursue it and that therefore this is the best outcome. Or you can ditch this marriage and find a younger partner, but 40-year-old fathers are problematic.
posted by Don Pepino at 7:40 AM on May 7, 2019 [26 favorites]
Launch a multi-year lobbying campaign to eventually convince her too.
No. This is disrespectful of her as a person. If she doesn't want to have kids, that's a reasonable decision, and since you're talking about biological children, it's a decision that would have a much greater impact on her since she would be the one giving birth.
My friend's mom offered a great piece of wisdom on this topic generally: that a person should have children only if they cannot meet their need to be around kids in any other way. I would start by asking yourself what needs you have to interact with kids that you might be able to meet on your own - you're coaching robotics, which is great. What about a Big Brothers program? Are any of your niblings local, and up for regular hangouts with their uncle? Are there other local opportunities to volunteer with kids, or work with kids?
Once you get more of a handle on that, ask yourself again: is this meeting your need to interact with children, or will it only be met by having children? If that's the case, you need to talk it out with your partner and decide if there's a course of action that's good for both of you, but with the awareness that this may not be a problem you can solve if you want to stay together - if you need kids to be happy and she needs to not have kids to be happy, you've become mismatched and it may be time to part ways. That's hard, but it's not as hard as living your life with increasing bitterness at your partner for not needing the same thing as you.
posted by bile and syntax at 7:48 AM on May 7, 2019 [8 favorites]
No. This is disrespectful of her as a person. If she doesn't want to have kids, that's a reasonable decision, and since you're talking about biological children, it's a decision that would have a much greater impact on her since she would be the one giving birth.
My friend's mom offered a great piece of wisdom on this topic generally: that a person should have children only if they cannot meet their need to be around kids in any other way. I would start by asking yourself what needs you have to interact with kids that you might be able to meet on your own - you're coaching robotics, which is great. What about a Big Brothers program? Are any of your niblings local, and up for regular hangouts with their uncle? Are there other local opportunities to volunteer with kids, or work with kids?
Once you get more of a handle on that, ask yourself again: is this meeting your need to interact with children, or will it only be met by having children? If that's the case, you need to talk it out with your partner and decide if there's a course of action that's good for both of you, but with the awareness that this may not be a problem you can solve if you want to stay together - if you need kids to be happy and she needs to not have kids to be happy, you've become mismatched and it may be time to part ways. That's hard, but it's not as hard as living your life with increasing bitterness at your partner for not needing the same thing as you.
posted by bile and syntax at 7:48 AM on May 7, 2019 [8 favorites]
My partner and I started talking about maybe having a kid when I was 37, and I had a baby at 41 and I'm not having any more. It took us 18 months of "trying" to get pregnant, without any intervention, and my doc thought that was totally normal and reasonable.
I did not have a hard no on this decision (obviously) but it took my partner really stating a preference for us to start talking about it. There's no good way to make it happen without talking a lot first.
Wishing you and your partner lots of empathy for each others' positions and really good communication as you work through this together.
posted by Lawn Beaver at 7:49 AM on May 7, 2019 [6 favorites]
I did not have a hard no on this decision (obviously) but it took my partner really stating a preference for us to start talking about it. There's no good way to make it happen without talking a lot first.
Wishing you and your partner lots of empathy for each others' positions and really good communication as you work through this together.
posted by Lawn Beaver at 7:49 AM on May 7, 2019 [6 favorites]
Now my imagination has put me between two paranoid futures: One where we die alone without a family (the biggest of FOMOs)
This is a rather restrictive and somewhat insulting definition of the term family, which I would invite you to reconsider. You and your wife are a family. Additionally, you have siblings and nine nieces and nephews. You are hardly without family.
Additionally, this question is not "do we want to have kids" but first "do we want to try to have kids?" I don't care how old either member of any couple is; pregnancy achievement is not a given. It's never a given.
That said, you do not have the runway for a "multi-year campaign."
Convince myself that I won't regret not raising a family
The idea that we should live lives free of regret is very Western, and very modern, and somewhat repugnant. You are not going to get to the finishing line with no regrets. Abandon that notion.
posted by DarlingBri at 7:50 AM on May 7, 2019 [47 favorites]
This is a rather restrictive and somewhat insulting definition of the term family, which I would invite you to reconsider. You and your wife are a family. Additionally, you have siblings and nine nieces and nephews. You are hardly without family.
Additionally, this question is not "do we want to have kids" but first "do we want to try to have kids?" I don't care how old either member of any couple is; pregnancy achievement is not a given. It's never a given.
That said, you do not have the runway for a "multi-year campaign."
Convince myself that I won't regret not raising a family
The idea that we should live lives free of regret is very Western, and very modern, and somewhat repugnant. You are not going to get to the finishing line with no regrets. Abandon that notion.
posted by DarlingBri at 7:50 AM on May 7, 2019 [47 favorites]
Just to expand as the discussion continues...as a mum who had her youngest at 40, with a husband who was 44, it's really not just about fertility. When my youngest hits university, I'll be about 60, and my spouse will be close to 65. We are both fit individuals and...the contrast in energy I have had between my oldest (had him at 35) and my youngest is pretty palpable. We'll be funding retirement and university very close in time together. I'm also firmly in the sandwich right now, with parents in their 70s and a child who is learning to ride a bike. Some weeks it feels like all I do in my "spare" time is take people to appointments and make my own.
