How to handle friends who troll without flying off the handle?
January 16, 2018 6:58 AM Subscribe
it seems like the vast majority of my friends enjoy argument-by-trolling and I have a really hard time engaging intellectually without getting actively angry/resentful about flippant responses and/or bad-faith readings. thoughts on how I handle this internally? context inside.
obviously this is something we all have to deal with on the internet everywhere because it's 2018 and everything is terrible, but I have two ongoing group email chains with two different groups of friends, and in both cases (it's worse with one of them) any conversations/disagreements tend to very quickly escalate into trolling and shit-talking.
my friends don't intend this as serious insult/attack; it's just one of their forms of friendly/fun interaction, in conversations in which they don't have a lot of stakes. I don't necessarily have high stakes in the game, either, except that I care a lot of about trying to have good-faith conversations that allow for disagreement, and attempting to practice this ends up getting me laughed at/shit on in a way that makes me feel stupid at best, and actively spiteful toward my best friends at worst.
some examples, varying in degree:
- yesterday I threw an off-hand comment about how I think I'm no longer interested in Disney movies a la Moana because they feel (to me!) like kid's stuff. even as I tried to backpedal/explain this comment I got huge amounts of shit and was called out for "I'm not angry YOU'RE angry" responses. I became increasingly upset and exhausted by the whole thing and eventually wholesale apologized, not so much because I had nothing to say in my defense but because I had nothing to say that I didn't feel would come out as a) condescending or b) actively insulting/angry towards my closest friends.
the key for my here is that their response was fashioned mostly in the form of sarcastic jokes at my expense, which made it hard to respond any way other than defensively/sarcastic-in-kind. another key is that this conversation did not really matter to me, starting as it did from a throw-away comment, but it still really got under my skin.
- earlier today someone in another thread brought up the Aziz Ansari story, specifically in the context of this opinion piece about it. I'm not a fan of that piece, to keep it short and not litigate the conversation in here. this whole movement recently is also something I'm trying very hard to be sensitive and responsive to because I consider myself a feminist and as a white man who considers himself a feminist I feel like it's my obligation to practice that as consciously as possible so as to be part-of-the-solution-not-part-of-etc.
the response from a couple of people was to make fun of/attack me aggressively, first for 1) being part of the "thought police" trying to censor dissent from the #metoo movement, then 2) for being a man trying to "silence" the woman who wrote the piece. the back-and-forth looked something like: I'd write a long-ish paragraph explaining my feelings, and receive a couple of one-sentence responses mocking that response. eventually I peaced out of the conversation with effectively a "fuck you, I know this is fun for you but you know it's not fun for me" and left it at that. but even having done so, it's sticking with me and dragging on my whole emotional state this morning.
the latter situation happened with a group of friends who are really my wife's friends by origin; by this point I'm very close to them, but any time I get into this sort of interaction she gets annoyed or upset with me for my resentful feelings towards her friends.
anyway, to me the question is not how I change (or drop) my friends; it's how I engage in these kinds of conversations moving forward without feeling like I'm going to explode angrily at my friends for treating conversations like games and feeling like I'm walking on eggshells in every email. it's genuinely exhausting, it makes me feel unreasonably sad and frustrated and inarticulate, and I want to be able to say my piece/state my disagreement with a shitty opinion/whatever without feeling tired and beaten up afterwards every time.
obviously this is something we all have to deal with on the internet everywhere because it's 2018 and everything is terrible, but I have two ongoing group email chains with two different groups of friends, and in both cases (it's worse with one of them) any conversations/disagreements tend to very quickly escalate into trolling and shit-talking.
my friends don't intend this as serious insult/attack; it's just one of their forms of friendly/fun interaction, in conversations in which they don't have a lot of stakes. I don't necessarily have high stakes in the game, either, except that I care a lot of about trying to have good-faith conversations that allow for disagreement, and attempting to practice this ends up getting me laughed at/shit on in a way that makes me feel stupid at best, and actively spiteful toward my best friends at worst.
some examples, varying in degree:
- yesterday I threw an off-hand comment about how I think I'm no longer interested in Disney movies a la Moana because they feel (to me!) like kid's stuff. even as I tried to backpedal/explain this comment I got huge amounts of shit and was called out for "I'm not angry YOU'RE angry" responses. I became increasingly upset and exhausted by the whole thing and eventually wholesale apologized, not so much because I had nothing to say in my defense but because I had nothing to say that I didn't feel would come out as a) condescending or b) actively insulting/angry towards my closest friends.
the key for my here is that their response was fashioned mostly in the form of sarcastic jokes at my expense, which made it hard to respond any way other than defensively/sarcastic-in-kind. another key is that this conversation did not really matter to me, starting as it did from a throw-away comment, but it still really got under my skin.
