How to help anxious students get perspective about college admissions?
May 5, 2017 8:01 AM Subscribe
I tutor twin girls who are just finishing their freshman year of high school; I've been working with them since they were in fifth grade (they're my best friend's daughters). They are two of the best kids I know - bright, funny, thoughtful, considerate, mature, and just all around wonderful people. But they are SO STRESSED about applying and getting into Ivy League colleges that it's causing them extreme anxiety and I hate to see them feeling that way. What can I do in my limited role in their life to help them see the bigger picture?
My best friend is really anxious herself about her kids succeeding in life; she and her husband are immigrants who feel like they were hampered by going to state schools as ESL students. So she's raised her kids to believe in the power of education (good) and that nothing else than an Ivy League education will suffice (not so good).
Now that the kids are in high school and college is looming closer, they're getting incredibly stressed out about college admissions. They are under the impression that they have to have nothing less than a perfect 4.0 GPA and multiple extracurriculars to even have a shot at an Ivy League. Meanwhile, they are in the top ten students in their class, and they take art classes and piano lessons and vocal lessons and are really well-rounded in their love of the arts on top of academics. But all they can see are the ways in which they feel inadequate in the light of what college admissions offices want.
I've tried to talk to them about what it was like when I applied to college, but I applied 25 years ago - god only knows how much things have changed since then. Are college admissions really looking for the robotic perfect student who's never received a grade below an A? Or are there sources that I can share with them that would show that the requirements aren't as strict as they think they are?
One of the things that I do with them is read articles together to identify unknown vocabulary words to learn, but I always try to find articles that they'll find interesting and challenging and give them a perspective they might not have considered before. So I would also love any suggestions for readings we can do together that could put college admissions and academic achievements into a more reasonable light.
Right now what I've been doing is just listening to them and telling them how much I value them for their personalities and character and that grades aren't a measure of their worthiness as humans, but they're still mired in all that pressure. Lately they've been talking about how much they hate themselves and how worthless they are because they're not getting 100s in all their classes and it's breaking my heart to see these wonderful kids so crushed.
If you were a student in their shoes, or a parent with kids this stressed out, what helped? I realize that I'm just a tutor and a friend and I have no authority - but I'd love to be a voice to plant a seed that they don't need to be perfect academic automotons to feel good about themselves.
My best friend is really anxious herself about her kids succeeding in life; she and her husband are immigrants who feel like they were hampered by going to state schools as ESL students. So she's raised her kids to believe in the power of education (good) and that nothing else than an Ivy League education will suffice (not so good).
Now that the kids are in high school and college is looming closer, they're getting incredibly stressed out about college admissions. They are under the impression that they have to have nothing less than a perfect 4.0 GPA and multiple extracurriculars to even have a shot at an Ivy League. Meanwhile, they are in the top ten students in their class, and they take art classes and piano lessons and vocal lessons and are really well-rounded in their love of the arts on top of academics. But all they can see are the ways in which they feel inadequate in the light of what college admissions offices want.
I've tried to talk to them about what it was like when I applied to college, but I applied 25 years ago - god only knows how much things have changed since then. Are college admissions really looking for the robotic perfect student who's never received a grade below an A? Or are there sources that I can share with them that would show that the requirements aren't as strict as they think they are?
One of the things that I do with them is read articles together to identify unknown vocabulary words to learn, but I always try to find articles that they'll find interesting and challenging and give them a perspective they might not have considered before. So I would also love any suggestions for readings we can do together that could put college admissions and academic achievements into a more reasonable light.
Right now what I've been doing is just listening to them and telling them how much I value them for their personalities and character and that grades aren't a measure of their worthiness as humans, but they're still mired in all that pressure. Lately they've been talking about how much they hate themselves and how worthless they are because they're not getting 100s in all their classes and it's breaking my heart to see these wonderful kids so crushed.
If you were a student in their shoes, or a parent with kids this stressed out, what helped? I realize that I'm just a tutor and a friend and I have no authority - but I'd love to be a voice to plant a seed that they don't need to be perfect academic automotons to feel good about themselves.
A very valuable thing for these kids would be to meet some students and graduates from your local state school, community college, "last choice" university, and so on.
That Chase-The-Ivies mentality was just as pernicious when I was in high school, and the irony is that it doesn't usually amount to much. High school freshmen haven't often tasted the adult world, so of course they respond to the status of an Ivy or big-name school. But do they know what they want to get out of college? If they think they know what they want to be when they grow up, is that arriving out of an imagined way of life or because they know someone who works professionally in the field and they know what kind of work they want to be doing?
Example: our oldest was crushed when he didn't get into his university of choice. He didn't even apply to a second school--he was convinced it was admission or bust. But when we talked to him about why he was so set on this uni, he couldn't tell us much beyond, "because it's the school." He didn't say, "Because Dr. X is a professor there and I want to do the work he does." He didn't say, "Company Z has an internship program there and I really want to do the work they do." He had unrealistic, almost nonexistent expectations beyond "get admitted," and I think a lot of young folks are like that (step 1: get admitted; step 2: ???; step 3: profit!).
