Get married or move to Crone Island?
October 2, 2016 2:12 AM Subscribe
I am engaged to a warm, loving, and strongly supportive man. We have incredible affection for each other, a ton of fun together, good communication, and a relationship that many would envy. We have talked about children and he would be a loving and devoted father. In a hundred different ways, he is a better partner than I could ever have imagined for much of my life. I love him dearly and am grateful to have met him. Now I need to decide if I want to sign up for a life with him or putting my money where my mouth is and moving to Crone Island for good.
Although he is a deeply feminist man who constantly works at being better, he has never had to pull equal weight on the emotional labor / household logistics front until meeting me. Things that aren't important to him have a tendency to not get done unless I prod or until consequences happen. He has a demanding job and there are legitimate time crunches, but so do I, and yet when things are important, I make sure stuff gets done. Some of this is very much a personality issue, but it also collides strongly with the idea that the buck has to stop somewhere or households don't run, and he is okay with it operating at a less effective level. For the duration of our relationship, I've opted to not do that work for him.
The emotional labor thread awoke some slumbering beast inside of me that refuses to deal with the gross inequalities that tainted previous relationships. He is fully accepting of this and acknowledges that he is bad at these things and needs to get better about making doctor's appointments, or calling the plumber and getting his retirement accounts sorted out. There are many logistical things in his own life that I am just plain not getting involved in as a matter of principle because I am not his keeper and he is a grown ass man.
But now we're facing a life together. His decisions and actions will impact not just me but our future children, and here is where I have concerns. He would be the father that goes to every little league game and show up to every carpool on time if someone else created the calendar. Right now we're planning a wedding and if I assign half the planning to him, there's a decent chance we'll end up scrambling because he doesn't really understand the lead time necessary to book venues and call florists and caterers and gets caught off guard. In general, I can rely on him to get things done eventually, but it will be more stressful and less smooth than if I did it myself. Certain things that have to get done right and on time like vaccinations and school registrations will always have to be things on my plate. And part of me resents that.
We need to talk more, obviously, but first I need to figure out in my own head where I stand. I love him dearly and he is a good, caring person who loves and respects me and works harder to unpack his own issues than anyone I've ever met. But it is clear to me that marrying him (or anyone who is a product of the world we live in) would result in me taking on a unfair portion of the emotional labor in running a household and raising kids. And as much as I love him, and want to have kids with him, that chafes me. It bothers me that I will always have to choose between doing it myself or accepting that we as a unit are letting important things go because he just isn't devoting the same mental real estate to it as I do.
The alternative would be to accept that if this wonderful man can't meet the bar, no one will, and to move to Crone Island and raise my dog and live my life and bow out of the institution of marriage and parenthood completely. A few people in the big EL thread said something to the effect of "I love my husband and my children, but if something happened to them I would move to Crone Island and never do it again." Now is my chance to make that call before it happens and I don't know what to do. I love him dearly and he is a truly wonderful person but part of me wonders if I would in fact be happier alone and responsible for only my own life.
Primary emotional labor providers, were you in this position when you got married? How did you decide? Did you get married and wish you had chosen differently? What am I missing?
Please don't make this about "Why don't you just care less?". It's not that I don't trust him, it's not that I need a house that runs like a Swiss watch or children that have 23 after school activities and only eat organic free range homemade meals. It's a default-parent, default-household-manager, default-makes-things-happen person issue.
Although he is a deeply feminist man who constantly works at being better, he has never had to pull equal weight on the emotional labor / household logistics front until meeting me. Things that aren't important to him have a tendency to not get done unless I prod or until consequences happen. He has a demanding job and there are legitimate time crunches, but so do I, and yet when things are important, I make sure stuff gets done. Some of this is very much a personality issue, but it also collides strongly with the idea that the buck has to stop somewhere or households don't run, and he is okay with it operating at a less effective level. For the duration of our relationship, I've opted to not do that work for him.
The emotional labor thread awoke some slumbering beast inside of me that refuses to deal with the gross inequalities that tainted previous relationships. He is fully accepting of this and acknowledges that he is bad at these things and needs to get better about making doctor's appointments, or calling the plumber and getting his retirement accounts sorted out. There are many logistical things in his own life that I am just plain not getting involved in as a matter of principle because I am not his keeper and he is a grown ass man.
But now we're facing a life together. His decisions and actions will impact not just me but our future children, and here is where I have concerns. He would be the father that goes to every little league game and show up to every carpool on time if someone else created the calendar. Right now we're planning a wedding and if I assign half the planning to him, there's a decent chance we'll end up scrambling because he doesn't really understand the lead time necessary to book venues and call florists and caterers and gets caught off guard. In general, I can rely on him to get things done eventually, but it will be more stressful and less smooth than if I did it myself. Certain things that have to get done right and on time like vaccinations and school registrations will always have to be things on my plate. And part of me resents that.
We need to talk more, obviously, but first I need to figure out in my own head where I stand. I love him dearly and he is a good, caring person who loves and respects me and works harder to unpack his own issues than anyone I've ever met. But it is clear to me that marrying him (or anyone who is a product of the world we live in) would result in me taking on a unfair portion of the emotional labor in running a household and raising kids. And as much as I love him, and want to have kids with him, that chafes me. It bothers me that I will always have to choose between doing it myself or accepting that we as a unit are letting important things go because he just isn't devoting the same mental real estate to it as I do.
The alternative would be to accept that if this wonderful man can't meet the bar, no one will, and to move to Crone Island and raise my dog and live my life and bow out of the institution of marriage and parenthood completely. A few people in the big EL thread said something to the effect of "I love my husband and my children, but if something happened to them I would move to Crone Island and never do it again." Now is my chance to make that call before it happens and I don't know what to do. I love him dearly and he is a truly wonderful person but part of me wonders if I would in fact be happier alone and responsible for only my own life.
Primary emotional labor providers, were you in this position when you got married? How did you decide? Did you get married and wish you had chosen differently? What am I missing?
Please don't make this about "Why don't you just care less?". It's not that I don't trust him, it's not that I need a house that runs like a Swiss watch or children that have 23 after school activities and only eat organic free range homemade meals. It's a default-parent, default-household-manager, default-makes-things-happen person issue.
I agree with everything terretu said. I also did not see the word compromise in your post.
posted by Thella at 2:21 AM on October 2, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by Thella at 2:21 AM on October 2, 2016 [10 favorites]
As a person who is in a very similar position right now (not specifically, but generally)- as in, I am in an unbalanced relationship and I must decide what to do- this resonates very strongly.
But it is clear to me that marrying him (or anyone who is a product of the world we live in) would result in me taking on a unfair portion of the emotional labor in running a household and raising kids. And as much as I love him, and want to have kids with him, that chafes me. It bothers me that I will always have to choose between doing it myself or accepting that we as a unit are letting important things go because he just isn't devoting the same mental real estate to it as I do.
It sounds to me like you just want balance, which seems so logical and achievable, right? But when even "simple" balance seems like an unattainable goal, and seeking that makes you seem like you're asking for the moon- what then? It's hard to consider even MORE compromise. If I read you correctly, compromising is what got you where you are now. Or perhaps "settling" is more accurate. At any rate- you've reached an impasse, and those can only be overcome by communication. (Even if you're the only one who's fully aware of the impasse.)
We need to talk more, obviously, but first I need to figure out in my own head where I stand.
Begging to differ here- talking it out should always be more important than personal stance-taking, IMO. Especially when the stakes are this high.
Does he know how close to the edge you are? Have you truly, honestly shared the depth of this frustration? His response to what sounds like dealbreakers from you would be very telling. Figure it out in your head, but let him participate. Otherwise, it's not fair, and it's not how I'd want to be treated (I bet you would not either). Give him more of what's inside your head. Make sure he really understands the impact of the imbalance you are feeling. You have to be on the same page, and want the same things. There is no way to achieve that unless you communicate. From your post, it does not sound like there's been enough of that. ?
posted by I_Love_Bananas at 3:10 AM on October 2, 2016 [15 favorites]
But it is clear to me that marrying him (or anyone who is a product of the world we live in) would result in me taking on a unfair portion of the emotional labor in running a household and raising kids. And as much as I love him, and want to have kids with him, that chafes me. It bothers me that I will always have to choose between doing it myself or accepting that we as a unit are letting important things go because he just isn't devoting the same mental real estate to it as I do.
It sounds to me like you just want balance, which seems so logical and achievable, right? But when even "simple" balance seems like an unattainable goal, and seeking that makes you seem like you're asking for the moon- what then? It's hard to consider even MORE compromise. If I read you correctly, compromising is what got you where you are now. Or perhaps "settling" is more accurate. At any rate- you've reached an impasse, and those can only be overcome by communication. (Even if you're the only one who's fully aware of the impasse.)
We need to talk more, obviously, but first I need to figure out in my own head where I stand.
Begging to differ here- talking it out should always be more important than personal stance-taking, IMO. Especially when the stakes are this high.
Does he know how close to the edge you are? Have you truly, honestly shared the depth of this frustration? His response to what sounds like dealbreakers from you would be very telling. Figure it out in your head, but let him participate. Otherwise, it's not fair, and it's not how I'd want to be treated (I bet you would not either). Give him more of what's inside your head. Make sure he really understands the impact of the imbalance you are feeling. You have to be on the same page, and want the same things. There is no way to achieve that unless you communicate. From your post, it does not sound like there's been enough of that. ?
posted by I_Love_Bananas at 3:10 AM on October 2, 2016 [15 favorites]
He's acknowledged that he needs to do more....but is he actually taking steps to do so?
posted by brujita at 3:13 AM on October 2, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by brujita at 3:13 AM on October 2, 2016 [1 favorite]
You don't have to jump right from getting married and starting a life together to having children. If he is willing and interested in making changes, and figuring out how to share the work of running a household, why not give him a few years where it's just the two of you to sort out how the labour will be divided? Once you have that running smoothly, then have the kids.
posted by 5_13_23_42_69_666 at 3:34 AM on October 2, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by 5_13_23_42_69_666 at 3:34 AM on October 2, 2016 [5 favorites]
If it is still unequal now it will get worse with kids, IME. The world of parenting relies on that unequal emotional labour in parenting and you cannot simply 'wait' for the man in your life to realise that children need to be vaccinated/emotionally engaged with*/actively cared for, or any number of concrete things like research, or the billion little choices you make every day as a parent.
I once counted 30 questions in 15 minutes as my husband did me a favour by cooking dinner. A man who, prior to being a dad, managed to cook multiple meals without any help. That was while I wrangled our kid and eventually gave up on the time sensitive thing I was working on. Easier to lose sleep than to even try and work if they are home.
That is probably the key difference - my partner can get work done at home with me and the kid around because I manage myself, her, and the house. If I have to work (or just want to play a game!) they have to be out of the house because the world has so thoroughly taught my husband that the domestic is mine and he is incompetent, and that in turn has been passed to the kid who will walk away from her father to ask me a question. He tries but the world is structured to undermine any deviation from that heterosexist norm.
I don't know that this always will happen or must happen, but I know my partner is the only dad I know who puts in as much work at home as he does. I don't need to prep the house if I leave on a work trip (although I will come home to 7 loads of laundry and rotted food in the fridge), but he made dinners and lunches and breakfasts. If I am sick he will deal with the house. He tries, more than any other dad I know, to be engaged with everything from her school stuff to her health to things as simple as shoe size. But it always slides back to me. Slowly and inexorably I am drowned in domesticity.
*y'know, like those HILARIOUS memes where dad is parenting via TV, unplugged controllers while they game, babywear while watching Breaking Bad, using kids as yard work, those sorts of things literally happen. And kids do it because they are SO starved for daddy time they take whatever they can even though they know daddy isn't listening. Until the day they don't care any more and suddenly dad wonders what happened to their 'fun' relationship.
posted by geek anachronism at 3:40 AM on October 2, 2016 [65 favorites]
I once counted 30 questions in 15 minutes as my husband did me a favour by cooking dinner. A man who, prior to being a dad, managed to cook multiple meals without any help. That was while I wrangled our kid and eventually gave up on the time sensitive thing I was working on. Easier to lose sleep than to even try and work if they are home.
That is probably the key difference - my partner can get work done at home with me and the kid around because I manage myself, her, and the house. If I have to work (or just want to play a game!) they have to be out of the house because the world has so thoroughly taught my husband that the domestic is mine and he is incompetent, and that in turn has been passed to the kid who will walk away from her father to ask me a question. He tries but the world is structured to undermine any deviation from that heterosexist norm.
I don't know that this always will happen or must happen, but I know my partner is the only dad I know who puts in as much work at home as he does. I don't need to prep the house if I leave on a work trip (although I will come home to 7 loads of laundry and rotted food in the fridge), but he made dinners and lunches and breakfasts. If I am sick he will deal with the house. He tries, more than any other dad I know, to be engaged with everything from her school stuff to her health to things as simple as shoe size. But it always slides back to me. Slowly and inexorably I am drowned in domesticity.
*y'know, like those HILARIOUS memes where dad is parenting via TV, unplugged controllers while they game, babywear while watching Breaking Bad, using kids as yard work, those sorts of things literally happen. And kids do it because they are SO starved for daddy time they take whatever they can even though they know daddy isn't listening. Until the day they don't care any more and suddenly dad wonders what happened to their 'fun' relationship.
posted by geek anachronism at 3:40 AM on October 2, 2016 [65 favorites]
Taking absolutely everything you said at face-value, it sounds like you have a very big truckload of positives and somewhat less daunting drawbacks, especially if he's equally sincere in endeavoring to work on his weaknesses. Many lifelong happy marriages endure far greater negatives.
That said, a balance has two scales. Are there areas, perhaps unrelated to household-management (your strength/his weakness), that you both agree you're not 100% perfect at, things upon which you might develop and become stronger in order to, you know, form a more perfect union? Or are there other aspects of the relationship in which he might be pulling more than his own weight at present?
A relationship in which both parties are working to become better in their own (often unrelated) ways at least puts you on an equal-effort footing, which can be a whole lot less adversarial.
Also, what Five said: this doesn't sound like all or nothing. It's unclear from your post whether you even live together yet, for example. Either way, there's nothing wrong with planning an approach of many-baby-steps, here. Live together, practice the household management parts, even get married after a bit. At all times, talk and share and evaluate how you each handle different responsibilities. You don't need to get perfect at everything before marriage and/or children, I don't think: you both just need to see sincere effort and progress from the other, each working on their own weak/stress-inducing problem areas.
posted by rokusan at 3:45 AM on October 2, 2016 [8 favorites]
That said, a balance has two scales. Are there areas, perhaps unrelated to household-management (your strength/his weakness), that you both agree you're not 100% perfect at, things upon which you might develop and become stronger in order to, you know, form a more perfect union? Or are there other aspects of the relationship in which he might be pulling more than his own weight at present?
A relationship in which both parties are working to become better in their own (often unrelated) ways at least puts you on an equal-effort footing, which can be a whole lot less adversarial.
Also, what Five said: this doesn't sound like all or nothing. It's unclear from your post whether you even live together yet, for example. Either way, there's nothing wrong with planning an approach of many-baby-steps, here. Live together, practice the household management parts, even get married after a bit. At all times, talk and share and evaluate how you each handle different responsibilities. You don't need to get perfect at everything before marriage and/or children, I don't think: you both just need to see sincere effort and progress from the other, each working on their own weak/stress-inducing problem areas.
posted by rokusan at 3:45 AM on October 2, 2016 [8 favorites]
Adding this... speaking from personal experience and from sharing in the experiences of close friends, nothing is as damaging to a relationship as when one person ends up feeling more like a parent than a partner.
Desire, passion, intimacy, can all be put very much at risk when you end up feeling like you're caretaking in a parent/child dynamic vs. sharing the load equally with a committed, fully-invested partner. Resentment builds and conflict can escalate. Please share your feelings with him and work on establishing a foundation that can sustain you both equally.
posted by I_Love_Bananas at 3:59 AM on October 2, 2016 [36 favorites]
Desire, passion, intimacy, can all be put very much at risk when you end up feeling like you're caretaking in a parent/child dynamic vs. sharing the load equally with a committed, fully-invested partner. Resentment builds and conflict can escalate. Please share your feelings with him and work on establishing a foundation that can sustain you both equally.
posted by I_Love_Bananas at 3:59 AM on October 2, 2016 [36 favorites]
Hey buddy, I feel for you. I think some couples counselling could be a great start - it is a worthy investment for the rest of your life, potentially.
More broadly, I see this play out in my own marriage (we're not married, but may as well be), our friends marriage's etc. Patriarchy certainly shapes our relationships, but some relationships break out of that more than others.
So firstly: it doesn't have to be this way. You don't have to accept it. Not all men are like this. Not all men stay like this. It is a spectrum, and it is not static.
Secondly, and I dunno maybe this isn't relevant for you, but something I learnt relatively early on in my marriage is that a) both people probably feel like they are contributing more, cause there's just that much (Esp once kids come along, and home ownership etc etc) and b) I need to learn to embrace constant compromise, and sometimes I will be very aware of that, and sometimes I won't, and my partner will not always notice my sacrifices for her, nor I hers.
I'm trying to avoid your "don't tell me to care less" injunction, and it's not about caring less, but it's about accepting that a living partnership is messy and your partner won't always do the things you want, how you want them done.
It's exhausting sometimes, and it can feel like work - and relationships are work. I think the key is are you working with someone, or working against someone? That distinction matters to me.
I would be wary of anyone telling you to break up with this guy, or stay with this guy. What you're talking about varies so much for people. Your benchmark and my benchmark, and random mefite's benchmarks could al be radically different. And what proportion is attributable to patriarchy, communication issues, etc etc is also all over the map. No one gets to draw the line except you and your partner.
Have you expressed these fears to him? Do you have a clear picture of the kind of actions you want from him?You might be frustrated, "That's just more emotional labour!", and you're right; but relationships do actually require a lot of emotional labour from both parties. I think the balance is more of an issue.
