Would you drop or be willing to ammend a Protective Order?
April 11, 2018 6:54 AM   Subscribe

My ex is asking me to consider dropping a 2 year domestic violence protective order I have against him because he has been denied several jobs due to it, and is currently in the que for another one in which they need to see court documents of it being dropped- is this a reasonable request?

If you look through my past post, or recall- I successfully obtained a DV protective order against my ex and father of my child in August of 2017, which is effective for two years. It is a criminal offense, he is to stay within a certain distance from me unless at drop off/pick up, and he is not able to own/maintain a weapon. This was the result of escalating behavior on his point which the final straw was him showing up extremely intoxicated early morning hours trying to get into my home- police arrived, weapons were drawn because he woulnd't cooperate, he was arrested and charged with a public intoxication. He was highely emotionally abusive, controlling and manipulative- there wasn't any phsyical abuse other than one instance a couple years ago.

Now, my question....From that point of receiving the order until most recently, he has remained at a distance, he has not made any overtly threatening commments and has been "pleasent" to co-parent with. BUT, he still will send messages that are inappropriate which I ignore that relate to missing me, or the desire to have me back in his life. I don't feel he has fully respected this order, nor does he fully respect me or my space. I either ignore his messages, or after more than one I will tell him to stop texting me unless it is regarding our daughter. Now, most recently, a hiring official called me from a contracting firm for a federal government agency for a security position they are offering him. My ex has asked me to consider dropping the protective order because this is hindering him from a lot of jobs he has been applying for due to him having an active protecive order preventing him from firearms or moving forward with his clearance.

My heart feels bad only because I do not want to be responsible for someone not being able to futher their career, I hate that I feel a little responsble for that- but, at the same time I feel he did this to himself and that he needs to face the consequences. If I were to drop this, I woulnd't have a leg to stand on in court if something bad were to happen, or things escalated again in the future. He has given me no reason to trust the fact that he wont try to pull something again, and I am not willing to go into court and ask to rescind it because my alleagtions are true and my fear of him still does exhist, maybe just not at the same level it did when the police encounter happened. I don't trust him around me, and although I don't think he would harm me necessarily, he still trys to assert control, or attempt to mainpulate me. I feel safer with this order. It was my only recourse in protecting myself as he had been abusive in the past on one occassion and with his reaction to law enforcement and not giving up on me, he kept showing up unwanted and more of a stalking/harassing behavior with threatening undertones.

My head is obviously saying don't do it, and tell him to deal with the 2 year order, or if he wants to fight it he can try to get a court hearing to drop it where he has to prove to the judge and the judge makes that decision, not me. I don't feel right pulling an order when I don't feel the reason is anything other than to help him further his carrer, and not my safety or feeling or security. But, in the end, does the order really serve much purpose... I don't want to stop him from getting a good job, but I also don't want to stand down on this order because I did it for the right reasons. Please give me input on how you may handle this situation?
posted by MamaBee223 to Human Relations (86 answers total) 4 users marked this as a favorite
 
Your protective order is there for a reason and it's there to protect you. Yes, it's inconveniencing him a lot. That's his problem, not yours.

He has given me no reason to trust the fact that he wont try to pull something again

This is the most important thing. You need this PO. Do not let him guilt you into dropping it.
posted by Tomorrowful at 6:57 AM on April 11 [118 favorites]


No. No, a thousand times no.

It is not your fault. This is like saying "if I robbed a guy, that conviction would keep me from getting a lot of jobs, so that guy shouldn't press charges". He fucked up, he can't accept the consequences, he can deal with it. It's his circus AND his monkeys.

Leave the EPO in place. Please. I say this from a place of working with vulnerable people. He is showing you a mask; he can and will remove it when consequences are taken away.
posted by Nyx at 6:58 AM on April 11 [65 favorites]


Please don't. The last year has shown me how little men are held accountable for their terrible actions, and how easily mentally unstable ones can get a hold of guns....
posted by Green Eyed Monster at 7:00 AM on April 11 [28 favorites]


I don't have direct experience with this, but I feel like you have your answer. You don't trust him. I wouldn't pull it. It makes sense that he wants you to, but as you said, he brought this on himself. It's not a life sentence. It was a reasonable move for you given the circumstances, regardless of how it inconveniences him.

Of course he's going to ask you to lift it. It's causing him problems. But you don't have to. You shouldn't. You're not responsible for him. You're responsible for your safety, and your child's safety.
posted by Knicke at 7:00 AM on April 11 [6 favorites]


No. There's a reason he can't have a gun and isn't a candidate for security clearance. Her needs to find a job that doesn't involve a gun.

He's just trying to manipulate you again.
posted by Dashy at 7:04 AM on April 11 [105 favorites]


NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE

I can type this like a thousand more times and it will be true every time.

signed, someone who went through this exact same thing.
posted by corb at 7:05 AM on April 11 [40 favorites]


But, in the end, does the order really serve much purpose...

in your own words, "I feel safer with this order." that's all you need to know.

also i admit that i don't know much about federal hiring processes, but it seems odd to me that someone responsible for federal hiring would call you about him getting or not getting a job because of the order.
posted by poffin boffin at 7:10 AM on April 11 [114 favorites]


Many no votes from me. An illegal number of no votes. Conspiracy theory number of fraudulent no votes from me.

My partner is in a line of work that runs into trying to get people protective orders. They are hard to get, as you likely know, they aren't handed out easily or lightly.

If he has a problem with the order, he can take it up with the judge not the person the judge is protecting from him.
posted by French Fry at 7:13 AM on April 11 [20 favorites]


But, in the end, does the order really serve much purpose...

