I need examples of the Bootstrap Paradox
January 1, 2018 3:58 PM Subscribe
I'm looking for time travel stories that contain a bootstrap paradox - that is, objects or information that have no origin, because they only exist in a causal loop.
I'm interested in whether people can readily bring examples to mind, because I'd like to demonstrate to my editor there are at least some readers/viewers who are familiar with the idea. Plus, I'd like a nice long list of stories for me to enjoy.
Films, TV and books are all relevant. A brief explanation of what the particular object or information is would also be lovely.
I'm interested in whether people can readily bring examples to mind, because I'd like to demonstrate to my editor there are at least some readers/viewers who are familiar with the idea. Plus, I'd like a nice long list of stories for me to enjoy.
Films, TV and books are all relevant. A brief explanation of what the particular object or information is would also be lovely.
Not exactly a time travel story but has time travel elements - Beyond the Walls
Spoiler alert
Protagonist inherits house, has mysterious adventure in house which leads to her being left the house in the past so she can have that adventure.
posted by KateViolet at 4:08 PM on January 1, 2018
Spoiler alert
Protagonist inherits house, has mysterious adventure in house which leads to her being left the house in the past so she can have that adventure.
posted by KateViolet at 4:08 PM on January 1, 2018
I believe the villain in The Stainless Steel Rat Saves the World falls into this category. short description here
posted by chr1sb0y at 4:12 PM on January 1, 2018
posted by chr1sb0y at 4:12 PM on January 1, 2018
Spoilers for Tim Powers' The Anubis Gates:
During time travel and body swapping hijinks, the main character of the story, who is a professor specializing in a poet from a former era (including memorizing many of his works including his best poem) turns out to have been that poet all along. He scribbles the poem down in a fit of boredom and later recognizes it as the original manuscript of the poem in his time. The poem he memorized thus has no real origin.
posted by PussKillian at 4:19 PM on January 1, 2018 [2 favorites]
During time travel and body swapping hijinks, the main character of the story, who is a professor specializing in a poet from a former era (including memorizing many of his works including his best poem) turns out to have been that poet all along. He scribbles the poem down in a fit of boredom and later recognizes it as the original manuscript of the poem in his time. The poem he memorized thus has no real origin.
posted by PussKillian at 4:19 PM on January 1, 2018 [2 favorites]
Tv tropes to the rescue and then back to the problem when you realize you've fallen down the hole.
posted by hobgadling at 4:26 PM on January 1, 2018
posted by hobgadling at 4:26 PM on January 1, 2018
Also. Scotty describing how to make transparent aluminum in Star Trek IV.
posted by neilbert at 4:26 PM on January 1, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by neilbert at 4:26 PM on January 1, 2018 [2 favorites]
Not a story, but there’s an episode of Doctor Who that begins with the Doctor doing a monologue about it: https://youtu.be/u4SEDzynMiQ
posted by betweenthebars at 4:26 PM on January 1, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by betweenthebars at 4:26 PM on January 1, 2018 [3 favorites]
The Man Who Folded Himself by David Gerrold.
posted by Rash at 4:28 PM on January 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by Rash at 4:28 PM on January 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
Bill and Ted introduce Rufus by name to their past selves, who call him Rufus throughout, finally introducing him at the end of their Excellent Adventure.
Rufus never tells them his name.
posted by Wrinkled Stumpskin at 4:31 PM on January 1, 2018 [19 favorites]
Rufus never tells them his name.
posted by Wrinkled Stumpskin at 4:31 PM on January 1, 2018 [19 favorites]
I'd like to demonstrate to my editor there are at least some readers/viewers who are familiar with the idea
In 2017 dollars, Terminator made about 190 million at the box office and Terminator 2 made about USD 950M. People have heard of this stuff.
There's also a connected set of Futurama episodes that deal with Fry being his own grandfather which allowed him to save the universe.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 4:43 PM on January 1, 2018 [3 favorites]
In 2017 dollars, Terminator made about 190 million at the box office and Terminator 2 made about USD 950M. People have heard of this stuff.
There's also a connected set of Futurama episodes that deal with Fry being his own grandfather which allowed him to save the universe.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 4:43 PM on January 1, 2018 [3 favorites]
This paradox is specifically referenced (though not by name) about 20 pages into The Time Travelers Wife. It involves a list of dates which the time traveler memorizes from a piece of paper; he then travels back in time and dictates that memorized list of dates to the person who writes them down on that piece of paper.
I can get you the exact quote later tonight.
posted by Winnie the Proust at 5:45 PM on January 1, 2018
I can get you the exact quote later tonight.
posted by Winnie the Proust at 5:45 PM on January 1, 2018
neilbert: Scotty describing how to make transparent aluminum in Star Trek IV.
