The Voice For The Voiceless Prefers Me To Be Voiceless
May 5, 2017 6:16 PM Subscribe
Should I end this friendship? Or is it already over?
Dale and I met at a protest. Months later, I bumped into him on my way to a free community meal, and he offered to buy me dinner. He's since been a genuine source of support during a difficult time. Sometimes having a buddy that'll pay for a few beers while you argue about the arcane elements of your shared interests is the best mental health care going.
But the greatest thing he's done for me is affirm my talents, something I haven't been able to do on my own for decades. He's valued my observations and input on his work to the degree that we slowly became collaborators. He's said that he prefers us working together on projects than not.
Then he moved to another city. He's been keen to get me to visit. My poverty made me less keen.
But then he offered to pay me, as well as pay my way. I took that as a sign that he really needed my specific kind of help.
After arriving in his new home, I realized he didn't have an actual task for us to complete or begin. None of the tasks he was engaged in required my particular input. Worse, his penchant for social justice has turned him into a sermonizing ideologue utterly intolerant of the merest disagreement.
Or, at least, utterly intolerant of disagreement when it comes to precarious folk like me: he detailed the careful communicative strategies he uses in his activism(i.e. arguing with randos on Facebook), his willingness to keep the peace when the people disagreeing with him are strategically useful, career-wise, but then launched into me full-throttle over a critique I made regarding an issue we more or less agree on.
His attempt to bully me into silence was so insulting and patronizing, I threw myself out before he could threaten to do so a second time. I left behind those very resources he's been so generous with. He later sent me an email asking if I'd left them behind on purpose, and if I still wanted to borrow them.
I don't know if this is a half-assed apology, or a further attempt to exploit my precarity. I have little to no access to these resources in my not-likely-to-change-soon situation, but I will likely continue to make the most of other stuff he's been generous enough to share with me.
Stand on my feet, live on my knees, or some third choice I can't see right now?
Dale and I met at a protest. Months later, I bumped into him on my way to a free community meal, and he offered to buy me dinner. He's since been a genuine source of support during a difficult time. Sometimes having a buddy that'll pay for a few beers while you argue about the arcane elements of your shared interests is the best mental health care going.
But the greatest thing he's done for me is affirm my talents, something I haven't been able to do on my own for decades. He's valued my observations and input on his work to the degree that we slowly became collaborators. He's said that he prefers us working together on projects than not.
Then he moved to another city. He's been keen to get me to visit. My poverty made me less keen.
But then he offered to pay me, as well as pay my way. I took that as a sign that he really needed my specific kind of help.
After arriving in his new home, I realized he didn't have an actual task for us to complete or begin. None of the tasks he was engaged in required my particular input. Worse, his penchant for social justice has turned him into a sermonizing ideologue utterly intolerant of the merest disagreement.
Or, at least, utterly intolerant of disagreement when it comes to precarious folk like me: he detailed the careful communicative strategies he uses in his activism(i.e. arguing with randos on Facebook), his willingness to keep the peace when the people disagreeing with him are strategically useful, career-wise, but then launched into me full-throttle over a critique I made regarding an issue we more or less agree on.
His attempt to bully me into silence was so insulting and patronizing, I threw myself out before he could threaten to do so a second time. I left behind those very resources he's been so generous with. He later sent me an email asking if I'd left them behind on purpose, and if I still wanted to borrow them.
I don't know if this is a half-assed apology, or a further attempt to exploit my precarity. I have little to no access to these resources in my not-likely-to-change-soon situation, but I will likely continue to make the most of other stuff he's been generous enough to share with me.
Stand on my feet, live on my knees, or some third choice I can't see right now?
Wait you don't say the relationship is romantic or sexual but that seems like an undeniably important issue to address. Are you sure he only values you (or valued you) as a friend?
posted by spitbull at 6:32 PM on May 5, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by spitbull at 6:32 PM on May 5, 2017 [6 favorites]
Stand.
If you think it's worth it, try to get him to understand that bullying is not going to be an acceptable condition of friendship. Try to get him to understand that you won't be badgered or browbeaten into assent. Tell him he's a tiresome windbag, that he needs to stop, and that you value his friendship when he's actually being a friend.
If you think this relationship is net value to you, make that effort.
If not, walk away.
Trying to be understanding here; normally my advice would match spitbull's.
posted by Emperor SnooKloze at 6:36 PM on May 5, 2017 [4 favorites]
If you think it's worth it, try to get him to understand that bullying is not going to be an acceptable condition of friendship. Try to get him to understand that you won't be badgered or browbeaten into assent. Tell him he's a tiresome windbag, that he needs to stop, and that you value his friendship when he's actually being a friend.
If you think this relationship is net value to you, make that effort.
