Amazon page said new, it's refurbished. Is my laptop still a good deal?
July 30, 2018 6:42 AM Subscribe
I found a deceptively great deal on a new Lenovo laptop on Amazon, but the seller messaged me that the listing was in error and the product is actually "certified refurbished" with a 90-day warranty. Should I keep it or cancel it (or something else)?
Background: My 2012 Lenovo Ideapad Y580 still works great with high specs -- SSD, i7-3610QM CPU, GTX 660M GPU. But it's got a serious hinge failure, and I want to transition to a lightweight supplement in case the screen dies. I've got a newer gaming desktop PC with a cheap Steam Link that can stream even demanding stuff to a low-powered client device, so I just need something that can handle web browsing and 1080p video streaming.
I found this seemingly perfect deal on Amazon:
Brand New Lenovo Flex 5 15'' 2-in-1 (I triple-checked the "new" part at the time)
Core i5-7200U
8GB RAM
256GB SSD
Win10
#80XB0002US
for only $488.99 [39% off]
CamelCamelCamel showed the price drop as fresh, down in stages from north of $1000 earlier this month, so I pounced. Now the seller (HawkDeals) has messaged me saying the listing was in error and it is actually a "certified refurbished" device from the manufacturer, will "appear as new" and has a 90-day warranty. They're holding it for me while I investigate.
I never looked into the certified refurbished market -- how reliable are they for laptops, both in general and from Amazon sellers? Is $488 for a refurbished 2-in-1 laptop with these specs and a 3-month warranty a good deal? Should I keep it? Cancel and look for something else? Raise hell with Amazon over the misleading listing and hope they somehow send me an actual new device?
Background: My 2012 Lenovo Ideapad Y580 still works great with high specs -- SSD, i7-3610QM CPU, GTX 660M GPU. But it's got a serious hinge failure, and I want to transition to a lightweight supplement in case the screen dies. I've got a newer gaming desktop PC with a cheap Steam Link that can stream even demanding stuff to a low-powered client device, so I just need something that can handle web browsing and 1080p video streaming.
I found this seemingly perfect deal on Amazon:
Brand New Lenovo Flex 5 15'' 2-in-1 (I triple-checked the "new" part at the time)
Core i5-7200U
8GB RAM
256GB SSD
Win10
#80XB0002US
for only $488.99 [39% off]
CamelCamelCamel showed the price drop as fresh, down in stages from north of $1000 earlier this month, so I pounced. Now the seller (HawkDeals) has messaged me saying the listing was in error and it is actually a "certified refurbished" device from the manufacturer, will "appear as new" and has a 90-day warranty. They're holding it for me while I investigate.
I never looked into the certified refurbished market -- how reliable are they for laptops, both in general and from Amazon sellers? Is $488 for a refurbished 2-in-1 laptop with these specs and a 3-month warranty a good deal? Should I keep it? Cancel and look for something else? Raise hell with Amazon over the misleading listing and hope they somehow send me an actual new device?
Best answer: I would never buy a refurbished with a 90 day warranty, even a factory refurbished. Lots of places call things refurbished when they are actually just used without going through a good, thorough proceess. On lenovo's own outlet site, refurbs come with a year warranty.
posted by Aranquis at 7:13 AM on July 30, 2018 [20 favorites]
posted by Aranquis at 7:13 AM on July 30, 2018 [20 favorites]
Best answer: Personally I'd reject that laptop on the basis that it's a run out 7th gen Intel processor which was made obsolete nearly a year ago. Ordinarily there isn't much difference between processor generations, but the gap between the 7th gen and 8th gen is huge, possibly due to Intel needing to pull out all stops to hinder a resurgent AMD... Intel have been sandbagging for years, only doling out 5% to 10% speed increases per generation since Sandy Bridge.
Intel claims a 40% increase in computing power between the i5-7200U and the i5-8250U. Synthetics show a roughly a 65% increase. Bumping it from a 2 core to a 4 core chip accounts for 25% of the improvement.
posted by xdvesper at 7:23 AM on July 30, 2018 [2 favorites]
Intel claims a 40% increase in computing power between the i5-7200U and the i5-8250U. Synthetics show a roughly a 65% increase. Bumping it from a 2 core to a 4 core chip accounts for 25% of the improvement.
posted by xdvesper at 7:23 AM on July 30, 2018 [2 favorites]
Best answer: Not a good deal with that 90 day warranty. Refurbed laptops need a year to be considered a good deal IMHO.
posted by juniperesque at 7:26 AM on July 30, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by juniperesque at 7:26 AM on July 30, 2018 [4 favorites]
Best answer: I would not trust a seller who pulls the shady "Oops, now that you've placed your order we're going to try to send you something other than what you thought you were buying" thing.
posted by ook at 7:31 AM on July 30, 2018 [43 favorites]
posted by ook at 7:31 AM on July 30, 2018 [43 favorites]
Refurbished stuff is generally a good deal.