What we did: first we helped him apply to our local community college. He met a lot of other students in his position, people trying to get in to the uni. We got him to start going to open house nights at the uni. He met a bunch of students, alumni, and professors. We got him to start reading publications from a couple of the labs he liked. Two years later, he applied to transfer to the uni and got in. In his application materials, he talked about this process, and he mentioned what a world of difference it had made to connect with the work that interested him that was being done at the uni.
In hindsight, our kid recognizes how naive his expectations were in high school. I recognize how little we did to help him get a better handle on what college is like, what you can get out of it. And so I wish we'd taken him to open house nights, student events, and generally introduced him to the nuts and bolts of academia rather than letting him focus on the glossy exterior. Live and learn!
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 9:01 AM on May 5, 2017 [9 favorites]
That Chase-The-Ivies mentality was just as pernicious when I was in high school, and the irony is that it doesn't usually amount to much. High school freshmen haven't often tasted the adult world, so of course they respond to the status of an Ivy or big-name school. But do they know what they want to get out of college? If they think they know what they want to be when they grow up, is that arriving out of an imagined way of life or because they know someone who works professionally in the field and they know what kind of work they want to be doing?
Example: our oldest was crushed when he didn't get into his university of choice. He didn't even apply to a second school--he was convinced it was admission or bust. But when we talked to him about why he was so set on this uni, he couldn't tell us much beyond, "because it's the school." He didn't say, "Because Dr. X is a professor there and I want to do the work he does." He didn't say, "Company Z has an internship program there and I really want to do the work they do." He had unrealistic, almost nonexistent expectations beyond "get admitted," and I think a lot of young folks are like that (step 1: get admitted; step 2: ???; step 3: profit!).
What we did: first we helped him apply to our local community college. He met a lot of other students in his position, people trying to get in to the uni. We got him to start going to open house nights at the uni. He met a bunch of students, alumni, and professors. We got him to start reading publications from a couple of the labs he liked. Two years later, he applied to transfer to the uni and got in. In his application materials, he talked about this process, and he mentioned what a world of difference it had made to connect with the work that interested him that was being done at the uni.
In hindsight, our kid recognizes how naive his expectations were in high school. I recognize how little we did to help him get a better handle on what college is like, what you can get out of it. And so I wish we'd taken him to open house nights, student events, and generally introduced him to the nuts and bolts of academia rather than letting him focus on the glossy exterior. Live and learn!
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 9:01 AM on May 5, 2017 [9 favorites]
I don't know how to get the parents to change their attitude, but you can get aggregated data about what it takes to get into various schools at College Data. Someone I know recently applied to law school and we used a similar website to track his prospects, and it was absolutely true. Any school where his GPA and LSAT fell into the range, he was accepted. Anywhere he was higher than the range, he was offered a scholarship. Any school that considered him a "splitter" (higher GPA/lower LSAT or vice-versa) put him on the waitlist. And all of the schools that had standards higher than he had achieved (Yale, Columbia) did not admit him. There were a few outliers that were accepted into the those Ivy schools (according to the data) despite having a lower GPA and/or LSAT, and those people were unusual candidates in some way -- immigrant, minority, Olympian, etc. Before starting this process, I really thought a candidate could stand out by virtue of a great essay or non-standard volunteer experience, but that's not true. If you want to get into an Ivy, you have to have the correct GPA and standardized test scores. And even then, it's still not a guarantee because there are lots of 4.0 valedictorians out there.
posted by xo at 9:04 AM on May 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by xo at 9:04 AM on May 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
The Enlightened College Applicant is a book that deals with these issues as it explains the search/application process. The "mythbusters" chapter especially.
Colleges that Change Lives has profiles of not-Ivies that include "Life After College" sections. Those make it pretty clear that there's lots of opportunity in what they might now consider "middle ground."
posted by gnomeloaf at 9:11 AM on May 5, 2017 [5 favorites]
Colleges that Change Lives has profiles of not-Ivies that include "Life After College" sections. Those make it pretty clear that there's lots of opportunity in what they might now consider "middle ground."
posted by gnomeloaf at 9:11 AM on May 5, 2017 [5 favorites]
I teach at a school that's as or more competitive than the Ivies, although I don't have anything to do with admissions. And I can tell from the kids I see in my classrooms that some of them definitely get in here without straight As. But if they do, it's often because they are exceptional in some other way: athletics, extra-curriculars, hyper-wealth, etc.
And it's very important for both these kids and their parents to understand that not even straight As will guarantee them admission to an Ivy League school. In the case of the top schools, they're competing against not just the best students in America, but the best students in the world. The numbers just don't work out: there are far more exceptional and amazing high eighteen year-olds out there than there are places in these top schools. Stanford, for instance, has a 5% acceptance rate. That's nuts.
So it's important for the parents to ratchet that pressure down. They could produce a pair of straight-As robots who still don't get into that top school, and they'd have nothing to show for it but decades of therapy afterwards.
And the reality is that kids can get an amazing education at a whole range of schools: the public Ivies, elite small liberal arts colleges, etc. And that's just ones that have similar-but-not-quite-the-same prestige. In terms of education, a huge number of institutions out there would provide an equal or better experience than the elite schools. (Many people don't realize that elite research universities don't hire or promote faculty based on their undergrad teaching. Quite a few distinguished faculty at my university see undergrad teaching as a task to be avoided at all costs, and they are rewarded for that.)
