Allowing dogs to roam free on rural property
October 24, 2018 8:55 PM Subscribe
My boyfriend are in the midst of a major disagreement about whether or not dogs should be allowed to roam free outside, without supervision and without a fence.
I strongly believe dogs should be kept indoors when not supervised, only allowed outside on a leash or contained within a fenced-in area. I've heard that some dogs can be trusted to stay nearby and will consisently respond to voice commands, but this seems to be the exception and not the norm.
I can come up with tons of reasons to back my opinion -- the dog hurting other people or other dogs, damaging other people's property/farm animals, other dogs attacking our dog, vet bills caused by the dog picking up diseases from other animals or getting injured by cars, the dog getting picked up by animal control and potentially euthanized, people taking the dog or harming it, the dog causing damage or trauma to local wildlife, the dog causing a car accident and injuring/killing the car's occupants, the dog getting maimed in a hunting trap....etc.
However, boyfriend seems to be of the (firmly held) mindset that dogs are somehow "happier" and "fine" when they are allowed to roam free, without restraint or supervision. Possibly relevant - he lives in an outer suburban/rural area in the South, and owns a few acres of land that are a few miles from mid-traffic roads. You can hear coyotees at night but there are no other predators; his neighbors own poultry and other livestock. He has owned dogs before (including while living outside the US) and has always let them roam free and has never had a bad experience. He poopoos the risks (such as car accidents) when I bring them up, and I get the sense that he sees my viewpoint as overly anxious and coddling.
He is normally an extremely rational person, but for whatever reason, the above logic does nothing to change his mind because he sees it as overblown. He also seems to be coming at this from a philosophical vantage point - that people are too anxious and controlling about things like this, and that it's best just to let things be. How do I reason with this?
We had been talking about adopting a dog together soon, but I can no longer support that decision until he's either changed his mind, or agreed to do things my way.
I strongly believe dogs should be kept indoors when not supervised, only allowed outside on a leash or contained within a fenced-in area. I've heard that some dogs can be trusted to stay nearby and will consisently respond to voice commands, but this seems to be the exception and not the norm.
I can come up with tons of reasons to back my opinion -- the dog hurting other people or other dogs, damaging other people's property/farm animals, other dogs attacking our dog, vet bills caused by the dog picking up diseases from other animals or getting injured by cars, the dog getting picked up by animal control and potentially euthanized, people taking the dog or harming it, the dog causing damage or trauma to local wildlife, the dog causing a car accident and injuring/killing the car's occupants, the dog getting maimed in a hunting trap....etc.
However, boyfriend seems to be of the (firmly held) mindset that dogs are somehow "happier" and "fine" when they are allowed to roam free, without restraint or supervision. Possibly relevant - he lives in an outer suburban/rural area in the South, and owns a few acres of land that are a few miles from mid-traffic roads. You can hear coyotees at night but there are no other predators; his neighbors own poultry and other livestock. He has owned dogs before (including while living outside the US) and has always let them roam free and has never had a bad experience. He poopoos the risks (such as car accidents) when I bring them up, and I get the sense that he sees my viewpoint as overly anxious and coddling.
He is normally an extremely rational person, but for whatever reason, the above logic does nothing to change his mind because he sees it as overblown. He also seems to be coming at this from a philosophical vantage point - that people are too anxious and controlling about things like this, and that it's best just to let things be. How do I reason with this?
We had been talking about adopting a dog together soon, but I can no longer support that decision until he's either changed his mind, or agreed to do things my way.
Depends on the breed and the dog. Bloodhounds, for example, will follow a scent for miles and wander away. German shepherds are happiest when within 70 feet of you or usually less. Huskies will escape to run. Great Danes will keep a lazy eye on you.
For some dogs, a few miles effectively is a fence, for others it’s not. It really depends.
posted by corb at 9:09 PM on October 24, 2018 [28 favorites]
For some dogs, a few miles effectively is a fence, for others it’s not. It really depends.
posted by corb at 9:09 PM on October 24, 2018 [28 favorites]
He has a typical bad dog owner attitude, to be blunt, with no concern for the consequences of his self-indulgent view of his canine(s).
posted by thelonius at 9:09 PM on October 24, 2018 [58 favorites]
posted by thelonius at 9:09 PM on October 24, 2018 [58 favorites]
My husband grew up in the country and his family let their dogs roam. Most of them made it back home in one piece, but some didn’t. One got caught in a fox trap and had to get his leg amputated. (I should mention it is sheer grace that his family found him in time, as he could have starved or bled to death instead). “Should the dog be allowed to roam” is a different question than whether it is safe for them to do so. I personally wouldn’t unless absolutely necessary, but that’s just me—I try to avoid paying vet bills because I know I couldn’t let a pet suffer and I’d certainly be out thousands, so I try to prevent injury ahead of time. YMMV and I honestly don’t believe there is a “right” answer to your question.
posted by shalom at 9:14 PM on October 24, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by shalom at 9:14 PM on October 24, 2018 [3 favorites]
Your boyfriend is correct. Dogs probably are happier when they can do as they please. Who isn't happier when they have more nature in which to frolick?!
You are also correct. I was on a bike tour once and watched a happy frolicking puppy get run down by a truck. It twitched a bunch and then died. Or maybe died and then twitched a bunch? Not sure how these things work. Afterwards I went to the nearest general store and bought a couple loaves of wonderbread and a tub of margarine (which promptly melted in the heat) and emotion-ate them all.
You're both right.
posted by aniola at 9:20 PM on October 24, 2018 [23 favorites]
You are also correct. I was on a bike tour once and watched a happy frolicking puppy get run down by a truck. It twitched a bunch and then died. Or maybe died and then twitched a bunch? Not sure how these things work. Afterwards I went to the nearest general store and bought a couple loaves of wonderbread and a tub of margarine (which promptly melted in the heat) and emotion-ate them all.
You're both right.
posted by aniola at 9:20 PM on October 24, 2018 [23 favorites]
It’s bonkers he’s making such a sweeping generalized statement. Depending on the breed, the individual temperment of the dog, and the surrounding environment this is OBVIOUSLY anywhere from “just fine” to “omg call animal control!”
I feel like you know this.
The real question is why he’s trying to intellectually bully you about this, and if you’re going to keep dating him or not? It really seems like he’s trying to overly simplify his position for the sake of some sort of power play? Know what I mean??
You don’t have to ask outsiders if it’s ok for dogs to run free or not because you already know the answer is nuanced, but in general it’s not safe for most breeds in most environments.
If you’re asking if your bf is being unusually and unconscionably difficult? Yes. Yes he is. Does he like you? Does he respect you? Because it sure looks like he’s insecure and out to win a point.
No. Don’t adopt a dog with someone who plays games like this with you. The entire endeavor will be one giant power struggle.
Adopt a dog with someone who likes and respects you.
posted by jbenben at 9:22 PM on October 24, 2018 [23 favorites]
I feel like you know this.
The real question is why he’s trying to intellectually bully you about this, and if you’re going to keep dating him or not? It really seems like he’s trying to overly simplify his position for the sake of some sort of power play? Know what I mean??
You don’t have to ask outsiders if it’s ok for dogs to run free or not because you already know the answer is nuanced, but in general it’s not safe for most breeds in most environments.
If you’re asking if your bf is being unusually and unconscionably difficult? Yes. Yes he is. Does he like you? Does he respect you? Because it sure looks like he’s insecure and out to win a point.
No. Don’t adopt a dog with someone who plays games like this with you. The entire endeavor will be one giant power struggle.
Adopt a dog with someone who likes and respects you.
posted by jbenben at 9:22 PM on October 24, 2018 [23 favorites]
oh man, so many memories of being rushed by free-range dogs when out bicycling in the coutryside. The dogs all seemed happy in their own way I guess, barking, frothing.
I'm sure if you live in the middle of nowhere it isn't an issue, if you live close to anyone else the issue isn't whether the dogs are happy, the issue is if they're in other people's business.
posted by GuyZero at 9:30 PM on October 24, 2018 [28 favorites]
I'm sure if you live in the middle of nowhere it isn't an issue, if you live close to anyone else the issue isn't whether the dogs are happy, the issue is if they're in other people's business.
posted by GuyZero at 9:30 PM on October 24, 2018 [28 favorites]
dogs are somehow "happier" and "fine" when they are allowed to roam free, without restraint or supervision
Dogs are probably a little happier when allowed to roam free... right up until something terrible happens to them. I think the net happiness is greater on your side. Also, regardless of happiness, you have a duty to protect the animal whose life you've taken responsibility for and all others that end up in the zone of control of your animal. My pet gecko would prefer to solely live off of insects, even though she needs a balanced diet to avoid calcium deficiency and other nutritional diseases. I, as a responsible owner, feed her what her body actually needs. Also, predators aren't the only animals that can mess up a dog; there are snakes, scorpions, etc. There are a number of reasons most animals live longer in captivity.
his neighbors own poultry and other livestock
I personally know of a allowed-to-roam dog that was intentionally poisoned by neighbors because it went after neighborhood poultry.
posted by vegartanipla at 9:32 PM on October 24, 2018 [19 favorites]
Dogs are probably a little happier when allowed to roam free... right up until something terrible happens to them. I think the net happiness is greater on your side. Also, regardless of happiness, you have a duty to protect the animal whose life you've taken responsibility for and all others that end up in the zone of control of your animal. My pet gecko would prefer to solely live off of insects, even though she needs a balanced diet to avoid calcium deficiency and other nutritional diseases. I, as a responsible owner, feed her what her body actually needs. Also, predators aren't the only animals that can mess up a dog; there are snakes, scorpions, etc. There are a number of reasons most animals live longer in captivity.
his neighbors own poultry and other livestock
I personally know of a allowed-to-roam dog that was intentionally poisoned by neighbors because it went after neighborhood poultry.
posted by vegartanipla at 9:32 PM on October 24, 2018 [19 favorites]
+1 to "it really depends on the dog and the space." I grew up in the unfenced sticks with a genuis Sheltie who knew all the boundaries of the property and would not roam beyond them. I also grew up with a Newfie who could not be trusted to stay home and who needed to be chained in the yard -- which seemed heartbreaking to six-year-old me.