This is all okay with me, I mean, this is how my infertility played out. But it's not just about getting pregnant, it's about raising this child or children. I joke that I run races so I can train to chase my youngest down the street when he's 17 but...it's not really a joke.
That's why I strongly encourage you to stop coasting on this question.
If I were your wife, I would want to know what your deepest hopes and dreams are, even if that means going through the pain of not doing them. If you really do have an idyllic relationship, it will weather this discussion. That doesn't mean you'll get your way. It means that you two will support each other's journeys.
And you can't soften the blow or set up the conversation in some way that will guarantee you get your way...this is way too big a question to try to broker like that. This is a fundamental life choice that cannot be undone. There is an inherent existential crisis in the question. But not asking it isn't keeping your marriage good. It's just delaying or denying something that you are genuinely struggling with.
posted by warriorqueen at 8:01 AM on May 7, 2019 [19 favorites]
This is all okay with me, I mean, this is how my infertility played out. But it's not just about getting pregnant, it's about raising this child or children. I joke that I run races so I can train to chase my youngest down the street when he's 17 but...it's not really a joke.
That's why I strongly encourage you to stop coasting on this question.
If I were your wife, I would want to know what your deepest hopes and dreams are, even if that means going through the pain of not doing them. If you really do have an idyllic relationship, it will weather this discussion. That doesn't mean you'll get your way. It means that you two will support each other's journeys.
And you can't soften the blow or set up the conversation in some way that will guarantee you get your way...this is way too big a question to try to broker like that. This is a fundamental life choice that cannot be undone. There is an inherent existential crisis in the question. But not asking it isn't keeping your marriage good. It's just delaying or denying something that you are genuinely struggling with.
posted by warriorqueen at 8:01 AM on May 7, 2019 [19 favorites]
Anything you need a multi year lobbying campaign to convince your wife to do is not something that your wife wants to do. Would you really be happy with a family where your wife is only there because you talked her into having kids & now she's stuck. What if she has kids to shut you up & then goes screw this & leaves because she didn't want kids, are you now not a family again? What if she has them to please you & you die or she dies during childbirth? What if the child she has has problems (much more likely with a first pregnancy at an older age)? Are you still the family you envisioned then.
Also as an Aunt who would literally step in front of a bus to save either my niece or nephew your dismissal of them as family made me sad.
You have every right to want to have kids, your wife has every right not to want them. Step one talk to your wife about how you both feel about the issue, listen to what she says, do not at any point attempt long term stealth missions to undermine what she wants. Step two get some professional help to help you work on your definition of family because even if you have kids the amount of added pressure only having one definition of family is going to put on them is not fair. What if they disappoint you? What if they grow up & don't like you? etc.
posted by wwax at 8:02 AM on May 7, 2019 [18 favorites]
Also as an Aunt who would literally step in front of a bus to save either my niece or nephew your dismissal of them as family made me sad.
You have every right to want to have kids, your wife has every right not to want them. Step one talk to your wife about how you both feel about the issue, listen to what she says, do not at any point attempt long term stealth missions to undermine what she wants. Step two get some professional help to help you work on your definition of family because even if you have kids the amount of added pressure only having one definition of family is going to put on them is not fair. What if they disappoint you? What if they grow up & don't like you? etc.
posted by wwax at 8:02 AM on May 7, 2019 [18 favorites]
It is one of my biggest fears that my partner will feel like you eventually—or does already and hasn’t ‘fessed up.
Please, speak up, and if you’re serious, do your research beforehand and have a plan for what it will look like IRL. One of the reasons I do not want children is that too many men, maybe you included, have a fantasy of what #dadlife will be like, and their desire for children is colored by idealized notions based in patriarchy/fear of death/FOMO (even if they have nieces/nephews and think they have seen it all!) Many women, myself included, have no such illusions about the extra work and tax they will be signing up for by becoming a mother.
If you were my partner, and you could honestly answer questions like the following, I’d be much more inclined to have continued conversations. Questions like “how much paternity time will you take”, “what are your practical ideas of how we will FAIRLY balance the additional and significant emotional, logistical, and domestic labor that will last the rest of our lives”, “who will be responsible for daycare transport/leaving work when baby is sick, aka whose career is expected to take a backseat”, “how will we manage eldercare once we become parents”, “how will we prioritize our relationship once we become parents”.
Best of luck. This is a really tough spot to be in and my heart goes out to you both.
posted by stellaluna at 8:46 AM on May 7, 2019 [41 favorites]
Please, speak up, and if you’re serious, do your research beforehand and have a plan for what it will look like IRL. One of the reasons I do not want children is that too many men, maybe you included, have a fantasy of what #dadlife will be like, and their desire for children is colored by idealized notions based in patriarchy/fear of death/FOMO (even if they have nieces/nephews and think they have seen it all!) Many women, myself included, have no such illusions about the extra work and tax they will be signing up for by becoming a mother.
If you were my partner, and you could honestly answer questions like the following, I’d be much more inclined to have continued conversations. Questions like “how much paternity time will you take”, “what are your practical ideas of how we will FAIRLY balance the additional and significant emotional, logistical, and domestic labor that will last the rest of our lives”, “who will be responsible for daycare transport/leaving work when baby is sick, aka whose career is expected to take a backseat”, “how will we manage eldercare once we become parents”, “how will we prioritize our relationship once we become parents”.