- earlier today someone in another thread brought up the Aziz Ansari story, specifically in the context of this opinion piece about it. I'm not a fan of that piece, to keep it short and not litigate the conversation in here. this whole movement recently is also something I'm trying very hard to be sensitive and responsive to because I consider myself a feminist and as a white man who considers himself a feminist I feel like it's my obligation to practice that as consciously as possible so as to be part-of-the-solution-not-part-of-etc.
the response from a couple of people was to make fun of/attack me aggressively, first for 1) being part of the "thought police" trying to censor dissent from the #metoo movement, then 2) for being a man trying to "silence" the woman who wrote the piece. the back-and-forth looked something like: I'd write a long-ish paragraph explaining my feelings, and receive a couple of one-sentence responses mocking that response. eventually I peaced out of the conversation with effectively a "fuck you, I know this is fun for you but you know it's not fun for me" and left it at that. but even having done so, it's sticking with me and dragging on my whole emotional state this morning.
the latter situation happened with a group of friends who are really my wife's friends by origin; by this point I'm very close to them, but any time I get into this sort of interaction she gets annoyed or upset with me for my resentful feelings towards her friends.
anyway, to me the question is not how I change (or drop) my friends; it's how I engage in these kinds of conversations moving forward without feeling like I'm going to explode angrily at my friends for treating conversations like games and feeling like I'm walking on eggshells in every email. it's genuinely exhausting, it makes me feel unreasonably sad and frustrated and inarticulate, and I want to be able to say my piece/state my disagreement with a shitty opinion/whatever without feeling tired and beaten up afterwards every time.
I'm going to question your goal a bit here. anyway, to me the question is not how I change (or drop) my friends; it's how I engage in these kinds of conversations moving forward without feeling like I'm going to explode angrily at my friends for treating conversations like games and feeling like I'm walking on eggshells in every email
You can't right now. You can't easily change the group culture, and it's not working for you. I would suggest your question should be: how can I disengage from these conversations, and find another outlet for my opinions. In other words, why on earth are you doing this to yourself?
I suggest either don't read the emails entirely, or read them only when you yourself are in a calm place. Same thing for writing them.
The Moana discussion is a great example. I can see how that would blow up among my friends, because "kid's stuff" is loaded with assumptions about the value of children's literature, simple myth structures, etc. But it was really just an expression of your taste and at a calmer moment you would have been able to express that more clearly, either initially or afterwards, and move on emotionally.
But you chose to drop that remark into a group that you know communicates this way. This is not blaming you, but saying...you've given AskMe a clear picture of why that email would blow up and yet you sent it, so something is going on with you.
I'm not sure whether you think they won't be friends with you if you don't, if you are in a SILENT ALL THESE YEARS phase (if so, sympathies), or if something in you is thriving on the drama, like you're at work doing TPS reports and yay, an email arrives and you get a dopamine hit. But I would rethink how, when, and why you are engaging when you know what the results will be.
posted by warriorqueen at 7:21 AM on January 16, 2018 [2 favorites]
You can't right now. You can't easily change the group culture, and it's not working for you. I would suggest your question should be: how can I disengage from these conversations, and find another outlet for my opinions. In other words, why on earth are you doing this to yourself?
I suggest either don't read the emails entirely, or read them only when you yourself are in a calm place. Same thing for writing them.
The Moana discussion is a great example. I can see how that would blow up among my friends, because "kid's stuff" is loaded with assumptions about the value of children's literature, simple myth structures, etc. But it was really just an expression of your taste and at a calmer moment you would have been able to express that more clearly, either initially or afterwards, and move on emotionally.
But you chose to drop that remark into a group that you know communicates this way. This is not blaming you, but saying...you've given AskMe a clear picture of why that email would blow up and yet you sent it, so something is going on with you.
