Freeloading Husband
October 16, 2017 4:29 AM Subscribe
That would be me, apparently. Is my wife correct?
My wife is in a position to buy a house outright (i.e. no mortgage). We would live there with our daughter and my wife's mother.
For various reasons, I am not able to contribute to the purchase of the house, however I am fine with this being my wife's house (i.e. I have no intention to claim ownership; this would be 100% her house). We already have shared ownership of other property.
I am happy to pay half the household costs, including maintenance/upkeep of the property. Neither my daughter nor mother-in-law would contribute financially to the house (something I agree with).
In addition to household costs, my wife wishes to charge me rent. This strikes me as unusual, since, if the situation was reversed, it would never occur to me to charge my wife, or indeed any close family member, rent for a house that I own outright. In my opinion, charging rent, in addition to household costs, when there is no mortgage, is profiteering. My wife says that this is nothing to do with making a profit and is purely because "it is not fair to live in a house for free". She considers this freeloading.
So, which of us is the anomaly: me, for viewing this rent as unexpected, or her, for viewing rent as a necessary fact of life?
And a secondary question: if I am wrong, what would you consider a fair rent to be?
Some points for clarification:
1) I probably can afford to pay the rent (although she hasn't yet explicitly said how much she would set it at), and will pay it if necessary, so this is more about the principle.
2) My wife has said that the rent could act as a pseudo-mortgage, so that I would accrue ownership of the home over time, however this is implies entering a long-term financial agreement, which I can't do for the same reasons why I cannot contribute to the house in the first place (not to mention that this would seem to be opening a legal minefield).
3) I realize that in some regions simply contributing to the running of house for a length of time can confer ownership, however that is not a scenario I am interested in pursuing.
My wife is in a position to buy a house outright (i.e. no mortgage). We would live there with our daughter and my wife's mother.
For various reasons, I am not able to contribute to the purchase of the house, however I am fine with this being my wife's house (i.e. I have no intention to claim ownership; this would be 100% her house). We already have shared ownership of other property.
I am happy to pay half the household costs, including maintenance/upkeep of the property. Neither my daughter nor mother-in-law would contribute financially to the house (something I agree with).
In addition to household costs, my wife wishes to charge me rent. This strikes me as unusual, since, if the situation was reversed, it would never occur to me to charge my wife, or indeed any close family member, rent for a house that I own outright. In my opinion, charging rent, in addition to household costs, when there is no mortgage, is profiteering. My wife says that this is nothing to do with making a profit and is purely because "it is not fair to live in a house for free". She considers this freeloading.
So, which of us is the anomaly: me, for viewing this rent as unexpected, or her, for viewing rent as a necessary fact of life?
And a secondary question: if I am wrong, what would you consider a fair rent to be?
Some points for clarification:
1) I probably can afford to pay the rent (although she hasn't yet explicitly said how much she would set it at), and will pay it if necessary, so this is more about the principle.
2) My wife has said that the rent could act as a pseudo-mortgage, so that I would accrue ownership of the home over time, however this is implies entering a long-term financial agreement, which I can't do for the same reasons why I cannot contribute to the house in the first place (not to mention that this would seem to be opening a legal minefield).
3) I realize that in some regions simply contributing to the running of house for a length of time can confer ownership, however that is not a scenario I am interested in pursuing.
My gut is that she's way off base. And after a moments reflection she's still way off base. Is there a history of financial woe between you or some other marital issue you're not presenting? I totally disagree with your wife.
posted by chasles at 4:32 AM on October 16, 2017 [21 favorites]
posted by chasles at 4:32 AM on October 16, 2017 [21 favorites]
Yeah, nope. Everyone has different ideas about "our money" vs. "my money," but implying that you're a freeloader for not paying rent is weird. Like, is a stay at home mom a freeloader?
Now, having you contribute more than her to things like taxes and upkeep, that makes some sense. And if she's feeling pinched or anxious about money because she just had this major outlay, that's at least a little bit understandable (though not an excuse for insulting you). Like, she no longer has a safety net and would like to build it back up. If she is, that's something she should deal with, rather than blame you.
So either there's something else going on here, or she's being a pretty lousy partner.
posted by gideonfrog at 4:37 AM on October 16, 2017 [26 favorites]
Now, having you contribute more than her to things like taxes and upkeep, that makes some sense. And if she's feeling pinched or anxious about money because she just had this major outlay, that's at least a little bit understandable (though not an excuse for insulting you). Like, she no longer has a safety net and would like to build it back up. If she is, that's something she should deal with, rather than blame you.
So either there's something else going on here, or she's being a pretty lousy partner.
posted by gideonfrog at 4:37 AM on October 16, 2017 [26 favorites]
That's just odd. You aren't a tenant or a dependent child. You are a *partner*. Partners don't charge partners rent.
posted by 41swans at 4:42 AM on October 16, 2017 [17 favorites]
posted by 41swans at 4:42 AM on October 16, 2017 [17 favorites]
First question is, are you withholding money from her from another pot?
posted by alusru at 4:43 AM on October 16, 2017 [16 favorites]
posted by alusru at 4:43 AM on October 16, 2017 [16 favorites]
How old is your daughter? Why is your wife's adult mother not paying rent? Under your wife's logic, her mother should be paying rent, too. Hmmm
I think this is s very interesting because I love trying to understand how people like your wife operate. What an odd un-familial and miserly position for her to take. Why is she like this? I'm serious.
You are paying more than enough splitting household expenses, especially since this house is likely joint property in most (all?) jurisdictions. If your wife does not want to share assets with you, then you should get divorced (at least on paper) but keeping living together. Then her proposal about rent and buying equity in the property makes sense.
If she requires rent, you need a lawyer and a lease-to-own contract to help you navigate this process. Especially since you are married.
posted by jbenben at 4:43 AM on October 16, 2017 [17 favorites]
I think this is s very interesting because I love trying to understand how people like your wife operate. What an odd un-familial and miserly position for her to take. Why is she like this? I'm serious.
You are paying more than enough splitting household expenses, especially since this house is likely joint property in most (all?) jurisdictions. If your wife does not want to share assets with you, then you should get divorced (at least on paper) but keeping living together. Then her proposal about rent and buying equity in the property makes sense.
If she requires rent, you need a lawyer and a lease-to-own contract to help you navigate this process. Especially since you are married.
posted by jbenben at 4:43 AM on October 16, 2017 [17 favorites]
Nthing the subtext red flags. And what Chasles said. There must be more to this story...
That being said, it's hard to step into it at face value and advise or opine when there is no way to know where your wife's mindset is originating from.
Have previous partners left her holding the bag, financially?
Is this a family home (i.e., is your mother-in-law "giving" your wife the house), and maybe the rent aspect is a stipulation therein, of which you are unaware? Did your MIL live with you previously, or will her presence in the home be a new situation?
Is your wife generally savvy in financial / housing matters (meaning, are all these options and rent-related concepts sounding legit, coming from her)? Things like, "the rent can act as a pseudo-mortgage, etc.)? Or does it seem like she is just spouting stuff someone else told her to say, or that she read somewhere?
So much about this sounds odd. I'm sorry if this response is not helpful, but there just seems to be a lot of information left out.
posted by I_Love_Bananas at 4:48 AM on October 16, 2017 [8 favorites]
That being said, it's hard to step into it at face value and advise or opine when there is no way to know where your wife's mindset is originating from.
Have previous partners left her holding the bag, financially?
Is this a family home (i.e., is your mother-in-law "giving" your wife the house), and maybe the rent aspect is a stipulation therein, of which you are unaware? Did your MIL live with you previously, or will her presence in the home be a new situation?
Is your wife generally savvy in financial / housing matters (meaning, are all these options and rent-related concepts sounding legit, coming from her)? Things like, "the rent can act as a pseudo-mortgage, etc.)? Or does it seem like she is just spouting stuff someone else told her to say, or that she read somewhere?
So much about this sounds odd. I'm sorry if this response is not helpful, but there just seems to be a lot of information left out.
posted by I_Love_Bananas at 4:48 AM on October 16, 2017 [8 favorites]
Personally I suspect this has something to do with whatever vague reasons you have for being "unable" to be on the title or enter a long-term financial agreement. She's concerned about the money you owe or have owed to someone else or your inability to pay debts. I doubt that anyone here is going to be able to give you advice without knowing that background. For example, many financial agreements such as child support assume that you will be paying a reasonable market rent, and if you are not, that means you're lying to the court. I'm not saying this is anything nefarious, but leaving out that side of the equation makes it very difficult to judge what is just here.
posted by possibilityleft at 4:48 AM on October 16, 2017 [84 favorites]
posted by possibilityleft at 4:48 AM on October 16, 2017 [84 favorites]
I am happy to pay half the household costs, including maintenance/upkeep of the property......In addition to household costs, my wife wishes to charge me rent
Suppose you were renting a place to live, and the landlord proposed this: in addition to rent, you are responsible for paying half the cost of maintaining their property. Sound like a good deal?
posted by thelonius at 4:52 AM on October 16, 2017 [14 favorites]
Suppose you were renting a place to live, and the landlord proposed this: in addition to rent, you are responsible for paying half the cost of maintaining their property. Sound like a good deal?
posted by thelonius at 4:52 AM on October 16, 2017 [14 favorites]
Assuming there is no apparent reason related to your joint financial history that triggers this...
My, perhaps not entirely helpful, gut reaction would be to say ok - we can do rent. I will pay my quarter and half our daughter's quarter* and that's it. And your contribution is limited to rent and any proportionate share of utilities/internet/tenant insurance you'd normally pay as tenant. You don't pay for anything else house related ever nor do you do any of the jobs landlords would normally be expected to do. Anything a landlord normally pays for she pays for (in addition to her, her mother's and half of your joint daughter's share of rent and utilities) and she does or contracts out (at her expense) the jobs a landlord would normally do.
Hopefully that would get a conversation started as to what is prompting the request and what she's trying to achieve here. And yes, run this by a lawyer to ensure it achieves what you all want to achieve.
* I assume your daughter is young enough to be financially dependent. If not the daughter can pay her share.....or a proportion of it at least that should feature in the math's.
posted by koahiatamadl at 4:54 AM on October 16, 2017 [10 favorites]
My, perhaps not entirely helpful, gut reaction would be to say ok - we can do rent. I will pay my quarter and half our daughter's quarter* and that's it. And your contribution is limited to rent and any proportionate share of utilities/internet/tenant insurance you'd normally pay as tenant. You don't pay for anything else house related ever nor do you do any of the jobs landlords would normally be expected to do. Anything a landlord normally pays for she pays for (in addition to her, her mother's and half of your joint daughter's share of rent and utilities) and she does or contracts out (at her expense) the jobs a landlord would normally do.
Hopefully that would get a conversation started as to what is prompting the request and what she's trying to achieve here. And yes, run this by a lawyer to ensure it achieves what you all want to achieve.
* I assume your daughter is young enough to be financially dependent. If not the daughter can pay her share.....or a proportion of it at least that should feature in the math's.
posted by koahiatamadl at 4:54 AM on October 16, 2017 [10 favorites]
I feel like there may be a very big backstory here. How does she have money to buy a house outright? What has been the financial situation until now? Have you been financially irresponsible or has money been a big issue in the past in your relationship?