The same film has a "physical object" example, although it's ambiguous and may amount to wishful thinking on the characters' part. Kirk pawns a watch while Spock points out it was a gift from McCoy, and Kirk replies "It will be again, that's the beauty of it."
posted by InTheYear2017 at 6:13 PM on January 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
The same film has a "physical object" example, although it's ambiguous and may amount to wishful thinking on the characters' part. Kirk pawns a watch while Spock points out it was a gift from McCoy, and Kirk replies "It will be again, that's the beauty of it."
posted by InTheYear2017 at 6:13 PM on January 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
Oops, I missed the edit window to correct this: It's a pair of spectacles, not a watch.
posted by InTheYear2017 at 6:23 PM on January 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by InTheYear2017 at 6:23 PM on January 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
I'm not totally sure this is an example, but there's Data's head in the Star Trek: TNG episode Time's Arrow.
posted by hoyland at 6:34 PM on January 1, 2018
posted by hoyland at 6:34 PM on January 1, 2018
Ted Chiang's The Merchant and the Alchemist's Gate is a fantastic time travel story that I'm 90% hits your criteria, but can't find a complete enough summary to confirm.
posted by Nonsteroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drug at 7:04 PM on January 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by Nonsteroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drug at 7:04 PM on January 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
Timecrimes is a quirky Spanish movie that deals with several seemingly unrelated events over the span of a few hours that turn out to be part of a few time loops.
posted by quinndexter at 7:10 PM on January 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by quinndexter at 7:10 PM on January 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
Lost: I don't remember the details, but I think there is a trinket (a knife, a compass) that Locke gives to young Locke via batmanuel.
posted by kandinski at 7:10 PM on January 1, 2018
posted by kandinski at 7:10 PM on January 1, 2018
There was a book titled Them Bones by Howard Waldrop that basically fit that structure. It’s been a long time since I read it, so I might be wrong.
First Contact seems to play that role with respect to the rest of the Star Trek franchise.
posted by adamrice at 7:14 PM on January 1, 2018
First Contact seems to play that role with respect to the rest of the Star Trek franchise.
posted by adamrice at 7:14 PM on January 1, 2018
A different genre than you asked for, but the Enchanter text adventure trilogy has two. In Sorcerer, a time-traveling version of the player character tells you a lock combination; this combination gains you access to the spell to travel in time, which you use to tell your younger self the combination. In Spellbreaker, an extremely useful pocket-dimensional storage you find early in the game turns out to have been left there, a long time ago, by a time-traveling version of yourself further on in your adventures (the player themself leaves it there, so it is obviously the same object, and has no origin outside of the player taking it from the present to the past).
posted by jackbishop at 7:33 PM on January 1, 2018
posted by jackbishop at 7:33 PM on January 1, 2018
Oh, and, of course, on the same note, the umbrella in Infocom's Trinity: lost by an old woman with burn scars in near-future Hyde Park, and taken by the player-character on an adventure hopping through time and space to eventually be given to a young girl in Nagasaki in 1945.
posted by jackbishop at 7:39 PM on January 1, 2018
posted by jackbishop at 7:39 PM on January 1, 2018
12 Monkey's
posted by j_curiouser at 8:10 PM on January 1, 2018
posted by j_curiouser at 8:10 PM on January 1, 2018
Spoilers for Tim Powers' The Anubis Gates:
Thank you, PussKillian for reminding me of how Anubis Gates resolves. I was trying to explain it the other night ... and failed badly.
Also, relevant to the question -- yes, Anubis Gates is fundamentally a Bootstrap Paradox.
posted by philip-random at 8:15 PM on January 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
Thank you, PussKillian for reminding me of how Anubis Gates resolves. I was trying to explain it the other night ... and failed badly.
Also, relevant to the question -- yes, Anubis Gates is fundamentally a Bootstrap Paradox.
posted by philip-random at 8:15 PM on January 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
The high priest in Pratchett’s Pyramids exists only in a time loop.
posted by monotreme at 8:33 PM on January 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by monotreme at 8:33 PM on January 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
Absolutely Inflexible by Robert Silverberg. “To go all these years—and find you. Talk about wild improbabilities!”
posted by ovvl at 8:56 PM on January 1, 2018
posted by ovvl at 8:56 PM on January 1, 2018
Steins;gate. "After" changing the past, characters sometimes remember "previous" versions of events that "now" never happened. Characters sometimes send their memories back in time. The memories that arrive in the past paradoxically don't include the fact that they arrived before they were sent.
posted by grobstein at 9:16 PM on January 1, 2018
posted by grobstein at 9:16 PM on January 1, 2018
Primer is basically a prolonged meditation on the paradoxes of time travel.
posted by miyabo at 9:39 PM on January 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by miyabo at 9:39 PM on January 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
"Palimpsest" by MeFite Charles Stross, a novella (found in his collection "Wireless") about a kind of time-travel agent/enforcer.