Besides keeping you safe, the order serves the purpose of preventing a dangerous person from owning a gun. The fact that he can't get a job where he carries a gun is a feature, not a bug, of this system.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 7:14 AM on April 11 [90 favorites]


My heart feels bad only because I do not want to be responsible for someone not being able to futher their career, I hate that I feel a little responsble for that

You are not responsible for it - he is. He has been repeatedly violent and threatening. He's an adult, and now he's facing the consequences of his actions.

Also, people like him who act violently should not be allowed to have guns. The law is working exactly as it should.
posted by MangoNews at 7:16 AM on April 11 [87 favorites]


hard, hard, hard no.
posted by anthropomorphic at 7:17 AM on April 11 [5 favorites]


Wait, he wants you to drop it so he can get a job that involves carrying a gun!? Yeah, FUCK. NO.
posted by sexyrobot at 7:18 AM on April 11 [34 favorites]


this is hindering him from a lot of jobs he has been applying for due to him having an active protecive order preventing him from firearms or moving forward with his clearance.

If not for your safety, or your child's safety, please think of society in general. Your ex should not have a firearm, from what you have posted of his behaviour. You should not drop this order which may allow him clearance to get a firearm. Some of the shootings in the past couple of months may have been prevented if a person with a history of domestic violence did not have a gun.
posted by kellyblah at 7:19 AM on April 11 [59 favorites]


Adding to the chorus here, but hard pass on this one. Do not drop the protective order.

In fact, were I in your shoes, I'd be talking to my attorney about the possibility of pursuing a no-contact order to get the ex to cut out this kind of request and his "not overtly threatening" messages.
posted by schroedingersgirl at 7:29 AM on April 11 [46 favorites]


this is hindering him from a lot of jobs he has been applying for due to him having an active protecive order preventing him from firearms or moving forward with his clearance.

think for a second about what you're saying here and how shocking it is. you're saying that there are multiple employers who know this man has an order of protection out against him because he was abusive and threatening to a woman and as a result has been deemed unsafe around that woman, or to handle firearms

AND THEY STILL WANT TO HIRE HIM IF THEY POSSIBLY CAN

they want to hire him so badly they are moving forward as far as they can and then telling him all he has to do is harass you into dropping, it, even contacting you directly in at least one case?? and you're concerned that you're hindering him from getting jobs?

you're not seeing evidence of his alleged hard time, you're seeing the proof of how much the world loves a violent man. the world is arranging itself to protect him. even you, you who know better than anybody how bad he is, are tempted to endanger yourself in order to coddle and elevate him in life. I have had a lot of jobs but never have I been wanted so badly as all these jobs apparently want this abuser. would you want to be detained by this man as a security guard? I would not.

abusers aren't blocked from the good things in life and certainly not by people like you taking care of yourselves. if only. take care of yourself. don't take his "needs" seriously. if he's unfit for any job that doesn't require trust and/or a gun, he's unfit for any job. you can't fix that for him and you shouldn't try.
posted by queenofbithynia at 7:30 AM on April 11 [143 favorites]


My heart feels bad only because...

Only because he is manipulating you to feel bad for him. If he was sincere about your safety and leaving you alone and about the best interests of his child none of this would be happening, he would not be contacting you saying he is missing you, and he would be dealing with his own employment issues (for example - he would be applying for appropriate jobs where a firearm is not required, just for a start, or he would wait until the expiration of the order before seeking another job),

He is manipulating you.

Please please please trust your instincts and leave the order in place. If he pushes you, push back and say that it's on the advice of your lawyer (whether you involve your lawyer or not, but I think you should give them a heads up). Start documenting - if he starts to feel that you are effing with his livelihood things may begin to escalate again.
posted by vignettist at 7:32 AM on April 11 [31 favorites]


A thousand times no, don't do it. For all the reasons others have outlined.

Also, this is fishy as heck: "Now, most recently, a hiring official called me from a contracting firm for a federal government agency for a security position they are offering him." I...really feel like they should not be doing that. Asking a DV survivor to drop a PO!?!? It seems illegal. Are you sure it was really from a hiring official? Could he have put a friend up to impersonating one?
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 7:39 AM on April 11 [85 favorites]


Now, most recently, a hiring official called me from a contracting firm for a federal government agency for a security position they are offering him.

Like Poffin Boffin, this is setting off all kinds of bullshit alarms for me. I cannot think of a job as relatively mundane as a security position where any company would care enough to call the Ex of a candidate and get involved in what is clearly domestic drama. I can't imagine a situation where even a candidate is strong enough for a high level position for a mega corporation/agency where they would call a spouse. Also, I'm not even sure they are *allowed* to call and make comments regarding a judgment and asking for it to be removed. Everything about it sounds fishy, to me, and I think he got a friend to call you and try and manipulate you - every bit of which suggests you need to keep that order in place.

There are a ton of jobs he can get. Even if this is legit, it's not stopping him working somewhere else for the remainder of the order and then reapplying. Not your problem.
posted by Brockles at 7:40 AM on April 11 [40 favorites]


Listen to Taylor Swift.

"I’m not going to let you or your client make me feel in any way that this is my fault. Here we are years later, and I’m being blamed for the unfortunate events of his life that are the product of his decisions—not mine.”

(While the particulars are not similar to your case, you are not to blame. You are not to blame. He can choose to not manipulate you and emotionally abuse you. He himself is to blame.)
posted by moiraine at 7:43 AM on April 11 [43 favorites]


I came to say what MangoNews said. It FEELS like you're responsible, because you're the one drawing a boundary, but this situation is a result of HIS actions, which HE has control over.
posted by spindrifter at 7:43 AM on April 11 [5 favorites]


Your safety is your number one priority. Please DO NOT let him guilt you into this.