I'm not sure whether you think they won't be friends with you if you don't, if you are in a SILENT ALL THESE YEARS phase (if so, sympathies), or if something in you is thriving on the drama, like you're at work doing TPS reports and yay, an email arrives and you get a dopamine hit. But I would rethink how, when, and why you are engaging when you know what the results will be.
posted by warriorqueen at 7:21 AM on January 16, 2018 [2 favorites]
These people....do not sound like the greatest friends to have?
Can you engage separately from the email chains, just emailing people one at a time? Performative garbage like this tends to diminish when there's no one to perform for.
My experience both observing and participating in these situations is that if you stick to your guns and stay Miss-Manners polite, you win in the long run. People who respond in this manner are either irredeemable shit-stirers or deeply insecure, or both - they're snarking and being assholes because you made them feel like maybe they are Not Awesome because their sense of self is extremely fragile, or because they can't answer your arguments so they want to shout you down.
Make your argument; when people are assholes, respond like a Midwestern Miss Manners: "That's one response, certainly", "I see,", "I'll definitely think about that", etc. I've seen someone parlay this approach into being absolutely terrifying.
The other factor here - they're picking on you because they think sincerity is a sign of weakness, since if you're sincere, someone might pick holes in your arguments and you might even be wrong. They're insecure - possibly because of youth - and they're afraid to advance a straightforward argument. The way to deal with this is to be sincere and then not care what they say.
Of course, this calls into question the value of interacting with them, because it puts you in a pedagogical role rather than a friend role. I find this boring and tend to withdraw from social circles that operate this way, because I'm never learning anything - no one actually argues in good faith, adduces new information, etc, and it gets very dull.
It is okay to say "this feels like 'kids' stuff' to me". I've participated in many, many conversations where people say "I don't like [fandom thing] for [personal reason] because [my feelings]"; friends (and grown-ups) respond to that as "here is a statement about my feelings and opinions; let's explore why I might feel that way and why others might differ". Like, I had that conversation with a friend last Friday, and we sat and kicked around our version of "what is kids' stuff", "why do I feel differently than I used and what does that mean about my experience", "who might feel differently and why" and so on for, like, an hour. People with a handle on their emotions are able to respond to a friend's statement as if it were made in good faith to open a discussion, rather than thinking "how can I grar this into some kind of chan-worthy snarkfest?"
posted by Frowner at 7:39 AM on January 16, 2018 [12 favorites]
Can you engage separately from the email chains, just emailing people one at a time? Performative garbage like this tends to diminish when there's no one to perform for.
My experience both observing and participating in these situations is that if you stick to your guns and stay Miss-Manners polite, you win in the long run. People who respond in this manner are either irredeemable shit-stirers or deeply insecure, or both - they're snarking and being assholes because you made them feel like maybe they are Not Awesome because their sense of self is extremely fragile, or because they can't answer your arguments so they want to shout you down.
Make your argument; when people are assholes, respond like a Midwestern Miss Manners: "That's one response, certainly", "I see,", "I'll definitely think about that", etc. I've seen someone parlay this approach into being absolutely terrifying.
The other factor here - they're picking on you because they think sincerity is a sign of weakness, since if you're sincere, someone might pick holes in your arguments and you might even be wrong. They're insecure - possibly because of youth - and they're afraid to advance a straightforward argument. The way to deal with this is to be sincere and then not care what they say.
Of course, this calls into question the value of interacting with them, because it puts you in a pedagogical role rather than a friend role. I find this boring and tend to withdraw from social circles that operate this way, because I'm never learning anything - no one actually argues in good faith, adduces new information, etc, and it gets very dull.
It is okay to say "this feels like 'kids' stuff' to me". I've participated in many, many conversations where people say "I don't like [fandom thing] for [personal reason] because [my feelings]"; friends (and grown-ups) respond to that as "here is a statement about my feelings and opinions; let's explore why I might feel that way and why others might differ". Like, I had that conversation with a friend last Friday, and we sat and kicked around our version of "what is kids' stuff", "why do I feel differently than I used and what does that mean about my experience", "who might feel differently and why" and so on for, like, an hour. People with a handle on their emotions are able to respond to a friend's statement as if it were made in good faith to open a discussion, rather than thinking "how can I grar this into some kind of chan-worthy snarkfest?"