I feel like knowing way more of this story would help AskMefi understand the situation a little better.
posted by beccaj at 4:56 AM on October 16, 2017 [30 favorites]
I feel like knowing way more of this story would help AskMefi understand the situation a little better.
posted by beccaj at 4:56 AM on October 16, 2017 [30 favorites]
Just want to comment that, depending on where you live, this idea that it's only "her house" is maybe not 100% correct. I'm married and we bought a house in just my name for financial reasons. However, if we were to sell, we'd both have to agree to sell.
posted by cabingirl at 5:02 AM on October 16, 2017 [20 favorites]
posted by cabingirl at 5:02 AM on October 16, 2017 [20 favorites]
There is definitely resentment here toward your “various reasons” or other past dynamics. I wouldn’t get too hung up on the details of this proposed arrangement, this is going to be based in something else like “you are not a good provider (but we are married now so this is how it is)” or “you wasted all your money”... something along those lines. So, if I were you i would approach this as an opening to a larger discussion.
posted by friendofstone at 5:03 AM on October 16, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by friendofstone at 5:03 AM on October 16, 2017 [4 favorites]
There's something missing here, as others have said. Do you have a source of money that she does not have access to or something?
You say you can't join a long term financial agreement with her, but you're married. You two already have a long term financial agreement that is legal in nature. What is going on here?
posted by sockermom at 5:04 AM on October 16, 2017 [22 favorites]
You say you can't join a long term financial agreement with her, but you're married. You two already have a long term financial agreement that is legal in nature. What is going on here?
posted by sockermom at 5:04 AM on October 16, 2017 [22 favorites]
Also if y'all are using the words profiteering and freeloading with one another, there's a bigger marriage problem here. Those are some pretty intense things to say about your loved ones.
posted by sockermom at 5:06 AM on October 16, 2017 [61 favorites]
posted by sockermom at 5:06 AM on October 16, 2017 [61 favorites]
1. I think this is a bad set-up even though the total dollar amounts might be okay, because it puts your wife in charge of the money. Like, you have a kid and a life together, so presumably the bulk of your finances are shared. It would make far more sense to say "Wife pays for house outright, both parties contribute to savings/retirement, taxes, repairs, household purchases, etc" and if you personally have more money than you would if you were paying rent, you just contribute more to retirement savings. If your wife is your landlord, that means she's collecting your "rent" and putting it somewhere, like she's the boss of your finances - even if she's putting it into savings. Why not just put it directly into savings?
2. My feeling is that a better way to do this would be to talk about your total household budget and figure out how much each of you is contributing and how much each of you is putting aside for [hobbies, books, dinner with friends, etc]. Is your wife's mother contributing? Anyway, add this all up and decide how to allocate it. Don't earmark anything as "rent".
3. Your wife had some kind of investment or windfall that allows her to pay for the house upfront. On the one hand, that is a big personal purchase and it's natural to feel like she has sort of over-contributed. But OTOH, that's how lots of people buy houses - one partner inherits something or gets some kind of career windfall, and that goes to the downpayment or pays for the house itself. This is totally normal, and it's not common to feel like the house "belongs" only to the one partner. Relationships run on "from each according to their ability". So while I appreciate that your wife feels that it's "her" house, I think that's kind of a messed up way to treat the relationship. Having it in her name is one thing, but acting like she's the landlord doesn't say good things about your partnership.
posted by Frowner at 5:11 AM on October 16, 2017 [9 favorites]
2. My feeling is that a better way to do this would be to talk about your total household budget and figure out how much each of you is contributing and how much each of you is putting aside for [hobbies, books, dinner with friends, etc]. Is your wife's mother contributing? Anyway, add this all up and decide how to allocate it. Don't earmark anything as "rent".
3. Your wife had some kind of investment or windfall that allows her to pay for the house upfront. On the one hand, that is a big personal purchase and it's natural to feel like she has sort of over-contributed. But OTOH, that's how lots of people buy houses - one partner inherits something or gets some kind of career windfall, and that goes to the downpayment or pays for the house itself. This is totally normal, and it's not common to feel like the house "belongs" only to the one partner. Relationships run on "from each according to their ability". So while I appreciate that your wife feels that it's "her" house, I think that's kind of a messed up way to treat the relationship. Having it in her name is one thing, but acting like she's the landlord doesn't say good things about your partnership.
posted by Frowner at 5:11 AM on October 16, 2017 [9 favorites]
It is hard to answer this question without having a broader picture of how you and your wife manage your finances, including your incomes and financial obligations.
Some married couples have a single bank out. There's no "my money" and "your money". You obviously don't have an arrangement like that. So what is your arrangement? How have you shared costs when you rent your home?
I don't particularly like the word, but in general I agree that both partners should contribute to the cost of living in the house. That includes utilities, groceries, etc. It would also include rent if you were renting a place. Your wife is contributing the down payment towards the mortgage, so she gets the initial equity. It sounds like she would like you to contribute to the mortgage payments, and is happy to have you accrue equity over time in return for that. That seems perfectly reasonable to me.
I agree with others who've said this disagreement is likely a reflection of a larger issue surrounding shared finances. You two may not have the same understanding of your situation, and may even be using the same words to mean different things. It might be helpful to have a third party help mediate your conversations about this, to avoid miscommunication and help get the two of you to the same place.
posted by Winnie the Proust at 5:32 AM on October 16, 2017 [8 favorites]
Some married couples have a single bank out. There's no "my money" and "your money". You obviously don't have an arrangement like that. So what is your arrangement? How have you shared costs when you rent your home?
I don't particularly like the word, but in general I agree that both partners should contribute to the cost of living in the house. That includes utilities, groceries, etc. It would also include rent if you were renting a place. Your wife is contributing the down payment towards the mortgage, so she gets the initial equity. It sounds like she would like you to contribute to the mortgage payments, and is happy to have you accrue equity over time in return for that. That seems perfectly reasonable to me.
I agree with others who've said this disagreement is likely a reflection of a larger issue surrounding shared finances. You two may not have the same understanding of your situation, and may even be using the same words to mean different things. It might be helpful to have a third party help mediate your conversations about this, to avoid miscommunication and help get the two of you to the same place.
posted by Winnie the Proust at 5:32 AM on October 16, 2017 [8 favorites]
As others have said, it seems like there's too much we don't know here about the mysterious circumstances surrounding all of this.
"Rent" is a weird and loaded term and not one I would ever use with a partner. Nor would I ever be looking to make a profit off a partner, or put myself into a landlord situation in relationship to them.
That said, she's presumably wiping out a pretty decent chunk of savings, so I wonder if she's seeing it as "profit" versus "I just took a big financial hit, and since it's benefitting both of us, I'd like your help in helping to rebuild those savings over time to the extent that you're able." Would you feel better about it phrased that way? If it's genuinely a principle for her and not about the actual money at all, would you both feel better about it if that money were going away into a savings account earmarked for your daughter?
Basically, I wonder if the issue here is mainly one about phrasing and not the actual financial arrangement. If so, that seems like it's probably something you can work through relatively easily. If not, then it seems like there's a bigger issue here that's probably related to your circumstances, whatever your current living situation is, where your mother-in-law is living now, or some other thing that we can't know about, and I'm gonna guess that it's probably a couples counselling situation.
posted by Stacey at 5:37 AM on October 16, 2017 [4 favorites]
"Rent" is a weird and loaded term and not one I would ever use with a partner. Nor would I ever be looking to make a profit off a partner, or put myself into a landlord situation in relationship to them.
That said, she's presumably wiping out a pretty decent chunk of savings, so I wonder if she's seeing it as "profit" versus "I just took a big financial hit, and since it's benefitting both of us, I'd like your help in helping to rebuild those savings over time to the extent that you're able." Would you feel better about it phrased that way? If it's genuinely a principle for her and not about the actual money at all, would you both feel better about it if that money were going away into a savings account earmarked for your daughter?
Basically, I wonder if the issue here is mainly one about phrasing and not the actual financial arrangement. If so, that seems like it's probably something you can work through relatively easily. If not, then it seems like there's a bigger issue here that's probably related to your circumstances, whatever your current living situation is, where your mother-in-law is living now, or some other thing that we can't know about, and I'm gonna guess that it's probably a couples counselling situation.
posted by Stacey at 5:37 AM on October 16, 2017 [4 favorites]
Response by poster: Thanks for all the answers so far.
I didn't go into the "vague" reasons for not investing in the house because I didn't want to make the post more verbose than it needed to be, however they are (a) I don't have an lump sum large enough to contribute to the purchase (my wife wants 50% contribution or nothing) and, in any event, the money I do have is essentially my emergency fund, which I don't want to eat into because (b) my employment position may be uncertain in the near future and there are also significant education costs on the horizon (next few years). This is why it would be risky for me to get a significant mortgage at this point. And speaking of a mortgage, (c) we currently live in my wife's home country and one or both of us may need to move abroad in the future (related to the uncertain employment prospects); I don't want to have a long-term financial commitment in this country if I am not living there (we already have commitments, including property, in my home country and those cause enough headaches).
BTW, with regard to wider financial issues, we have always kept our finances strictly separate except for household/childcare expenses (which we always split 50/50). Both of us (currently) earn comfortable, broadly similar salaries, although she earns more than I do and recently came into a large sum of money (hence the house purchase).
posted by teselecta at 5:49 AM on October 16, 2017
I didn't go into the "vague" reasons for not investing in the house because I didn't want to make the post more verbose than it needed to be, however they are (a) I don't have an lump sum large enough to contribute to the purchase (my wife wants 50% contribution or nothing) and, in any event, the money I do have is essentially my emergency fund, which I don't want to eat into because (b) my employment position may be uncertain in the near future and there are also significant education costs on the horizon (next few years). This is why it would be risky for me to get a significant mortgage at this point. And speaking of a mortgage, (c) we currently live in my wife's home country and one or both of us may need to move abroad in the future (related to the uncertain employment prospects); I don't want to have a long-term financial commitment in this country if I am not living there (we already have commitments, including property, in my home country and those cause enough headaches).
BTW, with regard to wider financial issues, we have always kept our finances strictly separate except for household/childcare expenses (which we always split 50/50). Both of us (currently) earn comfortable, broadly similar salaries, although she earns more than I do and recently came into a large sum of money (hence the house purchase).
posted by teselecta at 5:49 AM on October 16, 2017
I think what she's saying is that she's willing to arrange 100% of this house up front, but she doesn't WANT to. She'd really like to have some chunk of this windfall to do something else. What you're saying back to that is that somehow your finances are in such a state that you absolutely can't be responsible for half of this house. Why? I think the reason for this matters. I don't think making her responsible for 100% of the risk of homeownership when you're going to benefit makes sense. You say you'll contribute to upkeep, but if the house needs $20k in structural repairs in six months, it sounds like you're expecting that she will then, alone, take on more debt or sacrifice savings to manage that, because of the state of your finances. If the house needs a major remodel in the kitchen, who's responsible for taking out the HELOC? Just her? Who makes the payments?
