My, how you've grown!
December 19, 2016 5:26 AM Subscribe
Can you help me think of examples of this longstanding creepy trope? The trope is when a man saves/helps/knows a girl in her youth, and has a paternal relationship to her if any.
Then he leaves (presumably to go on adventures) and he returns to the girl, who is: omg a *woman* now.
And they get together and it's not creepy at all (by the movie's standards).
My husband and I watched two movies back-to-back with this trope: the first was Sin City, when Hardigan saves "Skinny little Nancy" who grows up to have the "daddy issues" (referred to in the movie) necessary to become a stripper. When Hardigan returns, she tries to give herself to him and he resists... until he doesn't, and gives into her kiss. But it's "okay" because she's 19 now.
Second example was in Legends of the Fall, when Tristan leaves home (and the young Isabel), returns after having his adventures, and marries Isabel, who has now grown into a beautiful woman.
Typically with this trope, it is the man that changes... the girl remains (essentially) a girl, except with +1 sexuality for having grown into a woman. She also magically keeps her "innocence" so that the returning hero can have that too. Can you think of other examples?
My husband and I watched two movies back-to-back with this trope: the first was Sin City, when Hardigan saves "Skinny little Nancy" who grows up to have the "daddy issues" (referred to in the movie) necessary to become a stripper. When Hardigan returns, she tries to give herself to him and he resists... until he doesn't, and gives into her kiss. But it's "okay" because she's 19 now.
Second example was in Legends of the Fall, when Tristan leaves home (and the young Isabel), returns after having his adventures, and marries Isabel, who has now grown into a beautiful woman.
Typically with this trope, it is the man that changes... the girl remains (essentially) a girl, except with +1 sexuality for having grown into a woman. She also magically keeps her "innocence" so that the returning hero can have that too. Can you think of other examples?
Daddy Long-Legs?
posted by chesty_a_arthur at 5:32 AM on December 19, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by chesty_a_arthur at 5:32 AM on December 19, 2016 [8 favorites]
My first thought was Sabrina with Audrey Hepburn (although it's her character that leaves and comes back, otherwise the trope is the same.) And for a darker twist, Sweeney Todd features a small bit of this, but twisted, because it's Sweeney Todd.
posted by jbenben at 5:34 AM on December 19, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by jbenben at 5:34 AM on December 19, 2016 [7 favorites]
A classic example: Gigi. With the bonus creepiness of Maurice Chevalier singing "Thank Heaven for Little Girls."
posted by deeparch at 5:43 AM on December 19, 2016 [15 favorites]
posted by deeparch at 5:43 AM on December 19, 2016 [15 favorites]
The Thorn Birds.
posted by Melismata at 5:45 AM on December 19, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by Melismata at 5:45 AM on December 19, 2016 [7 favorites]
Also came to say Sabrina. There's a remake that isn't terrible because it has Julia Ormond in the title role against Harrison Ford as Bogart and Greg Kinnear as Bill Holden. It was an utterly unnecessary film but it's not the atrocity you might expect, and also Julia Ormond.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 5:52 AM on December 19, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 5:52 AM on December 19, 2016 [3 favorites]
It happens in It's a Wonderful Life
posted by flourpot at 5:54 AM on December 19, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by flourpot at 5:54 AM on December 19, 2016 [2 favorites]
This happens in the Emily of New Moon series by L.M. Montgomery.
posted by Ruki at 5:57 AM on December 19, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by Ruki at 5:57 AM on December 19, 2016 [8 favorites]
This was also clumsily reversed in Star Wars Episode II, when Anakin (who has aged from an annoying pre-teen to an annoying 20something between films) meets Padme Amidala (who has not visibly aged a day) again for the first time in 10 years, and she remarks: "Ani! My, how you've grown!" To which Anakin responds by mumbling the deathless line: "So have you! *flopsweat* Err...grown more beautiful, I mean."
posted by Strange Interlude at 6:08 AM on December 19, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by Strange Interlude at 6:08 AM on December 19, 2016 [10 favorites]
The Lion King?
posted by Cygnet at 6:14 AM on December 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Cygnet at 6:14 AM on December 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
Steven Moffat (longtime writer and current but blessedly leaving soon showrunner of Doctor Who) loves this trope. It makes its first appearance in the Tenth Doctor episode The Girl in the Fireplace, reappears in the backstory behind the recurring character River Song first introudced in Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead, comes back again in The Eleventh Hour (though kiiiind of gets defused over the course of the rest of the season), and it pops up occasionally here and there throughout the Eleventh and Twelfth Doctors.
Basically, for Steven Moffat the primary benefit of time travel seems to be meeting little girls and then travelling forward in their time lines to meet them again as sexy women.
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:16 AM on December 19, 2016 [24 favorites]
Basically, for Steven Moffat the primary benefit of time travel seems to be meeting little girls and then travelling forward in their time lines to meet them again as sexy women.
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:16 AM on December 19, 2016 [24 favorites]
There's a reverse of this in the Star Wars prequels. Anakin grows up between episodes 1 and 2 while Padme seems more or less the same age?
posted by tofu_crouton at 6:20 AM on December 19, 2016
posted by tofu_crouton at 6:20 AM on December 19, 2016
Something close happens in several of Jane Austen's novels, though maybe it's just because her characters tend to marry within a small circle. See Emma, Mansfield Park, Persuasion.
posted by SemiSalt at 6:42 AM on December 19, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by SemiSalt at 6:42 AM on December 19, 2016 [2 favorites]
It happens in It's a Wonderful Life
Not really. A slightly younger girl is attracted to a slightly older boy, but both are of roughly the same social group/group of siblings. They get married when both are older. George Bailey is never a father figure or anything, and only makes a comment about Mary being all grown up because he didn't pay much attention to her as a kid.
posted by OmieWise at 6:48 AM on December 19, 2016 [21 favorites]
Not really. A slightly younger girl is attracted to a slightly older boy, but both are of roughly the same social group/group of siblings. They get married when both are older. George Bailey is never a father figure or anything, and only makes a comment about Mary being all grown up because he didn't pay much attention to her as a kid.
posted by OmieWise at 6:48 AM on December 19, 2016 [21 favorites]
Rebecca of Sunnybrook Farm by Kate Douglass Wiggin.