Best of luck. This is a really tough spot to be in and my heart goes out to you both.
posted by stellaluna at 8:46 AM on May 7, 2019 [41 favorites]
Now my imagination has put me between two paranoid futures: One where we die alone without a family (the biggest of FOMOs) and one where pushing the issue has torn apart our idyllic marriage (whether we have kids or not) :(.
Dear OP, for the purposes of your question, I am going to assume that you are male and in a heteronormative relationship because of your reference to the dad video. (That may be wildly off base; if it is, please ask a mod to let us know.) When discussing this with your wife, please note: there is a much greater cost to women for becoming a biological parent than to men. I mention this not because I am attempting to convince you that you should or should not have children. I am all for you getting what you want and if that is kids, so be it.
It's just that in the process of making this decision, it is easy to think about the rosy "I love you, dad" videos and the warm and fuzzy feels that the idea of having children produces inside and less likely you will think about the physical, emotional, and financial costs that having and raising children require. I love my kid. I am thrilled I am now a grandmother. I always wanted a child. I am glad I got one. But I would never had had a child with a traditional straight man in a traditional straight marriage because, for many if not most women, that situation sucks big time.
That situation sucks big time because we don't live in an egalitarian society. For example, women in the US usually bear the brunt of a family's emotional labor. Emotional labor is real, largely invisible, and a burden to many of us. Do you know what drastically increases emotional labor? Having children.
Pregnancy also creates significant health risks, and some appear after labor. Taking time off for pregnancy, labor and the early months of childcare, if the family can afford it, can mean that a new mother's lifetime earnings and/or career take a significant hit. (Many working women feel like they are being pushed out of their jobs when they become pregnant while new fathers often get a boost in their careers, according to research from Florida State University. There is plenty of other research as well.)
There are many issues to resolve once you have children. Here is one small issue: who stays home when the kid(s) get sick? Can you take turns staying home with them, as parents, or is one of you making so much more money than the other that the family cannot afford to have you stay home on sick days? My grandkids are still toddlers and they are home from preschool a lot because they are sick a lot because that is a common thing when they first start care outside the home.
I understand the appeal of having and raising children. I had one and raised one myself. I am not against it. I just want to point out that if your wife would be the one to give birth, there are any number of historic, emotional, health and career reasons for her to say thanks but no thanks.
That doesn't mean you have to stop wanting children. But when you discuss this issue with your wife (who maybe has changed her mind, who knows), please try to appreciate the difference between the likely parenting role you would experience as a father and her experience as a mother. Because acknowledging the likely and/or potential differences in your roles as parents may be the most potent weapon you have in this discussion. Everyone wants to be seen and be heard. If you can see and hear her concerns, if you have moreover thought about them in advance, that may make it easier for your wife to fully hear you out.
(Also: having children is no guarantee that you will be cared for and cherished in your old age. Plenty of people are estranged from their parents; my kid stopped talking to me for about a year, and I am the only one of three kids who still talks to my dad. )
Change is inevitable. You can't trap your marriage in amber and cherish it forever exactly as it is, even if you never discuss having children with your wife. You will have regrets, no matter what the two of you decide. If you do have children, you cannot control what kind of children they are or what kind of adults they become or if they will love you or care for you when you get old.
One of the greatest lessons of parenting, IME, is that there is very little in life that one has control over, including one's children. If you want some anyway (despite climate change and financial expense, never mind how loud those rug rats are) and if your wife agrees, go forth and procreate! Enjoy! Just please do not ignore or diminish in your mutual decision the amount of work your wife will need to do to birth a child. Or that most of the work of raising this child will most likely fall to your wife. (If your marriage is different, congratulations!)
posted by Bella Donna at 8:52 AM on May 7, 2019 [59 favorites]
Dear OP, for the purposes of your question, I am going to assume that you are male and in a heteronormative relationship because of your reference to the dad video. (That may be wildly off base; if it is, please ask a mod to let us know.) When discussing this with your wife, please note: there is a much greater cost to women for becoming a biological parent than to men. I mention this not because I am attempting to convince you that you should or should not have children. I am all for you getting what you want and if that is kids, so be it.
It's just that in the process of making this decision, it is easy to think about the rosy "I love you, dad" videos and the warm and fuzzy feels that the idea of having children produces inside and less likely you will think about the physical, emotional, and financial costs that having and raising children require. I love my kid. I am thrilled I am now a grandmother. I always wanted a child. I am glad I got one. But I would never had had a child with a traditional straight man in a traditional straight marriage because, for many if not most women, that situation sucks big time.
That situation sucks big time because we don't live in an egalitarian society. For example, women in the US usually bear the brunt of a family's emotional labor. Emotional labor is real, largely invisible, and a burden to many of us. Do you know what drastically increases emotional labor? Having children.
Pregnancy also creates significant health risks, and some appear after labor. Taking time off for pregnancy, labor and the early months of childcare, if the family can afford it, can mean that a new mother's lifetime earnings and/or career take a significant hit. (Many working women feel like they are being pushed out of their jobs when they become pregnant while new fathers often get a boost in their careers, according to research from Florida State University. There is plenty of other research as well.)