If not, walk away.
Trying to be understanding here; normally my advice would match spitbull's.
posted by Emperor SnooKloze at 6:36 PM on May 5, 2017 [4 favorites]
His generosity is less than generous; it has strings attached. He thinks he can buy you. It sounds like his interpersonal skills really blow (FB arguments as activism???) and I'm sure he thinks his money buys your obedience. He sounds like he mistakes obedience for loyalty; very manipulative. I've had some people like that in my life; they will fade once you stand up for yourself.
Therefore, you don't need to end it. Simply assert yourself, don't allow yourself to be bought and he will disappear.
posted by GospelofWesleyWillis at 6:44 PM on May 5, 2017 [5 favorites]
Therefore, you don't need to end it. Simply assert yourself, don't allow yourself to be bought and he will disappear.
posted by GospelofWesleyWillis at 6:44 PM on May 5, 2017 [5 favorites]
Also on the off-chance that he respects your assertiveness, then maybe this friendship can be salvaged. But like others have said, get him to articulate his intentions on romance or not. He may be testing your boundaries to see if you would be a very submissive (thus abusable) partner. If he gets offended or overbearing when you assert yourself, run like the fucking wind because things will only get worse.
Sometimes manipulators can be nice and give us what we want, btw. That's what can make them good at what they do; they sniff out our needs (like your need for affirmation) and exploit them, even if they don't even consciously know what they are doing. Like I said, his interpersonal skills are shit.
posted by GospelofWesleyWillis at 6:53 PM on May 5, 2017 [4 favorites]
Sometimes manipulators can be nice and give us what we want, btw. That's what can make them good at what they do; they sniff out our needs (like your need for affirmation) and exploit them, even if they don't even consciously know what they are doing. Like I said, his interpersonal skills are shit.
posted by GospelofWesleyWillis at 6:53 PM on May 5, 2017 [4 favorites]
Response by poster: While creative collaborations have an undeniable element of closeness and even romance, he and I are both hetero dudes, and he lives with his girlfriend. I've had a few creative partnerships bite the dust in a manner resembling a romantic breakup. In each case, I've been the scapegoat for the other person's frustrations with either the process or themselves. It's likely to also be the case in this instance. I've never regarded him as someone with noticeably poor social skills, but it is telling that he's made no new friends after a year in his new home, while it only took me seven hours to do so. The welcoming warmth of the fine patrons of my new not-so-local watering hole is a credit to their city.
posted by Paddle to Sea at 7:34 PM on May 5, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by Paddle to Sea at 7:34 PM on May 5, 2017 [2 favorites]
Maybe he's having trouble making friends in his new city (and maybe there's a reason). It's not your problem, you don't have to continue the friendship if he's being weird.
posted by padraigin at 7:45 PM on May 5, 2017
posted by padraigin at 7:45 PM on May 5, 2017
Best answer: I`ve had a very similar situation. I was in a vulnerable time in my life and made friends with an activist woman and we worked on creative stuff together and affirmed each other`s talents and the friendship was so close that at times people thought we were dating (I was never into her that way).
But the thing about these self proclaimed activists is that while they may have very enlightened thoughts and ideas, OFTEN THIS ENLIGHTENMENT HAS NO EFFECT ON THEIR INTERPERSONAL BEHAVIOUR. I`ve had to learn this the hard way over and over. It`s very confusing and difficult to separate someone's ideas from their behaviour especially when you are both passionate about the same types of topics and genuinely share those beliefs.
In my case, I gradually came to see that this was a person who always made a mountain of a molehill for the sake of her politics, but meanwhile, in reality, she treats other people like vessels she can use for her own personal purposes. all of this is done unintentionally, and she`has some very sweet qualities and wonderful aspects, but the thing that makes it unbearable is that any hint that you disagree with her will be met with a freak-out, a tantrum, a shouting match, or accusations that you are (Some form of oppressor -- name your flavour). It`s an inability to tolerate disagreement, an inability to entertain the possibility that one might be wrong from time to time. And despite all the strength of having convictions, this is an extremely fragile person who is impossible to be around because you have to walk on eggshells, lest you (intentionally or not) hurt their feelings (and thus become a symbol of The Man/ Capitalism/ Patriarchy/ whatever)
Wowwww I went on a little tangent there. The point is, this guy seems like a very fragile person and that fragility will come back to haunt you again and again. It's scary to depend on someone like that, who could freak out on you at any moment. But that's their reality, and that's their normal, and it's not gonna change any time soon.
