"Lovingly" mock a kid with feigned abandonment - is there a word for it?
December 5, 2017 4:34 AM Subscribe
I wonder if there's an accurate, descriptive word for this kind of parenting behaviour: feigning abandonment of a child, but with tease and "humorous", instead of anger and threat. Can I find more literature on this?
This is a story my mother used to recount to me. I don't have first-hand memory about it, because it happened probably when I was 2 or 3. In this episode the parents, auntie, and granny surrounded me, and one of them informed me with adult seriousness that they had no choice but sell me now, because we'd run out of money and the only way to keep everyone fed would be to sell me to baby-buyers. They then watched how I'd respond, and I was described as in great distress but unable to speak or cry. After a while like this I finally broke the silence, which was like "Will you sell Mommy and me together?" And then the adults would laugh and hug me and tell me all of this was a joke and they loved me and would never do that.
I also remember those episodes from later in the childhood, when my mother would show me much love with smiles and cuddles while, at the same time, making abandonment teases (like "My dearest boy, Mom will definitely abandon you!").
I now have this feeling that those kind of experiences have personal significance for me. I'd like to search for similar stories on the Internet to see if there's anyone who could relate, but I can't seem to find the keywords. Stuff like "mock abandonment" will bring up stories about angry parent threatening to pack and leave.
Are those experience so rare that we lack a name for them? They do feel bizarre in retrospect. It felt as if the adults had had this strange obsession with abandonment probably due to their own unresolved issues, and they'd act them out in inappropriate and bizarre "jokes" (at my expense, apparently). Is this common enough to find more testimonials? (Blog posts, case studies in journal papers, etc.?)
This is a story my mother used to recount to me. I don't have first-hand memory about it, because it happened probably when I was 2 or 3. In this episode the parents, auntie, and granny surrounded me, and one of them informed me with adult seriousness that they had no choice but sell me now, because we'd run out of money and the only way to keep everyone fed would be to sell me to baby-buyers. They then watched how I'd respond, and I was described as in great distress but unable to speak or cry. After a while like this I finally broke the silence, which was like "Will you sell Mommy and me together?" And then the adults would laugh and hug me and tell me all of this was a joke and they loved me and would never do that.
I also remember those episodes from later in the childhood, when my mother would show me much love with smiles and cuddles while, at the same time, making abandonment teases (like "My dearest boy, Mom will definitely abandon you!").
I now have this feeling that those kind of experiences have personal significance for me. I'd like to search for similar stories on the Internet to see if there's anyone who could relate, but I can't seem to find the keywords. Stuff like "mock abandonment" will bring up stories about angry parent threatening to pack and leave.
Are those experience so rare that we lack a name for them? They do feel bizarre in retrospect. It felt as if the adults had had this strange obsession with abandonment probably due to their own unresolved issues, and they'd act them out in inappropriate and bizarre "jokes" (at my expense, apparently). Is this common enough to find more testimonials? (Blog posts, case studies in journal papers, etc.?)
Response by poster: Thank you. I now understand that this was abusive, but "emotional abuse" could mean quite different things. I'd like to find some kind of search keywords so that I'd be able to see what others have to say about their similar experiences or observations.
The really bizarre part is the kind of "theatrical" and "scripted" feeling to it. There was totally no anger or threat, no apparent conflict as triggers.
posted by runcifex at 4:47 AM on December 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
The really bizarre part is the kind of "theatrical" and "scripted" feeling to it. There was totally no anger or threat, no apparent conflict as triggers.
posted by runcifex at 4:47 AM on December 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
I don't know if you'll find precisely what you're looking for but try googling "sell your kids to the gypsies" to see a lot of people talking about (usually less elaborate) conversations in which their parents threatened to sell their kids. That's the phrase my Dad always used when he was going to sell us, but it was in a way less emotionally abusive manner than you're describing.
posted by jacquilynne at 5:00 AM on December 5, 2017 [24 favorites]
posted by jacquilynne at 5:00 AM on December 5, 2017 [24 favorites]
Yeah, what you're describing in your post seems unusual and not common enough to find other stories on the internet, and if it does exist on a cultural level (more than just your family did it) this sort of thing is probably something very specific to one culture.
A possible similar event, which I've both seen and done:
A parent is at a restaurant or store or park, and the child will not listen/follow/leave, so the adult just walks away and says something like "OK, bye, see you later, I have to go now..." They don't actually leave, of course, but maybe get beyond where the child can see them, and there's usually two outcomes: the child screams "NO DON'T LEAVE ME" and runs after the parent; or the parent returns after a short wait, sighs, rolls their eyes, and begrudgingly picks their child up (who begins to scream "NO") and carries the child off. Not saying it's "good" parenting, but it's something more common in my circles than what you had described.
