Quit playing with fire!!
December 23, 2018 2:42 PM Subscribe
How can I reframe this dynamic with my boyfriend, where I feel like he’s asking me to believe that he’s one way while he acts another? And am I just delusionally misinterpreting this situation?
I have an issue with my boyfriend from time to time. He grew up in a very smothering family— couldn’t have friends, friends who weren’t OK with him constantly interrupting a hangout so he could text his parents weren’t “real friends,” etc.— and I do sometimes think he takes that out on me by putting my in last place when it comes to priorities. If he’s out with coworkers for drinks and it goes two hours late, he doesn’t think “I’ll text my girlfriend so she knows she can eat dinner/go to bed/know I’m not dead,” he thinks, “well, in the past I would have texted my parents 10 times by now, and I’d be terrified to be out with friends and even more terrified to go out a minute later than I said I would, but that was an unhealthy situation and stoneandstar is not my mom so I just won’t text.” On the one hand, great that he doesn’t think I’m also smothering. On the other, please fricking text me.
I bring this up because I think it’s possibly related to the main issue, which is that bf is very “ambivalent.” For example, he works with people in a high powered field (think finance), but he himself is not a “financial professional.” (Using finance as a placeholder.) He often complains about people at work, within reasonable limits— they are rich but always think ethics are someone else’s responsibility, they are professionals but are childish and don’t have their shit together, they’re always making inappropriate comments to one another and their work parties are a shitshow, etc. But then when a party comes around, he goes (normal) and socializes (normal) but also kind of... tattles on them to me? Tells me this random secretary was making inappropriate racy “jokey” comments to him? Starts indulging in binge drinking he doesn’t at any other time (including when our friends and I used to do it)? Acts more like them in temperament, just in subtle ways, where he’s suddenly impressed by things he never was before, interested in new things but expressing it in words that don’t sound like his own, etc.
Last time this happened (this holiday season) I got kind of pissed. I got emotional and sarcastic about it and said I didn’t want to feel like his moral alibi, someone he could tell that he hates these people so that I carry water for him when he gets off on their bad behavior. I also said that his work friends sounded mostly like jackasses, but of course they sounded that way to me because all he ever told me about them was negative, never a single positive thing, but despite all that if he just admitted he likes hanging out with them for whatever reason (we’re kind of lonely atm in our city and are both slow to make new friends), I wouldn’t even really mind. I just hate that he goes out with them, comes home kind of wired, and then tells me all the inappropriate boundary crossing things they do like I would for some reason want to hear about it and not feel jealous or angry or protective. I said I feel like a psychological dumping ground where he can act out this drama of being the good boy but also getting to go out and be naughty, as long as he tattles later.
I didn’t say all of this in one long breath, it was a back-and-forth conversation, but he didn’t have a lot to say about himself, just said in various ways that he understood that he’s putting me in a bad place and apologized. But I feel like I kind of... went too hard critiquing and criticizing his behaviors, and was to some degree makes excuses for my own negative feelings (jealousy) by blaming them on the way he tells me about things. Because the way he tells me about things can be aggravating, but even if he did everything right, I’d probably still feel jealous, protective, etc. at times.
To circle back— in the past, with his family, it was similar. He would tell me about horrible things his parents would do or say (not overt unambiguous abuse but just crazy meltdowns they’d have where they’d make unreasonable demands or say weird things, on a few occasions about me). I’d be like “wtf, that’s horrible.” But then when it happened in the present tense, I’d be like “yea it’s still horrible!!” and he would sort of be like “well, it’s not that bad, they love me, etc.” Which, I’m sure they do. But when it came time to make a choice between capitulating to crazy demands or not, he’d usually choose to capitulate. And then we’d be in a situation where I’d be fairly annoyed that our lives were constrained by this weird toxic situation, but he’d think I was being way too harsh and judging too hard. And I fully admit that I often was pretty harsh, especially when the choice was me vs. them, but in most of these situations it was pretty obvious that he felt a strong guilt-induced obligation toward his parents but very little obligation to me, and while I don’t mind indulging weird parental stuff from time to time (never a problem with any of my exes’ families), it was... too much. Too much built up resentment and I’d kind of explode. In other words I was and can be now quite an asshole, and even if it’s triggered by these situations primarily, I’m still being an asshole.
Anyway, I find myself kind of frozen in this scenario. Boyfriend can be really kind in many ways, does a lot around the house, genuinely seems to appreciate me, my sense of humor, interests, etc. But this dynamic feels like it’s driving me insane and I think I am a pretty shit amateur psychologist, so I’d really like it to be... not my problem. But I feel deep down that I’m contributing to the dynamic quite a bit myself, and I can’t really unpack this situation well enough to understand where I’m in the wrong. I know I need an actual real life therapist for this, but for logistical reasons it has to wait, and I would like to hear any insights from the crowd to basically answer the question, why does this feel so screwed up and what can I do?
