Love in the time of internet images
January 26, 2018 10:09 AM Subscribe
My question to you all is how you truly feel about your significant others looks and how you navigate objectification of others with your words and actions.
Here’s something I’ve been struggling with with modern dating. My parents and friends think I’m beautiful, although I’m an average looking woman in my 30s. I know the narrative is that when you’re in love average looking people become the best looking to you. However, I’m struggling to find boyfriends who will say that, there is an abundance of truly objectively beautiful women on social media and around us, and although there are many men who will have sex me, I can’t find one who thinks I’m special or who will articulate it.
This isn’t a conversation I have, rather something I observe through the actions and words of those who I date. I have a lot of other positive qualities that don’t seem to matter these days.
Am I wrong to expect a special man to think I’m his end all be all? Or is this an artifact of modern dating in the time of instant gratification? My question to you all is how you truly feel about your significant others looks and how you navigate objectification of others with your words and actions.
Here’s something I’ve been struggling with with modern dating. My parents and friends think I’m beautiful, although I’m an average looking woman in my 30s. I know the narrative is that when you’re in love average looking people become the best looking to you. However, I’m struggling to find boyfriends who will say that, there is an abundance of truly objectively beautiful women on social media and around us, and although there are many men who will have sex me, I can’t find one who thinks I’m special or who will articulate it.
This isn’t a conversation I have, rather something I observe through the actions and words of those who I date. I have a lot of other positive qualities that don’t seem to matter these days.
Am I wrong to expect a special man to think I’m his end all be all? Or is this an artifact of modern dating in the time of instant gratification? My question to you all is how you truly feel about your significant others looks and how you navigate objectification of others with your words and actions.
I think your expectations are fine. I think my wife is smokin' hot even compared to the hottest actress/model/porn actress. Grown up human beings understand that Jessica Alba in a photoshoot isn't a real person.
There's two sides to the coin of course, maybe you shouldn't be measuring yourself against fake/abstract idealized beauty standards (not saying that you are, just that you shouldn't) or feel that comparison/competition. But hell no, your partner shouldn't either.
posted by so fucking future at 10:44 AM on January 26, 2018 [3 favorites]
There's two sides to the coin of course, maybe you shouldn't be measuring yourself against fake/abstract idealized beauty standards (not saying that you are, just that you shouldn't) or feel that comparison/competition. But hell no, your partner shouldn't either.
posted by so fucking future at 10:44 AM on January 26, 2018 [3 favorites]
Am I wrong to expect a special man to think I’m his end all be all
No.
although there are many men who will have sex me, I can’t find one who thinks I’m special or who will articulate it
Hold out for that rare one; the others jump ship and take the instant gratification train straight to the next more attractive person who catches their eye anyways, and in the process of, it will wear you down and out, so don't do that to yourself and keep your great values and outlook intact.
posted by OnefortheLast at 10:47 AM on January 26, 2018 [3 favorites]
although there are many men who will have sex me, I can’t find one who thinks I’m special or who will articulate it
Step one: stop sleeping with dudes who don't think you're special or won't tell you so. A man who wants to sleep with you who can't at least summon up some relevant flattery isn't even trying and values you at zero. Why would you want to sleep with someone like that?
posted by praemunire at 10:48 AM on January 26, 2018 [22 favorites]
Step one: stop sleeping with dudes who don't think you're special or won't tell you so. A man who wants to sleep with you who can't at least summon up some relevant flattery isn't even trying and values you at zero. Why would you want to sleep with someone like that?
posted by praemunire at 10:48 AM on January 26, 2018 [22 favorites]
I can’t find one who thinks I’m special or who will articulate it.
The next time you're with a man and in a situation where you want to hear it, tell him to say it. Tell him to tell you you're beautiful. Ask him to tell you why. Guide him to say these things to you in a way you find romantic. Most importantly: never bring anyone else's looks into conversations like this. Don't ask him to compare you to anyone. Stop him from trying to compare you to anyone to make you feel good. Leave the context of romance between you two and just you two. It might feel unsexy or unsponteaneous to literally instruct someone how to compliment you but after the other person internalizes this as a compliment you want to hear, you'll start hearing it spontaneously (assuming they're invested in making you feel good, which also makes this a bit of a litmus test if this is Very important to you.)