There are many issues to resolve once you have children. Here is one small issue: who stays home when the kid(s) get sick? Can you take turns staying home with them, as parents, or is one of you making so much more money than the other that the family cannot afford to have you stay home on sick days? My grandkids are still toddlers and they are home from preschool a lot because they are sick a lot because that is a common thing when they first start care outside the home.
I understand the appeal of having and raising children. I had one and raised one myself. I am not against it. I just want to point out that if your wife would be the one to give birth, there are any number of historic, emotional, health and career reasons for her to say thanks but no thanks.
That doesn't mean you have to stop wanting children. But when you discuss this issue with your wife (who maybe has changed her mind, who knows), please try to appreciate the difference between the likely parenting role you would experience as a father and her experience as a mother. Because acknowledging the likely and/or potential differences in your roles as parents may be the most potent weapon you have in this discussion. Everyone wants to be seen and be heard. If you can see and hear her concerns, if you have moreover thought about them in advance, that may make it easier for your wife to fully hear you out.
(Also: having children is no guarantee that you will be cared for and cherished in your old age. Plenty of people are estranged from their parents; my kid stopped talking to me for about a year, and I am the only one of three kids who still talks to my dad. )
Change is inevitable. You can't trap your marriage in amber and cherish it forever exactly as it is, even if you never discuss having children with your wife. You will have regrets, no matter what the two of you decide. If you do have children, you cannot control what kind of children they are or what kind of adults they become or if they will love you or care for you when you get old.
One of the greatest lessons of parenting, IME, is that there is very little in life that one has control over, including one's children. If you want some anyway (despite climate change and financial expense, never mind how loud those rug rats are) and if your wife agrees, go forth and procreate! Enjoy! Just please do not ignore or diminish in your mutual decision the amount of work your wife will need to do to birth a child. Or that most of the work of raising this child will most likely fall to your wife. (If your marriage is different, congratulations!)
posted by Bella Donna at 8:52 AM on May 7, 2019 [59 favorites]
A new podcast posted this morning from the Cut: Advice for a mom who never wanted kids, in conversation with reproductive psychiatrist with Alexandra Sacks.
posted by sestaaak at 9:13 AM on May 7, 2019 [6 favorites]
posted by sestaaak at 9:13 AM on May 7, 2019 [6 favorites]
At 40 it may already be too late for the two of you.
Nah, not in our experience. Wasn't an issue.
The "biological clock" thing should be the last thing you're focusing on. And it's her body, after all.
Instead, focus on the "FOMO" you mentioned. While this is a very real emotion, it is also the wrong reason to want to start a family.
Being afraid you'll "die alone" is also an example catastrophic thinking. Which is also an emotion you should be thinking about and processing.
I would posit that you yourself are not ready to have kids, because having kids in partnered relationship is all about communicating effectively with your partner. And also with yourself.
posted by JamesBay at 9:24 AM on May 7, 2019 [5 favorites]
Nah, not in our experience. Wasn't an issue.
The "biological clock" thing should be the last thing you're focusing on. And it's her body, after all.
Instead, focus on the "FOMO" you mentioned. While this is a very real emotion, it is also the wrong reason to want to start a family.
Being afraid you'll "die alone" is also an example catastrophic thinking. Which is also an emotion you should be thinking about and processing.
I would posit that you yourself are not ready to have kids, because having kids in partnered relationship is all about communicating effectively with your partner. And also with yourself.
posted by JamesBay at 9:24 AM on May 7, 2019 [5 favorites]
Coming back to say that I think people are being way too harsh on you. Forty is not too late to have kids for most healthy women. It is not weird to want kids -- many dads wanted kids long before Instagram. I know people who regret not having kids -- that is definitely a thing. I know people who are very happy that they didn't have kids -- that's also a thing. I have a friend who at almost forty suddenly she decided she DID want a kid after all, and now has a little boy. I don't think it's weird to struggle to bring it up when it all feels SO IMPORTANT and you love your relationship with your wife. All of this is OK. It is not illegal to change your mind about kids -- or about anything at all. Of course there may be Consequences, but the changing the mind is OK.
Nowhere in your question does it seem that you don't think of you and your wife as a family, and you speak really highly of your strong relationship. Of course, this has to be done respectfully with regard to communication with your spouse -- and that is your question. But nothing in your question strikes me as something you've done or are doing wrong.
posted by caoimhe at 9:32 AM on May 7, 2019 [10 favorites]
Nowhere in your question does it seem that you don't think of you and your wife as a family, and you speak really highly of your strong relationship. Of course, this has to be done respectfully with regard to communication with your spouse -- and that is your question. But nothing in your question strikes me as something you've done or are doing wrong.
posted by caoimhe at 9:32 AM on May 7, 2019 [10 favorites]
Consider fostering. Get that "experience" and see how attachments form and those little joys. I think nothing can really prepare you for the real experience. At least with this, you can can fully immerse yourself without the lifelong commitment. This may also change her mind -- or yours.
posted by Sara_NOT_Sarah at 9:36 AM on May 7, 2019 [4 favorites]
posted by Sara_NOT_Sarah at 9:36 AM on May 7, 2019 [4 favorites]
Agreed on individual therapy, and what I'd actually address there is not just "do I want kids or not" but also: "what if I decided to leave my wife at 40 and still don't find someone to have kids with" because really, even if you found someone REALLY FAST you are still probably looking at at least 2 years before you have a kid.