Nowadays our city slicker chihuahua mix is never allowed to run free, only on a leash or in a fenced area, because she has rat terrier programming and will be off like a dart after any vermin she smells. But our neighbour's mutt is never walked on a leash and is extremely good about sticking with his family.
As for your situation, you're both firmly stuck on diametric positions, and it doesn't seem like you should adopt a dog together.
posted by Sauce Trough at 9:32 PM on October 24, 2018 [19 favorites]
Nowadays our city slicker chihuahua mix is never allowed to run free, only on a leash or in a fenced area, because she has rat terrier programming and will be off like a dart after any vermin she smells. But our neighbour's mutt is never walked on a leash and is extremely good about sticking with his family.
As for your situation, you're both firmly stuck on diametric positions, and it doesn't seem like you should adopt a dog together.
posted by Sauce Trough at 9:32 PM on October 24, 2018 [19 favorites]
I’m with you. Our dog was hit by a truck while she had the run of a property very similar to your boyfriend’s. I never forgave myself for letting my (ex-)boyfriend be the decider on that argument.
posted by stellaluna at 9:38 PM on October 24, 2018 [8 favorites]
posted by stellaluna at 9:38 PM on October 24, 2018 [8 favorites]
Could you at least compromise with an invisible electric fence?
Lots of people in my suburban neighborhood have these, and the dogs are perfectly happy roaming physically unrestrained but knowing their boundaries; some have even learned well-enough that they don't wear the electric collars anymore.
Or does the boyfriend actually insist that the dogs be able to wander miles down the road unsupervised? That's a different argument.
posted by jozxyqk at 9:38 PM on October 24, 2018 [6 favorites]
Lots of people in my suburban neighborhood have these, and the dogs are perfectly happy roaming physically unrestrained but knowing their boundaries; some have even learned well-enough that they don't wear the electric collars anymore.
Or does the boyfriend actually insist that the dogs be able to wander miles down the road unsupervised? That's a different argument.
posted by jozxyqk at 9:38 PM on October 24, 2018 [6 favorites]
Just weighing in with this-- small children would be happy about the prospect of eating candy all day and playing in the park without limitations on time...until an accident or a negative encounter happened. People who are in charge of small children must balance letting them play, explore, and take risks with reasonable limitations due to safety, health, and practicality.
Reiterating the above advice that you are both right. If allowed to roam, the dogs would be BOTH happier AND imperiled by uncontrollable circumstances that could negatively impact both the dog and you in severe ways.
posted by Temeraria at 9:43 PM on October 24, 2018 [11 favorites]
Reiterating the above advice that you are both right. If allowed to roam, the dogs would be BOTH happier AND imperiled by uncontrollable circumstances that could negatively impact both the dog and you in severe ways.
posted by Temeraria at 9:43 PM on October 24, 2018 [11 favorites]
You are right. Besides the plethora of safety issues there's also the fact that not everyone loves dogs. I used to have a very severe dog phobia that didn't go away til I was 19. I love dogs now, but oh man not as a kid. Even if your free roaming dog was the friendliest buddy, if he had run up to me when I was a kid I would have screamed and cried and maybe peed myself in a panic. If that happens to a stranger who's on the sidewalk or path near your property, then you have a potential lawsuit on your hands for inflicting emotional distress on a person- not to mention if the phobic person was vindictive they could call the city about a stray and make enough noise to possibly get the dog confiscated or put down as dangerous. Please don't get a dog with this person.
posted by Homo neanderthalensis at 9:50 PM on October 24, 2018 [9 favorites]
posted by Homo neanderthalensis at 9:50 PM on October 24, 2018 [9 favorites]
I’m not a dog person so I totally forgot electronic invisible fences are A Thing.
Just writing to remind you that a reasonable person you can responsibly adopt a dog with would put in effort to discuss options like invisible fences, appropriate breeds, training + weighing risks like roads, predators, and neighboring livestock that might become your potential dog’s prey. Right now he’s not having this quality of conversation with you, we are.
posted by jbenben at 9:56 PM on October 24, 2018 [13 favorites]
Just writing to remind you that a reasonable person you can responsibly adopt a dog with would put in effort to discuss options like invisible fences, appropriate breeds, training + weighing risks like roads, predators, and neighboring livestock that might become your potential dog’s prey. Right now he’s not having this quality of conversation with you, we are.
posted by jbenben at 9:56 PM on October 24, 2018 [13 favorites]
Free range dogs are happy right up until they get hit by a car or shot by a home owner because they are on their farm. I’m pretty sure they’re not happy then, so yes, you’re both right.
If you were just risking the life of your own dog, that would be one thing but you’re risking other dogs, sheep, the lives of people on the road who swerve to avoid hitting your animal and can get in all sorts of trouble, wildlife...the list goes on. If you don’t give a damn about anything or anyone else, sure, let the dog do whatever it wants. But if you’re at all responsible, you’ll keep it where you can control it.
posted by Jubey at 10:00 PM on October 24, 2018 [13 favorites]
If you were just risking the life of your own dog, that would be one thing but you’re risking other dogs, sheep, the lives of people on the road who swerve to avoid hitting your animal and can get in all sorts of trouble, wildlife...the list goes on. If you don’t give a damn about anything or anyone else, sure, let the dog do whatever it wants. But if you’re at all responsible, you’ll keep it where you can control it.
posted by Jubey at 10:00 PM on October 24, 2018 [13 favorites]
Toddlers are happier when you let them roam free, too, but I sure wouldn't do that either. Even if you were anxious and coddling, I'm pro-precautious anxiety and pro-coddling. All of the legal and financial dangerous you mention are real.
But that's not the real point. You and he disagree about this issue. He's not engaging with your concerns. He's worried about an animal's potential joy vs. your (and his) legal and financial risks and the animal's safety. When one person is more worried about something than the other in a joint venture (like raising animals or children) and one person is "philosophical" as you describe rather than practical, and the two do not come to a meeting of the minds, dismay often ensues. I suggest you don't move forward with adopting an animal together until you can come to a compromise with which you both feel comfortable.
Also, your boyfriend is the reason I was bitten as a child. (Not that he bit me, obviously. Unless your boyfriend is a really old dog. But that's another story.)
posted by The Wrong Kind of Cheese at 10:01 PM on October 24, 2018 [9 favorites]
But that's not the real point. You and he disagree about this issue. He's not engaging with your concerns. He's worried about an animal's potential joy vs. your (and his) legal and financial risks and the animal's safety. When one person is more worried about something than the other in a joint venture (like raising animals or children) and one person is "philosophical" as you describe rather than practical, and the two do not come to a meeting of the minds, dismay often ensues. I suggest you don't move forward with adopting an animal together until you can come to a compromise with which you both feel comfortable.
Also, your boyfriend is the reason I was bitten as a child. (Not that he bit me, obviously. Unless your boyfriend is a really old dog. But that's another story.)
posted by The Wrong Kind of Cheese at 10:01 PM on October 24, 2018 [9 favorites]
My parents are out in the country and totally live this life. Their last dog had a leg amputated after being hit by a truck in the middle of the night. I still feel guilt over childhood dogs that ran away and try to make up for it by spoiling our new puppy. My parent's current dog is allowed to run free but sticks pretty close to the house/barn. She's probably the most reliable dog they've ever had; she's also a house dog, so that might play a role in her willingness to stay close to home. Experience has taught me that happy, safe dogs have clear boundaries.
posted by WaspEnterprises at 12:14 AM on October 25, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by WaspEnterprises at 12:14 AM on October 25, 2018 [6 favorites]
I once lived in a city that had no pet control ordinance. There was endless trouble from roving dog packs. They damaged property, tipped garbage cans, scared people by barking and snarling, and attacked tied-up pets.
So your dog's wandering "rights" stop at my property line.
posted by Cranberry at 12:40 AM on October 25, 2018 [9 favorites]
So your dog's wandering "rights" stop at my property line.
posted by Cranberry at 12:40 AM on October 25, 2018 [9 favorites]
He’s right that this is fine for some dogs. But all the dogs I know of who lived like this rurally were working dogs who had jobs on the farms they lived on. I would worry about your average pet dog roaming free in those circumstances, especially when there are neighbours with livestock.