But the sketchiness of it being listed as new, and only being mentioned as refurbished by the seller after you bought it is sketchy as hell. Cancel.
posted by SansPoint at 7:37 AM on July 30, 2018 [9 favorites]
But the sketchiness of it being listed as new, and only being mentioned as refurbished by the seller after you bought it is sketchy as hell. Cancel.
posted by SansPoint at 7:37 AM on July 30, 2018 [9 favorites]
If they buy the Lenovo extended warranty on your behalf, I'd take it. Yes, they (and you!) can buy a warranty for a used laptop that fell out of warranty for a while, it's just more expensive than buying it while it's still in the original (or previously extended) warranty period.
That said, you might be better off just getting the hinge fixed on your existing laptop.
posted by wierdo at 7:37 AM on July 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
That said, you might be better off just getting the hinge fixed on your existing laptop.
posted by wierdo at 7:37 AM on July 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Looking more thoroughly through their seller ratings, I am seeing occasional complaints that they were listing refurbished items as new. Hmmm.
How's this sound:
I'd love to, but the entire corner on one side has physically detached from the case and swivels independently. I'd need a complete chassis replacement (or a hell of a lot of masking tape).
posted by Rhaomi at 7:50 AM on July 30, 2018 [2 favorites]
How's this sound:
Hello again,wierdo: "That said, you might be better off just getting the hinge fixed on your existing laptop."
At first I thought I had misread the product listing, but on review it was in fact listed as New. I assume you have new models in stock, since the listing is currently over $700. Given that the error was not on my end and I made my purchase in good faith, I'd like you to ship me a new-in-box device as ordered. I'm sorry your listing was mistaken, but if you can't (or won't) fulfill the order as purchased then I will have to escalate this to Amazon.
I'd love to, but the entire corner on one side has physically detached from the case and swivels independently. I'd need a complete chassis replacement (or a hell of a lot of masking tape).
posted by Rhaomi at 7:50 AM on July 30, 2018 [2 favorites]
There is an industry dedicated to generating fake Amazon reviews, so even the reviews may be fake for this seller except for the few that are truly negative.
The Reply All podcast ep The Magic Store contained a pretty good explaner about how the various levers of deception work, but especially the fake reviews. I agree a 90 Day warranty is way way too short, but again, the dramatically shifting price is the real tip-off. Seller reviews on Amazon are currently kinda useless under their new guidelines and there is an entire industry dedicated to buying and posting fake user reviews. In this gig economy, people supplement their income by posting fake reviews, they are given guidelines for avoiding dedication by the Amazon algorithm. I'm sure you will receive a laptop in the mail if you buy it, but it is probably not close to what's advertised.
posted by jbenben at 8:10 AM on July 30, 2018 [6 favorites]
The Reply All podcast ep The Magic Store contained a pretty good explaner about how the various levers of deception work, but especially the fake reviews. I agree a 90 Day warranty is way way too short, but again, the dramatically shifting price is the real tip-off. Seller reviews on Amazon are currently kinda useless under their new guidelines and there is an entire industry dedicated to buying and posting fake user reviews. In this gig economy, people supplement their income by posting fake reviews, they are given guidelines for avoiding dedication by the Amazon algorithm. I'm sure you will receive a laptop in the mail if you buy it, but it is probably not close to what's advertised.
posted by jbenben at 8:10 AM on July 30, 2018 [6 favorites]
They sound sketchy. However, I have had excellent experiences with refurb Lenovos, if the original is office-class. I'm a ThinkPad fan, my current laptop is used, refurb, was cheap, and totally reliable.
Ask for a picture of the bottom of the actual Lenovo; I think you can get actual specs and possibly manufacture date from the product ID & type.
posted by theora55 at 8:14 AM on July 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
Ask for a picture of the bottom of the actual Lenovo; I think you can get actual specs and possibly manufacture date from the product ID & type.
posted by theora55 at 8:14 AM on July 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
Best answer: This is the definition of bait and switch - report seller immediately to Amazon. In your complaint note that your time is precious and that this was a terrible buying experience online through their market place and that you would not have this problem at Best Buy. They might offer a prime extension or free shipping or pantry coupon as reward/compensation for your efforts.