I would spend some time either in or out of therapy really imagining your future in 10-15 years. These aren't the only options, but imagine them:
-you're still married but you don't have kids
- you had a kid, but then your marriage faltered and now you're a dad with partial custody
-you left your wife but never found someone else to have kids with, so you're either single or have a different partner but still no kids
- your current, or future, partner agreed to have kids and now you're all blissfully happy
If you don't get the last one, which of the others do you imagine yourself being able to live with? Which ones give you the worst gut feeling?
posted by nakedmolerats at 10:22 AM on May 7, 2019 [5 favorites]
I would spend some time either in or out of therapy really imagining your future in 10-15 years. These aren't the only options, but imagine them:
-you're still married but you don't have kids
- you had a kid, but then your marriage faltered and now you're a dad with partial custody
-you left your wife but never found someone else to have kids with, so you're either single or have a different partner but still no kids
- your current, or future, partner agreed to have kids and now you're all blissfully happy
If you don't get the last one, which of the others do you imagine yourself being able to live with? Which ones give you the worst gut feeling?
posted by nakedmolerats at 10:22 AM on May 7, 2019 [5 favorites]
Mod note: Couple comments deleted. Folks, in general as in all AskMe's, if your answer assumes OP is a jerk who needs to be Told, that's a sign you should probably skip the thread.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 10:29 AM on May 7, 2019 [10 favorites]
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 10:29 AM on May 7, 2019 [10 favorites]
Maybe this column from Dear Sugar will help your thought process.
posted by foxjacket at 11:46 AM on May 7, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by foxjacket at 11:46 AM on May 7, 2019 [1 favorite]
My husband was 45 when we had our first child and we quickly followed with another. We hadn't been together very long. We won't be having anymore. It was much harder work than we had imagined. I just want to posit to you that it is possible for you to realise that you WANT A CHILD and decide to leave the relationship and you do still have time to get a divorce (a year maybe) then have another year single before really setting out to find a partner with the same goals. It happens and it can work. My husband wasn't married before but he had been in relationships where the woman didn't want the same thing and at maybe 42/43 he made a serious choice to find a partner with whom to have children.
As a slightly slightly older mother, I was 35 and 36 when I had our kids- I found it really exhausting and I think my husband has found it exhausting also. I would urge anyone older to give serious thought to only having one child. I know its nice for them to have a sibling and I am sure I won't regret it down the road- but oh my god two young children when you aren't young anymore is so so so tough. But then again, I was skinny fat when I got pregnant and exercised like once a week and ate okay... by the time I was done being pregnant I was seriously out of shape- I think other late 30's women are probably in better shape.
I think we both look back and think about how nice and wonderful life was before children... but we are fortunate enough to have the financial ability to still (theoretically) do the things we want to do and apart from my father we have no parents we need to look after in their 80's as my mom and his parents are passed away ( on the other hand we also had no family help with the kids and they don't have grandparents except for my dad who lives in florida) the kids are now 3 and 4 and its only now I am looking forward to possible free time to make my life ... my husband is now almost completely gray haired!
One thing to also consider is if you have a special needs child. THIS IS A LOT OF WORK. It becomes more likely the older you get. Not super likely or anything, but more likely. Our oldest has sensory issues, maybe high functioning autism... I think the result of my bedrest and a postnatal infection.... and I love him so much and I think its going to be fine, and everything is fine, and life is not THAT difficult (although it was a year ago)... but.... life can have surprises.
If you read all that and you never doubted you want kids then that is something to really think about. If you thought, hell no, I would much rather be with my wife and our dual income no kids life thankyouverymuch... then that is also good to think about!
posted by catspajammies at 11:59 AM on May 7, 2019 [7 favorites]
As a slightly slightly older mother, I was 35 and 36 when I had our kids- I found it really exhausting and I think my husband has found it exhausting also. I would urge anyone older to give serious thought to only having one child. I know its nice for them to have a sibling and I am sure I won't regret it down the road- but oh my god two young children when you aren't young anymore is so so so tough. But then again, I was skinny fat when I got pregnant and exercised like once a week and ate okay... by the time I was done being pregnant I was seriously out of shape- I think other late 30's women are probably in better shape.
I think we both look back and think about how nice and wonderful life was before children... but we are fortunate enough to have the financial ability to still (theoretically) do the things we want to do and apart from my father we have no parents we need to look after in their 80's as my mom and his parents are passed away ( on the other hand we also had no family help with the kids and they don't have grandparents except for my dad who lives in florida) the kids are now 3 and 4 and its only now I am looking forward to possible free time to make my life ... my husband is now almost completely gray haired!
One thing to also consider is if you have a special needs child. THIS IS A LOT OF WORK. It becomes more likely the older you get. Not super likely or anything, but more likely. Our oldest has sensory issues, maybe high functioning autism... I think the result of my bedrest and a postnatal infection.... and I love him so much and I think its going to be fine, and everything is fine, and life is not THAT difficult (although it was a year ago)... but.... life can have surprises.
If you read all that and you never doubted you want kids then that is something to really think about. If you thought, hell no, I would much rather be with my wife and our dual income no kids life thankyouverymuch... then that is also good to think about!
posted by catspajammies at 11:59 AM on May 7, 2019 [7 favorites]
Also, I'm not sure what this is worth, but I have a friend who wanted kids a lot more than her husband, and they kind of made an explicit deal that she just does a lot of the stuff that he didn't want to do with kids -- i.e., more of the childcare, organizing household help, more of the wake-ups in the middle of the night.
