i drove a guy away and am losing my mind obsessing over it
May 25, 2017 4:18 PM Subscribe
I ended a 5 month relationship with a guy who was on the fence about commitment, having recently gotten out of a LTR, and I'm now torturing myself with regret. i can't stop obsessively replaying what happened and thinking about what i should have done differently.
okay, so, I'm a 32 year old woman, he's a 35 year old man. we dated for five months, but the last month was pretty bad. basically, we jumped into sex and started seeing each other regularly about 1-2 times a week. he had gotten out of a 5 year relationship a few months before and said he wanted to let things "unfold naturally," though we did commit to being sexually exclusive after about a month (i asked, he agreed- he’s naturally monogamous, and also it just simplified things, like being able to have unprotected sex). he said he wanted to continue exploring our relationship but had been deliberately holding back from jumping into a ‘full blown’ relationship, since he just got out of one and wasn’t ready. at two months i asked if we were actually exclusive, ie not seeing other people, as i'd noticed he'd been starting to follow girls on instagram who he could only know through tinder (we'd known each other through the arts scene but formally met up through tinder). he said he didn't want to commit to the label of exclusive, as that would mean we were an official couple, which he wasn't ready for, but that he wasn't pursuing other people and admitted it would be weird for either of us to date others at that point. i was a little anxious but decided to give it six weeks before asking anything else.
we continued hanging out, getting closer, and after 4 months of dating i asked him if he was my boyfriend. he said ‘i think so’ and then said some stuff about how he was uneasy about the label because he didn’t know what it meant, and he’d never had an explicit defining the relationship talk with a previous partner, it was always just sort of 'known'. i asked if we should both delete our tinder accounts, and he started kissing me and didn't want to answer that.
i had been pushing a bit more to get my needs met– more communication between seeing each other, hanging out reliably twice a week, getting a little more warmth and affirmation. and he seemed basically willing to meet my needs. i had felt sort of emotionally starved in the relationship because he could be pretty aloof and non-committal, but i was trying to accept him for how he was, and not reveal how needy i felt.
a week after that bf/gf talk, we had a little argument because he was 45 minutes late meeting me and it messed up our dinner plans. he had been late a lot before but i hadn’t expressed annoyance until then. but, we talked it out. then, later that night, i asked about dates for this camping trip we were supposed to take. i’d originally put it in my calendar for the following week, and he knew that, but now he said he thought it would be too early for him and he needed to make some more money first (he works for himself as an independent contractor). he had known all along that that week wouldn’t work, but didn’t communicate that to me because he didn’t want to ‘disappoint’ me in the moment. i asked when he would be able to go, and he was vague and said he had to look at dates. i asked if he even wanted to go, and he said he’d never had any doubt we would go until i started pressing him like this, and now he was feeling anxious because of all the ‘conflict’ we’d been having lately. i sort of freaked and asked if we were still okay, if we were still in a relationship etc, and he wouldn’t give me a straight answer, just said the more i asked the more it would become a self fulfilling prophecy. i felt HORRIBLE because it seemed like my insecurities had driven him away. in the morning i asked if we could hang out over the weekend and he said he didn't want to make any promises because i would be too upset if the plan changed. i asked if i'd ruined everything and he didn't respond.
he strung me along with this trip thing for the next two weeks, saying he still wanted to go, but he was anxious because of work and our conflicts and a bunch of other factors. we had been excitedly planning this trip for like 6 weeks so i was super disappointed and felt like it meant our relationship was falling apart. we didn’t end up going and he pulled way back. i made the mistake of pursuing him, asking when we would hang out, but he was increasingly unwilling to make any plans with me in advance, saying if the plan changed i’d be ‘furious’ like i was about the trip.
in the last week or so, we were barely texting. i also noticed he started following some girl on instagram with a private account, so it seemed like he was using his tinder again. he invited me, at 7 pm one friday night, to come to his city for dinner (he lives in oakland, i live in san francisco) but that he didn’t want me to stay over because he had to work in the morning. that seemed like a really crappy offer so i said it was a bit too short notice for me. he didn’t follow up to make a different plan. so the next night i told him i didn’t think we should do this anymore, and he was surprised and came over and we talked, and he said he didn’t feel like we were on the same page with what we wanted from the relationship, that he’d been trying to distance himself but hadn’t planned to stop seeing me entirely. he said it seemed like i wanted something ‘serious and steady’ which he wasn’t ready for. he also said that part of why he hadn't wanted me to sleep over was because we'd been talking about abortion and i said offhandedly that if i were to get pregnant at this stage in my life, i probably wouldn't have an abortion (i have an IUD though and DO NOT want to get pregnant). so i guess he was freaked out and didn't even want to have sex with me anymore! he had to leave because he had to get up early in the morning, so we left it unresolved, but we were both crying, and i asked if we could try to meet each other halfway, because we both wanted to keep seeing each other...
we had like four more breakup conversations. he said he had felt like things were going well but then i started pressing him too much and it had made him pull away and not want to go on the trip, and that he had only agreed to the bf/gf thing because he had felt like he ‘didn’t have a choice.’ he said he didn't think we should go back to what we'd been doing because i was always going to be wanting him to get more serious and that would be too stressful for both of us. finally, he said he wanted to keep seeing me but not be exclusive anymore, as his freedom is very important to him right now, and since the relationship had been getting 'too serious' for him. i said that wouldn’t work for me, and proposed we try it out for another month, exclusive, and try to meet each other halfway, without talking about the future or anything. he wouldn’t respond to that offer, so i said we needed to break up and have no contact. he was really upset by this and was crying, begging me not to block his number, etc.
now i am just torturing myself thinking about how i ruined everything. everything was going well and progressing and then i kept pressuring him. i wish i hadn’t asked for the label (what does the label matter, anyway) and that i had focused on the good things rather than on how my needs weren’t being met. i guess i am wondering if things would have worked out differently if i’d been chill, or if i hadn’t broken up with him so rashly and instead tried to wait and pull back and see what he did. or was it just inevitable because he didn’t really want a serious relationship? or did he want a serious relationship with me potentially, but then i drove him away? in one of our breakup convos i asked him if i'd been chill, would it all have fallen into place, and he said he didn't think so, that his mental state wasn't right, and he didn't think it would be good for him to go from one relationship to another. but his behavior within the relationship made me feel like we were progressing. i asked if he'd have kept stringing me along, and he said 'if you want to look at it that way, like the end goal is all that matters.' he also said that this was an issue in his last relationship- that he hadn't wanted to commit, ultimately, as commitment to him means being on a path to marriage and he wants to be 'as sure as possible' before doing that, and that part of the fear is missing out on meeting someone else. (whereas I just like knowing someone is my boyfriend and feeling like he's proud to call me his gf- i wasn't thinking of it as a lifelong commitment by any means!)
i know i have SERIOUS issues to work on. i'm in therapy and i know i have an anxious attachment style. i also think he was avoidant which triggered my insecurities more. but i'm still suffering under this idea that if i had just done x, y, or z at various times, i could have turned this one around... or if i hadn't said 'i don't think we should do this anymore' that night, maybe we could have continued and the dynamic would have improved. i like him so much and am afraid i messed up my chance for an amazing relationship. i have sunken into depression over this and can't stop obsessively thinking about how i should have behaved differently. at the time, it didn't feel like the relationship was offering enough for me, but now in retrospect it seems like it totally should have been enough, and my expectations were just impossibly high...
okay, so, I'm a 32 year old woman, he's a 35 year old man. we dated for five months, but the last month was pretty bad. basically, we jumped into sex and started seeing each other regularly about 1-2 times a week. he had gotten out of a 5 year relationship a few months before and said he wanted to let things "unfold naturally," though we did commit to being sexually exclusive after about a month (i asked, he agreed- he’s naturally monogamous, and also it just simplified things, like being able to have unprotected sex). he said he wanted to continue exploring our relationship but had been deliberately holding back from jumping into a ‘full blown’ relationship, since he just got out of one and wasn’t ready. at two months i asked if we were actually exclusive, ie not seeing other people, as i'd noticed he'd been starting to follow girls on instagram who he could only know through tinder (we'd known each other through the arts scene but formally met up through tinder). he said he didn't want to commit to the label of exclusive, as that would mean we were an official couple, which he wasn't ready for, but that he wasn't pursuing other people and admitted it would be weird for either of us to date others at that point. i was a little anxious but decided to give it six weeks before asking anything else.
we continued hanging out, getting closer, and after 4 months of dating i asked him if he was my boyfriend. he said ‘i think so’ and then said some stuff about how he was uneasy about the label because he didn’t know what it meant, and he’d never had an explicit defining the relationship talk with a previous partner, it was always just sort of 'known'. i asked if we should both delete our tinder accounts, and he started kissing me and didn't want to answer that.
i had been pushing a bit more to get my needs met– more communication between seeing each other, hanging out reliably twice a week, getting a little more warmth and affirmation. and he seemed basically willing to meet my needs. i had felt sort of emotionally starved in the relationship because he could be pretty aloof and non-committal, but i was trying to accept him for how he was, and not reveal how needy i felt.
a week after that bf/gf talk, we had a little argument because he was 45 minutes late meeting me and it messed up our dinner plans. he had been late a lot before but i hadn’t expressed annoyance until then. but, we talked it out. then, later that night, i asked about dates for this camping trip we were supposed to take. i’d originally put it in my calendar for the following week, and he knew that, but now he said he thought it would be too early for him and he needed to make some more money first (he works for himself as an independent contractor). he had known all along that that week wouldn’t work, but didn’t communicate that to me because he didn’t want to ‘disappoint’ me in the moment. i asked when he would be able to go, and he was vague and said he had to look at dates. i asked if he even wanted to go, and he said he’d never had any doubt we would go until i started pressing him like this, and now he was feeling anxious because of all the ‘conflict’ we’d been having lately. i sort of freaked and asked if we were still okay, if we were still in a relationship etc, and he wouldn’t give me a straight answer, just said the more i asked the more it would become a self fulfilling prophecy. i felt HORRIBLE because it seemed like my insecurities had driven him away. in the morning i asked if we could hang out over the weekend and he said he didn't want to make any promises because i would be too upset if the plan changed. i asked if i'd ruined everything and he didn't respond.
he strung me along with this trip thing for the next two weeks, saying he still wanted to go, but he was anxious because of work and our conflicts and a bunch of other factors. we had been excitedly planning this trip for like 6 weeks so i was super disappointed and felt like it meant our relationship was falling apart. we didn’t end up going and he pulled way back. i made the mistake of pursuing him, asking when we would hang out, but he was increasingly unwilling to make any plans with me in advance, saying if the plan changed i’d be ‘furious’ like i was about the trip.