I don't know of a specific name for it, but describing it might hint in the right direction.
my one thousandth AskMe answer!
posted by AzraelBrown at 5:10 AM on December 5, 2017 [8 favorites]
A possible similar event, which I've both seen and done:
A parent is at a restaurant or store or park, and the child will not listen/follow/leave, so the adult just walks away and says something like "OK, bye, see you later, I have to go now..." They don't actually leave, of course, but maybe get beyond where the child can see them, and there's usually two outcomes: the child screams "NO DON'T LEAVE ME" and runs after the parent; or the parent returns after a short wait, sighs, rolls their eyes, and begrudgingly picks their child up (who begins to scream "NO") and carries the child off. Not saying it's "good" parenting, but it's something more common in my circles than what you had described.
I don't know of a specific name for it, but describing it might hint in the right direction.
my one thousandth AskMe answer!
posted by AzraelBrown at 5:10 AM on December 5, 2017 [8 favorites]
My parents would say they'd take us back to k-mart and ask about the 5000 day return policy. I'm sure I wasn't the only kid who heard this kind of thing.
I googled return kids to the store threat and the first result is this, #1 on an Atlantic listicle of 12 ways to screw up your kids.
posted by phunniemee at 5:17 AM on December 5, 2017 [10 favorites]
I googled return kids to the store threat and the first result is this, #1 on an Atlantic listicle of 12 ways to screw up your kids.
posted by phunniemee at 5:17 AM on December 5, 2017 [10 favorites]
Best answer: I know a lot of cultures have weird "I'll sell you to the (baby buyers, roma, other often racist threat etc)" scripts as a way to scare to naughty children, but saying you have to get rid of kids because you can't afford to feed the whole family seems super culturally specific. The stuff with your mom praising you then saying she'll need to leave reminds me of a lot of Evil Eye stuff where you don't praise children or demons will steal them. If I had to guess I would say this is some combination of a cultural meme and your family members ritually play-acting out needing to abandon children and then making a big production of not having to, because that happy ending may not have been true in past generations. A really horrible joke/celebration of better fortune that you would have been too young to understand and that your family didn't process thoroughly enough to realize would be traumatic to a young child. It might help to google regional specifics, regional history (eg if there was a famine or a lot of trafficking or kids being drafted to go to the poorhouse/workhouse in your grandmother or great-grandmother's generations) or google some of their specific phrases, in English or any other language they might have used.
posted by moonlight on vermont at 5:18 AM on December 5, 2017 [25 favorites]
posted by moonlight on vermont at 5:18 AM on December 5, 2017 [25 favorites]
The word I'd use is "sadism."
posted by Obscure Reference at 6:07 AM on December 5, 2017 [11 favorites]
posted by Obscure Reference at 6:07 AM on December 5, 2017 [11 favorites]
Best answer: How very odd. Moonlight on vermont's explanation sounds very plausible to me and I agree that you'd want to search on regionally specific history and phrasing to see what the historical roots of that sort of anxiety could be.
Phunniemee and azraelbrown's examples of variations on this theme are different because they don't include the resource deprivation aspect. They are expressions of (uniquitous, normal) tension on the part of irritated parents resulting from the kid's behaving in an annoying way. Expressing the irritation as a joke allows it to dissipate (generally harmlessly.) But the anxiety expressed in your example seems not to involve any dissatisfaction with your behavior, and instead refers to a pretended poverty.
It seems very likely to me that this little ritual has roots in a cultural history of actual poverty and a resulting anxiety about the thought of abandoning children (whether or not children were actually abandoned, acute poverty can provoke anxiety about the specter of the possibility.)
Good luck researching it. I hope it didn't scar you. Families do act out their mishegas on their children in some very cruel ways.
posted by fingersandtoes at 6:41 AM on December 5, 2017 [7 favorites]
Phunniemee and azraelbrown's examples of variations on this theme are different because they don't include the resource deprivation aspect. They are expressions of (uniquitous, normal) tension on the part of irritated parents resulting from the kid's behaving in an annoying way. Expressing the irritation as a joke allows it to dissipate (generally harmlessly.) But the anxiety expressed in your example seems not to involve any dissatisfaction with your behavior, and instead refers to a pretended poverty.