Mr A. Ladd meets Rebecca when she's 14 and then basically waits for her to grow up so he can marry her.
Also 'The Education of Betty' - a short story by L. M. Montgomery. This one is particularly gross because the man quite literally takes over 'the education' and raising of 11-year old Betty when her father dies (said father was his romantic rival for the hand of Betty's mother). Betty goes away to boarding school for a year at the age of 16, and when she returns, boom he's in love with her. I don't think I realized how awful this whole thing was until I typed it out just now.
posted by and her eyes were wild. at 7:05 AM on December 19, 2016 [4 favorites]
Mr A. Ladd meets Rebecca when she's 14 and then basically waits for her to grow up so he can marry her.
Also 'The Education of Betty' - a short story by L. M. Montgomery. This one is particularly gross because the man quite literally takes over 'the education' and raising of 11-year old Betty when her father dies (said father was his romantic rival for the hand of Betty's mother). Betty goes away to boarding school for a year at the age of 16, and when she returns, boom he's in love with her. I don't think I realized how awful this whole thing was until I typed it out just now.
posted by and her eyes were wild. at 7:05 AM on December 19, 2016 [4 favorites]
The Lion King?
I was going to say what??! until I remembered that it could apply to the stage version, where Scar explicitly intends to take Nala as his bride, which is what prompts Nala to leave the Pride Lands. I don't get that out of the film, though, even on a subtextual level.
Also in the stage version it's something that Nala clearly doesn't want, and does come across as creepy, at least to me.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 7:10 AM on December 19, 2016 [2 favorites]
I was going to say what??! until I remembered that it could apply to the stage version, where Scar explicitly intends to take Nala as his bride, which is what prompts Nala to leave the Pride Lands. I don't get that out of the film, though, even on a subtextual level.
Also in the stage version it's something that Nala clearly doesn't want, and does come across as creepy, at least to me.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 7:10 AM on December 19, 2016 [2 favorites]
I think you can find a reverse on this with Padme and Anakin - and it's still creepy!
posted by Mchelly at 7:11 AM on December 19, 2016
posted by Mchelly at 7:11 AM on December 19, 2016
Someone already mentioned this, but I have to reiterate LM Montgomery's Emily of New Moon because it is so very much what you are describing that I initially thought you had this series in mind. The guy in question is called Dean Priest, a disabled, middle-aged, and "queer" (as in socially awkward/odd) bachelor who saves Emily--a highly sensitive and literary orphan--from falling off a cliff when she's around 13 or 14. He tells her something like, "Your life now belongs to me." She grows up, suffers a creative and romantic disappointment, and he returns to her when she's at her most vulnerable and insistently courts her. They end up becoming engaged despite her evident unhappiness at the liaison and the resistance of her family. Even as a child who took most of the grotesqueries of children's literature in stride, I was deeply unsettled by the character of Dean and his relationship with Emily.
posted by artisthatithaca at 7:20 AM on December 19, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by artisthatithaca at 7:20 AM on December 19, 2016 [7 favorites]
The Time Traveler's Wife, sort of.
posted by masquesoporfavor at 7:34 AM on December 19, 2016 [11 favorites]
posted by masquesoporfavor at 7:34 AM on December 19, 2016 [11 favorites]
The Paper Magician and sequels by Charlie Holmberg.
posted by papayaninja at 7:35 AM on December 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by papayaninja at 7:35 AM on December 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
This happened in Season 1 of True Detective. Marty takes a child prostitute away from a madam, then has an affair with her after she's become 20 or so.
posted by ignignokt at 7:45 AM on December 19, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by ignignokt at 7:45 AM on December 19, 2016 [3 favorites]
(I think the narrative is aware that it's very wrong in that case, but it still happens, and the portrayal is creepily salacious.)
posted by ignignokt at 7:46 AM on December 19, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by ignignokt at 7:46 AM on December 19, 2016 [3 favorites]
This was something like the premise of about half of the paperback romances of the 80s, it seemed like. The vixen of a ward and her stern guardian were Everywhere - here's a Good Reads list of the better, more modern (historical) ones.
posted by ldthomps at 7:49 AM on December 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by ldthomps at 7:49 AM on December 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
I think it managed to avoid being crass, but The Princess Bride kinda fits this trope.
posted by workerant at 7:50 AM on December 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by workerant at 7:50 AM on December 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
This one is particularly gross because the man quite literally takes over 'the education' and raising of 11-year old Betty when her father diesI don't know if the OP is looking for the case where the man planned it all along. You could say that Molière was already making fun of that plan in 1662.
posted by floppyroofing at 7:56 AM on December 19, 2016 [2 favorites]
Real life examples: Elvis and Priscilla Presley; Rene Angelil and Celine Dion; Sophia Loren and Carlo Ponti; Woody Allen and Soon-Yi Previn. There's also a famous author who met a young girl, decided she was "the one," waited for her to grow up, and ultimately married her, but I can think who it is.
posted by carmicha at 7:59 AM on December 19, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by carmicha at 7:59 AM on December 19, 2016 [6 favorites]
I think it managed to avoid being crass, but The Princess Bride kinda fits this trope.
How so? Buttercup and Westley are the same age.
posted by soren_lorensen at 8:03 AM on December 19, 2016 [12 favorites]
How so? Buttercup and Westley are the same age.
posted by soren_lorensen at 8:03 AM on December 19, 2016 [12 favorites]
Something close happens in several of Jane Austen's novels, though maybe it's just because her characters tend to marry within a small circle. See Emma, Mansfield Park, Persuasion.
I don't think these examples quite fit, except perhaps in the case of Emma. In Mansfield Park Edmund and Fanny are only 5 years apart, and meet when both are children. I'm not sure what relationship in Persuasion seems to fit this, but the relationship at the heart of the novel is delayed by disapprobation not by Anne needing to grow up.