The order was put in place for a reason, and you are not in any way responsible for what is happening in your ex's life. Certain actions result in certain consequences, and your ex needs to learn that. By continuing to send you inappropriate messages, he has shown you that he does not respect you or the order and that he has not actually changed or learned anything at all (it's been 9 months since the order was put in place and he is still doing this!!). This is just another way by which he is trying to manipulate you. What he is doing here is typical for abusers: shifting responsibility onto you and trying to make you feel guilty for something that is HIS problem.

Another thing to keep in mind is that a tactic abusers often use is to keep testing the waters to see how far they can go with their victim. If you comply with this request, not only will you have done something that you are not comfortable with and that makes you feel unsafe, but it will also signal to him that you are still vulnerable to him and that he has power over both your emotions and your actions. Once he sees that he was able to cross this boundary, it is likely that he will push even more in an attempt to cross others, especially when he knows you have nothing in place to protect yourself. The last thing you want is to undo the progress you have made since having left him, or to once again have to deal with police/courts/etc. which would end up becoming an even bigger hassle than the first time since this time you would have actively been responsible for putting yourself in a vulnerable position after protective measures had already been put in place.

Trust yourself and your instincts and feelings. Do what is best for YOU. Protect yourself and your child. And when you start feeling bad about his not being able to access certain employment opportunities, remind yourself that he is not able to do so because of HIM and not because of you.
posted by piamater at 7:44 AM on April 11 [26 favorites]


Now, most recently, a hiring official called me from a contracting firm for a federal government agency for a security position they are offering him.

I'm not sure OP is saying that the official contacted her asking her to drop the order. Rather, they may have been following up on the background check that revealed the existence of the order, to confirm its accuracy. If it was to request she drop it, yes...I'd be very very suspicious of the call's authenticity.

Don't do it, OP. You know you shouldn't do it. He's using your kind heart against you.
posted by praemunire at 7:45 AM on April 11 [8 favorites]


This is a really common gambit used by abusers to get their exes to drop protective orders. It is exactly the gambit used by the ex of a friend of mine a few years ago. He dangled the possibility of a better job, which would allow him to pay his child-support more regularly, and which would also take him out of the area so she wouldn’t have to deal with him being local anymore.

The day he got his guns back, he killed her and her 13-year-old son, and then himself. It was only by chance that their three younger children weren’t home that night, and survived.

Keep the protection order in place. His difficulty in finding work is a consequence he’s experiencing because of his own behavior. You and your child, the safety of you and your child, are paramount. It is not worth the risk to you. Please protect yourself.
posted by Orlop at 7:47 AM on April 11 [117 favorites]


Can you refer him to your lawyer every time he brings it up? Or simply tell him to revisit the issue with the court.

He's only having problems because he's trying to get a job that includes firearms. That's no longer possible for him because of his choices and actions.

You are not holding him back from career advancement.
posted by jbenben at 7:49 AM on April 11 [17 favorites]


if he wants to fight it he can try to get a court hearing to drop it where he has to prove to the judge and the judge makes that decision, not me

I think it would be very reasonable to tell him that you don't think it is very fair of him to ask you to drop the order. It puts you in a very bad position by asking you to weigh your feelings of safety against his career. You could add that if he really wants to have it dropped, there are legal procedures he can follow to do just that.
posted by Rock Steady at 7:50 AM on April 11 [2 favorites]


From a Mefite who wishes to remain anonymous:
As a woman and DV survivor who works in a federal building please for the love of God don't do this. Sometimes I work late and it's almost empty here except for security. Please don't do this.
posted by LobsterMitten at 7:51 AM on April 11 [74 favorites]


My heart feels bad only because I do not want to be responsible for someone not being able to further their career, I hate that I feel a little responsible for that-

Think about how you would feel if your dropping the order resulted in him having a gun and he used it against someone else. While it's perfectly valid to think of your own safety, and you absolutely should, it's not only your safety we're talking about. You are not keeping him from getting a job. You are keeping him from getting a job that requires him to carry a firearm. That is a good thing for everyone.
posted by FencingGal at 7:55 AM on April 11 [15 favorites]


That’s a hard ‘no’ from me. Unsure if you mean “clearance” in the “information access” sense or the “allowed to carry a weapon for work” sense, or both. Either way, it’s a no from me. People with this kind of history being denied access to sensitive information and weapons is a feature, not a bug. Sucks for him but he should have thought about the consequences of his actions before he did what he did and earned those consequences.
posted by Alterscape at 7:58 AM on April 11 [3 favorites]


My ex is asking me to consider dropping a 2 year domestic violence protective order I have against him because he has been denied several jobs due to it

SO WHAT THE FUCK DID HE THINK WAS GOING TO HAPPEN?

Can't get a job where he gets to play with guns? Boo the fuck hoo. Sucks to be him.

If he continues pressuring you to drop this order, start seeing about getting the fucking thing extended.

People who abuse their partners are shit on society's shoe. He can't get his favourite kind of job? TOUGH SHIT. His problem.

People with this kind of history being denied access to sensitive information and weapons is a feature, not a bug.

Well put.
posted by flabdablet at 8:02 AM on April 11 [42 favorites]


My heart feels bad only because I do not want to be responsible for someone not being able to further their career, I hate that I feel a little responsible for that-

Repeat after me: NOT MY RESPONSIBILITY. NOT MY RESPONSIBILITY. He is the one responsible for derailing his career due to his own actions.