It seems very likely to me that this little ritual has roots in a cultural history of actual poverty and a resulting anxiety about the thought of abandoning children (whether or not children were actually abandoned, acute poverty can provoke anxiety about the specter of the possibility.)
Good luck researching it. I hope it didn't scar you. Families do act out their mishegas on their children in some very cruel ways.
posted by fingersandtoes at 6:41 AM on December 5, 2017 [7 favorites]
Wow. I thought this would be something like threatening to leave a kid behind if they won’t walk with you in the store. This sounds more like making a kid really upset to entertain others. The people who do stuff like post videos of kids upset that their parents got rid of all their Halloween candy seem to think this is okay, but I don’t. I don’t think it’s OK to cause someone significant distress for entertainment.
posted by Anne Neville at 7:25 AM on December 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by Anne Neville at 7:25 AM on December 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
My mother used to roll her eyes and say she ought to trade me in for a lawnmower. But it was definitly meant (and taken) as wry and even affectionate. I agree that the humorous version is pretty common, but an actual test threat is probably not common enough to have a name. (If I were searching I'd just look for "threats of abandonment," and this "hah hah, no we didn't mean it" version would probably be a subset.)
posted by acm at 7:27 AM on December 5, 2017
posted by acm at 7:27 AM on December 5, 2017
I've heard this from my family, and it didn't really mess me up, but it seemed to me it was more in the spirit of not praising/being happy about a child for fear that they would be taken away or die. Like moonlightonvermont said. Sort of a "the gods don't like to see mortals too happy" thing. Somehow I understood that I was deeply loved and they would never sell me.
posted by fiercecupcake at 7:44 AM on December 5, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by fiercecupcake at 7:44 AM on December 5, 2017 [2 favorites]
I think it makes a difference here that you were really upset. If you hadn’t been, then it could have worked as a joke. If it were intended that way but you got really upset, I’d like to think that a non-abusive person would have been horrified and quickly explained to you that it was meant as a joke, and apologized for upsetting you. I think it’s significant that that didn’t happen.
posted by Anne Neville at 8:08 AM on December 5, 2017 [7 favorites]
posted by Anne Neville at 8:08 AM on December 5, 2017 [7 favorites]
Seconding what Anne Neville is saying about the intent to scare you being important. I think you can joke with kids about ridiculous scenarios, but the key would be that the kids are in on the jokes and think it is funny. In that case the joke is that the kids know right away that you're proposing something unrealistic and fantastical and it's a funny scenario to think about. If the joke is "maybe I'm actually going to be abandoned by my parents" it's no longer a joke. So this distinction might make it harder to research what you're looking for.
posted by LKWorking at 8:18 AM on December 5, 2017
posted by LKWorking at 8:18 AM on December 5, 2017
Agree with much of what has been said upthread. I would want to ask your mom and siblings -- "Dude, what is your childhood trauma?" It sounds like they could have had a parent who did fail to provide for them, or something similar.
I don't know what would find you scientific studies, other than the very broad term "attachment disorder", but for artistic depictions of a related scenario, you might want to put "Hansel and Gretel" in your search terms. Also, for historical true and fictional stories, you might look up "orphan trains".
In semi-modern culture where I live (Calif), the fantastical threat would be "sell you to the gypsies" and a more sincere, realistic threat would be "send you to military or boarding school." Still a rejection.
posted by puddledork at 8:27 AM on December 5, 2017 [2 favorites]
I don't know what would find you scientific studies, other than the very broad term "attachment disorder", but for artistic depictions of a related scenario, you might want to put "Hansel and Gretel" in your search terms. Also, for historical true and fictional stories, you might look up "orphan trains".
In semi-modern culture where I live (Calif), the fantastical threat would be "sell you to the gypsies" and a more sincere, realistic threat would be "send you to military or boarding school." Still a rejection.
posted by puddledork at 8:27 AM on December 5, 2017 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: Thank you all for your support in this thread. This is a very unpleasant topic and I appreciate that you bear with me.
Indeed this looks like a kind of generational thing and what I have in memory are only a few pieces of the puzzle. I was thinking (or more accurately, ruminating) about it in very personal terms but there could be a more anthropological angle to it.
When I think of it as a family myth, it more or less went like this: Once upon a time there was this good innocent family. They had this child, the focus of their love. A natural disaster / poverty befell them. In despair, they were tempted by evil (or necessity, which is a kind of evil) to sacrifice their weakest and most beloved member. But in the end, they were saved, and all was well that ended well. Viewed like this it may appear somewhat less delusional, and easier to connect with cultural universals on some level.
