Now my relationship is over, how can I avoid repeating past mistakes?
February 24, 2018 9:59 AM Subscribe
My LDR boyfriend has left me in a not dissimilar way to a previous ex. I am now scared of eternally repeating patterns with partners and would like advice on how I can find someone more suited for me in future.
Some of you will be familiar with my past threads about my now ex LDR boyfriend. Quick summary: He had a short emotional affair last Summer, which I forgave him for. I encouraged him to go to counselling after & he finally got an appointment last month. The counsellor encouraged him to re-evaluate his life & this lead to him breaking up via email (even though I had flights booked to see him in just 1 week). He blamed me, saying 'If you hadn't encouraged me to go to counselling, it might never have come to his.' Aside from working through the heartbreak, I want to know how I can use this experience to do better in future (unless its all luck?):
- His communication issues: my ex is a people pleaser. This means that whenever we would talk about even a small issue, he would just nod and say monosyllabic words/not be able to speak at all. This meant that 90% of the time I felt I was talking at him. During our break up call, he said that when he was looking into my eyes he felt he couldn't bring up anything negative/issues of his own. Even when I said 'if there is ever anything in the relationship you want to talk about then let me know' - he would smile and say he would, the last time he did this was last month. Apparently he hated visiting me where I live now because city life overwhelms him. I had no clue, as he always told me he had a great time. Ultimately I feel he lead me to believe he was happy many times when he was not.
When he broke it off he ranted about things that had bothered him since November last year. 'What did you mean when you said X, Y and Z?' - things he had been stewing about but never raised with me or given me a chance to fix. A previous ex did the exact same thing when we broke up. How on earth can I avoid the sort of person that does this early on?
My possible communication issue: There were a few times when I raised an issue with my boyfriend in the evening. I think I did this a few months ago and remember him saying 'I wish you wouldn't bring these things up at night when I'm tired after work.' I suppose it is because I'm a night owl. Now, having forgotten this exchange a few months later, I opened up a conversation about where he saw us ending up when the LDR ended in a few months. It was the weekend, we were having drinks & were feeling relaxed. Immediately he froze saying 'I really think we should discuss this another time - maybe tomorrow.' However he also admitted during a break up call that he probably would never have raised it of his own accord unless I had. How do I broach talks about things in future in a better way?
Some of you will be familiar with my past threads about my now ex LDR boyfriend. Quick summary: He had a short emotional affair last Summer, which I forgave him for. I encouraged him to go to counselling after & he finally got an appointment last month. The counsellor encouraged him to re-evaluate his life & this lead to him breaking up via email (even though I had flights booked to see him in just 1 week). He blamed me, saying 'If you hadn't encouraged me to go to counselling, it might never have come to his.' Aside from working through the heartbreak, I want to know how I can use this experience to do better in future (unless its all luck?):
- His communication issues: my ex is a people pleaser. This means that whenever we would talk about even a small issue, he would just nod and say monosyllabic words/not be able to speak at all. This meant that 90% of the time I felt I was talking at him. During our break up call, he said that when he was looking into my eyes he felt he couldn't bring up anything negative/issues of his own. Even when I said 'if there is ever anything in the relationship you want to talk about then let me know' - he would smile and say he would, the last time he did this was last month. Apparently he hated visiting me where I live now because city life overwhelms him. I had no clue, as he always told me he had a great time. Ultimately I feel he lead me to believe he was happy many times when he was not.
When he broke it off he ranted about things that had bothered him since November last year. 'What did you mean when you said X, Y and Z?' - things he had been stewing about but never raised with me or given me a chance to fix. A previous ex did the exact same thing when we broke up. How on earth can I avoid the sort of person that does this early on?
My possible communication issue: There were a few times when I raised an issue with my boyfriend in the evening. I think I did this a few months ago and remember him saying 'I wish you wouldn't bring these things up at night when I'm tired after work.' I suppose it is because I'm a night owl. Now, having forgotten this exchange a few months later, I opened up a conversation about where he saw us ending up when the LDR ended in a few months. It was the weekend, we were having drinks & were feeling relaxed. Immediately he froze saying 'I really think we should discuss this another time - maybe tomorrow.' However he also admitted during a break up call that he probably would never have raised it of his own accord unless I had. How do I broach talks about things in future in a better way?