Our society tells women they are responsible for men's actions. Gropey McHandsey gets fired or has to quit his illustrious career? It's some woman's fault! Either for tempting him or for reporting him or for calling him on his actions. Violent Asshole gets fired and can't get a job involving guns? It's the woman's fault for trying to protect herself! It's one of the many toxic narratives of the patriarchy and it's got to stop.

Grown men are responsible and accountable for their own actions. Full stop. Your ex can find a different career, or he can accept that his own actions have curtailed the one he has. Do not drop the restraining order, do not feel sorry for him, you are not responsible.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 8:03 AM on April 11 [24 favorites]


1) The protective order is in place for a reason, and the length of time is what the law has deemed appropriate for his behavior. 2) He has not fully been respecting the intent of the protective order (even if he has been respecting the letter of the law), 3) You give no indication anywhere in here that he has sought help for the behaviors that resulted in this order, 4) You give no indication that his behavior has changed since the order (aside from following the letter of the law). If any of those things were true, I'd still probably say no because it makes you feel safer. But with all of those things being true, it's not just "no" but "FUCK NO." He has fully earned these consequences, and continues to do so with his continued behavior.
posted by tchemgrrl at 8:04 AM on April 11 [4 favorites]


Looking at your past questions with this guy, he seems to have had a long history of "boo hoo not my fault I'm just such a victim of Bad Women" when faced with the consequences of his decisions and/or actions. Men like this have a pattern of making the women in their lives feel guilty and responsible for him. With people like this it's a pattern of Evil Them, Poor Me.

Don't fall into his trap. If necessary, therapy or a support group (like Codependents Anonymous or AlAnon) might help you.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 8:09 AM on April 11 [6 favorites]


This is a really common gambit used by abusers to get their exes to drop protective orders.

And now that the fuckers can organize online, it's only ever going to get more common.
posted by flabdablet at 8:11 AM on April 11 [9 favorites]


Not to just add to the chorus of No Fucking Way. I also suggest that join document this request now with your lawyer and any relevant authorities. Any information you can remember about the phone call/caller would potentially be relevant. This guy is engaging in gun seeking and that is terrifying. You are absolutely right to not want to do this ‘for him.’

He may be setting up a pattern of behavior that may allow you to extend the protective order. I am not an attorney, definitely speak to your attorney. Please, let your attorney know that this is going on. It may violate his current protective order.
posted by bilabial at 8:12 AM on April 11 [52 favorites]


document this request now with your lawyer and any relevant authorities

Strongly seconded.
posted by flabdablet at 8:13 AM on April 11 [16 favorites]


You are allowing someone more qualified to further their career by keeping the order in place. There are lots of jobs that don't require clearance or guns, he should apply for some of those.

As to the emails, etc - are you saving all of them? Because should he ask a judge to shorten the order, you should bring those to court as it shows how he will push exactly to the limit.

The recruiter business is weird - was this part of the background check or did he give them your information? Did they ask you to drop it or did they just inquire about it? It sounds shady and either not a recruiter or possibly one that is toeing the line of harassing a DV survivor.
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 8:13 AM on April 11 [9 favorites]


either not a recruiter or possibly one that is toeing the line of harassing a DV survivor.

I'm tipping this is almost sure to be a bro met online.
posted by flabdablet at 8:17 AM on April 11 [23 favorites]


And just to add to the chorus, this request from a "hiring official" seems absolutely bogus.

As an HR professional who worked for an organization that required police and vulnerable sector screening checks to be done by potential employees, I can guarantee you that an individual with such a protective order in place is not a candidate that would be sought after or hired. Not every organizations can require police checks as a prerequisite for employment. For those that do, it has been established that safety of certain individuals, populations or the general public could be at risk, and the whole point of requiring police checks is to PREVENT potentially dangerous individuals from entering these organizations. The hiring official would not even consider hiring this person, let alone be chasing their former partner and asking them to drop a protective order so that they could hire them (it feels ridiculous just writing this).

My bet is that this was a friend posing as a hiring official, but even if it wasn't, there is something very shady about the whole thing.
posted by piamater at 8:31 AM on April 11 [28 favorites]


One of the hardest lessons to learn in life is that our actions have consequences. Touch a hot stove and you risk burning yourself.

Your ex earned that order of protection through his irresponsible, dangerous and threatening actions. Dealing with the after effects of his poor decisions is simply a lesson he is going to have to learn. That is not your fault, nor your responsibility.

It's natural for you to want to help him. Think about it this way: helping him here would put you and your daughter at risk. Your safety and hers are far, FAR more important than him being able to carry a firearm. Which, frankly speaking, is a responsibility he has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt he should never be given again.

Is his convenience more important than your daughter's safety? Than yours? No.

This will be a difficult lesson for him to learn. But it is well-deserved. And you should not feel even the slightest bit guilty for that.
posted by zarq at 8:32 AM on April 11 [7 favorites]


I cannot possibly add anything to the EXCELLENT comments and advice already posted above, but I will anyway.

- DO NOT DO THIS.
- HE IS MANIPULATING YOU.
- YOU WOULD BE RISKING YOUR LIFE, YOUR CHILDREN'S LIVES, AND THE LIVES OF OTHERS.
- THE ORDER WILL EVENTUALLY EXPIRE AND HE CAN WAIT TIL THEN.
- UNTIL THEN HE NEEDS TO BE AN ADULT AND DEAL WITH HIS OWN SHIT.