Best of luck buddy; you're in an archipelago with lots of islands; don't get your bearing off just one.
posted by smoke at 4:19 AM on October 2, 2016 [21 favorites]
More broadly, I see this play out in my own marriage (we're not married, but may as well be), our friends marriage's etc. Patriarchy certainly shapes our relationships, but some relationships break out of that more than others.
So firstly: it doesn't have to be this way. You don't have to accept it. Not all men are like this. Not all men stay like this. It is a spectrum, and it is not static.
Secondly, and I dunno maybe this isn't relevant for you, but something I learnt relatively early on in my marriage is that a) both people probably feel like they are contributing more, cause there's just that much (Esp once kids come along, and home ownership etc etc) and b) I need to learn to embrace constant compromise, and sometimes I will be very aware of that, and sometimes I won't, and my partner will not always notice my sacrifices for her, nor I hers.
I'm trying to avoid your "don't tell me to care less" injunction, and it's not about caring less, but it's about accepting that a living partnership is messy and your partner won't always do the things you want, how you want them done.
It's exhausting sometimes, and it can feel like work - and relationships are work. I think the key is are you working with someone, or working against someone? That distinction matters to me.
I would be wary of anyone telling you to break up with this guy, or stay with this guy. What you're talking about varies so much for people. Your benchmark and my benchmark, and random mefite's benchmarks could al be radically different. And what proportion is attributable to patriarchy, communication issues, etc etc is also all over the map. No one gets to draw the line except you and your partner.
Have you expressed these fears to him? Do you have a clear picture of the kind of actions you want from him?You might be frustrated, "That's just more emotional labour!", and you're right; but relationships do actually require a lot of emotional labour from both parties. I think the balance is more of an issue.
Best of luck buddy; you're in an archipelago with lots of islands; don't get your bearing off just one.
posted by smoke at 4:19 AM on October 2, 2016 [21 favorites]
I think you also need to evaluate both how much promise this man shows and how much you want to have children.
posted by k8t at 4:29 AM on October 2, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by k8t at 4:29 AM on October 2, 2016 [2 favorites]
Hey, I could almost have written this. I decided to keep the guy but not to have kids.
posted by mskyle at 5:03 AM on October 2, 2016 [18 favorites]
posted by mskyle at 5:03 AM on October 2, 2016 [18 favorites]
I am 1000% behind the emotional labor thread and everything it illuminates. At the same time, an unfortunate side effect of the absolute necessity of recognizing emotional labor is an oversimplifiedof all domestic negotiations into this category.
Emotional labor done by women has a particular inflection -- the woman is *supposed* to do all this seemingly unimportant crap and it remains invisible labor that is unrewarded, accumulating until the woman feels her output and productivity has no relation to the value she's given.
On the other hand, many women and men are really pretty crappy at remembering errands, absent minded at common sense ordinary tasks, cleaning, etc. I (a very political feminist woman) am absolutely terrible at remembering to do certain tasks or knowing how much lead time I needed to book a florist.
I also know many couples where the very sexist man does all the maintenance around things like finances, fixing things, making sure the car is in shape, being the interface and planner for any rigid household routines. Then the woman is often cast as spacey, flighty, incompetent and childlike. It is not always true that the woman is grimly competent and the man is reaping the rewards of expected domestic incompetence. The opposite structure occurs too -- and the woman can still be doing all the emotional labor!
My point is that it's important not to automatically equate a less attentive eye to household or everyday detail with sexism. Some people are really less attuned to and more tolerant of chaos than others and we've seen many questions here about female roommates with this tendency.
If your guy is like this with his own finances and his ordinary life on his own, without expecting your stepping in to fix it, this is a different issue than his depending on you for emotional labor. It is his own being more tolerant of some chaos than you are. The fact that you can't stand his way of being this way on his own is not really evidence that he's expecting implicit gendered labor from you. True, it will manifest in some things like unequal wedding planning, but the way you describe that here, it sounds like it stems more from his general orientation in the world, one that perhaps he makes work fine without issue. Many, many households with feminist women are kind of messy, casual, late, and chaotic. This is more of an issue of personality difference, one that you can see in couples with both couples represented in the "spacey" slot. If he's not really assuming things are your job and slacking off because you'll just take care of it as the woman, if he does not expect order to magically happen and then not valuing you for doing it, it would (IMHO) be more productive to treat this as a potential incompatibility based on personal tolerance for disorder. Otherwise, you are going to punish him and possibly torment yourself for a level of responsibility that won't necessarily make sense given the general texture of your relationship.
posted by flourpot at 5:09 AM on October 2, 2016 [106 favorites]
Emotional labor done by women has a particular inflection -- the woman is *supposed* to do all this seemingly unimportant crap and it remains invisible labor that is unrewarded, accumulating until the woman feels her output and productivity has no relation to the value she's given.
On the other hand, many women and men are really pretty crappy at remembering errands, absent minded at common sense ordinary tasks, cleaning, etc. I (a very political feminist woman) am absolutely terrible at remembering to do certain tasks or knowing how much lead time I needed to book a florist.
I also know many couples where the very sexist man does all the maintenance around things like finances, fixing things, making sure the car is in shape, being the interface and planner for any rigid household routines. Then the woman is often cast as spacey, flighty, incompetent and childlike. It is not always true that the woman is grimly competent and the man is reaping the rewards of expected domestic incompetence. The opposite structure occurs too -- and the woman can still be doing all the emotional labor!
My point is that it's important not to automatically equate a less attentive eye to household or everyday detail with sexism. Some people are really less attuned to and more tolerant of chaos than others and we've seen many questions here about female roommates with this tendency.
If your guy is like this with his own finances and his ordinary life on his own, without expecting your stepping in to fix it, this is a different issue than his depending on you for emotional labor. It is his own being more tolerant of some chaos than you are. The fact that you can't stand his way of being this way on his own is not really evidence that he's expecting implicit gendered labor from you. True, it will manifest in some things like unequal wedding planning, but the way you describe that here, it sounds like it stems more from his general orientation in the world, one that perhaps he makes work fine without issue. Many, many households with feminist women are kind of messy, casual, late, and chaotic. This is more of an issue of personality difference, one that you can see in couples with both couples represented in the "spacey" slot. If he's not really assuming things are your job and slacking off because you'll just take care of it as the woman, if he does not expect order to magically happen and then not valuing you for doing it, it would (IMHO) be more productive to treat this as a potential incompatibility based on personal tolerance for disorder. Otherwise, you are going to punish him and possibly torment yourself for a level of responsibility that won't necessarily make sense given the general texture of your relationship.
posted by flourpot at 5:09 AM on October 2, 2016 [106 favorites]
He was raised like this, and everything on the world reinforces that he must be like this. He is not doing this to hurt you. He is trapped in his role and slowly gaining freedom. It takes a very long time to change. Do you want to share that journey of awakening and freedom with him? What if it takes him 18 years? But then you have 18 more very very good years? Would it be worth it? Or not?
This is where money helps- is there a way you can together decide that your monetary priority will be on things that decrease your labor?
I myself have chosen to not partner. It did not give me less labor to do.
posted by SyraCarol at 5:18 AM on October 2, 2016 [6 favorites]
This is where money helps- is there a way you can together decide that your monetary priority will be on things that decrease your labor?
I myself have chosen to not partner. It did not give me less labor to do.
posted by SyraCarol at 5:18 AM on October 2, 2016 [6 favorites]
Things that aren't important to him have a tendency to not get done unless I prod or until consequences happen.
I'm not sure it makes sense to mix this up with concern over unequal labor, be it emotional or practical household stuff. Nobody sinks limited resources into things they regard as unimportant. If he regards these tasks as important but expects you to do them, that's one sort of problem. If you and he have conflicting preferences about what's most important and what you're willing to sacrifice, that's an entirely different problem.
(I got distracted before hitting Post. On preview, what flourpot said)
posted by jon1270 at 5:26 AM on October 2, 2016 [11 favorites]
I'm not sure it makes sense to mix this up with concern over unequal labor, be it emotional or practical household stuff. Nobody sinks limited resources into things they regard as unimportant. If he regards these tasks as important but expects you to do them, that's one sort of problem. If you and he have conflicting preferences about what's most important and what you're willing to sacrifice, that's an entirely different problem.
(I got distracted before hitting Post. On preview, what flourpot said)
posted by jon1270 at 5:26 AM on October 2, 2016 [11 favorites]
I am in a very similar position to you - in fact I'm replying in part so that my fellow Mefite fiancé knows this question isn't mine! I spent a long time musing on the impact of disproportionate EL on our future relationship before proposing. The thing that swung it for me is that my partner has actually made measurable changes to his attitudes and behaviour and taken on the full responsibility for certain tasks after reading the EL thread, including wedding related things. So, truly, the only answer I can give you is to talk to him and tell him you need to see evidence that he is applying the principle of shared emotional labour in your everyday lives.
posted by dumdidumdum at 5:32 AM on October 2, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by dumdidumdum at 5:32 AM on October 2, 2016 [7 favorites]
I think you're right to be concerned about this as a huge red flag. I think there are two ways to view it, and neither of them are good.
1. jon1270 calls out an important point. Does he effectively handle the things he regards as important? It may be that you two don't agree on what's important.
This is actually a huge thing. The examples you cite are issues that I, like you, consider important: He is fully accepting of this and acknowledges that he is bad at these things and needs to get better about making doctor's appointments, or calling the plumber and getting his retirement accounts sorted out.
If he doesn't consider doctor appointments, calling the plumber (!!), handling finances to be important, then I think you have an irreconcilable difference--because those are important aspects to adult life and just need to be handled--and it's wise to get out if he really doesn't think of them as important.
2. Here's where things get more nuanced, and more treacherous. If he says that he considers them important, but doesn't actually handle them, then his words are really just lip service. I will guess that he offers this "acknowledgement" only when you notice and/or ask him about having done those things; then his statement that they're important and he's bad at it is only placating you. He is trying to weasel out of accountability. If he has a career and can get himself out the door to work every day, he is fully capable of handling those things. He is not "bad at them", he's blowing them off. You are right not to pick up the slack.
Being with a partner who will not be accountable is a nightmare. Been there, done that, it was awful. Don't do it.
posted by Sublimity at 5:37 AM on October 2, 2016 [25 favorites]
1. jon1270 calls out an important point. Does he effectively handle the things he regards as important? It may be that you two don't agree on what's important.
This is actually a huge thing. The examples you cite are issues that I, like you, consider important: He is fully accepting of this and acknowledges that he is bad at these things and needs to get better about making doctor's appointments, or calling the plumber and getting his retirement accounts sorted out.
If he doesn't consider doctor appointments, calling the plumber (!!), handling finances to be important, then I think you have an irreconcilable difference--because those are important aspects to adult life and just need to be handled--and it's wise to get out if he really doesn't think of them as important.
2. Here's where things get more nuanced, and more treacherous. If he says that he considers them important, but doesn't actually handle them, then his words are really just lip service. I will guess that he offers this "acknowledgement" only when you notice and/or ask him about having done those things; then his statement that they're important and he's bad at it is only placating you. He is trying to weasel out of accountability. If he has a career and can get himself out the door to work every day, he is fully capable of handling those things. He is not "bad at them", he's blowing them off. You are right not to pick up the slack.
Being with a partner who will not be accountable is a nightmare. Been there, done that, it was awful. Don't do it.
posted by Sublimity at 5:37 AM on October 2, 2016 [25 favorites]
On yes! Part of the process had to do with financing our wedding. Initially my fiancé was very averse to spending money on our wedding, but now he's realised that the less money you spend on a wedding the more energy and EL is spent, and now he understands the full implications of that and how that will fall unfairly on my shoulders. Now we're budgeting very carefully each stage of the way, with a focus on ease and comfort for us and our guests, and with a view to navigating the myriad gendered norms of marriage (for example, none of his family's interpersonal issues are touching my plate).
posted by dumdidumdum at 5:42 AM on October 2, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by dumdidumdum at 5:42 AM on October 2, 2016 [3 favorites]
My wife and I probably both do more than the other spouse recognizes. It's easier to notice your own stuff than theirs. This is particularly the case because there's just literally so much to do that we can't keep up with it all without running ourselves ragged. So we sometimes let things slide, and we both sometimes get frustrated.
Everyone always thinks they do more and work the hardest, I think (both at home and at work, for that matter). Obviously that's not always true and I'm not saying it's not in your case. But I wanted to throw this out there as a thing to consider, because it could add some perspective and it could lead to the conclusion that he's doing more than you give him credit for, even if it's in slightly different areas than you would like.
posted by J. Wilson at 5:50 AM on October 2, 2016 [6 favorites]
Everyone always thinks they do more and work the hardest, I think (both at home and at work, for that matter). Obviously that's not always true and I'm not saying it's not in your case. But I wanted to throw this out there as a thing to consider, because it could add some perspective and it could lead to the conclusion that he's doing more than you give him credit for, even if it's in slightly different areas than you would like.
posted by J. Wilson at 5:50 AM on October 2, 2016 [6 favorites]
Primary emotional labor providers, were you in this position when you got married? How did you decide? Did you get married and wish you had chosen differently? What am I missing?
Yes, I was in this position though I did not realize how much. Reading the EL thread brought a lot of things to the surface.
My partner does most of the housework and cooking. He is fiscally responsible. He makes his own doctors appointments and remembers them. However, relationship discussions are always initiated (and reinitiated) by me, I have to fight not to be the primary point of contact for his family, I read and suggest all relationship books, I organize our parties and friend outings and Christmases and all of that. I'm the person who Knows and Remembers The Things and the People.
We did elope — at least in part because I saw how wedding planning went for my girlfriends and I opted out of that clusterfuck.
Since the thread, we had a terrible year that turned into the kind of year that makes or breaks you. I was already really upset about failed attempts to have him even read the thread, let alone talk about it without expecting me to fully manage the conversation and prompt and coddle him through it.
Then we had a miscarriage, our cat died, and he went into full depression/anxiety and I went into full grief and rage. I made him going to personal therapy a deal breaker condition of continuing the marriage.
Since then he is going to therapy and got on meds and is learning to talk about his feelings. We had many fights and he debriefed them with his therapist and came back able to see my side and actually talk to me. He has done a PILE of work this year to be more present and brave enough to talk and talk again. I have done a pile of work to step back on EL tasks and to make room for him to step up.
His lack of EL had huge consequences this year: With all the crap we went through, his support system consisted of two people — me and his therapist. His friendships are surface project based things, not structured to provide support when your baby dies. And his family relationships are similarly empty. I pay for his therapist so that I can be on my own side in our fights and not have to ALSO counsel him through his feels. That's someone else's job now.
This year we prep together for emotional stuff (eg family visits, baby showers). It is a massive change. We have also become much more intentional about maintaining our mutual friendships, bringing him into an ongoing conversation about who we want to spend time with and how and when. And when he goes on Twitter during the conversations with friends that turn to relationships and feelings, I steal his fucking phone because what the hell, dude. Stop tuning out. (It's a work in progress.)
A huge resource for me this year has been the Crone Island Slack community. DM me if you want to join those conversations!
posted by sadmadglad at 6:11 AM on October 2, 2016 [31 favorites]
Yes, I was in this position though I did not realize how much. Reading the EL thread brought a lot of things to the surface.
My partner does most of the housework and cooking. He is fiscally responsible. He makes his own doctors appointments and remembers them. However, relationship discussions are always initiated (and reinitiated) by me, I have to fight not to be the primary point of contact for his family, I read and suggest all relationship books, I organize our parties and friend outings and Christmases and all of that. I'm the person who Knows and Remembers The Things and the People.
We did elope — at least in part because I saw how wedding planning went for my girlfriends and I opted out of that clusterfuck.
Since the thread, we had a terrible year that turned into the kind of year that makes or breaks you. I was already really upset about failed attempts to have him even read the thread, let alone talk about it without expecting me to fully manage the conversation and prompt and coddle him through it.
Then we had a miscarriage, our cat died, and he went into full depression/anxiety and I went into full grief and rage. I made him going to personal therapy a deal breaker condition of continuing the marriage.
Since then he is going to therapy and got on meds and is learning to talk about his feelings. We had many fights and he debriefed them with his therapist and came back able to see my side and actually talk to me. He has done a PILE of work this year to be more present and brave enough to talk and talk again. I have done a pile of work to step back on EL tasks and to make room for him to step up.
His lack of EL had huge consequences this year: With all the crap we went through, his support system consisted of two people — me and his therapist. His friendships are surface project based things, not structured to provide support when your baby dies. And his family relationships are similarly empty. I pay for his therapist so that I can be on my own side in our fights and not have to ALSO counsel him through his feels. That's someone else's job now.
This year we prep together for emotional stuff (eg family visits, baby showers). It is a massive change. We have also become much more intentional about maintaining our mutual friendships, bringing him into an ongoing conversation about who we want to spend time with and how and when. And when he goes on Twitter during the conversations with friends that turn to relationships and feelings, I steal his fucking phone because what the hell, dude. Stop tuning out. (It's a work in progress.)
A huge resource for me this year has been the Crone Island Slack community. DM me if you want to join those conversations!
posted by sadmadglad at 6:11 AM on October 2, 2016 [31 favorites]
I'm not sure whether it's necessary for you to move to Crone Island, but it would be a kindness to your partner to end or at least suspend your engagement: your post, at least, does not describe a couple ready to be married. You present yourself as a fully formed, competent, mature adult, and at the same time you present your fiance in paragraph after paragraph as something less than that. If that is indeed the state of play, I'd advise you to end the engagement. A relationship in which one person is always setting the bar and the other is always having to hustle to clear it is fundamentally unequal, not to mention grimly exhausting for both parties.
If, on the contrary, things are more balanced than that, I'd take a deeper look at the wider context of the relationship. "Things that aren't important to him have a tendency not to get done"; what happens with the things that aren't important to you? There are things he "needs to get better about"; is he able to be a support about the things (if any) that you need to get better about? He's working hard to "unpack his own issues"; is he able by word or deed to be a help to you as you sort out your own issues (if any)? Emotional labor is a real thing: you are absolutely entitled to the full support of a fully committed partner, and if you don't feel you're going to get that from your fiance, then it's probably better to walk than to be consumed by resentment. But while logistical competence is a surprisingly large part of emotional labor, it's not all of it, and it may be worth re-considering the full value of what he does bring to the table before abandoning a relationship that has so many positives. You may find there is more balance to your partnership than you were able to convey in your post.