I would not bet on it working out this way when the roles are reversed, i.e. when the parent who does not want children is mother and not the father. To start with, the person asking for advice here isn't the one who would be paying the physical costs of pregnancy and childbirth - which can be significant. Then, after the birth, we know that child rearing still falls disproportionately on women. Even when this is contrary to the couple's stated goals/values. Even when men feel that they're doing their fair share.
I wouldn't advise a man to make this promise to his wife, because I wouldn't trust him to keep it. There are exceptions of course, - but you have to fight a lot of the social conditioning of privilege to get there, and most people aren't good at that.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 12:13 PM on May 7, 2019 [20 favorites]
I would not bet on it working out this way when the roles are reversed, i.e. when the parent who does not want children is mother and not the father. To start with, the person asking for advice here isn't the one who would be paying the physical costs of pregnancy and childbirth - which can be significant. Then, after the birth, we know that child rearing still falls disproportionately on women. Even when this is contrary to the couple's stated goals/values. Even when men feel that they're doing their fair share.
I wouldn't advise a man to make this promise to his wife, because I wouldn't trust him to keep it. There are exceptions of course, - but you have to fight a lot of the social conditioning of privilege to get there, and most people aren't good at that.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 12:13 PM on May 7, 2019 [20 favorites]
No matter what you do here, learning to relate to your own regrets in a kind and loving way will help you, so you can make a decision that you might regret without fearing the regret itself.
posted by spindrifter at 1:21 PM on May 7, 2019 [4 favorites]
posted by spindrifter at 1:21 PM on May 7, 2019 [4 favorites]
Regarding the FOMO - my grandmother had a sister who never had children. She put a lot of energy into reaching out and connecting with her family and had a close relationship with many of her siblings's children and grandchildren. One of them who lived in the same city became her primary source of emotional and practical support as she aged and several others helped out and visited regularly. With nine niblings already, you have a chance to have a rich relationship with them that may, in some ways, be simpler and closer than with a biological parent.
Also, no guarantees what you will get with a kid - they could have special needs and be dependent on you for the rest of your life, they could have health issues or accidents and pre-decease you, they may have other issues and distant themselves from any relationship with you when they become adults. I loved raising my kids but they don't always turn out the way that you expected when you were thinking about becoming a parent.
posted by metahawk at 2:38 PM on May 7, 2019 [5 favorites]
Also, no guarantees what you will get with a kid - they could have special needs and be dependent on you for the rest of your life, they could have health issues or accidents and pre-decease you, they may have other issues and distant themselves from any relationship with you when they become adults. I loved raising my kids but they don't always turn out the way that you expected when you were thinking about becoming a parent.
posted by metahawk at 2:38 PM on May 7, 2019 [5 favorites]
I think there’s a difference between wanting kids and being upset because biologically that option is about to be taken away from you due to running out of time. I’d find it hard to imagine that there’s a mid thirties woman out there who isn’t acutely aware of declining fertility - it’s pretty much screamed at you from every media source - so this isn’t something that has just crept up on your wife (although it seems like it has on you!)
As women we are basically told from the start of our thirties that we are going to miss the boat if we want to have kids. The fact that you haven’t hear a peep from your wife about this throughout your entire marriage and she’s almost forty now doesn’t bode well. That’s not a criticism of her! It’s been a non issue for you too, otherwise this would have been a topic for conversation waaaay before now.
And for you to go from never discussing it (and at almost 40 if it had never been discussed I would assume no interest from either of you) to multi year lobbying of your wife is going to really strain your marriage. For those who say, how can you assume there is no interest - they’ve never discussed it! Well that’s an even worse issue. If either or both of you ARE really keen on kids and have never bought it up throughout your entire marriage then your communication is so poor that I wouldn’t trust your relationship to the vigors of kids at this point anyway.
So yes, I don’t think your wife is interested. At all. I also doubt you’re interested, I just think you don’t like the fact that you’re about to lose the option, which is not the same as actively wanting and being prepared for kids. Absolutely, bring it up, do the counselling etc if it’s that important but I’m not getting the feeling that it is.
Oh...and if you’ve read all this and thought, screw this person, who are they to tell me what I want, I’m desperate for kids...congratulations, NOW YOU KNOW. Go do what you have to do.
posted by Jubey at 3:18 PM on May 7, 2019 [11 favorites]
As women we are basically told from the start of our thirties that we are going to miss the boat if we want to have kids. The fact that you haven’t hear a peep from your wife about this throughout your entire marriage and she’s almost forty now doesn’t bode well. That’s not a criticism of her! It’s been a non issue for you too, otherwise this would have been a topic for conversation waaaay before now.
And for you to go from never discussing it (and at almost 40 if it had never been discussed I would assume no interest from either of you) to multi year lobbying of your wife is going to really strain your marriage. For those who say, how can you assume there is no interest - they’ve never discussed it! Well that’s an even worse issue. If either or both of you ARE really keen on kids and have never bought it up throughout your entire marriage then your communication is so poor that I wouldn’t trust your relationship to the vigors of kids at this point anyway.