This giant thing she's buying is not just a pile of cash kept in a vault. It's an asset that involves substantial long-term risks. No matter how good the real estate market is, houses depreciate--even if the land under it keeps being worth more, the building is not. And you're talking about how your future income is uncertain and about how you want her big inheritance to be spent entirely on your shared housing, not how you're contributing to the ongoing stability of the family. If you currently earn a comfortable salary, opting out of those risks because they put you personally in a somewhat worse financial position does seem like, well, freeloading. Not because of rent specifically, but because she's putting herself in a much worse cash position to do this, and if you're not a stay-at-home parent, I don't think it's automatically reasonable to expect her to take this on without you.
So, yeah, you signing on to eventually contribute up to owning half the house is risky, but so is what you're asking of her. You're prioritizing your financial stability here over hers, and I get why that's chafing.
posted by Sequence at 5:59 AM on October 16, 2017 [25 favorites]
This giant thing she's buying is not just a pile of cash kept in a vault. It's an asset that involves substantial long-term risks. No matter how good the real estate market is, houses depreciate--even if the land under it keeps being worth more, the building is not. And you're talking about how your future income is uncertain and about how you want her big inheritance to be spent entirely on your shared housing, not how you're contributing to the ongoing stability of the family. If you currently earn a comfortable salary, opting out of those risks because they put you personally in a somewhat worse financial position does seem like, well, freeloading. Not because of rent specifically, but because she's putting herself in a much worse cash position to do this, and if you're not a stay-at-home parent, I don't think it's automatically reasonable to expect her to take this on without you.
So, yeah, you signing on to eventually contribute up to owning half the house is risky, but so is what you're asking of her. You're prioritizing your financial stability here over hers, and I get why that's chafing.
posted by Sequence at 5:59 AM on October 16, 2017 [25 favorites]
IANAL The best legal money I ever spent was a lawyer who helped us write a nuptual agreement about money. You are married, and assets acquired during the marriage may belong to both of you by law. This varies by country. If you were to divorce, you would typically have a right to 1/2 the value of the house, by virtue of being married.
It sounds like your wife is resentful of your financial situation. If your wife makes a lot more than you, or has funds from savings or inheritance, maybe she's feeling that you should contribute more. If nobody should live in a house for free, why doesn't that to apply to Mom?
Others, including her mom, may be giving her advice about how your wife should be dealing with money, and the advice may be wildly inaccurate about how the law works.
I'd look in to marital law where you are. And maybe find out how other couple handle money and talk to your wife about how she feels and how you can create a fair financial plan.
posted by theora55 at 6:04 AM on October 16, 2017 [5 favorites]
It sounds like your wife is resentful of your financial situation. If your wife makes a lot more than you, or has funds from savings or inheritance, maybe she's feeling that you should contribute more. If nobody should live in a house for free, why doesn't that to apply to Mom?
Others, including her mom, may be giving her advice about how your wife should be dealing with money, and the advice may be wildly inaccurate about how the law works.
I'd look in to marital law where you are. And maybe find out how other couple handle money and talk to your wife about how she feels and how you can create a fair financial plan.
posted by theora55 at 6:04 AM on October 16, 2017 [5 favorites]
In defense of your wife's position, tying up a significant sum of money in a property means that the money is not available for other things (such as investing or building a business that earns money) and so allowing other people to live in that property free of charge (regardless of family relationship) entails a certain loss of income potential--even if the other occupants are paying half of the current costs for utilities, taxes, and upkeep. We can go back and forth on whether spouses should simply absorb that loss of earning potential for one another in a circumstance where income/savings are unequal, but the simple fact is that unless the local real estate market is hot hot hot, your wife is taking a bit of a financial hit/assuming financial risks that you are not, and may feel like there should be some sort of compensation on your part.
I think a much better approach to the whole issue--which you may or may not be able to steer the conversation back toward, now that you think your wife is being greedy and she thinks you're not pulling your weight--is how best to fairly distribute the risks and rewards that arise from her windfall so that you can both go back to feeling like a team who has each other's back?
posted by drlith at 6:09 AM on October 16, 2017 [6 favorites]
I think a much better approach to the whole issue--which you may or may not be able to steer the conversation back toward, now that you think your wife is being greedy and she thinks you're not pulling your weight--is how best to fairly distribute the risks and rewards that arise from her windfall so that you can both go back to feeling like a team who has each other's back?
posted by drlith at 6:09 AM on October 16, 2017 [6 favorites]
My husband and I are on the polar opposite site of the spectrum (everything is shared) so please take this with that bias attached but...
It seems like there's a feeling between you two that you do not have each other's backs financially. You are hoarding cash against the future possibility that you won't have any income and she is demanding an exactly equal house contribution in order to mitigate her risks in buying a home. I am wondering why you two aren't making these decisions together. Could you buy a smaller house where you could contribute equally? Could you take on a larger mortgage to which you each contribute equally?
With respect to your specific question I think it is weird to charge a spouse rent, but I also think it is weird for just one spouse to buy a home without working all of this out in advance. The word freeloading would be a red flag on the road to divorce for me, because it would mean we are not working as partners. My husband has made financial decisions that seriously impacted us, as I have I, but we have always worked as a team to sort it out without using that kind of language.
I would recommend either some kind of post-nuptial discussion where you can work these things out with a third party or counselling to figure out what's going on with your relationship.
posted by warriorqueen at 6:23 AM on October 16, 2017 [34 favorites]
It seems like there's a feeling between you two that you do not have each other's backs financially. You are hoarding cash against the future possibility that you won't have any income and she is demanding an exactly equal house contribution in order to mitigate her risks in buying a home. I am wondering why you two aren't making these decisions together. Could you buy a smaller house where you could contribute equally? Could you take on a larger mortgage to which you each contribute equally?
With respect to your specific question I think it is weird to charge a spouse rent, but I also think it is weird for just one spouse to buy a home without working all of this out in advance. The word freeloading would be a red flag on the road to divorce for me, because it would mean we are not working as partners. My husband has made financial decisions that seriously impacted us, as I have I, but we have always worked as a team to sort it out without using that kind of language.
I would recommend either some kind of post-nuptial discussion where you can work these things out with a third party or counselling to figure out what's going on with your relationship.
posted by warriorqueen at 6:23 AM on October 16, 2017 [34 favorites]
With your update, I really think that what you need is a financial planner. You should sit down with a professional and map out some likely futures and their risks/expenditures, and then come up with a plan about savings/investments. Like, if you have to go abroad, is it permanent? Or just for a few years? Where is your daughter likely to go to college? What expenses is your MIL likely to incur as she ages, and does she have funds or social services to cover them?
I think that if you map out the most likely futures, you can come up with a plan for something that is not rent, but is instead savings for specific things. If your wife is basically going to maintain the family home while you're abroad, it would be reasonable for you to bulk up a house maintenance fund now, for instance.
If you want my personal opinion, as someone who keeps most finances separate from my partner - I think that big stuff should be basically shared. Houses, medical bills, major appliances - those are all shared, regardless of whose name they're formally in, and that's because our lives are more or less shared. My partner doesn't live in my house. I don't use my partner's lawnmower. My partner has their own mattress, television and credit card debt, but the other stuff is mutual. We do a lot of back and forth - I buy cat supplies, partner buys paper towels and household miscellany - but my partner's contribution to the mortgage isn't rent, it's just their share.
I also think that when big stuff is too separate, it creates a "one foot out the door" feeling, which almost seems like what you've got here. Unless you really feel that the marriage is going to be dissolved if you have to leave the country, I think that's something to work on. If this is more than a marriage of convenience, it seems like a more mutual financial arrangement would be a good idea.
posted by Frowner at 6:29 AM on October 16, 2017 [7 favorites]
I think that if you map out the most likely futures, you can come up with a plan for something that is not rent, but is instead savings for specific things. If your wife is basically going to maintain the family home while you're abroad, it would be reasonable for you to bulk up a house maintenance fund now, for instance.
If you want my personal opinion, as someone who keeps most finances separate from my partner - I think that big stuff should be basically shared. Houses, medical bills, major appliances - those are all shared, regardless of whose name they're formally in, and that's because our lives are more or less shared. My partner doesn't live in my house. I don't use my partner's lawnmower. My partner has their own mattress, television and credit card debt, but the other stuff is mutual. We do a lot of back and forth - I buy cat supplies, partner buys paper towels and household miscellany - but my partner's contribution to the mortgage isn't rent, it's just their share.
I also think that when big stuff is too separate, it creates a "one foot out the door" feeling, which almost seems like what you've got here. Unless you really feel that the marriage is going to be dissolved if you have to leave the country, I think that's something to work on. If this is more than a marriage of convenience, it seems like a more mutual financial arrangement would be a good idea.
posted by Frowner at 6:29 AM on October 16, 2017 [7 favorites]
Why buy the house outright? Why not just use 20% of this lump sum to put down 20% on the house and you both contribute to it as you are able? Also how are you paying for the place you live now, and how would you expect to pay for housing in the future if you(r wife) *didn't* buy this house? Do *you* want to buy a house? Is it a good idea to buy a house for cash in your current market? How much will buying the house cost compared to renting (NYTimes Rent vs. Buy calculator is a handy tool for figuring this out - but maybe not for you if you're not in the US)?
I feel like you guys should talk with a financial planner and a couples therapist, in no particular order. What are your shared goals (financial and otherwise) and how does this house figure into that?
(FWIW my partner and I keep our finances separate but I would not be comfortable in either your role or your wife's in the situation you describe.)
posted by mskyle at 6:31 AM on October 16, 2017 [9 favorites]
I feel like you guys should talk with a financial planner and a couples therapist, in no particular order. What are your shared goals (financial and otherwise) and how does this house figure into that?
(FWIW my partner and I keep our finances separate but I would not be comfortable in either your role or your wife's in the situation you describe.)
posted by mskyle at 6:31 AM on October 16, 2017 [9 favorites]
If she is planning to purchase the house with money that she inherited from a family member, depending on the country, formally paying "rent" can help to ensure that this inheritance stays as a personal asset and does not become a marital asset. Of course, paying for maintenance AND paying rent is double-dipping, so that would be a point to negotiate. But it sounds like the two of you are in a relatively unusual financial situation so asking what is "usual" isn't really pertinent. To me, the problem isn't that paying rent is usual or unusual, it's that there seem to be a lot of unspoken emotions related to your financial situation that you two don't seem to be communicating about. For example, she doesn't seem to understand or want to acknowledge that you don't want to put down roots in her home country. I can see why this would be a very painful sticking point that both of you would want to avoid confronting, but the time for confronting it is right now, not in a few years when you are talking about moving and she feels like she has put her roots down.
posted by muddgirl at 6:38 AM on October 16, 2017 [7 favorites]
posted by muddgirl at 6:38 AM on October 16, 2017 [7 favorites]
Did the lump sum she received that is helping her buy this house come with strings? The fact that the daughter and MIL will be living there and there's cash suddenly to buy a house outright makes me think this house is being viewed as a fallback if things go wrong in your marriage. That, plus the words you two have been throwing at each other makes me think you guys maybe aren't in a great place right now? Is that accurate, or from your perspective have things been fine until now?
posted by corb at 6:38 AM on October 16, 2017 [7 favorites]
posted by corb at 6:38 AM on October 16, 2017 [7 favorites]
Are you sure she's willing to relocate if your employment demands it? She's buying a house that she owns alone. I think you should talk to her about that.