I wish you joy of whatever you decide.
posted by muhonnin at 6:14 AM on October 2, 2016 [16 favorites]
If, on the contrary, things are more balanced than that, I'd take a deeper look at the wider context of the relationship. "Things that aren't important to him have a tendency not to get done"; what happens with the things that aren't important to you? There are things he "needs to get better about"; is he able to be a support about the things (if any) that you need to get better about? He's working hard to "unpack his own issues"; is he able by word or deed to be a help to you as you sort out your own issues (if any)? Emotional labor is a real thing: you are absolutely entitled to the full support of a fully committed partner, and if you don't feel you're going to get that from your fiance, then it's probably better to walk than to be consumed by resentment. But while logistical competence is a surprisingly large part of emotional labor, it's not all of it, and it may be worth re-considering the full value of what he does bring to the table before abandoning a relationship that has so many positives. You may find there is more balance to your partnership than you were able to convey in your post.
I wish you joy of whatever you decide.
posted by muhonnin at 6:14 AM on October 2, 2016 [16 favorites]
It's maximizers vs sufficers all the way down.
posted by fixedgear at 6:14 AM on October 2, 2016 [11 favorites]
posted by fixedgear at 6:14 AM on October 2, 2016 [11 favorites]
You've read the emotional labor thread.
Has he?
If so, does he take actions to go with his understanding? One of the discussions I had with Mr. Nat post EL-thread was that he's bad at some of these things because he's never practiced, because no one expected him to do them. The only way to get better is to do them. He agreed, and he's doing, and yeah it doesn't always work, and it doesn't work right away. And it's an ongoing work in progress and I expect always will be.
But in the end, I get more support out of the relationship than I put in (and I think he does too).
Do you?
posted by nat at 6:28 AM on October 2, 2016 [5 favorites]
Has he?
If so, does he take actions to go with his understanding? One of the discussions I had with Mr. Nat post EL-thread was that he's bad at some of these things because he's never practiced, because no one expected him to do them. The only way to get better is to do them. He agreed, and he's doing, and yeah it doesn't always work, and it doesn't work right away. And it's an ongoing work in progress and I expect always will be.
But in the end, I get more support out of the relationship than I put in (and I think he does too).
Do you?
posted by nat at 6:28 AM on October 2, 2016 [5 favorites]
Two things:
1. The best advice I and my husband ever got was that "equal" doesn't mean that you are doing the same things. For example, if one of you is a better cook, independent of gender, that person can take on the cooking. If one of you is better at laundry, independent of gender, that person can take that on. It just really shouldn't be one person doing everything. Same goes for the emotional labor. In your case is he good at *anything*? Or is he a shlub? If he is a shlub, move to Crone Island.
2. Certain life events like weddings or having babies gets very gendered, even when the couple pushes against this, because friends and family automatically assume specific roles. I handled this for my wedding by repeatedly telling people that my husband was organizing the wedding and to direct questions through him (which no one did, because he is a man - so fewer headaches for me!) and when having kids, again I told people that he was the primary caregiver so parenting choices were his decision. I've found that if friends and family have to divert questions through the male partner, they become less gendered, antagonistic, forceful and include the male partner more in the process. Sort of a weird twist on the feminist dream - but works for me!
posted by Toddles at 7:08 AM on October 2, 2016 [16 favorites]
1. The best advice I and my husband ever got was that "equal" doesn't mean that you are doing the same things. For example, if one of you is a better cook, independent of gender, that person can take on the cooking. If one of you is better at laundry, independent of gender, that person can take that on. It just really shouldn't be one person doing everything. Same goes for the emotional labor. In your case is he good at *anything*? Or is he a shlub? If he is a shlub, move to Crone Island.
2. Certain life events like weddings or having babies gets very gendered, even when the couple pushes against this, because friends and family automatically assume specific roles. I handled this for my wedding by repeatedly telling people that my husband was organizing the wedding and to direct questions through him (which no one did, because he is a man - so fewer headaches for me!) and when having kids, again I told people that he was the primary caregiver so parenting choices were his decision. I've found that if friends and family have to divert questions through the male partner, they become less gendered, antagonistic, forceful and include the male partner more in the process. Sort of a weird twist on the feminist dream - but works for me!
posted by Toddles at 7:08 AM on October 2, 2016 [16 favorites]
I don't know what this "Crone Island" thing is, but I've been single so far in my 50 years, been in some serious relationships, just haven't met the one yet, so maybe my perspective will help. You want to talk emotional labor? It ALL falls on me. Everything - bills, appointments, family obligations, buying gifts, remembering birthdays, paying the mortgage, calling the plumber, taking off work to have my car's airbags fixed due to a recall, housework, yard work, and allll the decision making! There are many days I wish there was someone here to share just the tiniest bit of my load. I just want to point that out so you don't go thinking this Crone Island will be a tropical holiday full of amenities.
I love my life and am very happy with it, but yeah, there are a lot of struggles just doing it all on your own. Maybe a partner who understands EL and is at least trying is better than nothing at all? Stop projecting how you think he will act in the future, that is not productive. You should talk with him and explain how you're feeling - just IMHO but you seem to be expecting a lot of him - what are his expectations of you going into marriage? You need to talk about that. If he is as great as you paint him to be, you owe him this conversation.
posted by NoraCharles at 7:38 AM on October 2, 2016 [53 favorites]
I love my life and am very happy with it, but yeah, there are a lot of struggles just doing it all on your own. Maybe a partner who understands EL and is at least trying is better than nothing at all? Stop projecting how you think he will act in the future, that is not productive. You should talk with him and explain how you're feeling - just IMHO but you seem to be expecting a lot of him - what are his expectations of you going into marriage? You need to talk about that. If he is as great as you paint him to be, you owe him this conversation.
posted by NoraCharles at 7:38 AM on October 2, 2016 [53 favorites]
While Crone Island isn't a tropical island full of amenities, it is a place where you'll never have to worry about someone resenting you for not wanting to constantly do more than your fair share.
posted by blerghamot at 7:47 AM on October 2, 2016 [35 favorites]
posted by blerghamot at 7:47 AM on October 2, 2016 [35 favorites]
Is growing up an option for him? I understand it takes time, but you speak about it as though it's a non-starter. If that's the case...I mean, yeah, don't marry a non-adult.
Even though I'm a woman, there are a number of adult-like things that I'm pretty bad at, relatively speaking, because I had shitty parents and I've had to teach myself most things. I'm still learning, and still pretty bad at some stuff, but getting better over time. And mostly importantly, I know I'm crap at these things and that I need to get better, and while I'm working on that I would never, ever dream of making it someone else's problem.
That seems like an important distinction, to me.
posted by schadenfrau at 8:12 AM on October 2, 2016 [6 favorites]
Even though I'm a woman, there are a number of adult-like things that I'm pretty bad at, relatively speaking, because I had shitty parents and I've had to teach myself most things. I'm still learning, and still pretty bad at some stuff, but getting better over time. And mostly importantly, I know I'm crap at these things and that I need to get better, and while I'm working on that I would never, ever dream of making it someone else's problem.
That seems like an important distinction, to me.
posted by schadenfrau at 8:12 AM on October 2, 2016 [6 favorites]
Before you book your ticket, I would make an honest list of the things that he does do, especially the things you wouldn't want to do. Does he do the typically gendered things like mowing the lawn, shoveling snow, fixing things? As someone said above, it can work and it's totally okay if you split chores based on who's better at what, even if they fall upon traditional lines. Observe over the course of a month and (without his knowledge) mark down everything he does to help. It may be more than you realize.
My ex did do these things and definitely did more than his share of the physical labor. But... he was horrible with finances and hadn't filed his taxes in EIGHT YEARS when we got married. I ended up dealing with almost all of that by myself! It should have been a giant red flag for me but I soldiered on, and once I set that precedent of doing things for him, it never got any better. I'm sure he could write a litany of complaints about me, and he wouldn't be totally wrong, but once resentment sets in, it's very very hard to get past it.
posted by AFABulous at 8:28 AM on October 2, 2016 [2 favorites]
My ex did do these things and definitely did more than his share of the physical labor. But... he was horrible with finances and hadn't filed his taxes in EIGHT YEARS when we got married. I ended up dealing with almost all of that by myself! It should have been a giant red flag for me but I soldiered on, and once I set that precedent of doing things for him, it never got any better. I'm sure he could write a litany of complaints about me, and he wouldn't be totally wrong, but once resentment sets in, it's very very hard to get past it.
posted by AFABulous at 8:28 AM on October 2, 2016 [2 favorites]
I (40s, solo parent to one tween child) have a SO who spends his weekends here, and could not believe how much easier life can be with two adults in a home. NoraCharles' response wants some extra favouriting here.
It is work to figure out how acclimatise to having another adult in your space. But, oh, wow. The yardwork gets magically sorted. I can go to the fridge and expect to find a new bag of milk there if the last time I looked there was very little milk left. I can come home late at night in the cold and dark with groceries, and somebody will bring them in while I put them away.
I have surgery coming up this week that, prior to having a boyfriend, I avoided because the logistics overwhelmed. And now I'm not worried about it at all; my daughter will have quality care from somebody she adores, and I can relax and know that I'll be cared for while recuperating. I could have sorted something out with friends and family and a lot of planning
In re: "Although he is a deeply feminist man who constantly works at being better, he has never had to pull equal weight on the emotional labor / household logistics front until meeting me. Things that aren't important to him have a tendency to not get done unless I prod or until consequences happen."
One thing I have to remind myself about the SO is that he made it to middle age without my assistance. (Amazing!) Still he has yet to figure out that if he cleans the 1st floor here but not the stairs and the 2nd, the 1st floor will quickly get dirty from the cat hair etc from the 2nd being tracked down -- so what? That's not him slacking on emotional or household labour; that's just a standard of cleanliness that suits him and lack of experience with dusty old country houses. The floors are still cleaner than they were before. If some things are not important to him, you can: ignore them. If they are impossible to ignore, have more in-depth conversations with him about why it should not always default to you to call the plumber. Or figure out who is responsible for what, taking your strengths and weaknesses in various areas into consideration.
Also, any chance he is pulling more weight than you think because he is expending domestic labour on things that are not that important to you? I had to get over myself and my dishwasher-loading rules after realising how much work was being done on yard maintenance and other outdoor scut work. Dude doesn't separate laundry because he doesn't care if his few whites are dingy; instead of getting into a fuss over this it's a lot easier for me to do the laundry and let him pull the weeds up from the path. I have never had the time or strength to deal with those weeds, so for a while contributions like that failed to register. Oops.
Beware of antipathy towards traditional gendered divisions of labour masquerading as feminism. I grew up with very traditionally gendered divisions there and have lost patience here and there with the missing-the-point 'yes, exactly, women need to use table saws and men need to make quiche' ideas -- I don't enjoy cutting wood but I make a first-rate quiche. Some couples are quite happy eating Stouffer's and contracting out rebuilding the porch stairs, and that's fine, too.
Finally: digging in one's heels and deciding that everything must be 50/50 and not "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" is a mistake.
posted by kmennie at 8:57 AM on October 2, 2016 [35 favorites]
It is work to figure out how acclimatise to having another adult in your space. But, oh, wow. The yardwork gets magically sorted. I can go to the fridge and expect to find a new bag of milk there if the last time I looked there was very little milk left. I can come home late at night in the cold and dark with groceries, and somebody will bring them in while I put them away.
I have surgery coming up this week that, prior to having a boyfriend, I avoided because the logistics overwhelmed. And now I'm not worried about it at all; my daughter will have quality care from somebody she adores, and I can relax and know that I'll be cared for while recuperating. I could have sorted something out with friends and family and a lot of planning
In re: "Although he is a deeply feminist man who constantly works at being better, he has never had to pull equal weight on the emotional labor / household logistics front until meeting me. Things that aren't important to him have a tendency to not get done unless I prod or until consequences happen."
One thing I have to remind myself about the SO is that he made it to middle age without my assistance. (Amazing!) Still he has yet to figure out that if he cleans the 1st floor here but not the stairs and the 2nd, the 1st floor will quickly get dirty from the cat hair etc from the 2nd being tracked down -- so what? That's not him slacking on emotional or household labour; that's just a standard of cleanliness that suits him and lack of experience with dusty old country houses. The floors are still cleaner than they were before. If some things are not important to him, you can: ignore them. If they are impossible to ignore, have more in-depth conversations with him about why it should not always default to you to call the plumber. Or figure out who is responsible for what, taking your strengths and weaknesses in various areas into consideration.
Also, any chance he is pulling more weight than you think because he is expending domestic labour on things that are not that important to you? I had to get over myself and my dishwasher-loading rules after realising how much work was being done on yard maintenance and other outdoor scut work. Dude doesn't separate laundry because he doesn't care if his few whites are dingy; instead of getting into a fuss over this it's a lot easier for me to do the laundry and let him pull the weeds up from the path. I have never had the time or strength to deal with those weeds, so for a while contributions like that failed to register. Oops.
Beware of antipathy towards traditional gendered divisions of labour masquerading as feminism. I grew up with very traditionally gendered divisions there and have lost patience here and there with the missing-the-point 'yes, exactly, women need to use table saws and men need to make quiche' ideas -- I don't enjoy cutting wood but I make a first-rate quiche. Some couples are quite happy eating Stouffer's and contracting out rebuilding the porch stairs, and that's fine, too.
Finally: digging in one's heels and deciding that everything must be 50/50 and not "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" is a mistake.
posted by kmennie at 8:57 AM on October 2, 2016 [35 favorites]
This is a big part of the reason I don't want children. I would reiterate what another commenter said, that it might be helpful to think about whether not having children is an option for you, and for both of you. Treating having children as a separate consideration from getting married might help clarify priorities a bit, either way.
posted by lazuli at 9:21 AM on October 2, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by lazuli at 9:21 AM on October 2, 2016 [4 favorites]
A few things---
1) I think you need to differenriate between things which really are important to both of you and things which you feel should be important to him but are actually just important to you. For example, my husband didn't really care about the wedding planning. Once we had the big picture worked out, that was it, and the minutia didn't interest him. Neither of us had any issue with me taking the lead on it and frankly, there were advantages to just taking care of it myself and not having to worry about consulting him.
2) One reason that parenting tasks can often seem unequal is because society is set up to require at least one parent to work. He makes more money than me so he works and I will be staying home, at least for awhile. It doesn't mean he is not contributing equally to the baby. He is contributing by going to work and supporting our practical needs while I feed and dress and care for our child! From a legal standpoint, parental leave in our country is able to be shared, but only one at a time. So if he took it, I would be the one going to work while he stayed home to do the baby care. It just isn't possible for both of us to stay home and do that equally.
3) We have also begun to work out ways to outsource some of the drudgery so neither of us has to do it, and if you have some extra money, there is nothing wrong with that. We pay for takeout food on laundry night, and are about to start paying for a cleaner. Well worth it, in my mind.
4) Fighting and nagging is emotional labour too. There are small things I'd rather just do myself than fight about. For example, he sometimes leaves his socks lying around on the couch and I don't like it. So I just move them on top of his computer keyboard, so that he has to put them away before he uses the computer. He has never asked me why there are socks on his computer, and we have never had a fight about him leaving them out.
posted by ficbot at 9:22 AM on October 2, 2016 [3 favorites]
1) I think you need to differenriate between things which really are important to both of you and things which you feel should be important to him but are actually just important to you. For example, my husband didn't really care about the wedding planning. Once we had the big picture worked out, that was it, and the minutia didn't interest him. Neither of us had any issue with me taking the lead on it and frankly, there were advantages to just taking care of it myself and not having to worry about consulting him.
2) One reason that parenting tasks can often seem unequal is because society is set up to require at least one parent to work. He makes more money than me so he works and I will be staying home, at least for awhile. It doesn't mean he is not contributing equally to the baby. He is contributing by going to work and supporting our practical needs while I feed and dress and care for our child! From a legal standpoint, parental leave in our country is able to be shared, but only one at a time. So if he took it, I would be the one going to work while he stayed home to do the baby care. It just isn't possible for both of us to stay home and do that equally.
3) We have also begun to work out ways to outsource some of the drudgery so neither of us has to do it, and if you have some extra money, there is nothing wrong with that. We pay for takeout food on laundry night, and are about to start paying for a cleaner. Well worth it, in my mind.
4) Fighting and nagging is emotional labour too. There are small things I'd rather just do myself than fight about. For example, he sometimes leaves his socks lying around on the couch and I don't like it. So I just move them on top of his computer keyboard, so that he has to put them away before he uses the computer. He has never asked me why there are socks on his computer, and we have never had a fight about him leaving them out.
posted by ficbot at 9:22 AM on October 2, 2016 [3 favorites]
As someone who has lived quite happily on Crone Island, and who also also been both unhappily and happily partnered, I think it comes down to this: are you doing more work overall than you would be doing alone?
AFABulous and kmennie make valid points about it being easy to miss types of labor that aren't a priority for you. NoraCharles is also quite right that on Crone Island, you'll still be the one paying all the bills, buying all the birthday gifts, cleaning the whole house, cooking all the meals.
For me, it has ultimately mattered less whether all chores are split equally in a relationship than that all the burdens of everything don't fall to me.
In a previous relationship, I was the default adult. I did 95% of cooking, errands, laundry, paying bills, preparing for parties, routine cleaning, etc. I was not getting my emotional needs met in any way that mattered for overall quality of life, although my partner was very kind and tried to be helpful (for example, by making beans and rice on nights I was too tired to cook a proper meal). I was constantly picking up his slack--a classic example is the time I had to cover his share of rent for a week because he didn't remember to pay me before leaving on a trip.