There do seem to be other areas of potential compromise here. For example, while I’ve never had a dog that was allowed to roam loose during the day, most* have been fine to be off-leash when out for walks away from roads, would not go far and would come to heel with a voice command. It shouldn’t at all be unusual for well-trained dogs to respond to commands like this, it’s certainly not the exception rather than the rule.
If you’re both of the belief that your approach is the only way to keep a dog and you won’t get one until the other person comes round 100% to your way of thinking, then probably best to change plans to a different type of pet.
(*with the exception of one terrier who no amount of training could deter from her quest to chase down smells and/or planes in the sky. She stayed on a lead and never did get to bring down that 747.)
posted by Catseye at 2:50 AM on October 25, 2018 [5 favorites]
There do seem to be other areas of potential compromise here. For example, while I’ve never had a dog that was allowed to roam loose during the day, most* have been fine to be off-leash when out for walks away from roads, would not go far and would come to heel with a voice command. It shouldn’t at all be unusual for well-trained dogs to respond to commands like this, it’s certainly not the exception rather than the rule.
If you’re both of the belief that your approach is the only way to keep a dog and you won’t get one until the other person comes round 100% to your way of thinking, then probably best to change plans to a different type of pet.
(*with the exception of one terrier who no amount of training could deter from her quest to chase down smells and/or planes in the sky. She stayed on a lead and never did get to bring down that 747.)
posted by Catseye at 2:50 AM on October 25, 2018 [5 favorites]
How do I reason with this?
He's never had a bad experience doing things his way, so you really can't.
You both sound inflexible on this, so y'all shouldn't adopt a dog together, because it's going to wind up being a constant source of tension, no matter the compromise.
Just move on from the issue and/or decide if its deal breaker.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 3:58 AM on October 25, 2018 [7 favorites]
He's never had a bad experience doing things his way, so you really can't.
You both sound inflexible on this, so y'all shouldn't adopt a dog together, because it's going to wind up being a constant source of tension, no matter the compromise.
Just move on from the issue and/or decide if its deal breaker.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 3:58 AM on October 25, 2018 [7 favorites]
You don't have a bad experience until you have one. And then you feel fucking terrible because your dog is injured/ dead / bit a child in the face/ murdered a whole lot of chickens. Sure, if he were adopting several sheepdogs in order to herd sheep, there probably won't be a problem (the farm I live nearby, the dogs roam free but are effectively human shadows, you never see one alone). But this is a pet dog right? Not a working dog?
If I were you, I totally agree with refusing to get a dog and risk those circumstances. Not worth the heartbreak. Forget philosophical reasoning, in this one instance he compromises with you or no dog. If this is a boundary for you, it is OK to enforce it.
posted by stillnocturnal at 4:23 AM on October 25, 2018 [2 favorites]
If I were you, I totally agree with refusing to get a dog and risk those circumstances. Not worth the heartbreak. Forget philosophical reasoning, in this one instance he compromises with you or no dog. If this is a boundary for you, it is OK to enforce it.
posted by stillnocturnal at 4:23 AM on October 25, 2018 [2 favorites]
I grew up in a very very rural area where my family was unusual in even letting dogs in the house. Most people in the country thought of dogs as outside animals although some would keep them tied up in the yard or in a fenced-in area. Our dogs always roamed free. So I do understand the mindset your boyfriend is coming from. And dogs actually CAN do this safely--as others say, it depends on the area and the dog. The dog my mother currently has, for example, doesn't leave the immediate vicinity of her house. There was trouble with earlier dogs when I was growing up, including a couple that chased livestock. On the other hand, having lived in cities for decades since, I am probably closer to your mindset (although I don't think what my mother does with her current dog is a problem--it really doesn't go anywhere outside of the yard!)
All this is just to present a slightly alternate view to the chorus of "you are right, your boyfriend is clearly wrong" above (I'm not saying that chorus is wrong, just that it can look really strange if the rural view of animals is the only one you've ever known. Note however that the rural view of dogs also includes the owner's responsibility to keep it from harassing livestock and the understanding that it may be shot if it's chasing someone's livestock.)
Anyway, I agree that you both sound absolutely inflexible on the topic and probably shouldn't adopt a dog as a result.
posted by tiger tiger at 4:30 AM on October 25, 2018 [18 favorites]
All this is just to present a slightly alternate view to the chorus of "you are right, your boyfriend is clearly wrong" above (I'm not saying that chorus is wrong, just that it can look really strange if the rural view of animals is the only one you've ever known. Note however that the rural view of dogs also includes the owner's responsibility to keep it from harassing livestock and the understanding that it may be shot if it's chasing someone's livestock.)
Anyway, I agree that you both sound absolutely inflexible on the topic and probably shouldn't adopt a dog as a result.
posted by tiger tiger at 4:30 AM on October 25, 2018 [18 favorites]
Mostly I will echo everyone who's said that you just shouldn't get a dog with him and need to decide whether this is a deal-breaker (as does he). But if it's any comfort here, you're entirely right and he's entirely wrong. Domestic dogs don't enjoy being eaten by coyotes. Letting dogs roam is a commonplace thing that doesn't make you worse than Hitler and is commonly accepted in many parts of the US but is unambiguously bad.
The number of breeds where it would arguably be appropriate to leave the dog outside are somewhere between very few and zero, and basically nobody would want one a working-line livestock guardian as a pet because they make terrible and sometimes dangerous pets.
What's appropriate for a working farm dog isn't relevant because you can't have a working farm dog without a working farm, and the odds of you starting to raise sheep as a non-hobby are very very low.
Please do not compromise on a chained up dog or an invisible fence. Neither of those will do anything to protect an unsupervised dog from a coyote or person intent on harming it for the lulz. For invisible fences, there is always some stimulus that is strong enough to entice the dog to just get shocked and leave the area; the most you can say is that you don't know what that is yet for your dog.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 4:39 AM on October 25, 2018 [2 favorites]
The number of breeds where it would arguably be appropriate to leave the dog outside are somewhere between very few and zero, and basically nobody would want one a working-line livestock guardian as a pet because they make terrible and sometimes dangerous pets.
What's appropriate for a working farm dog isn't relevant because you can't have a working farm dog without a working farm, and the odds of you starting to raise sheep as a non-hobby are very very low.
Please do not compromise on a chained up dog or an invisible fence. Neither of those will do anything to protect an unsupervised dog from a coyote or person intent on harming it for the lulz. For invisible fences, there is always some stimulus that is strong enough to entice the dog to just get shocked and leave the area; the most you can say is that you don't know what that is yet for your dog.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 4:39 AM on October 25, 2018 [2 favorites]
How do I reason with this?
He's never had a bad experience doing things his way, so you really can't.
Both the person I was biking with and the people who answered the door when I told them their dog had died were very apathetic about the whole squished-puppy thing. I think some people may treat/think of dogs less as pets and more as closer to a sort of trained livestock.
posted by aniola at 5:28 AM on October 25, 2018 [4 favorites]
He's never had a bad experience doing things his way, so you really can't.
Both the person I was biking with and the people who answered the door when I told them their dog had died were very apathetic about the whole squished-puppy thing. I think some people may treat/think of dogs less as pets and more as closer to a sort of trained livestock.
posted by aniola at 5:28 AM on October 25, 2018 [4 favorites]
Lots of variables. I have two retrievers who are both 'people dogs'. They had the run of my parents' 200 acres of woods, streams and ponds for years and never had a serious issue. Drinking algae-infested pond water caused the most trouble we ever had.
It was several years of ownership before we would just let them roam, however. Both doggos and I had to develop a level of comfort and trust.
My labrador would go hike with me, and when she was done...she would just turn around and head back to the house, where I'd find her sleeping on the porch deck. My Golden would wander off with the first person he encountered - but would never leave the property.
We have horses who sometimes slip out of their pasture and wander around unsupervised. They'll never go far enough to lose sight of the ranch - but that's how domesticated horses tend to be. My dogs tend to not stray far from people or bodies of water - and that can be both good, and bad.
Any unsupervised time is a risk, there's no way getting around that.
posted by tgrundke at 5:40 AM on October 25, 2018 [1 favorite]
It was several years of ownership before we would just let them roam, however. Both doggos and I had to develop a level of comfort and trust.
My labrador would go hike with me, and when she was done...she would just turn around and head back to the house, where I'd find her sleeping on the porch deck. My Golden would wander off with the first person he encountered - but would never leave the property.
We have horses who sometimes slip out of their pasture and wander around unsupervised. They'll never go far enough to lose sight of the ranch - but that's how domesticated horses tend to be. My dogs tend to not stray far from people or bodies of water - and that can be both good, and bad.
Any unsupervised time is a risk, there's no way getting around that.
posted by tgrundke at 5:40 AM on October 25, 2018 [1 favorite]
When I was a child in the 60s, it was completely normal to let pets roam. Of my five childhood dogs, we lost three because they were roaming. One disappeared altogether, one was hit by a car, and one was shot, presumably by neighbors (don’t know if he was bothering chickens - he never bothered ours). If you aren’t ok with losing pets this way, letting animals roam is a very bad idea.