About the famine / human trafficking themes, I can only say they do have some roots in local history. However, right now I don't think I'm ready to explore how they (or the mere panic thereof) took shape in my particular family's generation dynamics. I keep getting drawn into the past of growing up among very insecure adults and it's unhealthy. Right now I need to take care of my own stuff. Revisiting the abyss sounds scary.
posted by runcifex at 8:38 AM on December 5, 2017 [4 favorites]
Indeed this looks like a kind of generational thing and what I have in memory are only a few pieces of the puzzle. I was thinking (or more accurately, ruminating) about it in very personal terms but there could be a more anthropological angle to it.
When I think of it as a family myth, it more or less went like this: Once upon a time there was this good innocent family. They had this child, the focus of their love. A natural disaster / poverty befell them. In despair, they were tempted by evil (or necessity, which is a kind of evil) to sacrifice their weakest and most beloved member. But in the end, they were saved, and all was well that ended well. Viewed like this it may appear somewhat less delusional, and easier to connect with cultural universals on some level.
About the famine / human trafficking themes, I can only say they do have some roots in local history. However, right now I don't think I'm ready to explore how they (or the mere panic thereof) took shape in my particular family's generation dynamics. I keep getting drawn into the past of growing up among very insecure adults and it's unhealthy. Right now I need to take care of my own stuff. Revisiting the abyss sounds scary.
posted by runcifex at 8:38 AM on December 5, 2017 [4 favorites]
I think some parents think that, because the world is tough, they need to toughen up their kids to deal with it and this kind of "joking" is the best way they can think of to do it. And yeah, it is unhealthy.
Were you a sensitive kid? If so this might have been their misguided attempt to teach you to let things roll off of you.
posted by selfmedicating at 9:42 AM on December 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
Were you a sensitive kid? If so this might have been their misguided attempt to teach you to let things roll off of you.
posted by selfmedicating at 9:42 AM on December 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
Best answer: My parents did something almost identical to this--they would tell me very seriously, when I was a very young child, that they had found me on the side of the road and that I wasn't biologically theirs' and come up with an elaborate story around it and when I got upset, they would start laughing. It was definitely something they perceived as a prank or a joke, not at all intentionally abusive. I think they just didn't have much empathy for how young children perceive the world and react to things authority figures tell them. There are a lot of adults who enjoy upsetting young children because there are a lot of things that upset children that wouldn't upset adults and they enjoy the ridiculousness in it and also, probably, on a very buried level, the power aspect. I feel like I see this kind of behavior a lot.
I was born in the 1990s and my parents are Baby Boomers but they grew up in a completely different culture with much harsher child-rearing practices, so that might have something to do with it.
posted by armadillo1224 at 9:53 AM on December 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
I was born in the 1990s and my parents are Baby Boomers but they grew up in a completely different culture with much harsher child-rearing practices, so that might have something to do with it.
posted by armadillo1224 at 9:53 AM on December 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
Best answer: One thing that can really help in situations like this is to remember that your parents are flawed. They were probably making things up as they went along.
It is very common for parents to kind of forget how literal children can be, and how much they remember, so they fuck up sometimes, say something inappropriate or stupid, or tell a joke to a kid who still takes things literally.
Every well meaning parent fucks up and says or does something that traumatizes their child at some point. Sometimes in big ways, sometimes little, some do it more than others.
Losing your child is a pretty universal horror in every human culture, and in many if not all animal cultures as well. Sometimes, just voicing or joking about those fears can seem to make them a little less ominous.
And another way the brain deals with fears like that is with dark impulses. Like when you're in a socially tense situation, and your brain starts thinking of the most horrifically inappropriate thing you could do in this situation, usually something sexual or violent or repulsive.
And affectionate jokes about abandonment are pretty common, in my experience, but I've mostly only seen or done that with people who know it's a joke.
Maybe it's a form of dimorphous expression, like when people react to overwhelming affection with playfully violent impulses.
They shouldn't have joked like that in front of you, because that's a near universal fear for small children. They probably didn't realize how traumatic that could be for a little kid. It doesn't seem like they'd be telling the story like that if they knew. Are they still around? Have you asked them why they did that?
posted by ernielundquist at 10:29 AM on December 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
It is very common for parents to kind of forget how literal children can be, and how much they remember, so they fuck up sometimes, say something inappropriate or stupid, or tell a joke to a kid who still takes things literally.