When I was applying to colleges, a book that helped me think about this was Loren Pope's Colleges that Change Lives (which helped me decide on a small liberal arts college). I see he also has a book called Looking Beyond the Ivy League. Doubtless there are newer resources out there, though.
posted by col_pogo at 9:12 AM on May 5, 2017 [2 favorites]
And it's very important for both these kids and their parents to understand that not even straight As will guarantee them admission to an Ivy League school. In the case of the top schools, they're competing against not just the best students in America, but the best students in the world. The numbers just don't work out: there are far more exceptional and amazing high eighteen year-olds out there than there are places in these top schools. Stanford, for instance, has a 5% acceptance rate. That's nuts.
So it's important for the parents to ratchet that pressure down. They could produce a pair of straight-As robots who still don't get into that top school, and they'd have nothing to show for it but decades of therapy afterwards.
And the reality is that kids can get an amazing education at a whole range of schools: the public Ivies, elite small liberal arts colleges, etc. And that's just ones that have similar-but-not-quite-the-same prestige. In terms of education, a huge number of institutions out there would provide an equal or better experience than the elite schools. (Many people don't realize that elite research universities don't hire or promote faculty based on their undergrad teaching. Quite a few distinguished faculty at my university see undergrad teaching as a task to be avoided at all costs, and they are rewarded for that.)
When I was applying to colleges, a book that helped me think about this was Loren Pope's Colleges that Change Lives (which helped me decide on a small liberal arts college). I see he also has a book called Looking Beyond the Ivy League. Doubtless there are newer resources out there, though.
posted by col_pogo at 9:12 AM on May 5, 2017 [2 favorites]
This was from 2007, but I imagine it's just as true as today: Young, gifted, and not getting into Harvard. It's depressing, but if it helps frame things in a way that takes some pressure off, maybe it's worth it. Basically: they're right. Chances are, no matter what they do, they're unlikely to get in. Not because they're inherently not good enough, but because there are a limited number of slots and they were born during a baby boom, so there are exponentially more kids out there, just like them, who are also good enough. So there's a certain winning the lottery / lightning striking element involved in getting into Harvard and Yale now that wasn't there for Gen Xers.
The "good" news is, that getting into an Ivy isn't just about college anymore. What do they want to do after college? If it's something that requires a Master's or PhD (or law school, or med school, etc.) it actually becomes easier to get into an Ivy League school for the next tier. So long as they pick a college that's got strong academics or an honors track, and they focus. Which is good advice, anyway, because if the whole point of getting into a great school is to have a great future, then finding a career path, focusing on it, and excelling, are pretty much what you need to get ahead regardless.
I always like recommending the "Insider's Guide to the Colleges" and other student-written reviews of universities - when you're in high school, it's easy to believe all colleges are pretty much the same, and attract the same wide mix of students. But every college has its own vibe, and the girls may find that some of the Ivies don't even sound like a place where they'd be happy, where College X that they never considered might be a great fit. And it's a nice reminder that there are plenty of prestigious, highly competitive, and high-achieving colleges and universities out there that aren't in the Ivy league.
posted by Mchelly at 9:21 AM on May 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
The "good" news is, that getting into an Ivy isn't just about college anymore. What do they want to do after college? If it's something that requires a Master's or PhD (or law school, or med school, etc.) it actually becomes easier to get into an Ivy League school for the next tier. So long as they pick a college that's got strong academics or an honors track, and they focus. Which is good advice, anyway, because if the whole point of getting into a great school is to have a great future, then finding a career path, focusing on it, and excelling, are pretty much what you need to get ahead regardless.
I always like recommending the "Insider's Guide to the Colleges" and other student-written reviews of universities - when you're in high school, it's easy to believe all colleges are pretty much the same, and attract the same wide mix of students. But every college has its own vibe, and the girls may find that some of the Ivies don't even sound like a place where they'd be happy, where College X that they never considered might be a great fit. And it's a nice reminder that there are plenty of prestigious, highly competitive, and high-achieving colleges and universities out there that aren't in the Ivy league.
posted by Mchelly at 9:21 AM on May 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
The very best advice we received from our kid's high school college counseling department: it's a crapshoot. Really. You could be the most perfect applicant who ticks every single one of the college's boxes but guess what? There are actually 47 of you! And they only need 3 of you to round out the class that they're building! So the admissions department randomly chooses the 3 out of the 47 identical applicants and you aren't one of them. This can really happen (as told to us by current college admissions officers). And it's not a reflection on you or your worth.
Second best piece of advice from the counseling department: it's not so much where you go but what you do when you get there, and what you make of the opportunities that are given to you. So, you show up on day one and you find out there's a professor doing research on that super cool thing you read about and you really, really want to learn more about it: talk to that professor! You may end up being invited to participate! You join a club in your sophomore year and the next year they need a new treasurer and your major is accounting, so be the treasurer! It's a leadership opportunity that will look sweet on your CV!