It may be that she's responding to inflexibility that's coming from you: do you understand the degree to which she wants to be near her family? Is her mother willing to relocate to another country with you? Does your wife need the support of her extended family in order to take care of her mother?
Also, are you contributing equally to the household in non-monetary ways? The whole approach of trying to achieve equality through charging you rent makes me think either she is really, really angry with you for some reason or she is trying desperately to find a way to not be angry.
posted by amtho at 6:38 AM on October 16, 2017 [7 favorites]
It may be that she's responding to inflexibility that's coming from you: do you understand the degree to which she wants to be near her family? Is her mother willing to relocate to another country with you? Does your wife need the support of her extended family in order to take care of her mother?
Also, are you contributing equally to the household in non-monetary ways? The whole approach of trying to achieve equality through charging you rent makes me think either she is really, really angry with you for some reason or she is trying desperately to find a way to not be angry.
posted by amtho at 6:38 AM on October 16, 2017 [7 favorites]
IMO, buying a house outright and not giving the spouse a chance to contribute is not a thing that would be within the bounds of most marriages. If my wife said she wanted to do this I would give her approximately the same look as if she said she wanted to take a 2 week vacation in the Caribbean with just her and her friend Todd.
posted by ftm at 6:41 AM on October 16, 2017 [19 favorites]
posted by ftm at 6:41 AM on October 16, 2017 [19 favorites]
That is very weird. Something is very out of wack.
Whatever you decide to do, make sure you document all money you spend on the house. Maintenance, food, insurance, whatever it is, document. Then no one can claim you are a freeloader.
posted by james33 at 7:00 AM on October 16, 2017 [4 favorites]
Whatever you decide to do, make sure you document all money you spend on the house. Maintenance, food, insurance, whatever it is, document. Then no one can claim you are a freeloader.
posted by james33 at 7:00 AM on October 16, 2017 [4 favorites]
we currently live in my wife's home country and one or both of us may need to move abroad in the future (related to the uncertain employment prospects); I don't want to have a long-term financial commitment in this country if I am not living there (we already have commitments, including property, in my home country and those cause enough headaches).
Is your wife aware that you're thinking about maybe moving away soon? Because to me, there seems like a straight line from "my husband is talking about moving countries" and "I am purchasing a non-jointly-owned home in this country and moving my mom in."
Does she maybe resent the idea of potentially moving away from her home country again? Does she maybe resent the fact that you guys own property in your home country, and thus have established roots there, while treating residency in her home country as temporary?
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:00 AM on October 16, 2017 [13 favorites]
Is your wife aware that you're thinking about maybe moving away soon? Because to me, there seems like a straight line from "my husband is talking about moving countries" and "I am purchasing a non-jointly-owned home in this country and moving my mom in."
Does she maybe resent the idea of potentially moving away from her home country again? Does she maybe resent the fact that you guys own property in your home country, and thus have established roots there, while treating residency in her home country as temporary?
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:00 AM on October 16, 2017 [13 favorites]
I don't have an lump sum large enough to contribute to the purchase (my wife wants 50% contribution or nothing)
Did you actually offer (or are you able) to contribute less than 50%? This seems like an odd line for her to draw.
posted by Room 641-A at 7:08 AM on October 16, 2017 [1 favorite]
Did you actually offer (or are you able) to contribute less than 50%? This seems like an odd line for her to draw.
posted by Room 641-A at 7:08 AM on October 16, 2017 [1 favorite]
There is no "correct" in this situation. It's how the two of you want to live.
posted by Obscure Reference at 7:15 AM on October 16, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by Obscure Reference at 7:15 AM on October 16, 2017 [4 favorites]
Also, is there a circumstance in which you could contribute 50%? Like, if you sold stock, or what have you? I agree that the 50% line seems pretty weird unless she thought there was a way for you to do that - then it becomes "are you, like me, all in on living in this country/contributing to this house?" I see in some of your previous Asks you talk about having large sums and being interested in investment - did those go bust, or are they continuing pretty well and so you're unwilling to relinquish them?
posted by corb at 7:15 AM on October 16, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by corb at 7:15 AM on October 16, 2017 [1 favorite]
Your past posts mention having significant savings/ excess income. I suspect that while you frame it as you are not ABLE to contribute to the house purchase, your wife sees it as you are not WILLING to contribute.
I get the impression that you do not want to buy a house in this location. Typically purchasing real estate is a joint decision in a marriage. I think you two need to have a long conversation about each of your long-term plans. You both may come to a better understanding of each other that way.
But more directly answering your question: if you two maintain completely separate finances, then you shouldn't be taking advantage of her investment, in the same way that you shouldn't expect to live in a friend's home indefinitely without paying rent.
posted by metasarah at 7:26 AM on October 16, 2017 [18 favorites]
I get the impression that you do not want to buy a house in this location. Typically purchasing real estate is a joint decision in a marriage. I think you two need to have a long conversation about each of your long-term plans. You both may come to a better understanding of each other that way.
But more directly answering your question: if you two maintain completely separate finances, then you shouldn't be taking advantage of her investment, in the same way that you shouldn't expect to live in a friend's home indefinitely without paying rent.
posted by metasarah at 7:26 AM on October 16, 2017 [18 favorites]
I would accrue ownership of the home over time, however this is implies entering a long-term financial agreement, which I can't do for the same reasons why I cannot contribute to the house in the first place (not to mention that this would seem to be opening a legal minefield).
I agree with the others that she seems to be the odd one here. But, what downside do you see in your money being applied to accruing an ownership share in the house?
posted by JimN2TAW at 7:29 AM on October 16, 2017
I agree with the others that she seems to be the odd one here. But, what downside do you see in your money being applied to accruing an ownership share in the house?
posted by JimN2TAW at 7:29 AM on October 16, 2017
There may or may not be arguments for doing this, from a financial perspective. It may be that you aren't holding up your end of the business if you aren't contributing to the house financially.
As for the having-to-move-abroad thing - in the UK, non-Brits are not allowed to live in this country with their spouses unless their income is above the 40th percentile. Is this you, or are you in a comparable situation in another country? In that case, I can see how making a financial commitment to a house in your wife's country would be destructive and something to be avoided.
From a business perspective, and given that you have always kept your finances separate, your wife may be right. But that depends to what extent the business perspective is relevant. Paying rent and calling it "rent" may give you certain tenancy rights that you would not have if you were simply calling it "paying your share of the bills", so you might want to check the local laws about that. I can't help thinking it puts you at a disadvantage to live in a house your wife owns outright and you have no financial or legal stake in.
Emotionally, this reads, to me, like a husband asking his wife to call him "Sir". It would function as a constant reminder that the landowner is the one with the power. But that's just my gut reaction.
posted by tel3path at 7:40 AM on October 16, 2017 [3 favorites]
As for the having-to-move-abroad thing - in the UK, non-Brits are not allowed to live in this country with their spouses unless their income is above the 40th percentile. Is this you, or are you in a comparable situation in another country? In that case, I can see how making a financial commitment to a house in your wife's country would be destructive and something to be avoided.
From a business perspective, and given that you have always kept your finances separate, your wife may be right. But that depends to what extent the business perspective is relevant. Paying rent and calling it "rent" may give you certain tenancy rights that you would not have if you were simply calling it "paying your share of the bills", so you might want to check the local laws about that. I can't help thinking it puts you at a disadvantage to live in a house your wife owns outright and you have no financial or legal stake in.
Emotionally, this reads, to me, like a husband asking his wife to call him "Sir". It would function as a constant reminder that the landowner is the one with the power. But that's just my gut reaction.
posted by tel3path at 7:40 AM on October 16, 2017 [3 favorites]
Charging a spouse rent is weird, at least here in the US.
That being said, if you do have separate finances and want to maintain that, she can (1) loan you the money for half the house, (2) charge you reasonable market interest on it for a 30 year loan, (3) come up with a monthly repayment schedule that will look a lot like rent and (4) end up with both of you owning the house 50/50 which means no one pays rent.
This leaves you as equal partners on a day-by-day basis but protects her windfall so it's still just hers, which I guess is what she wants?
I kind of think this would be legally meaningless here in my state but your status may be different. Regardless it's just some accounting fiction as a married couple anyway to keep things divvied up. And a better one than rent, which to be consistent would move you into bizarre, marriage threatening situations all the time. (For example, you should charge for household work like cleaning the gutters or painting, since it's work on her rental property.)
posted by mark k at 7:45 AM on October 16, 2017 [4 favorites]
That being said, if you do have separate finances and want to maintain that, she can (1) loan you the money for half the house, (2) charge you reasonable market interest on it for a 30 year loan, (3) come up with a monthly repayment schedule that will look a lot like rent and (4) end up with both of you owning the house 50/50 which means no one pays rent.
This leaves you as equal partners on a day-by-day basis but protects her windfall so it's still just hers, which I guess is what she wants?
I kind of think this would be legally meaningless here in my state but your status may be different. Regardless it's just some accounting fiction as a married couple anyway to keep things divvied up. And a better one than rent, which to be consistent would move you into bizarre, marriage threatening situations all the time. (For example, you should charge for household work like cleaning the gutters or painting, since it's work on her rental property.)
posted by mark k at 7:45 AM on October 16, 2017 [4 favorites]
My wife says that this is nothing to do with making a profit and is purely because "it is not fair to live in a house for free". She considers this freeloading.
-What is your current division of household labor? That was the first thing I thought of when I saw the term "freeloading". You said you would be willing to pay for upkeep, but how are daily tasks allocated? Does your wife perceive that she does the bulk of household labor?
-Is your problem with use of the term 'rent' (along with the term freeloader)? If she was buying the house with a mortgage, and asked you to contribute X amount each month to the payment, would that bother you in the same way?
It seems like you don't have a problem with the money itself, but with the framing. Which makes the issue more of a relationship based problem than a financial one. (I agree that the framing is weird, btw.)
posted by a fiendish thingy at 7:48 AM on October 16, 2017
-What is your current division of household labor? That was the first thing I thought of when I saw the term "freeloading". You said you would be willing to pay for upkeep, but how are daily tasks allocated? Does your wife perceive that she does the bulk of household labor?
-Is your problem with use of the term 'rent' (along with the term freeloader)? If she was buying the house with a mortgage, and asked you to contribute X amount each month to the payment, would that bother you in the same way?
It seems like you don't have a problem with the money itself, but with the framing. Which makes the issue more of a relationship based problem than a financial one. (I agree that the framing is weird, btw.)
posted by a fiendish thingy at 7:48 AM on October 16, 2017
we currently live in my wife's home country and one or both of us may need to move abroad in the future (related to the uncertain employment prospects); I don't want to have a long-term financial commitment in this country if I am not living there (we already have commitments, including property, in my home country and those cause enough headaches).
What happens if/when one of you leaves the country and the other doesn't? It sounds like you're the one more likely to do that? Would it effectively end the relationship and leave her as a single mother with disproportionate amounts of childcare and reduced ability to find another partner to share costs with? It sounds like the two of you are less entwined than most people think of as marriage. Wanting to keep her finances in good shape should that come to pass is certainly understandable.
This is why it would be risky for me to get a significant mortgage at this point.
If the UK mortgage market is similar to the US's, it is somewhat irrational of her to want to buy a house outright, but you also seem disinterested in going with a mortgage or even owning property in England.
we have always kept our finances strictly separate except for household/childcare expenses (which we always split 50/50).