But your boyfriend knows these things can happen. In his cost/benefit analysis, the dog’s presumed increased happiness is worth the risk. I would say we don’t know how much happier a free-roaming dog is over one with an electric fence, but that probably won’t convince your boyfriend. I think you just can’t own a dog with him. If you had one, he let it loose, and it died horribly, you’d never forgive him. This issue may be a dealbreaker for you.
posted by FencingGal at 5:45 AM on October 25, 2018 [4 favorites]
But your boyfriend knows these things can happen. In his cost/benefit analysis, the dog’s presumed increased happiness is worth the risk. I would say we don’t know how much happier a free-roaming dog is over one with an electric fence, but that probably won’t convince your boyfriend. I think you just can’t own a dog with him. If you had one, he let it loose, and it died horribly, you’d never forgive him. This issue may be a dealbreaker for you.
posted by FencingGal at 5:45 AM on October 25, 2018 [4 favorites]
Kiya are also happier, of you let them just wander lose where ever they want. There are reasons we doing let then do this.
posted by wwax at 5:49 AM on October 25, 2018
posted by wwax at 5:49 AM on October 25, 2018
Now that I live in a crowded city and have had dogs for the last 20 years, I'm ashamed of how my rural family let our dogs roam free where they regularly ate neighbors' chickens and cats, got hit by cars and chased cyclists and pedestrians. I realize that was part of midwestern farm country culture then, but now even my parents admit that it was thoughtless. They still have dogs, and they've built nice fences around their property.
posted by M.C. Lo-Carb! at 5:55 AM on October 25, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by M.C. Lo-Carb! at 5:55 AM on October 25, 2018 [2 favorites]
My parents live in and I grew up in a rural area, and people who let their dogs run free are not nice people. I'm not trying to be a jerk, but I have extensive experience of loose dogs and crappy owners.
Other people live in rural areas and those people have property, families, livestock, and pets that your dog could come into contact with and cause a problem, for example one that my family lived several times: loose dogs chasing horses or other livestock, which is extremely dangerous to the livestock and frankly at best could result in the death of the dog, either by someone shooting it for chasing livestock, or by the livestock kicking it to death or trampling it. I've seen dogs maimed by horses for chasing. My dad has taken dogs back home multiple times when they were in our fields. My dad has also shot dogs that would not stop chasing livestock and whose owners would not take responsibility for the dogs. It's a shame, but until you've seen a large animal vet bill, chased down loose horses who ran through a fence, and then tried to catch the insane dog that wouldn't stop chasing them, you probably would not understand.
This is partially about viewing dogs not really the same way - valued family member versus just a pet -- but frankly it's also about being selfish and being a shirtty neighbor. Dogs should not be roaming free, shirtting in everyone's yards, chasing other people's animals, and possibly their kids. Dogs did not ask to be put in a situation where a scared human might shoot them, nor does a dog understand roads and cars, and they did not ask to be put in a situation where they have to figure those things out or die.
So dogs should be allowed to roam within a fence. Dogs can be left outside, alone, in a secure area, and as long as there is sufficient food and water, that is fine. But when your dog starts infringing on other people and animals, your dog is a problem, and so are you.
posted by Medieval Maven at 6:07 AM on October 25, 2018 [22 favorites]
Other people live in rural areas and those people have property, families, livestock, and pets that your dog could come into contact with and cause a problem, for example one that my family lived several times: loose dogs chasing horses or other livestock, which is extremely dangerous to the livestock and frankly at best could result in the death of the dog, either by someone shooting it for chasing livestock, or by the livestock kicking it to death or trampling it. I've seen dogs maimed by horses for chasing. My dad has taken dogs back home multiple times when they were in our fields. My dad has also shot dogs that would not stop chasing livestock and whose owners would not take responsibility for the dogs. It's a shame, but until you've seen a large animal vet bill, chased down loose horses who ran through a fence, and then tried to catch the insane dog that wouldn't stop chasing them, you probably would not understand.
This is partially about viewing dogs not really the same way - valued family member versus just a pet -- but frankly it's also about being selfish and being a shirtty neighbor. Dogs should not be roaming free, shirtting in everyone's yards, chasing other people's animals, and possibly their kids. Dogs did not ask to be put in a situation where a scared human might shoot them, nor does a dog understand roads and cars, and they did not ask to be put in a situation where they have to figure those things out or die.
So dogs should be allowed to roam within a fence. Dogs can be left outside, alone, in a secure area, and as long as there is sufficient food and water, that is fine. But when your dog starts infringing on other people and animals, your dog is a problem, and so are you.
posted by Medieval Maven at 6:07 AM on October 25, 2018 [22 favorites]
What Medieval Maven said. I grew up partly on a farm. We lost chickens, ducks, cats and even calves to free-running dogs. At the time, there was a culture that if you didn't want a cat or dog, rather than euthanise them you would set them "free" (drive them somewhere and leave them.) So you never knew if the dogs running around threatening your animals were owned by someone, or abandoned.
Sometimes this ended happily. We got our four barn cats-- a mother and three kittens-- because someone left them in a ditch by the roadside. A friend of mine adopted a friendly medium-sized dog that she found running around loose. But, sad to say, most endings were not happy.
I've known dogs that could be left off-leash, but for the most part they were older and more intelligent. They knew where their territory was and knew the other animals within it were not prey. And even then, you wouldn't leave them out overnight, or if you were going to be gone for long. Even with the best-controlled dog, you still can't control the actions of coyotes, raccoons, or any animal that might be rabid.
posted by Pallas Athena at 6:37 AM on October 25, 2018 [1 favorite]
Sometimes this ended happily. We got our four barn cats-- a mother and three kittens-- because someone left them in a ditch by the roadside. A friend of mine adopted a friendly medium-sized dog that she found running around loose. But, sad to say, most endings were not happy.
I've known dogs that could be left off-leash, but for the most part they were older and more intelligent. They knew where their territory was and knew the other animals within it were not prey. And even then, you wouldn't leave them out overnight, or if you were going to be gone for long. Even with the best-controlled dog, you still can't control the actions of coyotes, raccoons, or any animal that might be rabid.
posted by Pallas Athena at 6:37 AM on October 25, 2018 [1 favorite]
I strongly believe dogs should be kept indoors when not supervised, only allowed outside on a leash or contained within a fenced-in area.
It sounds like you might be saying dogs should never be off-leash except in a fenced area, even if supervised. In the rural area where I live, that would be an extreme and unusual opinion, even among people whose dogs are well-loved and well-trained house pets. Our dog is often off-leash on our property and goes on an off-leash walk every day (somewhere well away from roads and houses, where we're unlikely to encounter other people.) That's very typical around here. But when we visit relatives in New Jersey, he's never off-leash except at a dog park, because there is no place where it would be reasonable to walk him off-leash. People who live in highly populated areas like that sometimes forget (or don't realize) that there are other places where it really can be fine to let a dog be off-leash.
Neither of you is absolutely in the right. There is no objectively right side to this debate. Of course it's true that dogs are happier if allowed to roam as they wish. And of course it's true that it exposes them to more dangers. People are allowed to have different feelings about which of those things is more important. A lot of people settle on a middle ground where their dog gets supervised off-leash walks or time to romp in the yard with an owner nearby but spends much of its time shut inside the house.
You're probably never going to get him to come around to your side on the better-safe-than-sorry vs. let-it-be approach to dog safety. If neither of you is willing to compromise at all, that may be a deal breaker. What's more important to spend time talking about is how he would ensure that the dog didn't cause problems for other people. What kind of training has he done with his dogs in the past? Did they spend large amounts of time out of his sight and off his property? Does he know whether any of them were ever aggressive to people or dogs, damaged anyone's property or killed anyone's livestock or cats? If he got a dog where he lives now, how far would he expect it to roam? Would he try to encourage or teach it to stay on his own property? How? Does he know how the neighbors feel about free-roaming dogs? What would he do if the dog started causing problems for a neighbor? It may be that he hasn't really thought about any of that and doesn't care, and then you might decide you can't enable that kind of inconsideration for the neighbors. But be open to the possibility that what he wants to do with the dog might actually be okay where he lives. (Maybe all the neighbors have free-roaming dogs, too.)
posted by Redstart at 6:38 AM on October 25, 2018 [10 favorites]
It sounds like you might be saying dogs should never be off-leash except in a fenced area, even if supervised. In the rural area where I live, that would be an extreme and unusual opinion, even among people whose dogs are well-loved and well-trained house pets. Our dog is often off-leash on our property and goes on an off-leash walk every day (somewhere well away from roads and houses, where we're unlikely to encounter other people.) That's very typical around here. But when we visit relatives in New Jersey, he's never off-leash except at a dog park, because there is no place where it would be reasonable to walk him off-leash. People who live in highly populated areas like that sometimes forget (or don't realize) that there are other places where it really can be fine to let a dog be off-leash.
Neither of you is absolutely in the right. There is no objectively right side to this debate. Of course it's true that dogs are happier if allowed to roam as they wish. And of course it's true that it exposes them to more dangers. People are allowed to have different feelings about which of those things is more important. A lot of people settle on a middle ground where their dog gets supervised off-leash walks or time to romp in the yard with an owner nearby but spends much of its time shut inside the house.