The last piece of advice is from me, mother of a current college sophomore and high school junior, to the parents: seriously, chill the freak out on this stuff or you could very well end up damaging your daughters' mental health. Or, god forbid, one of them could really go off the deep end and there are way too many stories of teen suicide related to familial pressures. Stop being "those" parents. It's not good for your kids.
posted by cooker girl at 11:08 AM on May 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
Second best piece of advice from the counseling department: it's not so much where you go but what you do when you get there, and what you make of the opportunities that are given to you. So, you show up on day one and you find out there's a professor doing research on that super cool thing you read about and you really, really want to learn more about it: talk to that professor! You may end up being invited to participate! You join a club in your sophomore year and the next year they need a new treasurer and your major is accounting, so be the treasurer! It's a leadership opportunity that will look sweet on your CV!
The last piece of advice is from me, mother of a current college sophomore and high school junior, to the parents: seriously, chill the freak out on this stuff or you could very well end up damaging your daughters' mental health. Or, god forbid, one of them could really go off the deep end and there are way too many stories of teen suicide related to familial pressures. Stop being "those" parents. It's not good for your kids.
posted by cooker girl at 11:08 AM on May 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
The immigrant angle is something to consider here: very often, immigrant families look at Ivy League colleges because, well, they're well-known and prestigious - and that's all they know within their social circle. And that becomes the basis for what is a good higher education. It becomes an end-goal, the happy movie ending, rather than a stepping stone to careers and whatnot. They don't know about the local community colleges or universities because those institutions don't have the worldwide renown, but they're just as good.
In your shoes, I would encourage the kids and their families to visit their local and nearby colleges and universities if they haven't done so already, as many have pointed out before. Preferably during those open-house events. It's important for the kids to actually walk the campus and talk to people, but just as important for the parents to be there and get a real-life sense of college life, and hopefully be more open about college choice. Because there's no point going to an elite university if you don't have an outlook for post-college life.
And yes, they should also understand that the elite universities' admission process is practically a lottery. You can be all A+s with ten extracurricular activities under your belt and still not get into Harvard because your number just didn't come up. That's just luck, and it can happen to ANYONE.
Good luck to you and the kids! I grew up in a family with the same mentality, and it was a struggle, so I totally get where the kids are coming from. Luckily my parents opened up a bit since my college days.
posted by curagea at 11:31 AM on May 5, 2017 [4 favorites]
In your shoes, I would encourage the kids and their families to visit their local and nearby colleges and universities if they haven't done so already, as many have pointed out before. Preferably during those open-house events. It's important for the kids to actually walk the campus and talk to people, but just as important for the parents to be there and get a real-life sense of college life, and hopefully be more open about college choice. Because there's no point going to an elite university if you don't have an outlook for post-college life.
And yes, they should also understand that the elite universities' admission process is practically a lottery. You can be all A+s with ten extracurricular activities under your belt and still not get into Harvard because your number just didn't come up. That's just luck, and it can happen to ANYONE.
Good luck to you and the kids! I grew up in a family with the same mentality, and it was a struggle, so I totally get where the kids are coming from. Luckily my parents opened up a bit since my college days.
posted by curagea at 11:31 AM on May 5, 2017 [4 favorites]
Frank Bruni's book, Where You Go is Not Who You'll Be is probably better for parents than for kids. Kids will get it into their heads that they want to go to a certain college, or a certain kind of college, and telling them it's not the end of the world if they don't just makes them think you are preparing them for "failure." But parents-- and you, as a friend-- can steer them towards a reasonable array of choices. Don't leave this to the college counselor alone. If the family behaves like an active consumer, looking for the college that will best suit their kid, it will balance that sense of being judged as a person.
I know it's hard, and it's probably harder if you are from an upwardly-striving family, but it really is good to focus on what you want out of college and what the college can do for you. If you are a good enough student to even be considering the Ivy League, you will almost certainly get in someplace that's just fine. Now, paying for it is another matter and hopefully the parents are also getting some guidance about that.
posted by BibiRose at 11:40 AM on May 5, 2017 [2 favorites]
I know it's hard, and it's probably harder if you are from an upwardly-striving family, but it really is good to focus on what you want out of college and what the college can do for you. If you are a good enough student to even be considering the Ivy League, you will almost certainly get in someplace that's just fine. Now, paying for it is another matter and hopefully the parents are also getting some guidance about that.
posted by BibiRose at 11:40 AM on May 5, 2017 [2 favorites]
TBH, I think you're approaching this from the wrong angle. Can you convince the parents to let up a little? This pressure is awful for the kids and for the family dynamic.
posted by radioamy at 11:41 AM on May 5, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by radioamy at 11:41 AM on May 5, 2017 [5 favorites]
With regard to my comment about guidance counselors-- my partner is from an immigrant family, and they were not savvy about US college admissions and funding for college, and he ended up at a college that was not good for him, and a major that was not right for him, and in a crap ton of debt. Mind you, they were living in the kind of suburb people move to for the schools. People need to not accept a list of colleges handed to them by a guidance counselor. A lot of them are very good, but they are often too busy to really "get" each student.
posted by BibiRose at 11:55 AM on May 5, 2017
posted by BibiRose at 11:55 AM on May 5, 2017
I graduated from a top 100ish (lol), certainly not Ivy League school with a 2.1 GPA, make a ton of money and have an incredible career and life. Education is just a thing you do for 4 years. It can be more, but it's not the be-all end-all. It's important, but it's just one facet of the full picture of your life and career.