Every well meaning parent fucks up and says or does something that traumatizes their child at some point. Sometimes in big ways, sometimes little, some do it more than others.
Losing your child is a pretty universal horror in every human culture, and in many if not all animal cultures as well. Sometimes, just voicing or joking about those fears can seem to make them a little less ominous.
And another way the brain deals with fears like that is with dark impulses. Like when you're in a socially tense situation, and your brain starts thinking of the most horrifically inappropriate thing you could do in this situation, usually something sexual or violent or repulsive.
And affectionate jokes about abandonment are pretty common, in my experience, but I've mostly only seen or done that with people who know it's a joke.
Maybe it's a form of dimorphous expression, like when people react to overwhelming affection with playfully violent impulses.
They shouldn't have joked like that in front of you, because that's a near universal fear for small children. They probably didn't realize how traumatic that could be for a little kid. It doesn't seem like they'd be telling the story like that if they knew. Are they still around? Have you asked them why they did that?
posted by ernielundquist at 10:29 AM on December 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
I keep getting drawn into the past of growing up among very insecure adults and it's unhealthy. Right now I need to take care of my own stuff. Revisiting the abyss sounds scary.
I feel you on this, and it's 100% your choice to delve into that only if and when you feel like it's right to. Sometimes it can help, because you learn that there were very definite, concrete reasons for your family to have had these emotional issues, that were very definitely, concretely, not your fault or your doing. But if you're in a place where going down that road of learning about that kind of intergenerational trauma is only going to make you more enmeshed with your family's emotions, it can make those feelings of being a child responsible for messed up adults' wellbeing worse, and just generally, like you said, suck you back into the pit of being totally consumed by the older generation's emotional issues. Good luck, and take care.
posted by moonlight on vermont at 10:38 AM on December 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
I feel you on this, and it's 100% your choice to delve into that only if and when you feel like it's right to. Sometimes it can help, because you learn that there were very definite, concrete reasons for your family to have had these emotional issues, that were very definitely, concretely, not your fault or your doing. But if you're in a place where going down that road of learning about that kind of intergenerational trauma is only going to make you more enmeshed with your family's emotions, it can make those feelings of being a child responsible for messed up adults' wellbeing worse, and just generally, like you said, suck you back into the pit of being totally consumed by the older generation's emotional issues. Good luck, and take care.
posted by moonlight on vermont at 10:38 AM on December 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
I don't know if this applies to your parents but there are lot of people who think that if a kid knows to respond in the socially appropriate way to jokes, it means they understand those jokes. especially with sarcasm, people have absolutely no idea how often children take them literally. the kid laughs or ignores it because they have picked up that this is what you're supposed to do when these things are said. doesn't mean they really understand the concept of saying things that you don't mean, specifically because you don't mean them. meanwhile the parents think they have a comfortable affectionate family inside joke.
people do this with all sort of things besides abandonment. it's great to use insults and compliments interchangeably with your grownup friends and trust that everybody knows you mean the opposite every time. but it can fuck a kid up pretty good and also teach them never to admit they don't know whether you're serious, because that means you don't understand jokes. and in fact the lasting effect may be that they really don't understand jokes very well, because their immediate response to a joke becomes not "is this funny" but "am I supposed to laugh."
and parents like this always think that it's only other people's unclever oversensitive children who have this problem, not their own.
but also, some parents really do get a kick out of lying to children to laugh at their gullibility and distress. this doesn't have to come from genuine sadism but it can. it can also come from a mistaken idea of how quickly children forget upsetting experiences, I think, or from just not thinking at all.
posted by queenofbithynia at 10:49 AM on December 5, 2017 [11 favorites]
people do this with all sort of things besides abandonment. it's great to use insults and compliments interchangeably with your grownup friends and trust that everybody knows you mean the opposite every time. but it can fuck a kid up pretty good and also teach them never to admit they don't know whether you're serious, because that means you don't understand jokes. and in fact the lasting effect may be that they really don't understand jokes very well, because their immediate response to a joke becomes not "is this funny" but "am I supposed to laugh."
and parents like this always think that it's only other people's unclever oversensitive children who have this problem, not their own.
but also, some parents really do get a kick out of lying to children to laugh at their gullibility and distress. this doesn't have to come from genuine sadism but it can. it can also come from a mistaken idea of how quickly children forget upsetting experiences, I think, or from just not thinking at all.