If she does indeed buy a house, that would no longer be true if you only paid upkeep costs, but calculating what is equitable is really tricky. As others have noted, she's giving up significant investment potential in the stock market and the like by putting it into real estate, so it's not exactly profiteering on her part to want some return on her investment. Is the major impetus of buying a house that you're in an area with surging costs and that she wants to lock in the current prices? If not, how viable is simply continuing to rent? If it's reasonable to do so, that's the most fair way to maintain your financial balance.
posted by Candleman at 7:55 AM on October 16, 2017 [1 favorite]
What happens if/when one of you leaves the country and the other doesn't? It sounds like you're the one more likely to do that? Would it effectively end the relationship and leave her as a single mother with disproportionate amounts of childcare and reduced ability to find another partner to share costs with? It sounds like the two of you are less entwined than most people think of as marriage. Wanting to keep her finances in good shape should that come to pass is certainly understandable.
This is why it would be risky for me to get a significant mortgage at this point.
If the UK mortgage market is similar to the US's, it is somewhat irrational of her to want to buy a house outright, but you also seem disinterested in going with a mortgage or even owning property in England.
we have always kept our finances strictly separate except for household/childcare expenses (which we always split 50/50).
If she does indeed buy a house, that would no longer be true if you only paid upkeep costs, but calculating what is equitable is really tricky. As others have noted, she's giving up significant investment potential in the stock market and the like by putting it into real estate, so it's not exactly profiteering on her part to want some return on her investment. Is the major impetus of buying a house that you're in an area with surging costs and that she wants to lock in the current prices? If not, how viable is simply continuing to rent? If it's reasonable to do so, that's the most fair way to maintain your financial balance.
posted by Candleman at 7:55 AM on October 16, 2017 [1 favorite]
With your update, and coming from the perspective of someone who keeps largely separate finances too so that part of it doesn't ring any warning bells for me, I'm leaning harder toward the "counselling" part of my earlier suggestion. This doesn't sound like it's actually about the house, it sounds like you two are going through a period of major change and are on somewhat different pages about what you want your relationship to look like when you come out the other end of this period. And I mean that in some really basic ways, like "what country will I be in." You've got an unusual situation here and "normal" isn't the right lens to apply to it. If you two had a shared vision for your future and a roadmap for getting there, it would probably not be this difficult for the financial arrangements to fall into place around it.
posted by Stacey at 7:58 AM on October 16, 2017 [9 favorites]
posted by Stacey at 7:58 AM on October 16, 2017 [9 favorites]
Nthing everyone who is saying that the dynamic here is unusual and unclear and so perhaps in some sense technical analysis is somewhat beside the point, but, in evaluating what's going on, you do need to get your head around some basic financial facts:
Money isn't free. I don't mean that in some epic general sense. I mean that if you buy something with cash, then that cash is no longer available to invest in an asset that might return better. This is a fact many people struggle with in trying to evaluate the return on buying real estate vs. renting: on the renting side of the ledger, you have to include the return you could get on the down payment if you invested it in an asset of roughly similar risk. I have money that I could be using for a down payment, but so far in my occasional idle glances have not found anything that has appealed to me within my price range. So the money sits in a Vanguard investment account, earning returns. If I ever do get around to buying, I will no longer be receiving those returns; instead, I will be getting the appreciation on the house, which may or may not match those returns.
So if the house doesn't appreciate in value (including leverage, usually, but, in your case, there would be none) more than, say, the stock market does, this apparently "free" living in a paid-for house is actually costing your wife those returns. This may be part of the financial, if not the emotional, reality she is responding to.
But you really need to consult a lawyer to determine what the implications would be of your either "paying rent" or not "paying rent." It may be that your "paying rent" helps maintain the property as an individual rather than a joint marital asset. On the other hand, it may be that her plan to have you essentially "buy in" to equity through rent over years won't actually work. I don't know what country this is and these rules tend to be country-specific and often quite technical.
From an emotional point of view, the framing you are both using with each other comes off as weird and harsh (though maybe not for your home countries?) but, setting aside what she may be doing wrong, the fact is, it's not that you don't have assets you couldn't contribute to the house (or a salary sufficient to make payments on a mortgage). You have assets, you just prefer to keep them for your own use, especially if you might be leaving the country. I know lots of people who prefer to handle money in nontraditional ways in their marriages, but it's mostly with an eye to ensuring that each contributes equally, or according to their individual earnings. To me, your attitude suggests a real lack of commitment and absence of a sense of a joint life together which is odd to have in an actual marriage.
posted by praemunire at 8:02 AM on October 16, 2017 [14 favorites]
Money isn't free. I don't mean that in some epic general sense. I mean that if you buy something with cash, then that cash is no longer available to invest in an asset that might return better. This is a fact many people struggle with in trying to evaluate the return on buying real estate vs. renting: on the renting side of the ledger, you have to include the return you could get on the down payment if you invested it in an asset of roughly similar risk. I have money that I could be using for a down payment, but so far in my occasional idle glances have not found anything that has appealed to me within my price range. So the money sits in a Vanguard investment account, earning returns. If I ever do get around to buying, I will no longer be receiving those returns; instead, I will be getting the appreciation on the house, which may or may not match those returns.
So if the house doesn't appreciate in value (including leverage, usually, but, in your case, there would be none) more than, say, the stock market does, this apparently "free" living in a paid-for house is actually costing your wife those returns. This may be part of the financial, if not the emotional, reality she is responding to.
But you really need to consult a lawyer to determine what the implications would be of your either "paying rent" or not "paying rent." It may be that your "paying rent" helps maintain the property as an individual rather than a joint marital asset. On the other hand, it may be that her plan to have you essentially "buy in" to equity through rent over years won't actually work. I don't know what country this is and these rules tend to be country-specific and often quite technical.
From an emotional point of view, the framing you are both using with each other comes off as weird and harsh (though maybe not for your home countries?) but, setting aside what she may be doing wrong, the fact is, it's not that you don't have assets you couldn't contribute to the house (or a salary sufficient to make payments on a mortgage). You have assets, you just prefer to keep them for your own use, especially if you might be leaving the country. I know lots of people who prefer to handle money in nontraditional ways in their marriages, but it's mostly with an eye to ensuring that each contributes equally, or according to their individual earnings. To me, your attitude suggests a real lack of commitment and absence of a sense of a joint life together which is odd to have in an actual marriage.
posted by praemunire at 8:02 AM on October 16, 2017 [14 favorites]
Yeah, with this information, I am coming around to your wife's frustration, even if I still agree that "freeloader" and "rent" are not the words you should be using.
You split expenses 50/50, but she's spending all her own money to make your housing arrangements and you are spending none. She's not okay with that. Half of upkeep is not enough--that's what you'd owe if you owned half the house. If you didn't HAVE the money--if you were paying some large debt or unemployed or, I don't know, living under an assumed name so couldn't own a bank account--in other words, if you COULD not contribute, it would seem churlish of her to insist you make it up to her. But you are CHOOSING not to pay money into this, while benefiting from her large outlay of money (and risk). So yeah, I don't blame her for not liking the scenario.
The problem is the idea that rent will resolve the imbalance. Or maybe the problem is that she decided to buy a house when you felt a purchase was not in your family's best interests. Or maybe it's that you shirk your share of expenses. Or maybe it's that you're both bean counting instead of making decisions together. Either way, you are not baldly in the right here, and it sounds like you both need some guidance in working together as a couple.
posted by gideonfrog at 8:03 AM on October 16, 2017 [22 favorites]
You split expenses 50/50, but she's spending all her own money to make your housing arrangements and you are spending none. She's not okay with that. Half of upkeep is not enough--that's what you'd owe if you owned half the house. If you didn't HAVE the money--if you were paying some large debt or unemployed or, I don't know, living under an assumed name so couldn't own a bank account--in other words, if you COULD not contribute, it would seem churlish of her to insist you make it up to her. But you are CHOOSING not to pay money into this, while benefiting from her large outlay of money (and risk). So yeah, I don't blame her for not liking the scenario.
The problem is the idea that rent will resolve the imbalance. Or maybe the problem is that she decided to buy a house when you felt a purchase was not in your family's best interests. Or maybe it's that you shirk your share of expenses. Or maybe it's that you're both bean counting instead of making decisions together. Either way, you are not baldly in the right here, and it sounds like you both need some guidance in working together as a couple.
posted by gideonfrog at 8:03 AM on October 16, 2017 [22 favorites]
It sounds to me that you and your wife are perhaps more functionally independent than most marriages - after all, it sounds like you potentially see a future where you move overseas (or she does) and she is interested in financially being fixed to her home country while you are not. That's probably contributing to the unease seen in responses upthread - your marriage, if it works for you, may indeed be an outlier or this while thing may be a flag for bigger issues. This arrangement feels more like one between roommates than a legally joined couple.
That said - in your particular arrangement, I do think some kind of rent + expenses deal is fair. Your wife is taking on all of the risk here - if the housing market craters, it will be her that will be underwater legally and not you. If something occurs for which the property owner is liable (including environmental issues, property disputes, injuries on the property) she may indeed be the sole liable party. You are also more free to walk away unharmed - say you take that overseas job and need to leave tomorrow. You do not have property upkeep concerns or a house to sell.
I think your rent should take into account the fact you are not accruing any benefit to asset appreciation* - i.e., not paying half the mortgage plus expenses necessarily. I wonder as well how you deal with improvements or maintenance - as the lessor, she should have carte blanche to improve or change the property as she sees fit, but you should also not be paying for things like replacing the fridge or if a roof leaks. Is her expectation that you do that? If so - this is not a rental arrangement where I would pay half of everything as it includes risk to you.
I do think the middle ground here is some kind of loan agreement between the two of you - allowing you to buy back the initial downpayment from her via a payment each month, and once cleared then the two of you jointly own the home. That will require you to stop saddling your wife with all the risk, and her to stop seeing you as a tenant, but if you can get to that place it seems to make the most sense.
* I would object, on your wife's behalf, if she either does not have a will or has one with you as the beneficiary. In this case, you would inherit an asset and should then be paying according to the value of that asset in some way.
posted by notorious medium at 8:26 AM on October 16, 2017 [5 favorites]
That said - in your particular arrangement, I do think some kind of rent + expenses deal is fair. Your wife is taking on all of the risk here - if the housing market craters, it will be her that will be underwater legally and not you. If something occurs for which the property owner is liable (including environmental issues, property disputes, injuries on the property) she may indeed be the sole liable party. You are also more free to walk away unharmed - say you take that overseas job and need to leave tomorrow. You do not have property upkeep concerns or a house to sell.
I think your rent should take into account the fact you are not accruing any benefit to asset appreciation* - i.e., not paying half the mortgage plus expenses necessarily. I wonder as well how you deal with improvements or maintenance - as the lessor, she should have carte blanche to improve or change the property as she sees fit, but you should also not be paying for things like replacing the fridge or if a roof leaks. Is her expectation that you do that? If so - this is not a rental arrangement where I would pay half of everything as it includes risk to you.