in the last week or so, we were barely texting. i also noticed he started following some girl on instagram with a private account, so it seemed like he was using his tinder again. he invited me, at 7 pm one friday night, to come to his city for dinner (he lives in oakland, i live in san francisco) but that he didn’t want me to stay over because he had to work in the morning. that seemed like a really crappy offer so i said it was a bit too short notice for me. he didn’t follow up to make a different plan. so the next night i told him i didn’t think we should do this anymore, and he was surprised and came over and we talked, and he said he didn’t feel like we were on the same page with what we wanted from the relationship, that he’d been trying to distance himself but hadn’t planned to stop seeing me entirely. he said it seemed like i wanted something ‘serious and steady’ which he wasn’t ready for. he also said that part of why he hadn't wanted me to sleep over was because we'd been talking about abortion and i said offhandedly that if i were to get pregnant at this stage in my life, i probably wouldn't have an abortion (i have an IUD though and DO NOT want to get pregnant). so i guess he was freaked out and didn't even want to have sex with me anymore! he had to leave because he had to get up early in the morning, so we left it unresolved, but we were both crying, and i asked if we could try to meet each other halfway, because we both wanted to keep seeing each other...
we had like four more breakup conversations. he said he had felt like things were going well but then i started pressing him too much and it had made him pull away and not want to go on the trip, and that he had only agreed to the bf/gf thing because he had felt like he ‘didn’t have a choice.’ he said he didn't think we should go back to what we'd been doing because i was always going to be wanting him to get more serious and that would be too stressful for both of us. finally, he said he wanted to keep seeing me but not be exclusive anymore, as his freedom is very important to him right now, and since the relationship had been getting 'too serious' for him. i said that wouldn’t work for me, and proposed we try it out for another month, exclusive, and try to meet each other halfway, without talking about the future or anything. he wouldn’t respond to that offer, so i said we needed to break up and have no contact. he was really upset by this and was crying, begging me not to block his number, etc.
now i am just torturing myself thinking about how i ruined everything. everything was going well and progressing and then i kept pressuring him. i wish i hadn’t asked for the label (what does the label matter, anyway) and that i had focused on the good things rather than on how my needs weren’t being met. i guess i am wondering if things would have worked out differently if i’d been chill, or if i hadn’t broken up with him so rashly and instead tried to wait and pull back and see what he did. or was it just inevitable because he didn’t really want a serious relationship? or did he want a serious relationship with me potentially, but then i drove him away? in one of our breakup convos i asked him if i'd been chill, would it all have fallen into place, and he said he didn't think so, that his mental state wasn't right, and he didn't think it would be good for him to go from one relationship to another. but his behavior within the relationship made me feel like we were progressing. i asked if he'd have kept stringing me along, and he said 'if you want to look at it that way, like the end goal is all that matters.' he also said that this was an issue in his last relationship- that he hadn't wanted to commit, ultimately, as commitment to him means being on a path to marriage and he wants to be 'as sure as possible' before doing that, and that part of the fear is missing out on meeting someone else. (whereas I just like knowing someone is my boyfriend and feeling like he's proud to call me his gf- i wasn't thinking of it as a lifelong commitment by any means!)
i know i have SERIOUS issues to work on. i'm in therapy and i know i have an anxious attachment style. i also think he was avoidant which triggered my insecurities more. but i'm still suffering under this idea that if i had just done x, y, or z at various times, i could have turned this one around... or if i hadn't said 'i don't think we should do this anymore' that night, maybe we could have continued and the dynamic would have improved. i like him so much and am afraid i messed up my chance for an amazing relationship. i have sunken into depression over this and can't stop obsessively thinking about how i should have behaved differently. at the time, it didn't feel like the relationship was offering enough for me, but now in retrospect it seems like it totally should have been enough, and my expectations were just impossibly high...
You didn't drive him away. He just wasn't really 100% on board. You want to get in a relationship with someone who really wants to be in a relationship with you, someone who is thrilled to go on a camping trip with you, now, ASAP.
There is nothing you could have done differently. You did the best you could, and quite honestly it sounds like you were really cool with him and tried really hard to be understanding and relaxed. Society teaches us there are ways to hook someone, to trap a good man, etc but it is a big lie. There is no magic formula.
Also, great job on standing up for what you want, not accepting less and making a clean break. The other option would have been keeping hanging around and feeling sad, then seeing him and feeling more sad - no fun at all.
Also - you probably felt extra anxious because he wasn't that into having a relationship. NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND. Please stop blaming yourself. You gave it your best shot, didn't work out, sucks for him. *Hugs*
posted by Locochona at 4:38 PM on May 25, 2017 [39 favorites]
There is nothing you could have done differently. You did the best you could, and quite honestly it sounds like you were really cool with him and tried really hard to be understanding and relaxed. Society teaches us there are ways to hook someone, to trap a good man, etc but it is a big lie. There is no magic formula.
Also, great job on standing up for what you want, not accepting less and making a clean break. The other option would have been keeping hanging around and feeling sad, then seeing him and feeling more sad - no fun at all.
Also - you probably felt extra anxious because he wasn't that into having a relationship. NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND. Please stop blaming yourself. You gave it your best shot, didn't work out, sucks for him. *Hugs*
posted by Locochona at 4:38 PM on May 25, 2017 [39 favorites]
You two were not in on the same page. He was being avoidant and you don't want that. It's good you were stating your needs and he was stating his. He didn't want to be in a relationship. From your post, you do want to be in a relationship. You two just weren't a match, and it wasn't going to turn into a good match if you hadn't expressed your needs. In fact, it was just going to turn into you feeling bad because he wasn't meeting your normal needs. Good work getting out of this mess.
It does sound like you have some anxious attachment going on. This guy was definitely trigger that for you, and again this was just not going to work. Idk how attachment styles really change but you could look for a partner with a secure one.
posted by Kalmya at 4:41 PM on May 25, 2017 [6 favorites]
It does sound like you have some anxious attachment going on. This guy was definitely trigger that for you, and again this was just not going to work. Idk how attachment styles really change but you could look for a partner with a secure one.
posted by Kalmya at 4:41 PM on May 25, 2017 [6 favorites]
Please talk to your therapist about having intrusive thoughts about the end of the relationship, okay?
In your second-to-last paragraph, I feel like you're saying, "If only I'd been the Cool Girl. If only I'd been a doormat and not asked for what I needed. *Then* I would be happy!" And I've been in that place - full of regrets and remorse about drawing a hard boundary for myself.
But being a doormat and not asking for what you need *wouldn't* actually have made you happy! It just would've lead to you feeling insecure and unfulfilled while Mr. "His freedom is very important to him right now" jerked you around and browsed for other options.
You did what you needed for yourself! Don't listen to the little undermining voice that tells you that you hurt yourself by having boundaries.
posted by Squeak Attack at 4:42 PM on May 25, 2017 [18 favorites]
In your second-to-last paragraph, I feel like you're saying, "If only I'd been the Cool Girl. If only I'd been a doormat and not asked for what I needed. *Then* I would be happy!" And I've been in that place - full of regrets and remorse about drawing a hard boundary for myself.
But being a doormat and not asking for what you need *wouldn't* actually have made you happy! It just would've lead to you feeling insecure and unfulfilled while Mr. "His freedom is very important to him right now" jerked you around and browsed for other options.
You did what you needed for yourself! Don't listen to the little undermining voice that tells you that you hurt yourself by having boundaries.
posted by Squeak Attack at 4:42 PM on May 25, 2017 [18 favorites]
i wish i hadn’t asked for the label (what does the label matter, anyway) and that i had focused on the good things rather than on how my needs weren’t being met. i guess i am wondering if things would have worked out differently if i’d been chill...
You know, maybe? Maybe if you'd been able to squish your needs down into a teeny-tiny little box and demanded absolutely nothing and been absolutely, 100% attentive to his every want and need without ever attending to your own, it's possible that he would have eventually decided he wanted to be in relationship with you. But also he might have decided that he didn't want to be with you, anyway! it's possible -even likely!- that nothing you did mattered!
Here is what happened, with all the thoughts and emotions and analysis stripped away:
1. A person you met didn't want to get into a relationship.
2. You decided that you wanted to be in a relationship with this person and you tried to make it happen.
3. The person continued to not want to be in a relationship with you.
Basically, this is a story of you not having the power to get what you want. This wall of text that you wrote (which frankly I also could have written about every relationship I've ever had) is just your brain chewing away, trying to distract you from your own powerlessness, and the fundamental truth that basically there was nothing you could have done about the situation. Other people are independent actors who sometimes make choices you don't want them to make. When your brain does this, it feels like insecurity, but in fact, it's the opposite - it's your (our, everyone's) giant ego rearing up and telling you all these lies about how there's no way you were powerless, you could absolutely, 100% have controlled the situation if only you'd behaved a little differently and exerted a little more control over yourself and every one around you because YOU HAVE SO MUCH POWER. No you don't.
When somebody doesn't want to be in a relationship with you, there's pretty much nothing you can do about it. It sucks! But it is also a relief, if you can really, truly understand it, because that means there's no real point in trying to squish yourself down into a tiny needless box because not only is it miserable, it doesn't even work. That's freeing, I think, when you can get yourself to remember it. And when you let your ego do its flailing, I bet the memory of this guy will actually fade really quickly.
Hugs, and good luck.
posted by pretentious illiterate at 4:44 PM on May 25, 2017 [73 favorites]
You know, maybe? Maybe if you'd been able to squish your needs down into a teeny-tiny little box and demanded absolutely nothing and been absolutely, 100% attentive to his every want and need without ever attending to your own, it's possible that he would have eventually decided he wanted to be in relationship with you. But also he might have decided that he didn't want to be with you, anyway! it's possible -even likely!- that nothing you did mattered!
Here is what happened, with all the thoughts and emotions and analysis stripped away:
1. A person you met didn't want to get into a relationship.
2. You decided that you wanted to be in a relationship with this person and you tried to make it happen.
3. The person continued to not want to be in a relationship with you.
Basically, this is a story of you not having the power to get what you want. This wall of text that you wrote (which frankly I also could have written about every relationship I've ever had) is just your brain chewing away, trying to distract you from your own powerlessness, and the fundamental truth that basically there was nothing you could have done about the situation. Other people are independent actors who sometimes make choices you don't want them to make. When your brain does this, it feels like insecurity, but in fact, it's the opposite - it's your (our, everyone's) giant ego rearing up and telling you all these lies about how there's no way you were powerless, you could absolutely, 100% have controlled the situation if only you'd behaved a little differently and exerted a little more control over yourself and every one around you because YOU HAVE SO MUCH POWER. No you don't.
When somebody doesn't want to be in a relationship with you, there's pretty much nothing you can do about it. It sucks! But it is also a relief, if you can really, truly understand it, because that means there's no real point in trying to squish yourself down into a tiny needless box because not only is it miserable, it doesn't even work. That's freeing, I think, when you can get yourself to remember it. And when you let your ego do its flailing, I bet the memory of this guy will actually fade really quickly.
Hugs, and good luck.
posted by pretentious illiterate at 4:44 PM on May 25, 2017 [73 favorites]
No need to worry- there's nothing you could have done. He was never completely on board, at all. He liked you and wanted you around, but didn't want to commit and also probably was seeing other women. You did the right thing by breaking it off! You did NOT drive him away.
posted by bearette at 4:47 PM on May 25, 2017 [13 favorites]
posted by bearette at 4:47 PM on May 25, 2017 [13 favorites]
So... this is a lot to unpack. The short version I am going to give you is this: he was not going to become an amazing relationship partner. He's 35, he is cool with no real defined labels (and you had to urge each milestone in the tiny time frame you had with him) y'all were already into unprotected sex after one month because you agreed on exclusivity that was verbal at best, he was chronically late and you didn't set good boundaries on your relationship expectations from the getgo.