I have faith in you that you can find other people out there who can support you but not expect you to be their protégé/ disciple/ whatever they subconsiously and unintentionally have built up within their fragile psyche. He's not the only one who can be there for you, and just remember that he's not gonna change.
the positive side of this is that you've genuinely gained a bigger appreciation of your own talents and abilities. And know that he is definitely not the only person that will see those.. You have within you the ability to nurture those talents all by yourself. Everything he gave you emotionally, you have the capacity to give yourself if you can find Self-Love. It takes time (took me years and I'm still working on it), but creativity comes from within You, not from someone else. this encounter set you on a path that you can continue, while leaving behind the drama.
posted by winterportage at 8:00 PM on May 5, 2017 [15 favorites]
But the thing about these self proclaimed activists is that while they may have very enlightened thoughts and ideas, OFTEN THIS ENLIGHTENMENT HAS NO EFFECT ON THEIR INTERPERSONAL BEHAVIOUR. I`ve had to learn this the hard way over and over. It`s very confusing and difficult to separate someone's ideas from their behaviour especially when you are both passionate about the same types of topics and genuinely share those beliefs.
In my case, I gradually came to see that this was a person who always made a mountain of a molehill for the sake of her politics, but meanwhile, in reality, she treats other people like vessels she can use for her own personal purposes. all of this is done unintentionally, and she`has some very sweet qualities and wonderful aspects, but the thing that makes it unbearable is that any hint that you disagree with her will be met with a freak-out, a tantrum, a shouting match, or accusations that you are (Some form of oppressor -- name your flavour). It`s an inability to tolerate disagreement, an inability to entertain the possibility that one might be wrong from time to time. And despite all the strength of having convictions, this is an extremely fragile person who is impossible to be around because you have to walk on eggshells, lest you (intentionally or not) hurt their feelings (and thus become a symbol of The Man/ Capitalism/ Patriarchy/ whatever)
Wowwww I went on a little tangent there. The point is, this guy seems like a very fragile person and that fragility will come back to haunt you again and again. It's scary to depend on someone like that, who could freak out on you at any moment. But that's their reality, and that's their normal, and it's not gonna change any time soon.
I have faith in you that you can find other people out there who can support you but not expect you to be their protégé/ disciple/ whatever they subconsiously and unintentionally have built up within their fragile psyche. He's not the only one who can be there for you, and just remember that he's not gonna change.
the positive side of this is that you've genuinely gained a bigger appreciation of your own talents and abilities. And know that he is definitely not the only person that will see those.. You have within you the ability to nurture those talents all by yourself. Everything he gave you emotionally, you have the capacity to give yourself if you can find Self-Love. It takes time (took me years and I'm still working on it), but creativity comes from within You, not from someone else. this encounter set you on a path that you can continue, while leaving behind the drama.
posted by winterportage at 8:00 PM on May 5, 2017 [15 favorites]
I don't know if this is a half-assed apology, or a further attempt to exploit my precarity. I have little to no access to these resources in my not-likely-to-change-soon situation, but I will likely continue to make the most of other stuff he's been generous enough to share with me.
people who were him and not you in that interaction might describe his part of it as the so-rational-sounding "critique" and yours as the "launching into [him]." doesn't mean you're not objectively right, but nothing without a Sorry in it is likely to be an apology. Him trying to show he's not still mad, maybe.
If he's a dick, don't talk to him; if you don't want to see him again don't accept his offers of whatever he's offering, which, sure, are probably attempts to basically pay you to hang out with him because he is not good at making or keeping friends. but being repeatedly generous to you is not him exploiting you. To his credit, he has not accused you of exploiting him, which I am sure would also be unfair but would make more (any) sense given the circumstances.
posted by queenofbithynia at 8:02 PM on May 5, 2017
Narcissist. Leave.
posted by Miko at 8:47 PM on May 5, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by Miko at 8:47 PM on May 5, 2017 [4 favorites]
Response by poster: Agreed, queenofbithynia. The exploitation was offering me work and then pretty much refusing to give me any. Perhaps exploitation isn't the exact right word, but given that he knows I've had few opportunities for me to demonstrate my value in this area, it's at least manipulative, if not outright mean.
posted by Paddle to Sea at 8:57 PM on May 5, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by Paddle to Sea at 8:57 PM on May 5, 2017 [2 favorites]
Was alcohol involved in this argument by any chance? If this all occurred in one night I think I'd chalk it up to him being socially isolated all year and losing his mind a bit. Actually, I'd probably not bother with someone who did that but since you went to a bar after leaving I'm wondering if you were both drinking?
posted by fshgrl at 1:02 AM on May 6, 2017
posted by fshgrl at 1:02 AM on May 6, 2017
Response by poster: Alcohol? No. Maddening social isolation? Looks likely.
posted by Paddle to Sea at 5:58 AM on May 6, 2017
posted by Paddle to Sea at 5:58 AM on May 6, 2017
Wait, help me understand. So he did pay your travel expense, but hasn't paid you for work, because he hasn't actually asked you for any work? Is that correct?