I do think the middle ground here is some kind of loan agreement between the two of you - allowing you to buy back the initial downpayment from her via a payment each month, and once cleared then the two of you jointly own the home. That will require you to stop saddling your wife with all the risk, and her to stop seeing you as a tenant, but if you can get to that place it seems to make the most sense.
* I would object, on your wife's behalf, if she either does not have a will or has one with you as the beneficiary. In this case, you would inherit an asset and should then be paying according to the value of that asset in some way.
posted by notorious medium at 8:26 AM on October 16, 2017 [5 favorites]
Just a small part of this equation: there are possible situations where she might end up on the hook for housing for her child and parent and this house purchase might be her way of solving that problem - maybe even especially so if she has to leave the country and needs them to be able to stay - and I think you characterizing that as "free rent" is a little facile.
It just feels like there's a real lack of a "teamwork" perspective here and you're looking for the coldest possible reading of the situation so you can be the most right.
posted by Lyn Never at 8:30 AM on October 16, 2017
It just feels like there's a real lack of a "teamwork" perspective here and you're looking for the coldest possible reading of the situation so you can be the most right.
posted by Lyn Never at 8:30 AM on October 16, 2017
we have always kept our finances strictly separate except for household/childcare expenses (which we always split 50/50). Both of us (currently) earn comfortable, broadly similar salaries, although she earns more than I do and recently came into a large sum of money (hence the house purchase).
To me, this seems like odd behavior for married people--all our income goes into the same account, from which bills are paid and investments are made. I could write my wife a rent check, but as soon as she deposited it, the money would be right back where it started. Honestly, I don't quite get the point of being married if you aren't essentially running one big joint estate.
On the other hand, since you have decided to keep everything strictly separate--yeah, I'm with her. If she's going to make a big financial outlay that you benefit from, then she needs more from you than splitting maintenance costs. If you aren't going to have the "everything is both of ours" kind of marriage, then you've got to do the "our finances are completely separate" sort of marriage in the fairest, most exacting way possible.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 8:30 AM on October 16, 2017 [9 favorites]
To me, this seems like odd behavior for married people--all our income goes into the same account, from which bills are paid and investments are made. I could write my wife a rent check, but as soon as she deposited it, the money would be right back where it started. Honestly, I don't quite get the point of being married if you aren't essentially running one big joint estate.
On the other hand, since you have decided to keep everything strictly separate--yeah, I'm with her. If she's going to make a big financial outlay that you benefit from, then she needs more from you than splitting maintenance costs. If you aren't going to have the "everything is both of ours" kind of marriage, then you've got to do the "our finances are completely separate" sort of marriage in the fairest, most exacting way possible.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 8:30 AM on October 16, 2017 [9 favorites]
Freeloading. Profiteering.
Any or all of the advice upthread might be useful in your situation. But: Freeloading. Profiteering.
Yikes. Every marriage is different, but it's hard to imagine working things out with love if those are the narrative descriptions you're each using.
Money issues can be a swamp. Good luck to you and your family.
posted by kestralwing at 8:33 AM on October 16, 2017 [9 favorites]
Any or all of the advice upthread might be useful in your situation. But: Freeloading. Profiteering.
Yikes. Every marriage is different, but it's hard to imagine working things out with love if those are the narrative descriptions you're each using.
Money issues can be a swamp. Good luck to you and your family.
posted by kestralwing at 8:33 AM on October 16, 2017 [9 favorites]
In a lot of places, being married would automatically make the house half yours even though she is paying for it 100%. I can understand why she wouldn't be ok with that and would want you to pay rent. The fact that she wants to use the rent to accrue ownership for you suggests she doesn't have nefarious motives here, she is trying to include you in ownership of the house in a way that's financially more equal than her buying a house with just her funds, which you then get to take advantage of for free, but you are balking.
posted by windykites at 8:33 AM on October 16, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by windykites at 8:33 AM on October 16, 2017 [1 favorite]
Your wife is doubling down on stability but you have other plans. That’s most of the issue plus some cultural differences regarding home ownership. You guys need to figure out what your plan is for the future.
posted by friendofstone at 8:36 AM on October 16, 2017 [8 favorites]
posted by friendofstone at 8:36 AM on October 16, 2017 [8 favorites]
Has she ever commented that you don't contribute enough to housework and childcare? The statistical odds (just given habitual gender roles) are that she and her mother do more than you do- is this accurate? If so, I think you should pay.
posted by pseudostrabismus at 8:51 AM on October 16, 2017
posted by pseudostrabismus at 8:51 AM on October 16, 2017
My wife says that this is nothing to do with making a profit and is purely because "it is not fair to live in a house for free". She considers this freeloading.
What strikes me as weird, even more than the weirdness of charging your spouse rent, is the whole attitude behind all this. I mean, apparently your wife doesn't consider her mother to be a freeloader, even though that lady is not expected to contribute one red cent.
In other words it isn't the expectation that you would share housing expenses (which would be totally reasonable), it's the terminology --- 'rent' not 'shared expenses', for instance --- and the disconnect between seeing her husband who has already said he would share those expenses as a potential freeloader, but not her mother who has been preemptively declared non-paying but is nevertheless not a freeloader.
I think you need some serious marriage counseling here, because this is such a giant bundle of red flags I suspect you have far more trouble than rent on a house.
posted by easily confused at 8:52 AM on October 16, 2017 [5 favorites]
What strikes me as weird, even more than the weirdness of charging your spouse rent, is the whole attitude behind all this. I mean, apparently your wife doesn't consider her mother to be a freeloader, even though that lady is not expected to contribute one red cent.
In other words it isn't the expectation that you would share housing expenses (which would be totally reasonable), it's the terminology --- 'rent' not 'shared expenses', for instance --- and the disconnect between seeing her husband who has already said he would share those expenses as a potential freeloader, but not her mother who has been preemptively declared non-paying but is nevertheless not a freeloader.
I think you need some serious marriage counseling here, because this is such a giant bundle of red flags I suspect you have far more trouble than rent on a house.
posted by easily confused at 8:52 AM on October 16, 2017 [5 favorites]
I note, OP, from your previous questions that you're a British citizen living abroad.
I am assuming that Brexit is contributing to your uncertainty about where you're going to live in the next few years, in both directions. And for those who don't know, Brexit would also affect the OP's wife's ability to move to Britain with him, see here for an explanation. Given the high cost of housing I can also understand why the OP might not want to liquidate his assets in the UK, since he/they might need to have a home to come back to post-Brexit.
I say this in case anyone is reading the situation as "OP might just decide to up and leave sometime soon". I read this as a matter of geopolitical instability, combined with the UK's explicit policy of denying immigrants the right to a family life.
posted by tel3path at 8:55 AM on October 16, 2017 [10 favorites]
I am assuming that Brexit is contributing to your uncertainty about where you're going to live in the next few years, in both directions. And for those who don't know, Brexit would also affect the OP's wife's ability to move to Britain with him, see here for an explanation. Given the high cost of housing I can also understand why the OP might not want to liquidate his assets in the UK, since he/they might need to have a home to come back to post-Brexit.
I say this in case anyone is reading the situation as "OP might just decide to up and leave sometime soon". I read this as a matter of geopolitical instability, combined with the UK's explicit policy of denying immigrants the right to a family life.
posted by tel3path at 8:55 AM on October 16, 2017 [10 favorites]
It is very common for people within a marriage to have wildly different incomes and assets. I've never heard of one charging another rent, and here in the US I suspect it would be considered socially unacceptable. I believe the non-stereotypical gender roles in this question are throwing answerers for a loop -- if a man were charging his wife (who worked but still had much less money) rent, the condemnation would be unanimous and immediate.
posted by miyabo at 8:59 AM on October 16, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by miyabo at 8:59 AM on October 16, 2017 [4 favorites]
The strangeness for me is the rental part-- which indicates you will never gain any ownership, so if it became your forever house, you'd still be paying rent when you're 90.
If you could put together some agreement that essentially details a rent-to-own agreement that would give you some growing ownership and value from your point of view and also enable her to feel the financial situation is balanced it could ease both your concerns.
So, if the home is $100,000, and you're paying $5000 a year in rent, you'd be essentially 'buying' 5% of the home each year up until you were both equal partners.
posted by Static Vagabond at 9:04 AM on October 16, 2017
If you could put together some agreement that essentially details a rent-to-own agreement that would give you some growing ownership and value from your point of view and also enable her to feel the financial situation is balanced it could ease both your concerns.
So, if the home is $100,000, and you're paying $5000 a year in rent, you'd be essentially 'buying' 5% of the home each year up until you were both equal partners.
posted by Static Vagabond at 9:04 AM on October 16, 2017
the disconnect between seeing her husband who has already said he would share those expenses as a potential freeloader, but not her mother who has been preemptively declared non-paying but is nevertheless not a freeloader
I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that her husband, unlike her mother, did not feed, clothe, and shelter her when she was a child.
(Also quite likely, though not as certain: the mother helps maintain the household and provides some child care.)
posted by praemunire at 9:07 AM on October 16, 2017 [14 favorites]
I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that her husband, unlike her mother, did not feed, clothe, and shelter her when she was a child.
(Also quite likely, though not as certain: the mother helps maintain the household and provides some child care.)
posted by praemunire at 9:07 AM on October 16, 2017 [14 favorites]
Okay given your clarification let me see if I can translate this and you tell me if I'm right or not:
Wife: I would like to buy a house instead of renting. We can afford the house of the size we need in the area we want if we both put down X.
You: I don't want to put down X.
Wife: But I feel strongly that we need this house to fit daughter and mom.
You: I don't want to liquidate my assets.
Wife: Okay... I can afford to buy it myself, but just as you contribute to rent now, I'd like you to keep contributing on a monthly basis, so that I get some of the windfall back for myself (which I consider fair given we keep our finances mostly separate, and I had some other plans for that money), and so that you do eventually accrue some equity stake in the house as well. I am effectively giving you an outright interest-free loan on your part of the purchase price.
Is that right?
If that's the case, I can see reason here. "I'm unilaterally buying a house and charging you to live in it, you freeloader" definitely seemed unreasonable on first go, but if the issue is that you're both currently contributing roughly equally to rent, and your wife wants to convert from renting to owning and is willing to put up her liquid assets to do so since you don't want to, *given your separated finances* I don't think it's unreasonable for her to ask that you continue paying your portion of the monthly "accommodation fee" that you *already pay toward your current rent, utilities, and maintenance/ugprades* that now ends up going into her account, to pay down your half of the house price, thus building up your equity. (At least informally. You should investigate with a lawyer what actual ownership looks like here and what separate legal agreements are worth putting together)
Otherwise, from her perspective, it looks like you've now dropped your biggest monthly expense (rent) in favor of her spending all her liquid assets, leaving her with no "fun" money and you with a fair bit more every month. Which, yeah, kinda sucks. Even though I can get behind the separate bank accounts thing no problem, I do feel like the largest household expenses are worth splitting as equally as possible whenever possible, even if some bookkeeping weirdness is behind it.
posted by olinerd at 9:52 AM on October 16, 2017 [37 favorites]
Wife: I would like to buy a house instead of renting. We can afford the house of the size we need in the area we want if we both put down X.
You: I don't want to put down X.
Wife: But I feel strongly that we need this house to fit daughter and mom.
You: I don't want to liquidate my assets.