5 month relationship shouldn't have become this serious in that short of a timespan. Yes, you need to work on some things and that shouldn't make you feel bad. We all gotta do that continuously to be good partners. This guy was never going to be the work-on-it-until-we're-awesome partner. Get off the hamsterwheel of blaming yourself for having high expectations (standards are good and you should always seek to raise the bar!) and realize that there are going to be so many quality partners in your life as long as you remain open to the possibility they exist, learn to set boundaries, and really get open with a partner about what you already feel as you feel it.
Anyone that has a problem with honesty about what you want in a lover or boyfriend? Probably not a good fit for you. You'd honestly rather know that in the first week or two than six months down the road, especially if you tend to get attached in a faster fashion.
posted by missh at 4:49 PM on May 25, 2017 [5 favorites]
5 month relationship shouldn't have become this serious in that short of a timespan. Yes, you need to work on some things and that shouldn't make you feel bad. We all gotta do that continuously to be good partners. This guy was never going to be the work-on-it-until-we're-awesome partner. Get off the hamsterwheel of blaming yourself for having high expectations (standards are good and you should always seek to raise the bar!) and realize that there are going to be so many quality partners in your life as long as you remain open to the possibility they exist, learn to set boundaries, and really get open with a partner about what you already feel as you feel it.
Anyone that has a problem with honesty about what you want in a lover or boyfriend? Probably not a good fit for you. You'd honestly rather know that in the first week or two than six months down the road, especially if you tend to get attached in a faster fashion.
posted by missh at 4:49 PM on May 25, 2017 [5 favorites]
Also, he was being pretty disrespectful to you. Why worry about "driving someone away" who is not treating you right? In a few months, you'll feel like you dodged a bullet.
posted by bearette at 4:49 PM on May 25, 2017 [13 favorites]
posted by bearette at 4:49 PM on May 25, 2017 [13 favorites]
You didn't drive him away. You asked for what you needed, and he did not have it.
And yeah, fuck chill. I have tried so hard to be the chill woman for years - secretly wanting tons more than I was getting but playing it cool, waiting to see what might develop - and it has gotten me NOWHERE. It seems to attract men who are happy to spend time with me until I express needs - then ... buh bye.
You deserve to be with someone who is very clear about wanting a relationship with you. And who can talk about his own needs by clearly communicating.
Good luck.
posted by bunderful at 4:49 PM on May 25, 2017 [21 favorites]
And yeah, fuck chill. I have tried so hard to be the chill woman for years - secretly wanting tons more than I was getting but playing it cool, waiting to see what might develop - and it has gotten me NOWHERE. It seems to attract men who are happy to spend time with me until I express needs - then ... buh bye.
You deserve to be with someone who is very clear about wanting a relationship with you. And who can talk about his own needs by clearly communicating.
Good luck.
posted by bunderful at 4:49 PM on May 25, 2017 [21 favorites]
was it just inevitable because he didn’t really want a serious relationship? or did he want a serious relationship with me potentially, but then i drove him away?
Well, it can't be #2, because he told you repeatedly with his words and his actions that he did not want a serious relationship with you. You offered it and he turn it down.
So it must be #1.
It stings, but it's just the way it is. Mutual, lasting love is rare. I hope you find it. I can tell you for sure you weren't going to find it with him, so it's good he didn't waste more of your time.
Also, be careful with guys who just got out of LTRs. They tend to be very squirrelly and erratic for a while. Several months, at least.
posted by fingersandtoes at 4:57 PM on May 25, 2017 [10 favorites]
Well, it can't be #2, because he told you repeatedly with his words and his actions that he did not want a serious relationship with you. You offered it and he turn it down.
So it must be #1.
It stings, but it's just the way it is. Mutual, lasting love is rare. I hope you find it. I can tell you for sure you weren't going to find it with him, so it's good he didn't waste more of your time.
Also, be careful with guys who just got out of LTRs. They tend to be very squirrelly and erratic for a while. Several months, at least.
posted by fingersandtoes at 4:57 PM on May 25, 2017 [10 favorites]
Your needs are 1000% percent valid and at no point should you feel like you pushed too hard. I mean, for crying out loud, I would expect confirmation of camping trip dates at LEAST a couple weeks in advance. All of the milestones you asked to be acknowledged were completely appropriate and on a totally reasonable timeline. Seeing you exclusively for four months but shirking "labels"?
This guy should have owned his foot-dragging from the get-go and been completely up front with you about what he was and was not willing to do so you could cut and run earlier. You dodged a bullet here. Do not blame yourself. You were completely reasonable and fine.
posted by delight at 5:00 PM on May 25, 2017 [5 favorites]
This guy should have owned his foot-dragging from the get-go and been completely up front with you about what he was and was not willing to do so you could cut and run earlier. You dodged a bullet here. Do not blame yourself. You were completely reasonable and fine.
posted by delight at 5:00 PM on May 25, 2017 [5 favorites]
No it's ok, you're fine. If you would have been fine dating for another couple of months or longer, until it ended, then it would have ended then, but it wouldn't have progressed. We've all been there - you started out having a good time and then ended up having a less good time as time went by due to lack of interest. Well, not interest. You're interesting! You're worthy of effort and love! But lack of romantic effort. It wasn't your fault. I think a lot of times we judge shorter relationships that fail to launch by the hazy memory of more serious relationships and think, hey - of course people need some time to figure out their feelings at the beginning, and maybe if I just wasn't pushy, and it would have gone better - or some other such thing. But the truth is the other person has to come through or you have some "thing" that isn't a relationship. To create a painful analogue, just to explain: if you are the type who usually wants intimacy or isn't squeamish about it, then here: think about when you've been fond of someone but not head over heels, if you can remember such a thing. You're entitled to think that's a terrible choice for this person to feel about you - we are not judging it, just acknowledging that that's his behavior. Well, a lot of times people in that position don't want to say, "hey let's relinquish the great sex I'm having and the enjoyment of spending time together." Some people might be willing to give up those things to set the other person free. Often people will simply avoid thinking about it for as long as possible. Then when push comes to shove, they won't be ready to get romantic. They'll say, "listen if you could stop pressuring me emotionally about every little thing we would be fine." Inside they'll be thinking, ooh, I don't want to commit to anyone right now. This doesn't feel right. Should I pull the plug? But that doesn't seem like what I want. Maybe if I make it seem like there's a big fight going on in general, then she'll just make the decision for me. So it's a sort of manipulative behavior, though not on purpose. That's why you feel like it was your fault.
It sucks but the only thing you can do is move on. There is ample evidence that this wasn't a misunderstanding or something that could have been worked out - you wanted a relationship and he didn't. Sorry! But listen now you can find someone to maybe have a baby with! There there. And listen, don't blame yourself for having an anxious attachment style. That's why you're anxious right now. But you did everything you could to keep things going. I think you did the right thing about being clear about what you wanted. If you feel too anxious about keeping someone, sometimes you end up staying with the wrong person.
posted by benadryl at 5:03 PM on May 25, 2017 [3 favorites]
It sucks but the only thing you can do is move on. There is ample evidence that this wasn't a misunderstanding or something that could have been worked out - you wanted a relationship and he didn't. Sorry! But listen now you can find someone to maybe have a baby with! There there. And listen, don't blame yourself for having an anxious attachment style. That's why you're anxious right now. But you did everything you could to keep things going. I think you did the right thing about being clear about what you wanted. If you feel too anxious about keeping someone, sometimes you end up staying with the wrong person.
posted by benadryl at 5:03 PM on May 25, 2017 [3 favorites]
You handled this situation perfectly! Seriously: gold star. You recognized what you wanted, asked for it, gave things a chance, and when it became clear that what you wanted was not available from him (he said so!), you got out.
Every day you are out of this relationship is one day closer to being in the kind of relationship you do want to be in. Think of it this way -- if a fairy godmother appeared right now and said "I promise, a year from now you'll be in a relationship with some other guy that will be enough for you. There'll be mutual attraction, fun, and closeness. Sometimes he'll be inconsiderate or piss you off, but you'll be fundamentally aligned and he won't try to control you or the relationship by distancing himself from you."
You'd immediately stop worrying about this dude, right? Because all that second-guessing you're doing now is just your anxious attachment style telling you that the only options you'll ever have in the world are "not enough" and "nothing."
But that's only true if you keep settling for not enough, telling yourself you want too much, or give up on dating entirely.
I really think you're going to be fine, relationship-wise. Keep going to therapy, keep reading, keep dating. You'll probably continue to be attracted to dudes and situations who are a bad match for you for awhile (just out of a longterm relationship is a pretty solid yellow flag). You'll get better at navigating that as time goes on. But as long as you 1. dont drop out of the game entirely and 2. dont spend months and years in situations that arent right for you, you'll absolutely, eventually, find one that is.
posted by mrmurbles at 5:04 PM on May 25, 2017 [22 favorites]
Every day you are out of this relationship is one day closer to being in the kind of relationship you do want to be in. Think of it this way -- if a fairy godmother appeared right now and said "I promise, a year from now you'll be in a relationship with some other guy that will be enough for you. There'll be mutual attraction, fun, and closeness. Sometimes he'll be inconsiderate or piss you off, but you'll be fundamentally aligned and he won't try to control you or the relationship by distancing himself from you."
You'd immediately stop worrying about this dude, right? Because all that second-guessing you're doing now is just your anxious attachment style telling you that the only options you'll ever have in the world are "not enough" and "nothing."
But that's only true if you keep settling for not enough, telling yourself you want too much, or give up on dating entirely.
I really think you're going to be fine, relationship-wise. Keep going to therapy, keep reading, keep dating. You'll probably continue to be attracted to dudes and situations who are a bad match for you for awhile (just out of a longterm relationship is a pretty solid yellow flag). You'll get better at navigating that as time goes on. But as long as you 1. dont drop out of the game entirely and 2. dont spend months and years in situations that arent right for you, you'll absolutely, eventually, find one that is.
posted by mrmurbles at 5:04 PM on May 25, 2017 [22 favorites]
Oops, to clarify, this was the manipulation:
he said he’d never had any doubt we would go until i started pressing him like this, and now he was feeling anxious because of all the ‘conflict’ we’d been having lately.
Because when this happened, you had already asked if he had doubts, and he already expressed his doubts in clear terms:
he’d never had an explicit defining the relationship talk with a previous partner, it was always just sort of 'known'. i asked if we should both delete our tinder accounts, and he started kissing me and didn't want to answer that.
This doesn't mean he didn't mean it when:
he was really upset by this and was crying, begging me not to block his number, etc.
If you included these details because they set off things in your gut, then yes, I will confirm, this sounds like a very classic case of someone who really enjoyed sleeping with you and maybe was attached to you (wow! lots of crying) but did not want a relationship.