In my current relationship, I do 95% of the cleaning and 95% of remembering to restock certain household items, along with a few default errands and handling my own stuff (laundry, bills, etc.). I also tend to do more research about Big Adult Things (insurance, wedding planning stuff, estate planning) because I have maximizer tendencies and want to feel confident we're doing those things "right." Mr. Owlcat pays all our joint bills on time, takes all our joint laundry to be cleaned, and does 95% of grocery shopping, cooking, non-cleaning party prep, and setup of new electronic devices. On a daily basis, I might get annoyed at how many dishes he created to make dinner--but I also know I didn't have to go out for groceries for that dinner, or spend time cooking it.
I still do a buttload of work, including emotional labour around our families and mutual friends. I sometimes resent this, especially when I am tired. But always, I know I'm having more fun and doing less work overall for a higher quality of life than I'd have alone. My advice to you is to consider whether your fiance is stepping up in any ways that make your life easier--and if he's not, if he's willing to allocate money to take things like wedding planning and/or daily chores off your plate.
posted by Owlcat at 9:33 AM on October 2, 2016 [13 favorites]
AFABulous and kmennie make valid points about it being easy to miss types of labor that aren't a priority for you. NoraCharles is also quite right that on Crone Island, you'll still be the one paying all the bills, buying all the birthday gifts, cleaning the whole house, cooking all the meals.
For me, it has ultimately mattered less whether all chores are split equally in a relationship than that all the burdens of everything don't fall to me.
In a previous relationship, I was the default adult. I did 95% of cooking, errands, laundry, paying bills, preparing for parties, routine cleaning, etc. I was not getting my emotional needs met in any way that mattered for overall quality of life, although my partner was very kind and tried to be helpful (for example, by making beans and rice on nights I was too tired to cook a proper meal). I was constantly picking up his slack--a classic example is the time I had to cover his share of rent for a week because he didn't remember to pay me before leaving on a trip.
In my current relationship, I do 95% of the cleaning and 95% of remembering to restock certain household items, along with a few default errands and handling my own stuff (laundry, bills, etc.). I also tend to do more research about Big Adult Things (insurance, wedding planning stuff, estate planning) because I have maximizer tendencies and want to feel confident we're doing those things "right." Mr. Owlcat pays all our joint bills on time, takes all our joint laundry to be cleaned, and does 95% of grocery shopping, cooking, non-cleaning party prep, and setup of new electronic devices. On a daily basis, I might get annoyed at how many dishes he created to make dinner--but I also know I didn't have to go out for groceries for that dinner, or spend time cooking it.
I still do a buttload of work, including emotional labour around our families and mutual friends. I sometimes resent this, especially when I am tired. But always, I know I'm having more fun and doing less work overall for a higher quality of life than I'd have alone. My advice to you is to consider whether your fiance is stepping up in any ways that make your life easier--and if he's not, if he's willing to allocate money to take things like wedding planning and/or daily chores off your plate.
posted by Owlcat at 9:33 AM on October 2, 2016 [13 favorites]
I can't categorize myself as a "primary emotional labor provider" but I do most of the financial work in my relationship. I did a majority of our wedding planning. I do most of the vacation and activity planning. My partner does a majority of a BUNCH of other things. We share a bunch of things. The key thing is that we are both willing to either work on or let go of the things we don't do well or enough.
Basically, what ficbot said in point #1 above.
I'm sorry that I'm giving you the answer that you specifically said you didn't want, but, given that you have a partner who seems willing and that you yourself described as "feminist," I think this is an issue of communication, compromise, expectations, recognition of what you both bring to the relationship and the price of admission.
posted by cnc at 9:35 AM on October 2, 2016 [2 favorites]
Basically, what ficbot said in point #1 above.
I'm sorry that I'm giving you the answer that you specifically said you didn't want, but, given that you have a partner who seems willing and that you yourself described as "feminist," I think this is an issue of communication, compromise, expectations, recognition of what you both bring to the relationship and the price of admission.
posted by cnc at 9:35 AM on October 2, 2016 [2 favorites]
"What am I missing?"
Hi! You can go to couples counseling and work on these things! It can be genius! I especially recommend EFT based therapy, it's super easy and helps you both communicate and make reasonable changes to the way you function together as a household and a family.
posted by jbenben at 9:45 AM on October 2, 2016 [5 favorites]
Hi! You can go to couples counseling and work on these things! It can be genius! I especially recommend EFT based therapy, it's super easy and helps you both communicate and make reasonable changes to the way you function together as a household and a family.
posted by jbenben at 9:45 AM on October 2, 2016 [5 favorites]
I also married the man but decided not to have the children. It's worked so well for us as we've been able to grow and improve together and more of our needs are met in a way that's fulfilling and happy. Kids would have stressed the situation to an unacceptable amount. It wouldn't have ended the marriage, but only because I would have stepped up, made myself smaller and made my life about getting all the loose ends tied and managing my own growing resentment so that it didn't destroy the family. Kids and the all-consuming dynamic they bring can push everything to the brink in ways that nothing else can. More than anything, I didn't want to start seeing my partner as another person to manage along with my kids.
posted by quince at 9:53 AM on October 2, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by quince at 9:53 AM on October 2, 2016 [6 favorites]
My perspective is from 35 years of marriage, with a husband who has NO IDEA of the concept of EL. However....He was a Mr. Mom 25 years ago when we knew no one else who did it. (There are still very few men who've done it, are doing it, will even consider doing it.) Ours was a conscious decision and he took over every single thing, but the EL for friends and family was absolutely the most difficult for him to learn. And yes, I do believe it is a skill that men have to actually want to learn. He did, and it sounds like your SO does, too. It will take a while, be patient. For me, the hardest part was to stop caring so much about the things he didn't value. If he doesn't care enough to send his mom a birthday card, then I needed to stop giving that frustration the space in my life. Reminding him to make a kid's doctor's appointment or take care of some other item really isn't EL, it's just helping your partner.
Like others, I'm not sure you have a good idea of what he does bring to the relationship, or at least didn't articulate it in your question, and I would suggest you take a hard look. One of the biggest keys to our success was identifying each other's strengths and work with that as a base. I've found that we were successful because we shared the same values, not because we evenly shared the chores. Some years he did the heavy lifting, some years it fell on me. We didn't keep score.
I think it's not possible to find a partner who mirrors your strengths and weaknesses exactly, and I don't think that makes for a strong relationship either because you need to take care of the things you are good at and he needs to do the same. My husband and I are exact opposites in almost every way, but we use it enhance our lives. A couple needs to work out a compromise together, and both need to feel as if they are contributing equally. And as noted above, a lot of times that falls along historic gender-based lines. And lots of times it isn't equal, due to circumstances out of your control. To expect it to be an equal partnership every day forever is not realistic, I don't think. (Which is very different from signing up to be the main heavy-lifter for the rest of your life.)
And finally, life changes. A lot. It isn't all or nothing and sometimes people can't see that. You can change. He can change. Six years ago we switched up. I retired and he built up his business. I hate being at home and he hates the pressures of work and we are working now to even it out again. Life's a journey, and if you've found someone you want to travel with, then go for it. Very little will happen that you can't work out, especially if you have good communication and a partner that sincerely wants to contribute.
posted by raisingsand at 10:01 AM on October 2, 2016 [8 favorites]
Like others, I'm not sure you have a good idea of what he does bring to the relationship, or at least didn't articulate it in your question, and I would suggest you take a hard look. One of the biggest keys to our success was identifying each other's strengths and work with that as a base. I've found that we were successful because we shared the same values, not because we evenly shared the chores. Some years he did the heavy lifting, some years it fell on me. We didn't keep score.
I think it's not possible to find a partner who mirrors your strengths and weaknesses exactly, and I don't think that makes for a strong relationship either because you need to take care of the things you are good at and he needs to do the same. My husband and I are exact opposites in almost every way, but we use it enhance our lives. A couple needs to work out a compromise together, and both need to feel as if they are contributing equally. And as noted above, a lot of times that falls along historic gender-based lines. And lots of times it isn't equal, due to circumstances out of your control. To expect it to be an equal partnership every day forever is not realistic, I don't think. (Which is very different from signing up to be the main heavy-lifter for the rest of your life.)
And finally, life changes. A lot. It isn't all or nothing and sometimes people can't see that. You can change. He can change. Six years ago we switched up. I retired and he built up his business. I hate being at home and he hates the pressures of work and we are working now to even it out again. Life's a journey, and if you've found someone you want to travel with, then go for it. Very little will happen that you can't work out, especially if you have good communication and a partner that sincerely wants to contribute.
posted by raisingsand at 10:01 AM on October 2, 2016 [8 favorites]
....but once resentment sets in, it's very very hard to get past it.
Bingo. It reads as you aren't entirely happy with him before the stress of childrearing is added into the mix. Do you have a plan to meet the children's needs if he doesn't improve enough to meet your expectations? If he turned out to be the father you believe he would, but doesn't meet you needs, you may have to choose between dealing with him for decades or deal with kids resentment of having less access to their father.
Living in two households was very hard on my daughter. I would have never planned on conceiving a child without the (erroronious) belief in a stable relationship. So my vote, based on a half page synopsis is book a stateroom on a luxury liner and enjoy the trip to the island.
G'luck
posted by ridgerunner at 10:08 AM on October 2, 2016 [1 favorite]
Bingo. It reads as you aren't entirely happy with him before the stress of childrearing is added into the mix. Do you have a plan to meet the children's needs if he doesn't improve enough to meet your expectations? If he turned out to be the father you believe he would, but doesn't meet you needs, you may have to choose between dealing with him for decades or deal with kids resentment of having less access to their father.
Living in two households was very hard on my daughter. I would have never planned on conceiving a child without the (erroronious) belief in a stable relationship. So my vote, based on a half page synopsis is book a stateroom on a luxury liner and enjoy the trip to the island.
G'luck
posted by ridgerunner at 10:08 AM on October 2, 2016 [1 favorite]
I'm a skeptic on the concept of "emotional labor" as it is understood on Metafilter, so that may be coloring how I'm seeing your question. But the problems that you list in your relationship seem like less of an imbalance of emotional labor, and more of a different level of skill (and interest) in simple day-to-day planning and adult life management.
Let's talk about interest first:
There are many logistical things in his own life that I am just plain not getting involved in as a matter of principle because I am not his keeper and he is a grown ass man.
You're not doing these things for him, and yet, his life seems to be proceeding a pace. Assuming that his parents or someone else isn't swooping in to get this stuff done for him, it sounds like he is successfully living an adult life without the need to do all the things that you deem are important, and yet don't do for him.
I know that you don't want to be told to "care less," but I think it might behoove you to work through why it is so important to you that he do things that you see as important and he doesn't. I feel like if you did that, you might realize that while yeah he does actually need to know how to check in on his investments, he doesn't need to be on top of them every day. Similarly, 18-40 year old dudes simply don't need as many doctor's appointments if they are healthy, because there's less preventative screening (see pap smears, breast exams, etc) that's applicable to them.
Things that aren't important to him have a tendency to not get done unless I prod or until consequences happen.
Have you considered that he may have a high tolerance level for "consequences" than you do, and that might not be such a bad thing? Maybe he doesn't call the plumber for a tiny leak that can be managed with a bucket under the sink, because he's fine with having to empty a bucket everyday. So to him, your way of jumping on every little thing might be the equivalent of flipping forks (not that that metaphor isn't deeply flawed).
So yeah, compromise is important. I don't think it's fair for you to expect him to perform the work to manage a household at the level that you want, if he is fine with a less perfectly run ship. That being said, if things are truly important to you, he needs to respect that, and in some way you have evidence that he does (in that if you prod, he does what's needed).
Now let's talk about skills:
One of the problems that I have with "emotional labor," is the idea that in order to be pulling one's weight, EL-wise, one shouldn't have to be asked to do what needs to be done. This puts men (and it's always men who are accused at EL slacking) in the position of needing to be mindreaders. Which is bullshit.
Yes, you need to be able to trust your partner to do what he says he will do, but I don't think it's fair to expect your partner to do everything that you think he should do.
Let's take wedding planning, for example. if I assign half the planning to him, there's a decent chance we'll end up scrambling because he doesn't really understand the lead time necessary to book venues and call florists and caterers and gets caught off guard. In general, I can rely on him to get things done eventually, but it will be more stressful and less smooth than if I did it myself.
If you asked him to figure out what the lead time was to book venues and call florists, would he? Why is it that you understand these things and he doesn't? Is it because you've been more involved in the wedding planning world than he has (maybe because your lady friends tended to to more wedding planning than his guy friends)? You're annoyed because he doesn't have skills that he's never needed before, but yet at the same time you're not giving him the opportunity to develop the skills because it's "less stressful" to just do it yourself.
To sum up, if he's the kind of guy who does things that are important to him, AND he's reasonably willing to consider your wishes in deciding what's important to him (in other words, if he knows something's important to you, it's likely to become important to him), then I think your problem is less that he's a slacker, and more that you don't trust him to not be a slacker.
You don't seem to believe that the kind of guy who will show up to every little league game "if given a calendar," is also the kind of guy who will develop his own system of remembering when games are if the calendar isn't given to him.
Anyways, don't use the excuse of "I shouldn't have to do all the emotional labor" to avoid using your words and asking for what you want. He honestly sounds like a great guy from your description, but it does sound like if you get married, if you want your life together to be organized the way you organize your life now, you're going to have to stay in the role of organizer, or do the work to teach him how to function on your level. The right answer, of course, is for you to get more comfortable with letting things slide, and him to get better at being on top of things. Pre-marital counseling is always a good idea, and I think this is the kind of stuff that you guys can work through together over the next few months.
I wish you both luck and love.
posted by sparklemotion at 10:10 AM on October 2, 2016 [29 favorites]
Let's talk about interest first:
There are many logistical things in his own life that I am just plain not getting involved in as a matter of principle because I am not his keeper and he is a grown ass man.
You're not doing these things for him, and yet, his life seems to be proceeding a pace. Assuming that his parents or someone else isn't swooping in to get this stuff done for him, it sounds like he is successfully living an adult life without the need to do all the things that you deem are important, and yet don't do for him.
I know that you don't want to be told to "care less," but I think it might behoove you to work through why it is so important to you that he do things that you see as important and he doesn't. I feel like if you did that, you might realize that while yeah he does actually need to know how to check in on his investments, he doesn't need to be on top of them every day. Similarly, 18-40 year old dudes simply don't need as many doctor's appointments if they are healthy, because there's less preventative screening (see pap smears, breast exams, etc) that's applicable to them.
Things that aren't important to him have a tendency to not get done unless I prod or until consequences happen.
Have you considered that he may have a high tolerance level for "consequences" than you do, and that might not be such a bad thing? Maybe he doesn't call the plumber for a tiny leak that can be managed with a bucket under the sink, because he's fine with having to empty a bucket everyday. So to him, your way of jumping on every little thing might be the equivalent of flipping forks (not that that metaphor isn't deeply flawed).
So yeah, compromise is important. I don't think it's fair for you to expect him to perform the work to manage a household at the level that you want, if he is fine with a less perfectly run ship. That being said, if things are truly important to you, he needs to respect that, and in some way you have evidence that he does (in that if you prod, he does what's needed).
Now let's talk about skills:
One of the problems that I have with "emotional labor," is the idea that in order to be pulling one's weight, EL-wise, one shouldn't have to be asked to do what needs to be done. This puts men (and it's always men who are accused at EL slacking) in the position of needing to be mindreaders. Which is bullshit.
Yes, you need to be able to trust your partner to do what he says he will do, but I don't think it's fair to expect your partner to do everything that you think he should do.
Let's take wedding planning, for example. if I assign half the planning to him, there's a decent chance we'll end up scrambling because he doesn't really understand the lead time necessary to book venues and call florists and caterers and gets caught off guard. In general, I can rely on him to get things done eventually, but it will be more stressful and less smooth than if I did it myself.
If you asked him to figure out what the lead time was to book venues and call florists, would he? Why is it that you understand these things and he doesn't? Is it because you've been more involved in the wedding planning world than he has (maybe because your lady friends tended to to more wedding planning than his guy friends)? You're annoyed because he doesn't have skills that he's never needed before, but yet at the same time you're not giving him the opportunity to develop the skills because it's "less stressful" to just do it yourself.
To sum up, if he's the kind of guy who does things that are important to him, AND he's reasonably willing to consider your wishes in deciding what's important to him (in other words, if he knows something's important to you, it's likely to become important to him), then I think your problem is less that he's a slacker, and more that you don't trust him to not be a slacker.
You don't seem to believe that the kind of guy who will show up to every little league game "if given a calendar," is also the kind of guy who will develop his own system of remembering when games are if the calendar isn't given to him.
Anyways, don't use the excuse of "I shouldn't have to do all the emotional labor" to avoid using your words and asking for what you want. He honestly sounds like a great guy from your description, but it does sound like if you get married, if you want your life together to be organized the way you organize your life now, you're going to have to stay in the role of organizer, or do the work to teach him how to function on your level. The right answer, of course, is for you to get more comfortable with letting things slide, and him to get better at being on top of things. Pre-marital counseling is always a good idea, and I think this is the kind of stuff that you guys can work through together over the next few months.
I wish you both luck and love.
posted by sparklemotion at 10:10 AM on October 2, 2016 [29 favorites]
Before judging his inadequacies for things you find important, I think you need to find out from him where you fall short. I have known so many people who are blind to their own failings and it is always because they don't prioritize the things they're no good at. Just because they think their priorities are the "right" ones or the "more important" ones doesn't make it objectively true. Obviously if this all bugs you that much, dump him. But if this is coming from a place of "you don't care about my correct priorities and your priorities are unimportant" then yeah Crone Island it is.
The alternative is to value him for the things he can do that you can't or that you would never think of and to appreciate him for opening your eyes to other ways of approaching the world.
posted by janey47 at 10:35 AM on October 2, 2016 [6 favorites]
The alternative is to value him for the things he can do that you can't or that you would never think of and to appreciate him for opening your eyes to other ways of approaching the world.
posted by janey47 at 10:35 AM on October 2, 2016 [6 favorites]
statistically, people live longer and healthier lives when in long-term stable partnerships. So if I you'll permit, possibly Crone Island is not actually your destination of choice, even if this specific person is not the one you want to build a long-term stable partnership with.