I hope this truly addresses your question. In two previous questions at least, people in this community told you flat-out that he didn’t seem enthused and that you might be steamrolling him.
In the future, pay attention to what your boyfriend is doing, the enthusiasm he is showing, and what is actually happening in the relationship. I feel like you set out a whole bunch of concrete expectations based on some very mild conversations, and ignored a lot of information that was telling you he didn’t want to take all these steps with you. He should have been clearer, but you should have also slowed down.
So: Go slow, listen, observe, don’t build castles in the sky, let the other person take the lead.
posted by warriorqueen at 10:13 AM on February 24, 2018 [27 favorites]
In the future, pay attention to what your boyfriend is doing, the enthusiasm he is showing, and what is actually happening in the relationship. I feel like you set out a whole bunch of concrete expectations based on some very mild conversations, and ignored a lot of information that was telling you he didn’t want to take all these steps with you. He should have been clearer, but you should have also slowed down.
So: Go slow, listen, observe, don’t build castles in the sky, let the other person take the lead.
posted by warriorqueen at 10:13 AM on February 24, 2018 [27 favorites]
Have you ever been the person who does the breaking up? I never had until I did, and my attitude toward partnering changed quite a bit after I finally did, and it enabled me to raise my standards for what an acceptable relationship is.
Before this I was always getting into battles of wills (probably with myself, mostly) trying to force the relationship to work over long periods, having extended discussions/arguments about the particular details in which things aren't working.
I'm not sure about the author's writing in general, but the "Fuck Yes" blog post is a common suggestion here (it may have come up in your previous threads) and provides me with a spark of self-respect when I refer to it from time to time.
posted by rhizome at 10:45 AM on February 24, 2018 [8 favorites]
Before this I was always getting into battles of wills (probably with myself, mostly) trying to force the relationship to work over long periods, having extended discussions/arguments about the particular details in which things aren't working.
I'm not sure about the author's writing in general, but the "Fuck Yes" blog post is a common suggestion here (it may have come up in your previous threads) and provides me with a spark of self-respect when I refer to it from time to time.
posted by rhizome at 10:45 AM on February 24, 2018 [8 favorites]
it sounds like you spent the whole relationship trying to mash two puzzle pieces together that were never going to fit. It's fine, we have all done this! He sounds like a passive weirdo who would sort of half go along with whatever you wanted because he didn't want to make any effort to actually communicate his feelings to you. In the future, just know that things should feel a little easier than this. Relationships need two people actively participating. You can't make a relationship work through sheer force of will.
posted by cakelite at 10:53 AM on February 24, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by cakelite at 10:53 AM on February 24, 2018 [3 favorites]
Best answer: maybe I should have slowed down...I was feeling fearful that he wasn't serious about me.
Yes, an appropriate response to someone not being into you is NOT to quadruple down. Clutching someone in a death grip is not how you make them like you more or how you make them stay. You don't get to control how they feel about you, there is no One Weird Trick, no love spell, no blackmail that will force someone's feelings. Eventually the truth is going to come out; it's up to you whether you think whatever time you can buy with denial is worth it.
Dating is a process of elimination, actually multiple processes of elimination: in the beginning you spend a lot of time getting to know each other, first pretty superficially and then learning more about values, goals, and ideals. You should know before the first date what your top-level requirements and dealbreakers are and you should walk the minute you recognize that he cannot meet the requirements or contains a dealbreaker.
Then comes the sort of early-serious dating phase that - if you're looking for a serious relationship - should be a process of discovery, it should be your time of due diligence to see if these two individual people are a good match. Statistically, they won't be. You should move on when that becomes obvious.
It should not be a secret that you are looking for a serious relationship, and you can be honest about that without being scary intense, just say "I'm at the point in my life that I'm looking for the right person to settle down with. I'm not just here to have fun or occupy my time or fit in with my friends, I'm not looking for a casual thing. If you are, we're not a match, but I wish you the best of luck." If this is a person looking for a long term relationship, you continue on with your due diligence: what are his goals, what are his values, do they align with yours? Does he show evidence of wanting to be - and understanding himself well enough, as in he is a grown-ass adult who knows what feelings are and has introspected himself occasionally, so that he has the actual skills to be - an excellent partner, an enthusiastic parent, an ethical careerperson, whatever else features you want in a partner?