I get that you have to bend a little around coworkers and go along to get along, etc. But why does it feel like I’m always just some kind of... microwave background radiation of his life, and not really seeing him?
I have an issue with my boyfriend from time to time. He grew up in a very smothering family— couldn’t have friends, friends who weren’t OK with him constantly interrupting a hangout so he could text his parents weren’t “real friends,” etc.— and I do sometimes think he takes that out on me by putting my in last place when it comes to priorities. If he’s out with coworkers for drinks and it goes two hours late, he doesn’t think “I’ll text my girlfriend so she knows she can eat dinner/go to bed/know I’m not dead,” he thinks, “well, in the past I would have texted my parents 10 times by now, and I’d be terrified to be out with friends and even more terrified to go out a minute later than I said I would, but that was an unhealthy situation and stoneandstar is not my mom so I just won’t text.” On the one hand, great that he doesn’t think I’m also smothering. On the other, please fricking text me.
I bring this up because I think it’s possibly related to the main issue, which is that bf is very “ambivalent.” For example, he works with people in a high powered field (think finance), but he himself is not a “financial professional.” (Using finance as a placeholder.) He often complains about people at work, within reasonable limits— they are rich but always think ethics are someone else’s responsibility, they are professionals but are childish and don’t have their shit together, they’re always making inappropriate comments to one another and their work parties are a shitshow, etc. But then when a party comes around, he goes (normal) and socializes (normal) but also kind of... tattles on them to me? Tells me this random secretary was making inappropriate racy “jokey” comments to him? Starts indulging in binge drinking he doesn’t at any other time (including when our friends and I used to do it)? Acts more like them in temperament, just in subtle ways, where he’s suddenly impressed by things he never was before, interested in new things but expressing it in words that don’t sound like his own, etc.
Last time this happened (this holiday season) I got kind of pissed. I got emotional and sarcastic about it and said I didn’t want to feel like his moral alibi, someone he could tell that he hates these people so that I carry water for him when he gets off on their bad behavior. I also said that his work friends sounded mostly like jackasses, but of course they sounded that way to me because all he ever told me about them was negative, never a single positive thing, but despite all that if he just admitted he likes hanging out with them for whatever reason (we’re kind of lonely atm in our city and are both slow to make new friends), I wouldn’t even really mind. I just hate that he goes out with them, comes home kind of wired, and then tells me all the inappropriate boundary crossing things they do like I would for some reason want to hear about it and not feel jealous or angry or protective. I said I feel like a psychological dumping ground where he can act out this drama of being the good boy but also getting to go out and be naughty, as long as he tattles later.
I didn’t say all of this in one long breath, it was a back-and-forth conversation, but he didn’t have a lot to say about himself, just said in various ways that he understood that he’s putting me in a bad place and apologized. But I feel like I kind of... went too hard critiquing and criticizing his behaviors, and was to some degree makes excuses for my own negative feelings (jealousy) by blaming them on the way he tells me about things. Because the way he tells me about things can be aggravating, but even if he did everything right, I’d probably still feel jealous, protective, etc. at times.
To circle back— in the past, with his family, it was similar. He would tell me about horrible things his parents would do or say (not overt unambiguous abuse but just crazy meltdowns they’d have where they’d make unreasonable demands or say weird things, on a few occasions about me). I’d be like “wtf, that’s horrible.” But then when it happened in the present tense, I’d be like “yea it’s still horrible!!” and he would sort of be like “well, it’s not that bad, they love me, etc.” Which, I’m sure they do. But when it came time to make a choice between capitulating to crazy demands or not, he’d usually choose to capitulate. And then we’d be in a situation where I’d be fairly annoyed that our lives were constrained by this weird toxic situation, but he’d think I was being way too harsh and judging too hard. And I fully admit that I often was pretty harsh, especially when the choice was me vs. them, but in most of these situations it was pretty obvious that he felt a strong guilt-induced obligation toward his parents but very little obligation to me, and while I don’t mind indulging weird parental stuff from time to time (never a problem with any of my exes’ families), it was... too much. Too much built up resentment and I’d kind of explode. In other words I was and can be now quite an asshole, and even if it’s triggered by these situations primarily, I’m still being an asshole.