If that's right, I mean, this is terrible -- luring you somewhere and wasting your time for a paid gig that doesn't exist. The social skills issues would be far secondary. (Although they would be an explanation for WHY he wanted you to come out., viz., for you to be his audience while he rants, which is something that folks like him enjoy.)
Did I misunderstand?
posted by fingersandtoes at 9:19 AM on May 6, 2017
If that's right, I mean, this is terrible -- luring you somewhere and wasting your time for a paid gig that doesn't exist. The social skills issues would be far secondary. (Although they would be an explanation for WHY he wanted you to come out., viz., for you to be his audience while he rants, which is something that folks like him enjoy.)
Did I misunderstand?
posted by fingersandtoes at 9:19 AM on May 6, 2017
Response by poster: Oh no, I got paid in advance. I wasn't paid for my work, however. It's more like I was unwittingly bribed. I'm not even sure my time was wasted: he was doing interesting stuff; I got to make new friends in a strange city. If I send him back half the money, I'll have broken even on the trip.
But I backed out of an ongoing volunteer commitment to make this trip, one that's vitally important to me. I would not have done that if I hadn't been under the impression that I would get to bring my creative skills/insight to bear in my chosen field.
What he actually needed was a smart person to admire his cleverness. Perhaps he lost it because I was refusing to fill the role he'd actually paid me for. As winterportage said, a lot of this might be unintentional. But is it not demeaning nonetheless?
posted by Paddle to Sea at 1:34 PM on May 6, 2017
But I backed out of an ongoing volunteer commitment to make this trip, one that's vitally important to me. I would not have done that if I hadn't been under the impression that I would get to bring my creative skills/insight to bear in my chosen field.
What he actually needed was a smart person to admire his cleverness. Perhaps he lost it because I was refusing to fill the role he'd actually paid me for. As winterportage said, a lot of this might be unintentional. But is it not demeaning nonetheless?
posted by Paddle to Sea at 1:34 PM on May 6, 2017
Best answer: Oh, I see. Well, no, I don't think so. I mean, the service he wanted you to provide (admiring his cleverness) was not the one that you signed up for, and you're understandably annoyed that the guy wanted you to be his audience rather than his buddy; but I don't think he meant it to be insulting. Probably thinks being his audience is a great use of time.
Honestly I think the reason you're surprised/offended is that you're a dude and haven't been treated this way before by a man. It's par for the course if you're female (being treated to something by a guy, and in exchange being expected to listen to him adoringly.) I get that it wasn't what you signed up for and you're right to be irritated. But think of the lesson you got in what it's like to be a woman... it's like freaky friday time up in here.
posted by fingersandtoes at 3:16 PM on May 6, 2017 [11 favorites]
Honestly I think the reason you're surprised/offended is that you're a dude and haven't been treated this way before by a man. It's par for the course if you're female (being treated to something by a guy, and in exchange being expected to listen to him adoringly.) I get that it wasn't what you signed up for and you're right to be irritated. But think of the lesson you got in what it's like to be a woman... it's like freaky friday time up in here.
posted by fingersandtoes at 3:16 PM on May 6, 2017 [11 favorites]
is it not demeaning nonetheless?
Sure it is, but what do you want? Chalk it up to a lesson learned (avoid narcissists and don't let people prey on you through flattery), and move on.
posted by Miko at 4:49 PM on May 6, 2017
Sure it is, but what do you want? Chalk it up to a lesson learned (avoid narcissists and don't let people prey on you through flattery), and move on.
posted by Miko at 4:49 PM on May 6, 2017
Best answer: Paddle, AskMefi isn't for back and forth chat.
I'd say ditch. People can be correct, and still be dicks. The latter is the more important bit.
posted by Sebmojo at 11:36 PM on May 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
I'd say ditch. People can be correct, and still be dicks. The latter is the more important bit.
posted by Sebmojo at 11:36 PM on May 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
I'd also like to add that I differentiate interpersonal skills with basic social skills. Like maybe he can do small talk and superficial stuff, but his ability to connect with people on a mutually respectful, even ground way is impaired. He has to have the upper hand. Thus few people probably stick around for his domineering crap. Narcissism, bossy, overbearing etc. You might be able to chat at a party when people are drinking or whatever, but sustaining relationships of any kind is another thing.
posted by GospelofWesleyWillis at 6:31 PM on May 7, 2017
posted by GospelofWesleyWillis at 6:31 PM on May 7, 2017
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posted by spitbull at 6:31 PM on May 5, 2017 [34 favorites]