If no, you leave. Don't waste anymore time on someone who cannot cross the finish line with you because they won't ever cross the finish line with you, there's no point. Don't waste your time or his, don't try to "buy" time for him to change his mind. Don't be with someone who needs to change his mind about you, that's not how it works. You can't just grab someone and refuse to let them go until they love you.
Don't just take people blindly at their word; take them at their actions and then see if the words match.
And I'm not asking this question for you to answer here, because AskMe isn't for back and forth, but to buy a notebook or something and start writing about this to yourself: do you think you had this issue in your last relationships because you're just focused on not being alone, on having some kind of evidence of approval/worth from a man, any man? Do you fear you cannot demand quality from a man because you don't deserve it? This is a thing that women are trained for from birth, and a lot of us are additionally abused into it along the way, and we become amorphous blobs of need that will just fill any available container even if it's a rusty old can. You have sounded in these questions like someone who needs to take some time off from dating and do some therapy or a CBT workbook and maybe look into medication, whatever work it takes to learn to control your anxiety and build yourself up until you believe you deserve good things (and know what good things even are!), so that you are not so eager to insist a turd is gold just because it has some glitter in it.
Ask yourself why, when someone treats you so badly that the internet overwhelmingly votes for you to leave the relationship, you instead forge on to the next Official Relationship Goal? What were you going to win for accomplishing that?
It seems like you are frightened by the idea of being alone, and that you fear time alone will be wasted, but you can't be whole in a relationship until you can be whole on your own and every shitty relationship you have wastes so much more of your time and energy. But in 18 months - the time it would take to have two more mediocre relationships with men who think having a girlfriend seems pretty cool as long as they don't ever have to do any thinking, and then leave you when they're ready to be with someone they haven't treated like old clothes - you could be in *such* a better emotional space, prepared to enforce the kind of boundaries that really good men, adult thinking men, want and need in a partner.
Good partners, the kind that treat you well and stay, don't want you to be an amorphous blob; they want you to have your own personal shape and dimensions. They want you to want THEM to have a personal shape and dimensions; they don't want to be a doll that you pose in boyfriend shapes.
Take some time off and do some work on yourself. Then only date men who have taken the time and done work on themselves. Then both of you can keep working, because this is a lifelong thing, using the skills you already have and the ones you develop together over time.
posted by Lyn Never at 11:04 AM on February 24, 2018 [35 favorites]
Yes, an appropriate response to someone not being into you is NOT to quadruple down. Clutching someone in a death grip is not how you make them like you more or how you make them stay. You don't get to control how they feel about you, there is no One Weird Trick, no love spell, no blackmail that will force someone's feelings. Eventually the truth is going to come out; it's up to you whether you think whatever time you can buy with denial is worth it.
Dating is a process of elimination, actually multiple processes of elimination: in the beginning you spend a lot of time getting to know each other, first pretty superficially and then learning more about values, goals, and ideals. You should know before the first date what your top-level requirements and dealbreakers are and you should walk the minute you recognize that he cannot meet the requirements or contains a dealbreaker.
Then comes the sort of early-serious dating phase that - if you're looking for a serious relationship - should be a process of discovery, it should be your time of due diligence to see if these two individual people are a good match. Statistically, they won't be. You should move on when that becomes obvious.
It should not be a secret that you are looking for a serious relationship, and you can be honest about that without being scary intense, just say "I'm at the point in my life that I'm looking for the right person to settle down with. I'm not just here to have fun or occupy my time or fit in with my friends, I'm not looking for a casual thing. If you are, we're not a match, but I wish you the best of luck." If this is a person looking for a long term relationship, you continue on with your due diligence: what are his goals, what are his values, do they align with yours? Does he show evidence of wanting to be - and understanding himself well enough, as in he is a grown-ass adult who knows what feelings are and has introspected himself occasionally, so that he has the actual skills to be - an excellent partner, an enthusiastic parent, an ethical careerperson, whatever else features you want in a partner?
If no, you leave. Don't waste anymore time on someone who cannot cross the finish line with you because they won't ever cross the finish line with you, there's no point. Don't waste your time or his, don't try to "buy" time for him to change his mind. Don't be with someone who needs to change his mind about you, that's not how it works. You can't just grab someone and refuse to let them go until they love you.