NOT

YOUR

RESPONSIBILITY.

posted by I_Love_Bananas at 8:33 AM on April 11 [13 favorites]


Sounds like your protective order protects everyone if it keeps a gun out of the hands of this man with poor self control and judgement, so i vote no.
posted by WeekendJen at 8:33 AM on April 11 [4 favorites]


They chose to be abusive enough to warrant a protective order. They CHOSE. So let them revel in the consequences of their choices like the rest of us. From what I have seen, there's NO reason for them to skate this. They put in the work, they deserve the rewards.
posted by Samizdata at 8:43 AM on April 11 [2 favorites]


You're not keeping him from furthering his career. He did that to himself. He is suffering the consequences. Don't make yourself responsible for him, his happiness, his ability to get a job, or any of his behaviors.
posted by Knowyournuts at 8:45 AM on April 11 [3 favorites]


Yeah, don't do it. And even more than that, don't feel guilty! This is absolutely not your fault, nor is it your problem. You and your child come first.
posted by number9dream at 9:08 AM on April 11 [3 favorites]


Don’t do it.

If it’s not a sham to get access to guns and he does feel that he’s being denied work (that I guess has to involve guns) and is blaming/fixating on you, and is (evidently) unstable, I would worry his anger/behaviour might escalate. Maybe get advice from DV experts on how to *further* protect yourself.
posted by cotton dress sock at 9:08 AM on April 11 [6 favorites]


He's manipulating you, and using others to manipulate you (that "HR" call was absolutely bogus, no company is going to do that), and it's pretty clear that he's not "over" whatever issues he's got, I'd say he's more dangerous than ever. Document all of this nonsense and if you can get him put on an even tighter leash, by all means do it.
posted by seanmpuckett at 9:13 AM on April 11 [9 favorites]


Add me to the list of those saying "nope." Your ex needs to find a non-security-related job that does not require a badge, or a gun (especially not a gun), or a government security clearance.

Almost every day there is another story about someone deciding to solve some personal problem with a firearm, and over and over, not every time but surprisingly often, there is a previous history of domestic violence and firearms -- just like your ex's history Right Now.

He can best demonstrate that he has changed by keeping his nose clean for another one point something years, and then the PO will expire on its own. While he is at it, he can get started on a new, non-security-type career, one that does not involve firearms (or badges, or uniforms, or the need for self control that he seems to lack).

Stay safe. Say no. If you can at all, have someone else (attorney, judge) tell him no on your behalf.
posted by JustMeToo at 9:14 AM on April 11 [5 favorites]


Thank you all. You've reminded me that all the work I've done and how I thought I was out of his web of manipulative tactics, almost for a second had me feeling guilty, and more importantly how dangerous this person is. And most importantly that maybe I need to continue getting more help and support on all of this. At your advice ive contacted my lawyer and the DV line as well as filed a complaint with the hiring agency.

I've filed a complaint the the federal agency who this contractor allegedly worked for... I only caught his last name. It was appauling what he said, he basically told me that they were at a stand still because of the order and that I did have options as in that my options were going into the court to drop it and made some statement of "well people make mistakes, and we deserve second chances... he looks perfect for our job..." I was speechless and fuming. I work for a pretty high level fed government dept that investigates this kind of misconduct, so I'm actually really surprised that he even tried to pull that knowing full well where I am at. And everything he is saying doesn't add up, he said he was given a conditional offer and is starting training next week. I'm just blown away that an agency would hire him with a contingency to drop an order, or they don't know about it yet- which they soon will. I'm starting to lean towards the, this is a ploy and overtly manipulative tactic and probably a friend who called- which is even scarier. Thank you for waking me up.
posted by MamaBee223 at 9:26 AM on April 11 [147 favorites]


I do not want to be responsible for someone not being able to further their career

Who said he gets to have career progression? He can absolutely find a job, even if it's one he doesn't like. The decision he is making to not pursue a job without access to weapons is 100% on him.

Let's be real: unemployment is at just over 4% - the lowest rate in seventeen years. There are literally not enough workers in the United States. If you live in anything larger than a town of just a handful of people or anywhere other than in a super-remote location, there is work.

I'm not suggesting you pass this on as, like, advice to him, but has he considered these types of employers, some of which are places where people who are leaving the criminal justice system begin their careers over:

- food service
- call centers
- trucking/driving/delivery
- warehouses/logistics
- back-office/admin work in a corporate setting

Again, unless he is truly completely without education, skills or training, there is no reason that this man cannot find a job - even under-the-table cash-in-hand work.

Good luck. Don't drop the order.
posted by mdonley at 9:31 AM on April 11 [5 favorites]


Just sending you strength, MamaBee! I'm impressed by your fortitude and your compassion. I hope your team is able to bolster the amazing work you've already done. You deserve peace and safety.
posted by amanda at 9:32 AM on April 11 [33 favorites]


It was appauling what he said, he basically told me that they were at a stand still because of the order and that I did have options as in that my options were going into the court to drop it and made some statement of "well people make mistakes, and we deserve second chances... he looks perfect for our job..."

Wow, I rescind all prior qualifications; that is either someone completely abusing his position or fake.
posted by praemunire at 9:39 AM on April 11 [5 favorites]


No.

It is not a reasonable request, or he'd ask the court. Also, it's just a few months from expiring in August if I read your details correctly.

Don't drop it. Your head is right.

He can find another job, even if temporarily, and find another after the order expires. Or, you know, you might document this kind of stuff as a reason to seek an extension of the original order.
posted by OneSmartMonkey at 9:43 AM on April 11 [5 favorites]


Yeah, what praemunire said. That’s not how any sort of government background check I’m aware of works. I call shenanigans, and not the fun kind of shenanigans.
posted by Alterscape at 9:44 AM on April 11 [3 favorites]


In fact, given said shenanigans, I would recommend re-upping the order, given that it is not too great a burden on you.
posted by Samizdata at 9:45 AM on April 11 [37 favorites]


In fact, given said shenanigans, I would recommend re-upping the order, given that it is not too great a burden on you.