So yes, I don’t think your wife is interested. At all. I also doubt you’re interested, I just think you don’t like the fact that you’re about to lose the option, which is not the same as actively wanting and being prepared for kids. Absolutely, bring it up, do the counselling etc if it’s that important but I’m not getting the feeling that it is.
Oh...and if you’ve read all this and thought, screw this person, who are they to tell me what I want, I’m desperate for kids...congratulations, NOW YOU KNOW. Go do what you have to do.
posted by Jubey at 3:18 PM on May 7, 2019 [11 favorites]
Fertility-wise, things are not nearly as dire as people think. Most fertility statistics are based on very old historical records that are not relevant in this day and age, and further misrepresented by the horribly irresponsible pop-sci media.
The chances of an embryo having chromosomal issues (aneuploidy) increases dramatically after the age of 35 for women. Most people are only aware of this due to the increase of Down syndrome (Trisomy 21), but the vast majority of chromosomal issues are simply not viable and lead to an early miscarriage. At 40, you can expect 80-90% of embryos to be aneuploidal. This is really what the bottleneck is: everyone you know who has had a healthy child over 40 has basically rolled really well on the chromosomal dice. It's possible, but you can't count on it.
/speaking from personal experience, as well as a lot of medical research thanks to my specialist
posted by jb at 3:33 PM on May 7, 2019 [3 favorites]
The chances of an embryo having chromosomal issues (aneuploidy) increases dramatically after the age of 35 for women. Most people are only aware of this due to the increase of Down syndrome (Trisomy 21), but the vast majority of chromosomal issues are simply not viable and lead to an early miscarriage. At 40, you can expect 80-90% of embryos to be aneuploidal. This is really what the bottleneck is: everyone you know who has had a healthy child over 40 has basically rolled really well on the chromosomal dice. It's possible, but you can't count on it.
/speaking from personal experience, as well as a lot of medical research thanks to my specialist
posted by jb at 3:33 PM on May 7, 2019 [3 favorites]
I find it curious that you don't mention the reasons why your wife has decided that she doesn't want children. Is it the physical taxation and possible catastrophic health outcomes for her, the often extremely disproportionate burden of parenting that falls on women, is it career mommy-track concerns, is it potentially having to sacrifice her athletics, is it fear of losing most of the time she has to herself for 18+ years, is it concern about the state of the world that you'd be bringing a kid into (ecocide and the slide into fascism in the US are big ones), is it concern about having a child with major mental and physical challenges, is it a financial concern, or is it a combination? Have you had a talk about it in-depth? I'd start there and actually listen, don't just sit there cooking up counter arguments to her points.
And, also consider the possibility of scratching the itch for: family that will be there in your old age, genetic downline, and imparting your wisdom and experience to the next generation by forging very strong bonds to your niblings and other kids in your life. There's tremendous value in being a very prominent uncle in their lives. Put some serious time and effort into that by offering to babysit regularly, or pursue an activity with the kids that you do together, or care for them for a stretch of days while their parents take a much-needed adults-only vacation. I had those relationships when I was growing up and they were critically important to me and now I have them as an aunt and they're just as important to me now. You can achieve the things you're yearning for with the kids already in your life. Getting hung up on having a biokid isn't the only path.
posted by quince at 4:37 PM on May 7, 2019 [12 favorites]
And, also consider the possibility of scratching the itch for: family that will be there in your old age, genetic downline, and imparting your wisdom and experience to the next generation by forging very strong bonds to your niblings and other kids in your life. There's tremendous value in being a very prominent uncle in their lives. Put some serious time and effort into that by offering to babysit regularly, or pursue an activity with the kids that you do together, or care for them for a stretch of days while their parents take a much-needed adults-only vacation. I had those relationships when I was growing up and they were critically important to me and now I have them as an aunt and they're just as important to me now. You can achieve the things you're yearning for with the kids already in your life. Getting hung up on having a biokid isn't the only path.
posted by quince at 4:37 PM on May 7, 2019 [12 favorites]
This is tough. I'd think this through via couples therapy and individual therapy. In couples therapy, the presence of the counselor should reduce the risk that you'd take the debate too far. (I could see that happening via your option #2.) That's your default position and also I think the best one.
One thing about how your post is framed? I'm not trying to be harsh or hyper-critical or micro-read your post, but there's no "play" here. Unfortunately. There's just the slow discovery of truth -- the truth about what you want, and about how you feel and will feel about the decisions you've made -- both through solo work and together, and then discovering what that means for your future as a couple.
I say it's about the "discovery of truth," but you might not ever gain quite that much clarity about what you want. Lacking that, there's the difficult challenge of making a decision and then living with it. It might help to think about how you made other big decisions. Have you had second thoughts or regrets? What prevented that? One thing I've learned is that my decision-making process matters (both in terms of how I think things through, and in terms of what I discussed with my partner). In one case (a house that turned out to be a real problem), what has made it easier to live with the situation is that I can still remember the exact thoughts that drove me to buy it, and to some extent still agree with my earlier judgment. But look back at your own past big decisions to see what has helped you live with their mix of good and bad outcomes.
It's worth accepting now that no matter what, there will be some amount of loss or FOMO because every decision forecloses some possibilities. Having kids forecloses the chance of early / earlier retirement, travel, etc. Not having kids forecloses the possibilities that kids bring. Individual therapy would be a great place to explore and even grieve some of what you'll be losing. Also, if you really don't know what you want, and she knows she doesn't want kids, then individual therapy might feel like a more patient and spacious environment to explore your feelings.