In our household, I am the planner and the organizer. To a degree, I am the household labor resource as well, for things like cooking and doing laundry and the dishes and so forth. I'm terrible at vacuuming and mopping and so forth. I also mow the lawn, pay the bills, and buy the groceries.
We've tried, over about twenty-five years, to divide the labor in various ways, from alternating years of responsibility for certain things, to assigned tasks from a job bucket, to having one person act as a managerial resource and supervise daily tasks performed mostly by the other.
It never works. She doesn't pick up after herself, misses bill payments, loses bills, won't cook and is afraid of the kitchen, and on and on. I lover her very much, and this drives me crazy about her, in ways that have been at times problematic in our relationship.
Long ago, I had to decide, when it became apparent that she was never going to change these behaviors, whether or not I could live with her not doing any of this work unless asked directoy and specifically and then held to account often over literal and actual childish whining and complaining, which she insists is merely intended humorously. It really sucks, actually, both carrying the weight and attempting to integrate her into the workload. It has negative consequences for her as well - she interprets my doing these tasks as male-privilege dominance behavior which leaves her feeling disempowered in her own house. She further projects that onto things like furniture and decoration, complaining that she isn't allowed to rearrange a room or select and hang pictures. She absolutely is allowed; it's her house too! But whatever combination of neurotic anxiety and self-doubt she carries that prevents her from functioning well with regard to certain kinds of adulting alao paralyzes her with respect to expressing her own sense of space, and I think the things are related.
What did I decide? To take care of this person for the rest of our lives. She doesn't need me to do it, really - she was a grown woman with an umade bed and piles of dirty laundry before I met her. But I love her, I can't live that way, and she can't change, so I do these things. It's fine, mostly. Sometimes I feel resentful about it, but it's a choice I made and would make again.
We don't have or want kids, and that might have affected how I thought about this, as well.
Anyway, my two cents. It's definitely possible to have a fulfilling, stable, long-term partnership with someone who cannot function at one's minimum expected level of organization and responsibility. It does create challenges for both partners. But for us, at least, it's not a deal breaker.
posted by mwhybark at 11:30 AM on October 2, 2016 [7 favorites]
In our household, I am the planner and the organizer. To a degree, I am the household labor resource as well, for things like cooking and doing laundry and the dishes and so forth. I'm terrible at vacuuming and mopping and so forth. I also mow the lawn, pay the bills, and buy the groceries.
We've tried, over about twenty-five years, to divide the labor in various ways, from alternating years of responsibility for certain things, to assigned tasks from a job bucket, to having one person act as a managerial resource and supervise daily tasks performed mostly by the other.
It never works. She doesn't pick up after herself, misses bill payments, loses bills, won't cook and is afraid of the kitchen, and on and on. I lover her very much, and this drives me crazy about her, in ways that have been at times problematic in our relationship.
Long ago, I had to decide, when it became apparent that she was never going to change these behaviors, whether or not I could live with her not doing any of this work unless asked directoy and specifically and then held to account often over literal and actual childish whining and complaining, which she insists is merely intended humorously. It really sucks, actually, both carrying the weight and attempting to integrate her into the workload. It has negative consequences for her as well - she interprets my doing these tasks as male-privilege dominance behavior which leaves her feeling disempowered in her own house. She further projects that onto things like furniture and decoration, complaining that she isn't allowed to rearrange a room or select and hang pictures. She absolutely is allowed; it's her house too! But whatever combination of neurotic anxiety and self-doubt she carries that prevents her from functioning well with regard to certain kinds of adulting alao paralyzes her with respect to expressing her own sense of space, and I think the things are related.
What did I decide? To take care of this person for the rest of our lives. She doesn't need me to do it, really - she was a grown woman with an umade bed and piles of dirty laundry before I met her. But I love her, I can't live that way, and she can't change, so I do these things. It's fine, mostly. Sometimes I feel resentful about it, but it's a choice I made and would make again.
We don't have or want kids, and that might have affected how I thought about this, as well.
Anyway, my two cents. It's definitely possible to have a fulfilling, stable, long-term partnership with someone who cannot function at one's minimum expected level of organization and responsibility. It does create challenges for both partners. But for us, at least, it's not a deal breaker.
posted by mwhybark at 11:30 AM on October 2, 2016 [7 favorites]
I should note, as well, that we grew up in different cultures, kind of, and with different economic resources. Her parents are immigrants and have different cultural expecations for thier children than mine did in terms of teaching the basic elements of being adults in the US, and she was the youngest child. So she was never taught to cook or clean or that deadlines and budgets were important, sort of a mix of extreme privilege and economic challenge (her parents were wealthy where they came from but struggled for many years here).
In many ways, the differing expectations that we have of each other and of ourselves reflect differing cultural and class backgrounds. So it's all work, all negotiation.
posted by mwhybark at 11:35 AM on October 2, 2016 [1 favorite]
In many ways, the differing expectations that we have of each other and of ourselves reflect differing cultural and class backgrounds. So it's all work, all negotiation.
posted by mwhybark at 11:35 AM on October 2, 2016 [1 favorite]
I think your concern about this needs to be respected, and all of the people telling you that you're at fault in some way or that it will all work out are misguided.
If you are already thinking about this, there is presently a big imbalance in your relationship (or you wouldn't even think to post the question). You are signing up for a life in which you do more of the household and emotional labor. Maybe others are suited to that kind of life, but I don't think you would enjoy it. (And neither do you.)
I would have a very serious discussion with him about the the emotional labor thread. Has he read it? What does he think about it? What examples made him feel most powerfully about the issue? Which ones had he seen others experience himself? Etc.
You guys need to be able to talk about this before you choose to commit to him. You need to know where he stands and not just hope it all works out. The patriarchy doesn't deal kindly with women who have kids and hope it all works out well for them somehow contrary to the experience of millions of women over thousands of years of history.
posted by 3491again at 11:45 AM on October 2, 2016 [10 favorites]
If you are already thinking about this, there is presently a big imbalance in your relationship (or you wouldn't even think to post the question). You are signing up for a life in which you do more of the household and emotional labor. Maybe others are suited to that kind of life, but I don't think you would enjoy it. (And neither do you.)
I would have a very serious discussion with him about the the emotional labor thread. Has he read it? What does he think about it? What examples made him feel most powerfully about the issue? Which ones had he seen others experience himself? Etc.
You guys need to be able to talk about this before you choose to commit to him. You need to know where he stands and not just hope it all works out. The patriarchy doesn't deal kindly with women who have kids and hope it all works out well for them somehow contrary to the experience of millions of women over thousands of years of history.
posted by 3491again at 11:45 AM on October 2, 2016 [10 favorites]
Mwhybark, statistically MEN live longer when they are in partnerships with women. Women do just fine on their own, because they often have better self-care around doctor's visits, food, exercise, etc.
I'm sure the OP will do just fine on Crone Island if she decides to make that choice.
posted by 3491again at 11:49 AM on October 2, 2016 [32 favorites]
I'm sure the OP will do just fine on Crone Island if she decides to make that choice.
posted by 3491again at 11:49 AM on October 2, 2016 [32 favorites]
I admit to not having read past kmennie's point but I reacted to it so strongly that I just had to scroll down and affirm it.
Yeah, in a sexist society guys get to slack on this stuff. I also, however, grew up in the kind of family arrangement flourpot describes. My mom was on top of things, my dad was on top of things, and both of them were slobs so while not everything was well executed, at least they didn't have one of them lugging the other one around like a bag of jello.
My dad completely respected my mom's right to keep house as she saw fit, and my mom detested nagging and would not give in to the temptation to do so.
I'm the last person to say my family life was perfect, but at least my dad wasn't the infant that many women expect their male partners to be. If you find your guy to be this infantile, then I don't see a lot of hope for this relationship, either because he really is the man-child you think he is or because you hold him in contempt.
Finally, with due respect that women have legitimate and large complaints about unequal labour, I've also heard a number of women admitting they get something out of infantilizing the men in their lives, because it makes them feel superior. I'm not saying you are this way, and I'm also hoping it's your frustration talking rather than a true belief that your choice is to marry a man-child or no-one. I'm not saying grownups are easy to find, but they're not unicorns either.
posted by tel3path at 11:53 AM on October 2, 2016 [5 favorites]
Yeah, in a sexist society guys get to slack on this stuff. I also, however, grew up in the kind of family arrangement flourpot describes. My mom was on top of things, my dad was on top of things, and both of them were slobs so while not everything was well executed, at least they didn't have one of them lugging the other one around like a bag of jello.
My dad completely respected my mom's right to keep house as she saw fit, and my mom detested nagging and would not give in to the temptation to do so.
I'm the last person to say my family life was perfect, but at least my dad wasn't the infant that many women expect their male partners to be. If you find your guy to be this infantile, then I don't see a lot of hope for this relationship, either because he really is the man-child you think he is or because you hold him in contempt.
Finally, with due respect that women have legitimate and large complaints about unequal labour, I've also heard a number of women admitting they get something out of infantilizing the men in their lives, because it makes them feel superior. I'm not saying you are this way, and I'm also hoping it's your frustration talking rather than a true belief that your choice is to marry a man-child or no-one. I'm not saying grownups are easy to find, but they're not unicorns either.
posted by tel3path at 11:53 AM on October 2, 2016 [5 favorites]
I think one thing people are missing when they say "if it's not important to him, don't worry about it" is that the consequences for some of that will fall on you when you are married. If it's "he didn't pick up his drycleaning so he has to wear a dirty shirt to work," that's one thing. But if he doesn't bother to set up his 401k, guess who is funding his retirement? If he puts off doctor's appointments and gets sick, guess who is taking care of him? There are decisions that have no consequences in the short term (so it looks like he's getting by as an adult) but have major consequences in the long term. So this is really contextual; some stuff cannot be compromised on just because it's not important to him.
posted by AFABulous at 11:54 AM on October 2, 2016 [44 favorites]
posted by AFABulous at 11:54 AM on October 2, 2016 [44 favorites]
I really want to 3rd NoraCharles and kmennie. I'm almost 40 and have been single my whole life so far and will likely be single for the rest of it. I do everything. There's is literally not one chore, one process, one event, large or small, that is planned or executed by anyone but me. (Except for things I physically can't do, like certain home repairs and lifting heavy objects, which I have to find/arrange for/pay someone else to do.) My sidewalk will never get shoveled if I don't shovel it. I will never take a trip - across town or to another country - that I didn't plan every aspect of. No one will ever remind me that it's garbage day, or that I have to buy milk. I will never be able to close my eyes or gaze off at the landscape in a moving car, because I will always be driving that car. It would be really, really nice to have those things done for me even a small percent of the time, and I would think very hard before I gave that up just because I usually had to do more of the work. Seeing as I now have to do ALL of the work anyway. I'm not saying this to complain about my life, not at all. I like my life. Just to remind you that Crone Island is not a place where you won't be overworked. It's not a place where anything is necessarily fair. And whatever the more literal Crone Island might be, like a multi-roommate or communal living situation, that to me would be 1000x more fought with potential emotional labor issues than knowing I simply have to do it all my damn self.
I know this is very different from being reluctant to enter into a life-long relationship with a specific guy knowing that you might become increasingly resentful and angry at him over time. It may indeed be better to be alone and angry at the imbalance of the world in general, than to live with someone else be angry and hurt because of the imbalance specific to your own relationship. You might prefer to do everything for yourself (and your kid(s) if you chose to have them alone), all day and every day forever, than deal with that kind of situation in a relationship. For all I know, it might be a good decision.
Btw if he sounded like a jerk who didn't respect the effort you put in, then I'd say DTMFA, single life is way better than that. But he sounds great and your relationship sounds (mostly) great and if you were my friend I wouldn't want to see you give that up for grass that's just different, not greener. (And that you have to mow.)
posted by DestinationUnknown at 12:01 PM on October 2, 2016 [30 favorites]
I know this is very different from being reluctant to enter into a life-long relationship with a specific guy knowing that you might become increasingly resentful and angry at him over time. It may indeed be better to be alone and angry at the imbalance of the world in general, than to live with someone else be angry and hurt because of the imbalance specific to your own relationship. You might prefer to do everything for yourself (and your kid(s) if you chose to have them alone), all day and every day forever, than deal with that kind of situation in a relationship. For all I know, it might be a good decision.
Btw if he sounded like a jerk who didn't respect the effort you put in, then I'd say DTMFA, single life is way better than that. But he sounds great and your relationship sounds (mostly) great and if you were my friend I wouldn't want to see you give that up for grass that's just different, not greener. (And that you have to mow.)
posted by DestinationUnknown at 12:01 PM on October 2, 2016 [30 favorites]
Mwhybark, statistically MEN live longer when they are in partnerships with women. Women do just fine on their own, because they often have better self-care around doctor's visits, food, exercise, etc.
Fair enough. I was careful not to specify gender in my citation, and I was thinking about things like dual-income and long-term illness care as well. I certainly acknowledge that Crone Island can include coupled partnerships, but was not reading it that way when I formulated my inital statement.
posted by mwhybark at 12:06 PM on October 2, 2016
Fair enough. I was careful not to specify gender in my citation, and I was thinking about things like dual-income and long-term illness care as well. I certainly acknowledge that Crone Island can include coupled partnerships, but was not reading it that way when I formulated my inital statement.
posted by mwhybark at 12:06 PM on October 2, 2016
I sometimes think emotional labor is a very useful concept that illuminates the reasons for hundreds of years of patriarchy and bullshit that is now too often invoked for completely bourgeois concerns like "he hasn't set up his 401k." Whatever it is that is bothering you about this guy, you should rspect it. People don't usually seriously consider calling off their engagement unless things are pretty bad.
posted by cakelite at 12:11 PM on October 2, 2016 [11 favorites]
posted by cakelite at 12:11 PM on October 2, 2016 [11 favorites]
You know, there's another option between Crone Island and this marriage: a different partner, one whose standards and values you respect and feel are similar to yours, and one who contributes in kind to the emotional labor of your relationship and the pragmatic work of your shared life.
posted by pinkacademic at 12:31 PM on October 2, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by pinkacademic at 12:31 PM on October 2, 2016 [4 favorites]
I was this guy in my late 20's. Well intentioned, knew I needed to get better, but still leaned on people for the calendar keeping, some of the cooking & a lot of the housework. But because I was self-aware, I was able to improve these things, and am in a stable, happy marriage where I carry my weight in all aspects. When we started out, we both had lists of things we liked doing more & liked doing less, & we compared lists & divvied some tasks in a way that felt equitable to us both.
So if you see him actually working on this & showing real improvement, then sit down in the spirit of harmony & hash it out in good faith who is comfortable doing what, & see how he sticks to that. Believe it or not, conscientious men can mature & relationships require compromise & negotiation. I mean that in the kindest way of course -- if you're not happy with the results of the agreement, then that's when you begin to reconsider.
posted by Devils Rancher at 12:46 PM on October 2, 2016 [3 favorites]
So if you see him actually working on this & showing real improvement, then sit down in the spirit of harmony & hash it out in good faith who is comfortable doing what, & see how he sticks to that. Believe it or not, conscientious men can mature & relationships require compromise & negotiation. I mean that in the kindest way of course -- if you're not happy with the results of the agreement, then that's when you begin to reconsider.
posted by Devils Rancher at 12:46 PM on October 2, 2016 [3 favorites]
One of the problems that I have with "emotional labor," is the idea that in order to be pulling one's weight, EL-wise, one shouldn't have to be asked to do what needs to be done. This puts men (and it's always men who are accused at EL slacking) in the position of needing to be mindreaders. Which is bullshit.
Respectfully, there is some amount of "reading the room" on everyone's part that's necessary in managing a household, and I'd hesitate to call it mindreading.
posted by blerghamot at 12:56 PM on October 2, 2016 [20 favorites]
Respectfully, there is some amount of "reading the room" on everyone's part that's necessary in managing a household, and I'd hesitate to call it mindreading.
posted by blerghamot at 12:56 PM on October 2, 2016 [20 favorites]
"He would be the father that..." "if I assign half the planning to him..."
These are both hypotheticals.
I am a man. Here's my question to you: Are you perfect? Are you done growing? Do you think there are things you have left to improve about yourself? Do you think this man will never change and just stay the way he is forever?
When I was 25 the description of your boyfriend could very well have described me. I have learned to do the things you mention a lot better in the past 20 years.
A major part of a relationship is helping your partner grow. He may need some help doing emotional labour better. That doesn't mean you need to do it for him. And he may indeed do it badly. Are you able to watch someone do something badly? If the answer is no then indeed a long-term relationship will probably be frustrating for you.
I'm not going to say that this person is the right partner for you. But if this really is a long-term plan then you need to go into it with the expectation that there will be change, some for the worse but some for the better.
posted by GuyZero at 1:10 PM on October 2, 2016 [5 favorites]
These are both hypotheticals.
I am a man. Here's my question to you: Are you perfect? Are you done growing? Do you think there are things you have left to improve about yourself? Do you think this man will never change and just stay the way he is forever?
When I was 25 the description of your boyfriend could very well have described me. I have learned to do the things you mention a lot better in the past 20 years.
A major part of a relationship is helping your partner grow. He may need some help doing emotional labour better. That doesn't mean you need to do it for him. And he may indeed do it badly. Are you able to watch someone do something badly? If the answer is no then indeed a long-term relationship will probably be frustrating for you.
I'm not going to say that this person is the right partner for you. But if this really is a long-term plan then you need to go into it with the expectation that there will be change, some for the worse but some for the better.
posted by GuyZero at 1:10 PM on October 2, 2016 [5 favorites]
This thread has been very interesting for me, so let me add my perspective even if I'm late to the game and I don't actually have an answer. NoraCharles's comment really resonated with me. I have been (happily!) single all my life. Yet this past year I've had a bunch of shit lobbed at me (nothing huge - no one died! But I bought a house with a ton of issues, problematic neighbours, Brexit happened...) and for the first time I felt like damn, this would've been much easier to shoulder with a partner.