Don't just take people blindly at their word; take them at their actions and then see if the words match.
And I'm not asking this question for you to answer here, because AskMe isn't for back and forth, but to buy a notebook or something and start writing about this to yourself: do you think you had this issue in your last relationships because you're just focused on not being alone, on having some kind of evidence of approval/worth from a man, any man? Do you fear you cannot demand quality from a man because you don't deserve it? This is a thing that women are trained for from birth, and a lot of us are additionally abused into it along the way, and we become amorphous blobs of need that will just fill any available container even if it's a rusty old can. You have sounded in these questions like someone who needs to take some time off from dating and do some therapy or a CBT workbook and maybe look into medication, whatever work it takes to learn to control your anxiety and build yourself up until you believe you deserve good things (and know what good things even are!), so that you are not so eager to insist a turd is gold just because it has some glitter in it.
Ask yourself why, when someone treats you so badly that the internet overwhelmingly votes for you to leave the relationship, you instead forge on to the next Official Relationship Goal? What were you going to win for accomplishing that?
It seems like you are frightened by the idea of being alone, and that you fear time alone will be wasted, but you can't be whole in a relationship until you can be whole on your own and every shitty relationship you have wastes so much more of your time and energy. But in 18 months - the time it would take to have two more mediocre relationships with men who think having a girlfriend seems pretty cool as long as they don't ever have to do any thinking, and then leave you when they're ready to be with someone they haven't treated like old clothes - you could be in *such* a better emotional space, prepared to enforce the kind of boundaries that really good men, adult thinking men, want and need in a partner.
Good partners, the kind that treat you well and stay, don't want you to be an amorphous blob; they want you to have your own personal shape and dimensions. They want you to want THEM to have a personal shape and dimensions; they don't want to be a doll that you pose in boyfriend shapes.
Take some time off and do some work on yourself. Then only date men who have taken the time and done work on themselves. Then both of you can keep working, because this is a lifelong thing, using the skills you already have and the ones you develop together over time.
posted by Lyn Never at 11:04 AM on February 24, 2018 [35 favorites]
Mod note: Couple comments deleted. Willow251, AskMe isn't a place for processing or back-and-forth discussion.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 11:05 AM on February 24, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 11:05 AM on February 24, 2018 [2 favorites]
I think you probably had some indication, if not conscious notice, that he was backing off as time went by. I have a motto that I never follow: break up as soon as the idea occurs to you, as soon as you question the relationship. Now, you don't have to be that harsh, but take stock of your relationship and have some boundaries that you pay attention to. Pay attention to yourself and what you require from an SO, and break up if it's not happening. Not "if I can't figure out how to change myself or force them to behave in a certain way." Have an idea of "too much work," so that when a relationship passes that mark you can just cleanly break up without a bunch of extended drama.
posted by rhizome at 11:05 AM on February 24, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by rhizome at 11:05 AM on February 24, 2018 [1 favorite]
Yeah, there is nothing wrong with a two- or three-strikes model in a dating relationship, and there's nothing wrong with being a little bit skeptical. You do not have to assume absolute good faith from the other person (especially their words, which are cheap, versus actions which require investment), because honestly a lot of people are really manipulative and there's a certain model of masculinity that is predicated on doing the absolute least amount of work necessary to get whatever result is desired - if you haven't dated that guy, which I'm pretty sure you just did, you've probably worked with and/or gone to school with some - and it's considered a "win" to sucker the other person into doing all the work. It's okay to expect some proof from potential partners that they're not doing that, and it's okay to remain skeptical past the initial effort stage to see what happens to their actions when they settle in.