Wife: Okay... I can afford to buy it myself, but just as you contribute to rent now, I'd like you to keep contributing on a monthly basis, so that I get some of the windfall back for myself (which I consider fair given we keep our finances mostly separate, and I had some other plans for that money), and so that you do eventually accrue some equity stake in the house as well. I am effectively giving you an outright interest-free loan on your part of the purchase price.
Is that right?
If that's the case, I can see reason here. "I'm unilaterally buying a house and charging you to live in it, you freeloader" definitely seemed unreasonable on first go, but if the issue is that you're both currently contributing roughly equally to rent, and your wife wants to convert from renting to owning and is willing to put up her liquid assets to do so since you don't want to, *given your separated finances* I don't think it's unreasonable for her to ask that you continue paying your portion of the monthly "accommodation fee" that you *already pay toward your current rent, utilities, and maintenance/ugprades* that now ends up going into her account, to pay down your half of the house price, thus building up your equity. (At least informally. You should investigate with a lawyer what actual ownership looks like here and what separate legal agreements are worth putting together)
Otherwise, from her perspective, it looks like you've now dropped your biggest monthly expense (rent) in favor of her spending all her liquid assets, leaving her with no "fun" money and you with a fair bit more every month. Which, yeah, kinda sucks. Even though I can get behind the separate bank accounts thing no problem, I do feel like the largest household expenses are worth splitting as equally as possible whenever possible, even if some bookkeeping weirdness is behind it.
posted by olinerd at 9:52 AM on October 16, 2017 [37 favorites]
For what it's worth, I think you phrased it a bit weird, but I could see arranging something similar. "Rent" isn't the phrase I would use at all here. I would say "Catching up on ownership".
It's great you guys are in the financial place you are in, and she is giving you an opportunity to be an equal contributor in the relationship!
I think it's totally reasonable to have someone "catch up on their contribution to owning" a house if it's a house both parties equally want.
For what it's worth, my spouse and I allocate contributions to shared expenses as a proportion of income. I usually end up paying 60% and she pays 40% of all shared expenses. We like it that way. You might arrange something similar, but for her to pay 100% and you pay 0% isn't fair. If you can't pay your share now (50/50 seems silly, but that's me) then you being willing to catch up to ownership in this method would go a long way to show that you are financially equally contributing.
posted by bbqturtle at 10:29 AM on October 16, 2017 [1 favorite]
It's great you guys are in the financial place you are in, and she is giving you an opportunity to be an equal contributor in the relationship!
I think it's totally reasonable to have someone "catch up on their contribution to owning" a house if it's a house both parties equally want.
For what it's worth, my spouse and I allocate contributions to shared expenses as a proportion of income. I usually end up paying 60% and she pays 40% of all shared expenses. We like it that way. You might arrange something similar, but for her to pay 100% and you pay 0% isn't fair. If you can't pay your share now (50/50 seems silly, but that's me) then you being willing to catch up to ownership in this method would go a long way to show that you are financially equally contributing.
posted by bbqturtle at 10:29 AM on October 16, 2017 [1 favorite]
Are you, in fact, willing and enthusiastic about contributing a sub-50%/above-0% share to the house? If so, and your wife is aware of this fact, what is her objection to you contributing to the purchase itself... why must it be 50%/50%?
posted by Keter at 10:38 AM on October 16, 2017
posted by Keter at 10:38 AM on October 16, 2017
I mean, you both need to contribute financially to your housing, ESPECIALLY if you have similar incomes. If she wants to do her contribution up front that's fine, but that doesn't mean you get to not contribute at all. I wouldn't call it rent but yeah, you do need to pay to live there, too.
posted by rabbitrabbit at 11:25 AM on October 16, 2017 [8 favorites]
posted by rabbitrabbit at 11:25 AM on October 16, 2017 [8 favorites]
If current geopolitical or employment considerations cause so many conflicts about buying a home for both of you, is there any reason why she wants to buy at the moment? Wouldn't holding on to more liquid assets for the next 2-5 years give you all more flexibility in light of what sounds quite a lot of uncertainty?
Is this really a once in a lifetime opportunity to buy a dream property? If not why do it? I say that as somebody who has property in the U.K. and is unlikely to move back there any time soon - not least because post brexit I may no longer be welcome.
posted by koahiatamadl at 11:47 AM on October 16, 2017
Is this really a once in a lifetime opportunity to buy a dream property? If not why do it? I say that as somebody who has property in the U.K. and is unlikely to move back there any time soon - not least because post brexit I may no longer be welcome.
posted by koahiatamadl at 11:47 AM on October 16, 2017
this is implies entering a long-term financial agreement, which I can't do for the same reasons why I cannot contribute to the house in the first place (not to mention that this would seem to be opening a legal minefield).
Assuming there are Good Reasons for this, I think your wife's wording is odd but her reasoning is absolutely correct. She is taking on all the liability for this property but purchasing it (again, curious why there is no mortgage and/or arrangement for her mom to also chip in) with no real buy-in from you and it seems like there is some friction with the two of you w/r/t liquidity and things you are encumbered with (like your other house?) and maybe she is trying to force this issue by making this option awkward for you, sort of passively? Because I could see "Oh hey you can't help buy the house but if you chip in money as we go, you can give you a share of ownership interest" as a totally reasonable thing that partners with unequal abilities to contribute might do. This is especially true if the rent is nominal (i.e. much less than you'd be paying for equivalent space) and the agreement is LEGAL (i.e. write it all down etc). So I get why you don't feel comfortable entering into a long term financial arrangement. On the other hand you are married in a dual country situation and already IN a long term financial situation which is complex enough and seem to have some conflicting values over what to do next.
You guys could maybe use a third party here, whether someone legal or someone financial, to give you solid advice so it's not just your feels vs her feels determining what you do.
posted by jessamyn at 11:53 AM on October 16, 2017 [2 favorites]
Assuming there are Good Reasons for this, I think your wife's wording is odd but her reasoning is absolutely correct. She is taking on all the liability for this property but purchasing it (again, curious why there is no mortgage and/or arrangement for her mom to also chip in) with no real buy-in from you and it seems like there is some friction with the two of you w/r/t liquidity and things you are encumbered with (like your other house?) and maybe she is trying to force this issue by making this option awkward for you, sort of passively? Because I could see "Oh hey you can't help buy the house but if you chip in money as we go, you can give you a share of ownership interest" as a totally reasonable thing that partners with unequal abilities to contribute might do. This is especially true if the rent is nominal (i.e. much less than you'd be paying for equivalent space) and the agreement is LEGAL (i.e. write it all down etc). So I get why you don't feel comfortable entering into a long term financial arrangement. On the other hand you are married in a dual country situation and already IN a long term financial situation which is complex enough and seem to have some conflicting values over what to do next.
You guys could maybe use a third party here, whether someone legal or someone financial, to give you solid advice so it's not just your feels vs her feels determining what you do.
posted by jessamyn at 11:53 AM on October 16, 2017 [2 favorites]
I think you need to consult a lawyer. In certain states anything purchased while you're married constitutes marital property and can be divided during a divorce. Houses and cars especially in my state. However, if the money she came into is some sort of inheritance, that's her money straight up--also, at least in my state.
Also, I would wonder why she's not considering your marriage a partnership and find a good marriage counselor.
posted by PJMoore at 12:08 PM on October 16, 2017
Also, I would wonder why she's not considering your marriage a partnership and find a good marriage counselor.
posted by PJMoore at 12:08 PM on October 16, 2017
Neither my daughter nor mother-in-law would contribute financially to the house (something I agree with).
so, if you have a daughter who is old enough that she could theoretically contribute financially even though you aren't asking her to, your wife's mother is presumably old enough to either be retired/elderly or getting close to it. is this not a huge factor in why your wife wants to buy a house now, in this particular place? if you leave the country, what will happen to her mother -- is she able to live independently such that she could maintain this four-person-sized house on her own, if it becomes her home? I am assuming a daughter who is willing to make the extreme sacrifice of inviting her mother to live with her would not just sell her mother's home out from under her when her husband gets a new job. or if she would, she'd have to help find her mother a new place to live. Where is the mother living now, and is it feasible for her to remain there if your wife doesn't buy the new house? this seems like it ought to be the center of the question.
I am happy to pay half the household costs, including maintenance/upkeep of the property.
half, not all?
posted by queenofbithynia at 12:10 PM on October 16, 2017
so, if you have a daughter who is old enough that she could theoretically contribute financially even though you aren't asking her to, your wife's mother is presumably old enough to either be retired/elderly or getting close to it. is this not a huge factor in why your wife wants to buy a house now, in this particular place? if you leave the country, what will happen to her mother -- is she able to live independently such that she could maintain this four-person-sized house on her own, if it becomes her home? I am assuming a daughter who is willing to make the extreme sacrifice of inviting her mother to live with her would not just sell her mother's home out from under her when her husband gets a new job. or if she would, she'd have to help find her mother a new place to live. Where is the mother living now, and is it feasible for her to remain there if your wife doesn't buy the new house? this seems like it ought to be the center of the question.
I am happy to pay half the household costs, including maintenance/upkeep of the property.
half, not all?
posted by queenofbithynia at 12:10 PM on October 16, 2017
No matter what you decide, please lawyer up. You are very risky ground here financially.
posted by FakeFreyja at 2:03 PM on October 16, 2017
posted by FakeFreyja at 2:03 PM on October 16, 2017
I am happy to pay half the household costs, including maintenance/upkeep of the property.
I think you should also be paying half of the mortgage. Since you are making similar incomes, I don't understand how you can justify doing otherwise (Unless maybe you adjust the amount slightly downwards since she makes a bit more than you).
My bias: I'm married, our accounts are all joint, I don't understand couples who keep separate finances, but that's their business.
All in all, though, this situation just doesn't make sense. I think you should see a couple's counselor.
posted by kitcat at 2:53 PM on October 16, 2017 [1 favorite]
I think you should also be paying half of the mortgage. Since you are making similar incomes, I don't understand how you can justify doing otherwise (Unless maybe you adjust the amount slightly downwards since she makes a bit more than you).
My bias: I'm married, our accounts are all joint, I don't understand couples who keep separate finances, but that's their business.
All in all, though, this situation just doesn't make sense. I think you should see a couple's counselor.
posted by kitcat at 2:53 PM on October 16, 2017 [1 favorite]
This whole thing seems really confusing to me, but overall it seems like you guys need to be more on the same "team" -- even if that doesn't mean combining finances entirely. I would suggest couples counseling, and potentially also seeing a financial planner. The biggest red flags here are not the specific ways you guys decide to divide up finances/money/housing expenses (which lots of married couples do lots of different ways that work well for them), but rather that your language around finances involves words like "freeloading" and "profiteering." Even if you guys want to keep finances separate to some extent, if you're going to share housing and a child, you do need to be able to approach spending on these things as a team and with some shared goals/priorities/etc.
