Just learned SO’s relative has faked his own death
April 7, 2018 9:06 AM Subscribe
*Pseudonyms used)
Got a call at 8:30 a.m. (!) from a collection agency Monday. Was asked, “Who may I speak to regarding the estate of the -late- *Robert Smith - who is the brother of James Smith, my partner of 15 years. Half asleep, I told the collector, “He’s not dead!” The collector apologized, saying she may have the wrong info/name. (more inside).
I later spoke to James and he said a letter was sent to our address regarding the “estate” of Robert Smith, and apparently Rob called James -who cut him off -wanted noth8ng to d9 wit( it. All he heard was that Robert was just “helping a friend”. So the collector was not mistaken.
I assume he uses our phone # and address as his emergency contact. He also knows James is both financially secure and generous to a fault, and Robert may have thought his brother would simply pay off the debts. He’s bailed him out (not literally -yet) many times before. He helps everyone when he can.
Or, Robert is involved in insurance fraud somehow - or both if a friend is involved. Robert does not (likely can’t) work. He’s very intelligent but because he isn’t behaviorably stable, needs medication but has refused it for years. So... he has amassed debt.
I did a Google search - simply faking ones own death ‘pseudosuicide’ is the term I believe, is not a crime. Problems arise in the reasons one thinks faking death is a good idea, most of which are illegal. I doubt taking such effort to get $from your brother is illegal, too.
I don’t have proof about his plans, other than knowing him for 15 years.
I am caught in an ethical dilemma. I’m not “family” in the formal sense which doesn’t mean much to us. I care deeply about James who is moving to another country in June and I don’t want to complicate his life with possible legal involvement, deposition, etc.
That said, I think I have an obligation to speak up to prevent fraud before it happens. I dislike Robert on every level, so I’m bringing the question here so my bias doesn’t get in my way. Robert is frightening and threatening when we’re alone. But he needs help and meds, not a conviction. But I don’t have the power to make that happen. I do feel obligated as one of my responsibilities as a citizen to say something. Perhaps it will stop him from doing anything if he hasn’t already.
I’d be complicit if I just let it go, and I’d disrupt everything if I alert the appropriate folks. James will not say anything. He wants nothing to do with it. Robert already hates me (?) so it’s reasonable for me to be the bad guy, but I’ll be living alone and he has a history of violence, bar fights are all I know about.
So I don’t know what to do. I know the lawful thing to do... but is that the right thing to? It is, but if jailed he will come out with better scams and more anger.
I’m uncomfortable knowing about someone lying about his death. I tried to find an obit, but his name and location is so common it was useless.
Maybe all he’s done is have someone tell his creditors that he died. No matter what I do it will hurt someone.
I later spoke to James and he said a letter was sent to our address regarding the “estate” of Robert Smith, and apparently Rob called James -who cut him off -wanted noth8ng to d9 wit( it. All he heard was that Robert was just “helping a friend”. So the collector was not mistaken.
I assume he uses our phone # and address as his emergency contact. He also knows James is both financially secure and generous to a fault, and Robert may have thought his brother would simply pay off the debts. He’s bailed him out (not literally -yet) many times before. He helps everyone when he can.
Or, Robert is involved in insurance fraud somehow - or both if a friend is involved. Robert does not (likely can’t) work. He’s very intelligent but because he isn’t behaviorably stable, needs medication but has refused it for years. So... he has amassed debt.
I did a Google search - simply faking ones own death ‘pseudosuicide’ is the term I believe, is not a crime. Problems arise in the reasons one thinks faking death is a good idea, most of which are illegal. I doubt taking such effort to get $from your brother is illegal, too.
I don’t have proof about his plans, other than knowing him for 15 years.
I am caught in an ethical dilemma. I’m not “family” in the formal sense which doesn’t mean much to us. I care deeply about James who is moving to another country in June and I don’t want to complicate his life with possible legal involvement, deposition, etc.
That said, I think I have an obligation to speak up to prevent fraud before it happens. I dislike Robert on every level, so I’m bringing the question here so my bias doesn’t get in my way. Robert is frightening and threatening when we’re alone. But he needs help and meds, not a conviction. But I don’t have the power to make that happen. I do feel obligated as one of my responsibilities as a citizen to say something. Perhaps it will stop him from doing anything if he hasn’t already.