I am risk averse for items that cost more than 100$ and generally discourage anyone from buying things like fancy cameras, laptops and any such warranty essential gear/livelihood equipment from Amazon generally and third party in particular - it should be thought of as no better than ebay. I encourage going direct to the manufacturer like dell, hp, Lenovo or Apple for computing gear. I acknowledge that other stores aren't perfect but they generally have much less outright fraud - here's my list that I have used professionally and personally:
posted by zenon at 8:57 AM on July 30, 2018 [15 favorites]
I am risk averse for items that cost more than 100$ and generally discourage anyone from buying things like fancy cameras, laptops and any such warranty essential gear/livelihood equipment from Amazon generally and third party in particular - it should be thought of as no better than ebay. I encourage going direct to the manufacturer like dell, hp, Lenovo or Apple for computing gear. I acknowledge that other stores aren't perfect but they generally have much less outright fraud - here's my list that I have used professionally and personally:
- bnhphoto: camera/audio
- newegg/microcenter for the computer bits
- monoprice for the cables and AV
posted by zenon at 8:57 AM on July 30, 2018 [15 favorites]
If you're open to a refurb, buy it from someone that doesn't lie to you from the get-go.
I'd also seriously consider looking at an 8th generation CPU system if you have any need for speed. There is a big jump from the 7th to 8th generation.
posted by Candleman at 8:58 AM on July 30, 2018 [4 favorites]
I'd also seriously consider looking at an 8th generation CPU system if you have any need for speed. There is a big jump from the 7th to 8th generation.
posted by Candleman at 8:58 AM on July 30, 2018 [4 favorites]
I buy my laptops from Lenovo Outlet, straight from the source. The prices are typically better than aftermarket and sketchy 3rd party sellers and include a standard 1 year warranty.
posted by prinado at 9:31 AM on July 30, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by prinado at 9:31 AM on July 30, 2018 [4 favorites]
Best answer: Two strikes:
- as mentioned, sounds like a business model, and I wouldn't reward them for it.
- as also mentioned, the i5 stuff is getting really tired. i7 is a night and day diff.
posted by randomkeystrike at 9:48 AM on July 30, 2018
- as mentioned, sounds like a business model, and I wouldn't reward them for it.
- as also mentioned, the i5 stuff is getting really tired. i7 is a night and day diff.
posted by randomkeystrike at 9:48 AM on July 30, 2018
Best answer: ook: "I would not trust a seller who pulls the shady "Oops, now that you've placed your order we're going to try to send you something other than what you thought you were buying" thing."
This. It sounds like a classic bait and switch and I wouldn't reward that behaviour.
posted by Mitheral at 10:30 AM on July 30, 2018 [4 favorites]
This. It sounds like a classic bait and switch and I wouldn't reward that behaviour.
posted by Mitheral at 10:30 AM on July 30, 2018 [4 favorites]
Best answer: Pretty sure the adage of "too good to be true" very much applies here, and a seller that doesn't list items in the condition that they'll be sold in is not a seller I want to deal with, even if they do come clean after you've ordered but before you've received the item. I'd skip out on this, and report the shady behavior to Amazon.
posted by Aleyn at 1:20 PM on July 30, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by Aleyn at 1:20 PM on July 30, 2018 [2 favorites]
Best answer: If they had been selling it honestly as a refurb, then maybe. But like this, no. Also, that's more than I'd be comfortable paying for a refurb with very little warranty. Especially since I suspect that Lenovo would laugh if you did try to warranty it for anything with them and you obviously can't trust the seller.
posted by monopas at 8:28 PM on July 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by monopas at 8:28 PM on July 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
Best answer: Nthing reporting them to Amazon. That's too sketchy.
posted by getawaysticks at 5:13 PM on August 2, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by getawaysticks at 5:13 PM on August 2, 2018 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Final update:
Found even more suspect things in the HawkDeals feedback page, including other refurbs listed as "new" and even refurbs described as "like new" arriving with noticeable damage and worn-out batteries (with them claiming the latter was considered "like new" if it lasted longer than 45 minutes).
After their BS blame-shifting email, I contacted Amazon customer support. The rep put me on hold a few times to apparently haggle with the seller in real time, which is impressive considering it was close to midnight. I repeatedly made the case that, whether this behavior was mere sloppiness or deliberate fraud, the seller had a responsibility to provide the item as listed -- even if they had to eat the ~$200 difference -- and that doing so would hopefully encourage them to do better in the future. The rep ended up telling me he expected they would provide a new device, and to call Amazon if they ghosted or refused within 48 hours so I could file an "A-to-Z" claim against them.
The next morning they curtly emailed me saying that, as I didn't want the refurbished device, they'd be cancelling the order themselves. Grrr.