Encourage them to find and pursue their passions -- if you just aim for the best college ever, then what?
posted by so fucking future at 8:08 PM on May 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
Encourage them to find and pursue their passions -- if you just aim for the best college ever, then what?
posted by so fucking future at 8:08 PM on May 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
Don't Send Your Kid to the Ivy League
I agree you might be better off addressing the parents directly. Are they aware of the odds of admission to Ivy League schools? Even students who are "perfect" can't all get in. What they're asking of their children may essentially be the impossible. Why is the Ivy League so important to them? Do they think that students at other universities are not likely to be successful in life? Do they think the classes they would take there would be that much different? I personally went to a non-Ivy League college, but now work at an Ivy League and have sat in on classes there and can assure them that the classes are variable, certainly with some classes being excellent but others being terrible, just like at my alma mater. I have found the assertions in the article above to be pervasive in my current atmosphere - all the students are obsessed with how they are being graded and perceived, unfortunately it is the minority of them who are concerned with how much they are learning and how well they are learning it. This is where we as parents should be pushing our children - to educate themselves, rather than to use an education as a means to an end.
posted by treehorn+bunny at 2:11 AM on May 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
I agree you might be better off addressing the parents directly. Are they aware of the odds of admission to Ivy League schools? Even students who are "perfect" can't all get in. What they're asking of their children may essentially be the impossible. Why is the Ivy League so important to them? Do they think that students at other universities are not likely to be successful in life? Do they think the classes they would take there would be that much different? I personally went to a non-Ivy League college, but now work at an Ivy League and have sat in on classes there and can assure them that the classes are variable, certainly with some classes being excellent but others being terrible, just like at my alma mater. I have found the assertions in the article above to be pervasive in my current atmosphere - all the students are obsessed with how they are being graded and perceived, unfortunately it is the minority of them who are concerned with how much they are learning and how well they are learning it. This is where we as parents should be pushing our children - to educate themselves, rather than to use an education as a means to an end.
posted by treehorn+bunny at 2:11 AM on May 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
Maybe encourage them (either parents or kids) to look at people who are in the professions they think are most desirable, at the highest levels/who are top achievers - I can promise many of them went to state schools or other non-Ivies. How do they reconcile the fact that people doing the things they hope to do didn't go to Ivy League schools, yet they are saying that Ivy League education is absolutely necessary?
Sometimes people just can't be reasoned with. I had a friend whose parents were this way and eventually just had to be ignored. There was a lot of tragic heartache about it, but in the end the parents forgave my friend for doing things in a different way than they had wanted, "un-disowned" my friend and are now doting grandparents.
posted by treehorn+bunny at 2:14 AM on May 6, 2017
Sometimes people just can't be reasoned with. I had a friend whose parents were this way and eventually just had to be ignored. There was a lot of tragic heartache about it, but in the end the parents forgave my friend for doing things in a different way than they had wanted, "un-disowned" my friend and are now doting grandparents.
posted by treehorn+bunny at 2:14 AM on May 6, 2017
This question would have been answered differently 10 years ago, but now, there is an alarming increase in teens hospitalized with suicidal thoughts and actions.
You sound like a great friend and I will point out that if the girls are expressing this much stress as freshman, this is NOT GOOD and something needs to change, now.
Teachers and guidance counselors and other high school professionals will tell you that the first thing that needs to change is the parental pressure. Even just ten years ago, many high schools had a small community of high pressure parents whose kids were pushed and driven and sometimes managed to get into top schools.
But what's changed in recent years is this number of families has basically exploded. So instead of 10 kids per high school who were viewed as kids who were being pushed way too hard, now schools are seeing 40-70 kids per high school class. This is affecting school culture in quite a few ways:
* because of this increased quantity, schools are pressured to add more and more AP level courses that these kids should not be taking;
* because these kids are now surrounded by more kids with the same ridiculous amount of pressure, it becomes increasingly normalized;
* because more teens are having suicidal thoughts and actions, that is also becoming a more normalized way to escape stress;
* because of more kids, these kids are now competitive with each other, so it's even more difficult to rise to the top of their classes; and
* these kids generally come from cultures where feelings aren't discussed and these kids can't tell anyone they're struggling.
Honestly, the only thing you can do is to tell their parents to back down and start giving the message that the kids can do whatever they do after college that makes them happy. Also, first-generation American high school students who take a lot of AP courses and do music and sports and student government are no longer considered top picks for top colleges because they're no longer unique.
posted by yes I said yes I will Yes at 2:50 AM on May 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
You sound like a great friend and I will point out that if the girls are expressing this much stress as freshman, this is NOT GOOD and something needs to change, now.
Teachers and guidance counselors and other high school professionals will tell you that the first thing that needs to change is the parental pressure. Even just ten years ago, many high schools had a small community of high pressure parents whose kids were pushed and driven and sometimes managed to get into top schools.