In general, in addition to the small circle in Austen that you identify, the novels are also about a class where men who were honorable but otherwise unmoneyed had to make a fortune prior to being good marriage material. As a consequence (at least in part), there are older men marrying younger women, but those marriages would not have been possible prior to the making of the fortune.
posted by OmieWise at 8:04 AM on December 19, 2016 [2 favorites]
I don't think these examples quite fit, except perhaps in the case of Emma. In Mansfield Park Edmund and Fanny are only 5 years apart, and meet when both are children. I'm not sure what relationship in Persuasion seems to fit this, but the relationship at the heart of the novel is delayed by disapprobation not by Anne needing to grow up.
In general, in addition to the small circle in Austen that you identify, the novels are also about a class where men who were honorable but otherwise unmoneyed had to make a fortune prior to being good marriage material. As a consequence (at least in part), there are older men marrying younger women, but those marriages would not have been possible prior to the making of the fortune.
posted by OmieWise at 8:04 AM on December 19, 2016 [2 favorites]
I think the more relevant TV Tropes article is Wife Husbandry.
I also suspect that part of the reason it's a trope is because it's a common situation for minor or secondary characters in a bunch of Victorian and Edwardian lit. For example, in a lot of P.G. Wodehose's stories, the plot revolves around a young woman trying to get out of a semi-arranged marriage with an older man who is a friend of her parents. Usually because she's fallen in love with someone her own age. Often this older man has known the girl since her birth, and has spent a lot of time overseas with the military or government or business interests in one or more of the British colonies. But the actual main character (Bertie Wooster, say), isn't involved in this kind of of relationship, except insofar as he gets roped into some hare-brained scheme to get the woman out of her betrothal.
posted by soundguy99 at 8:05 AM on December 19, 2016 [2 favorites]
I also suspect that part of the reason it's a trope is because it's a common situation for minor or secondary characters in a bunch of Victorian and Edwardian lit. For example, in a lot of P.G. Wodehose's stories, the plot revolves around a young woman trying to get out of a semi-arranged marriage with an older man who is a friend of her parents. Usually because she's fallen in love with someone her own age. Often this older man has known the girl since her birth, and has spent a lot of time overseas with the military or government or business interests in one or more of the British colonies. But the actual main character (Bertie Wooster, say), isn't involved in this kind of of relationship, except insofar as he gets roped into some hare-brained scheme to get the woman out of her betrothal.
posted by soundguy99 at 8:05 AM on December 19, 2016 [2 favorites]
Oh boy, probably my favorite one is from Mildred Pierce. You get one version of the story in the Joan Crawford movie and another even grosser one (the original book one) in the miniseries with Kate Winslet. Both are excellent and I heartily recommend them.
Spoilers: Mildred has a spoiled brat daughter, Veda, who she tries to please through ever more desperate means, including marrying a lapsed millionaire guy, Monty, for the lifestyle. Monty is Veda's stepdad for a while, then he and Mildred separate, then Veda gets all mad because millionaire, so Mildred and Monty get back together, but by then Veda has grown up a bit and starts hooking up with Monty behind mom's back.
SO GOOD.
posted by phunniemee at 8:12 AM on December 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
Spoilers: Mildred has a spoiled brat daughter, Veda, who she tries to please through ever more desperate means, including marrying a lapsed millionaire guy, Monty, for the lifestyle. Monty is Veda's stepdad for a while, then he and Mildred separate, then Veda gets all mad because millionaire, so Mildred and Monty get back together, but by then Veda has grown up a bit and starts hooking up with Monty behind mom's back.
SO GOOD.
posted by phunniemee at 8:12 AM on December 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
Doesn't fit the "he goes away and has adventures" part, but Monica dating the much older Richard, who knew her as a child, on Friends?
posted by aka burlap at 8:18 AM on December 19, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by aka burlap at 8:18 AM on December 19, 2016 [10 favorites]
Which is to say, kind of bouncing off OmieWise's answer, I think there was a long period where the cultural expectation among the upper and upper-middle class was for the man to make his fortune before marriage, which led to a lot of May-December marriages, which in turn led to a lot of writers of the era examining these expectations. So even if the main characters aren't in this kind of situation, or are even actively defying it, the stories still take place in an environment where "My, how you've grown" is the norm, which may be why it feels like a trope even without a ton of examples where it's the main plot.
posted by soundguy99 at 8:20 AM on December 19, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by soundguy99 at 8:20 AM on December 19, 2016 [3 favorites]
Two movies that might fit, in that the older guys see themselves as defenders/protectors of the young girls:
Taxi Driver with Robert De Niro as cab-driving Travis and Jodie Foster as the nymphet-prostitute Iris;
Pretty Baby with Brooke Shields as a 12-year-old raised in a brothel and Keith Carradine as photographer Bellocq who marries her to 'save' her.
As for books, there's
Caravan by Dorothy Gilman, where a 40-ish anthropologist convinces 16-year-old Caressa to marry him; and
the Evan Tanner series by Lawrence Block, where early in the series (in Tanner and the Twelve Swingers) the Tanner character rescues & informally adopts a six-year old, but in the last book in the series (Tanner on Ice) after Tanner has been cryogenically frozen for 25 years he returns to start an affair with her --- she says she's "waited" for him all those years.
posted by easily confused at 8:26 AM on December 19, 2016
Taxi Driver with Robert De Niro as cab-driving Travis and Jodie Foster as the nymphet-prostitute Iris;
Pretty Baby with Brooke Shields as a 12-year-old raised in a brothel and Keith Carradine as photographer Bellocq who marries her to 'save' her.
As for books, there's
Caravan by Dorothy Gilman, where a 40-ish anthropologist convinces 16-year-old Caressa to marry him; and
the Evan Tanner series by Lawrence Block, where early in the series (in Tanner and the Twelve Swingers) the Tanner character rescues & informally adopts a six-year old, but in the last book in the series (Tanner on Ice) after Tanner has been cryogenically frozen for 25 years he returns to start an affair with her --- she says she's "waited" for him all those years.
posted by easily confused at 8:26 AM on December 19, 2016
I also came to mention Friends. I've always wondered if this was "an issue" at the time because the whole thing seems so creepy. (Most of what I know of that awful show is through reruns. My kids were born in '89 and '92, which was followed by the usual ~decade-long blackout re adult-related popular culture.)