Called Amazon back that night. The first rep was pretty disappointing, making a note of the incident in their files and offering a $30 credit but saying that I could no longer file a claim because the order had been cancelled. I said this sounded like a major loophole, that I had deliberately not cancelled in order to keep them on the hook, and asked for a supervisor. That was more fruitful -- the super gave a more concrete pledge that they would actively investigate the seller and bumped the credit up to $100. (YMMV here, I've got Prime and this is my first big complaint in the ten years I've had an account.)
So, no new device, but a cool hundo to play with, and hopefully the Amazon inquiry shuts them down or at least scares them straight. My one regret is not filing a claim before calling support, so they couldn't just cancel on me themselves. Thanks for the advice, everyone.
posted by Rhaomi at 8:23 PM on August 2, 2018 [3 favorites]
Found even more suspect things in the HawkDeals feedback page, including other refurbs listed as "new" and even refurbs described as "like new" arriving with noticeable damage and worn-out batteries (with them claiming the latter was considered "like new" if it lasted longer than 45 minutes).
After their BS blame-shifting email, I contacted Amazon customer support. The rep put me on hold a few times to apparently haggle with the seller in real time, which is impressive considering it was close to midnight. I repeatedly made the case that, whether this behavior was mere sloppiness or deliberate fraud, the seller had a responsibility to provide the item as listed -- even if they had to eat the ~$200 difference -- and that doing so would hopefully encourage them to do better in the future. The rep ended up telling me he expected they would provide a new device, and to call Amazon if they ghosted or refused within 48 hours so I could file an "A-to-Z" claim against them.
The next morning they curtly emailed me saying that, as I didn't want the refurbished device, they'd be cancelling the order themselves. Grrr.
Called Amazon back that night. The first rep was pretty disappointing, making a note of the incident in their files and offering a $30 credit but saying that I could no longer file a claim because the order had been cancelled. I said this sounded like a major loophole, that I had deliberately not cancelled in order to keep them on the hook, and asked for a supervisor. That was more fruitful -- the super gave a more concrete pledge that they would actively investigate the seller and bumped the credit up to $100. (YMMV here, I've got Prime and this is my first big complaint in the ten years I've had an account.)
So, no new device, but a cool hundo to play with, and hopefully the Amazon inquiry shuts them down or at least scares them straight. My one regret is not filing a claim before calling support, so they couldn't just cancel on me themselves. Thanks for the advice, everyone.
posted by Rhaomi at 8:23 PM on August 2, 2018 [3 favorites]
Response by poster: So I followed up with an accurate two-star seller review (they were proactive and polite-ish), and... they contacted me back! This is rich:
posted by Rhaomi at 12:43 PM on August 3, 2018 [1 favorite]
I understand you are upset, I would be too. As a small business and fairly new to Amazon our feedback is very important to us. While I do understand that you are upset, I was glad that we caught the error before shipping you an incorrect item. Unfortunately, we don't carry this item in a new condition if not we may have been able to work something out. I would like to offer you a discount on any future purchase. Depending on the item I may be able to get more aggressive on the discount.My reply:
As I mentioned above our feedback score is very important for several reasons. One for our customers or potential customers and two to show up higher in Amazon search. Would you please consider revising/removing your feedback you left for us?
Thank you for your consideration
Terry
Hi Terry,So, fingers crossed. Here's their review/contact page if you want to help add any public pressure.
I think seller feedback is important, too. It's what convinced me to contact Amazon when I found customer reviews saying they:
- ordered an item listed as new that was actually refurbished
- ordered a refurbished item in "like new" condition that was visibly damaged
- ordered a "like new" refurb with a nearly dead battery that you judged acceptable because it lasted longer than 45 minutes
- received an item with notably different specs
- sent you an item for replacement and heard nothing back
- received the wrong item... twice
I was also not impressed with your claim that "we didn't create nor do we control the listing," which sounds like dishonest and irresponsible blame-shifting.
I don't know whether this pattern of misleading listings and shipping problems is just sloppiness or a deliberate business plan (I imagine selling used goods as new generates a lot of extra sales and undercuts the competition nicely). Either way it's clearly not going to stop if you can get off the hook by just cancelling the order yourselves when a customer insists on getting what they ordered with Amazon.
If you can acquire a verified new-in-box model of the device I ordered and send it to me in return for the price I paid, I will amend my review accordingly and bump it up a star or two. This would obviously require you eating the price difference, but hopefully that ~$200 would serve as a strong incentive to avoid bad behavior like this in the future. If that's too high a price, then I'll just leave my review as is, along with my other social media posts describing this incident.
posted by Rhaomi at 12:43 PM on August 3, 2018 [1 favorite]
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posted by Rhaomi at 6:44 AM on July 30, 2018