I was just thinking similarly. If, in fact, it can be demonstrated that his behavior here is fraudulent, is it possible to pursue some sort of charge against him? Contempt of court? Grounds for extension of protective order, at the very least?
posted by dlugoczaj at 9:48 AM on April 11 [29 favorites]


He can find another job. There are tons of jobs that don't require you to do all these clearances. A guy I went to school with served time in a US penitentiary for domestic terrorism and now he's a highly regarded professional in a field that you'd think requires people to check on those things, but apparently doesn't or doesn't see that or the release terms as a big deal.

You need the PO.
posted by Chaussette and the Pussy Cats at 9:50 AM on April 11 [3 favorites]


In fact, given said shenanigans, I would recommend re-upping the order, given that it is not too great a burden on you.

Agreed. Given what is clearly an attempt to manipulate the system, clearly he needs to be under it a bit longer. In your shoes, I'd want that order in place for at least 6 months after he had forgotten entirely who I was.
posted by Brockles at 10:18 AM on April 11 [12 favorites]


Former federal contractor, current federal employee. Even if you drop the protective order, it should still come up during his clearance process and will be part of the investigation. The SF-86 goes back 7 years, so dropping a the order isn't going to go back in time and make everything hunky-dory.

He will still have to tell them he was arrested (p. 86) and that the offense involved both domestic violence and alcohol. He will still have to tell them that his use of alcohol resulted in intervention by a law enforcement professional (p. 100).

And when the investigator comes to interview you, the fact that he has not respected the order will be another negative factor in the adjudication process. Depending on who asked you to drop the order, it will also have a negative impact-- either on the company's status if it truly was a company employee, or on his own status if he had someone make the call for him.

It's good that you reported it to the agency that holds the contract. I would also strongly recommend that you report this to the security people at your own agency. Someone is attempting to use bonds of affection/obligation (your previous relationship and current co-parenting status) to coerce you into taking action in court, which would involve lying to the judge-- telling the judge that you feel the order is no longer needed when that is not the case. Frankly, at this point, even if you did get a call from someone who purports to be an investigator, I'm not sure you would even want to trust that and arrange to meet with them. I would ask your security office to help you confirm the investigator's credentials if you are contacted and arrange to meet the investigator at work within the security office-- do not arrange to meet at home. I would ask the security people at your own agency if they are able to assist you with a risk assessment.

Also, some contracting companies are everywhere-- if any of your own work or your office's work touches on or could possibly touch on this company, then I advise you to talk to the legal/ethics advisor and ask about getting something documented that recuses you from any dealings with or about that company. That would be to protect both you and the agency from any accusations.

TL;DR -
1. Do NOT drop the protective order.
2. Go to your own agency's security office to report this situation and ask for help in verifying any investigators who may call and want to meet you.
3. Go to your own agency's legal/ethics advisor to document this situation and get something in writing confirming that none of your work deals with this company or recusing you from any work that does deal with the company.
posted by scarnato at 10:38 AM on April 11 [64 favorites]


" I don't feel he has fully respected this order, nor does he fully respect me or my space. "

Wait so you know this protective order wasn't sufficient, and you are considering even less protection?!?

I would be searching for avenues to make things even more restrictive if that were possible. An order to stop contacting you sounds like a fantastic idea.

He's still harassing you. The only reason the situation now may feel a little more normal is that you are comparing it to your previous situation. An ex asking you to drop a protective order is by definition a huge violation of your boundaries. It's not a normal conversation or a sensible request. He's showing you he doesn't feel responsible for his actions.
posted by Tarumba at 10:49 AM on April 11 [7 favorites]


Please call the police and have the protection order enforced. He's repeatedly breaking it, and you shouldn't stand for that.
posted by amusing_name at 10:56 AM on April 11 [7 favorites]


He sounds dangerous and unstable. He should have no access to your kids. If he’s willing to get a buddy to try to scam you who knows what he will try next.
posted by bleep at 10:59 AM on April 11 [6 favorites]


The protective order was granted last August, so it's been less than a year. If he managed to get sober in the aftermath of the arrest, he's been sober for a very short time. He's pressuring you because he's successfully manipulated you in the past, and getting you to rescind is far easier than convincing an impartial judge to withdraw the order.

Your heart feels bad because this is someone you loved very much, someone with whom you share a child. But your head should feel absolutely EXCELLENT about the order and proud of the progress you've made. Document everything. Please speak with your lawyer about all the messages. You must include the ones in which he desires reconciliation -- your utter disinterest in that may be driving the order-dropping wishes, rather than any employment issues. He still wants to control you, and a man with a gun is pretty convincing. Talk to your legal counsel about the ongoing pressure, the sketch employment call, all of it. Consider extending the protective order.

Your ex is still a bad guy, and if he should ever decide to turn that around it will have very little to do with you. Protect yourself and your kid above all.
posted by Iris Gambol at 11:35 AM on April 11 [4 favorites]


I don't want to stop him from getting a good job

You’re not. He did this to himself. He needs to face the consequences of his actions. Otherwise, what’s to stop him from doing it again, if he can just get the protective order dropped simply by asking you? This kind of sounds like enabling behavior on your part, to me.
posted by MexicanYenta at 11:39 AM on April 11 [11 favorites]


Now, most recently, a hiring official called me from a contracting firm for a federal government agency for a security position they are offering him.