Nota bene that Heinlein's "All You Zombies" and the movie "Predestination" are the same story; I'd probably read the short story first, but don't skip out on the movie. You'll get the head-breaking ending either way, but the written version is more head-breaking.
posted by Sunburnt at 10:55 PM on January 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
Nota bene that Heinlein's "All You Zombies" and the movie "Predestination" are the same story; I'd probably read the short story first, but don't skip out on the movie. You'll get the head-breaking ending either way, but the written version is more head-breaking.
posted by Sunburnt at 10:55 PM on January 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
Homestuck has a number of items known as jujus that embody this paradox. This animation tracks the progress of one such item, a creepy puppet named Lil' Cal. (Mega spoilers, though none of it will probably make sense to you if you haven't read Homestuck before.)
posted by divabat at 11:13 PM on January 1, 2018
posted by divabat at 11:13 PM on January 1, 2018
In the 2016 film Arrival, the main character (played by Amy Adams) is able to avert an international crisis in the present with information that she was given in the future — because of her role in averting the crisis.
It was an award-winning film that earned $203 million at the box office, so there’s evidence of cultural exposure for your editor.
posted by bettafish at 4:10 AM on January 2, 2018 [1 favorite]
It was an award-winning film that earned $203 million at the box office, so there’s evidence of cultural exposure for your editor.
posted by bettafish at 4:10 AM on January 2, 2018 [1 favorite]
My husband and I are discussing whether Pulp Fiction has a time loop or whether it's just edited to end in the middle.
posted by DarthDuckie at 5:29 AM on January 2, 2018
posted by DarthDuckie at 5:29 AM on January 2, 2018
Lister from Red Dwarf is found as a baby/puts his infant self in a cardboard box under the pool table the Aigburth Arms pub in Liverpool
posted by 5_13_23_42_69_666 at 5:34 AM on January 2, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by 5_13_23_42_69_666 at 5:34 AM on January 2, 2018 [1 favorite]
Thing is that most media, including most examples in this thread I think, tend to paper over or ignore the paradox rather than highlighting it. So, while people are certainly aware of stories that include the bootstrap paradox, your editor could be right that they're not aware of the bootstrap paradox.
posted by grobstein at 8:52 AM on January 2, 2018
posted by grobstein at 8:52 AM on January 2, 2018
Response by poster: Just to clarify - I'm interested in whether people can readily bring examples to mind, not whether the paradox is implicit/explicit in the text. Papered over examples are fine!
And thanks for all the suggestions so far!
posted by Ballad of Peckham Rye at 9:22 AM on January 2, 2018
And thanks for all the suggestions so far!
posted by Ballad of Peckham Rye at 9:22 AM on January 2, 2018
The Netflix show Dark is basically exactly this. I don't want to give it away so just trust me and watch it!
posted by masquesoporfavor at 10:14 AM on January 2, 2018
posted by masquesoporfavor at 10:14 AM on January 2, 2018
I'm not totally sure this is an example, but there's Data's head in the Star Trek: TNG episode Time's Arrow.
FYI It's not. Data loses his head in the past while his body is recovered to the present. His head sits for hundreds of years and is eventually reconnected to his significantly younger body. They hand-wave some "deterioration" as a result of sitting around but presumably he carries on the rest of the series with a 30-something year old body and a 500-odd year old head to no ill effects.
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 2:43 PM on January 2, 2018
FYI It's not. Data loses his head in the past while his body is recovered to the present. His head sits for hundreds of years and is eventually reconnected to his significantly younger body. They hand-wave some "deterioration" as a result of sitting around but presumably he carries on the rest of the series with a 30-something year old body and a 500-odd year old head to no ill effects.
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 2:43 PM on January 2, 2018
Maaaaybe this one: Kathryn Rusch's "Red Letter Day", it's a good story anyhow.
posted by daisystomper at 2:52 PM on January 2, 2018
posted by daisystomper at 2:52 PM on January 2, 2018
Does the Doctor's fez in The Day of the Doctor work? The Eleventh Doctor finds it on display in the Undergallery in 2013, tosses it through the time fissure to the War Doctor on the last day of the Time War, and the War Doctor tosses it through to the Tenth and Eleventh Doctors in 1562. Because of its adventure with and significance to the Doctor, it's then presumably collected by UNIT and placed in the Undergallery. And so on.
Needless to say, the events are depicted in a slightly different order in the show. But the fez seems to exist in its own time-loop. Unless I missed something?
posted by Devoidoid at 8:23 AM on January 3, 2018
Needless to say, the events are depicted in a slightly different order in the show. But the fez seems to exist in its own time-loop. Unless I missed something?
posted by Devoidoid at 8:23 AM on January 3, 2018
This thread is closed to new comments.
Maybe Marty McFly playing Chuck Berry to Marvin Berry qualifies?
posted by synecdoche at 4:06 PM on January 1, 2018 [3 favorites]