But what's changed in recent years is this number of families has basically exploded. So instead of 10 kids per high school who were viewed as kids who were being pushed way too hard, now schools are seeing 40-70 kids per high school class. This is affecting school culture in quite a few ways:
* because of this increased quantity, schools are pressured to add more and more AP level courses that these kids should not be taking;
* because these kids are now surrounded by more kids with the same ridiculous amount of pressure, it becomes increasingly normalized;
* because more teens are having suicidal thoughts and actions, that is also becoming a more normalized way to escape stress;
* because of more kids, these kids are now competitive with each other, so it's even more difficult to rise to the top of their classes; and
* these kids generally come from cultures where feelings aren't discussed and these kids can't tell anyone they're struggling.
Honestly, the only thing you can do is to tell their parents to back down and start giving the message that the kids can do whatever they do after college that makes them happy. Also, first-generation American high school students who take a lot of AP courses and do music and sports and student government are no longer considered top picks for top colleges because they're no longer unique.
posted by yes I said yes I will Yes at 2:50 AM on May 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
I didn't go to college, other than a few stints at community colleges throughout my 20s. When I had to pass on my dream school (which had accepted me) for financial reasons, it was devastating, but there was a mixture of thrill and fear when I discovered I was outside the patterns of the academic schedule. There was no "and then I'll graduate and my real life will begin". I was already living a real life.
I'm in my early 30s now, and a lot of my perspective from the past 15 years is the kind of "wisdom" that only comes through lived experience and can't be imparted vicariously, but I think it's important to try, if only to plant the seeds that the girls can return to when their current lifestyle breaks down.
Perspective When you're 15, you can hold your whole lived experience in both hands at once and it's hard to imagine doing anything else. The top 10 moments of your life happen within months of each other. But if you drew a timeline of a 15 year old's life expectancy--literally drew it out on a piece of paper--the 4 years of university that seem huge in the abstract are dwarfed by the expanse of the rest of life. You can fit those 4 years into the rest of life ten times over and still have wiggle room.
If it's appropriate, do thought-experiments with the girls about what they think they will experience in life and what they think it takes to make that happen. Get them to talk and think about the possibilities of life on a larger scale. If each year of their life was a minute, set a timer for 60 minutes and talk about "how old are you at this minute? what are you doing?" and sit through the whole thing. See how much their "college minutes" are on their mind when they're in their 40s minutes.
As a counterpoint to that, find notable women who have had multiple career changes, or come to their "calling" later in life before finding success. This might help to take the pressure off making the "right" decision the first time around.
Mindfulness The nature of your question focuses on this one part of the girls' lives, but as I was reading it I was thinking, "I hope these kids still have time to be kids." While I'm glad I'm not a teenager anymore, I really wish I had taken better advantage of the freedom for experimentation. At all stages of life, play is crucial. I hope these kids are still getting to spend time trying new things that don't wholly funnel towards the goal of getting into college.
I put that ramble under "mindfulness" because the girls should be aware that life isn't something that happens after graduation. They are live, valid humans even now. The mediation app I use (Headspace) has an incredibly helpful metaphor/visualization about how an anxious mind is like being on a road full of cars that you are chasing and dodging. The idea is to mentally put yourself to the side of the road and watch the cars without trying to chase them down.
Teenagers need to have the opportunity to enjoy being teenagers and not spend all their time and mental energy being pulled along a track of over achievement that goes only to one destination.
Reading material. I don't have any specific suggestions, but a quick google for "college overachiever depression" brought up a number of essays that point to the psychological risks of railroading kids in this kind of direction. Might be more the kind of thing to share with their parents.
Considering I'm not a teacher, parent, teenager, or college graduate, I was hesitant about commenting on this thread, but then I saw this bit of "old fogey" wisdom posted by Orlop in another thread. I like how it bursts the bubble of academic focus in two different ways (a: if you're not pushing yourself, you're not learning and what's the point, and b: students should have (some) freedom to set their own goals and focus effort areas where it makes sense to their development), even if they're not lessons that can really be learned just by reading them.
posted by itesser at 2:52 AM on May 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
I'm in my early 30s now, and a lot of my perspective from the past 15 years is the kind of "wisdom" that only comes through lived experience and can't be imparted vicariously, but I think it's important to try, if only to plant the seeds that the girls can return to when their current lifestyle breaks down.
Perspective When you're 15, you can hold your whole lived experience in both hands at once and it's hard to imagine doing anything else. The top 10 moments of your life happen within months of each other. But if you drew a timeline of a 15 year old's life expectancy--literally drew it out on a piece of paper--the 4 years of university that seem huge in the abstract are dwarfed by the expanse of the rest of life. You can fit those 4 years into the rest of life ten times over and still have wiggle room.
If it's appropriate, do thought-experiments with the girls about what they think they will experience in life and what they think it takes to make that happen. Get them to talk and think about the possibilities of life on a larger scale. If each year of their life was a minute, set a timer for 60 minutes and talk about "how old are you at this minute? what are you doing?" and sit through the whole thing. See how much their "college minutes" are on their mind when they're in their 40s minutes.