Personally, I really really like having kids. I just had a second one at the age of 41. Parenthood is hard, especially because it's all-consuming, but it's been really rewarding. I always knew I wanted kids, but the journey has largely been different than I expected.
posted by slidell at 5:24 PM on May 7, 2019 [2 favorites]
One thing about how your post is framed? I'm not trying to be harsh or hyper-critical or micro-read your post, but there's no "play" here. Unfortunately. There's just the slow discovery of truth -- the truth about what you want, and about how you feel and will feel about the decisions you've made -- both through solo work and together, and then discovering what that means for your future as a couple.
I say it's about the "discovery of truth," but you might not ever gain quite that much clarity about what you want. Lacking that, there's the difficult challenge of making a decision and then living with it. It might help to think about how you made other big decisions. Have you had second thoughts or regrets? What prevented that? One thing I've learned is that my decision-making process matters (both in terms of how I think things through, and in terms of what I discussed with my partner). In one case (a house that turned out to be a real problem), what has made it easier to live with the situation is that I can still remember the exact thoughts that drove me to buy it, and to some extent still agree with my earlier judgment. But look back at your own past big decisions to see what has helped you live with their mix of good and bad outcomes.
It's worth accepting now that no matter what, there will be some amount of loss or FOMO because every decision forecloses some possibilities. Having kids forecloses the chance of early / earlier retirement, travel, etc. Not having kids forecloses the possibilities that kids bring. Individual therapy would be a great place to explore and even grieve some of what you'll be losing. Also, if you really don't know what you want, and she knows she doesn't want kids, then individual therapy might feel like a more patient and spacious environment to explore your feelings.
Personally, I really really like having kids. I just had a second one at the age of 41. Parenthood is hard, especially because it's all-consuming, but it's been really rewarding. I always knew I wanted kids, but the journey has largely been different than I expected.
posted by slidell at 5:24 PM on May 7, 2019 [2 favorites]
I (F,37) broke up over this issue with my last partner (which was not going to last for other reasons anyway).
In our case, he brought it up very black and white "I want kids, you don't", which didn't leave me much space to either express my feelings or understand his.
For me, it would have been useful to have a talk on *why* he wanted, and I didn't want kids.
As a woman, the (often lack of) division of labor was a massive issue, as well as my personal loss of identity, freedom etc. Even with friends that 'divide equally' - I see the woman taking on much more responsibility, and people around them always seeing women as the default parent. Therefor I feel like it's a lot easier for men to decide to want a kid.
We never had a proper talk, but I also would have been open to fostering. Actually I'm much more interested in that, than having my own kid. I think once you explore *why* you want kids, you can also start looking at alternatives. Whether that's fostering, playing a more active role in the lives of other kids, or whatever else - and perhaps that opens up the option that do fulfil your deepest needs.
quince mentions this as well, but really understanding the reasons for the both of you is incredibly important.
posted by Thisandthat at 1:10 AM on May 8, 2019 [11 favorites]
In our case, he brought it up very black and white "I want kids, you don't", which didn't leave me much space to either express my feelings or understand his.
For me, it would have been useful to have a talk on *why* he wanted, and I didn't want kids.
As a woman, the (often lack of) division of labor was a massive issue, as well as my personal loss of identity, freedom etc. Even with friends that 'divide equally' - I see the woman taking on much more responsibility, and people around them always seeing women as the default parent. Therefor I feel like it's a lot easier for men to decide to want a kid.
We never had a proper talk, but I also would have been open to fostering. Actually I'm much more interested in that, than having my own kid. I think once you explore *why* you want kids, you can also start looking at alternatives. Whether that's fostering, playing a more active role in the lives of other kids, or whatever else - and perhaps that opens up the option that do fulfil your deepest needs.
quince mentions this as well, but really understanding the reasons for the both of you is incredibly important.
posted by Thisandthat at 1:10 AM on May 8, 2019 [11 favorites]
I'm the male side of Thisandthat's answer above: my first marriage broke up because I wanted kids, and my wife had originally told me that she probably wanted kids, and then once we were married she avoided addressing the subject until it became clear she was trying to run the clock out on it (she was older than me). Partly it was the impossibility of reconciling our two views, but partly it was her refusal to be straight with me, either before or after we were married, that really she didn't want children.
You need to talk about this, properly, in an open space where neither of you will feel attacked or threatened. That probably means counselling, and sooner rather than later. Don't go in with prepared speeches because that will only cement your position before you start the process. Just be honest. Done right, your relationship will be stronger for it, whatever decision you come to. Left to fester, it will damage what you two have.
posted by Hogshead at 3:21 AM on May 8, 2019 [3 favorites]
You need to talk about this, properly, in an open space where neither of you will feel attacked or threatened. That probably means counselling, and sooner rather than later. Don't go in with prepared speeches because that will only cement your position before you start the process. Just be honest. Done right, your relationship will be stronger for it, whatever decision you come to. Left to fester, it will damage what you two have.
posted by Hogshead at 3:21 AM on May 8, 2019 [3 favorites]
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Separately, you can't convince your wife to have kids if she doesn't want them, so ask her again if she truly doesn't want them - once - and then go from there.
posted by tooloudinhere at 6:05 AM on May 7, 2019 [16 favorites]