As someone who until recently was the person responsible for hiring for a contracting firm for government jobs, this is not how it works. The first question to the applicant is "Do you have a clearance?". If the answer to that question is "No", then the next question is "Is there anything in your background that would prevent you from obtaining a clearance?". If the answer to that question is "Yes", then the next statement is "Thank you very much for your time" and you go on to the next candidate. Even when we were having a hard time finding qualified candidates this was the process. You NEVER want to be the contractor who brought a risky candidate in, that would affect your ability to get any other contracts.
posted by Runes at 11:46 AM on April 11 [35 favorites]


My ex has asked me to consider dropping the protective order because this is hindering him from a lot of jobs he has been applying for due to him having an active protective order preventing him from firearms or moving forward with his clearance...I don't want to stop him from getting a good job, but I also don't want to stand down on this order because I did it for the right reasons.

You aren't stopping him from getting a good job?!?!?!?! His own actions have disqualified him from the extremely narrow class of jobs he wants. Unemployment is at 4% and the vast majority of jobs don't require a security clearance or a firearm. Oh, he doesn't want to do those jobs? He wants to be a sooper-sekrit private spy man? That's nice, I want to be a physical therapist but I didn't study hard enough in college and can't get into physical therapy school, so I work in an office where I have to fill out forms I find boring. You can't always get what you want.
posted by Snarl Furillo at 12:42 PM on April 11 [9 favorites]


If he had been respecting your boundaries, it might be worth considering, but given that he seems not to have actually learned his lesson and changed his thought process, it doesn't seem like a good idea. He has been threatening enough to make you feel unsafe and has seemingly done nothing to try to make amends for that, so no, it's not in any way your fault he is having problems nor is it your responsibility to help him under any reasonable set of moral principles.

Had he done anything to show he is choosing to work on his issues there would be some room for debate on that, but he didn't, so go forth with confidence in your choice to make him deal with his own problems on his own.
posted by wierdo at 12:45 PM on April 11 [2 favorites]


Most good jobs don't require guns or clearance.
posted by rhizome at 12:46 PM on April 11 [7 favorites]


You've received lots of good advice against dropping the order.

Please be aware that he may escalate in aggressive behavior, in that he may/will believe that you did something to him. YOU DID NOTHING TO HIM, but he will/may blame you.

Just be cautious for your safety and surroundings. Stay safe, strong and confident with your actions.
posted by jennstra at 1:23 PM on April 11 [10 favorites]


Oh heck no, do not drop or amend that restraining order. No no nonononono.
posted by sarcasticah at 2:48 PM on April 11 [3 favorites]


But, in the end, does the order really serve much purpose...

In addition to preventing gun ownership, it means that when he CONTINUES to not respect the order, it will be easier for you to extend the order and/or have the court take action against him when things escalate.

He will never not be an abuser.
He will never not be manipulative.
He will never have your interests in mind.
He will never be honest about motives (or probably much of anything else).

When it comes to personal safety, gut instincts are almost never wrong. You are ABSOLUTELY right to keep this order. I wish you and your child the best, take good care of yourselves.
posted by BigHeartedGuy at 3:07 PM on April 11 [6 favorites]


When he only looks for jobs that won't accept him with his record, he won't get a job.

That has nothing to do with you. It's him trying to blame you and keep you in a relationship with him.
posted by AlexiaSky at 4:02 PM on April 11 [10 favorites]


August of 2017, which is effective for two years
BUT, he still will send messages that are inappropriate
The order is to protect you. Do you feel safe? Do you think the order serves a purpose? If so, then take no action.
Has he had a gun in the past? If so, do you feel safe about him getting a weapon back?

The emotional stuff is you being kind towards someone you had a relationship with. This is not a reasonable request.
posted by theora55 at 4:34 PM on April 11 [2 favorites]


Career Progress? Right now, your ex is a scary, dangerous individual and your concern should be that your actual life progresses, which if this guy gets a gun, could be in real doubt. Give him a flyer for Dominoes instead and tell him they're hiring.
posted by Jubey at 5:46 PM on April 11 [4 favorites]


The court issued an order because it agreed that you needed one.
Understand that this was given to you to aid you in upholding your choice to exercise your own rights.
If a friend came to you and said, "I still believe I require/d this order but would like to revoke my own rights and concede to the violators manipulation and guilt tactics," what would you tell them?
I would say a hard No, do not drop the order for his reasons. The order was issued to you for your reasons, so please keep it until a time those reasons for you no longer apply.
posted by OnefortheLast at 7:34 PM on April 11 [3 favorites]


At your advice ive contacted my lawyer and the DV line as well as filed a complaint with the hiring agency.


GOOD FOR YOU!

Say very little to your ex about what you're doing. If he presses you about getting the order dropped again, tell him you talked to your lawyer about it and it's out of your control. Tell him he needs to contact the judge that issued the order. Then go no contact as much as possible. Turn every questionable text and a record of questionable calls or comments to your lawyer. Personally, I think if he continues to push the order I would request to have it extended.

Most good jobs don't require guns or clearance.
posted by rhizome


People qualified for jobs requiring guns or clearance shouldn't be abusers or have problems with impulse control.
posted by BlueHorse at 8:24 PM on April 11 [8 favorites]


but it seems odd to me that someone responsible for federal hiring would call you about him getting or not getting a job because of the order.

This, but also I'm skeptical having the order canceled would help him get a security clearance. The important thing is he is the kind of a person who gets an order, not that he currently has or doesn't have an active one against him.
posted by ctmf at 8:31 PM on April 11 [4 favorites]


Also, I sometimes do hiring, and if someone has obstacles getting a clearance that is SO their problem, not mine, ain't no way I'm spending time calling around to clear it up for them. In fact, that's probably a merit system principles legal minefield, helping someone get a job if I don't do that equally for everyone.