Also it seems very odd to say you want to avoid a "long term financial agreement" when your wife is buying a house? I mean, as a couple you guys will have a long term financial stake in this house whether it is technically your money or not. Should something terrible happen and the house burns down, I hope your response wouldn't be "Oh gee, guess my wife is homeless now! Glad I kept that emergency fund for me alone!" At some point, I feel like at a minimum being married means you're promising to support your partner should things go south for them, and it seems like that necessarily entails long-term financial entanglement even if you guys have separate checking/savings accounts on a day-to-day basis.
posted by rainbowbrite at 3:19 PM on October 16, 2017 [3 favorites]
Also it seems very odd to say you want to avoid a "long term financial agreement" when your wife is buying a house? I mean, as a couple you guys will have a long term financial stake in this house whether it is technically your money or not. Should something terrible happen and the house burns down, I hope your response wouldn't be "Oh gee, guess my wife is homeless now! Glad I kept that emergency fund for me alone!" At some point, I feel like at a minimum being married means you're promising to support your partner should things go south for them, and it seems like that necessarily entails long-term financial entanglement even if you guys have separate checking/savings accounts on a day-to-day basis.
posted by rainbowbrite at 3:19 PM on October 16, 2017 [3 favorites]
Hmmm... My guess is you two are due for some big talks about what kind of relationship you each want to be in. This is a great use of couples counseling: a neutral venue to talk about the big stuff and the hard stuff.
posted by latkes at 3:47 PM on October 16, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by latkes at 3:47 PM on October 16, 2017 [1 favorite]
You are offering to pay x amount to cover household expenses and upkeep, which most would consider "rent". Your wife wants you to pay more than you want or feel that you need to pay, but what exactly is that amount? Is there any way to reach an agreement on the amount of money you are paying, and just forget about what to call it? Many people have screwed up relationships, but relationships work when two people can come to an agreement that works for them. What is it going to take to make this situation work for you both. Do you want to be part of the solution, or do you want to be part of the problem?
posted by momochan at 4:31 PM on October 16, 2017
posted by momochan at 4:31 PM on October 16, 2017
One alternative proposal for you might be, I'm willing to contribute X up front. She matches that. (Selling price - 2X) is how much you get a loan for. Each pay half of the loan payments and maintenance costs. (Mitigates your anxiety about keeping some of your money liquid for the future.)
Or, she pays (price / 2). You get a loan yourself for (price / 2). You buy the house together. You pay off the loan over time out of your money. (Now you don't spend any of your money up front, but still contribute half by paying it over time, without the weirdness of paying it to her in a landlord/tenant relationship.)
posted by ctmf at 4:33 PM on October 16, 2017
Or, she pays (price / 2). You get a loan yourself for (price / 2). You buy the house together. You pay off the loan over time out of your money. (Now you don't spend any of your money up front, but still contribute half by paying it over time, without the weirdness of paying it to her in a landlord/tenant relationship.)
posted by ctmf at 4:33 PM on October 16, 2017
(option 2 might be harder to get than it sounds, with only 1/2 ownership as collateral)
posted by ctmf at 4:37 PM on October 16, 2017
posted by ctmf at 4:37 PM on October 16, 2017
(we already have commitments, including property, in my home country and those cause enough headaches).
It's also quite possible that the above is coming into play in a way that can be hard to understand if you're not living it.
My husband and I own property in his home country, and none in my home country where we live. We also keep our finances quite separate.
The thing is that while he thinks of the property he owns as ours, I am fairly sure that for all intents and purposes, because of my status in his country and their application of wills and inheritance law, that if he left me, or even if he died, it would be extremely difficult if not impossible for me to actually lay claim to any of those assets.
So while he feels like those properties are enough, and that due to his finances it doesn't make sense to buy property here, I am left knowing that if our marriage ended I would be left with nothing. For context, I'm not even a person that is overly concerned with owning property nor do we have kids to worry about, yet this still chafes sometimes, especially since it is the investments I have made in our joint expenses (more than half) that have enabled him to buy these properties.
Which is to say that I think this is probably far more complicated than a bunch of internet strangers can understand having only heard one side. Personally I don't think her request is unreasonable given the follow up information and wonder if the unfortunate framing could have anything to do with language/cultural differences.
Regardless, I think the two of you need to drill down further into both your interests in this situation and move beyond the freeloading vs rent language. Also, If you do come from two different cultures you can't underestimate the role that dynamic plays in any conversation, let alone one that is on a topic as loaded as money.
posted by scrute at 5:04 PM on October 16, 2017 [4 favorites]
It's also quite possible that the above is coming into play in a way that can be hard to understand if you're not living it.
My husband and I own property in his home country, and none in my home country where we live. We also keep our finances quite separate.
The thing is that while he thinks of the property he owns as ours, I am fairly sure that for all intents and purposes, because of my status in his country and their application of wills and inheritance law, that if he left me, or even if he died, it would be extremely difficult if not impossible for me to actually lay claim to any of those assets.
So while he feels like those properties are enough, and that due to his finances it doesn't make sense to buy property here, I am left knowing that if our marriage ended I would be left with nothing. For context, I'm not even a person that is overly concerned with owning property nor do we have kids to worry about, yet this still chafes sometimes, especially since it is the investments I have made in our joint expenses (more than half) that have enabled him to buy these properties.
Which is to say that I think this is probably far more complicated than a bunch of internet strangers can understand having only heard one side. Personally I don't think her request is unreasonable given the follow up information and wonder if the unfortunate framing could have anything to do with language/cultural differences.
Regardless, I think the two of you need to drill down further into both your interests in this situation and move beyond the freeloading vs rent language. Also, If you do come from two different cultures you can't underestimate the role that dynamic plays in any conversation, let alone one that is on a topic as loaded as money.
posted by scrute at 5:04 PM on October 16, 2017 [4 favorites]
Sounds like there is way more to this and that the two of y'all need to have a great big talk.
posted by turbid dahlia at 5:31 PM on October 16, 2017
posted by turbid dahlia at 5:31 PM on October 16, 2017
I really don't understand this argument. You say that you can't enter into a long-term financial obligation in your wife's country. However, you already have one there - your daughter.
A house is a lighter financial obligation than a child. If something goes wrong, you can liquidate your house. You cannot liquidate a child. Further, since you have this child, you might like to rethink your stance on forgoing your stake in the house. Again, in the event things go south, you might require access to this capital to secure appropriate housing for you and your daughter. Your choices here affect her, not just you.
This dispute between you and your wife has taken an unfortunate tone and in my world it would be marriage threatening. You need couples counselling and a financial planner.
posted by crazycanuck at 7:27 PM on October 16, 2017 [5 favorites]
A house is a lighter financial obligation than a child. If something goes wrong, you can liquidate your house. You cannot liquidate a child. Further, since you have this child, you might like to rethink your stance on forgoing your stake in the house. Again, in the event things go south, you might require access to this capital to secure appropriate housing for you and your daughter. Your choices here affect her, not just you.
This dispute between you and your wife has taken an unfortunate tone and in my world it would be marriage threatening. You need couples counselling and a financial planner.
posted by crazycanuck at 7:27 PM on October 16, 2017 [5 favorites]
My initial reaction was, this sounds nuts, and I still basically agree w/ all the people who have said this is not good.
HOWEVER, on reading your update, it seems to me that what's going on is that you and your wife's future together is extremely unsettled right now. Right now you're living together, and you have a kid, but either or both of you could leave the country at some unspecified point, and you're saving up for a major expense (school) that, in the short term, could take you out of the country and, in the longer term, might change your whole planning outlook on life.
You are technically married, but your wife is not treating you like a partner perhaps because she doesn't really believe that you are. You really could be gone tomorrow (or she could). That puts her in the mentality of, if this is not a real partnership, I guess I better get something else out of it. If this is for the long haul, then it doesn't really matter whether you kick in "rent" on top of what you see as your share of expenses; in the long run you're sharing the house along with all the resources you both need. But if this is a short-term arrangement that's no longer true.
Just a thought.
posted by grobstein at 7:29 PM on October 16, 2017 [1 favorite]
HOWEVER, on reading your update, it seems to me that what's going on is that you and your wife's future together is extremely unsettled right now. Right now you're living together, and you have a kid, but either or both of you could leave the country at some unspecified point, and you're saving up for a major expense (school) that, in the short term, could take you out of the country and, in the longer term, might change your whole planning outlook on life.
You are technically married, but your wife is not treating you like a partner perhaps because she doesn't really believe that you are. You really could be gone tomorrow (or she could). That puts her in the mentality of, if this is not a real partnership, I guess I better get something else out of it. If this is for the long haul, then it doesn't really matter whether you kick in "rent" on top of what you see as your share of expenses; in the long run you're sharing the house along with all the resources you both need. But if this is a short-term arrangement that's no longer true.
Just a thought.
posted by grobstein at 7:29 PM on October 16, 2017 [1 favorite]
It seems like you are sure you don't want to own any part of this house.
I don't know how it works in that country, but in some states in the US a spouse would be considered a co-owner by default, unless you had a "sole and separate" agreement. Even then, you'd need to do things like be sure never to pay for maintenance or upkeep yourself. And it would definitely make sense to charge the non-owner spouse rent (though it's possible the owner spouse might also pay rent as well, and own the house through a separate business entity).
You should talk to a real estate lawyer in your area to get this straightened out.
Whether or not there is a mortgage has no relationship to whether there is profiteering involved, you seem to have a strange understanding of this. Read about time value of money and opportunity cost.
How odd that you ask us what a fair rent would be -- surely you are aware that typical rents vary greatly depending on location, amenities, etc???
posted by yohko at 9:43 PM on October 16, 2017 [1 favorite]
I don't know how it works in that country, but in some states in the US a spouse would be considered a co-owner by default, unless you had a "sole and separate" agreement. Even then, you'd need to do things like be sure never to pay for maintenance or upkeep yourself. And it would definitely make sense to charge the non-owner spouse rent (though it's possible the owner spouse might also pay rent as well, and own the house through a separate business entity).
You should talk to a real estate lawyer in your area to get this straightened out.
Whether or not there is a mortgage has no relationship to whether there is profiteering involved, you seem to have a strange understanding of this. Read about time value of money and opportunity cost.
How odd that you ask us what a fair rent would be -- surely you are aware that typical rents vary greatly depending on location, amenities, etc???
posted by yohko at 9:43 PM on October 16, 2017 [1 favorite]
A lot depends on the country you're in, which country you married in, what type of marriage contract you have in that country, and how it translates to the law of the country you're living in.
Inheritance is really complicated in a few Western European countries – I know in France it's such a minefield that a lot of couples do things such as your wife is proposing. Especially those with separate assets. It's actually a way to ensure that you have the right to continue living in the house were she ever to pass away – as a contractual renter you can't be kicked out. Whereas, believe it or not, if you were "just" a husband under a separated assets contract? Her mother could sell the house.
I'm surprised you're not more specific about the legal issues because they're pretty huge and could impact your future significantly.
posted by fraula at 2:44 AM on October 17, 2017 [6 favorites]
Inheritance is really complicated in a few Western European countries – I know in France it's such a minefield that a lot of couples do things such as your wife is proposing. Especially those with separate assets. It's actually a way to ensure that you have the right to continue living in the house were she ever to pass away – as a contractual renter you can't be kicked out. Whereas, believe it or not, if you were "just" a husband under a separated assets contract? Her mother could sell the house.
I'm surprised you're not more specific about the legal issues because they're pretty huge and could impact your future significantly.
posted by fraula at 2:44 AM on October 17, 2017 [6 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by Kriesa at 4:32 AM on October 16, 2017 [92 favorites]