As a counterpoint to that, find notable women who have had multiple career changes, or come to their "calling" later in life before finding success. This might help to take the pressure off making the "right" decision the first time around.
Mindfulness The nature of your question focuses on this one part of the girls' lives, but as I was reading it I was thinking, "I hope these kids still have time to be kids." While I'm glad I'm not a teenager anymore, I really wish I had taken better advantage of the freedom for experimentation. At all stages of life, play is crucial. I hope these kids are still getting to spend time trying new things that don't wholly funnel towards the goal of getting into college.
I put that ramble under "mindfulness" because the girls should be aware that life isn't something that happens after graduation. They are live, valid humans even now. The mediation app I use (Headspace) has an incredibly helpful metaphor/visualization about how an anxious mind is like being on a road full of cars that you are chasing and dodging. The idea is to mentally put yourself to the side of the road and watch the cars without trying to chase them down.
Teenagers need to have the opportunity to enjoy being teenagers and not spend all their time and mental energy being pulled along a track of over achievement that goes only to one destination.
Reading material. I don't have any specific suggestions, but a quick google for "college overachiever depression" brought up a number of essays that point to the psychological risks of railroading kids in this kind of direction. Might be more the kind of thing to share with their parents.
Considering I'm not a teacher, parent, teenager, or college graduate, I was hesitant about commenting on this thread, but then I saw this bit of "old fogey" wisdom posted by Orlop in another thread. I like how it bursts the bubble of academic focus in two different ways (a: if you're not pushing yourself, you're not learning and what's the point, and b: students should have (some) freedom to set their own goals and focus effort areas where it makes sense to their development), even if they're not lessons that can really be learned just by reading them.
posted by itesser at 2:52 AM on May 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
//So the admissions department randomly chooses the 3 out of the 47 identical applicants and you aren't one of them.//
It may not even be random. If all 4 tuba players in the band are graduating seniors kids that play tuba are going to have a very distinct advantage that particular year. It really is a crap shoot. All they can do is apply and hope for the best. There is no formula to insure admission, except maybe mom and dad donating a couple million to the school early in their senior year of high school.
I imagine trying to get most kids that age to understand that is difficult at best.
posted by COD at 9:52 AM on May 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
It may not even be random. If all 4 tuba players in the band are graduating seniors kids that play tuba are going to have a very distinct advantage that particular year. It really is a crap shoot. All they can do is apply and hope for the best. There is no formula to insure admission, except maybe mom and dad donating a couple million to the school early in their senior year of high school.
I imagine trying to get most kids that age to understand that is difficult at best.
posted by COD at 9:52 AM on May 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
It was said about but warrants repeating - it is a crap shoot. It is a numbers game. There are so many qualified students applying from all over the world that any one student has a very low chance of getting in. Doing one more thing won't clinch it.
posted by k8t at 3:40 AM on May 7, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by k8t at 3:40 AM on May 7, 2017 [2 favorites]
Oh, those poor kids.
There are really just so many opportunities out there for good students. Yeah, there are a handful of schools with exceptional name recognition among the general public. When they are applying for jobs in their chosen field, however, it's not going to be the general public evaluating them--it's going to be people in that particular field, who know about the many good programs in their field that are not "Ivy League," and will also be very interested in the opportunities they took advantage of while they were in college to gain valuable experience. They're not going to hire someone just based on a name; they want someone who will be right for the job. Similarly, having a big name degree is not going to get you anywhere if that's the only thing on your resume. (Yeah, there is a small subset of employers who are obsessed with only hiring the most elite--a few big law firms, top investment banks--but those can be shitty place to work and it's such a small subset of opportunities.)
I know that from experience. I went to a big name school for college and, due to various personal issues, graduated with good but unexceptional grades but did not manage to do much in the way of internships, work experience, etc. I really floundered after college and it wasn't until grad school (when I made sure to get all the experience I could in my specialization) that my career started going anywhere.
In contrast, out of my peers who were equally good students in high school, I have friends who went to well-respected programs that are not Ivy League and did really well right out of college. For example, a friend went to Northeastern because of their co-op program, graduated with a ton of work experience, and got a good-paying job in his field right out of college. Another one of my friends went to a state school (I think he got a scholarship too) with a good engineering program and is doing great too.
posted by Squalor Victoria at 7:43 AM on May 7, 2017
There are really just so many opportunities out there for good students. Yeah, there are a handful of schools with exceptional name recognition among the general public. When they are applying for jobs in their chosen field, however, it's not going to be the general public evaluating them--it's going to be people in that particular field, who know about the many good programs in their field that are not "Ivy League," and will also be very interested in the opportunities they took advantage of while they were in college to gain valuable experience. They're not going to hire someone just based on a name; they want someone who will be right for the job. Similarly, having a big name degree is not going to get you anywhere if that's the only thing on your resume. (Yeah, there is a small subset of employers who are obsessed with only hiring the most elite--a few big law firms, top investment banks--but those can be shitty place to work and it's such a small subset of opportunities.)
I know that from experience. I went to a big name school for college and, due to various personal issues, graduated with good but unexceptional grades but did not manage to do much in the way of internships, work experience, etc. I really floundered after college and it wasn't until grad school (when I made sure to get all the experience I could in my specialization) that my career started going anywhere.