As far as objectification and the rest of the world: there's beautiful people everywhere, that part isn't something anyone can change about the world. But what you can do is leave all these beautiful people out of the context of your romance. I think my wife is very, very beautiful and I tell her that all the time and she tells me the nice things she thinks of my looks because she thinks I am very good looking as well. I'm also aware of the fact that there's movie stars and models and other people whose literal job it is to be as beautiful as they can possibly be. My wife is also aware of such things! We both (for example) follow models on Instagram because they're good looking and it's nice and fun to look at a good looking person. Once in a while one of us will give a phone or whatever to the other and be like "goddamn look at this hotness" and we'll agree that, damn, that's hot.
But that's just for fun and neither one of us is looking at these Instagram photos thinking "my spouse is somehow failing me compared to this photo of a near-stranger." Maybe sometimes there's a "you should cut your beard like that" or "you should get that kind of dress" or something, a low-stakes way to incorporate what we find attractive about these people into our own lives and persons, but the idea of comparing a real-life person to an image is just a fool's errand.
posted by griphus at 10:49 AM on January 26, 2018 [29 favorites]
The next time you're with a man and in a situation where you want to hear it, tell him to say it. Tell him to tell you you're beautiful. Ask him to tell you why. Guide him to say these things to you in a way you find romantic. Most importantly: never bring anyone else's looks into conversations like this. Don't ask him to compare you to anyone. Stop him from trying to compare you to anyone to make you feel good. Leave the context of romance between you two and just you two. It might feel unsexy or unsponteaneous to literally instruct someone how to compliment you but after the other person internalizes this as a compliment you want to hear, you'll start hearing it spontaneously (assuming they're invested in making you feel good, which also makes this a bit of a litmus test if this is Very important to you.)
As far as objectification and the rest of the world: there's beautiful people everywhere, that part isn't something anyone can change about the world. But what you can do is leave all these beautiful people out of the context of your romance. I think my wife is very, very beautiful and I tell her that all the time and she tells me the nice things she thinks of my looks because she thinks I am very good looking as well. I'm also aware of the fact that there's movie stars and models and other people whose literal job it is to be as beautiful as they can possibly be. My wife is also aware of such things! We both (for example) follow models on Instagram because they're good looking and it's nice and fun to look at a good looking person. Once in a while one of us will give a phone or whatever to the other and be like "goddamn look at this hotness" and we'll agree that, damn, that's hot.
But that's just for fun and neither one of us is looking at these Instagram photos thinking "my spouse is somehow failing me compared to this photo of a near-stranger." Maybe sometimes there's a "you should cut your beard like that" or "you should get that kind of dress" or something, a low-stakes way to incorporate what we find attractive about these people into our own lives and persons, but the idea of comparing a real-life person to an image is just a fool's errand.
posted by griphus at 10:49 AM on January 26, 2018 [29 favorites]
Just a little note on this:
Am I wrong to expect a special man to think I’m his end all be all?
You're absolutely not wrong to want your partner to find you beautiful! But being someone's "end all be all" is a bit much. He should appreciate you and value you, but let's be honest - he would not be human if he didn't find other people attractive. And neither would you.
Don't get me wrong - it's very important, in a relationship, to feel like your partner finds you attractive. My partner says lovely things about me on a regular basis, and I can tell you it feels wonderful. It's the very reason he can also talk about other attractive women without me feeling threatened or insecure. I do the same with him, of course. It's important for both parties to feel wanted and attractive.
I'm sure you are beautiful and you will find that special man who thinks so and will say so. You just haven't found him yet!
posted by yawper at 10:50 AM on January 26, 2018 [17 favorites]
Am I wrong to expect a special man to think I’m his end all be all?
You're absolutely not wrong to want your partner to find you beautiful! But being someone's "end all be all" is a bit much. He should appreciate you and value you, but let's be honest - he would not be human if he didn't find other people attractive. And neither would you.
Don't get me wrong - it's very important, in a relationship, to feel like your partner finds you attractive. My partner says lovely things about me on a regular basis, and I can tell you it feels wonderful. It's the very reason he can also talk about other attractive women without me feeling threatened or insecure. I do the same with him, of course. It's important for both parties to feel wanted and attractive.
I'm sure you are beautiful and you will find that special man who thinks so and will say so. You just haven't found him yet!
posted by yawper at 10:50 AM on January 26, 2018 [17 favorites]
Am I wrong to expect a special man to think I’m his end all be all?
In a word, yes. Or at least that's far from how I would put it. People need lots of people; no one person can be everything. I am happily and monogamously coupled, for almost two decades, but both of us need other people in our lives. Friends, family, co-workers, etc. And both of us do indeed find some other human beings attractive.