Try to avoid getting so caught up in what he said before versus what he's saying now. It's all a sort of allegory, and he's really just saying he doesn't want to do the thing he was doing before, as in he doesn't want to be in this relationship. That's not to say that someone's first experiences of self-awareness (brought on maybe by therapy, maybe a combo of therapy and life) can't turn them from a city person to a country person or whatever, but I think ultimately he's just saying he doesn't want to be where you are or he doesn't want to be the person he was before or all of the above. It sucks when a partner hits the growth spurt you so badly wanted them to have and it requires them not being with you anymore to go through it, but that may very well be what happened here. Don't take him so literally, especially his words.
posted by Lyn Never at 11:35 AM on February 24, 2018 [1 favorite]
Try to avoid getting so caught up in what he said before versus what he's saying now. It's all a sort of allegory, and he's really just saying he doesn't want to do the thing he was doing before, as in he doesn't want to be in this relationship. That's not to say that someone's first experiences of self-awareness (brought on maybe by therapy, maybe a combo of therapy and life) can't turn them from a city person to a country person or whatever, but I think ultimately he's just saying he doesn't want to be where you are or he doesn't want to be the person he was before or all of the above. It sucks when a partner hits the growth spurt you so badly wanted them to have and it requires them not being with you anymore to go through it, but that may very well be what happened here. Don't take him so literally, especially his words.
posted by Lyn Never at 11:35 AM on February 24, 2018 [1 favorite]
yeah, it's nothing to do with the hobbies and interests and you can absolutely find passive twerps in art galleries just as readily as you can find them parasailing or wherever. A set of hobbies isn't a type of person. Refusal to express an opinion or elaborate a vague answer is the warning sign you need to watch out for. the tricky part is distinguishing this from early nervous politeness, but if it persists past a few dates, it's likely to be a problem.
the other sign is need for caretaking -- if you find yourself in a position to encourage someone to seek therapy, the caretaking balance is fatally tipped and you are well into maternal territory. men who seek this from women resent them for it even as they arrange situations that call for it, so even if you don't mind at the time, it won't end well. and if it's your own pattern and not his, it should still be resisted.
(by encouraging, I don't mean him: "I think maybe I should go to therapy," you: "that's a good idea, I support you." that's fine and good. I mean: you thinking of it, bringing it up, talking him into it, helping him find a therapist, reminding him to go. don't do that whole string of things. let the urge to do it be the red flag, and stop there.)
posted by queenofbithynia at 12:17 PM on February 24, 2018 [15 favorites]
the other sign is need for caretaking -- if you find yourself in a position to encourage someone to seek therapy, the caretaking balance is fatally tipped and you are well into maternal territory. men who seek this from women resent them for it even as they arrange situations that call for it, so even if you don't mind at the time, it won't end well. and if it's your own pattern and not his, it should still be resisted.
(by encouraging, I don't mean him: "I think maybe I should go to therapy," you: "that's a good idea, I support you." that's fine and good. I mean: you thinking of it, bringing it up, talking him into it, helping him find a therapist, reminding him to go. don't do that whole string of things. let the urge to do it be the red flag, and stop there.)
posted by queenofbithynia at 12:17 PM on February 24, 2018 [15 favorites]
A good relationship does not have real problems because your exact sports don't match, or you ask him a question when he's tired. Nor could most relationships survive a "short emotional affair". This relationship was doomed.
I see issues on both sides. He was afraid to tell you what he actually thought much of the time, and then had an "affair", but you seem to believe that asking a question when he's tired, or pressing him a little about the point at which the LDR was going to end contributed to its demise. He avoided answering questions that might have led to concrete plans for a future together. Then he has the gall to blame the break-up on you for suggesting counseling! Of course he broke up by email; he didn't want to face you! Were you truly unaware that there were serious problems in this relationship and that he was not fully committed? This guy is a weak loser, possibly not as acutely obvious because it was an LDR, but a lying loser nonetheless. You are well rid of him.
Have you considered counseling for yourself? Understanding yourself leads to strength and less emotional conflict within yourself. It enables happiness apart from a partner, and lots of what we do in life is alone. Our careers, our friendships, relationships with eventual children all must be sustained one-on-one. Understanding our motivations and triggers, knowing our values, enables happiness with or without a partner. This in turn ensures that when you meet someone you fancy, if he is also happy and strong, rather than needy, moody, and distant, that he's a person who can sustain a happy and healthy relationship, and won't be dependent or evasive.
posted by citygirl at 12:42 PM on February 24, 2018 [3 favorites]
I see issues on both sides. He was afraid to tell you what he actually thought much of the time, and then had an "affair", but you seem to believe that asking a question when he's tired, or pressing him a little about the point at which the LDR was going to end contributed to its demise. He avoided answering questions that might have led to concrete plans for a future together. Then he has the gall to blame the break-up on you for suggesting counseling! Of course he broke up by email; he didn't want to face you! Were you truly unaware that there were serious problems in this relationship and that he was not fully committed? This guy is a weak loser, possibly not as acutely obvious because it was an LDR, but a lying loser nonetheless. You are well rid of him.