I did mostly manage (partly by leaning heavily on friends - thanks foomandoonian!) and things are better. And I know that the potential partner might have actually made it harder (what if we don't agree on how to fix the issues? How to deal with the neighbours? etc). But my potential partner is hypothetical. And I still mostly don't want to share my life with someone, even if it means I have to get rid of big spiders myself. But your partner sounds like a pretty good deal and you don't sound categorically opposed to the idea of partnering up.
In short: relationships are hard work. But life on Crone Island isn't all blue skies, either. (Also don't discount old age and illness and all that stuff. If I fall down the stairs and break my neck, it'll be at least 48 hours before someone starts worrying. And when my mum dies I'll have to deal with all of that crap on my own, too.)
posted by ClarissaWAM at 1:11 PM on October 2, 2016 [4 favorites]
I did mostly manage (partly by leaning heavily on friends - thanks foomandoonian!) and things are better. And I know that the potential partner might have actually made it harder (what if we don't agree on how to fix the issues? How to deal with the neighbours? etc). But my potential partner is hypothetical. And I still mostly don't want to share my life with someone, even if it means I have to get rid of big spiders myself. But your partner sounds like a pretty good deal and you don't sound categorically opposed to the idea of partnering up.
In short: relationships are hard work. But life on Crone Island isn't all blue skies, either. (Also don't discount old age and illness and all that stuff. If I fall down the stairs and break my neck, it'll be at least 48 hours before someone starts worrying. And when my mum dies I'll have to deal with all of that crap on my own, too.)
posted by ClarissaWAM at 1:11 PM on October 2, 2016 [4 favorites]
Division of household labor is a threshold rather than cumulative effect, meaning that: the important thing for long-term relationship happiness is that your prospective spouse meet a basic level of contribution to the household and be generally willing to take on additional responsibility when things get too off balance rather than being a high performer in this regard. Partnerships where both people meet the basic threshold (these are probably the kinds of relationships NoraCharles and kmennie are referring to) usually are beneficial over being terminally single. However, relationships where one person does not meet the threshold (like Sublimity's) are often a terrible burden and the low-functioning partner adds more stress and responsibility than being single would.
I am married to someone who teeters on the edge of my basic threshold so I've been able to experience both situations within this one relationship. Times when he is above the threshold are usually pretty good, even if we're not anywhere close to an equal division of labor. Times when he falls below are extremely stressful for me and during those times I've strongly considered leaving him because being single really would be less of a burden.
From the sound of it, your fiance exceeds the basic threshold by quite a bit so I think you should feel confident that he'll generally make a good marriage partner. Your bigger issue is that you already resent him for a series of failings that haven't even happened yet and you really need to address this resentment before you think about getting married.
posted by scantee at 1:38 PM on October 2, 2016 [17 favorites]
I am married to someone who teeters on the edge of my basic threshold so I've been able to experience both situations within this one relationship. Times when he is above the threshold are usually pretty good, even if we're not anywhere close to an equal division of labor. Times when he falls below are extremely stressful for me and during those times I've strongly considered leaving him because being single really would be less of a burden.
From the sound of it, your fiance exceeds the basic threshold by quite a bit so I think you should feel confident that he'll generally make a good marriage partner. Your bigger issue is that you already resent him for a series of failings that haven't even happened yet and you really need to address this resentment before you think about getting married.
posted by scantee at 1:38 PM on October 2, 2016 [17 favorites]
Primary emotional labor providers, were you in this position when you got married? How did you decide? Did you get married and wish you had chosen differently? What am I missing?
My experience FWIW: My former husband had pretty low EL needs and I have very low willingness to provide EL. He started off bad at household tasks but by the end of our marriage was pretty solid. He was never great at the day-to-day minutae of e.g. ordinary tidying, but he was capable of pulling off lovely things, like cooking a fantastic dinner and cleaning up everything afterwards, or doing a massive house-cleaning right before I got back from a trip. I was fine with our division of household labour.
But what killed me on the EL front, and changed dramatically when we got married, was other people. His extended family expected me to keep track of and celebrate all their milestones. His friends expected me to keep track of their preferences and major life events, to participate in coordinating outings, to keep their favorite foods and drinks around, to befriend and support their partners. I was expected to pitch in to help his friends and family with babysitting and petsitting, renovations and moves, crisis interventions and all manner of stuff. My own friends surprised me by seeming to expect me to take responsibility for my husband's diet, health and overall self presentation. (Like, if he ate junky food or wore an ugly shirt, that was somehow a reflection on my performance as his wife.)
Between the two of us, once we were married, I became responsible for doctor's and dentist appointments, house cleaners, dry cleaning and alterations, deliveries, the accountant and the lawyer. This wasn't necessarily his expectation: often it was other people's. (Like, when I saw the dentist he would try to schedule my husband's next appointment through me. The cleaner would phone me, never him, if she had a problem. That kind of thing.)
I was super surprised at how, when we became formally and legally a couple, my personal workload just skyrocketed.
FWIW I have a close friend whose relationship was similar to mine, except she chose to have children. She says that her marriage, which previously had been pretty equitable, took a massive step backwards as soon as the children were born. She describes her husband as willing to chip in when he has free time, but says the overwhelming bulk of all childcare and related responsibilities falls to her. Stuff like researching what schools the kids should go to, making sure everyone knows about their allergies, managing play dates, driving them places, buying birthday presents for their friends, tracking their health stuff, taking care of them when they're sick, managing all the babysitters and nannies and other care providers, and generally staying on top of whether the kids are okay and happy. She says if she didn't do that stuff, it just wouldn't happen.
My friend has reluctantly (and bitterly TBH) scaled back her career to focus on the children, and says she plans to leave her husband as soon as the kids are in college. She used to love her husband and I always thought they had a great relationship, but now she's filled with resentment and dreams about having a small apartment and being responsible only for herself.
So, there are two data points for you.
Personally I don't plan to get married again: I just think it's a terrible deal for women. And the stats support that: IIRC married woman with children are the least happy, followed by married women without children, and then women who are unmarried.
I'm glad having kids was never important to me. If I'd wanted kids, all this stuff would've been a lot harder. Good luck to you whatever you decide :)
posted by Susan PG at 2:26 PM on October 2, 2016 [26 favorites]
My experience FWIW: My former husband had pretty low EL needs and I have very low willingness to provide EL. He started off bad at household tasks but by the end of our marriage was pretty solid. He was never great at the day-to-day minutae of e.g. ordinary tidying, but he was capable of pulling off lovely things, like cooking a fantastic dinner and cleaning up everything afterwards, or doing a massive house-cleaning right before I got back from a trip. I was fine with our division of household labour.
But what killed me on the EL front, and changed dramatically when we got married, was other people. His extended family expected me to keep track of and celebrate all their milestones. His friends expected me to keep track of their preferences and major life events, to participate in coordinating outings, to keep their favorite foods and drinks around, to befriend and support their partners. I was expected to pitch in to help his friends and family with babysitting and petsitting, renovations and moves, crisis interventions and all manner of stuff. My own friends surprised me by seeming to expect me to take responsibility for my husband's diet, health and overall self presentation. (Like, if he ate junky food or wore an ugly shirt, that was somehow a reflection on my performance as his wife.)
Between the two of us, once we were married, I became responsible for doctor's and dentist appointments, house cleaners, dry cleaning and alterations, deliveries, the accountant and the lawyer. This wasn't necessarily his expectation: often it was other people's. (Like, when I saw the dentist he would try to schedule my husband's next appointment through me. The cleaner would phone me, never him, if she had a problem. That kind of thing.)
I was super surprised at how, when we became formally and legally a couple, my personal workload just skyrocketed.
FWIW I have a close friend whose relationship was similar to mine, except she chose to have children. She says that her marriage, which previously had been pretty equitable, took a massive step backwards as soon as the children were born. She describes her husband as willing to chip in when he has free time, but says the overwhelming bulk of all childcare and related responsibilities falls to her. Stuff like researching what schools the kids should go to, making sure everyone knows about their allergies, managing play dates, driving them places, buying birthday presents for their friends, tracking their health stuff, taking care of them when they're sick, managing all the babysitters and nannies and other care providers, and generally staying on top of whether the kids are okay and happy. She says if she didn't do that stuff, it just wouldn't happen.
My friend has reluctantly (and bitterly TBH) scaled back her career to focus on the children, and says she plans to leave her husband as soon as the kids are in college. She used to love her husband and I always thought they had a great relationship, but now she's filled with resentment and dreams about having a small apartment and being responsible only for herself.
So, there are two data points for you.
Personally I don't plan to get married again: I just think it's a terrible deal for women. And the stats support that: IIRC married woman with children are the least happy, followed by married women without children, and then women who are unmarried.
I'm glad having kids was never important to me. If I'd wanted kids, all this stuff would've been a lot harder. Good luck to you whatever you decide :)
posted by Susan PG at 2:26 PM on October 2, 2016 [26 favorites]
I promise I'm not making assumptions about your standards of how a household and family should operate. But in my personal experience and that of other men and women in my family, a huge factor in the emotional labor equation has to do with how much importance the two people place on things that have to/might be done. TL/DR: Just because one of you thinks their way is the best way, it's often not the case.
For example, early in my marriage I managed the holiday cards and personal notes; my husband didn't care about it, and that frustrated me. I saw the cards as a way to keep friendships alive over time. After a while, he suggested that we make a list of people we really wanted to keep in touch with, and I realized that holiday cards aren't necessary. It's not just me; he started out with assumptions of things I ought to be doing or sharing, and we negotiated a custom-made arrangement.
Who says my cousin's boyfriend has a right to be irritated when she leaves toothpaste spatters on the mirror? Why does my sister think it's necessary for her to send out a lovely note with printed photos of her kids, to every relative.....and feel put out about it? Where did I get the idea that my husband ought to do half the laundry, half the kitchen clean-up, half the bill-paying, etc? What the hell is my brother thinking, expecting his anti-catholic wife to take their daughter to church every Sunday while he participates in bike races and training for races on those mornings?
Before "emotion labor" was a thing, I just called it "expectations about roles." Everybody goes into a relationship or parenthood with assumptions about what's important and who's going to do what. When you decide to stay together, you two can make whatever deal works.
posted by wryly at 2:37 PM on October 2, 2016 [6 favorites]
For example, early in my marriage I managed the holiday cards and personal notes; my husband didn't care about it, and that frustrated me. I saw the cards as a way to keep friendships alive over time. After a while, he suggested that we make a list of people we really wanted to keep in touch with, and I realized that holiday cards aren't necessary. It's not just me; he started out with assumptions of things I ought to be doing or sharing, and we negotiated a custom-made arrangement.
Who says my cousin's boyfriend has a right to be irritated when she leaves toothpaste spatters on the mirror? Why does my sister think it's necessary for her to send out a lovely note with printed photos of her kids, to every relative.....and feel put out about it? Where did I get the idea that my husband ought to do half the laundry, half the kitchen clean-up, half the bill-paying, etc? What the hell is my brother thinking, expecting his anti-catholic wife to take their daughter to church every Sunday while he participates in bike races and training for races on those mornings?
Before "emotion labor" was a thing, I just called it "expectations about roles." Everybody goes into a relationship or parenthood with assumptions about what's important and who's going to do what. When you decide to stay together, you two can make whatever deal works.
posted by wryly at 2:37 PM on October 2, 2016 [6 favorites]
I don't really know a whole lot about this sort of thing, but I'm seeing two POV's about the workload:
(a) Yes, if you're alone, you're doing the entirety of the labor for yourself alone.
(b) On the other hand, if you have a partner: on the one hand, they MIGHT help you out, on the other hand, they might not. And what it may boil down to is that you are doing the workload of TWO people by yourself if you are with someone.
posted by jenfullmoon at 3:07 PM on October 2, 2016 [6 favorites]
(a) Yes, if you're alone, you're doing the entirety of the labor for yourself alone.
(b) On the other hand, if you have a partner: on the one hand, they MIGHT help you out, on the other hand, they might not. And what it may boil down to is that you are doing the workload of TWO people by yourself if you are with someone.
posted by jenfullmoon at 3:07 PM on October 2, 2016 [6 favorites]
I am married to a wonderful man. We have kids. I am often what I like to call the "household manager" for the household. I prefer this to the term "emotional labor" because it's more specific. Household and life management is just that: fixing things when they're broken. Paying bills on time. Getting the laundry done. Changing air filters in the furnace. All that adult stuff. So I will refer to it as "household management".
Before he met me, he was a completely self-sufficient person who fed and clothed himself. He paid his bills and had an apartment and a job and friends and a life before me. And he's still capable of those things.
We have had long conversations about sharing household management responsibilities. And I've realized that he's perfectly capable, but he doesn't do things MY WAY. If he's going to fold the laundry, he's going to do it his way.
OF COURSE MY WAY IS BETTER! Everybody's way is always better than their partner's way! Always! But I can't micromanage him. If he is responsible for getting the car fixed, well, it's on him. And my choice is to either do it and resent it, do it and accept it, or put the responsibility on him and accept that it might not go as I would like.
I understand where you're coming from. YES, I probably do more of this sort of thing than my husband. YES, I resent it sometimes. But sometimes marriage feels unequal when it really isn't. Or it's unequal in very equal ways. There's a lot of stuff that he does that I probably take for granted. For instance, he has taken the kids on an outing so I can be at home to Get Things Done.
My in-laws have a marriage that I would hate. She lets him have his way on most things: what movie they will watch, where and when they'll go on vacation, where to go to dinner, etc. and in exchange her life is taken care of: she doesn't have to worry about money, she doesn't have to work, she's free to do what she wants with her days. Any modern woman would turn her nose up with disapproval. But they are deliriously happy, because the deal works for them.
You know this guy. You have a pretty good idea what the deal is going to be. Will this deal work for you?
If you don't think you can live with this sort of thing, if you don't think you can find a way to accept your man as he is,
posted by cleverevans at 3:39 PM on October 2, 2016 [7 favorites]
Before he met me, he was a completely self-sufficient person who fed and clothed himself. He paid his bills and had an apartment and a job and friends and a life before me. And he's still capable of those things.
We have had long conversations about sharing household management responsibilities. And I've realized that he's perfectly capable, but he doesn't do things MY WAY. If he's going to fold the laundry, he's going to do it his way.
OF COURSE MY WAY IS BETTER! Everybody's way is always better than their partner's way! Always! But I can't micromanage him. If he is responsible for getting the car fixed, well, it's on him. And my choice is to either do it and resent it, do it and accept it, or put the responsibility on him and accept that it might not go as I would like.
I understand where you're coming from. YES, I probably do more of this sort of thing than my husband. YES, I resent it sometimes. But sometimes marriage feels unequal when it really isn't. Or it's unequal in very equal ways. There's a lot of stuff that he does that I probably take for granted. For instance, he has taken the kids on an outing so I can be at home to Get Things Done.
My in-laws have a marriage that I would hate. She lets him have his way on most things: what movie they will watch, where and when they'll go on vacation, where to go to dinner, etc. and in exchange her life is taken care of: she doesn't have to worry about money, she doesn't have to work, she's free to do what she wants with her days. Any modern woman would turn her nose up with disapproval. But they are deliriously happy, because the deal works for them.
You know this guy. You have a pretty good idea what the deal is going to be. Will this deal work for you?
If you don't think you can live with this sort of thing, if you don't think you can find a way to accept your man as he is,
posted by cleverevans at 3:39 PM on October 2, 2016 [7 favorites]
He sounds like a pretty good life partner. He's not perfect. Nobody is. You will never find someone who fits you in every way, even if you did, it would all change in a year. The more time you spend together, the more you can work on finding the balance that works for both of you.
I got married late in life and I am a very independent person who does it for herself in every way. Sometimes, I get tristesse because my partner does or doesn't do something or things don't feel even but, you know, LIFE IS SO MUCH EASIER WITH HIM IN IT. Avenues opened up that weren't possible before. Being by yourself means you get your way but, shit, that path can be fucking hard.
Imagine this, I can't even remember the last time I took the garbage out. Something simple like that is, wow, so awesome. And I bet my husband would say how awesome it is that he eats great food that he didn't cook every night. And that's just the simple, non-emotional support stuff. Just the free time we both get from not having to clean two houses and maintain two whole, separate lives is great, even if it is a bit uneven at times.
And, while I perceive when things feel shitty for me, I bet I don't even blink when I'm getting a bigger piece of pie than my husband. Sometimes, you find what you are looking for if you know what I mean. If you look at your partner with the idea that you are getting the short end of the stick, that's probably what you will find evidence to support.
If things feel uneven, you need to talk about it. My husband and I did and we divided up the chores differently and I felt a LOT better about it. I also make a point to tell him on a regular basis that I notice the work he does and that I appreciate it. I know it may seem like he should just be able to do a chore without a little ego petting and maybe that is true but everybody enjoys being noticed for contributing and it doesn't take much from me to make him feel good about his role in our household.
posted by Foam Pants at 4:18 PM on October 2, 2016 [3 favorites]
I got married late in life and I am a very independent person who does it for herself in every way. Sometimes, I get tristesse because my partner does or doesn't do something or things don't feel even but, you know, LIFE IS SO MUCH EASIER WITH HIM IN IT. Avenues opened up that weren't possible before. Being by yourself means you get your way but, shit, that path can be fucking hard.
Imagine this, I can't even remember the last time I took the garbage out. Something simple like that is, wow, so awesome. And I bet my husband would say how awesome it is that he eats great food that he didn't cook every night. And that's just the simple, non-emotional support stuff. Just the free time we both get from not having to clean two houses and maintain two whole, separate lives is great, even if it is a bit uneven at times.
And, while I perceive when things feel shitty for me, I bet I don't even blink when I'm getting a bigger piece of pie than my husband. Sometimes, you find what you are looking for if you know what I mean. If you look at your partner with the idea that you are getting the short end of the stick, that's probably what you will find evidence to support.