But maybe "end all and be all" means something different to you. Based off the rest of your question, maybe you meant something more like:
Am I wrong to expect a special man to think I'm amazing, and beautiful, and value my many good qualities, someone who will tell me so, and and not continually compare me to flashy hot women in the media?
--and the answer to that is no, you are not wrong to look for that, many people find it, and you can too!
(on preview: jinx yawper)
posted by SaltySalticid at 10:50 AM on January 26, 2018 [5 favorites]
In a word, yes. Or at least that's far from how I would put it. People need lots of people; no one person can be everything. I am happily and monogamously coupled, for almost two decades, but both of us need other people in our lives. Friends, family, co-workers, etc. And both of us do indeed find some other human beings attractive.
But maybe "end all and be all" means something different to you. Based off the rest of your question, maybe you meant something more like:
Am I wrong to expect a special man to think I'm amazing, and beautiful, and value my many good qualities, someone who will tell me so, and and not continually compare me to flashy hot women in the media?
--and the answer to that is no, you are not wrong to look for that, many people find it, and you can too!
(on preview: jinx yawper)
posted by SaltySalticid at 10:50 AM on January 26, 2018 [5 favorites]
I don't think it's fair to expect men you've only recently started dating to think you're the hottest thing walking. That feeling - that your objectively-average partner is subjectively-sublime - grows with a relationship. For example, when I met and started dating my bf, I thought he was cute and fit. Today, almost a year later, I think he's by far the sexiest guy out there, and I tell him so.
If you're bothered because men aren't telling you that you're beautiful after a short amount of dating, I think you should adjust your expectations. Many people are cautious about making too many comments about appearances to avoid objectifying others. Give them time to develop feelings and a deep attraction to you.
posted by schroedingersgirl at 11:03 AM on January 26, 2018 [7 favorites]
If you're bothered because men aren't telling you that you're beautiful after a short amount of dating, I think you should adjust your expectations. Many people are cautious about making too many comments about appearances to avoid objectifying others. Give them time to develop feelings and a deep attraction to you.
posted by schroedingersgirl at 11:03 AM on January 26, 2018 [7 favorites]
I don't know how much stock I'd put in 'the five love languages' rhetoric generally, but it is true that different people have different ways of expressing their attraction and love, and different ways they like to be shown love. Some people need to receive compliments to feel loved; some don't care; some hate it. Some people love to express emotional closeness via compliments; some don't feel comfortable; some have no idea how or why to do that. It sounds like you would benefit from a partner who shows love through compliments. I promise they do exist!
It also sounds like you're experiencing both a mismatch between your preferences for expressed love *and* your need for an emotionally close relationship, in your relationships. They might be related, but I think you want to consider the two as separate issues. If you find an emotionally close relationship and it's not with a person who expresses love through compliments, the two of you can work together on that, so that both of you feel heard and loved. But someone who is good at compliments *without* valuing you as a person, in addition to your physical qualities, won't be able to give you what you need.
I wonder if another problem here is your feeling compelled to compare yourself with people on social media or those around you, and if that's pushing you to an emotional place where you feel insecure. If you have obligations that compel you to be on social media, or if you live in a place where certain types of physical presentation are highly valued / expected / considered the norm (like NYC or LA or other places with notoriously rough dating scenes), perhaps those stresses are wearing you down, and making you feel less secure in your relationships and in yourself. Reminding yourself that you don't have to live up to other people's filtered feeds to be beautiful and lovable is tough to do, but trying to work on that might help you feel better. I know 'stay off social media' is well-worn and tiresome advice... but honestly it does help with a lot of things, in my experience, relationships included.
posted by halation at 11:22 AM on January 26, 2018 [1 favorite]
It also sounds like you're experiencing both a mismatch between your preferences for expressed love *and* your need for an emotionally close relationship, in your relationships. They might be related, but I think you want to consider the two as separate issues. If you find an emotionally close relationship and it's not with a person who expresses love through compliments, the two of you can work together on that, so that both of you feel heard and loved. But someone who is good at compliments *without* valuing you as a person, in addition to your physical qualities, won't be able to give you what you need.