posted by queenofbithynia at 10:49 AM on December 5, 2017 [11 favorites]
That sounds like an awful experience and I recommend you read "The Drama of Being a Child" by Alice Miller, having just read it myself and found it very helpful. It deals with exactly this kind of issue (amongst others).
posted by barracuda at 11:04 AM on December 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by barracuda at 11:04 AM on December 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
I just have to second barracuda's recommendation of Alice Miller. In addition to reading her books I bet that if you google you will find people discussing her work and telling personal stories VERY similar to yours.
posted by selfmedicating at 11:14 AM on December 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by selfmedicating at 11:14 AM on December 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
Best answer: I did graduate work in public health within some profoundly unstable, poor, rural groups that have been suffering from poor access to healthcare since the Partition of India. This sounds very familiar--I see I'm not the only one making this kind of connection to historical crises.
In any case, this is a question for a counselor or therapist if one is available to you. Anonymous advice on the internet isn't quite equipped to give you the tools you need to explore this issue thoroughly or healthily. Self-directed therapy might not be advisable.
The people who do stuff like post videos of kids upset that their parents got rid of all their Halloween candy seem to think this is okay, but I don’t. I don’t think it’s OK to cause someone significant distress for entertainment.
There's quite a lot of room to suggest that pretending to eat kids' Halloween candy in America does not instill the same type or degree of concern in parenting that groups who face routine famine deal with. There's a profound gulf between the qualities of threat and deprivation.
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 12:28 PM on December 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
In any case, this is a question for a counselor or therapist if one is available to you. Anonymous advice on the internet isn't quite equipped to give you the tools you need to explore this issue thoroughly or healthily. Self-directed therapy might not be advisable.
The people who do stuff like post videos of kids upset that their parents got rid of all their Halloween candy seem to think this is okay, but I don’t. I don’t think it’s OK to cause someone significant distress for entertainment.
There's quite a lot of room to suggest that pretending to eat kids' Halloween candy in America does not instill the same type or degree of concern in parenting that groups who face routine famine deal with. There's a profound gulf between the qualities of threat and deprivation.
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 12:28 PM on December 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
There's quite a lot of room to suggest that pretending to eat kids' Halloween candy in America does not instill the same type or degree of concern in parenting that groups who face routine famine deal with. There's a profound gulf between the qualities of threat and deprivation.
At the same time, it's a person who should be a trusted safe refuge (a parent) intentionally causing distress to someone smaller and weaker for their own enjoyment and the enjoyment/attention of others. That's pretty fucked up.
posted by fiercecupcake at 12:32 PM on December 5, 2017 [6 favorites]
At the same time, it's a person who should be a trusted safe refuge (a parent) intentionally causing distress to someone smaller and weaker for their own enjoyment and the enjoyment/attention of others. That's pretty fucked up.
posted by fiercecupcake at 12:32 PM on December 5, 2017 [6 favorites]
I mean...sounds like textbook bullying to me.
posted by Young Kullervo at 1:26 PM on December 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Young Kullervo at 1:26 PM on December 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
My opinion is probably colored by the fact that I’m trying to teach my 2 and 5 year old how to not be assholes. One of the things I find myself saying a fair bit is, if a game isn’t fun for everybody who’s playing, that isn’t OK, and it needs to stop.
I have seen a few of the Halloween candy videos, and the kids did seem to really be upset. They’re not upset about something it would be reasonable for a grownup to be that upset about, but kids sometimes do get upset about things like that (like my two year old getting upset that I gave him the Paw Patrol sippy cup instead of the Lightning McQueen one). I think it’s reasonable to laugh when kids overreact like that, but not okay to deliberately upset them just for entertainment. I tend toward gentle parenting, your parenting philosophy may vary.
posted by Anne Neville at 1:34 PM on December 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
I have seen a few of the Halloween candy videos, and the kids did seem to really be upset. They’re not upset about something it would be reasonable for a grownup to be that upset about, but kids sometimes do get upset about things like that (like my two year old getting upset that I gave him the Paw Patrol sippy cup instead of the Lightning McQueen one). I think it’s reasonable to laugh when kids overreact like that, but not okay to deliberately upset them just for entertainment. I tend toward gentle parenting, your parenting philosophy may vary.
posted by Anne Neville at 1:34 PM on December 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
Best answer: I've been thinking about this question all day. The essence of what you are describing is on the tip of my tongue but all the words I'd use to describe this behavior just don't hit it on the head very well. I thought I'd mention a few thoughts in case it brings you a bit closer to some keywords you could use in researching this behavior.