I’d be complicit if I just let it go, and I’d disrupt everything if I alert the appropriate folks. James will not say anything. He wants nothing to do with it. Robert already hates me (?) so it’s reasonable for me to be the bad guy, but I’ll be living alone and he has a history of violence, bar fights are all I know about.
So I don’t know what to do. I know the lawful thing to do... but is that the right thing to? It is, but if jailed he will come out with better scams and more anger.
I’m uncomfortable knowing about someone lying about his death. I tried to find an obit, but his name and location is so common it was useless.
Maybe all he’s done is have someone tell his creditors that he died. No matter what I do it will hurt someone.
Best answer: I'm not sure what your question is here, but if it's a simple: "what do I need to do?" the answer is:
Nothing.
No more googling obituaries,
No more making assumptions about what Robert may or may not have done based off a inquiry from a debt collector,
No more thinking you have some legal obligation to...(im not sure what, call the cops and say you think someone's faked their death?)
If James wants to investigate more that's on him, not you. James isn't complicit in whatever scam (if it is that) Robert is running since he isn't actively helping him and neither of you have actual knowledge of what's happening.
If someone asks, then the simple truth of "as far as I know he is still alive but I am estranged from him and cannot provide more information. Please do not contact me again" is enough.
posted by Karaage at 9:17 AM on April 7, 2018 [37 favorites]
Nothing.
No more googling obituaries,
No more making assumptions about what Robert may or may not have done based off a inquiry from a debt collector,
No more thinking you have some legal obligation to...(im not sure what, call the cops and say you think someone's faked their death?)
If James wants to investigate more that's on him, not you. James isn't complicit in whatever scam (if it is that) Robert is running since he isn't actively helping him and neither of you have actual knowledge of what's happening.
If someone asks, then the simple truth of "as far as I know he is still alive but I am estranged from him and cannot provide more information. Please do not contact me again" is enough.
posted by Karaage at 9:17 AM on April 7, 2018 [37 favorites]
Debt collectors are notoriously shady. If they call you, disavow all knowledge of this person entirely (I Do Not Know This Person - Stop Calling Me) and ask to be put on their Do Nort Call list.
You are freaking out about nothing.
posted by jbenben at 9:18 AM on April 7, 2018 [15 favorites]
You are freaking out about nothing.
posted by jbenben at 9:18 AM on April 7, 2018 [15 favorites]
Best answer: I think it's too strong to say you are freaking out about nothing, I understand why this is distressing, but I agree that it would be best to separate yourself from this emotionally/psychologically. If I am tracking, your partner is leaving for an extended period abroad, so your connection to Robert will be even more attenuated shortly. There's no point getting involved in a legal situation involving your (abroad) (former?) partner's brother.
posted by Mid at 9:28 AM on April 7, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by Mid at 9:28 AM on April 7, 2018 [4 favorites]
Best answer: anyone calls you about this just say "I have no information about him."
It is not your responsibility to speak up to anyone beyond telling your SO what happened. You are not "complicit" in anything; this is literally not your business.
posted by fingersandtoes at 9:29 AM on April 7, 2018 [8 favorites]
It is not your responsibility to speak up to anyone beyond telling your SO what happened. You are not "complicit" in anything; this is literally not your business.
posted by fingersandtoes at 9:29 AM on April 7, 2018 [8 favorites]
Best answer: I should have added: you don't have enough information to have an "obligation" to come forward to anybody. All you know is that some bill collector is saying that he died, but who knows why they are saying that - could be a mistake, could be a scam by anybody, who knows. You are not obligated to investigate rando weirdness like this.
posted by Mid at 9:30 AM on April 7, 2018 [11 favorites]
posted by Mid at 9:30 AM on April 7, 2018 [11 favorites]
Best answer: I do feel obligated as one of my responsibilities as a citizen to say something.
I suspect you would not feel this way if this was a random stranger. Fact is, you resent the hell out of this guy and the fact that he's made his shenanigans your business, and you don't want him to get away with this - but your impulse to get the hammer brought down on him seems like borrowing trouble.
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:51 AM on April 7, 2018 [32 favorites]
I suspect you would not feel this way if this was a random stranger. Fact is, you resent the hell out of this guy and the fact that he's made his shenanigans your business, and you don't want him to get away with this - but your impulse to get the hammer brought down on him seems like borrowing trouble.