I wonder if another problem here is your feeling compelled to compare yourself with people on social media or those around you, and if that's pushing you to an emotional place where you feel insecure. If you have obligations that compel you to be on social media, or if you live in a place where certain types of physical presentation are highly valued / expected / considered the norm (like NYC or LA or other places with notoriously rough dating scenes), perhaps those stresses are wearing you down, and making you feel less secure in your relationships and in yourself. Reminding yourself that you don't have to live up to other people's filtered feeds to be beautiful and lovable is tough to do, but trying to work on that might help you feel better. I know 'stay off social media' is well-worn and tiresome advice... but honestly it does help with a lot of things, in my experience, relationships included.
posted by halation at 11:22 AM on January 26, 2018 [1 favorite]
The short version: Looks aren't everything. A mutual feeling from both partners that the other is special is.
This ask MeFI thread from 2012, I'm ugly, now what?, still haunts and inspires me, especially this response:
My wife is ugly. She knows it and I know it, but we've never talked about it. It's that hard. Until I met her, fell in love with her, and married her, I never really understood what a burden ugliness is, especially for a woman.
I've never told her that she's beautiful, something that I just said automatically and spontaneously to so many girlfriends. In a candid sad moment once she told me that no one told her she was beautiful on our wedding day. When we watch movies and someone tells a woman how beautiful she is I cringe inside, because it is a reminder of how huge and every present this myth of beauty is. It's what every woman is told she is supposed to be pretty much from the day she's born, and my wife just isn't that. She fails it utterly, and there are just constant reminders of it.
So that's all very depressing, but I'm telling you this because I did fall in love with her and I did marry her, and we're very happy together, and we have two beautiful children (there's that word again, sorry). And in case it matters, I'm not ugly myself. I've been told that I'm attractive, and I went to a good college and have been reasonably successful in life. So I don't think she had to trade down to find someone to marry her. I didn't either, that's the thing.
I'm writing this because all these other people are responding kind of telling you not to worry about it, but I'm not sure they really understand how hard it is for a woman to be ugly, with uneven droopy eyes and uneven lips and bad skin and the rest. It's hard and I feel for you. But I also wanted to write to assure that there's still hope, and there's still love out there for you. There was and is for my wife, so I know there can be for you too.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 11:27 AM on January 26, 2018 [7 favorites]
This ask MeFI thread from 2012, I'm ugly, now what?, still haunts and inspires me, especially this response:
My wife is ugly. She knows it and I know it, but we've never talked about it. It's that hard. Until I met her, fell in love with her, and married her, I never really understood what a burden ugliness is, especially for a woman.
I've never told her that she's beautiful, something that I just said automatically and spontaneously to so many girlfriends. In a candid sad moment once she told me that no one told her she was beautiful on our wedding day. When we watch movies and someone tells a woman how beautiful she is I cringe inside, because it is a reminder of how huge and every present this myth of beauty is. It's what every woman is told she is supposed to be pretty much from the day she's born, and my wife just isn't that. She fails it utterly, and there are just constant reminders of it.
So that's all very depressing, but I'm telling you this because I did fall in love with her and I did marry her, and we're very happy together, and we have two beautiful children (there's that word again, sorry). And in case it matters, I'm not ugly myself. I've been told that I'm attractive, and I went to a good college and have been reasonably successful in life. So I don't think she had to trade down to find someone to marry her. I didn't either, that's the thing.
I'm writing this because all these other people are responding kind of telling you not to worry about it, but I'm not sure they really understand how hard it is for a woman to be ugly, with uneven droopy eyes and uneven lips and bad skin and the rest. It's hard and I feel for you. But I also wanted to write to assure that there's still hope, and there's still love out there for you. There was and is for my wife, so I know there can be for you too.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 11:27 AM on January 26, 2018 [7 favorites]
You need what you need, I suppose, but I never trusted a man who had that much to say about my looks.
posted by vunder at 11:29 AM on January 26, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by vunder at 11:29 AM on January 26, 2018 [4 favorites]
Am I wrong to expect a special man to think I’m his end all be all
I'm not entirely sure why you're being told this is wrong at all; if this is something you place importance on in a relationship and something that you yourself can and do offer, then who is to say that is a "wrong" relationship. Of all people in the world, you've chosen one, and damn straight they should be the best and most important thing in your eyes! Some people love making their partners feel like the most amazing thing on earth and vice versa, appreciate them for all of their qualities, not just the ones that'll turn grey, fall out, wear out or get wrinkles and stretch marks, and some prefer their partner to be their best friend/spotlight of their life, and some simply don't. This isn't wrong, it's just personal preference and confront levels.