posted by Frowner at 7:39 AM on January 16, 2018 [12 favorites]
I'd drop these friends like a hot rock, since they sound like jerks who think it's fun to shit on you, but since you say this is not possible, I would respond to every troll-type comment directed my way with "Yeah, okay." That's it. Every single one, whether it's a question directed to you or a comment about something you said, gets "Yeah, okay," and then you move on to the next point/topic. Bore them to death.
posted by rtha at 8:16 AM on January 16, 2018 [13 favorites]
posted by rtha at 8:16 AM on January 16, 2018 [13 favorites]
These group email threads sound like a net loss in terms of positive interactions. Long-term, I'd give serious thought to cultivating other spaces for thoughtful discussion and dialing way back on the percentage of your social time you spend with the Snarky McDevilsAdvocate List.
That said, if you really do think that they "don't intend this as serious insult/attack; it's just one of their forms of friendly/fun interaction", maybe pick a few of the ones that you feel closest to in the group and approach them *individually* and talk to them about something *they said* to you. "Hey, I've been thinking about the other day when we were emailing about llama farming, and I really don't feel good about it. I know that you meant it as friendly teasing, but when you said I obviously had the brains of a llama, it actually really hurt. Do you think that in the future we could try to take a step back from the personal snark on the email?" If they are genuinely meaning to be friendly, they will be sorry they hurt you and try to tone it down. If they really don't care or are just enjoying being jerks, they won't, and you can move on accordingly.
Also, people can't really nitpick the validity of a "that hurt my feelings" like they can a "that's offensive." (to who? I'M not offended! nobody should be offended, there's nothing wrong with X!) But like - "oh, waah, did I hurt your feelings?" "Yes, you did." "You're a baby! That shouldn't hurt your feelings! You need to toughen up!" "That may be true, but that did hurt my feelings." Your feelings are facts that nobody can argue with, and the "that may be true, but it still hurt" is conversational judo where they either need to leave off (win!) or they will be the obvious jerk (still more a win than swallowing it down yourself and just living with it.)
A lot of this performative trolling stuff is done for an AUDIENCE, because people want to impress other people with how clever and cynical and cool they are. If instead they just look like a boor, it removes the fun.
That said, find you some friends who are grown-up enough to allow themselves to have vulnerable, sincere conversations, and you'll likely be happier in the long run.
posted by oblique red at 8:26 AM on January 16, 2018 [2 favorites]
That said, if you really do think that they "don't intend this as serious insult/attack; it's just one of their forms of friendly/fun interaction", maybe pick a few of the ones that you feel closest to in the group and approach them *individually* and talk to them about something *they said* to you. "Hey, I've been thinking about the other day when we were emailing about llama farming, and I really don't feel good about it. I know that you meant it as friendly teasing, but when you said I obviously had the brains of a llama, it actually really hurt. Do you think that in the future we could try to take a step back from the personal snark on the email?" If they are genuinely meaning to be friendly, they will be sorry they hurt you and try to tone it down. If they really don't care or are just enjoying being jerks, they won't, and you can move on accordingly.
Also, people can't really nitpick the validity of a "that hurt my feelings" like they can a "that's offensive." (to who? I'M not offended! nobody should be offended, there's nothing wrong with X!) But like - "oh, waah, did I hurt your feelings?" "Yes, you did." "You're a baby! That shouldn't hurt your feelings! You need to toughen up!" "That may be true, but that did hurt my feelings." Your feelings are facts that nobody can argue with, and the "that may be true, but it still hurt" is conversational judo where they either need to leave off (win!) or they will be the obvious jerk (still more a win than swallowing it down yourself and just living with it.)
A lot of this performative trolling stuff is done for an AUDIENCE, because people want to impress other people with how clever and cynical and cool they are. If instead they just look like a boor, it removes the fun.
That said, find you some friends who are grown-up enough to allow themselves to have vulnerable, sincere conversations, and you'll likely be happier in the long run.
posted by oblique red at 8:26 AM on January 16, 2018 [2 favorites]
Best answer: I don't think you can engage with these email groups-- on these kinds of topics anyhow-- and not have it go south in the way you describe. Even in groups with a really specific focus, if a fraction of participants want to troll, well then they will unless there is a strong prohibition with consequences.