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:51 AM on April 7, 2018 [32 favorites]
Best answer: I agree that you are not freaking out about what to do in the event that the brother of your SO has faked his own death, especially because there is nothing you can reasonably do about it. If you report it, it will involve James against his wishes. And report it to who? You have no evidence and no victim of a hypothetical crime. There is literally nothing to do.
But people don’t usually freak out about nothing. So assuming you’re freaking out about something that feels very important to you, personally, I’m going to gently ask if this might be more about James leaving?
I think it’s worth meditating on. This would be a way of keeping you intimately involved in James’ life in a way that emphasizes closeness at a time when he is apparently preparing to the leave the country.
I don’t know what your plans as a couple are, or whether you’re going with him, but my first thought is that this might be anxiety about your relationship in a time of change.
posted by schadenfrau at 10:32 AM on April 7, 2018 [5 favorites]
But people don’t usually freak out about nothing. So assuming you’re freaking out about something that feels very important to you, personally, I’m going to gently ask if this might be more about James leaving?
I think it’s worth meditating on. This would be a way of keeping you intimately involved in James’ life in a way that emphasizes closeness at a time when he is apparently preparing to the leave the country.
I don’t know what your plans as a couple are, or whether you’re going with him, but my first thought is that this might be anxiety about your relationship in a time of change.
posted by schadenfrau at 10:32 AM on April 7, 2018 [5 favorites]
Debt collectors can be scummy and scammy. You know extremely little about anything in this situation, it's a ton of speculation -- just let it go. If debt collectors call say "Don't know them, bye" and hang up.
posted by so fucking future at 10:48 AM on April 7, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by so fucking future at 10:48 AM on April 7, 2018 [1 favorite]
This is not your monkey and this is not your rodeo. This is literally not your problem and has nothing to do with you. Your partner doesn't have legal culpability for a 3rd party announcing his own death.
posted by DarlingBri at 10:48 AM on April 7, 2018 [11 favorites]
posted by DarlingBri at 10:48 AM on April 7, 2018 [11 favorites]
I feel the same way about talking to debt collectors regarding someone else's debt as some feel about talking to the police - nothing you say can help *you.* I think they prey on a sense of schadenfreude and a confused sense of collective responsibility to get relative strangers to help do their job for them.
I say this as a person who, several years ago, almost literally woke up walking across the street to tell a neighbor, who I did not really know, that she needed to call a company about a debt. I just had that sudden epiphany that I was risking some kind of confrontation or at least an awkward situation on behalf of someone I had zero obligation to.
And this was before I knew more about these agencies and realize that they will consider it a win if they can bully or guilt someone, anyone, into paying a bill or part of a bill. The epitome of this shittiness is when they harass the children or other relatives of dead people into paying off their unsecured debts (if there is an estate with assets, that estate should by rights pay those bills*; I'm talking about harassing relatives into coming out of pocket to pay beyond what the estate can).
I just say "the person you're calling about doesn't live here; I don't know anything about what you're calling about. Don't call back." And hang up.
*unless they're payday lenders, in which case they should get stuffed...
posted by randomkeystrike at 11:15 AM on April 7, 2018 [8 favorites]
I say this as a person who, several years ago, almost literally woke up walking across the street to tell a neighbor, who I did not really know, that she needed to call a company about a debt. I just had that sudden epiphany that I was risking some kind of confrontation or at least an awkward situation on behalf of someone I had zero obligation to.
And this was before I knew more about these agencies and realize that they will consider it a win if they can bully or guilt someone, anyone, into paying a bill or part of a bill. The epitome of this shittiness is when they harass the children or other relatives of dead people into paying off their unsecured debts (if there is an estate with assets, that estate should by rights pay those bills*; I'm talking about harassing relatives into coming out of pocket to pay beyond what the estate can).
I just say "the person you're calling about doesn't live here; I don't know anything about what you're calling about. Don't call back." And hang up.
*unless they're payday lenders, in which case they should get stuffed...
posted by randomkeystrike at 11:15 AM on April 7, 2018 [8 favorites]
If Robert has some form of mental illness, do nothing. People who are pretty mentally ill and untreated have enough trouble. I would not enable him or engage in any illegal activity to assist him. If you get calls, give the bare minimum of facts Robert does not live here and this is not a valid number for him. Do not call again..