As far as objectification, I don't believe that's inherently wrong either, but I think most people in the context of an intimate relationship prefer it to not be of more importance than other factors, and is more of a sexual compatibility quality. Objectification of those who've chosen it as a career, a lifestyle or a personal identity can be, as another poster noted, a fun way to connect with your partner and appreciate beauty in general, just as you would for example, share and appreciate a story or observation about heroic bravery or insane cooking skills with your partner.
Personally, I think that YOU are the one who should be calibrating your own sense of what's right and wrong for YOU and choosing partners who's values are similar. Self-shaming yourself for those, or accepting what you know isn't right *for you*, just because it may go against a majorty opinion, isn't going to help you personally in being content and comfortable enough to enjoy what is supposed to be the most enjoyable relationship in your life.
posted by OnefortheLast at 11:30 AM on January 26, 2018 [1 favorite]
I'm interested that you start out talking about being called "beautiful" and then transition to "thinks I'm special/his be all and end all." Those aren't the same thing. What's the actual important thing to you here? Is it super important to be verbally called "beautiful?" Or is the important thing being seen as special and as an important part of his world? They don't necessarily go together, and of the two, it is a good idea to prioritize the second batch of things. Beauty is common enough to find. Specialness isn't.
posted by Miko at 11:43 AM on January 26, 2018 [9 favorites]
posted by Miko at 11:43 AM on January 26, 2018 [9 favorites]
The "end all, be all" thing is really tripping me up here. I absolutely empathize with the desire to be found beautiful by a partner, but as others have said, there's a stark difference in my mind between wanting to be thought of as physically attractive and wanting to be put on a pedestal and worshiped as a real live deity. That's how I'm interpreting the be all, end all thing -- in order for someone to be MY be all, end all, they would not only have to be physically attractive to me, they'd also need to be brilliant, kind, generous, the funniest person on the planet who also never ever steps on my jokes or makes me feel like I'm not as funny as them, exactly 100% on my very specific sexual wavelength, always aware of my needs and ready to cater to them at a moment's notice, always good at communication, et cetera et cetera et cetera. Pretty impossible, right? Because basically, what I'm asking for here is literal perfection, and no one person can deliver all of that. I doubt that even a team of ten people could deliver all of that to me in an adequate way. And I truly doubt that I could ever live up to being anyone else's end all be all, because to me that means meeting one person's needs, constantly, without ever disappointing them, and there is no way that's possible. It's just not.
So I guess what I'm getting at is that I think you're setting an impossibly high bar here, and that it might be a good idea to spend some time figuring out what it is you actually mean by what you're saying here.
posted by palomar at 12:05 PM on January 26, 2018 [3 favorites]
So I guess what I'm getting at is that I think you're setting an impossibly high bar here, and that it might be a good idea to spend some time figuring out what it is you actually mean by what you're saying here.
posted by palomar at 12:05 PM on January 26, 2018 [3 favorites]
Response by poster: Several people have asked for clarification and I guess I mean more like "feeling special". Like I think a lot of people use the lack of special-ness as an excuse to be less than kind or respectful. I'm just asking if its reasonable to be treated with respect even if you aren't perfect as in palomar's description, and what that looks like.
posted by cakebatter at 12:09 PM on January 26, 2018
posted by cakebatter at 12:09 PM on January 26, 2018
I'm just asking if its reasonable to be treated with respect even if you aren't perfect as in palomar's description, and what that looks like.
Yes! No one is perfect (physically or otherwise) but we all deserve to be treated with respect.
You might want to do some soul-searching about why "being treated respectfully" appears roughly equivalent to "being seen as special" appears roughly equivalent to "being seen as amazingly beautiful." Those things are very different!
posted by schroedingersgirl at 12:11 PM on January 26, 2018 [16 favorites]
Yes! No one is perfect (physically or otherwise) but we all deserve to be treated with respect.
You might want to do some soul-searching about why "being treated respectfully" appears roughly equivalent to "being seen as special" appears roughly equivalent to "being seen as amazingly beautiful." Those things are very different!
posted by schroedingersgirl at 12:11 PM on January 26, 2018 [16 favorites]
It's strange and saddening how many equate and assign the word "beauty" and "attractiveness" solely to physical aesthetic appearances.