Have you considered counseling for yourself? Understanding yourself leads to strength and less emotional conflict within yourself. It enables happiness apart from a partner, and lots of what we do in life is alone. Our careers, our friendships, relationships with eventual children all must be sustained one-on-one. Understanding our motivations and triggers, knowing our values, enables happiness with or without a partner. This in turn ensures that when you meet someone you fancy, if he is also happy and strong, rather than needy, moody, and distant, that he's a person who can sustain a happy and healthy relationship, and won't be dependent or evasive.
posted by citygirl at 12:42 PM on February 24, 2018 [3 favorites]
my ex is a people pleaser. This means that whenever we would talk about even a small issue, he would just nod and say monosyllabic words/not be able to speak at all.
This does not say "people pleaser" at all to me but rather more "conflict avoidant". I think you can avoid this by not labeling people as a type (that may be incorrect) and instead pay attention to their behavior in the moment. Someone who nods and smiles and seems to have no opinion would be a red flag to me if that occurred under all circumstances and in all conversations.
posted by oneirodynia at 2:01 PM on February 24, 2018 [13 favorites]
This does not say "people pleaser" at all to me but rather more "conflict avoidant". I think you can avoid this by not labeling people as a type (that may be incorrect) and instead pay attention to their behavior in the moment. Someone who nods and smiles and seems to have no opinion would be a red flag to me if that occurred under all circumstances and in all conversations.
posted by oneirodynia at 2:01 PM on February 24, 2018 [13 favorites]
I know it's hard to see it this way now while the pain is still fresh, but it seems to me like you dodged a bullet with his breaking up with you now instead of prolonging the inevitable and dragging this clearly doomed relationship out for months, or even years. In which case, hopefully you'll eventually be able to thank yourself for recommending he get counseling since it saved you from a lot of future pain with this guy.
>>I opened up a conversation about where he saw us ending up when the LDR ended in a few months. It was the weekend, we were having drinks & were feeling relaxed. Immediately he froze saying 'I really think we should discuss this another time - maybe tomorrow.' However he also admitted during a break up call that he probably would never have raised it of his own accord unless I had. How do I broach talks about things in future in a better way?>>
That doesn't sound like anything you did wrong in terms of broaching talks. I hate to say this, but seems to me like he must've responded in that way because he was already kind of emotionally checked out.
So I would agree with those who have said the better question is, how do you get better at recognizing the signs of an unhealthy relationship? And of recognizing when you are rationalizing a bad situation rather than working on extricating yourself from it.
posted by wondermouse at 7:43 PM on February 24, 2018 [2 favorites]
>>I opened up a conversation about where he saw us ending up when the LDR ended in a few months. It was the weekend, we were having drinks & were feeling relaxed. Immediately he froze saying 'I really think we should discuss this another time - maybe tomorrow.' However he also admitted during a break up call that he probably would never have raised it of his own accord unless I had. How do I broach talks about things in future in a better way?>>
That doesn't sound like anything you did wrong in terms of broaching talks. I hate to say this, but seems to me like he must've responded in that way because he was already kind of emotionally checked out.
So I would agree with those who have said the better question is, how do you get better at recognizing the signs of an unhealthy relationship? And of recognizing when you are rationalizing a bad situation rather than working on extricating yourself from it.
posted by wondermouse at 7:43 PM on February 24, 2018 [2 favorites]
« Older Go to references for smacking down alt-right... | Where to find mole paste in DC or LA? Newer »
This thread is closed to new comments.
How to choose someone compatible?: Throughout the relationship my ex and I had different hobbies mostly (he was into extreme sports & a watersport that the majority of his social life revolved around). I am a writer & enjoy going to museums galleries, am also passionate about a different watersport. We had books, movies & hiking in common and both made a big effort to partake in the other person's hobbies. However during the break up my ex said our passions and interests were too different - even though he always relished this before. Should I date someone more like myself next time? I don't know what kind of person to go for anymore...
posted by Willow251 at 10:10 AM on February 24, 2018