If that person really was from the employer they should stop doing that for their own good. So much so, I doubt they are who they said they are.
posted by ctmf at 8:40 PM on April 11 [7 favorites]


I dealt with something with a dangerous ex (it's in one of my first posts) and felt very guilty about potentially harming his life . One of our friends said to me 'if x thing happens to him, it's not you, it's society deciding that x thing needs to happen to protect people'. This was very useful advice in helping me lose the guilt.

Remember, part of how abuse works is often that abusers make you feel responsible for their abuse of you. Don't feel guilt.
posted by twoplussix at 2:44 AM on April 12 [7 favorites]


also, on the 'he is still manipulative and controlling but I can't put my finger on it' feeling:

Two books I kept thinking about while reading your post-

In Sheep's Clothing: Understanding and Dealing with Manipulative People

Why Does He Do That?: Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men
posted by twoplussix at 2:50 AM on April 12 [4 favorites]


To answer your question, simply read what you yourself wrote. No, it's not a "reasonable request". None of the following are reasonable either (I looked up your original post about obtaining the order): repeatedly showing up unwanted; terrorizing someone in the early hours, attempting to gain access to her home; intimidating her to the point she has to call the police; leaving someone in a continual state of fear and apprehension; repeatedly breaking someone's trust; inappropriate texts; not respecting boundaries; being emotionally abusive; being controlling and manipulative; being physically abusive; harassing and stalking someone; telling someone that she is not allowed have anyone else in her life; putting pressure on the target of the abuse to drop a means of protection.

As you note yourself, it is only since he received the order that he has remained at a distance or not made any "overtly" threatening comments. And instead of thanking heaven that your protective order is preventing someone of whom you are fearful and who has a history of acting out of control when intoxicated from obtaining firearms (someone who a responding officer assessed as "dangerous"), he's managed to guilt you into feeling bad for him. You're not responsible for him not being able to further his career; his own behaviour is (past and present).

I'll repeat your own words back to you: "If I were to drop this, I wouldn't have a leg to stand on in court if something bad were to happen". I will also point out that things have only apparently deescalated since you obtained the protective order. He has tried to control you in the past and he is still trying to control your actions now. I doubt his career is the cause of any concern, rather your actions in getting that order. Keep a record of any inappropriate texts, emails or behaviour (dates, specifics). Also, given how corrosive this type of behaviour is for someone's self-determination, give yourself major credit for dealing with the stress of the legal system, for having the protective instincts for yourself and your daughter to do what you've done to date, and for posing this question here when you're feeling he's wearing you down and that you might wobble.
posted by Lilypod at 7:27 AM on April 12 [8 favorites]


The other thing that is bothering me about this, enough to come back and post again, is the following. He's asking you to drop a protective order, actually more or less specifying outright that it will make it easier for him to get a firearm. In a form of twisted logic, he's almost asking you to say you're okay with him getting a gun. If he did then do anything in that situation, he could argue, as manipulators are prone to do (to himself if nobody else), that you "approved" of it and that it was ultimately your decision. It's a way to continue to avoid taking responsibility and to keep making it all your fault (always). There is something to me so deeply crazy-making in what he's chosen to focus on. He could have put a guilt trip on you about any career under the sun - telesales, retail, Alaskan salmon fishing - but, no, he mentions the order is preventing him from holding a firearm and working in security. So if there's a part of you still worrying which option will make it worse - will a refusal to comply with what he wants escalate his behaviour? - there's the above to consider, whereby doing what he wants doesn't make it any better anyway. It's actually key to the dilemmas he's putting you in: you doing what he wants isn't the solution because you're not the problem.
posted by Lilypod at 8:17 AM on April 12 [10 favorites]


Yes, as a worst-case scenario imagine having a gun pointed at you while being asked why you let this happen.
posted by rhizome at 11:15 AM on April 12 [3 favorites]


Couldn't agree more. I will not be dropping. I think I was asking this question out of fear now that I am thinking and reading all of these responses. It has almost been easier for me in the past to give in rather than have to deal with the ramifications of saying "no" or sticking to my boundries, so I think I am a little worried about how he is going to react once he realizes I'm not budging. But everyone is right in saying this is something I need to enforce for my and others safety.
posted by MamaBee223 at 12:51 PM on April 12 [12 favorites]


Another no, no, live with the consequences and go away.
No one has mentioned domestic violence and the lack of law enforcement response.
I'd guess it gets worse for those who go to the trouble to get a court order and then don't want it used.
Please don't reinforce the stereotypes.
posted by TrishaU at 2:05 PM on April 12 [2 favorites]


I don't know, Mamagee223. I feel like you might want to talk to someone at a women's shelter about preparing for possible escalation on his part.

Part of me feels like you should push back on his breaking the current order, but since he is the way he is, I fear he may not take it well.

I guess what I'm saying is I'm really glad you will be enforcing your boundaries but you are 100% correct that you need to do this safely. You sound extremely strong and rational. I wish you the best of luck and please be careful!
posted by Tarumba at 6:19 AM on April 13 [4 favorites]


It occurred to me that there's also a component of him maintaining a presence in your life. He makes a request, lots of drama, and now you have to expend a lot of energy on him. When you have to co-parent, the person is in your life. Put lots of energy into minimizing his role in your life, while supporting a good parenting relationship with your child. It's really hard; I say this from experience. He has a habit of lying to you. Pay more attention to his actions and less attention to his words. You've got your head on straight.
posted by theora55 at 6:57 AM on April 13 [11 favorites]


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