Manipulation/emotional manipulation: The adults are manipulating you in someway to respond in a particular manner. They need to feel wanted so express this scenario of selling you to which you respond in distress, asking if your mother can come with you - the result then is the adult feeling wanted/loved and is reassured through you (practically an infant!) that they are loved and wanted. They are insecure and need that confirmation that you don't want to be separated from them. Your example of your mother cuddling with you and saying "My dearest boy, Mom will definitely abandon you!" - I wonder if you then followed it up with exclamations "please don't abandon me! I love you!" and she feels more secure in the relationship that she is indeed wanted and loved - assuaging any thoughts or insecurities that she may have that you don't want to be with her.
Someone mentioned sadism upthread. That doesn't seem as encompassing as what you've described. It only covers the portion where the adult has inflicted pain but doesn't take into consideration that the one who has inflicted the pain is also the one who then turns around and comforts the individual. My mother once told me how, when she was little, she would pinch her baby dolls and make them "cry" so that she could comfort them. She may have actually done this to a real baby or thought about doing it (I don't remember what she said it was a long time ago). While she (maybe) didn't derive pleasure from inflicting the pain, there was some sort of pleasure derived from comforting another. There is probably some sort of power thing going on as well - being able to dole out pain and comfort.
Another thought is that perhaps not being able to care for you was some sort of concern for the adults. My father and his brother were sent to an orphanage/boys home when they were little (1940s) after their mother divorced their alcoholic and abusive father. Divorce wasn't really a thing back then and for my grandmother to take on two small children on her own was a real difficulty. So, my dad and uncle spent years in a boys home while their mother worked rooming-in type jobs that didn't allow for children (in-house cook, maid, etc.). With no other family able to help support the boys it was their only option. Maybe brushes with poverty enforced this idea in your family somewhere along the way and by mentioning this possibility they were "lovingly" putting the idea in your head so that if that ever happened you'd be better prepared for that.
These are just my thoughts as I've had somewhat similar childhood experiences - although they were never approached "lovingly" only as a result of frustration and anger - my mother would tell us she was calling the orphanage to come pick us up (and would pretend-dial the phone and pretend-talk to someone on the other end about coming to get us), and other times she herself would pack a suitcase and leave while we begged for her to either take us with her or for her not to leave (she'd leave for a day or so).
posted by Sassyfras at 1:55 PM on December 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
Manipulation/emotional manipulation: The adults are manipulating you in someway to respond in a particular manner. They need to feel wanted so express this scenario of selling you to which you respond in distress, asking if your mother can come with you - the result then is the adult feeling wanted/loved and is reassured through you (practically an infant!) that they are loved and wanted. They are insecure and need that confirmation that you don't want to be separated from them. Your example of your mother cuddling with you and saying "My dearest boy, Mom will definitely abandon you!" - I wonder if you then followed it up with exclamations "please don't abandon me! I love you!" and she feels more secure in the relationship that she is indeed wanted and loved - assuaging any thoughts or insecurities that she may have that you don't want to be with her.
Someone mentioned sadism upthread. That doesn't seem as encompassing as what you've described. It only covers the portion where the adult has inflicted pain but doesn't take into consideration that the one who has inflicted the pain is also the one who then turns around and comforts the individual. My mother once told me how, when she was little, she would pinch her baby dolls and make them "cry" so that she could comfort them. She may have actually done this to a real baby or thought about doing it (I don't remember what she said it was a long time ago). While she (maybe) didn't derive pleasure from inflicting the pain, there was some sort of pleasure derived from comforting another. There is probably some sort of power thing going on as well - being able to dole out pain and comfort.
Another thought is that perhaps not being able to care for you was some sort of concern for the adults. My father and his brother were sent to an orphanage/boys home when they were little (1940s) after their mother divorced their alcoholic and abusive father. Divorce wasn't really a thing back then and for my grandmother to take on two small children on her own was a real difficulty. So, my dad and uncle spent years in a boys home while their mother worked rooming-in type jobs that didn't allow for children (in-house cook, maid, etc.). With no other family able to help support the boys it was their only option. Maybe brushes with poverty enforced this idea in your family somewhere along the way and by mentioning this possibility they were "lovingly" putting the idea in your head so that if that ever happened you'd be better prepared for that.