I suppose this trope isn't all that surprising, given that characters a generation apart in age end up in relationships without either of them even mentioning the age difference. I once briefly dated someone 12 years younger than me and was amazed at the differences in cultural references—and I was in my early 50s at the time!
posted by she's not there at 8:39 AM on December 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
I suppose this trope isn't all that surprising, given that characters a generation apart in age end up in relationships without either of them even mentioning the age difference. I once briefly dated someone 12 years younger than me and was amazed at the differences in cultural references—and I was in my early 50s at the time!
posted by she's not there at 8:39 AM on December 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
It didn't seem creepy at the time, probably because I'm about the same age as Monica, Tom Selleck is hot as coffee, and I've had a crush on Magnum PImsince I was 8.
posted by bq at 8:47 AM on December 19, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by bq at 8:47 AM on December 19, 2016 [5 favorites]
I also came to mention Friends. I've always wondered if this was "an issue" at the time because the whole thing seems so creepy. (Most of what I know of that awful show is through reruns. My kids were born in '89 and '92, which was followed by the usual ~decade-long blackout re adult-related popular culture.)
It's not treated as creepy exactly (at least, Tom Selleck's character is not treated as a creep) but the age difference is mentioned *a lot* and is the source of most of the jokes around the relationship and they ultimately break up because they're in such different life stages.
posted by armadillo1224 at 8:56 AM on December 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
It's not treated as creepy exactly (at least, Tom Selleck's character is not treated as a creep) but the age difference is mentioned *a lot* and is the source of most of the jokes around the relationship and they ultimately break up because they're in such different life stages.
posted by armadillo1224 at 8:56 AM on December 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
It's not exactly that trope, but the graduation dance scene in It's A Wonderful Life is kind of close; it's all "hey go dance with my kid sister, would you?", and George agrees, and even though he's apparently been seeing Mary nearly every day it's only then, in that context, the he sees her as a young woman.
See here.
(Also fun: the annoying would-be suitor to Mary? Played by the actor who was also Alfalfa.)
posted by uberchet at 9:04 AM on December 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
See here.
(Also fun: the annoying would-be suitor to Mary? Played by the actor who was also Alfalfa.)
posted by uberchet at 9:04 AM on December 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
In "The Dresden Files" series of books, Harry (the adult protagonist and narrator) first meets Molly (daughter of a friend) when she's a pre-teen; as she ages through her late teens over the course of the series and becomes Harry's apprentice he repeatedly tells us how sexy she's becoming, but of course he'd never do anything because he's known her since "before she was in a training bra". (Seriously, a lot of the narrator's references to knowing her when she was young use a "training bra" as a milestone. I honestly hope the author is being deliberately creepy to make a point, but it doesn't read that way to me.)
Up to the latest book I don't think anything has happend between them other than lots of sexual tension, but the constant "I'm so noble, not accepting the advances of this sexy, decades-younger women who's been in love with me since she was 10" angst seems like it counts for the trope.
posted by metaBugs at 9:07 AM on December 19, 2016 [4 favorites]
Up to the latest book I don't think anything has happend between them other than lots of sexual tension, but the constant "I'm so noble, not accepting the advances of this sexy, decades-younger women who's been in love with me since she was 10" angst seems like it counts for the trope.
posted by metaBugs at 9:07 AM on December 19, 2016 [4 favorites]
Memoirs of a Geisha has the main character, Sayuri, meeting the much older Chairman as a child when he consoles her and gives her his handkerchief and some coins after he finds her crying in the street. The next time they meet, she's an apprentice geisha.
Also, it's suuuuper creepy but in Twilight, apparently one of the main characters (Jacob) "imprints" on the baby of the other two main characters, and it's pretty much stated that he'll be her lover once she's old enough. Uggh.
posted by castlebravo at 9:08 AM on December 19, 2016 [9 favorites]
Also, it's suuuuper creepy but in Twilight, apparently one of the main characters (Jacob) "imprints" on the baby of the other two main characters, and it's pretty much stated that he'll be her lover once she's old enough. Uggh.
posted by castlebravo at 9:08 AM on December 19, 2016 [9 favorites]
Portrait of Jennie is about exactly this.
posted by Polychrome at 9:48 AM on December 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Polychrome at 9:48 AM on December 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
(It's in the TV Tropes page, but it's such a classic that it's worth repeating) Tale of Genji by Lady Murasaki, written in the 11th century in Japan. My SO read it in the original Classical Japanese/Konbun (and then described all the outrageous parts) and from what I remember, Genji (son of the Emperor, who is not in the line of inheritance) falls in love with one of his fathers concubines who is essentially his step-mother. He doesn't manage to sleep with her and in a fit of self-pity removes himself to the countryside where he spies a beautiful 10 year old girl, the niece of said step-mother. He raises her to be his perfect companion (not bride, he is already married by this point in time). So it's not even a "You're so grown up now" it's "You will grow up to be perfect." It's a classic of Japanese literature and no worse than most other classics from a millennia or two ago, but my god, that part is creepy.
posted by Hactar at 10:26 AM on December 19, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Hactar at 10:26 AM on December 19, 2016 [2 favorites]
Ugh, this trope is what soured the end of The Count of Monte Cristo for me.