You're probably never going to get him to come around to your side on the better-safe-than-sorry vs. let-it-be approach to dog safety. If neither of you is willing to compromise at all, that may be a deal breaker. What's more important to spend time talking about is how he would ensure that the dog didn't cause problems for other people. What kind of training has he done with his dogs in the past? Did they spend large amounts of time out of his sight and off his property? Does he know whether any of them were ever aggressive to people or dogs, damaged anyone's property or killed anyone's livestock or cats? If he got a dog where he lives now, how far would he expect it to roam? Would he try to encourage or teach it to stay on his own property? How? Does he know how the neighbors feel about free-roaming dogs? What would he do if the dog started causing problems for a neighbor? It may be that he hasn't really thought about any of that and doesn't care, and then you might decide you can't enable that kind of inconsideration for the neighbors. But be open to the possibility that what he wants to do with the dog might actually be okay where he lives. (Maybe all the neighbors have free-roaming dogs, too.)
posted by Redstart at 6:38 AM on October 25, 2018 [10 favorites]
There are some country roads (good hills, low traffic is great) that I can't run along because of aggressive unleashed rural dogs. As bad as a territorial dog is a pair is about 4 times worse.
If the property is fenced (horse/cow/sheep pasture) then it's great. If not, the only way it's "OK" is that in rural areas because of the lower statistical chance of other people is lower. So it's less likely to be a problem for other people, but it's still going to be a problem for some.
posted by nobeagle at 6:56 AM on October 25, 2018
If the property is fenced (horse/cow/sheep pasture) then it's great. If not, the only way it's "OK" is that in rural areas because of the lower statistical chance of other people is lower. So it's less likely to be a problem for other people, but it's still going to be a problem for some.
posted by nobeagle at 6:56 AM on October 25, 2018
I live in a rural area. Dogs are generally free roaming on their own property There seems to be an assumption on this thread that “free-roaming” means leaving their property, which is not my experience (cats are another story - I would never let a cat outside because I have never known one to respect property lines). My dog is much happier outside (and she is a shih tzu, not a working dog) but “free-roaming outside” to her means lying on the deck in the shade of the maple tree for hours with a bowl of water beside her. However, if you are uncomfortable with that, it is fair to not get a dog together, not because one of you is “wrong”, but because you do not have shared values on this specific issue.
posted by saucysault at 7:00 AM on October 25, 2018 [7 favorites]
posted by saucysault at 7:00 AM on October 25, 2018 [7 favorites]
Your position is extremist. You acknowledge the possibility that "some dogs can be trusted to stay nearby and will consistently respond to voice commands," but you believe that to be vanishingly rare. In my experience, it is not rare in dogs past puppyhood. (You may think it's rare because you live in an area where dogs are normally kept confined so they go wild when they're not, and unfortunately lots of suburbanites don't adequately exercise their dogs so that's even more likely to happen.)
I keep my dog in a fenced yard at my home in the suburbs. However, everyone in my extended family has always let their dogs loose at our cabin in the Adirondacks (as do all the neighbors). That's been upward of 25 dogs in my lifetime and all of them have stayed on the property. You kinda test it out by hanging out with them outside at first so you can monitor them and make sure they stick around. I don't doubt that there are a lot of dogs that could NOT handle this, and when I was up with someone last summer whose dog had a greater-than-average penchant for roaming, I insisted that the dog be confined just in case.
If your only acceptable answer is that dogs always be confined, or if his only acceptable answer is that dogs be allowed loose even if they haven't proved themselves to behave reasonably, then definitely don't get a dog with this guy. But you might be able to both come around, with him admitting that a dog needs to be monitored until its behavior is well known and you admitting that it would be overkill to tie up a dog who would stay on the property even if you didn't.
posted by metasarah at 7:31 AM on October 25, 2018 [13 favorites]
I keep my dog in a fenced yard at my home in the suburbs. However, everyone in my extended family has always let their dogs loose at our cabin in the Adirondacks (as do all the neighbors). That's been upward of 25 dogs in my lifetime and all of them have stayed on the property. You kinda test it out by hanging out with them outside at first so you can monitor them and make sure they stick around. I don't doubt that there are a lot of dogs that could NOT handle this, and when I was up with someone last summer whose dog had a greater-than-average penchant for roaming, I insisted that the dog be confined just in case.
If your only acceptable answer is that dogs always be confined, or if his only acceptable answer is that dogs be allowed loose even if they haven't proved themselves to behave reasonably, then definitely don't get a dog with this guy. But you might be able to both come around, with him admitting that a dog needs to be monitored until its behavior is well known and you admitting that it would be overkill to tie up a dog who would stay on the property even if you didn't.
posted by metasarah at 7:31 AM on October 25, 2018 [13 favorites]
I have a dog and live in a semi-rural area with limited traffic. I let my dog roam at night. He does not eat trash, as another loose dog in the neighborhood does. He ignores cyclists and humans but wants to meet all other dogs. He is happier because he can investigate things, he can run enough to be a good dog inside (a tired dog is a good dog). He is good with voice and whistled commands. In order to reduce being a jerk, I have checked with neighbors about his behaviors. He's also loose when I'm outside with him in the daytime, and he stays close. I did not allow him loose until he was extremely reliable about coming when called and staying out of the road. Kids in the area know he likes to retrieve a tennis ball; this is one reason he can only roam at night - he is obsessive about the tennis ball, and could snatch it from a child's hand, not acceptable dog manners.
I think you are unrealistic about how well dogs can be trained. Dogs have evolved alongside humans and have been bred to be trainable. Dogs can't safely be loose in places with much traffic. Puppy and adolescent dogs have a harder time resisting things like garbage and other dogs' shit, but as they settle into adulthood, they follow their training. Also, young dogs need tons of exercise, many do not get it and are treated as bad dogs, or said to have separation anxiety. Many behavior issues with dogs are best resolved with exercise, and then more exercise.
Your bf is unrealistic about the dangers to the dog, and the dangers to people and farm animals. Just because his dog never got shot for going after chickens doesn't mean that won't happen, and your neighbors have a right to have safe chickens. Dogs get hit by cars and usually die, if not, the dog will need very expensive care. Coyotes definitely go after dogs and cats. Dogs definitely harass walkers and cyclists. My dog came from the US South, where the shelters are full of lovely dogs, because there seems to be a sense that dogs are a commodity (Not All Southerners) so maybe it's cultural.
If you can get bf to compromise on when, where and how any pet can roam, and agree to lots of training, and if you can bend at all on the dog being allowed to roam in specific circumstances, maybe. Dog training is 90% Dog Owner training, so it can't just be you going to classes. Having a reasonably trained dog is great. Having a well-trained dog is a joy. Being able to negotiate and resolve problems is critical to a relationship.
posted by Mom at 8:03 AM on October 25, 2018 [5 favorites]
I think you are unrealistic about how well dogs can be trained. Dogs have evolved alongside humans and have been bred to be trainable. Dogs can't safely be loose in places with much traffic. Puppy and adolescent dogs have a harder time resisting things like garbage and other dogs' shit, but as they settle into adulthood, they follow their training. Also, young dogs need tons of exercise, many do not get it and are treated as bad dogs, or said to have separation anxiety. Many behavior issues with dogs are best resolved with exercise, and then more exercise.
Your bf is unrealistic about the dangers to the dog, and the dangers to people and farm animals. Just because his dog never got shot for going after chickens doesn't mean that won't happen, and your neighbors have a right to have safe chickens. Dogs get hit by cars and usually die, if not, the dog will need very expensive care. Coyotes definitely go after dogs and cats. Dogs definitely harass walkers and cyclists. My dog came from the US South, where the shelters are full of lovely dogs, because there seems to be a sense that dogs are a commodity (Not All Southerners) so maybe it's cultural.
If you can get bf to compromise on when, where and how any pet can roam, and agree to lots of training, and if you can bend at all on the dog being allowed to roam in specific circumstances, maybe. Dog training is 90% Dog Owner training, so it can't just be you going to classes. Having a reasonably trained dog is great. Having a well-trained dog is a joy. Being able to negotiate and resolve problems is critical to a relationship.
posted by Mom at 8:03 AM on October 25, 2018 [5 favorites]
In addition to making sure you understand what "roaming free" means to your boyfriend in practice, you should reality-check your own vision of dog ownership. How are you picturing exercising a dog? Half-hour walks on leash morning and evening? That would be completely inadequate for a lot of dogs. Fencing in a yard area where the dog can run around? A lot of dogs won't just run around and exercise themselves in a fenced area. If you want to keep the dog as safe as possible while also making sure it gets enough exercise, you'd better either be prepared to put a significant amount of time and energy into it or get a very small or very low energy dog. If you want your boyfriend to be okay with keeping the dog confined, he might need to hear a realistic plan for how the dog will be kept happy and exercised. So make sure you actually have one.
posted by Redstart at 8:42 AM on October 25, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by Redstart at 8:42 AM on October 25, 2018 [4 favorites]
If you're saying that I should never let my two dogs off leash then I think you're wrong. If your boyfriend is saying I should never put them on a leash or shut the garden gate then he's wrong.
Basically I don't think people should have dogs unless they can put in the effort to train them so that they can have some freedom (and certainly both dogs and owners would be missing out on a lot of pleasure), and they shouldn't have dogs if they can't be arsed to protect them from likely dangers that they, being dogs, don't know about.