So speaking from experience, in sum, you were trying to make it happen but he was not trying to make it happen. This alone should hopefully awaken enough displeasure and compassion to get you through the tough final stretch of this breakup!
posted by benadryl at 5:23 PM on May 25, 2017 [5 favorites]
he said he’d never had any doubt we would go until i started pressing him like this, and now he was feeling anxious because of all the ‘conflict’ we’d been having lately.
Because when this happened, you had already asked if he had doubts, and he already expressed his doubts in clear terms:
he’d never had an explicit defining the relationship talk with a previous partner, it was always just sort of 'known'. i asked if we should both delete our tinder accounts, and he started kissing me and didn't want to answer that.
This doesn't mean he didn't mean it when:
he was really upset by this and was crying, begging me not to block his number, etc.
If you included these details because they set off things in your gut, then yes, I will confirm, this sounds like a very classic case of someone who really enjoyed sleeping with you and maybe was attached to you (wow! lots of crying) but did not want a relationship.
So speaking from experience, in sum, you were trying to make it happen but he was not trying to make it happen. This alone should hopefully awaken enough displeasure and compassion to get you through the tough final stretch of this breakup!
posted by benadryl at 5:23 PM on May 25, 2017 [5 favorites]
Hey sweetheart. You did fine. You two didn't want or need the same things out of a relationship. I also say that while I did read your whole post, I think the crux of this issue is that he was only a couple months put of a five year relationship, and that casts a HUGE shadow on what went on between the two of you. It seems like you tend toward self-analysis-- so much analysis of what you did or didn't do or could have done-- but at a few months out of that kind of long term, serious relationship, it's going to be impossible to say how much of his behavior was him reacting to you, and how much was him replaying and processing his breakup. You were ready to give this relationship your all, and I think you will find someone who will match you. But this guy just was not ready, and that wasnt your fault.
posted by moonlight on vermont at 5:40 PM on May 25, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by moonlight on vermont at 5:40 PM on May 25, 2017 [4 favorites]
You did the right thing. I've been in this situation before and if you stay it just gets worse.
As someone who also tortures myself thinking about how i ruined everything, while also wanting a serious relationship where we genuinely have each other's back, this piece by Heather Havrilesky was a brilliant thing to read:
https://www.thecut.com/2015/10/ask-polly-should-i-tell-him-what-i-want.html
See how easy you are to love? See how relaxing you make it? It’s all so easy, so easy that maybe he’ll never have to TRY HARD or MAKE A PLAN AHEAD OF TIME or PURCHASE A THOUGHTFUL GIFT or KISS YOU UNEXPECTEDLY or GET A LITTLE GIDDY AROUND YOU?
But hey, why risk it, right?
...Never expect people to read your mind, and never blame them when they fail to read your mind. Grown adults don’t read minds. They ask for what they want instead. Even if the whole world is passive-aggressive and believes in mind-reading, fuck it. That’s not how the world should work. Brave people need to model direct communication. There’s no reason it should feel threatening. There’s no reason blame should be involved. It should be okay to say, “I want this, can you give it to me?” And sometimes, people will say no. THAT’S okay, TOO. It’s a conversation.
When you ask for what you want without sounding worried and conflicted about it, it’s not a turn-off. It might even sound romantic and inspired and exciting to him. And once you state your desires, there’s no way to file you under “EASY, FOR NOW, DECIDE LATER.” He has to actively express himself and make some plans. He’ll need to put in some effort....Or, he fucks right off, freeing up your time for a man who will be exquisitely turned on by you, rough edges, weird desires, dark places and all.
You did good. His heart was never in it and that's not because you're not good enough, it's because he's got hang ups and likely doesn't even know what he wants.
posted by hotcoroner at 6:02 PM on May 25, 2017 [13 favorites]
As someone who also tortures myself thinking about how i ruined everything, while also wanting a serious relationship where we genuinely have each other's back, this piece by Heather Havrilesky was a brilliant thing to read:
https://www.thecut.com/2015/10/ask-polly-should-i-tell-him-what-i-want.html
See how easy you are to love? See how relaxing you make it? It’s all so easy, so easy that maybe he’ll never have to TRY HARD or MAKE A PLAN AHEAD OF TIME or PURCHASE A THOUGHTFUL GIFT or KISS YOU UNEXPECTEDLY or GET A LITTLE GIDDY AROUND YOU?
But hey, why risk it, right?
...Never expect people to read your mind, and never blame them when they fail to read your mind. Grown adults don’t read minds. They ask for what they want instead. Even if the whole world is passive-aggressive and believes in mind-reading, fuck it. That’s not how the world should work. Brave people need to model direct communication. There’s no reason it should feel threatening. There’s no reason blame should be involved. It should be okay to say, “I want this, can you give it to me?” And sometimes, people will say no. THAT’S okay, TOO. It’s a conversation.
When you ask for what you want without sounding worried and conflicted about it, it’s not a turn-off. It might even sound romantic and inspired and exciting to him. And once you state your desires, there’s no way to file you under “EASY, FOR NOW, DECIDE LATER.” He has to actively express himself and make some plans. He’ll need to put in some effort....Or, he fucks right off, freeing up your time for a man who will be exquisitely turned on by you, rough edges, weird desires, dark places and all.
You did good. His heart was never in it and that's not because you're not good enough, it's because he's got hang ups and likely doesn't even know what he wants.
posted by hotcoroner at 6:02 PM on May 25, 2017 [13 favorites]
I try not to give super short answers, but FUCK THIS GUY. I hate him and I hate the fact he has you thinking you are the one who drove him away instead of his being a selfish ass who wanted all the fun of a relationship without any of the responsibilities.
Fuck this guy. Love yourself.
posted by corb at 6:27 PM on May 25, 2017 [43 favorites]
Fuck this guy. Love yourself.
posted by corb at 6:27 PM on May 25, 2017 [43 favorites]
I'm completely with Corb on this one. You didn't do anything wrong. He had big red flags stuck up his nose. It may not feel like it now, but you dodged a bullet. Take care of yourself, and hold out for someone who wants what you want.
posted by frumiousb at 6:49 PM on May 25, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by frumiousb at 6:49 PM on May 25, 2017 [5 favorites]
You made such a good choice to end this! I am impressed. He ruined things, not you, by being unreliable.
posted by ferret branca at 6:50 PM on May 25, 2017 [9 favorites]
posted by ferret branca at 6:50 PM on May 25, 2017 [9 favorites]
You know, it's always dudes who are all "let's not put a label on it" and "well, I would like to have unprotected sex and kiss you instead of having a relationship talk and also I would like to be late to things and string you along about going places and kind of be not that honest about whether I'm seeing other people, and if you're not cool with that then maybe you're not the one for me", and it's always women who are all "if only I had been more chill, why must I have so many needs all the time", etc etc.
I cannot help but feel that this is a really gendered situation that you find yourself in, and it has to do with the way that many men are socialized to think that the ideal relationship is one where they just do whatever they want and the other person is naturally, intuitively cool with it, and any "needs" of the other person's just magically line up with what the man wants to provide. It's like guys who expect that women look flawless but never wear obvious make-up - they want a universe that just coincidentally gives them everything they want and nothing that they don't, so they don't have to make an effort or ever have any conflict.
Meanwhile, women do this whole song and dance about "we've been having unprotected sex for months, I sure hope he doesn't get upset if I ask whether we're in a relationship."
And this is definitely an artifact of internet/hook-up culture; when I was in my twenties, "we have been fucking for months, but it is still a mystery whether we're actually dating or not and I have to make a big production out of asking" was not how things worked. This kind of "dating" culture, where women do a months-long sexual and personality audition before they're supposed to ask if a relationship is a possibility - that's hugely sexist and awful. I would strongly suggest that in the future you date men who are seeking relationships and who will view regular dates/sex as constituting a relationship rather than a protracted audition.
This guy didn't technically do anything wrong; he's just the kind of guy that women who want relationships should never, ever date. Any guy who is all "I don't want anything serious right now, so just act like a serious girlfriend but don't catch feelings" is bad news.
It's not you, it's him. Picture staying with him and dancing around his needs not just now but forever. Picture having to plan conversations about your perfectly ordinary needs and desires like you're having a highly strategic meeting at work so that you don't scare him off with your weird feminine needs for, like, arriving for events on time. You think he's perfect, but he's not perfect - the fake him who lives in your head is perfect.
Do not date men who "are not ready for a relationship right now". Either they are telling the truth and it can't work out or they are saying "I want you to do the work of a relationship while I do whatever and see other women".
posted by Frowner at 6:54 PM on May 25, 2017 [68 favorites]
I cannot help but feel that this is a really gendered situation that you find yourself in, and it has to do with the way that many men are socialized to think that the ideal relationship is one where they just do whatever they want and the other person is naturally, intuitively cool with it, and any "needs" of the other person's just magically line up with what the man wants to provide. It's like guys who expect that women look flawless but never wear obvious make-up - they want a universe that just coincidentally gives them everything they want and nothing that they don't, so they don't have to make an effort or ever have any conflict.
Meanwhile, women do this whole song and dance about "we've been having unprotected sex for months, I sure hope he doesn't get upset if I ask whether we're in a relationship."
And this is definitely an artifact of internet/hook-up culture; when I was in my twenties, "we have been fucking for months, but it is still a mystery whether we're actually dating or not and I have to make a big production out of asking" was not how things worked. This kind of "dating" culture, where women do a months-long sexual and personality audition before they're supposed to ask if a relationship is a possibility - that's hugely sexist and awful. I would strongly suggest that in the future you date men who are seeking relationships and who will view regular dates/sex as constituting a relationship rather than a protracted audition.
This guy didn't technically do anything wrong; he's just the kind of guy that women who want relationships should never, ever date. Any guy who is all "I don't want anything serious right now, so just act like a serious girlfriend but don't catch feelings" is bad news.
It's not you, it's him. Picture staying with him and dancing around his needs not just now but forever. Picture having to plan conversations about your perfectly ordinary needs and desires like you're having a highly strategic meeting at work so that you don't scare him off with your weird feminine needs for, like, arriving for events on time. You think he's perfect, but he's not perfect - the fake him who lives in your head is perfect.
Do not date men who "are not ready for a relationship right now". Either they are telling the truth and it can't work out or they are saying "I want you to do the work of a relationship while I do whatever and see other women".
posted by Frowner at 6:54 PM on May 25, 2017 [68 favorites]
i asked him if he was my boyfriend. he said ‘i think so’
It wasn't what you wanted it to be, you're better off now.
posted by Sebmojo at 7:01 PM on May 25, 2017
It wasn't what you wanted it to be, you're better off now.
posted by Sebmojo at 7:01 PM on May 25, 2017
part of why he hadn't wanted me to sleep over was because we'd been talking about abortion and i said offhandedly that if i were to get pregnant at this stage in my life, i probably wouldn't have an abortion (i have an IUD though and DO NOT want to get pregnant). so i guess he was freaked out
After. he started voluntarily having unprotected sex with you. AFTER he did that, he finally thought to have this conversation? He didn't ask you about pregnancy plans before he stopped using condoms? He stopped using condoms, at all, period? He's 35 and terrified of accidental kids and never thinks this is something he should have brought up before sleeping with you the first time? And he hasn't had a vasectomy? so, he wanted to be sure that if he impregnated a woman he refused to acknowledge his relationship to, she would do as he wished about it?