Though looking thru Wikipedia, it sounds like there were multiple versions, some of which did not introduce the character of Haydee, the slave Dantes raises from childhood and eventually marries.
posted by sapere aude at 10:30 AM on December 19, 2016 [3 favorites]
Though looking thru Wikipedia, it sounds like there were multiple versions, some of which did not introduce the character of Haydee, the slave Dantes raises from childhood and eventually marries.
posted by sapere aude at 10:30 AM on December 19, 2016 [3 favorites]
Re-watching Radiers of the Lost Ark recently creeped me the heck out along these lines. Indy's relationship with Marion felt wrong on so many levels.
posted by egypturnash at 11:09 AM on December 19, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by egypturnash at 11:09 AM on December 19, 2016 [3 favorites]
Memoirs of a Geisha was the first thing I thought of so I'm glad it was brought up already. I saw it with two (female) friends and I (male) definitely was creeped out by it. Didn't just seem to be portraying it but was endorsing it too. I'm pretty sure I was more bothered than my friends, if I remember correctly.
posted by Green With You at 11:11 AM on December 19, 2016
posted by Green With You at 11:11 AM on December 19, 2016
In history, Grover Cleveland:
Cleveland entered the White House as a bachelor and left a married man and father of two. His new wife was a beautiful young woman 27 years his junior named Frances Folsom. Frances was the daughter of a former law partner and Cleveland’s legal ward; Cleveland had literally known her since she was born. When she was 11, Frances’ father died and Cleveland became her legal guardian, remaining close friends with her mother.posted by readery at 11:15 AM on December 19, 2016 [3 favorites]
Re-watching Radiers of the Lost Ark recently creeped me the heck out along these lines. Indy's relationship with Marion felt wrong on so many levels.
The worst part of this is that Lucas was really into the idea that she was as young as eleven when Indy "had an affair" with her. He was willing to concede that maybe it was okay if she was as old as fifteen, but that if she was older than sixteen it wouldn't be "interesting" any more.
posted by northernish at 11:15 AM on December 19, 2016 [4 favorites]
The worst part of this is that Lucas was really into the idea that she was as young as eleven when Indy "had an affair" with her. He was willing to concede that maybe it was okay if she was as old as fifteen, but that if she was older than sixteen it wouldn't be "interesting" any more.
posted by northernish at 11:15 AM on December 19, 2016 [4 favorites]
The worst part of this is that Lucas was really into the idea that she was as young as eleven when Indy "had an affair" with her. He was willing to concede that maybe it was okay if she was as old as fifteen, but that if she was older than sixteen it wouldn't be "interesting" any more.
I don't doubt you at all, but do you have a cite for that. I'd like to read more about it because it sounds all kind of f*ed up.
posted by OmieWise at 11:25 AM on December 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
I don't doubt you at all, but do you have a cite for that. I'd like to read more about it because it sounds all kind of f*ed up.
posted by OmieWise at 11:25 AM on December 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
Kind of an odd formulation, even compared to the time-travelling mentioned elsewhere, but in Vernor Vinge's "A Deepness in the Sky," one of the settings is a human interstellar trading vessel of the trading group Qeng Ho. Being a sublight interstellar vessel, the crew members will alternate between long periods of cryogenic sleep (in which they do not age) and being awake top operate and maintain the ship. One character, a youngish man, was acquainted with an adolescent girl whom he regarded with brotherly affection, though it was evident that she was crushing on him. Over the decades of travel between stars, she requested more frequent and longer duties so she could age up closer to his own age. When he awoke to find her grown into mature womanhood, eventually came to see her as she'd hoped he would.
Well, it's been a while, but that's how I remember it. IIRC it was posed more as "man stops failing to see what's right in front of him because of preconceived ideas."
posted by Sunburnt at 11:35 AM on December 19, 2016
Well, it's been a while, but that's how I remember it. IIRC it was posed more as "man stops failing to see what's right in front of him because of preconceived ideas."
posted by Sunburnt at 11:35 AM on December 19, 2016
I don't doubt you at all, but do you have a cite for that. I'd like to read more about it because it sounds all kind of f*ed up.
There's a transcript of the story conferences between George Lucas (G), Steven Spielberg (S), and Larry Kasdan (L) from 1978. The excerpt I was thinking of:
G — I was thinking that this old guy could have been his mentor. He could have known this little girl when she was just a kid. Had an affair with her when she was eleven.
L — And he was forty-two.
G — He hasn't seen her in twelve years. Now she's twenty-two. It's a real strange relationship.
S — She had better be older than twenty-two.
G — He's thirty-five, and he knew her ten years ago when he was twenty-five and she was only twelve. It would be amusing to make her slightly young at the time.
S — And promiscuous. She came onto him.
G — Fifteen is right on the edge. I know it's an outrageous idea, but it is interesting. Once she's sixteen or seventeen it's not interesting anymore.
posted by northernish at 11:42 AM on December 19, 2016 [13 favorites]
There's a transcript of the story conferences between George Lucas (G), Steven Spielberg (S), and Larry Kasdan (L) from 1978. The excerpt I was thinking of:
G — I was thinking that this old guy could have been his mentor. He could have known this little girl when she was just a kid. Had an affair with her when she was eleven.
L — And he was forty-two.
G — He hasn't seen her in twelve years. Now she's twenty-two. It's a real strange relationship.
S — She had better be older than twenty-two.
G — He's thirty-five, and he knew her ten years ago when he was twenty-five and she was only twelve. It would be amusing to make her slightly young at the time.
S — And promiscuous. She came onto him.
G — Fifteen is right on the edge. I know it's an outrageous idea, but it is interesting. Once she's sixteen or seventeen it's not interesting anymore.
posted by northernish at 11:42 AM on December 19, 2016 [13 favorites]
Kinda subverted in Beautiful Girls, where the late twenties Timothy Hutton is fantasising about waiting 5 years for 13 year old Natalie Portman (who has a crush on him) to grow up. Thankfully he comes to his senses, although he doesn't ever seem to acknowledge just how creepy he's being.
And dear god that George Lucas transcript is just, ugh.
posted by arha at 11:53 AM on December 19, 2016
And dear god that George Lucas transcript is just, ugh.
posted by arha at 11:53 AM on December 19, 2016
Once she's sixteen or seventeen it's not interesting anymore.
OH GEORGE LUCAS NO.
posted by Strange Interlude at 12:03 PM on December 19, 2016 [26 favorites]
OH GEORGE LUCAS NO.
posted by Strange Interlude at 12:03 PM on December 19, 2016 [26 favorites]
In The Time Traveler's Wife, the protagonist is unable to control his time travel, and he pops up in his love interest's timeline while she's a child (several times, I think). But he already knew her as an adult, I think, so it's less creepy? Anyway, it's a variation on this.
posted by cabingirl at 12:05 PM on December 19, 2016
posted by cabingirl at 12:05 PM on December 19, 2016
Luckily, someone with some sense must have intervened in the Raiders casting; Karen Allen and Harrison Ford were 30 and 39 when it came out in 1981.
posted by sapere aude at 12:10 PM on December 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by sapere aude at 12:10 PM on December 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Once she's sixteen or seventeen it's not interesting anymore.