Anyway, I find myself kind of frozen in this scenario. Boyfriend can be really kind in many ways, does a lot around the house, genuinely seems to appreciate me, my sense of humor, interests, etc. But this dynamic feels like it’s driving me insane and I think I am a pretty shit amateur psychologist, so I’d really like it to be... not my problem. But I feel deep down that I’m contributing to the dynamic quite a bit myself, and I can’t really unpack this situation well enough to understand where I’m in the wrong. I know I need an actual real life therapist for this, but for logistical reasons it has to wait, and I would like to hear any insights from the crowd to basically answer the question, why does this feel so screwed up and what can I do?
I get that you have to bend a little around coworkers and go along to get along, etc. But why does it feel like I’m always just some kind of... microwave background radiation of his life, and not really seeing him?
Best answer: I don't have advice, just validation, that are you doing much more than your fair share of emotional labor in this relationship. We all have our shit, and sometimes we go through really rough spots where things are (temporarily) 90/10. However, this sounds pretty constant; also, it sounds like your boyfriend can't even acknowledge that it's a problem and so painful for you. That's really hard if not fatal for a relationship in the long term.
As for now, I'd look into setting boundaries for such discussions. We can help you create a script if needed. As for his not texting, I'd just assume he won't text and plan your life accordingly! You can choose to eat dinner/go to bed/etc. whenever you want. You set a boundary with yourself: "If I don't hear from him by 6 p.m., I will make my own plans" or what not. Since he doesn't seem open to making any changes the way things are now, the person who needs to start changing is you in terms of how you deal with him. Chances are you'll feel much happier and, if he has an issue with it, he can start making changes himself. But again, the situation sounds very imbalanced and frustrating.
posted by smorgasbord at 3:42 PM on December 23, 2018 [9 favorites]
As for now, I'd look into setting boundaries for such discussions. We can help you create a script if needed. As for his not texting, I'd just assume he won't text and plan your life accordingly! You can choose to eat dinner/go to bed/etc. whenever you want. You set a boundary with yourself: "If I don't hear from him by 6 p.m., I will make my own plans" or what not. Since he doesn't seem open to making any changes the way things are now, the person who needs to start changing is you in terms of how you deal with him. Chances are you'll feel much happier and, if he has an issue with it, he can start making changes himself. But again, the situation sounds very imbalanced and frustrating.
posted by smorgasbord at 3:42 PM on December 23, 2018 [9 favorites]
Best answer: Your partner experienced trauma growing up and all of his weird behavior is a trauma response. Hating/loving/hating his coworkers; sincerely wanting to change things but not actually making any changes; dumping emotions on you inappropriately; drinking and partying to numb his pain: these are all very common symptoms of PTSD/C-PTSD. I know we can’t diagnose but it just all screams “trauma response.”
If you want to reframe this issue, read up on dysfunctional families and PTSD. It will at least help you understand a little why he does these things.
Do keep in mind he may or may not recognize that this is going on, or he may not want to admit that he knows this about himself. There is significant stigma for especially men having mental health issues and he may bristle about talking with you about them.
None of this is to excuse his behavior. If he is bitching about co-workers, it is reasonable to say (for example): “You complain about your coworkers, yet you choose to hang out with them. It makes me feel angry because it seems like you are just using me as your sounding board to complain. Which makes me feel worthless. So in the future, please do not complain about them to me.” Of course he may view this all from a completely different perspective. Maybe he wants support and validation from you but doesn’t know how to get it and he thinks this is the way? It is definitely worth bringing this behavior to light, telling him the impact it is having on you, and seeing what his motivations are.
And even if you are a jealous type of person or even if you have your own hang ups, it is always okay to state a boundary.
posted by shalom at 4:08 PM on December 23, 2018 [10 favorites]
If you want to reframe this issue, read up on dysfunctional families and PTSD. It will at least help you understand a little why he does these things.
Do keep in mind he may or may not recognize that this is going on, or he may not want to admit that he knows this about himself. There is significant stigma for especially men having mental health issues and he may bristle about talking with you about them.
None of this is to excuse his behavior. If he is bitching about co-workers, it is reasonable to say (for example): “You complain about your coworkers, yet you choose to hang out with them. It makes me feel angry because it seems like you are just using me as your sounding board to complain. Which makes me feel worthless. So in the future, please do not complain about them to me.” Of course he may view this all from a completely different perspective. Maybe he wants support and validation from you but doesn’t know how to get it and he thinks this is the way? It is definitely worth bringing this behavior to light, telling him the impact it is having on you, and seeing what his motivations are.
And even if you are a jealous type of person or even if you have your own hang ups, it is always okay to state a boundary.
posted by shalom at 4:08 PM on December 23, 2018 [10 favorites]
Best answer: How old are you guys? I know the type, but I've either lost touch with them or they grew out of it by their mid 20s.
Seconding the general advice above - if your bf doesn't have the concienciousness to text you, plan your life around yourself, not him.