Other definitions of beauty include:
-a combination of qualities that pleases the intellect or moral sense
-the pleasing or attractive features of something
-the advantage of something
posted by OnefortheLast at 12:31 PM on January 26, 2018 [1 favorite]
Other definitions of beauty include:
-a combination of qualities that pleases the intellect or moral sense
-the pleasing or attractive features of something
-the advantage of something
posted by OnefortheLast at 12:31 PM on January 26, 2018 [1 favorite]
You absolutely have a right to expect that your romantic partner will make you feel special. That's kind of the point: that of all the people on this earth, the two of you are here for each other in a particular way and each of you is, most of the time, happy about that and, at least some of the time, kind of overwhelmed with feeling how lucky you are that the other is with you.
If your partner isn't feeling the latter at least some of the time, that's a problem. If they are feeling it but not telling or showing you in a way that is real to you, that's a different but equally real problem. You have a right to expect your partner to feel that way at least at times, and communicate persuasively to you that they are feeling that way.
The existence of other hot people or hotter people is kind of a red herring. There will always be hot people. Even if you are married to someone who is hot not just in your own eyes but in some sort of objective sense, you will be attracted to other people. There's no way to just be attracted to one man or one woman, without being attracted to some subset of men or women more generally. Outside of mothers and newborn babies, nobody can possibly be everything to someone else. That's not a fair expectation.
At the same time, you are right to expect your partner to manage their attraction to other people in a way that is fair to you. Obviously staring at other women, for instance, whether it be online or in a magazine or in real life, might be a thing that you need them to curtail, perhaps in your presence and perhaps overall. It might be a thing that your partner needs to curtail for their own benefit as well, in order to have more integrity and more presence and more attention to put into their actual relationship. Someone who is spending a lot of time looking at the new intern's pictures on facebook, let's say, is perhaps not cultivating their attraction to their actual partner.
You are right to expect that your partner will both cultivate their attraction to you and be seen by you to be cultivating that attraction. That they will look at you with affection, and in so doing their affection for you will grow. That they will find value in at least some the things you value, and in so doing their esteem for you will grow. If they are not making those investments of thoughtful attention, then attraction can hardly be expected to flourish. It should flourish. You are right to expect it to flourish. What is the point, otherwise?
posted by gauche at 12:56 PM on January 26, 2018 [6 favorites]
If your partner isn't feeling the latter at least some of the time, that's a problem. If they are feeling it but not telling or showing you in a way that is real to you, that's a different but equally real problem. You have a right to expect your partner to feel that way at least at times, and communicate persuasively to you that they are feeling that way.
The existence of other hot people or hotter people is kind of a red herring. There will always be hot people. Even if you are married to someone who is hot not just in your own eyes but in some sort of objective sense, you will be attracted to other people. There's no way to just be attracted to one man or one woman, without being attracted to some subset of men or women more generally. Outside of mothers and newborn babies, nobody can possibly be everything to someone else. That's not a fair expectation.
At the same time, you are right to expect your partner to manage their attraction to other people in a way that is fair to you. Obviously staring at other women, for instance, whether it be online or in a magazine or in real life, might be a thing that you need them to curtail, perhaps in your presence and perhaps overall. It might be a thing that your partner needs to curtail for their own benefit as well, in order to have more integrity and more presence and more attention to put into their actual relationship. Someone who is spending a lot of time looking at the new intern's pictures on facebook, let's say, is perhaps not cultivating their attraction to their actual partner.
You are right to expect that your partner will both cultivate their attraction to you and be seen by you to be cultivating that attraction. That they will look at you with affection, and in so doing their affection for you will grow. That they will find value in at least some the things you value, and in so doing their esteem for you will grow. If they are not making those investments of thoughtful attention, then attraction can hardly be expected to flourish. It should flourish. You are right to expect it to flourish. What is the point, otherwise?
posted by gauche at 12:56 PM on January 26, 2018 [6 favorites]
What you want to surround yourself with are people who treat people, and especially women, with respect and kindness without them having to have any particular specialness about them.
Think about men who only treat women with respect if they judge them to be treating themselves with respect - those are men with regressive, misogynistic, madonna-whore views. "Winning" their "respect" by behaving in the way they want doesn't make them kind and respectful men.
Sure, find a partner who finds you amazing - that's doable. But that shouldn't be the basis of why they are kind and respectful to you. Only give your time to people whose kindness and respect you don't have to hustle for.
posted by Chrysalis at 12:57 PM on January 26, 2018 [2 favorites]
Think about men who only treat women with respect if they judge them to be treating themselves with respect - those are men with regressive, misogynistic, madonna-whore views. "Winning" their "respect" by behaving in the way they want doesn't make them kind and respectful men.