I think I threw up in my mouth a little.
I'm queasy seeing the wish-fulfillment acrobatics to make this palatable: of course she's a "promiscuous" child, too. Vomit.
posted by Dressed to Kill at 12:12 PM on December 19, 2016 [12 favorites]
I think I threw up in my mouth a little.
I'm queasy seeing the wish-fulfillment acrobatics to make this palatable: of course she's a "promiscuous" child, too. Vomit.
posted by Dressed to Kill at 12:12 PM on December 19, 2016 [12 favorites]
In The Chronicles of Riddick, Riddick ends up in the same prison as Jack, the [MILD SPOILER ALERT] 14-year old tomboy who was one of the only other survivors from Pitch Black.
It was pretty jarring to me that apparently hitting puberty, getting thrown in the clink and getting all "dangerous", and growing her hair out was all it took for bratty little Jack, who was passing as male for like 80% of Pitch Black and who hero-worshiped Riddick, to get "upgraded" to Kyra the super-foxy damsel in distress in The Chronicles of Riddick, which only took place about five years later in movie-verse time.
Pitch Black is one of my favorite movies, so I was ESPECIALLY disappointed by how much they played up the sexual tension between these two in The Chronicles of Riddick. Although, to the film's credit (but not really), I don't believe any of their sexy banter went beyond flirty words and some touchy feelies. Still. Ick.
posted by helloimjennsco at 12:29 PM on December 19, 2016 [2 favorites]
It was pretty jarring to me that apparently hitting puberty, getting thrown in the clink and getting all "dangerous", and growing her hair out was all it took for bratty little Jack, who was passing as male for like 80% of Pitch Black and who hero-worshiped Riddick, to get "upgraded" to Kyra the super-foxy damsel in distress in The Chronicles of Riddick, which only took place about five years later in movie-verse time.
Pitch Black is one of my favorite movies, so I was ESPECIALLY disappointed by how much they played up the sexual tension between these two in The Chronicles of Riddick. Although, to the film's credit (but not really), I don't believe any of their sexy banter went beyond flirty words and some touchy feelies. Still. Ick.
posted by helloimjennsco at 12:29 PM on December 19, 2016 [2 favorites]
Celine Dion and Rene Angelil.
Laura Ingalls and Almanzo "Manly" Wilder.
Man, that George Lucas story is super gross.
posted by ApathyGirl at 12:32 PM on December 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
Laura Ingalls and Almanzo "Manly" Wilder.
Man, that George Lucas story is super gross.
posted by ApathyGirl at 12:32 PM on December 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
Pitch Black is one of my favorite movies, so I was ESPECIALLY disappointed by how much they played up the sexual tension between these two in The Chronicles of Riddick.
Meaning this only in a "Huh, people can be different" way, I read their relationship as extremely paternal/filial. Like, he is practically I AM DISAPPOINT at her.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 1:31 PM on December 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
Meaning this only in a "Huh, people can be different" way, I read their relationship as extremely paternal/filial. Like, he is practically I AM DISAPPOINT at her.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 1:31 PM on December 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
Also not quite it but Time for the Stars by Robert Heinlein has a guy go to space, for decades, and he ages considerably. He maintains communication with his relatives, some of whom die and some of whom are born while he's gone. He comes back eventually and marries his psychically linked connection, who is also his great grand niece so it's extra creepy.
posted by masquesoporfavor at 1:48 PM on December 19, 2016
posted by masquesoporfavor at 1:48 PM on December 19, 2016
As stated above, Emma is the only one of Austen's novels that sort of fits this trope, (although because of the times, there's a lot of older men marrying much younger women in Austen's novels, Colonel Brandon is like 37 when he marries 17 year old Marianne in Sense & Sensibility, Wickham in his mid 20's marrying 15 year old Lydia in P&P, etc.). In Emma, Knightley is 37 and Emma about 22 when they marry at the end of the novel, and he has known her since she was an infant. Moreover, he's definitely taken on a father/big brother role towards her (and is almost literally her brother, by the standards of the time, by virtue of the fact that his brother is married to her sister), with his constant policing of her behavior, and scolding her when she does wrong. The novel seems to indicate that he never really thought of her as a romantic partner until Frank Churchill shows up and makes him jealous by appearing to court her. The only way it doesn't fit the trope is in that Knightley never goes away, which may make it more or less creepy depending on your point of view. I actually really love Emma as a novel, and I love the many adaptations of it as well, but there's no denying that by modern standards it's kind of icky in some ways.
posted by katyggls at 2:06 PM on December 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by katyggls at 2:06 PM on December 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
Simply a case of creepy old dude with inappropriately-young partners: Hugh Hefner. Married wife #2 (Kimberly Conrad) in 1989 when he was 62 and she was 27; married wife #3 (Crystal Harris) in 2012 when he was 86 and she was 26, although they'd been dating since 2008 when he was 82 to her 22.
His four kids, by the way, were born in 1952, 1955, 1990, and 1991, so wife #3 is 34 years younger than her oldest 'stepchild' and just five years older than the youngest. Icky.
posted by easily confused at 2:08 PM on December 19, 2016
His four kids, by the way, were born in 1952, 1955, 1990, and 1991, so wife #3 is 34 years younger than her oldest 'stepchild' and just five years older than the youngest. Icky.
posted by easily confused at 2:08 PM on December 19, 2016
The Time Traveler's Wife does the opposite of this, where he first meets her as an adult before bouncing in and out of her timeline, but she experiences a linear series of visits starting at age 5-6 and continuing throughout her life. Sometime in early teenagerhood she gets out of him that in the future they are married, and from then on counts down to her 18th (maybe even 16th? It's been years) birthday so she can sleep with him.
posted by Flannery Culp at 2:39 PM on December 19, 2016
posted by Flannery Culp at 2:39 PM on December 19, 2016
Ted Nugent
posted by The Vice Admiral of the Narrow Seas at 2:40 PM on December 19, 2016
posted by The Vice Admiral of the Narrow Seas at 2:40 PM on December 19, 2016
As a kid I read Where The Lilies Bloom, about a young girl in Appalachia trying to keep her family together after their father dies. During the course of the novel, the protagonist's teenaged elder sister marries the (middle aged, at least) landlord, who has known all of the children their entire lives.