If things feel uneven, you need to talk about it. My husband and I did and we divided up the chores differently and I felt a LOT better about it. I also make a point to tell him on a regular basis that I notice the work he does and that I appreciate it. I know it may seem like he should just be able to do a chore without a little ego petting and maybe that is true but everybody enjoys being noticed for contributing and it doesn't take much from me to make him feel good about his role in our household.
posted by Foam Pants at 4:18 PM on October 2, 2016 [3 favorites]
Just chiming into say that I am another woman who chose to get married but not have children. My partner's parent was trying to convince us that having kids was a way to further knit us together, but I nearly blurted out "are you kidding, having kids would probably break this marriage."
posted by spamandkimchi at 6:55 PM on October 2, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by spamandkimchi at 6:55 PM on October 2, 2016 [1 favorite]
I know couples who have relatively equal marriages, where one partner is just as likely as the other to be the one who responds to my email suggesting a playdate. What I've determined is that 1) both partners are really committed to being equally present in the household management and in the kids' lives 2) the partner who didn't birth the kid spent at least some time being the primary caregiver (it's common amongst people I know for the partner who gave birth to take the first six months of parental leave and for the other partner to take the remaining six) and 3) the person who would be expected to be the default parent (ie usually the mom) has lots of stuff going on and the other partner has to be involved or else shit just literally wouldn't get done.
Sometimes this involves letting a lot of stuff slide. Like we went to a birthday party this weekend and their house was pretty cluttered and there was a grocery store cake and no planned activities for the kids, but it was a great party and the kids just drag all the toys out and make a mess anyway. This group also doesn't do birthday gifts and I just folded up a piece of paper my kid had drawn on and wrote happy birthday as a card.
So it's important to really examine your expectations and figure out what is actually necessary and what you're just doing because you think other people think you should do it. I'm not being facetious here- if you say your partner wouldn't be interested in planning the wedding, is it the type of wedding they actually want? My partner ended up doing so much for our wedding just because I didn't really care about some things. Like he wrote our vows. But if he hadn't wanted to write them I would have just told the officiant to use something standard. And it would have been fine.
I'm the default parent but my partner does as much as I need him to. I freelance and work about 10 or so hours a week from home while my partner works full-time. We've divided everything up in a way that works pretty well for us. I do have to make sure I don't martyr myself and that I get the time I need away from the kids. Sometimes that means sitting back and letting him do things differently than I would when he's the one who's in charge of the kids but it usually works out fine.
It's really hard for me to decide based on your question whether you're catastrophizing because you're anxious about getting married and/or having kids or if this guy truly is unable to work on being an equal partner. It sounds like you have much better executive function than him and he may just never be the "planner". But maybe it would work if he was the "doer"? Like if you make the kids appointments, will he get them dressed and out the door with a snack and a toy to keep them occupied and then engage with them while they're being wild in the waiting room? He'd have to report back the results of the appointment but really, if it came to it, you could have him record the appointment and then listen to it. That's extreme I know but it's something I would do if that's what it took to make family life work with my partner. I cannot imagine not being with him.
But don't have kids just because it seems like the next step or without working this out beforehand. The first years with kids are so exhausting and intense, if that burden isn't shared, life will just be miserable. I guess if I were you I'd take a hard look at how my partner responds when I say "This isn't working. I need your help."
posted by betsybetsy at 7:10 PM on October 2, 2016 [3 favorites]
Sometimes this involves letting a lot of stuff slide. Like we went to a birthday party this weekend and their house was pretty cluttered and there was a grocery store cake and no planned activities for the kids, but it was a great party and the kids just drag all the toys out and make a mess anyway. This group also doesn't do birthday gifts and I just folded up a piece of paper my kid had drawn on and wrote happy birthday as a card.
So it's important to really examine your expectations and figure out what is actually necessary and what you're just doing because you think other people think you should do it. I'm not being facetious here- if you say your partner wouldn't be interested in planning the wedding, is it the type of wedding they actually want? My partner ended up doing so much for our wedding just because I didn't really care about some things. Like he wrote our vows. But if he hadn't wanted to write them I would have just told the officiant to use something standard. And it would have been fine.
I'm the default parent but my partner does as much as I need him to. I freelance and work about 10 or so hours a week from home while my partner works full-time. We've divided everything up in a way that works pretty well for us. I do have to make sure I don't martyr myself and that I get the time I need away from the kids. Sometimes that means sitting back and letting him do things differently than I would when he's the one who's in charge of the kids but it usually works out fine.
It's really hard for me to decide based on your question whether you're catastrophizing because you're anxious about getting married and/or having kids or if this guy truly is unable to work on being an equal partner. It sounds like you have much better executive function than him and he may just never be the "planner". But maybe it would work if he was the "doer"? Like if you make the kids appointments, will he get them dressed and out the door with a snack and a toy to keep them occupied and then engage with them while they're being wild in the waiting room? He'd have to report back the results of the appointment but really, if it came to it, you could have him record the appointment and then listen to it. That's extreme I know but it's something I would do if that's what it took to make family life work with my partner. I cannot imagine not being with him.
But don't have kids just because it seems like the next step or without working this out beforehand. The first years with kids are so exhausting and intense, if that burden isn't shared, life will just be miserable. I guess if I were you I'd take a hard look at how my partner responds when I say "This isn't working. I need your help."
posted by betsybetsy at 7:10 PM on October 2, 2016 [3 favorites]
I had a similar issue after reading the EL thread. After some discussion, what helped us was sitting down and writing out an actual list of all the household tasks, and how often they had to be done, and then assigning them to each person.
It was shocking to me what a difference that made- these tasks were all in my head, but they were not in their head at all- they just never even noticed. But once it was on paper they did their tasks faithfully and the fights diminished hugely. I'd say the labour split is 40-60 now, which is wayyyy better than before.
The rationale that led to the following split is that the tidying and detail stuff is constant and takes tons of time, but since Person A has a more detail-oriented eye, it will pretty much always fall to Person A because Person B just won't notice it. Therefore Person B does the gross jobs to compensate. Trading off the cat litter made it worth it, oh boy.
Person A does 60%, but mostly gets to do clean aesthetic jobs:
Load/unload dishwasher & clean kitchen (daily / weekly)
Clean bathroom sink and toilet (weekly)
Daily tidying
Details and freshening (changing sheets and towels, rearranging, etc) to make things nice (weekly)
Person B does 40%, but gets all the gross jobs to compensate for doing less overall:
Trash & recycling (weekly)
Cat litter (daily poop scooping, and weekly washout)
Vacuuming (weekly)
All car-related things (as needed)
We are pretty good at being equal with the laundry (we bought extra towels, underwear, bedding, and socks, so we can go a long time without laundry emergencies) , cooking (we subscribe to a meal service that makes cooking fun and generates leftovers), and grocery shopping (we usually do it together and enjoy it), so those tasks aren't officially divided up.
posted by pseudostrabismus at 7:35 PM on October 2, 2016 [2 favorites]
It was shocking to me what a difference that made- these tasks were all in my head, but they were not in their head at all- they just never even noticed. But once it was on paper they did their tasks faithfully and the fights diminished hugely. I'd say the labour split is 40-60 now, which is wayyyy better than before.
The rationale that led to the following split is that the tidying and detail stuff is constant and takes tons of time, but since Person A has a more detail-oriented eye, it will pretty much always fall to Person A because Person B just won't notice it. Therefore Person B does the gross jobs to compensate. Trading off the cat litter made it worth it, oh boy.
Person A does 60%, but mostly gets to do clean aesthetic jobs:
Load/unload dishwasher & clean kitchen (daily / weekly)
Clean bathroom sink and toilet (weekly)
Daily tidying
Details and freshening (changing sheets and towels, rearranging, etc) to make things nice (weekly)
Person B does 40%, but gets all the gross jobs to compensate for doing less overall:
Trash & recycling (weekly)
Cat litter (daily poop scooping, and weekly washout)
Vacuuming (weekly)
All car-related things (as needed)
We are pretty good at being equal with the laundry (we bought extra towels, underwear, bedding, and socks, so we can go a long time without laundry emergencies) , cooking (we subscribe to a meal service that makes cooking fun and generates leftovers), and grocery shopping (we usually do it together and enjoy it), so those tasks aren't officially divided up.
posted by pseudostrabismus at 7:35 PM on October 2, 2016 [2 favorites]
I don't have much experience in this area, but watching my parents' marriage, I've become skeptical of marriage. My mother earned much more than my father did, and yet she did practically all the housework. As a child, I was very resentful of my father as he was frequently late picking me up, and I would often be the last child waiting at the school compound. My father has never learned how to cook. If my mother were writing in this thread however, she would say that you should get married, and that being alone would probably suck. Yes, and it's that belief that made her stay in the marriage, even though I know she never had a spare minute for herself in decades, and it took a serious toll on her health. But she was brought up to believe that that was the only choice she had for her, or that was the 'correct' or 'best' option.
There's a difference between the objective reality (actual scientific benefits that being married to someone brings) versus your perception (what your belief system makes you think you're gaining from marriage). I see that a lot in this thread. Maybe you should do a trial run or study the issue a little more. And if you do decide to get married, do not become so dependent that it becomes too difficult to leave.
posted by kinoeye at 8:13 PM on October 2, 2016 [5 favorites]
There's a difference between the objective reality (actual scientific benefits that being married to someone brings) versus your perception (what your belief system makes you think you're gaining from marriage). I see that a lot in this thread. Maybe you should do a trial run or study the issue a little more. And if you do decide to get married, do not become so dependent that it becomes too difficult to leave.
posted by kinoeye at 8:13 PM on October 2, 2016 [5 favorites]
I think you've set up a false dichotomy here, and while I don't want to be on to tell you to just care less, I do encourage you to not look at the situation with quite the all-or-nothing attitude that you've presented here.
I am a woman, married to a man, with children. I am a very type-A, get-things-done kind of person, as well as someone who tends to believe that certain things should be done (like Christmas cards) because I've picked up on them from the culture around me. My husband is an amazing human being, supportive and loving and feminist and somehow manages to step over the laundry basket even when I put it in the way of the staircase so that whoever heads upstairs next must either carry it up or actively avoid the task. At times - particularly after reading the emotional labor thread - I have wound up furious at how I'm doing 90% of everything in this house and why is it all falling to me? And then I've had a couple of realizations.
One, a big problem with emotional labor is that the person who doesn't see it truly doesn't see it, so my husband doesn't see the work that goes into the Christmas cards and I can be passive aggressive about that or I can talk to him about it like a grown-up. I can make Rube Goldberg machines with the laundry basket or I can ask him to carry it up when I see him heading towards the stairs. I can huff and fume and assume that he should just know already or I can use my words like I ask my 2-year-old to do.
This realization came almost a year ago, when I felt like I was handling a LOT. I'd been home with kids for almost three years, unhappily; I did 100% of all the household tasks aside from yardwork and shoveling; I resented any time that he took for himself outside of work because I was so worn down with my own tasks; and I was dealing with the very stressful tail end of some medical complications that had been in our lives for three years. When all of this came out in the open and I was clear about how much I felt like I was dealing with where he wasn't pulling his weight, he shocked me by having a list of things of his own that hadn't even been on my radar. He'd been struggling at work and rather than come home and dump it on me, knowing I was struggling too, he just swallowed it and put on a happy face every day. He pointed out some very wicked mood swings I'd been having that left him feeling like he was walking on eggshells a lot. There were multiple instances of household management type tasks that he'd been dealing with behind the scenes that were disappointing or expensive or time-consuming that had never even bubbled up into my consciousness, because he was taking care of them. He was dealing with his own experience of frustration and resentment at all the things whose emotional labor I just literally didn't even see.
My point is, there are certainly situations where someone is blatantly basking in the privilege of letting someone else do all of their emotional labor and household management for them, but more commonly it's a bit more nuanced than that. The whole concept of emotional labor involves there being blind spots in a person's life when they are coupled, because two heads are better than one and many hands make light work, and I can almost guarantee that there are things that your boyfriend is dealing with about YOU that are as frustrating as the things you've listed here about him. Can you think what those might be? Would you like him to be evaluating the future of your relationship based on some of those things, which might be personality quirks that are very hard for you to identify and overcome rather than something you're just letting him carry for you?
Second, I realized, why is my way better? I was a stay at home mom for three years. Now I am the breadwinner, and my husband is a stay at home dad. Let me tell you, we do things differently. The first week, this drove me nuts. Then I realized that in that week, both my kids learned how to climb the ladder all the way to the top of the tall slide AND my oldest can suddenly write her name and draw potato people, and my youngest is no longer living off of baby food pouches but is eating real food with a fork and using a napkin. Ok, so the meal plan wasn't adhered to and the dusting didn't get done, but the kids had a total of eight trips to the park in five days and I didn't have to wash a single dish. This looks different from when I did it, but the kids are happy and the laundry all got done that weekend (and not by me) so...why was my schedule right and his was wrong? Maybe it's just a matter of reframing the conversation. If you're planning a wedding where he is not participating, is it because everything is going how you want it to go and you're just asking him to do the busy work? Is he disenfranchised from the process because you're trying to get him on your bandwagon instead of driving the mule team together? The things you describe him hypothetically failing at are all instances of his failing to live up to some expectation that you have, but - but is that expectation both fair and jointly determined?
To paraphrase Sebastian, "If you want something done [right], you've got to do it yourself." I don't think it's reasonable to get to expect someone else to do something the same way you would. My husband prefers to do a task from start to finish and that means doing the laundry, folding it, walking it upstairs and putting it away right then, instead of leaving the basket at the bottom of the stairs for the next trip someone makes upstairs, where the basket will be left on the bed until I have some time to put it away, which might mean that it will get moved three or four times before it's truly emptied. It seems to me like my way is more efficient because it combines trips up the stairs which is something that can be hard for me. My husband's way seems more efficient to him because he is finishing a job in its entirety instead of in bits and pieces, and not shuffling a basket around without putting clothes away. Which one of us is right? Both of us.
I've started trying to accept the outcome and not the process. I want my four year old to stop wailing for someone to come tuck her blankets around her in the middle of the night. At first, I was trying to control the "how" we got there, because I didn't want to just let her yell until she fell back asleep because I was afraid she'd wake up her brother. I didn't want her to climb into my bed at night because it disturbs my sleep. I didn't want to add another nightlight to the room because I didn't think it'd help. Our deal is that the parent who isn't working for money gets up with the kids at night, but here I was telling him how to solve this problem (or rather, how not to) and doing all the emotional labor of figuring out how to solve the problem and then explaining it to him and helping him implement it. So I backed off. I said, I don't care how you solve the problem. I am sleeping in the guest room until it's fixed so that my sleep is not disturbed since I need to be able to concentrate at work, and how you get her to stop making that god-awful noise at 4 a.m. is your problem. (It helps that we are both on the same page that we prefer to sleep in our bed together with no children in it, so I'm not banished to the guest room indefinitely or anything). Anyway, I don't actually know what he did to fix it, but it hasn't happened for a while now and I got to not worry about it. So I guess my third point is that a lot of the emotional labor is stuff that emotional laborers say they don't want to deal with, but then they also won't let go of it because there's this idea that only they know how to actually do it. You don't get to have it both ways. This is a really hard thing to learn without active practice handing over these kinds of tasks to another adult.
Fourth, I think a lot of emotional labor is assigned to romantic relationships when it properly belongs somewhere else. Christmas cards or gifts and wedding planning are great examples. I wish I had eloped, but it had nothing to do with my husband - I did a lot of work that I didn't want to do to please people in my family of origin. That wasn't his fault and really had nothing to do with him. Are you sure that your concerns over wedding planning are fairly assigned to your boyfriend, and not to other peoples' expectations? What about your relationship to his extended family? What about things like researching school districts - is that really a thing you (plural) need to do at all? Cultural baggage does add a lot of assumptions to a woman's familial position, but that would be true of this guy or another guy or even Crone Island, which will come along with its own set of labels and expectations. You can't control that - you'll just have to address them when they come up. Do you think this guy will be an ally in addressing those assumptions or not?
The great thing is that all of these things are solvable with communication. Can you have honest, sometimes painful, conversations with this guy without either of you feeling threatened or saying things you later regret? Do you feel like that kind of emotional place in your relationship is a safe space? Do you believe that the resolutions that come out of those conversations are sincere and acted upon, by both of you? Do you trust him? Do you trust yourself with his heart? My husband will always have flaws, and so will I, but I believe that we both have a sincere respect for one another and have each other's best interests at heart. I can roll my eyes at him about the laundry basket, or I can non-confrontationally talk to him about it and realize that his way is different but not therefore automatically worse. Assuming the best intentions of the other person can work absolute wonders for these kinds of problems, and I encourage you to have that assumption as you move forward with your decision.
posted by peanut_mcgillicuty at 8:22 PM on October 2, 2016 [48 favorites]
I am a woman, married to a man, with children. I am a very type-A, get-things-done kind of person, as well as someone who tends to believe that certain things should be done (like Christmas cards) because I've picked up on them from the culture around me. My husband is an amazing human being, supportive and loving and feminist and somehow manages to step over the laundry basket even when I put it in the way of the staircase so that whoever heads upstairs next must either carry it up or actively avoid the task. At times - particularly after reading the emotional labor thread - I have wound up furious at how I'm doing 90% of everything in this house and why is it all falling to me? And then I've had a couple of realizations.
One, a big problem with emotional labor is that the person who doesn't see it truly doesn't see it, so my husband doesn't see the work that goes into the Christmas cards and I can be passive aggressive about that or I can talk to him about it like a grown-up. I can make Rube Goldberg machines with the laundry basket or I can ask him to carry it up when I see him heading towards the stairs. I can huff and fume and assume that he should just know already or I can use my words like I ask my 2-year-old to do.
This realization came almost a year ago, when I felt like I was handling a LOT. I'd been home with kids for almost three years, unhappily; I did 100% of all the household tasks aside from yardwork and shoveling; I resented any time that he took for himself outside of work because I was so worn down with my own tasks; and I was dealing with the very stressful tail end of some medical complications that had been in our lives for three years. When all of this came out in the open and I was clear about how much I felt like I was dealing with where he wasn't pulling his weight, he shocked me by having a list of things of his own that hadn't even been on my radar. He'd been struggling at work and rather than come home and dump it on me, knowing I was struggling too, he just swallowed it and put on a happy face every day. He pointed out some very wicked mood swings I'd been having that left him feeling like he was walking on eggshells a lot. There were multiple instances of household management type tasks that he'd been dealing with behind the scenes that were disappointing or expensive or time-consuming that had never even bubbled up into my consciousness, because he was taking care of them. He was dealing with his own experience of frustration and resentment at all the things whose emotional labor I just literally didn't even see.