As for the weird tattley behaviour, just nod and smile. I also know this type, and its part and parcel with his altered behaviour when hanging out "with the cool kids." He thinks these stories about awful people have cachet with you ... when they obviously don't, or aren't "worth" as much as he thinks.
If you do end up interacting with people you've heard horrible stories about, try not to let it colour your perception of them. Until/ unless their true colours negatively impact you yourself.
posted by porpoise at 4:11 PM on December 23, 2018 [2 favorites]
Seconding the general advice above - if your bf doesn't have the concienciousness to text you, plan your life around yourself, not him.
As for the weird tattley behaviour, just nod and smile. I also know this type, and its part and parcel with his altered behaviour when hanging out "with the cool kids." He thinks these stories about awful people have cachet with you ... when they obviously don't, or aren't "worth" as much as he thinks.
If you do end up interacting with people you've heard horrible stories about, try not to let it colour your perception of them. Until/ unless their true colours negatively impact you yourself.
posted by porpoise at 4:11 PM on December 23, 2018 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: These first comments have actually helped me clarify something already— I felt intuitively that telling him to quit telling me all this negative stuff if he was going to continue to be actively involved with all these people (both family and coworkers) was boundary setting, but it didn’t feel right. I don’t know WHY his behavior makes me feel worthless, but it does! I can’t explain why. It feels weird to set a boundary over something I can’t explain.
I was also afraid that this was less boundary setting and more me just getting snippy and jealous, which is a thing I used to do more of (with previous guys, not this one). It feels wrong to say “don’t confide in me about these things that hurt/upset you.” Isn’t that a big part of relationships? (Rhetorical question, I know the way it’s playing out between us is wrong, I just... can’t explain why in a compelling way.)
posted by stoneandstar at 4:40 PM on December 23, 2018
I was also afraid that this was less boundary setting and more me just getting snippy and jealous, which is a thing I used to do more of (with previous guys, not this one). It feels wrong to say “don’t confide in me about these things that hurt/upset you.” Isn’t that a big part of relationships? (Rhetorical question, I know the way it’s playing out between us is wrong, I just... can’t explain why in a compelling way.)
posted by stoneandstar at 4:40 PM on December 23, 2018
Best answer: (Rhetorical question, I know the way it’s playing out between us is wrong, I just... can’t explain why in a compelling way.)
Must you explain it logically? Feelings are feelings; it should be enough to say, listen, when you do X, I don't like it / it makes me feel annoyed / angry / etc. You shouldn't have to say any more than that.
But yeah this is a weird dynamic – I wouldn't want to hear about those bozos' every move either.
posted by profreader at 5:11 PM on December 23, 2018 [5 favorites]
Must you explain it logically? Feelings are feelings; it should be enough to say, listen, when you do X, I don't like it / it makes me feel annoyed / angry / etc. You shouldn't have to say any more than that.
But yeah this is a weird dynamic – I wouldn't want to hear about those bozos' every move either.
posted by profreader at 5:11 PM on December 23, 2018 [5 favorites]
Best answer: Yes, as someone said above and you hit on it -- you had the courage to set a boundary. That's what you needed to do. It makes you feel slightly sick for a while, like you did something wrong or pushed too hard. But you didn't . You did great, so no worries there.
One other thing I'm curious about -- if you're his girlfriend, why on earth is he not inviting you to these things? Not that you'd want to go, given what you've heard about these people, but that's not the point. The point is, you should be invited. So this guy comes home after a social night out that you weren't invited to, and regales you with every thing that happened, including other women making racy jokes with him (what is he trying to tell you here?), and yet expects you to find these tales of tedium amusing? Huh? You're beyond right to be fed to the teeth with this. He's exaggerating how awful these people are so as to forestall a reaction of jealousy from you. He's all, "Right, you weren't invited again Stoneandstar, but you'd hate them anyway, believe me." Again, that's not the point.
It's like having an affair with a married guy -- he seemed so charming, but suddenly you realize he just wants to talk about stuff that doesn't involve you or touch your life in any way. And he doesn't seem to be all that interested in your life. He is, in fact, a crashing bore.
Plus he's a handful. I agree with the commenter who mentioned PTSD. It's too bad he has issues, but do you want to play nursemaid to this man indefinitely?
If you're not married, don't have kids together, and don't own property or a business together -- I'd advise seriously thinking about getting out from under this soon. He could be the nicest guy in the world at heart, but he's treating you disrespectfully.
And he's boring!