By "these kinds of topics" I mean, both of the examples you give have a good amount of stuff for trolls to latch onto. The first one is a matter of taste and is somewhat negative, giving people an excuse to respond defensively right out of the gate. Or maybe they legitimately feel upset, if they like Moana. The second is more complex, but it comes with a lot of pre-loaded controversy and attitude so that people can flame away without even having to think anything up themselves. For some of the people in the group, each of these is going to look like an invitation. And people who participated aggressively in these threads probably think they went just great.
What do you do if you still want to participate? Go silent for a while and think about what future participation would look like with less risk of controversy. The group of your wife's friends, you want to stay friends with-- or at least she does-- and ending a conversation with "fuck you" or the like is not the way to do that. If you can find a spot where you can honestly say, "Hey, I really like this!" then do so, but not for a while. Trolls on that list are going to think you are doing image control.
posted by BibiRose at 9:14 AM on January 16, 2018
By "these kinds of topics" I mean, both of the examples you give have a good amount of stuff for trolls to latch onto. The first one is a matter of taste and is somewhat negative, giving people an excuse to respond defensively right out of the gate. Or maybe they legitimately feel upset, if they like Moana. The second is more complex, but it comes with a lot of pre-loaded controversy and attitude so that people can flame away without even having to think anything up themselves. For some of the people in the group, each of these is going to look like an invitation. And people who participated aggressively in these threads probably think they went just great.
What do you do if you still want to participate? Go silent for a while and think about what future participation would look like with less risk of controversy. The group of your wife's friends, you want to stay friends with-- or at least she does-- and ending a conversation with "fuck you" or the like is not the way to do that. If you can find a spot where you can honestly say, "Hey, I really like this!" then do so, but not for a while. Trolls on that list are going to think you are doing image control.
posted by BibiRose at 9:14 AM on January 16, 2018
Best answer: I would drop off these email lists in a hot second. I am a person who doesn't engage well with sarcasm or shit-talking, it just isn't my nature, I don't enjoy it, I don't get anything out of it, and when groups that I have been in have engaged in it I have exited the group. I just recently left an "exclusive" FB group because the amount of sarcasm, shitting upon, and bragging had reached peak stupid and I was just done with it.
You can still be friends with folks in a different way, like emailing 1:1, chatting sometimes, hanging out playing board games or whatever, because most people don't troll in person the same way they would online - but seriously I would not even put myself in the position of having to read that shit much less respond to it.
I don't think there's anything you can specifically do that will change this dynamic as is.
posted by fairlynearlyready at 10:50 AM on January 16, 2018 [1 favorite]
You can still be friends with folks in a different way, like emailing 1:1, chatting sometimes, hanging out playing board games or whatever, because most people don't troll in person the same way they would online - but seriously I would not even put myself in the position of having to read that shit much less respond to it.
I don't think there's anything you can specifically do that will change this dynamic as is.
posted by fairlynearlyready at 10:50 AM on January 16, 2018 [1 favorite]
Honestly this doesn't sound like an interaction between friends to me. It's perfectly acceptable, as an adult person, for you to expect that your friends won't make sarcastic jokes about you.
Maybe think about whether this is the kind of friendship you really want in your life.
posted by thereader at 11:16 AM on January 16, 2018 [1 favorite]
Maybe think about whether this is the kind of friendship you really want in your life.
posted by thereader at 11:16 AM on January 16, 2018 [1 favorite]
Best answer: I was probably snarky in a mean-spirited way like your friends when I was in my teens and early twenties. I think I grew out of it (I'm still snarky, but not mean-spirited, I hope). But I get it, and I no longer have much patience for it. There are some people I simply won't engage with because I don't have the patience for their bullshit and life is short. There's one guy I know with whom I will not discuss any topic other than the weather, and I'm pretty sure he's picked up on that.
You did the right thing by disengaging, and it'll get easier with practice.
posted by adamrice at 11:32 AM on January 16, 2018
You did the right thing by disengaging, and it'll get easier with practice.
posted by adamrice at 11:32 AM on January 16, 2018
Best answer: I'd say think about how to engage these friends in other venues. I have a few friends I just CANNOT do social media with for exactly this reason, but we still have a great time hanging out in person. Are these folks like this universally and always, or is it more a function of the culture/vibe of these email chains?
posted by rainbowbrite at 11:40 AM on January 16, 2018
posted by rainbowbrite at 11:40 AM on January 16, 2018
Response by poster: marked some in here as "best" but appreciate all the responses so far -- "disengage politely when stuff goes this route" feels like the right answer to me right now.