Sure, find a partner who finds you amazing - that's doable. But that shouldn't be the basis of why they are kind and respectful to you. Only give your time to people whose kindness and respect you don't have to hustle for.
posted by Chrysalis at 12:57 PM on January 26, 2018 [2 favorites]
I mean... literally no one is as perfect as the person I described. It is flat out impossible. That was kind of my point.
Of course it is reasonable to want to be respected by a partner. But I still don't understand what that respect looks like to you, when I'm given the context that you feel like you're being romantically disrespected because you're not as pretty as some girls on social media. If you're dating a guy and he actually tells you that you're not pretty enough for him, then congratulations, he just gave you a massive gift. You don't have to waste time on him anymore! But if you're dating a guy and he follows pretty girls on Instagram and that alone makes you feel like he doesn't think you're special... I'm going to suggest that you talk to a therapist and find a way to manage those feelings. Because human beings like to look at pretty things. I follow some fine-ass men on Instagram, and if I had a partner who got upset about that and took it as a statement of how much I value him, that would be a problem. Because it's not about him. And if a guy you're dating sometimes looks at pictures of pretty girls... that's not about you. It's not about you until he says or does something that clearly communicates that he thinks you're not worthy of respect. It might be helpful to talk to someone about ways to stop internalizing that stuff.
posted by palomar at 1:01 PM on January 26, 2018 [2 favorites]
Of course it is reasonable to want to be respected by a partner. But I still don't understand what that respect looks like to you, when I'm given the context that you feel like you're being romantically disrespected because you're not as pretty as some girls on social media. If you're dating a guy and he actually tells you that you're not pretty enough for him, then congratulations, he just gave you a massive gift. You don't have to waste time on him anymore! But if you're dating a guy and he follows pretty girls on Instagram and that alone makes you feel like he doesn't think you're special... I'm going to suggest that you talk to a therapist and find a way to manage those feelings. Because human beings like to look at pretty things. I follow some fine-ass men on Instagram, and if I had a partner who got upset about that and took it as a statement of how much I value him, that would be a problem. Because it's not about him. And if a guy you're dating sometimes looks at pictures of pretty girls... that's not about you. It's not about you until he says or does something that clearly communicates that he thinks you're not worthy of respect. It might be helpful to talk to someone about ways to stop internalizing that stuff.
posted by palomar at 1:01 PM on January 26, 2018 [2 favorites]
People's treatment of you isn't a reflection on you, it's a reflection on them.
posted by Chrysalis at 1:01 PM on January 26, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by Chrysalis at 1:01 PM on January 26, 2018 [5 favorites]
Being interested, in love, infatuated, having a crush, is celebrating life, if you ask me. Celebrate as much as you can and do what griphus says but then do it together. Each of you could say something they really like about the other, in turns. You could start. It could be a game where you try to win by saying as much as you can, and meaning it. A cool tradition in a relationship, a good litmus test for a budding one, indeed. Maybe you've been meeting a lot of dating-fatigued people. That struggle is only too real. But be prepared to be the enthusiasm that you seek.
posted by Litehouse at 1:27 PM on January 26, 2018
posted by Litehouse at 1:27 PM on January 26, 2018
You're not wrong! I'm an average looking woman in my 30s and met my husband on tinder - he always makes me feel (and tells me that I am) beautiful. I feel like the most special woman in the world when I'm with him (I'm really very average - he makes me feel ok with being average :) ).
This is not a you problem, it's a problem with the shallow men you are dating. Keep holding out for what you deserve - it exists.
posted by thereader at 1:36 PM on January 26, 2018
This is not a you problem, it's a problem with the shallow men you are dating. Keep holding out for what you deserve - it exists.
posted by thereader at 1:36 PM on January 26, 2018
The internet has not made men more sensitive or interested in women's (shall we say) conventional physical beauty. If anything, the internet has permitted every other form of romantic or erotic attachment to thrive, and corresponding reduced the importance of female conventional beauty relative to all other things men might like.
The internet has not changed the etiquette that it is rude, and at a certain point becomes outright cruel, to over-attend to other women, including pictures of the same, in the presence or to the knowledge of your wife or girlfriend, no matter how pretty she (or the other women) are. Your grandmother didn't stand for it 50 years ago from your internet-phobic and by-today's-standards-not-at-all-woke grandfather, and you don't have to stand for it in a boyfriend today.