Please take care of yourself, and put yourself first :-)
posted by cartoonella at 5:37 PM on December 23, 2018 [14 favorites]
One other thing I'm curious about -- if you're his girlfriend, why on earth is he not inviting you to these things? Not that you'd want to go, given what you've heard about these people, but that's not the point. The point is, you should be invited. So this guy comes home after a social night out that you weren't invited to, and regales you with every thing that happened, including other women making racy jokes with him (what is he trying to tell you here?), and yet expects you to find these tales of tedium amusing? Huh? You're beyond right to be fed to the teeth with this. He's exaggerating how awful these people are so as to forestall a reaction of jealousy from you. He's all, "Right, you weren't invited again Stoneandstar, but you'd hate them anyway, believe me." Again, that's not the point.
It's like having an affair with a married guy -- he seemed so charming, but suddenly you realize he just wants to talk about stuff that doesn't involve you or touch your life in any way. And he doesn't seem to be all that interested in your life. He is, in fact, a crashing bore.
Plus he's a handful. I agree with the commenter who mentioned PTSD. It's too bad he has issues, but do you want to play nursemaid to this man indefinitely?
If you're not married, don't have kids together, and don't own property or a business together -- I'd advise seriously thinking about getting out from under this soon. He could be the nicest guy in the world at heart, but he's treating you disrespectfully.
And he's boring!
Please take care of yourself, and put yourself first :-)
posted by cartoonella at 5:37 PM on December 23, 2018 [14 favorites]
To address your first point - it's good of you to be understanding regarding him texting when he's out with his friends, but the fact that he was in a crappy situation with his parents checking in on him before doesn't absolve him of the responsibility to let you know what he's up to. Sending your partner a text that says "I'm going to be late, don't wait up for me" is the bog-standard minimum acceptable communication - it lets you know that they're not dead, and lets you go ahead and eat/sleep/whatever you need to do. You guys can make an agreement that if he texts you that, you'll respond with "ok, have fun", and leave him be after that if that makes him feel more comfortable with texting, but his comfort is not more important than yours - you should not have to spend an evening waiting and worrying just to spare him the minute it would take to send you a damn text.
posted by 5_13_23_42_69_666 at 5:42 PM on December 23, 2018 [7 favorites]
posted by 5_13_23_42_69_666 at 5:42 PM on December 23, 2018 [7 favorites]
Response by poster: He's exaggerating how awful these people are so as to forestall a reaction of jealousy from you
Final comment, but... yes! I totally don’t get this! If he’s trying to flirt or is attracted to someone at work, why alert me to that? If he’s trying to make me jealous for attention, then why would he try to mitigate the jealousy? I can’t grasp what’s going on with him, I just know that it feels bad, is annoying and boring. It feels very baroque and as mentioned, post-traumatic.
I should have asked this in the original question but resources/reading about this sort of thing would also be useful if anyone has them. I recently read Drama of the Gifted Child, actually, and it brushed up against some of this. It’s probably hard for me to untangle my own trauma responses from his at the moment.
posted by stoneandstar at 6:05 PM on December 23, 2018 [1 favorite]
Final comment, but... yes! I totally don’t get this! If he’s trying to flirt or is attracted to someone at work, why alert me to that? If he’s trying to make me jealous for attention, then why would he try to mitigate the jealousy? I can’t grasp what’s going on with him, I just know that it feels bad, is annoying and boring. It feels very baroque and as mentioned, post-traumatic.
I should have asked this in the original question but resources/reading about this sort of thing would also be useful if anyone has them. I recently read Drama of the Gifted Child, actually, and it brushed up against some of this. It’s probably hard for me to untangle my own trauma responses from his at the moment.
posted by stoneandstar at 6:05 PM on December 23, 2018 [1 favorite]
Best answer: It feels screwed up because it is screwed up. You've been placed on "bad parent" shift, and he's still playing, "rebellious teenaged boy."
He's coming to you saying, "I don't like my friends, my friends are bad people," but when you say, "then why are you playing with them?" You get painted black
He's saying, "my secretary pushes inapproptiate boundaries with me," and then going out all hours with co-workers and not even texting, but then you are painted black for being jealous and smothering.
He's saying, "bad parent does This Thing because of This Reason, and so I am absolved of all because you are also like Bad Parent if you want This similar-but-not-the-same-thing," and you don't get any say in that.
He's catering to eveyone else's demands, wants and needs, but not yours, as you are expected to manage your own wants and needs in the relationship in entirely. You are again, painted black as bad parent for expecting him to adult and treat you as one.
He's even got an unstable self-identity thing going on around multiple different groups of people.
I'd personally guess this leaning more towards BPD than PTSD, but I'm also a not a psychologist. It sounds like he needs some heavy therapy to address why he's placed his partner in Bad Parent role and how to reshift the dynamic to Partners.