This seemed especially creepy to me because the book clearly takes place in a semi-contemporary American context (the kids have to evade social workers out of fear of ending up in foster homes, at some point another character ends up in the hospital after being hit by a truck, etc). It's not a case like that of Emma where there's an argument to be made that this was just a thing that happened sometimes because of how society worked.
posted by Sara C. at 2:52 PM on December 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
This seemed especially creepy to me because the book clearly takes place in a semi-contemporary American context (the kids have to evade social workers out of fear of ending up in foster homes, at some point another character ends up in the hospital after being hit by a truck, etc). It's not a case like that of Emma where there's an argument to be made that this was just a thing that happened sometimes because of how society worked.
posted by Sara C. at 2:52 PM on December 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
I am embarrassed to admit this, and i waited all day for someone else to post about it, but 1984's Michael Caine vehicle called "Blame it on Rio" was an egregious example. Bonus: it included a young Demi Moore, if I remember right.
There are some really creepy scenes where Caine and the young daughter of his business partner or best friend or something are talking about how he has known her her whole life, and she has had a crush since she was little.
I feel icky brining it up, honestly.
posted by Ecgtheow at 3:27 PM on December 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
There are some really creepy scenes where Caine and the young daughter of his business partner or best friend or something are talking about how he has known her her whole life, and she has had a crush since she was little.
I feel icky brining it up, honestly.
posted by Ecgtheow at 3:27 PM on December 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
I think you need to watch the brilliant (and some times darkly violent) original 2003 Korean version of Old Boy.
posted by Dr Ew at 4:00 PM on December 19, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Dr Ew at 4:00 PM on December 19, 2016 [3 favorites]
Laura and Almanzo Wilder seem to fit this trope in real life as well as in the books. When they met, she is about 13 to his 23 -- she's walking to school with her little sister and comes across the Wilder brothers plowing their field or something. She thinks of him as "Pa's friend" and there are some lines about how surprised she is when he starts courting her, when she's 15 and he's 25.
posted by basalganglia at 4:26 PM on December 19, 2016
posted by basalganglia at 4:26 PM on December 19, 2016
In real life, David Garnett was there for the birth of Vanessa Bell's daughter Angelica, and said at the time that he intended to marry her someday. He did, in 1942 when he was 50 and she was 24. They had 4 daughters and separated in 1967.
posted by mmiddle at 4:56 PM on December 19, 2016
posted by mmiddle at 4:56 PM on December 19, 2016
In real life, David Garnett was there for the birth of Vanessa Bell's daughter Angelica, and said at the time that he intended to marry her someday.
Even creepier, Angelica Bell's biological father was Duncan Grant, whom David Garnett had also had a relationship with.
posted by northernish at 5:29 PM on December 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
Even creepier, Angelica Bell's biological father was Duncan Grant, whom David Garnett had also had a relationship with.
posted by northernish at 5:29 PM on December 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
Laura Ingalls and Almanzo Wilder does not fit this trope. She was younger than he but he was never a mentor or father figure to her. He never went away to come back and find her all grown up. OP is not just looking for age difference but that specific trope.
posted by ChristineSings at 6:55 PM on December 19, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by ChristineSings at 6:55 PM on December 19, 2016 [2 favorites]
Usagi Drop, a manga that was turned into an anime series. The anime is ADORABLE and so sweet, and its episodes only cover the first half of the story, when the main character is a child being raised by an adopted father. After watching it, I was curious about the manga and soooo unhappy to find out that the second half was just exactly this trope. Did not like.
posted by augustimagination at 8:39 PM on December 19, 2016
posted by augustimagination at 8:39 PM on December 19, 2016
I haven't read the story it was based on but this happens with the main character in The Wind Rises. IIRC it is mostly innocent -- he saves a girl in the beginning, then stuff happens, and she's womany wife later. but I do remember thinking, ah, yep, of *course* he couldn't just save her...
posted by cluebucket at 8:46 PM on December 19, 2016
posted by cluebucket at 8:46 PM on December 19, 2016
There are a number of older songs of this trope. For example look "Happy Birthday Sweet Sixteen" by Neil Sedaka - here with bonus creepy intro. "tonight's the night I've waited for, because you're not a baby any more".
posted by rongorongo at 1:24 AM on December 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by rongorongo at 1:24 AM on December 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
"Bleak House" follows the trope to the letter and then subverts it at the last minute: The father figure in question suddenly has a change of heart and "releases" the young lady in question from her engagement to him, so she can marry the person he realises she would prefer.
posted by emilyw at 3:40 AM on December 20, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by emilyw at 3:40 AM on December 20, 2016 [4 favorites]
This ruined the Mary Russell stories for me. They start with her as a teenager meeting Sherlock Holmes who has retired. The first novel is entirely him acting as a paternal mentor and friend.
In the next novel, they get married. WTH, Laurie King.
posted by jammy at 6:54 AM on December 20, 2016 [4 favorites]
In the next novel, they get married. WTH, Laurie King.
posted by jammy at 6:54 AM on December 20, 2016 [4 favorites]
DevilsAdvocate, I was referring to the stage version of the Lion King. There's that super creepy line "Nala.... how you've grown".
posted by Cygnet at 7:36 AM on December 20, 2016
posted by Cygnet at 7:36 AM on December 20, 2016
I was coming in to say The Thorn Birds too. Especially the mini-series *shudders* due to the (very) young actress being so weirdly objectified, definitely a fashion at the team (ref. whole early career of Brooke Shields). I remember being icked by this as a child myself and not understanding why. The eighties still have much to answer for.