Overall there's really nothing more common than a man with a not-conventionally-beautiful wife. Some of them see their wives only in the beauty of their youths. Some are truly love-blind and see their wives as beautiful no matter how they may appear to others. Finally some are like the "I'm ugly, now what" husband: in love with their wives despite knowing they aren't good looking. But I'd say something about that last category at least among men in it whom I know: they don't love their wives any less, they truly don't.
posted by MattD at 7:05 PM on January 26, 2018
The internet has not changed the etiquette that it is rude, and at a certain point becomes outright cruel, to over-attend to other women, including pictures of the same, in the presence or to the knowledge of your wife or girlfriend, no matter how pretty she (or the other women) are. Your grandmother didn't stand for it 50 years ago from your internet-phobic and by-today's-standards-not-at-all-woke grandfather, and you don't have to stand for it in a boyfriend today.
Overall there's really nothing more common than a man with a not-conventionally-beautiful wife. Some of them see their wives only in the beauty of their youths. Some are truly love-blind and see their wives as beautiful no matter how they may appear to others. Finally some are like the "I'm ugly, now what" husband: in love with their wives despite knowing they aren't good looking. But I'd say something about that last category at least among men in it whom I know: they don't love their wives any less, they truly don't.
posted by MattD at 7:05 PM on January 26, 2018
My significant other has always maintained that I am truly beautiful and special in every way. Now I'm sure he knows I'm not objectively all that attractive (I'm not; I look alright, but I have been anywhere from 10-40 pounds overweight in the decade that I've known him) but that's been the position he's taken since the minute we got together, and he's never wavered from it.
To be honest, I don't even think I have the body type that he finds most attractive but (A) he's never said that, and in fact has always said the opposite (B) I know it's not true but I'm not going to actively ask him about it, because I think it's a white lie he tells me which I actually find endearing, and (C) I know he truly and deeply loves me for other reasons and is attracted to me for my qualities, just like I love him for reasons that go beyond the superficial. I also have pretty high self-esteem, I'm confident in how I look, and I know I clean up nice. If I want to, I can look more conventionally attractive by doing things such as wearing my contacts instead of my glasses, getting my eyebrows done, taking time to do my hair and makeup, wearing clothing that emphasizes my best features and skims over the not so good ones, etc.
As for instagram models, neither of us follow any. Me, as a rule, because I don't think it's good for my mental health to compare myself or my life to celebrities and models - I'm more likely to envy them for their jetsetting lifestyle (all that travel and permanent vacation!) rather than their looks. And for my husband, it's because he's just not that active a user of social media. But I do think it'd be disrespectful if he were looking at and liking photos of women on instagram or anywhere else. Not to say that neither of us have ever looked at anybody else and found them attractive (we have, and we've talked about it together sometimes - like a bunch of people upthread said, it can be fun to discuss which celebrities you find hot, etc) but as a general principle, if my partner was actively excessively looking at or liking photos of other women, I would have a problem with it, yeah.
posted by spicytunaroll at 10:15 PM on January 26, 2018 [4 favorites]
To be honest, I don't even think I have the body type that he finds most attractive but (A) he's never said that, and in fact has always said the opposite (B) I know it's not true but I'm not going to actively ask him about it, because I think it's a white lie he tells me which I actually find endearing, and (C) I know he truly and deeply loves me for other reasons and is attracted to me for my qualities, just like I love him for reasons that go beyond the superficial. I also have pretty high self-esteem, I'm confident in how I look, and I know I clean up nice. If I want to, I can look more conventionally attractive by doing things such as wearing my contacts instead of my glasses, getting my eyebrows done, taking time to do my hair and makeup, wearing clothing that emphasizes my best features and skims over the not so good ones, etc.
As for instagram models, neither of us follow any. Me, as a rule, because I don't think it's good for my mental health to compare myself or my life to celebrities and models - I'm more likely to envy them for their jetsetting lifestyle (all that travel and permanent vacation!) rather than their looks. And for my husband, it's because he's just not that active a user of social media. But I do think it'd be disrespectful if he were looking at and liking photos of women on instagram or anywhere else. Not to say that neither of us have ever looked at anybody else and found them attractive (we have, and we've talked about it together sometimes - like a bunch of people upthread said, it can be fun to discuss which celebrities you find hot, etc) but as a general principle, if my partner was actively excessively looking at or liking photos of other women, I would have a problem with it, yeah.
posted by spicytunaroll at 10:15 PM on January 26, 2018 [4 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by machinecraig at 10:43 AM on January 26, 2018 [6 favorites]