He freaked out because you let him know that you, being a sensible adult woman, wouldn't obey the hypothetical directives of a man as scared of the word "boyfriend" as he is of both condoms and babies?
boy, this is a lot of question marks for a comment, I think I ran out. What the fuck. What the fuck is wrong with him. Get mad. Get real mad.
posted by queenofbithynia at 7:20 PM on May 25, 2017 [26 favorites]
After. he started voluntarily having unprotected sex with you. AFTER he did that, he finally thought to have this conversation? He didn't ask you about pregnancy plans before he stopped using condoms? He stopped using condoms, at all, period? He's 35 and terrified of accidental kids and never thinks this is something he should have brought up before sleeping with you the first time? And he hasn't had a vasectomy? so, he wanted to be sure that if he impregnated a woman he refused to acknowledge his relationship to, she would do as he wished about it?
He freaked out because you let him know that you, being a sensible adult woman, wouldn't obey the hypothetical directives of a man as scared of the word "boyfriend" as he is of both condoms and babies?
boy, this is a lot of question marks for a comment, I think I ran out. What the fuck. What the fuck is wrong with him. Get mad. Get real mad.
posted by queenofbithynia at 7:20 PM on May 25, 2017 [26 favorites]
I got to your third paragraph, and I was like "oh, throw him back, honey."
posted by Marie Mon Dieu at 7:21 PM on May 25, 2017 [13 favorites]
posted by Marie Mon Dieu at 7:21 PM on May 25, 2017 [13 favorites]
Congratulations on dodging a bullet!
Agree he wanted all of the fun but none of the actual effort of a relationship. He never told the last person he dated they were officially bf/gf, yet they dated for 5 years and he's 35? Oh, honey - fuck that guy, he is a man-child. After 5 whole months you absolutely should expect real commitment and real words and effort regarding enthusiastic commitment to a relationship with you!
He was lying to you about the camping trip and the way he slithered out of it was some gas lighting bullshit.
ALSO
You could have broken up with him the second or third time he was late showing up. Someone taught me this years ago and she was so so right. Keep that in your back pocket moving forward! You did great!! Please stop doubting yourself!!
posted by jbenben at 7:37 PM on May 25, 2017 [6 favorites]
Agree he wanted all of the fun but none of the actual effort of a relationship. He never told the last person he dated they were officially bf/gf, yet they dated for 5 years and he's 35? Oh, honey - fuck that guy, he is a man-child. After 5 whole months you absolutely should expect real commitment and real words and effort regarding enthusiastic commitment to a relationship with you!
He was lying to you about the camping trip and the way he slithered out of it was some gas lighting bullshit.
ALSO
You could have broken up with him the second or third time he was late showing up. Someone taught me this years ago and she was so so right. Keep that in your back pocket moving forward! You did great!! Please stop doubting yourself!!
posted by jbenben at 7:37 PM on May 25, 2017 [6 favorites]
i know i have SERIOUS issues to work on.
I have to take you at your word because I hate like poison to tell a woman I know better than she does what she is like and what she ought to do. you know, like your terrible ex did. But the only "issue" in evidence from your question is a tendency to agonize over not being a doormat. "Why can't you give me everything I want, while I give you nothing you want, because I haven't decided if you're worth my time yet," asks the garbage ex-boyfriend, and then weeps. "No thanks goodbye," you answer, and at that moment you are PERFECT. Perfect. Don't change a thing. Your only issue is being told all your life that a woman's place is in the wrong, so that you cannot recognize where you are now. You're in the right. You're standing right in it.
posted by queenofbithynia at 7:39 PM on May 25, 2017 [51 favorites]
You didn't do anything wrong. This guy sucks. We have all dated someone like this before, and it is a nightmare. You aren't being clingy or insane to want to define the relationship after five months. Let me repeat it: you didn't do anything wrong and this guy sucks.
posted by cakelite at 7:40 PM on May 25, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by cakelite at 7:40 PM on May 25, 2017 [6 favorites]
Lady, you're fine. Seriously. I mean, I think working on your anxiety/intrusive thoughts is important, and I think being really gentle and generous with yourself is SUPER-important. But this guy wasn't a match. And that's totally okay.
This guy sounds kind of manipulative and/or immature. You want someone who is neither of those things, and that's totally fine. The person who will be super-stoked to be with you and won't be scared off when you have needs is out there.
You sound generous and thoughtful. Those are GREAT qualities in a partner. Just make sure to extend that generosity to yourself. I know that is much, much, MUCH easier said than done. But try to give yourself at least the amount of gentleness and understanding that you would give to your partner.
posted by superlibby at 7:43 PM on May 25, 2017 [3 favorites]
This guy sounds kind of manipulative and/or immature. You want someone who is neither of those things, and that's totally fine. The person who will be super-stoked to be with you and won't be scared off when you have needs is out there.
You sound generous and thoughtful. Those are GREAT qualities in a partner. Just make sure to extend that generosity to yourself. I know that is much, much, MUCH easier said than done. But try to give yourself at least the amount of gentleness and understanding that you would give to your partner.
posted by superlibby at 7:43 PM on May 25, 2017 [3 favorites]
Just want to second most of what Frowner said.
I think it is important to recognise that the heterosexual economy is still deeply patriarchal. It is damaging to pretend otherwise because it leads to precisely these kinds of situations where men act like the entitled fucks that they historically have been privileged to be, and women feel like they are the ones who somehow aren't doing this whole dating/sex/finding companionship business right. The culture of casual sex and hook ups is insidiously detrimental to the health of women, because our socialisation processes still haven't caught up with notional gender equality. For instance, being disposable is an anxiety women are trained to feel from a very young age, that men just aren't. Thus the desire to be in a committed relationship where they are cared for is something women want more than men. This is also partly because men get cared for even in ostensibly casual setups simply because women are raised to be caregivers and do emotional work by default. (Of course, I don't mean that women can't or don't enjoy NSA encounters, just that very often there is a lot of political obliviousness and emotional repression at work -- thus the rise of the Cool Girl -- and equitable terms of engagement are rare and hard won).
I don't know if this will be helpful for you but the idea that, relative to a man, I am going to be fundamentally powerless in sexual/romantic situation, helped me stop blaming myself and enabled to me to be kind to myself. What you want is someone who will be willing to share power with you and be gentlemanly enough to acknowledge his privilege enough to be considerate about your lack thereof.
Please don't blame yourself. You didn't do anything wrong; on the contrary, you asserted yourself and withdrew when you weren't being met halfway. You are culturally and socially being forced into this shitty emotional spiral. Don't give in to it.
posted by norwegianleather at 7:46 PM on May 25, 2017 [26 favorites]
I think it is important to recognise that the heterosexual economy is still deeply patriarchal. It is damaging to pretend otherwise because it leads to precisely these kinds of situations where men act like the entitled fucks that they historically have been privileged to be, and women feel like they are the ones who somehow aren't doing this whole dating/sex/finding companionship business right. The culture of casual sex and hook ups is insidiously detrimental to the health of women, because our socialisation processes still haven't caught up with notional gender equality. For instance, being disposable is an anxiety women are trained to feel from a very young age, that men just aren't. Thus the desire to be in a committed relationship where they are cared for is something women want more than men. This is also partly because men get cared for even in ostensibly casual setups simply because women are raised to be caregivers and do emotional work by default. (Of course, I don't mean that women can't or don't enjoy NSA encounters, just that very often there is a lot of political obliviousness and emotional repression at work -- thus the rise of the Cool Girl -- and equitable terms of engagement are rare and hard won).
I don't know if this will be helpful for you but the idea that, relative to a man, I am going to be fundamentally powerless in sexual/romantic situation, helped me stop blaming myself and enabled to me to be kind to myself. What you want is someone who will be willing to share power with you and be gentlemanly enough to acknowledge his privilege enough to be considerate about your lack thereof.
Please don't blame yourself. You didn't do anything wrong; on the contrary, you asserted yourself and withdrew when you weren't being met halfway. You are culturally and socially being forced into this shitty emotional spiral. Don't give in to it.
posted by norwegianleather at 7:46 PM on May 25, 2017 [26 favorites]
Seems to me like a "him" problem rather than a "you" problem.
posted by turbid dahlia at 7:57 PM on May 25, 2017
posted by turbid dahlia at 7:57 PM on May 25, 2017
This was inevitable, in my opinion. The only thing you guys did wrong was get along well enough to fall into a BF/GF pattern before he was ready to have another committed relationship, not see the writing on the wall, and both get so attached that you tried to make it work despite having very different desires for a relationship (/ lack thereof). Next time maybe believe what someone says earlier, and be honest if it doesn't work for you.
Then again, that's basically what you did! You tried to clarify, and he was evasive and non-committal but not saying no either, so I think your questions probably kept you from wasting a lot of time. After reading the comments, I really agree with this: This guy should have owned his foot-dragging from the get-go and been completely up front with you about what he was and was not willing to do so you could cut and run earlier.
And I've been there with someone who was avoidant (or who was avoiding me, at least), and I put myself through the exact same head trip: "why am i so needy? shouldn't I just be cool about not knowing what's going on and just hanging around waiting?" If you've made it to age 32 with this being the first time you've had this particular kind of head funk, maybe just shake it off rather than diagnosing yourself as deeply needy or whatever. I think your instincts were right and that your "needy" feelings were you correctly sensing that his commitment wasn't there.
Sorry the timing wasn't right on this. It sounds like maybe this might've had potential if he were in a better place. Then again, it's hard to say -- the months right after leaving a long-term relationship are deeply weird, so you guys might have not even connected if he were in his regular state of mind. But near misses like this are painful; I'm so sorry.
posted by salvia at 9:00 PM on May 25, 2017 [2 favorites]
Then again, that's basically what you did! You tried to clarify, and he was evasive and non-committal but not saying no either, so I think your questions probably kept you from wasting a lot of time. After reading the comments, I really agree with this: This guy should have owned his foot-dragging from the get-go and been completely up front with you about what he was and was not willing to do so you could cut and run earlier.
And I've been there with someone who was avoidant (or who was avoiding me, at least), and I put myself through the exact same head trip: "why am i so needy? shouldn't I just be cool about not knowing what's going on and just hanging around waiting?" If you've made it to age 32 with this being the first time you've had this particular kind of head funk, maybe just shake it off rather than diagnosing yourself as deeply needy or whatever. I think your instincts were right and that your "needy" feelings were you correctly sensing that his commitment wasn't there.
Sorry the timing wasn't right on this. It sounds like maybe this might've had potential if he were in a better place. Then again, it's hard to say -- the months right after leaving a long-term relationship are deeply weird, so you guys might have not even connected if he were in his regular state of mind. But near misses like this are painful; I'm so sorry.
posted by salvia at 9:00 PM on May 25, 2017 [2 favorites]
Taking him at his word, he didn't want to come right out and say he was too broke for this camping trip, so avoided talking to you about it and led you to believe it could happen (maybe there's some ego stuff there). He's late all the time. He slid into his last relationship without much of a to-do. He did say at first that he wasn't ready for a relationship coming off this breakup, but went along with you when you wanted more clarity and commitment. (Not wanting kids, well that's just what it is.)