Check that you both literally mean what you've said i.e. never off leash/never confined anywhere. They seem such extreme views. But, I suspect, like others have said, that it's not all about the dog.
posted by sianifach at 9:06 AM on October 25, 2018 [3 favorites]
Basically I don't think people should have dogs unless they can put in the effort to train them so that they can have some freedom (and certainly both dogs and owners would be missing out on a lot of pleasure), and they shouldn't have dogs if they can't be arsed to protect them from likely dangers that they, being dogs, don't know about.
Check that you both literally mean what you've said i.e. never off leash/never confined anywhere. They seem such extreme views. But, I suspect, like others have said, that it's not all about the dog.
posted by sianifach at 9:06 AM on October 25, 2018 [3 favorites]
Other people live in rural areas and those people have property, families, livestock, and pets that your dog could come into contact with and cause a problem
Seconding this. I'm currently building a house on several acres in a rural area, and one neighbor "adopts" stray dogs and lets them roam free. There are currently only 6, but there have been as many as 10-12. One day, my excavator left me a voicemail saying, "I'm in my truck on your property, and I'm surrounded by a bunch of wild dogs. I'm just calling to let you know I'm fixin to fire one warning shot out the window, then I might have to shoot one of 'em. If it's me or him, I'm gonna do what I gotta do. I've been dog bit, and I ain't goin' out like that."
posted by bradf at 9:20 AM on October 25, 2018 [6 favorites]
Seconding this. I'm currently building a house on several acres in a rural area, and one neighbor "adopts" stray dogs and lets them roam free. There are currently only 6, but there have been as many as 10-12. One day, my excavator left me a voicemail saying, "I'm in my truck on your property, and I'm surrounded by a bunch of wild dogs. I'm just calling to let you know I'm fixin to fire one warning shot out the window, then I might have to shoot one of 'em. If it's me or him, I'm gonna do what I gotta do. I've been dog bit, and I ain't goin' out like that."
posted by bradf at 9:20 AM on October 25, 2018 [6 favorites]
Your boyfriend has decided that what is "best" for the dog is what is easiest (and laziest) for him (the boyfriend), and will not allow any discussion. This will extend to many areas of your life. Dump him.
posted by 2soxy4mypuppet at 9:46 AM on October 25, 2018 [7 favorites]
posted by 2soxy4mypuppet at 9:46 AM on October 25, 2018 [7 favorites]
> How do I reason with this?
It doesn't sound like you should try to reason with him on the actual issue. He has his own viewpoint and experience and it doesn't match yours. I think you have to tell him that regardless of what he believes, you aren't comfortable having your dogs roam free without any sort of a fence and you don't appreciate that he is pushing this on you.
posted by AppleTurnover at 10:03 AM on October 25, 2018 [1 favorite]
It doesn't sound like you should try to reason with him on the actual issue. He has his own viewpoint and experience and it doesn't match yours. I think you have to tell him that regardless of what he believes, you aren't comfortable having your dogs roam free without any sort of a fence and you don't appreciate that he is pushing this on you.
posted by AppleTurnover at 10:03 AM on October 25, 2018 [1 favorite]
You have two cards, one says "Yes" and one says "No". Place one card on each statement:
- I love my dogs and/or respect my neighbors' rights to not be affected by my choices.
- I let my dogs roam free.
(Exercise does not address human relationship problems and +1 it depends on the dog and the surroundings)
posted by achrise at 10:50 AM on October 25, 2018
- I love my dogs and/or respect my neighbors' rights to not be affected by my choices.
- I let my dogs roam free.
(Exercise does not address human relationship problems and +1 it depends on the dog and the surroundings)
posted by achrise at 10:50 AM on October 25, 2018
For a different perspective let's try a different culture.
Mérida, Mexico is a modern city with about 1 million people and plenty of fast moving traffic. A good number of dogs are allowed to run free here. They will cross the street to avoid you and generally you see them trotting purposefully somewhere or laying in groups on a sunny spot of concrete. Guard dogs, which live behind fences, will bark their heads off at you. The free runners will pretend not to notice you.
I'm sure they get hit by cars, but after six months of extensive walking I've only see one such.
Every yard is gated here so I'm sure what henhouses there are remain safe. Also no one owns a gun, so an animal that is out of line is more likely to get the garden hose.
Essentially they are treated a lot like cats. Some people let them roam free, some don't. If they run free, occasionally one disappears or dies.
In any case, there's a different perspective for you.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 12:01 PM on October 25, 2018
Mérida, Mexico is a modern city with about 1 million people and plenty of fast moving traffic. A good number of dogs are allowed to run free here. They will cross the street to avoid you and generally you see them trotting purposefully somewhere or laying in groups on a sunny spot of concrete. Guard dogs, which live behind fences, will bark their heads off at you. The free runners will pretend not to notice you.
I'm sure they get hit by cars, but after six months of extensive walking I've only see one such.
Every yard is gated here so I'm sure what henhouses there are remain safe. Also no one owns a gun, so an animal that is out of line is more likely to get the garden hose.
Essentially they are treated a lot like cats. Some people let them roam free, some don't. If they run free, occasionally one disappears or dies.
In any case, there's a different perspective for you.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 12:01 PM on October 25, 2018
Depends on dog and area. My dog would be fine unsupervised because he doesn't really get into things, and comes when called. If we have the driveway blocked off (we sometimes graze the sheep outside of the pasture) then I am more likely to let the dog run free because there is no chance a car will come to the house.
This all said, I rarely allow the dog to run free for more than say 15 mins or so because of my own anxiety, not because I don't trust the dog.
posted by terrapin at 1:08 PM on October 25, 2018 [1 favorite]
This all said, I rarely allow the dog to run free for more than say 15 mins or so because of my own anxiety, not because I don't trust the dog.
posted by terrapin at 1:08 PM on October 25, 2018 [1 favorite]
I am an urban-dwelling dog person. For several years, however, I lived in a house on several wooded acres, towards the end of a dirt road, surrounded by national forest. My dogs stayed outside during the day without any constraints. So did the neighbors' dogs. They didn't generally mix it up though sometimes one of my dogs would chase my car when I left. I also got these dogs all as adults; one, in fact, became my dog when she wandered up to my house and we never found if she had an actual owner who missed her (there were a lot of abandoned and stray dogs there, so probably not).
I also used to ride my bike in this area and hated the country dogs that would chase me. And one time our neighbors complained that our old hound dog was braying loudly outside their house early in the morning, so we kept him in until later. Their dog would regularly visit us.
However, if I were to go visit that place now, with my urban dog, I wouldn't leave him alone outside without supervision. My dogs had each other and several acres.
I don't think you're wrong. I also don't think you're going to be able to change his mind.
But, my bigger question: it sounds like you don't live together. Is this going to be a dog you get together but you live somewhere else? Is the dog going to live mostly with him? In that case, I don't think you can make him follow your rules. But in that case I also wouldn't get a dog together.
Can you compromise on an invisible fence?
posted by bluedaisy at 2:55 PM on October 25, 2018 [1 favorite]
I also used to ride my bike in this area and hated the country dogs that would chase me. And one time our neighbors complained that our old hound dog was braying loudly outside their house early in the morning, so we kept him in until later. Their dog would regularly visit us.
However, if I were to go visit that place now, with my urban dog, I wouldn't leave him alone outside without supervision. My dogs had each other and several acres.
I don't think you're wrong. I also don't think you're going to be able to change his mind.
But, my bigger question: it sounds like you don't live together. Is this going to be a dog you get together but you live somewhere else? Is the dog going to live mostly with him? In that case, I don't think you can make him follow your rules. But in that case I also wouldn't get a dog together.
Can you compromise on an invisible fence?
posted by bluedaisy at 2:55 PM on October 25, 2018 [1 favorite]
TBH, I think this is a relationship problem, not a dog-problem. It's hard for me to get why the two of you are so stubborn about this, since dogs are different, and what might be good with one dog would be terrible with another. When I was young, we had two German Shepherds. One never moved from my side, literally, and it was a problem when I went off to college. The other roamed and was a nuisance, even though he never chased domestic or wild animals.
My dog now is more like the first, but he does go off once in a while when there is some sort of temptation.
Right now for reasons, I have three homes. I have an apartment in the city, a house with a tiny garden at my new temporary job, and our family farm.
In the city, I regularly drive to dog parks so my dog can run free and play with other dogs. I feel it improves his quality of life to be able to run about. He is never, ever off leash outside those areas in the city. Of the three places he knows, he is least happy in the city.
At my new job, he is mostly on-leash. When we moved there, he could spend time off-leash in the garden, but then he figured out how to escape. He only escaped to find me (while I was at work), and he never harmed anything while doing so, but he could get run over by a car. So until I've secured the yard, he is on leash all the time always. He is very content with our life there, because the house is on campus, so I can take him for good walks three times a day. It doesn't seem to matter much to him that he is on leash when we walk.
At our farm, he never even wears his collar. He has an uncanny knowledge of the exact boundaries of our land, so when we go for a walk, he never strays beyond the line. He never strays anywhere, but he has once been tempted to chase a deer when we were out for a walk, after which he was on leash in the bush for a long while. But he was still unrestricted when at home and there are no fences. He is a sheepdog, not a hunter.