Even creepier to my mind because there's this whole thing where Meggie knows nothing re: human reproduction and Ralph has to explain what rams and ewes do to make lambs, and later what menstruation is, because Meggie is bleeding and thinks she's dying. She basically falls in love with him because he's the one man with any sensitivity in the whole of the Australian outback, and once she's 'all grown up' (17) goes into full seduction mode to try to get him to make him break his vows. AND, although clearly a man with 'needs and desires' Ralph is utterly impervious to the age-appropriate woman who otherwise populate the farm, but it's the 'innocence' of Meggie that captures his heart....and loins! *grinds teeth*.
Well. I had no idea I was still so rattled by that whole dynamic.
posted by freya_lamb at 8:47 AM on December 20, 2016 [2 favorites]
Even creepier to my mind because there's this whole thing where Meggie knows nothing re: human reproduction and Ralph has to explain what rams and ewes do to make lambs, and later what menstruation is, because Meggie is bleeding and thinks she's dying. She basically falls in love with him because he's the one man with any sensitivity in the whole of the Australian outback, and once she's 'all grown up' (17) goes into full seduction mode to try to get him to make him break his vows. AND, although clearly a man with 'needs and desires' Ralph is utterly impervious to the age-appropriate woman who otherwise populate the farm, but it's the 'innocence' of Meggie that captures his heart....and loins! *grinds teeth*.
Well. I had no idea I was still so rattled by that whole dynamic.
posted by freya_lamb at 8:47 AM on December 20, 2016 [2 favorites]
Oops! ^...fashion at the 'time', not 'team'.
posted by freya_lamb at 9:52 AM on December 20, 2016
posted by freya_lamb at 9:52 AM on December 20, 2016
There was a rumor that Richard III was intending to marry Elizabeth of York, who was his niece (daughter of his brother, the recently deceased King Edward IV.) It made its way into many stories about her. There's definitely a "my how you've grown" line in the recent TV adaptation "The White Queen."
posted by fingersandtoes at 10:55 AM on December 20, 2016
posted by fingersandtoes at 10:55 AM on December 20, 2016
Twin Peaks: Aubrey Horne (Sherilyn Fenn) and John Justice Wheeler (Billy Zane), when they last met, Aubrey was just a little girl.
posted by porpoise at 3:17 PM on December 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by porpoise at 3:17 PM on December 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
The first thing that came to mind are two young adult series by otherwise brilliant, feminist writers.
The Sally Lockhart series by Philip Pullman (yes, the same Philip Pullman who wrote His Dark Materials) ends with this trope, except that it's the girl who goes away and then returns. Like his more famous trilogy, the series—a set of melodramatic mysteries in Victorian London—is aimed at adolescents, though I remember finding it delightfully racy when I read it as a kid. In the first book, The Ruby in the Smoke, Sally Lockhart and her friend Jim get to know a poor orphan girl, Adelaide, who then gets abducted. She's missing for the next two books, but we hear Jim has been searching for her. The fourth book takes place about a decade later, with Adelaide grown up and married to a central European prince. After some plot hijinks, the book ends with [surprise surprise] Jim and a widowed Adelaide getting married.
I even remember being weirded out by this when I first read it. I don't remember the exact ages of the characters, but Jim must have started out in his late teens or early twenties, with Adelaide 12 at most. In the first book, Jim and Sally are friends with Adelaide, but they clearly treat her like a kid, which she is. Googling the book now, I see it's implied that Adelaide worked as a prostitute during the years she was missing, which adds an extra level of squick to the romance.
I was similarly creeped out by the ending of Tamora Pierce's Song of the Lioness series, which I otherwise loved—the books are amazingly feminist and sex-positive, especially considering they were first published in the '80s. But they also end with the heroine getting engaged to her friend and mentor, who she first met when she was 12 or so.
posted by superior_donut at 6:45 PM on December 20, 2016
The Sally Lockhart series by Philip Pullman (yes, the same Philip Pullman who wrote His Dark Materials) ends with this trope, except that it's the girl who goes away and then returns. Like his more famous trilogy, the series—a set of melodramatic mysteries in Victorian London—is aimed at adolescents, though I remember finding it delightfully racy when I read it as a kid. In the first book, The Ruby in the Smoke, Sally Lockhart and her friend Jim get to know a poor orphan girl, Adelaide, who then gets abducted. She's missing for the next two books, but we hear Jim has been searching for her. The fourth book takes place about a decade later, with Adelaide grown up and married to a central European prince. After some plot hijinks, the book ends with [surprise surprise] Jim and a widowed Adelaide getting married.
I even remember being weirded out by this when I first read it. I don't remember the exact ages of the characters, but Jim must have started out in his late teens or early twenties, with Adelaide 12 at most. In the first book, Jim and Sally are friends with Adelaide, but they clearly treat her like a kid, which she is. Googling the book now, I see it's implied that Adelaide worked as a prostitute during the years she was missing, which adds an extra level of squick to the romance.
I was similarly creeped out by the ending of Tamora Pierce's Song of the Lioness series, which I otherwise loved—the books are amazingly feminist and sex-positive, especially considering they were first published in the '80s. But they also end with the heroine getting engaged to her friend and mentor, who she first met when she was 12 or so.
posted by superior_donut at 6:45 PM on December 20, 2016
Pirates of the Caribbean: Elizabeth Swann was only 11 or 12 in the opening scene on board a ship with Lieutenant James Norrington. Eight years later, Norrington has achieved more career promotion and success in the Royal Navy. He decides that the only thing missing in his life is a wife, and that this role would be fulfilled by Elizabeth.
posted by cynical pinnacle at 7:10 PM on December 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by cynical pinnacle at 7:10 PM on December 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
I'm late and there's not much of an adventure to speak of, but Tennessee Williams' Baby Doll.
posted by balacat at 9:45 PM on December 22, 2016
posted by balacat at 9:45 PM on December 22, 2016
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by JimN2TAW at 5:30 AM on December 19, 2016 [4 favorites]