By the way, if they continue to call, you might be able to get compensation.
posted by theora55 at 1:25 PM on April 7, 2018
By the way, if they continue to call, you might be able to get compensation.
posted by theora55 at 1:25 PM on April 7, 2018
I agree with the advice above. Your obligation in this situation is to your SO, who has made it clear he does not want to get involved. Going against his wishes will just cause him unnecessary drama and could damage your relationship and his trust that you have his back. This goes double if the debt-collection company is shady, as so many of them are.
If anyone calls again, say something along the lines of "I have no information to give you about this person. Do not call here again." Also, if any more mail comes to you mark "not at this address" on the envelope and return to sender.
posted by rpfields at 1:36 PM on April 7, 2018
If anyone calls again, say something along the lines of "I have no information to give you about this person. Do not call here again." Also, if any more mail comes to you mark "not at this address" on the envelope and return to sender.
posted by rpfields at 1:36 PM on April 7, 2018
Faking one's death is very hard to do long-term so if this is something Robert is doing it's probably not going to work out in the end, which means - not your problem - not James's problem. This is Robert's problem and Robert will have to deal with the consequences.
To give you a little peace of mind about the faked death aspect of this, I suggest listening to this episode of the podcast Criminal. You'll find that people rarely get away with such a scam.
posted by brookeb at 2:45 PM on April 7, 2018
To give you a little peace of mind about the faked death aspect of this, I suggest listening to this episode of the podcast Criminal. You'll find that people rarely get away with such a scam.
posted by brookeb at 2:45 PM on April 7, 2018
This is not your problem. You have no obligation to help Robert with his bullshit. You also have no obligation to assist debt collectors do their job. You can opt out of this entirely. Tell the debt collectors “I’m sorry, I can’t help you”. And tell Robert that you don’t want to be involved or, better, let James deal with his own brother.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 3:03 PM on April 7, 2018
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 3:03 PM on April 7, 2018
It doesn't take Robert having deliberately given them James' contact info, here, or anything to do with insurance fraud, for them to be contacting you. If James has helped Robert out before, there's a pretty good chance his contact information is associated with not just that debt but others, and it might even appear on Robert's credit report. I think you're assuming a bigger scheme than probably exists, here. It's entirely possible that Robert told a debt collector that he was someone else and that Robert was dead during a phone call to try to get them to stop calling, say, but I would not jump to assuming that anything more happened than that. Or even that he just failed to respond to phone calls and letters so often that the debt collector is choosing to act like he's dead until someone gives them better info. I'd stay out of it unless you get evidence that Robert's actually doing more wrong, here, than trying to get his debt collectors to stop calling.
posted by Sequence at 3:11 PM on April 7, 2018
posted by Sequence at 3:11 PM on April 7, 2018
Response by poster: I cannot thank all of you enough. I’m so grateful. I never do talk to debt collectors (had one calling our house for two years looking for Walter. No Walter here.
The caller woke me up out of a deep sleep so I was not really awake. My main focus was being ticked that she called so bloody early. I thought they are supposed to wait until after 9:00 am. She didn’t identify herself as a collector, she said she was with (company) that meant nothing. She then went on to say she was calling about “the late RS’s estate” and debts owed from the estate. I was caught off guard. I cant remember the last t8me this happened. It’s been at least a couple of years.
I so appreciate the words of caution.
Showbiz_liz: point taken re a stranger... I think. If I saw a stranger being obviously scammed, I’d like to think I wouldn’t let it happen. But I think I understand what you mean.
DarlingBri: in a nutshell, you’re spot on. I love your wording.
Theora55: He is absolutely mentally ill. He frightens me, but he can function better with treatment and meds. James is the only one in the family who allows him to spend the night on occasion. He takes Robert to work with him because he won’t have R alone with me. When we met we got on so well... made cds for each other having shared favorites... i wish he would get help.
Schadenfrau: Bingo. But Robert puts me on edge any time he’s near me or James. He is so bubbly and polite with James and then looks at me as if he wants to bite my face off and worse.
I am stressed about James leaving, absolutely. I love him. He’s my best friend. We used to be a couple, he’s the love of my life but health issues changed me a lot. He hasn’t shut the door completely; I want him to be happy. He’s an amazing human. I think I reacted as I did because I consider Robert to be a volatile likely dangerous person.
The family, really, enables him by either keeping distance or putting blinders on. But as nearly all of you said - not my issue.