Once, a lady screamed at me for letting him run loose, I pointed out that she was trespassing on my land, my dog wasn't. He didn't harm that lady or anyone else, ever. My neighbors have the same approach and the same type of dogs.
posted by mumimor at 3:25 PM on October 25, 2018 [4 favorites]
My dog now is more like the first, but he does go off once in a while when there is some sort of temptation.
Right now for reasons, I have three homes. I have an apartment in the city, a house with a tiny garden at my new temporary job, and our family farm.
In the city, I regularly drive to dog parks so my dog can run free and play with other dogs. I feel it improves his quality of life to be able to run about. He is never, ever off leash outside those areas in the city. Of the three places he knows, he is least happy in the city.
At my new job, he is mostly on-leash. When we moved there, he could spend time off-leash in the garden, but then he figured out how to escape. He only escaped to find me (while I was at work), and he never harmed anything while doing so, but he could get run over by a car. So until I've secured the yard, he is on leash all the time always. He is very content with our life there, because the house is on campus, so I can take him for good walks three times a day. It doesn't seem to matter much to him that he is on leash when we walk.
At our farm, he never even wears his collar. He has an uncanny knowledge of the exact boundaries of our land, so when we go for a walk, he never strays beyond the line. He never strays anywhere, but he has once been tempted to chase a deer when we were out for a walk, after which he was on leash in the bush for a long while. But he was still unrestricted when at home and there are no fences. He is a sheepdog, not a hunter.
Once, a lady screamed at me for letting him run loose, I pointed out that she was trespassing on my land, my dog wasn't. He didn't harm that lady or anyone else, ever. My neighbors have the same approach and the same type of dogs.
posted by mumimor at 3:25 PM on October 25, 2018 [4 favorites]
For a different perspective let's try a different culture.
I had a roommate in Nicaragua who was like, "my dog took himself for a walk to the park [like he usually did] and never came home!"
posted by aniola at 3:29 PM on October 25, 2018
I had a roommate in Nicaragua who was like, "my dog took himself for a walk to the park [like he usually did] and never came home!"
posted by aniola at 3:29 PM on October 25, 2018
My first dog as a child was a free-range dog. She was the most amazing beagle you'd ever meet. She walked me to school, came back to school when it was recess and was allowed on the playground and would walk me home again after the day was done. She navigated our small town with an awareness that other dogs never displayed. She would look before crossing the street. She knew which people were nice and which were mean and only took food from the nice people.
Hell, she even had some business owners downtown trained to let her in if my parents or I had come in earlier without her. I saw the owner of the hardware store apologize to her for not holding the door open to her once.
When she was 2, someone took her. Someone in town thought that as a beagle, she'd make a good hunting dog. They were sorely disappointed and brought her back a week later. After that, she was much more cautious around men in beards but wandered all the same.
One day, when she was 6, in a hurry to catch up with me on the other side of the street, she only looked one way and sauntered out into the street. A white Cadillac hit her and never stopped. She died in my arms.
I've had three dogs since then. Every one of them has been an indoor dog with walks and fenced backyards. They all seemed delightfully happy, as happy as Bonnie ever was. The first two lived to be 12 and 10 respectively. Our new pup gets to run in the woods with her GPS collar, but only when we are out with her. She goes to the dog park, gets multiple daily walks, and chills outside in the fenced backyard. I plan on getting at least 10 years out of this pup, maybe more.
If you asked me to give up a dog that walked me to school and wandered the neighborhood so charmingly for the option to have had that dog for 6 more years, I'd say yes in a minute. Dogs already have a shorter lifespan than we like, why shorten it more by leaving them outside?
posted by teleri025 at 3:30 PM on October 25, 2018 [6 favorites]
Hell, she even had some business owners downtown trained to let her in if my parents or I had come in earlier without her. I saw the owner of the hardware store apologize to her for not holding the door open to her once.
When she was 2, someone took her. Someone in town thought that as a beagle, she'd make a good hunting dog. They were sorely disappointed and brought her back a week later. After that, she was much more cautious around men in beards but wandered all the same.
One day, when she was 6, in a hurry to catch up with me on the other side of the street, she only looked one way and sauntered out into the street. A white Cadillac hit her and never stopped. She died in my arms.
I've had three dogs since then. Every one of them has been an indoor dog with walks and fenced backyards. They all seemed delightfully happy, as happy as Bonnie ever was. The first two lived to be 12 and 10 respectively. Our new pup gets to run in the woods with her GPS collar, but only when we are out with her. She goes to the dog park, gets multiple daily walks, and chills outside in the fenced backyard. I plan on getting at least 10 years out of this pup, maybe more.
If you asked me to give up a dog that walked me to school and wandered the neighborhood so charmingly for the option to have had that dog for 6 more years, I'd say yes in a minute. Dogs already have a shorter lifespan than we like, why shorten it more by leaving them outside?
posted by teleri025 at 3:30 PM on October 25, 2018 [6 favorites]
I've heard that some dogs can be trusted to stay nearby and will consisently respond to voice commands, but this seems to be the exception and not the norm.
For food motivated animals who are of a mature age (over four) we have no problem letting our dog (and our previous dog) run barking insanely into the woods for five minutes each night and in the morning to go pee and then blast back into our house to get a chicken nugget. It took a lot of work and repetition to get to that point. Things like bacon, or other high motivation foods, really help...if you'd just like to spare yourself a leashed walk first thing in the morning, in the country.
As far as dogs just 'hanging out outside' we have three such dogs in our general area. They have all been sweet, dorky labs. One of them was good about not pooping on our walkways. The others...less conscientious. Their owners all seem to have given up on their habits--like one guy tried GPS systems, shock collars (thankfully discontinued). I don't know. Maybe he didn't know how to train a dog? Anyway, we do have dogs roaming around like visiting dignitaries.
So: we like that sort of thing; random dogs showing up. Not everybody feels that way, and I would not allow 'just hanging out outside' for our dog for the reasons you list. Up until this year, when she went out it was either off leash and in the woods with us, or on a leash. We are in a rural area but there are cars and hunters and coyotes and all of the reasons you mention but most importantly I could never relax in this lifestyle and it sounds like you can't either but the main thing is:
It's kind of shitty when you tell someone 'I can never be relaxed while we live this way' and that person is kind of like, *shrugs*.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 4:15 PM on October 25, 2018 [1 favorite]
For food motivated animals who are of a mature age (over four) we have no problem letting our dog (and our previous dog) run barking insanely into the woods for five minutes each night and in the morning to go pee and then blast back into our house to get a chicken nugget. It took a lot of work and repetition to get to that point. Things like bacon, or other high motivation foods, really help...if you'd just like to spare yourself a leashed walk first thing in the morning, in the country.
As far as dogs just 'hanging out outside' we have three such dogs in our general area. They have all been sweet, dorky labs. One of them was good about not pooping on our walkways. The others...less conscientious. Their owners all seem to have given up on their habits--like one guy tried GPS systems, shock collars (thankfully discontinued). I don't know. Maybe he didn't know how to train a dog? Anyway, we do have dogs roaming around like visiting dignitaries.
So: we like that sort of thing; random dogs showing up. Not everybody feels that way, and I would not allow 'just hanging out outside' for our dog for the reasons you list. Up until this year, when she went out it was either off leash and in the woods with us, or on a leash. We are in a rural area but there are cars and hunters and coyotes and all of the reasons you mention but most importantly I could never relax in this lifestyle and it sounds like you can't either but the main thing is:
It's kind of shitty when you tell someone 'I can never be relaxed while we live this way' and that person is kind of like, *shrugs*.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 4:15 PM on October 25, 2018 [1 favorite]
I grew up on a small bit-of-everything farm in a predominantly dairy farming area. Plenty of people let their dogs roam free at night. Often these dogs would get together in packs and seek out some jolly dog-fun. Unfortunately, this involved chasing and tormenting other people's livestock.
I've seen pregnant ewes slowly dying because dog packs chased them till they were exhausted, bit them a few times and then got bored and left them to die slowly. Once we lost eleven sheep at once, more than half of our flock. The dogs in question, anecdotally, all belonged either to people living in the nearby town, or to dairy farmers whose livestock were too big to be chased by dogs, so they didn't give a shit.
Those people were bad dog owners and they cost us a lot of grief and money. I am sure it varies from place to place but I am firmly of the belief that there should be at least some confinement of a dog at night to protect dog, livestock and wildlife.
posted by andraste at 6:44 PM on October 25, 2018 [3 favorites]
I've seen pregnant ewes slowly dying because dog packs chased them till they were exhausted, bit them a few times and then got bored and left them to die slowly. Once we lost eleven sheep at once, more than half of our flock. The dogs in question, anecdotally, all belonged either to people living in the nearby town, or to dairy farmers whose livestock were too big to be chased by dogs, so they didn't give a shit.