These are just my thoughts as I've had somewhat similar childhood experiences - although they were never approached "lovingly" only as a result of frustration and anger - my mother would tell us she was calling the orphanage to come pick us up (and would pretend-dial the phone and pretend-talk to someone on the other end about coming to get us), and other times she herself would pack a suitcase and leave while we begged for her to either take us with her or for her not to leave (she'd leave for a day or so).
posted by Sassyfras at 1:55 PM on December 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
I can tell you, you can get little kids to tell you they love you just by telling them you love them. No need to traumatize them. Or at least my kids do that. They’re sitting in my lap right now, in fact.
posted by Anne Neville at 3:16 PM on December 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by Anne Neville at 3:16 PM on December 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
Best answer: I know someone who sometimes behaves in a somewhat similar way towards their child, lacing tender or joyful moments with jokey cruelty.
My working hypothesis is that the child's genuine distress provides them with a sense of reassurance, demonstrating in a visceral, undeniable way that the child is attached to them, needs them, wants to be with them, yearns for their approval; that they're loved, vitally important, and not in any risk of getting abandoned themselves.
In that way, it is sort of understandable, and nevertheless despicable.
People can do the shittiest things to fulfill the voids inside them, even at the cost of their own children. I can see very well why this memory would weigh on you.
posted by sively at 4:01 PM on December 5, 2017 [9 favorites]
My working hypothesis is that the child's genuine distress provides them with a sense of reassurance, demonstrating in a visceral, undeniable way that the child is attached to them, needs them, wants to be with them, yearns for their approval; that they're loved, vitally important, and not in any risk of getting abandoned themselves.
In that way, it is sort of understandable, and nevertheless despicable.
People can do the shittiest things to fulfill the voids inside them, even at the cost of their own children. I can see very well why this memory would weigh on you.
posted by sively at 4:01 PM on December 5, 2017 [9 favorites]
Response by poster: Wow, my thanks for all of you for your contributions.
barracuda & selfmedicating, in fact I've read Miller's Drama of the Gifted Child (or "Being a Child" in some editions). It's a profoundly insightful book. However, it's one thing to appreciate the insights and another to embody them. Just like she said, the road of mourning is long and I don't think there could be a magic leap.
I don't think it's fine at the moment to go ask my parents. Last time I tried to do a bit of in-vivo personal archaeology with them, things went very poorly. Reading your interpretations helps me embed this personal sense of rejection and helplessness into a larger societal background.
I do have my personal counsellor who is supportive. Just like you!
posted by runcifex at 12:11 AM on December 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
barracuda & selfmedicating, in fact I've read Miller's Drama of the Gifted Child (or "Being a Child" in some editions). It's a profoundly insightful book. However, it's one thing to appreciate the insights and another to embody them. Just like she said, the road of mourning is long and I don't think there could be a magic leap.
I don't think it's fine at the moment to go ask my parents. Last time I tried to do a bit of in-vivo personal archaeology with them, things went very poorly. Reading your interpretations helps me embed this personal sense of rejection and helplessness into a larger societal background.
I do have my personal counsellor who is supportive. Just like you!
posted by runcifex at 12:11 AM on December 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
I’m sorry to hear that this happened to you. It wasn’t okay. It was wrong and messed up for your family to do this.
You are under no obligation to discuss this with your parents if you think that doing so is going to cause you more distress. Feel free to ignore anyone who says otherwise.
I can tell you, it’s unlikely that you’ll get them to admit they were wrong to do this. Not impossible, but unlikely. I wouldn’t risk significant distress for myself to try to get them to do that.
If you have your own kids, or plan to, file this under “stuff not to do”. There probably are other examples that your family set that you would not want to follow.
posted by Anne Neville at 6:02 AM on December 6, 2017
You are under no obligation to discuss this with your parents if you think that doing so is going to cause you more distress. Feel free to ignore anyone who says otherwise.
I can tell you, it’s unlikely that you’ll get them to admit they were wrong to do this. Not impossible, but unlikely. I wouldn’t risk significant distress for myself to try to get them to do that.
If you have your own kids, or plan to, file this under “stuff not to do”. There probably are other examples that your family set that you would not want to follow.
posted by Anne Neville at 6:02 AM on December 6, 2017
Response by poster:
posted by runcifex at 9:20 PM on December 6, 2017
> There probably are other examples that your family set that you would not want to follow.This is so very true. There are too many, and I can't write about each single one of them. It is my nirvanaistic job to let those toxic stuff die with me, rather than get passed on unconsciously to posterior generations.
posted by runcifex at 9:20 PM on December 6, 2017
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I’m sorry it happened to you.
posted by pintapicasso at 4:41 AM on December 5, 2017 [27 favorites]