some context for future answer-ers:
- everyone in these chains is in their 30s
- the one issue I have with disengaging is that it feels like an act of complicity when the conversation is steered towards various peoples' bad opinions re: feminism/women/politics/whatever. it feels like I'm just relying on privilege to not have to push back on those thoughts or provide my own personal counterpoint
- I appreciate where all of the "drop these friends" is coming from, but I can't/won't really do that with either group, because outside of the context of these emails/the Internet they are my close friends with whom I want to maintain contact. the construction of the email groups in the first place has kept these groups cohesive and close through years of geographical/lifestyle changes and I don't want to lose that
posted by Kybard at 11:43 AM on January 16, 2018
some context for future answer-ers:
- everyone in these chains is in their 30s
- the one issue I have with disengaging is that it feels like an act of complicity when the conversation is steered towards various peoples' bad opinions re: feminism/women/politics/whatever. it feels like I'm just relying on privilege to not have to push back on those thoughts or provide my own personal counterpoint
- I appreciate where all of the "drop these friends" is coming from, but I can't/won't really do that with either group, because outside of the context of these emails/the Internet they are my close friends with whom I want to maintain contact. the construction of the email groups in the first place has kept these groups cohesive and close through years of geographical/lifestyle changes and I don't want to lose that
posted by Kybard at 11:43 AM on January 16, 2018
Ah, the ever-infuriating pick-a-victim-and-pile-on group dynamic, aka pecking party.
It sounds like a long-established dynamic, in which case it'll probably be quite hard to change. You didn't mention if they play this with anyone else in the group; if they do, pointing it out to other group members on a one-on-one basis may help everyone realize what they are reflexively doing, and they might be willing to try changing the dynamic. If it's only you, odds are any attempt by you to discuss this will result in a brushoff at best, more piling on at worst - and at that point, I'd think about why I would want to continue to associate with that group.
This is my family's dynamic, so after a lifetime's experience with it I've developed some coping strategies. The most important thing is learning to recognize it whenever and where ever it occurs. Next is to stop engaging and escalating. Part of that is by thinking about what you want to accomplish by engaging: do you want to express your view, or do you want to change someone else's perspective? If all you care about is stating your viewpoint, then you don't have to engage in much further debate. If you do care, you can set limits as to how much or how long you'll engage. My personal rule for online discussions is three rounds of responses; after the third, I bow out. After all, if we haven't reached consensus by then, it ain't gonna happen. Also, I don't publicly bow out, I just stop responding.
When this happens in real life, I disengage by either changing the subject or, if directly addressed, responding with a disinterested grunt. Eventually, the group looks for a new victim to pick apart.
posted by Lunaloon at 12:57 PM on January 16, 2018 [1 favorite]
It sounds like a long-established dynamic, in which case it'll probably be quite hard to change. You didn't mention if they play this with anyone else in the group; if they do, pointing it out to other group members on a one-on-one basis may help everyone realize what they are reflexively doing, and they might be willing to try changing the dynamic. If it's only you, odds are any attempt by you to discuss this will result in a brushoff at best, more piling on at worst - and at that point, I'd think about why I would want to continue to associate with that group.
This is my family's dynamic, so after a lifetime's experience with it I've developed some coping strategies. The most important thing is learning to recognize it whenever and where ever it occurs. Next is to stop engaging and escalating. Part of that is by thinking about what you want to accomplish by engaging: do you want to express your view, or do you want to change someone else's perspective? If all you care about is stating your viewpoint, then you don't have to engage in much further debate. If you do care, you can set limits as to how much or how long you'll engage. My personal rule for online discussions is three rounds of responses; after the third, I bow out. After all, if we haven't reached consensus by then, it ain't gonna happen. Also, I don't publicly bow out, I just stop responding.
When this happens in real life, I disengage by either changing the subject or, if directly addressed, responding with a disinterested grunt. Eventually, the group looks for a new victim to pick apart.
posted by Lunaloon at 12:57 PM on January 16, 2018 [1 favorite]
“Fair enough.”
“If you say so.”
“You sure like arguing, don’t you?”
posted by STFUDonnie at 7:14 PM on January 16, 2018
“If you say so.”
“You sure like arguing, don’t you?”
posted by STFUDonnie at 7:14 PM on January 16, 2018
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