Those people were bad dog owners and they cost us a lot of grief and money. I am sure it varies from place to place but I am firmly of the belief that there should be at least some confinement of a dog at night to protect dog, livestock and wildlife.
posted by andraste at 6:44 PM on October 25, 2018 [3 favorites]
My territorial aunt shot and killed her neighbor's dog after it repeatedly strayed on her property. She suffered no consequences.
posted by citygirl at 6:57 PM on October 25, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by citygirl at 6:57 PM on October 25, 2018 [1 favorite]
The posts that include a reference to chickens reminded me of something that happened to some of my relatives. The had a big Boxer named Boots, AKC name Countess Kilbeggan. She got loose one day and murdered several chickens. After that she was always known as Countess KillChicken. Not really funny, but I am still smiling about the owners' reaction.
posted by Cranberry at 1:21 AM on October 26, 2018
posted by Cranberry at 1:21 AM on October 26, 2018
I grew up in a rural area and sure, there are lots of people who let their dogs run free. There are also people who are so sick of other people's dogs that they shoot any dog that gets on their property. Some of them use BB guns.
posted by heatvision at 3:14 AM on October 26, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by heatvision at 3:14 AM on October 26, 2018 [1 favorite]
Best answer: How do I reason with this?
I think you need to approach it as the two of you understanding where the other is coming from and assuming that the other has good reasons for thinking as they do. Let me give you my experience.
My parents (who are extremely risk-averse) have lived in houses with adjoining fields in a couple of rural areas of the UK. They have had, at different times, five rescue dogs who roamed free and unsupervised - except at night or when there was no one at home, when they were in kennels or the house.
The dogs stayed within the boundaries of the property, usually close to the house. Some of them in their younger years needed more careful supervision if there was livestock nearby and 'checking on the dogs' would be a regular task. If the local chinless wonders called to say the hunt was on, the dogs would also be kept inside, but that was about thrice a year, luckily.
The dogs never once harmed a person or animal (they would chase and kill wild rabbits, but only on walks), damaged property or ate trash. They were never attacked by another dog, injured, kidnapped, hit by a vehicle or caught in a trap. Some of these simply aren't risks where they lived, others didn't happen because they were trained to behave themselves.
Three lived out their natural lives, the other two are still with us. Most of the 'neighbours' i.e. people who lived within a 3 mile radius treated their dogs the same way. You'd occasionally hear about someone who had to keep a dog indoors or on a long chain because it couldn't be trusted. That was the exception, though.
So you might think I find your attitude incomprehensible. In fact I'm probably closer to yours than I am to his. For dogs to roam they require good training, a suitable property, lots of initial supervision etc. All that was assumed where I grew up, but it's clear from the thread that it's very far from universal.
posted by Busy Old Fool at 4:26 AM on October 26, 2018 [3 favorites]
I think you need to approach it as the two of you understanding where the other is coming from and assuming that the other has good reasons for thinking as they do. Let me give you my experience.
My parents (who are extremely risk-averse) have lived in houses with adjoining fields in a couple of rural areas of the UK. They have had, at different times, five rescue dogs who roamed free and unsupervised - except at night or when there was no one at home, when they were in kennels or the house.
The dogs stayed within the boundaries of the property, usually close to the house. Some of them in their younger years needed more careful supervision if there was livestock nearby and 'checking on the dogs' would be a regular task. If the local chinless wonders called to say the hunt was on, the dogs would also be kept inside, but that was about thrice a year, luckily.
The dogs never once harmed a person or animal (they would chase and kill wild rabbits, but only on walks), damaged property or ate trash. They were never attacked by another dog, injured, kidnapped, hit by a vehicle or caught in a trap. Some of these simply aren't risks where they lived, others didn't happen because they were trained to behave themselves.
Three lived out their natural lives, the other two are still with us. Most of the 'neighbours' i.e. people who lived within a 3 mile radius treated their dogs the same way. You'd occasionally hear about someone who had to keep a dog indoors or on a long chain because it couldn't be trusted. That was the exception, though.
So you might think I find your attitude incomprehensible. In fact I'm probably closer to yours than I am to his. For dogs to roam they require good training, a suitable property, lots of initial supervision etc. All that was assumed where I grew up, but it's clear from the thread that it's very far from universal.
posted by Busy Old Fool at 4:26 AM on October 26, 2018 [3 favorites]
It really depends a lot on where your property is and what kind of time commitment you can make as pet owners. If you're anywhere near a road, the dog will run after cars without some major training/intervention to prevent that habit, and it will only be a matter of time until it gets hit.
As a data-point, my mother-in-law lives on a very rural property in northern Alberta well away from the road and has 5 Border Collies and 2 Pyrenees. The Border Collies stay in crates near the house when they aren't working or on a walk. The Pyrenees run free, but not for their "freedom" - because they have a job to do - guarding livestock from wildlife - and they need to be free to do that job. There is of course, a risk that they will encounter wildlife that kills them.
I live in an inner-city suburb and my dog (a Ridgeback/Staffy cross who's a rescue) never roams unleashed, and sleeps next to me in the bed at night. If we let her roam, she'd likely get hit by a car, or get the city animal control cops on her because she'd get into people's garbage. Her job is to cuddle and play and do tricks and make us happy. She's a pet. She wasn't born to that role (she was a stray on a reserve), but we established a routine and limits that tell her what her role is and how she can fulfill it.
So, I guess what I'd say it comes down to is: what is your dog's job? If it's to be a pet, establish a routine, a sense of order and appropriate restrictions that are consistent with that job, the environment you have for it and your dog will be happy (especially if the breed is right for your space). If the dog's job is something else - herding, guarding, etc - it will have a different set of restrictions but will be happy as well. My primary observation with dogs is that they like having a job to do and if they don't have space to explore, their minds need to be occupied.
posted by Kurichina at 7:32 AM on October 26, 2018 [1 favorite]
As a data-point, my mother-in-law lives on a very rural property in northern Alberta well away from the road and has 5 Border Collies and 2 Pyrenees. The Border Collies stay in crates near the house when they aren't working or on a walk. The Pyrenees run free, but not for their "freedom" - because they have a job to do - guarding livestock from wildlife - and they need to be free to do that job. There is of course, a risk that they will encounter wildlife that kills them.
I live in an inner-city suburb and my dog (a Ridgeback/Staffy cross who's a rescue) never roams unleashed, and sleeps next to me in the bed at night. If we let her roam, she'd likely get hit by a car, or get the city animal control cops on her because she'd get into people's garbage. Her job is to cuddle and play and do tricks and make us happy. She's a pet. She wasn't born to that role (she was a stray on a reserve), but we established a routine and limits that tell her what her role is and how she can fulfill it.
So, I guess what I'd say it comes down to is: what is your dog's job? If it's to be a pet, establish a routine, a sense of order and appropriate restrictions that are consistent with that job, the environment you have for it and your dog will be happy (especially if the breed is right for your space). If the dog's job is something else - herding, guarding, etc - it will have a different set of restrictions but will be happy as well. My primary observation with dogs is that they like having a job to do and if they don't have space to explore, their minds need to be occupied.
posted by Kurichina at 7:32 AM on October 26, 2018 [1 favorite]
I have a relationshippy thing to offer...we do a thing in our house called 'who cares more?' and the person who cares the most gets their way. This sounds like it might be such a fraught topic on both sides it might not be useful but I thought I'd offer it as an argument-ending method.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 3:54 PM on October 26, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by A Terrible Llama at 3:54 PM on October 26, 2018 [2 favorites]
I grew up in a very rural area in the northern Midwest. We had dogs growing up and my parents were of the opinion “depends on the dog”. Every one of our free roaming dogs had something terrible happen to them. The dogs my parents didn’t trust? They lived to old age.
Bear traps, bears, multiple porcupine exposures (bonus trama: my dad would pull the quills out with pliers while my mother and us older kids sat on the dog to keep her held down), skunk attacks, car accidents, neighbors dogs, neighbors with guns, illegal hunters on our land, dog theives (wtf), and I’m sure things I don’t even remember are all just things we took for granted as just part of the risk of having dogs in the North Woods. Now, I look back and think, why didn’t we just keep all the dogs by the house? It would have been a very small limitation on their freedom- but I don’t think all the pain, early deaths and injuries were really worth it to them.
(I live in the city now with Griphus and we have a dog. She is never without a leash and she is perfectly happy- and also has never bit a pourcupine or has been sprayed by a skunk) .
posted by Blisterlips at 3:13 PM on October 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
Bear traps, bears, multiple porcupine exposures (bonus trama: my dad would pull the quills out with pliers while my mother and us older kids sat on the dog to keep her held down), skunk attacks, car accidents, neighbors dogs, neighbors with guns, illegal hunters on our land, dog theives (wtf), and I’m sure things I don’t even remember are all just things we took for granted as just part of the risk of having dogs in the North Woods. Now, I look back and think, why didn’t we just keep all the dogs by the house? It would have been a very small limitation on their freedom- but I don’t think all the pain, early deaths and injuries were really worth it to them.
(I live in the city now with Griphus and we have a dog. She is never without a leash and she is perfectly happy- and also has never bit a pourcupine or has been sprayed by a skunk) .
posted by Blisterlips at 3:13 PM on October 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
He simply does not value a dogs life as much as you do. If the dogs gets hit by a car, gets injured or lost, or winds up suffering, it simply does not matter as much to him, therefore it doesn’t concern him as much.
Vet checks, pain management, the general health of the dog, etc. just won’t be that important to him. Dogs will be disposable to him.
posted by MountainDaisy at 2:31 PM on October 28, 2018
Vet checks, pain management, the general health of the dog, etc. just won’t be that important to him. Dogs will be disposable to him.
posted by MountainDaisy at 2:31 PM on October 28, 2018
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by so fucking future at 9:05 PM on October 24, 2018 [16 favorites]