After the tensions that came up, he pulled back and did what he always wanted to do, which was pursue something lighthearted and noncommittal (maybe in a way that's new for him, if he's monogamous etc).
Giving him the benefit of the doubt, he's a terrible communicator, passive, and not very organized or deliberate about his choices. (Beyond just not being up for anything serious right now, which I guess he did try to say but was happy enough to set aside.)
I think this is maybe not the sort of person you need. (Just going on opposites, maybe look for someone more self-aware, up front, active, and communicative, who is more certain about what he wants. Maybe not someone who's in a transitional period.)
So it's not going to work out, which is ok, and you figured it out by being honest with your needs, which is great.
posted by cotton dress sock at 9:22 PM on May 25, 2017 [1 favorite]
After the tensions that came up, he pulled back and did what he always wanted to do, which was pursue something lighthearted and noncommittal (maybe in a way that's new for him, if he's monogamous etc).
Giving him the benefit of the doubt, he's a terrible communicator, passive, and not very organized or deliberate about his choices. (Beyond just not being up for anything serious right now, which I guess he did try to say but was happy enough to set aside.)
I think this is maybe not the sort of person you need. (Just going on opposites, maybe look for someone more self-aware, up front, active, and communicative, who is more certain about what he wants. Maybe not someone who's in a transitional period.)
So it's not going to work out, which is ok, and you figured it out by being honest with your needs, which is great.
posted by cotton dress sock at 9:22 PM on May 25, 2017 [1 favorite]
(I mean it sucks that you were disappointed, but sounds like he's just not for you. Good thing you worked it out now, by being clear.)
posted by cotton dress sock at 9:24 PM on May 25, 2017
posted by cotton dress sock at 9:24 PM on May 25, 2017
I am echoing several other people here but in case it helps to hear a chorus: by the time you had that first conversation about whether he would be your boyfriend, I was disappointed with him (who dates someone for 4 months at the age of 35 without being their 'boyfriend'?! COME ON), and then a few paragraphs more and I was disgusted with his pathetic behavior when he started with the "I can't believe you're making me feel bad for treating you poorly. You're such a nag, I'm going to be late and screw up your plans even more now every time you complain about it!"
Really nice. What a catch he is, that he feels he doesn't have to abide by societal conventions for manners and timeliness. Too bad you let him down by not wanting to be a booty call. Argh! 35 is way too old to be acting the way he acted. I'm sorry you had to deal with this childishness and I hope you find a real man soon - you will know when you meet one because basically everything they do will be the opposite of what this guy did.
posted by treehorn+bunny at 12:12 AM on May 26, 2017 [4 favorites]
Really nice. What a catch he is, that he feels he doesn't have to abide by societal conventions for manners and timeliness. Too bad you let him down by not wanting to be a booty call. Argh! 35 is way too old to be acting the way he acted. I'm sorry you had to deal with this childishness and I hope you find a real man soon - you will know when you meet one because basically everything they do will be the opposite of what this guy did.
posted by treehorn+bunny at 12:12 AM on May 26, 2017 [4 favorites]
His behavior was so terrible I couldn't even read to the end. If you'd stayed with this guy you'd have felt like a used dishrag by the end of the relationship. You're lucky you got out when you did.
posted by scheana_marie at 8:53 AM on May 26, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by scheana_marie at 8:53 AM on May 26, 2017 [2 favorites]
Sometimes people who don't know what they want out of relationships will bump along trying to figure it out by acting it out. That's IMO not a responsible, honorable way to behave with someone else's time and heart. It is absolutely, full stop, no question NOT your problem to fix. You did not ruin anything. He's got issues that he needs to work on. You should not feel like you need to take any responsibility for that. You did everything right, specifically asking for what you wanted and then getting the f*** out and going no contact when it was clear that he could not reciprocate. Good job on recognizing that and "throwing the fish back".
posted by jazzbaby at 9:23 AM on May 26, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by jazzbaby at 9:23 AM on May 26, 2017 [1 favorite]
I could totally identify with parts of this, OP. Being anxious over a guy who was never going to be in a relationship with me, no matter how much time and effort and sex I put into it. Years later, I see those experiences much differently. Now I know that the right guy for me was the one who was basically like "Exclusive?! With you?! Fuck yeah!" Eleven years later and we're still great together.
Get yourself some of that and settle for no less.
posted by futureisunwritten at 1:19 PM on May 26, 2017 [4 favorites]
Get yourself some of that and settle for no less.
posted by futureisunwritten at 1:19 PM on May 26, 2017 [4 favorites]
You seem to be really harsh on yourself. A lot of us have been in the situation of being the one more invested in a relationship, more needy, feeling powerless and embarrassed about needing too much. It sucks.
It's very liberating to realize that we cannot make anybody love us, want us, commit to us. If the other person doesn't want the same things, we can either say what we want and deal with the outcome, or hide our own feelings and needs, and keep hoping if we are just cool and patient and not needy, we can coast along and be sort-of-happy and sort-of-satisfied. But the longer it goes on, the worse it feels. Because hanging out and being affectionate and having great conversations doesn't mean squat if they are not truly on your team - if you cannot count on them being there tomorrow, if you always feel like you are imposing on them, if you always worry whether or not they are going to call.
Why feel guilty about wanting a real relationship? This relationship or whatever it was, was making you miserable. The need for affection, stability and commitment is a normal human need. You can grieve the good parts and move on. Being alone is much better than this.
posted by M. at 2:19 AM on May 27, 2017 [6 favorites]
It's very liberating to realize that we cannot make anybody love us, want us, commit to us. If the other person doesn't want the same things, we can either say what we want and deal with the outcome, or hide our own feelings and needs, and keep hoping if we are just cool and patient and not needy, we can coast along and be sort-of-happy and sort-of-satisfied. But the longer it goes on, the worse it feels. Because hanging out and being affectionate and having great conversations doesn't mean squat if they are not truly on your team - if you cannot count on them being there tomorrow, if you always feel like you are imposing on them, if you always worry whether or not they are going to call.
Why feel guilty about wanting a real relationship? This relationship or whatever it was, was making you miserable. The need for affection, stability and commitment is a normal human need. You can grieve the good parts and move on. Being alone is much better than this.
posted by M. at 2:19 AM on May 27, 2017 [6 favorites]
So this guy is a soppy wet washcloth douche canoe (I don't know exactly what that is either, but it feels right), but I am a little concerned that you don't seem to be questioning why you decided to pursue and push for a relationship with someone who said, quite clearly, that they did not want one?
Like this guy is...not awesome, for all of the reasons listed above. But also, lady, why? I've been you in this situation and it took me a long time to realize how fucked up it was to essentially just ignore what someone stated about what they wanted or were ready for and then blitzkrieg them with fun and good stuff into relationship territory.
And again, I'm not excusing this guy's behavior at all; he remains a douche canoe. But you didn't see him as a person either. You didn't listen to or accept his limits from the get go. So yes, this was inevitable, because you wanted something this person didn't want -- so why did you pursue this? Like why didn't you end it when he said "I don't want a relationship, I just got out of a five year thing"? How would you feel if someone ignored your stated limits and pushed for something you weren't ready for? I think we all know the answer to that. It sucks. It can feel pretty frightening.
I have to disagree with the posters who are absolving you of all responsibility. Obviously a lot of this stuff is heavily shaded by patriarchal norms and sexism and the stuff this guy can get away with, but this guy didn't make you push him for something he stated, quite clearly, that he didn't want.
Honestly it seems to me like you wanted a relationship, period, and this guy was there. That's a problem in and of itself. I recognize a lot of the attachment stuff you talk about, and yeah -- having this much trauma and stress surrounding intepersonal relationships makes it impossible to be truly vulnerable, or to truly connect with another person. It becomes about the pattern rather than the person.
So I think you're framing is off. You didn't push away or sabotage something that otherwise would have worked out. You picked someone you knew was unavailable because it would end exactly this way. (Which does not absolve him for his douchebaggery; he's still responsible for that, it's just he was also playing an entirely predictable part with particularly douche-y style.) That's the thing you have to work on.
posted by schadenfrau at 7:21 AM on May 27, 2017 [4 favorites]
Like this guy is...not awesome, for all of the reasons listed above. But also, lady, why? I've been you in this situation and it took me a long time to realize how fucked up it was to essentially just ignore what someone stated about what they wanted or were ready for and then blitzkrieg them with fun and good stuff into relationship territory.
And again, I'm not excusing this guy's behavior at all; he remains a douche canoe. But you didn't see him as a person either. You didn't listen to or accept his limits from the get go. So yes, this was inevitable, because you wanted something this person didn't want -- so why did you pursue this? Like why didn't you end it when he said "I don't want a relationship, I just got out of a five year thing"? How would you feel if someone ignored your stated limits and pushed for something you weren't ready for? I think we all know the answer to that. It sucks. It can feel pretty frightening.
I have to disagree with the posters who are absolving you of all responsibility. Obviously a lot of this stuff is heavily shaded by patriarchal norms and sexism and the stuff this guy can get away with, but this guy didn't make you push him for something he stated, quite clearly, that he didn't want.
Honestly it seems to me like you wanted a relationship, period, and this guy was there. That's a problem in and of itself. I recognize a lot of the attachment stuff you talk about, and yeah -- having this much trauma and stress surrounding intepersonal relationships makes it impossible to be truly vulnerable, or to truly connect with another person. It becomes about the pattern rather than the person.
So I think you're framing is off. You didn't push away or sabotage something that otherwise would have worked out. You picked someone you knew was unavailable because it would end exactly this way. (Which does not absolve him for his douchebaggery; he's still responsible for that, it's just he was also playing an entirely predictable part with particularly douche-y style.) That's the thing you have to work on.
posted by schadenfrau at 7:21 AM on May 27, 2017 [4 favorites]
i feel terrible that the whole thing fell apart due to me being anxious and always wanting more. i never felt secure in the relationship, though looking back i feel like that was my problem, not his. i wish i hadn't broken up with him when i did-- like maybe i could have turned it around by being less needy/giving him space?
It's funny that you say this after like 35 comments saying the opposite. :) Maybe read again from the top?
posted by salvia at 7:50 PM on May 27, 2017 [4 favorites]
It's funny that you say this after like 35 comments saying the opposite. :) Maybe read again from the top?
posted by salvia at 7:50 PM on May 27, 2017 [4 favorites]
Hey girl, I'm in a very similar boat as you. Got broken up with three months ago, dated him for six months, we were exclusive but he avoided being called my boyfriend since month 3. When I asked again in month 6, that was when he decided to break up with me. He was the first person I dated after leaving an abusive relationship with an ex-boyfriend 6 years ago. And I fell, so, fucking hard.