I'm not sure what ages you both are, but part of growing up means growing into an understanding that family of origin issues may provide a reason, but they no longer give an excuse.
posted by OnefortheLast at 6:36 PM on December 23, 2018 [11 favorites]
He's coming to you saying, "I don't like my friends, my friends are bad people," but when you say, "then why are you playing with them?" You get painted black
He's saying, "my secretary pushes inapproptiate boundaries with me," and then going out all hours with co-workers and not even texting, but then you are painted black for being jealous and smothering.
He's saying, "bad parent does This Thing because of This Reason, and so I am absolved of all because you are also like Bad Parent if you want This similar-but-not-the-same-thing," and you don't get any say in that.
He's catering to eveyone else's demands, wants and needs, but not yours, as you are expected to manage your own wants and needs in the relationship in entirely. You are again, painted black as bad parent for expecting him to adult and treat you as one.
He's even got an unstable self-identity thing going on around multiple different groups of people.
I'd personally guess this leaning more towards BPD than PTSD, but I'm also a not a psychologist. It sounds like he needs some heavy therapy to address why he's placed his partner in Bad Parent role and how to reshift the dynamic to Partners.
I'm not sure what ages you both are, but part of growing up means growing into an understanding that family of origin issues may provide a reason, but they no longer give an excuse.
posted by OnefortheLast at 6:36 PM on December 23, 2018 [11 favorites]
Best answer: I think your boyfriend either tells you what you want to hear or avoids telling you anything at all. Hence telling you about how awful these people you obviously hate/disdain are (like his family and coworkers). He's probably also trying to tell you how different he is from them so that you won't hate/disdain him like you do them. And hence not telling you when he's going to be late, because he knows it's not what you want to hear.
This dynamic seems really entrenched and I don't think fixing it is a DIY job.
posted by rue72 at 7:07 PM on December 23, 2018 [1 favorite]
This dynamic seems really entrenched and I don't think fixing it is a DIY job.
posted by rue72 at 7:07 PM on December 23, 2018 [1 favorite]
Best answer: I don’t know WHY his behavior makes me feel worthless, but it does!
Part of you recognizes this as gaslighting.
If everyone he interacts with is horrible, then his own flaws are minor or nonexistent; he's terrific and surrounded by assholes. Which may have been true when he was a child, but now... he chooses his job. He chooses to spend time with these people. He chooses how much contact to have with relatives.
So you know that he's lying to you about how much he hates them and how awful they are (or he'd leave); he's trying to convince you to trust his judgment instead of making up your own mind.
Couple of things to consider:
1) What does he say about his girlfriend, when he's talking to coworkers?
2) If all of the people he chooses to spend time with are terrible, what does that make you?
You feel bad because he's telling you, "you are the only good thing in my life; you are my shelter from this evil" - but then he won't let you actually do anything to help him. He won't take advice like, "don't spend time with them;" he certainly doesn't want you to call them up and tell them to stop being jerks.
To figure out whether he might change this behavior, you'll have to look at who he speaks well of. Are there people he admires, people he respects, who are involved in his work life? If not - if every single person he mentions is somehow flawed in a way he feels compelled to mention - he's letting you know he thinks respect or value is a zero-sum game; if someone else is awesome, he can't be. And that's well beyond a girlfriend's ability to change.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 7:42 PM on December 23, 2018 [13 favorites]
Part of you recognizes this as gaslighting.
If everyone he interacts with is horrible, then his own flaws are minor or nonexistent; he's terrific and surrounded by assholes. Which may have been true when he was a child, but now... he chooses his job. He chooses to spend time with these people. He chooses how much contact to have with relatives.
So you know that he's lying to you about how much he hates them and how awful they are (or he'd leave); he's trying to convince you to trust his judgment instead of making up your own mind.
Couple of things to consider:
1) What does he say about his girlfriend, when he's talking to coworkers?
2) If all of the people he chooses to spend time with are terrible, what does that make you?
You feel bad because he's telling you, "you are the only good thing in my life; you are my shelter from this evil" - but then he won't let you actually do anything to help him. He won't take advice like, "don't spend time with them;" he certainly doesn't want you to call them up and tell them to stop being jerks.
To figure out whether he might change this behavior, you'll have to look at who he speaks well of. Are there people he admires, people he respects, who are involved in his work life? If not - if every single person he mentions is somehow flawed in a way he feels compelled to mention - he's letting you know he thinks respect or value is a zero-sum game; if someone else is awesome, he can't be. And that's well beyond a girlfriend's ability to change.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 7:42 PM on December 23, 2018 [13 favorites]
Best answer: (The Bad Parent comment above is pretty insightful!)