In contrast, out of my peers who were equally good students in high school, I have friends who went to well-respected programs that are not Ivy League and did really well right out of college. For example, a friend went to Northeastern because of their co-op program, graduated with a ton of work experience, and got a good-paying job in his field right out of college. Another one of my friends went to a state school (I think he got a scholarship too) with a good engineering program and is doing great too.
posted by Squalor Victoria at 7:43 AM on May 7, 2017
Lately they've been talking about how much they hate themselves and how worthless they are because they're not getting 100s in all their classes and it's breaking my heart to see these wonderful kids so crushed.
that'll happen. if you are told and if all the evidence agrees that you have enormous potential, there really is only complete success and abject failure -- there's no such concept as trying your best and being happy with a just-ok result, because if you're so smart, and you really were trying your best, you would have gotten a perfect score. So what's wrong with you? are you not really so smart, or did you not really try? never mind the real-world consequences of college admissions. it sucks. and being told that it's ok to be imperfect is not usually received in the spirit it's intended. better, I think, to uncouple the identification of success/perfection with the Ivy League. because really, even if you require prestige and status markers from your college (and I understand their parents have real reason to think their daughters need an above-average resume to be on solid footing), you can do better or just as good at a huge number of other places.
If you are able to influence their parents at all: teaching your kids that they only way they can succeed and thrive is if they attain the incredible privilege of a specific top-top-tier fancypants college choice is telling them that they are intensely fragile and have no capacity for success through ingenuity and strategy and hard work, like the rest of everybody else who goes to college everywhere else, if at all. it reinforces the idea that your parents want what's best for you, sure, but it undermines the idea that your parents believe in you. a person who cannot achieve without a Harvard degree is a person upon whom a Harvard education is wasted.
If I were friends with their parents, I would warn them that if they sustain the pressure this hard for the next three years, they are going to end up with one if not two daughters fucking off to Hampshire or Evergreen or someplace where they can smoke weed and design nonsense majors and not get letter grades all day long. Which would probably be great for them, but might scare their parents just enough to ease up a little bit.
posted by queenofbithynia at 3:43 PM on May 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
that'll happen. if you are told and if all the evidence agrees that you have enormous potential, there really is only complete success and abject failure -- there's no such concept as trying your best and being happy with a just-ok result, because if you're so smart, and you really were trying your best, you would have gotten a perfect score. So what's wrong with you? are you not really so smart, or did you not really try? never mind the real-world consequences of college admissions. it sucks. and being told that it's ok to be imperfect is not usually received in the spirit it's intended. better, I think, to uncouple the identification of success/perfection with the Ivy League. because really, even if you require prestige and status markers from your college (and I understand their parents have real reason to think their daughters need an above-average resume to be on solid footing), you can do better or just as good at a huge number of other places.
If you are able to influence their parents at all: teaching your kids that they only way they can succeed and thrive is if they attain the incredible privilege of a specific top-top-tier fancypants college choice is telling them that they are intensely fragile and have no capacity for success through ingenuity and strategy and hard work, like the rest of everybody else who goes to college everywhere else, if at all. it reinforces the idea that your parents want what's best for you, sure, but it undermines the idea that your parents believe in you. a person who cannot achieve without a Harvard degree is a person upon whom a Harvard education is wasted.
If I were friends with their parents, I would warn them that if they sustain the pressure this hard for the next three years, they are going to end up with one if not two daughters fucking off to Hampshire or Evergreen or someplace where they can smoke weed and design nonsense majors and not get letter grades all day long. Which would probably be great for them, but might scare their parents just enough to ease up a little bit.
posted by queenofbithynia at 3:43 PM on May 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
They will most likely get into at least one Ivy. Then they'll feel better.
Then they'll go, and learn what it feels like to be mediocre in a sea of high performers, and it's likely to end just fine unless they otherwise struggle with depression or anxiety, in which case treatment is appropriate.
Going to a very good school has a lot of baggage around it, but it has a lot of benefits, too. I understand why kids want to go, and it's not always bad for kids to want a thing and work hard for it. It can be taken too far, but I remember stressing about plenty of insanely stupid things as a teen, and I turned out OK.
If they don't get in, college is still exciting and they'll probably get over it.
posted by stoneandstar at 10:49 PM on May 11, 2017
Then they'll go, and learn what it feels like to be mediocre in a sea of high performers, and it's likely to end just fine unless they otherwise struggle with depression or anxiety, in which case treatment is appropriate.
Going to a very good school has a lot of baggage around it, but it has a lot of benefits, too. I understand why kids want to go, and it's not always bad for kids to want a thing and work hard for it. It can be taken too far, but I remember stressing about plenty of insanely stupid things as a teen, and I turned out OK.
If they don't get in, college is still exciting and they'll probably get over it.
posted by stoneandstar at 10:49 PM on May 11, 2017
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What helps is a reality check. Kids are killing themselves over this type of bullsh*t parental pressure. So the parents need to either accept they may be responsible for their kid attempting suicide, or they can pretend, "Not MY kids."
posted by yes I said yes I will Yes at 8:16 AM on May 5, 2017 [9 favorites]