After the breakup, I spent basically two months mourning and grieving so incredibly hard. I called and talked to nearly a dozen of my closest friends about it (and I am so grateful to have such a strong support network.) I grieved with my therapist about it for a while. I meditated, read countless articles, did a lot of soul searching, and worked through a severe amount of attachment trauma related to my parents and previous relationships. Also realized how broken my self-esteem was and how I was ultimately NOT happy in the relationship because I was NOT speaking my mind.
I opened this AskMeFi question, because I repeatedly have read relationship Asks here to help me with my healing. With each Ask I have opened, I keep seeing the same patterns over and over and over again. We are thoughtful, deeply loving and caring women who want to feel really secure, who want to be in a relationship because hopefully it can fulfill needs of being loved and cared for in a way that we need. But for some reason or another, our meter is a little faulty. Maybe we were really overachieving Type A perfectionists, who were told that if we just worked hard enough, we could overcome anything. Maybe we are relentlessly rewarded for giving so much. Maybe the ways his eyes looked at you made you feel like you were the only one in the world, and you would do anything in a Pavlovian state to get him to look at you again, that way, FOREVER. You want that damn commitment. You want to feel secure in that way.
But then, the signs keep showing. He ehhs a little and hesitates in areas that you would have never thought to hesitate in. You start questioning yourself, and wondering if you adjusted or shifted yourself in this way, maybe make him a little less irritated here, a little more comfortable here. He's a thermostat that you keep adjusting, and you twist yourself around to make the knob turn. You want to ask, but you can't, because deep down, you know his answer edges closer to no. His noncommittal passivity keeps showing, but you are SO good at giving him space. Maybe he just needs more time to make up his mind. Maybe if you said this instead. Maybe if you smiled in this way. Maybe if you said this affirmation instead of that. Maybe you made him irritated...it keeps becoming an endless spiral of maybes, what ifs, if I did this, should I have done that...
I was pissed as hell when he broke up with me. I was fucking angry. Why? Because that was so much energy I put in to make this relationship work, that I could have used on myself to evaluate, "Am I happy? Am I getting what I want? How can we solve this problem of MY discomfort?" All of these are questions that never occurred to me until after the relationship ended, because I was so focused on doing things so that he could love me more and to please him. I even went as far as going, "Oh my god, what if I was just more vulnerable with him? What if I just told him what I really thought?" Like what the HELL. I already WAS so vulnerable. What MORE vulnerability could I have given? There was actually something that made me uncomfortable that prevented me from stating and sharing it more, and it was me being reluctant to state my discomfort with how the relationship was.
This guy is a complete asshole and putting all responsibility on this relationship onto you. He's manipulating you to believe that his emotions and reactions are YOUR responsibility. No. You asked for what you needed, and he couldn't fucking reciprocate. The guy I dated was more well-mannered and but was shitty in different ways, but he still was similarly avoidant and non-communicative, and to a degree, he still blamed me a bit for his behavior and discomfort in stating things about the relationship, because "I was uncomfortable."
It's all bullshit. The guy I dated was ALWAYS uncomfortable, he just didn't state it. He couldn't tell me the truth. He really wanted to make it work, but he just simply did not like me enough to want to make it work that way. We had regular dates. We were close. We were doing bf/gf activities, "without the label."
There is nothing wrong with asking for commitment. You need someone who isn't ambivalent enough to call you their bf/gf. You want someone who wants to be with you enough that the seriousness of the label is a BONUS, it is an exciting way to help frame their enthusiasm about you to others. They can SHARE that with others, and it is clear.
My ego hurt so bad after he broke up with me. I deeply internalized that it was all my fault, and it has taken a few months for me to recover and understand that it really wasn't that case at all. He made his own decisions, independent of me. And the relationship culture we had, wasn't ultimately the best we could have had for each of us. We both deserve someone who matches where we are at, and I deserved someone who loved me as much as I loved him.
I can now say confidently, that I deserve someone who loves me as much as I love them. Speaking as someone who does not fall in love easily, I also have empathy and think that I may be that person who breaks someone else's heart in this manner. But I at least have the perspective of the responsibility of the amount of damage that I have to someone else's vulnerability, and to be responsive to people's needs, to know that if I cannot commit, I should not make promises that I cannot keep. You deserve a relationship where promises can be kept as a bare minimum. You should not have to scrounge for scraps. You deserve so much better. I deserve so much better. Let us break this cycle of thinking we need to change ourselves to be loved more by someone that we love more, than they love us. There is nothing we can do. As long as you are as vulnerable as you can, and state your needs as directly as you can, then you are doing exceptionally well. There is nothing else.
And I will have to continue repeating to myself, "there is nothing else" to myself even after I submit this post. It takes time to heal.
posted by yueliang at 8:51 PM on May 27, 2017 [4 favorites]
After the breakup, I spent basically two months mourning and grieving so incredibly hard. I called and talked to nearly a dozen of my closest friends about it (and I am so grateful to have such a strong support network.) I grieved with my therapist about it for a while. I meditated, read countless articles, did a lot of soul searching, and worked through a severe amount of attachment trauma related to my parents and previous relationships. Also realized how broken my self-esteem was and how I was ultimately NOT happy in the relationship because I was NOT speaking my mind.
I opened this AskMeFi question, because I repeatedly have read relationship Asks here to help me with my healing. With each Ask I have opened, I keep seeing the same patterns over and over and over again. We are thoughtful, deeply loving and caring women who want to feel really secure, who want to be in a relationship because hopefully it can fulfill needs of being loved and cared for in a way that we need. But for some reason or another, our meter is a little faulty. Maybe we were really overachieving Type A perfectionists, who were told that if we just worked hard enough, we could overcome anything. Maybe we are relentlessly rewarded for giving so much. Maybe the ways his eyes looked at you made you feel like you were the only one in the world, and you would do anything in a Pavlovian state to get him to look at you again, that way, FOREVER. You want that damn commitment. You want to feel secure in that way.
But then, the signs keep showing. He ehhs a little and hesitates in areas that you would have never thought to hesitate in. You start questioning yourself, and wondering if you adjusted or shifted yourself in this way, maybe make him a little less irritated here, a little more comfortable here. He's a thermostat that you keep adjusting, and you twist yourself around to make the knob turn. You want to ask, but you can't, because deep down, you know his answer edges closer to no. His noncommittal passivity keeps showing, but you are SO good at giving him space. Maybe he just needs more time to make up his mind. Maybe if you said this instead. Maybe if you smiled in this way. Maybe if you said this affirmation instead of that. Maybe you made him irritated...it keeps becoming an endless spiral of maybes, what ifs, if I did this, should I have done that...
I was pissed as hell when he broke up with me. I was fucking angry. Why? Because that was so much energy I put in to make this relationship work, that I could have used on myself to evaluate, "Am I happy? Am I getting what I want? How can we solve this problem of MY discomfort?" All of these are questions that never occurred to me until after the relationship ended, because I was so focused on doing things so that he could love me more and to please him. I even went as far as going, "Oh my god, what if I was just more vulnerable with him? What if I just told him what I really thought?" Like what the HELL. I already WAS so vulnerable. What MORE vulnerability could I have given? There was actually something that made me uncomfortable that prevented me from stating and sharing it more, and it was me being reluctant to state my discomfort with how the relationship was.
This guy is a complete asshole and putting all responsibility on this relationship onto you. He's manipulating you to believe that his emotions and reactions are YOUR responsibility. No. You asked for what you needed, and he couldn't fucking reciprocate. The guy I dated was more well-mannered and but was shitty in different ways, but he still was similarly avoidant and non-communicative, and to a degree, he still blamed me a bit for his behavior and discomfort in stating things about the relationship, because "I was uncomfortable."
It's all bullshit. The guy I dated was ALWAYS uncomfortable, he just didn't state it. He couldn't tell me the truth. He really wanted to make it work, but he just simply did not like me enough to want to make it work that way. We had regular dates. We were close. We were doing bf/gf activities, "without the label."
There is nothing wrong with asking for commitment. You need someone who isn't ambivalent enough to call you their bf/gf. You want someone who wants to be with you enough that the seriousness of the label is a BONUS, it is an exciting way to help frame their enthusiasm about you to others. They can SHARE that with others, and it is clear.
My ego hurt so bad after he broke up with me. I deeply internalized that it was all my fault, and it has taken a few months for me to recover and understand that it really wasn't that case at all. He made his own decisions, independent of me. And the relationship culture we had, wasn't ultimately the best we could have had for each of us. We both deserve someone who matches where we are at, and I deserved someone who loved me as much as I loved him.
I can now say confidently, that I deserve someone who loves me as much as I love them. Speaking as someone who does not fall in love easily, I also have empathy and think that I may be that person who breaks someone else's heart in this manner. But I at least have the perspective of the responsibility of the amount of damage that I have to someone else's vulnerability, and to be responsive to people's needs, to know that if I cannot commit, I should not make promises that I cannot keep. You deserve a relationship where promises can be kept as a bare minimum. You should not have to scrounge for scraps. You deserve so much better. I deserve so much better. Let us break this cycle of thinking we need to change ourselves to be loved more by someone that we love more, than they love us. There is nothing we can do. As long as you are as vulnerable as you can, and state your needs as directly as you can, then you are doing exceptionally well. There is nothing else.
And I will have to continue repeating to myself, "there is nothing else" to myself even after I submit this post. It takes time to heal.
posted by yueliang at 8:51 PM on May 27, 2017 [4 favorites]
thanks for all these replies! wow. I guess i was just confused because he made it seem like we would progress into a relationship-- and we WERE in a relationship, talked every day, had regular plans, etc. he was very affectionate, the sex was great, and we were very compatible in so many ways. so i feel terrible that the whole thing fell apart due to me being anxious and always wanting more. i never felt secure in the relationship, though looking back i feel like that was my problem, not his. i wish i hadn't broken up with him when i did-- like maybe i could have turned it around by being less needy/giving him space? but i guess all he would have had to do to keep me was commit to another month of exclusivity and try to figure out how we could meet each other's needs. he wasn't invested enough at that point, which i blame on myself, for making things unpleasant and stressful...
This exact comment is what I have been telling my therapist and friends for so long, with a few detail changes. I laughed so hard when I read this, because I thought I wrote it for a second.
Be kind to yourself, and let it go if you can. You are taking on too much responsibility, and you dodged a large bullet. You do not want to be in a relationship with someone who is ambivalent about you. Once you are crazy about someone and someone else is crazy about you equally, you will wonder why you ever wanted this. I am waiting for that day, but I believe it, because I know I am so worth it. You are too, dear.
posted by yueliang at 8:57 PM on May 27, 2017
This exact comment is what I have been telling my therapist and friends for so long, with a few detail changes. I laughed so hard when I read this, because I thought I wrote it for a second.