My comment, though, was just going to be about this: "It feels wrong to say 'don’t confide in me about these things that hurt/upset you.'" I think it's one thing to be there for HIM and HIS FEELINGS and another thing to be an audience to THEM. Maybe something like "I love you and want to be here for you, but frankly, your coworkers sounds kind of awful. If you're talking about them, can you focus it around you and what you're feeling and needing, so that I can support you without feeling the grossed-out feeling I get when I hear too much about them?" It may be that he doesn't know yet what it's all about. Or can't put it into words. But if you ask this, it at least directs the conversation toward what is he wanting out of it rather than making you feel like the left out spectator or moral confessor or whatever. I also think that opting out of this dynamic emotionally as much as possible would be good, and by asking what he's looking for, you keep the focus on him and why he's engaging or telling you things, keeping yourself out of being a player in the drama.
posted by salvia at 10:06 PM on December 23, 2018 [3 favorites]
My comment, though, was just going to be about this: "It feels wrong to say 'don’t confide in me about these things that hurt/upset you.'" I think it's one thing to be there for HIM and HIS FEELINGS and another thing to be an audience to THEM. Maybe something like "I love you and want to be here for you, but frankly, your coworkers sounds kind of awful. If you're talking about them, can you focus it around you and what you're feeling and needing, so that I can support you without feeling the grossed-out feeling I get when I hear too much about them?" It may be that he doesn't know yet what it's all about. Or can't put it into words. But if you ask this, it at least directs the conversation toward what is he wanting out of it rather than making you feel like the left out spectator or moral confessor or whatever. I also think that opting out of this dynamic emotionally as much as possible would be good, and by asking what he's looking for, you keep the focus on him and why he's engaging or telling you things, keeping yourself out of being a player in the drama.
posted by salvia at 10:06 PM on December 23, 2018 [3 favorites]
Best answer: Even toxic systems usually have some parts that are normal and functional- they have to, or they would collapse.
So a parent who's making a kid text them 10 times a night and come home at 7pm is being toxic, yes, because they're being extreme and controlling. But embedded within that toxic system are some rational points, like the fact that a person SHOULD text their life partner once or twice about their plans, and they SHOULD come home at an agreed-upon time (and sometimes that can look like saying "tonight's gonna be a bender, don't wait up!" which is still more considerate than leaving it ambiguous).
Or a jealous partner might unreasonably say, "when you tell me about other women flirting with you I feel shitty so you must nevarrr evarrr speak to other women"; but if you strip away the unreasonableness there's a less extreme version embedded in there: "when I hear about other women flirting with you I feel insecure, and I would feel much safer if I trusted that you would nip their flirtation in the bud by telling them you have a happy partnership, and also not tell me every single salacious detail when the flirting does happen!"
When you get used to a toxic system, it's hard to create a new healthy system for yourself because the tendency may be just to reject the whole system! I'm not texing anyone! I'm gonna flirt my face off!
But as adults, we can make our own decisions and we should decide what kind of person we want to be. So we should look at things that annoy us and deconstruct what it is that annoys us, and also decide what kind of person we want to be within that system.
Maybe boyfriend hates interrupting the fun to text, especially in front of his friends, bc it feels disempowering. Ok, so he doesn't have to do that. But communicating plans doesn't have to feel disempowering. So maybe he can decide to ballpark his homecoming time to you before he gets to the bar... and if things change, send you ONE text about it, from the restroom, to let you know. Now you both win- he gets to stay out and not feel guilty or teased for being too attached to his partner, and you get to know when he's coming home and feel thought of.
Obviously that's just one solution; there are millions of possible ways to solve the issue; my point is that as an adult he can interrogate his resistance, and then find a solution that fits your needs and also doesn't annoy himself unduly. He can adjust the system, and mine its value, not just throw the system away because it used to make him feel bad.
A bigger problem is that you seem very good at interrogating YOUR feelings, and from what you've written here, he isn't doing that at all. He is actually dumping his shit into you- forcing you to pay for his childhood trauma and his contempt of his coworkers, by monologuing at you and dismissing your needs, rather than working those things out himself and improving them, so he can stop downloading his bad feelings at you and making them your problem.
To some degree that dynamic is kind of standard between women and men - women are largely the ones doing meditation and journalling and therapy and yoga and mindfulness to sort out their emotions, while waaay too many men just let their pasts become a toxic stew, and then dump it on a woman...
...but there are definitely LOTS of men out there who do actually THINK about their feelings and then let those insights positively CHANGE their behaviour.
Since you are good at that, you might be happier with a partner who is also good at that.
posted by pseudostrabismus at 10:22 PM on December 23, 2018 [13 favorites]
So a parent who's making a kid text them 10 times a night and come home at 7pm is being toxic, yes, because they're being extreme and controlling. But embedded within that toxic system are some rational points, like the fact that a person SHOULD text their life partner once or twice about their plans, and they SHOULD come home at an agreed-upon time (and sometimes that can look like saying "tonight's gonna be a bender, don't wait up!" which is still more considerate than leaving it ambiguous).