Sequence: solid, clear, sound advice.
I dont think I overreacted, because I checked myself and came here before that could happen. So thankful. The whole issue was odd. I thought people faked their own deaths in mysteries and crime shows.
Many many thanks, everyone. m
posted by misondre at 6:58 PM on April 7, 2018 [1 favorite]
The caller woke me up out of a deep sleep so I was not really awake. My main focus was being ticked that she called so bloody early. I thought they are supposed to wait until after 9:00 am. She didn’t identify herself as a collector, she said she was with (company) that meant nothing. She then went on to say she was calling about “the late RS’s estate” and debts owed from the estate. I was caught off guard. I cant remember the last t8me this happened. It’s been at least a couple of years.
I so appreciate the words of caution.
Showbiz_liz: point taken re a stranger... I think. If I saw a stranger being obviously scammed, I’d like to think I wouldn’t let it happen. But I think I understand what you mean.
DarlingBri: in a nutshell, you’re spot on. I love your wording.
Theora55: He is absolutely mentally ill. He frightens me, but he can function better with treatment and meds. James is the only one in the family who allows him to spend the night on occasion. He takes Robert to work with him because he won’t have R alone with me. When we met we got on so well... made cds for each other having shared favorites... i wish he would get help.
Schadenfrau: Bingo. But Robert puts me on edge any time he’s near me or James. He is so bubbly and polite with James and then looks at me as if he wants to bite my face off and worse.
I am stressed about James leaving, absolutely. I love him. He’s my best friend. We used to be a couple, he’s the love of my life but health issues changed me a lot. He hasn’t shut the door completely; I want him to be happy. He’s an amazing human. I think I reacted as I did because I consider Robert to be a volatile likely dangerous person.
The family, really, enables him by either keeping distance or putting blinders on. But as nearly all of you said - not my issue.
Sequence: solid, clear, sound advice.
I dont think I overreacted, because I checked myself and came here before that could happen. So thankful. The whole issue was odd. I thought people faked their own deaths in mysteries and crime shows.
Many many thanks, everyone. m
posted by misondre at 6:58 PM on April 7, 2018 [1 favorite]
Just to kick your mind off that track, unless James has co-signed loans with Rob, James is not responsible for paying Rob's debt after his passing, so if Rob is doing this to somehow scam James, he's going about it all wrong.
Debt collectors often lie, so ignore them and tell them that they may not communicate with you regarding this or any similar debt by any means. If they then send you anything but legitimate service of process, that's a second FDCPA violation. (The lie that James is responsible for paying Rob's debt being the first) Document all communication, send a certified letter stating same, and you can make decent money for your inconvenience.
posted by wierdo at 9:45 PM on April 7, 2018 [4 favorites]
Debt collectors often lie, so ignore them and tell them that they may not communicate with you regarding this or any similar debt by any means. If they then send you anything but legitimate service of process, that's a second FDCPA violation. (The lie that James is responsible for paying Rob's debt being the first) Document all communication, send a certified letter stating same, and you can make decent money for your inconvenience.
posted by wierdo at 9:45 PM on April 7, 2018 [4 favorites]
For what it's worth, I totally understand the impulse to momentarily seize on this situation being a potential comeuppance for Robert! You're fine. That waking-in-the-morning thing has to be a trick to get people off guard.
A PI once asked me about a guy down in Mexico that I later found out they thought was Olivia Newton-John's partner who had maybe faked his own death, weirdest celebrity sighting ever
posted by fingersandtoes at 7:24 AM on April 8, 2018
A PI once asked me about a guy down in Mexico that I later found out they thought was Olivia Newton-John's partner who had maybe faked his own death, weirdest celebrity sighting ever
posted by fingersandtoes at 7:24 AM on April 8, 2018
For what it's worth, a debt collector called me and many of my relatives about my grandmother's supposed debts. They tried all of our phones over the course of several months, including cell phones. She did not owe any debt. Never did. There are some people that will try to charge unsuspecting, grieving families for bogus things like ambulance bills, bypassing the estate. It obviously doesn't sound like this is what is happening here, but I'll add to the chorus in case it's helpful for others later on: Do not engage with these people, you owe nothing to them.
posted by puellaeterna at 11:35 AM on April 9, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by puellaeterna at 11:35 AM on April 9, 2018 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 9:11 AM on April 7, 2018 [4 favorites]