Be kind to yourself, and let it go if you can. You are taking on too much responsibility, and you dodged a large bullet. You do not want to be in a relationship with someone who is ambivalent about you. Once you are crazy about someone and someone else is crazy about you equally, you will wonder why you ever wanted this. I am waiting for that day, but I believe it, because I know I am so worth it. You are too, dear.
posted by yueliang at 8:57 PM on May 27, 2017
I swear to god, your update (love updates! But yours made me a bit sad because I can relate so much and feel for you for still pinning this dickhead's behaviour on yourself) is me too. What it took for me to stop being like this was to be in a relationship with a guy who actually had my back and actually knew he wanted a serious relationship with me. I was still a bit of a ball of anxiety at the beginning- worrying if he'd just stop talking to me over a minor thing, fretting if he didn't text back, like, straight away, but also not wanting him to just be sitting around waiting for my texts. But this is just part of limerence, and I could keep it in check and not come across overly weird at all because he. was. lovely. And trustworthy.
Turns out the trust issues in previous relationships (including with the ex who reminds me of the guy you're describing who did half-heartedly commit to me but then cheated on me) weren't actually my deep-seated issues I'd need years of therapy for, but a warning sign I was with a selfish person who didn't have my interests at heart. I was totally on the normal spectrum of anxiety and wanting more in my relationship with a kind, commitment-friendly guy! A few weeks in, he initiated the conversation and told me he'd like to be exclusive. After 2 months, he invited me to a Hanukkah dinner with his extended family, and came to Christmas with my family. After 3 months he told me he loved me. A woman who he'd had a previous short-term relationship with was still in his circle of friends and he'd hang out in a group setting with her sometimes- I wasn't jealous or worried in the slightest, he made it so clear he was the happiest he'd ever been in a relationship with me. (It didn't end up working out- we were very different and had different priorities, but it was entirely respectful the whole way through. I'll always look back fondly on him showing me what a healthy relationship felt like).
The other thing that helped was listening to Somebody That I Used to know about 1000 times on repeat. The female vocalist bit: "Now and then I think of all the times you screwed me over/ But had me believing it was always something that I'd done/ But I don't wanna live that way/ Reading into every word you say"
Trust me: I'm not saying you don't have your own issues- therapy seems like a great idea towards personal growth. But lots of people with "issues" still have good relationships, as long as they have a kind heart and their partner's back. I am definitely saying that you did not screw up this relationship. I would bet a lot of money that your guy was still on tinder for your entire 6 month relationships, or at least thinking about tinder and wishing he was on it the brief periods he half-heartedly tried to not be on it!! That is not on you!! His heart was not in it. He screwed you over and now you believe it was something that you'd done.
Break ups are so bad- but it will get better :)
posted by hotcoroner at 4:11 AM on May 28, 2017 [2 favorites]
Turns out the trust issues in previous relationships (including with the ex who reminds me of the guy you're describing who did half-heartedly commit to me but then cheated on me) weren't actually my deep-seated issues I'd need years of therapy for, but a warning sign I was with a selfish person who didn't have my interests at heart. I was totally on the normal spectrum of anxiety and wanting more in my relationship with a kind, commitment-friendly guy! A few weeks in, he initiated the conversation and told me he'd like to be exclusive. After 2 months, he invited me to a Hanukkah dinner with his extended family, and came to Christmas with my family. After 3 months he told me he loved me. A woman who he'd had a previous short-term relationship with was still in his circle of friends and he'd hang out in a group setting with her sometimes- I wasn't jealous or worried in the slightest, he made it so clear he was the happiest he'd ever been in a relationship with me. (It didn't end up working out- we were very different and had different priorities, but it was entirely respectful the whole way through. I'll always look back fondly on him showing me what a healthy relationship felt like).
The other thing that helped was listening to Somebody That I Used to know about 1000 times on repeat. The female vocalist bit: "Now and then I think of all the times you screwed me over/ But had me believing it was always something that I'd done/ But I don't wanna live that way/ Reading into every word you say"
Trust me: I'm not saying you don't have your own issues- therapy seems like a great idea towards personal growth. But lots of people with "issues" still have good relationships, as long as they have a kind heart and their partner's back. I am definitely saying that you did not screw up this relationship. I would bet a lot of money that your guy was still on tinder for your entire 6 month relationships, or at least thinking about tinder and wishing he was on it the brief periods he half-heartedly tried to not be on it!! That is not on you!! His heart was not in it. He screwed you over and now you believe it was something that you'd done.
Break ups are so bad- but it will get better :)
posted by hotcoroner at 4:11 AM on May 28, 2017 [2 favorites]
You "scared him away" in the sense that your reasonable expectations were met with his childish inability to state his own preferences or boundaries, and he wanted you to be 100% fine with his precise expectations but completely ignore or passively whine about all of yours. "Oh boo hoo hoo you'll get so MAD if our weekend plans change," fuck you. What a loser. He really is a colossal baby.
Men love to pull the "I'm so sensitive, I need to have a girlfriend I don't call a girlfriend so I can keep my banging options open without ever feeling lonely" bullshit, it's insanely rude, entitled, and dumb. You don't have to worry about scaring away immature, inconsiderate morons; that's a feature, not a bug.
posted by stoneandstar at 11:12 AM on May 28, 2017 [3 favorites]
Men love to pull the "I'm so sensitive, I need to have a girlfriend I don't call a girlfriend so I can keep my banging options open without ever feeling lonely" bullshit, it's insanely rude, entitled, and dumb. You don't have to worry about scaring away immature, inconsiderate morons; that's a feature, not a bug.
posted by stoneandstar at 11:12 AM on May 28, 2017 [3 favorites]
and we WERE in a relationship, talked every day, had regular plans, etc. he was very affectionate, the sex was great, and we were very compatible in so many ways
Yes, you were, but he also wanted to cheat without feeling bad about it. Seeing other people after you say that you will be exclusive is what we old fashioned folks call cheating.
but i guess all he would have had to do to keep me was commit to another month of exclusivity and try to figure out how we could meet each other's needs. he wasn't invested enough at that point
He wasn't invested because he's lazy and wanted all the perks with none of the responsibilities. Seriously, believe what you want, but you're just setting yourself up for years of hurt if you think diaper-wearing adult babies like this guy are somehow more mature and reasonable than you by virtue of the fact that they are blase about using people.
posted by stoneandstar at 11:15 AM on May 28, 2017 [3 favorites]
Yes, you were, but he also wanted to cheat without feeling bad about it. Seeing other people after you say that you will be exclusive is what we old fashioned folks call cheating.
but i guess all he would have had to do to keep me was commit to another month of exclusivity and try to figure out how we could meet each other's needs. he wasn't invested enough at that point
He wasn't invested because he's lazy and wanted all the perks with none of the responsibilities. Seriously, believe what you want, but you're just setting yourself up for years of hurt if you think diaper-wearing adult babies like this guy are somehow more mature and reasonable than you by virtue of the fact that they are blase about using people.
posted by stoneandstar at 11:15 AM on May 28, 2017 [3 favorites]
Don't change. Your expectations and requests were perfectly valid. He couldn't live up to them. The next guy might.
I am a little concerned that you knew that he was still on Tinder and checking out others, yet thought you were "together" enough to have unprotected sex. No amount of avoiding the question or kissing should distract you from the fact that if he's not absolutely clear that you're exclusive and all online dating accounts are deleted, then he isn't.
posted by tillsbury at 4:49 PM on May 28, 2017
I am a little concerned that you knew that he was still on Tinder and checking out others, yet thought you were "together" enough to have unprotected sex. No amount of avoiding the question or kissing should distract you from the fact that if he's not absolutely clear that you're exclusive and all online dating accounts are deleted, then he isn't.
posted by tillsbury at 4:49 PM on May 28, 2017
Also, man, I just came back from visiting my friends who have been together for five years. They choose eachother so hard, and with such intense, energetic glee, that it feels so right and so happy that they're together. And they worked through a lot of stuff. It gave me a lot of hope that I will find someone who I can be effortlessly into and not have to worry about this, and vice versa. Again, you still deserve so much better, someone who is responsible, self-caring, mature, and loves you and will carry his own business.
posted by yueliang at 5:35 PM on May 28, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by yueliang at 5:35 PM on May 28, 2017 [2 favorites]
It sounds like this relationship wasn't really working for you from the start. It also sounds like he was very passive-agressive about communicating with you. I don't think there is anything wrong with an open relationship or casual dating or casual sex - as long as both people are clear and on-board about how their relationship works. It sounds like he was particularly unclear, and avoided being honest with you when you tried to be honest. He sounds manipulative as hell.
Think about this, putting aside the big stuff. Clearly and definitively making vacation plans in advance isn't a big ask from someone who is just a friend, much less a bed-mate. It is small stuff, common courtesy in a relationship. Yet it was too much for him. And he used your attempt to get a clear "yes or no" answer as a way to manipulate your emotions. You weren't "not chill", you wanted to know if he was actually going to go on the trip you were planning or not. You were asking for common courtesy and got gaslighting.
I think the kindest way to describe his behavior is "immature". You didn't wreck things, you dodged a bullet.
posted by Cranialtorque at 2:02 PM on May 30, 2017
Think about this, putting aside the big stuff. Clearly and definitively making vacation plans in advance isn't a big ask from someone who is just a friend, much less a bed-mate. It is small stuff, common courtesy in a relationship. Yet it was too much for him. And he used your attempt to get a clear "yes or no" answer as a way to manipulate your emotions. You weren't "not chill", you wanted to know if he was actually going to go on the trip you were planning or not. You were asking for common courtesy and got gaslighting.
I think the kindest way to describe his behavior is "immature". You didn't wreck things, you dodged a bullet.
posted by Cranialtorque at 2:02 PM on May 30, 2017
This sentence of yours says everything. Maybe read it aloud to your therapist, or to yourself:
i wish...that i had focused on the good things rather than on how my needs weren’t being met.
No!! Don't be the person who ignores her own needs. I know it can be hard to ask for what you need. It's brave. You did the right thing.
(I once dated a similar guy, and felt similarly after I broke up with him. For a long time after, I referred to him exclusively as "Mr. Wad." Short for Dick Wad. It kind of helped...)
posted by the_blizz at 7:05 PM on May 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
i wish...that i had focused on the good things rather than on how my needs weren’t being met.
No!! Don't be the person who ignores her own needs. I know it can be hard to ask for what you need. It's brave. You did the right thing.
(I once dated a similar guy, and felt similarly after I broke up with him. For a long time after, I referred to him exclusively as "Mr. Wad." Short for Dick Wad. It kind of helped...)
posted by the_blizz at 7:05 PM on May 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
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"Chill" is a trap. Being "Chill" means you meet his needs, and he doesn't have to think about yours. A woman could go months as the perfect partner, being emotionally and sexually available for a guy, being fun and constantly present, meeting all his needs and more... and then as soon as she asks for something SHE needs, she no longer gets the compliment of being called "Chill" and the dude just pulls away because he's selfish and wants companionship and sex without any emotional labour on his part- and then to add insult to injury, he even gaslights her into believing it's a personality flaw of neediness on her part when it's actually emotional laziness on his part. Please don't fall into the trap of wanting to be Chill. Chill is a doormat. You truly deserve better than having to pretend you're Chill to keep a guy.
Good for you for asking for what you actually wanted- the right match will listen and do their best to deliver it to you.
posted by pseudostrabismus at 4:38 PM on May 25, 2017 [191 favorites]