Or a jealous partner might unreasonably say, "when you tell me about other women flirting with you I feel shitty so you must nevarrr evarrr speak to other women"; but if you strip away the unreasonableness there's a less extreme version embedded in there: "when I hear about other women flirting with you I feel insecure, and I would feel much safer if I trusted that you would nip their flirtation in the bud by telling them you have a happy partnership, and also not tell me every single salacious detail when the flirting does happen!"
When you get used to a toxic system, it's hard to create a new healthy system for yourself because the tendency may be just to reject the whole system! I'm not texing anyone! I'm gonna flirt my face off!
But as adults, we can make our own decisions and we should decide what kind of person we want to be. So we should look at things that annoy us and deconstruct what it is that annoys us, and also decide what kind of person we want to be within that system.
Maybe boyfriend hates interrupting the fun to text, especially in front of his friends, bc it feels disempowering. Ok, so he doesn't have to do that. But communicating plans doesn't have to feel disempowering. So maybe he can decide to ballpark his homecoming time to you before he gets to the bar... and if things change, send you ONE text about it, from the restroom, to let you know. Now you both win- he gets to stay out and not feel guilty or teased for being too attached to his partner, and you get to know when he's coming home and feel thought of.
Obviously that's just one solution; there are millions of possible ways to solve the issue; my point is that as an adult he can interrogate his resistance, and then find a solution that fits your needs and also doesn't annoy himself unduly. He can adjust the system, and mine its value, not just throw the system away because it used to make him feel bad.
A bigger problem is that you seem very good at interrogating YOUR feelings, and from what you've written here, he isn't doing that at all. He is actually dumping his shit into you- forcing you to pay for his childhood trauma and his contempt of his coworkers, by monologuing at you and dismissing your needs, rather than working those things out himself and improving them, so he can stop downloading his bad feelings at you and making them your problem.
To some degree that dynamic is kind of standard between women and men - women are largely the ones doing meditation and journalling and therapy and yoga and mindfulness to sort out their emotions, while waaay too many men just let their pasts become a toxic stew, and then dump it on a woman...
...but there are definitely LOTS of men out there who do actually THINK about their feelings and then let those insights positively CHANGE their behaviour.
Since you are good at that, you might be happier with a partner who is also good at that.
posted by pseudostrabismus at 10:22 PM on December 23, 2018 [13 favorites]
Response by poster: I’m sure I’m using these issues as a distraction from time to time, but I’m also doing a lot of work on myself at the moment and waking up to all of this. In the past I would have thought “I was just jealous and let it get to me; next time I should be nicer and a listening ear.” But I’m learning to trust my instincts more and understand that my self-punishing reactions are a result of very fucked up internal scripts. I’m not necessarily trying to fix him; I’m trying to figure out why this is pushing my buttons and if it’s appropriate or not.
It’s also not true that he doesn’t try to change or want to change. This is the first time we’ve actually started discussing this together (rather than me just blowing up). Sure, I could DTMFA, but I am playing into this dynamic too. I can get that indignant about him when until a couple days ago I didn’t realize myself how angry and triggered I was by something happening subconsciously.
OK, last comment for real. Thanks, everyone.
posted by stoneandstar at 11:41 AM on December 24, 2018 [3 favorites]
It’s also not true that he doesn’t try to change or want to change. This is the first time we’ve actually started discussing this together (rather than me just blowing up). Sure, I could DTMFA, but I am playing into this dynamic too. I can get that indignant about him when until a couple days ago I didn’t realize myself how angry and triggered I was by something happening subconsciously.
OK, last comment for real. Thanks, everyone.
posted by stoneandstar at 11:41 AM on December 24, 2018 [3 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
My advice will seem counterproductive in a way, but hear me out...
You’ve correctly identified a thoroughly toxic dynamic. Instead of identifying your part, how about just hyper focusing on yourself and politely ignoring your bf when he engages like this? Just stop playing the game. Be neutral. Get involved in activities that are the opposite, like volunteering or feeding homeless people in your neighborhood. I’m not sure this makes sense, but a recent example is when I had to spend time with folks I morally and ethically disagreed with, afterwards I used to buy food and practical items for homeless women in my neighborhood and deliver them. If someone was awful in front of me, my reaction was to go out and do something selfless for someone in need. That was my reaction instead of correcting the person I was in relationship with.
Your bf has to grow up on his own. His choices effect you in the meantime, put your energy around his behavior to good use.
posted by jbenben at 3:36 PM on December 23, 2018 [11 favorites]