My point is, there are certainly situations where someone is blatantly basking in the privilege of letting someone else do all of their emotional labor and household management for them, but more commonly it's a bit more nuanced than that. The whole concept of emotional labor involves there being blind spots in a person's life when they are coupled, because two heads are better than one and many hands make light work, and I can almost guarantee that there are things that your boyfriend is dealing with about YOU that are as frustrating as the things you've listed here about him. Can you think what those might be? Would you like him to be evaluating the future of your relationship based on some of those things, which might be personality quirks that are very hard for you to identify and overcome rather than something you're just letting him carry for you?
Second, I realized, why is my way better? I was a stay at home mom for three years. Now I am the breadwinner, and my husband is a stay at home dad. Let me tell you, we do things differently. The first week, this drove me nuts. Then I realized that in that week, both my kids learned how to climb the ladder all the way to the top of the tall slide AND my oldest can suddenly write her name and draw potato people, and my youngest is no longer living off of baby food pouches but is eating real food with a fork and using a napkin. Ok, so the meal plan wasn't adhered to and the dusting didn't get done, but the kids had a total of eight trips to the park in five days and I didn't have to wash a single dish. This looks different from when I did it, but the kids are happy and the laundry all got done that weekend (and not by me) so...why was my schedule right and his was wrong? Maybe it's just a matter of reframing the conversation. If you're planning a wedding where he is not participating, is it because everything is going how you want it to go and you're just asking him to do the busy work? Is he disenfranchised from the process because you're trying to get him on your bandwagon instead of driving the mule team together? The things you describe him hypothetically failing at are all instances of his failing to live up to some expectation that you have, but - but is that expectation both fair and jointly determined?
To paraphrase Sebastian, "If you want something done [right], you've got to do it yourself." I don't think it's reasonable to get to expect someone else to do something the same way you would. My husband prefers to do a task from start to finish and that means doing the laundry, folding it, walking it upstairs and putting it away right then, instead of leaving the basket at the bottom of the stairs for the next trip someone makes upstairs, where the basket will be left on the bed until I have some time to put it away, which might mean that it will get moved three or four times before it's truly emptied. It seems to me like my way is more efficient because it combines trips up the stairs which is something that can be hard for me. My husband's way seems more efficient to him because he is finishing a job in its entirety instead of in bits and pieces, and not shuffling a basket around without putting clothes away. Which one of us is right? Both of us.
I've started trying to accept the outcome and not the process. I want my four year old to stop wailing for someone to come tuck her blankets around her in the middle of the night. At first, I was trying to control the "how" we got there, because I didn't want to just let her yell until she fell back asleep because I was afraid she'd wake up her brother. I didn't want her to climb into my bed at night because it disturbs my sleep. I didn't want to add another nightlight to the room because I didn't think it'd help. Our deal is that the parent who isn't working for money gets up with the kids at night, but here I was telling him how to solve this problem (or rather, how not to) and doing all the emotional labor of figuring out how to solve the problem and then explaining it to him and helping him implement it. So I backed off. I said, I don't care how you solve the problem. I am sleeping in the guest room until it's fixed so that my sleep is not disturbed since I need to be able to concentrate at work, and how you get her to stop making that god-awful noise at 4 a.m. is your problem. (It helps that we are both on the same page that we prefer to sleep in our bed together with no children in it, so I'm not banished to the guest room indefinitely or anything). Anyway, I don't actually know what he did to fix it, but it hasn't happened for a while now and I got to not worry about it. So I guess my third point is that a lot of the emotional labor is stuff that emotional laborers say they don't want to deal with, but then they also won't let go of it because there's this idea that only they know how to actually do it. You don't get to have it both ways. This is a really hard thing to learn without active practice handing over these kinds of tasks to another adult.
Fourth, I think a lot of emotional labor is assigned to romantic relationships when it properly belongs somewhere else. Christmas cards or gifts and wedding planning are great examples. I wish I had eloped, but it had nothing to do with my husband - I did a lot of work that I didn't want to do to please people in my family of origin. That wasn't his fault and really had nothing to do with him. Are you sure that your concerns over wedding planning are fairly assigned to your boyfriend, and not to other peoples' expectations? What about your relationship to his extended family? What about things like researching school districts - is that really a thing you (plural) need to do at all? Cultural baggage does add a lot of assumptions to a woman's familial position, but that would be true of this guy or another guy or even Crone Island, which will come along with its own set of labels and expectations. You can't control that - you'll just have to address them when they come up. Do you think this guy will be an ally in addressing those assumptions or not?
The great thing is that all of these things are solvable with communication. Can you have honest, sometimes painful, conversations with this guy without either of you feeling threatened or saying things you later regret? Do you feel like that kind of emotional place in your relationship is a safe space? Do you believe that the resolutions that come out of those conversations are sincere and acted upon, by both of you? Do you trust him? Do you trust yourself with his heart? My husband will always have flaws, and so will I, but I believe that we both have a sincere respect for one another and have each other's best interests at heart. I can roll my eyes at him about the laundry basket, or I can non-confrontationally talk to him about it and realize that his way is different but not therefore automatically worse. Assuming the best intentions of the other person can work absolute wonders for these kinds of problems, and I encourage you to have that assumption as you move forward with your decision.
posted by peanut_mcgillicuty at 8:22 PM on October 2, 2016 [48 favorites]
He sounds like the kind of guy to step up if you actually totally leave it to him and the kind of guy to continue to learn and to be frank you'd be a fool to toss this one back into the ocean.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 9:10 PM on October 2, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by St. Peepsburg at 9:10 PM on October 2, 2016 [1 favorite]
Kudos to peanut_mcgillicuty for that really honest comment.
I know emotional labor is a thing, but I also know I rather suck at it, for a woman. I have seen marriages where, from the outside, the wife seems like a total shrew. She is overworked contributing 99% to the marriage but doesn't see what the husband contributes, nor does she give him space to contribute because he'd just fuck it up- even though it just means he wouldn't do it how she would. Sure the kid is wearing two different socks and the dishwahser wasn't loaded to 100% peak efficiency. But the kid was dressed and the dishes were done.
Right now we're planning a wedding and if I assign half the planning to him, there's a decent chance we'll end up scrambling because he doesn't really understand the lead time necessary to book venues and call florists and caterers and gets caught off guard.
Can you, you know, say honey, this has to be done by whatever date? You could even build in a buffer for him of an extra month. The flowers have to be reserved six months ahead of time? Tell him it has to be done seven months before. Then you are giving him space to own the process.
posted by Monday at 9:15 PM on October 2, 2016 [2 favorites]
I know emotional labor is a thing, but I also know I rather suck at it, for a woman. I have seen marriages where, from the outside, the wife seems like a total shrew. She is overworked contributing 99% to the marriage but doesn't see what the husband contributes, nor does she give him space to contribute because he'd just fuck it up- even though it just means he wouldn't do it how she would. Sure the kid is wearing two different socks and the dishwahser wasn't loaded to 100% peak efficiency. But the kid was dressed and the dishes were done.
Right now we're planning a wedding and if I assign half the planning to him, there's a decent chance we'll end up scrambling because he doesn't really understand the lead time necessary to book venues and call florists and caterers and gets caught off guard.
Can you, you know, say honey, this has to be done by whatever date? You could even build in a buffer for him of an extra month. The flowers have to be reserved six months ahead of time? Tell him it has to be done seven months before. Then you are giving him space to own the process.
posted by Monday at 9:15 PM on October 2, 2016 [2 favorites]
Please postpone the wedding indefinitely. Look at your partner, marriage and kids all as separate issues. Do you love him? Does him being around make you more or less happy overall? Really let him know how stressed you are about these problems. Figure all that out, then worry about whether marriage or a big ceremony are what you want. You don't have to live together, even if you marry. If kids are super important to you they don't need to be with him, you could even have them alone. You could have foster kids. It's likely with almost any male partner more than half of the share of work of raising kids will fall to you. Is that what you want?
Yeah he sounds like a fairly nice guy from my armchair on the internet but in this thread only you know him and can figure out if being with him is best for you. Honestly surprised to see all the answers saying you're not giving him enough credit and should be happy with your lot. Obviously you're unhappy about some things and have every right to be. Good luck figuring out what's best for you, only you can. Talk to him! Show him this thread!
posted by faustian slip at 1:57 AM on October 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
Yeah he sounds like a fairly nice guy from my armchair on the internet but in this thread only you know him and can figure out if being with him is best for you. Honestly surprised to see all the answers saying you're not giving him enough credit and should be happy with your lot. Obviously you're unhappy about some things and have every right to be. Good luck figuring out what's best for you, only you can. Talk to him! Show him this thread!
posted by faustian slip at 1:57 AM on October 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
Can you, you know, say honey, this has to be done by whatever date? You could even build in a buffer for him of an extra month. The flowers have to be reserved six months ahead of time? Tell him it has to be done seven months before. Then you are giving him space to own the process.
No, that's not him owning the process, that's you having to manage him like a semi-competent employee.
posted by winna at 6:07 AM on October 3, 2016 [26 favorites]
No, that's not him owning the process, that's you having to manage him like a semi-competent employee.
posted by winna at 6:07 AM on October 3, 2016 [26 favorites]
This isn't a "care less" response. It's a response coming from ten years in a relationship (one that includes three kids).
There are many logistical things in his own life that I am just plain not getting involved in as a matter of principle because I am not his keeper and he is a grown ass man.
This can certainly continue for the duration of a relationship. My partner and I (coming on ten years) have big swathes of our lives that are functionally ours and ours along to deal with. You don't have to expect that this needs to change when you decide to be partners.
In general, I can rely on him to get things done eventually, but it will be more stressful and less smooth than if I did it myself. Certain things that have to get done right and on time like vaccinations and school registrations will always have to be things on my plate. And part of me resents that.
You can practice letting go of a need to control and manage items that get sorted onto his list rather than to yours. A little league game gets misscheduled. OK. The world doesn't collapse. If he feels guilty for the snafu, then the next time he'll either make changes to be more prepared or he won't.
Put another way, there's no rule that says both parties in a relationship put equal emphasis on getting things done in a specific way. If that specificity is essential for you, articulate that. If that specificity is something you can learn to bend as you see fit, articulate that. Anecdotally, this means that I grind my teeth reminding my partner to fill out his mail ballot, and then the day comes that it's due and he ends up in a panic to get it in. Ten years ago I would have scrambled to help. Now, I let him go about his business how best he chooses. We're both happier for it.
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 10:27 AM on October 3, 2016 [3 favorites]
There are many logistical things in his own life that I am just plain not getting involved in as a matter of principle because I am not his keeper and he is a grown ass man.
This can certainly continue for the duration of a relationship. My partner and I (coming on ten years) have big swathes of our lives that are functionally ours and ours along to deal with. You don't have to expect that this needs to change when you decide to be partners.
In general, I can rely on him to get things done eventually, but it will be more stressful and less smooth than if I did it myself. Certain things that have to get done right and on time like vaccinations and school registrations will always have to be things on my plate. And part of me resents that.
You can practice letting go of a need to control and manage items that get sorted onto his list rather than to yours. A little league game gets misscheduled. OK. The world doesn't collapse. If he feels guilty for the snafu, then the next time he'll either make changes to be more prepared or he won't.
Put another way, there's no rule that says both parties in a relationship put equal emphasis on getting things done in a specific way. If that specificity is essential for you, articulate that. If that specificity is something you can learn to bend as you see fit, articulate that. Anecdotally, this means that I grind my teeth reminding my partner to fill out his mail ballot, and then the day comes that it's due and he ends up in a panic to get it in. Ten years ago I would have scrambled to help. Now, I let him go about his business how best he chooses. We're both happier for it.
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 10:27 AM on October 3, 2016 [3 favorites]
This is all pretty hazy in my own mind, but basically I have a "gut line" that goes something like this:
1. If his immaturity/laziness/indifference only hurts me and makes me more tired or slightly more grumpy/naggy, it's basically okay in the overall scheme of things as long as I still feel like having sex with him and being affectionate with him. (If I no longer feel those things, something is wrong and he needs to correct it. If that means he needs to pick up all his cups for a week before I feel the spark returning, so be it.) If this means most of the time in daily life he's not all there, but once a week/month he does something REALLY nice, well, okay. If it means he takes the car in and buys me flowers, I can probably live with that.
2. If his immaturity/laziness/indifference causes pain to our children, majorly embarrasses me in public or in front of my family, or causes us to have financial troubles that directly affect my/our children's quality of life, he's dangerously, dangerously close to getting the boot. One or two more strikes and not only is the sex life dead, the trust is dead and the relationship is dead. Enough of this and I am quite sure I want him gone.
I agree with jenfullmoon and Owlcat and I think they have the best and most succinct way of looking at this. Are you doing more work with him in your life, or less work? I mean, yes, maybe you're doing more laundry/dishes, but now you never have to take the car in or change the lightbulbs ever again. Or maybe now you have to change the lightbulbs, fix the car, do laundry for both of you, and do the dishes. Not great. That's probably what it comes down to, ultimately. If you're literally doing everything for two people, bail.
posted by stockpuppet at 12:56 PM on October 3, 2016 [5 favorites]
1. If his immaturity/laziness/indifference only hurts me and makes me more tired or slightly more grumpy/naggy, it's basically okay in the overall scheme of things as long as I still feel like having sex with him and being affectionate with him. (If I no longer feel those things, something is wrong and he needs to correct it. If that means he needs to pick up all his cups for a week before I feel the spark returning, so be it.) If this means most of the time in daily life he's not all there, but once a week/month he does something REALLY nice, well, okay. If it means he takes the car in and buys me flowers, I can probably live with that.
2. If his immaturity/laziness/indifference causes pain to our children, majorly embarrasses me in public or in front of my family, or causes us to have financial troubles that directly affect my/our children's quality of life, he's dangerously, dangerously close to getting the boot. One or two more strikes and not only is the sex life dead, the trust is dead and the relationship is dead. Enough of this and I am quite sure I want him gone.
I agree with jenfullmoon and Owlcat and I think they have the best and most succinct way of looking at this. Are you doing more work with him in your life, or less work? I mean, yes, maybe you're doing more laundry/dishes, but now you never have to take the car in or change the lightbulbs ever again. Or maybe now you have to change the lightbulbs, fix the car, do laundry for both of you, and do the dishes. Not great. That's probably what it comes down to, ultimately. If you're literally doing everything for two people, bail.
posted by stockpuppet at 12:56 PM on October 3, 2016 [5 favorites]
Have you seen the @manwhohasitall Twitter feed? It pretty effectively lambasts the idea that women should be thrilled to have a partner who actually does some of the housework. Like this one for example.
My vote is for Crone Island. But I'm not you.
posted by a strong female character at 6:12 PM on October 3, 2016 [2 favorites]
My vote is for Crone Island. But I'm not you.
posted by a strong female character at 6:12 PM on October 3, 2016 [2 favorites]
Have the honest and open conversation with him; this has to change, or you've gotta go.
Before doing that, yeah, realize that there are more than two choices here; it's not marry this person or forever single as a one-or-the-other kind of outcome. There are other people, and the reasonable choices here seem like:
- I'm with this guy, let's see what the future holds.
- I'm with this guy for another X months, and if he doesn't shape up, yeah.
- I'm done with this guy, let's see what the future holds.
posted by talldean at 3:38 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
Before doing that, yeah, realize that there are more than two choices here; it's not marry this person or forever single as a one-or-the-other kind of outcome. There are other people, and the reasonable choices here seem like:
- I'm with this guy, let's see what the future holds.
- I'm with this guy for another X months, and if he doesn't shape up, yeah.
- I'm done with this guy, let's see what the future holds.
posted by talldean at 3:38 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
Listen, I'm married to a guy like this. He is so sweet, but sometimes so frustrating. But here's the thing: I love him, he's a great father, and he's a 95% good husband. Do you really love your guy? Then marry him, and work on it together.
My dude and I did couples counseling: it helped. We talk a lot: it helps. I make it very clear to him when I need him to take over, and he does it. I may be the one who makes sure the bills are paid on time, but he treats me like a queen and gets up early to go get me Starbucks every weekend. When I'm sick, he takes better care of me than my own mother.
It really motivated my dude to do better when I explained to him how much anxiety and panic and depression it caused me when he failed to pull his weight. I really can't over-emphasize how important it is to just explain how it affects you.
posted by Groovymomma at 4:27 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]
My dude and I did couples counseling: it helped. We talk a lot: it helps. I make it very clear to him when I need him to take over, and he does it. I may be the one who makes sure the bills are paid on time, but he treats me like a queen and gets up early to go get me Starbucks every weekend. When I'm sick, he takes better care of me than my own mother.
It really motivated my dude to do better when I explained to him how much anxiety and panic and depression it caused me when he failed to pull his weight. I really can't over-emphasize how important it is to just explain how it affects you.
posted by Groovymomma at 4:27 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]
I really can't over-emphasize how important it is to just explain how it affects you.
Groovymomma nails it. It's his response AFTER you explain why this is tearing you apart, that matters.
It's not about (for example) how often he just leaves his dirty dishes in the sink, and trying to get better for cleanliness' sake. It's about how he responds to clear and specific feedback from you about how it makes you feel when, every time, his dish-leaving habits make you feel disrespected and devalued. It's now an informed response. Once he knows the upset his behavior causes in you, regardless of whether it's justified (maybe as a kid, you were the de facto kitchen slave or something, and that frustration and resentment never left you), it is 100% his choice as to how to proceed.
If I tell a Significant Person (partner, or anyone of consequence), "When you do X, it makes me feel Y," (and Y = painful, bad, negative thing that We Have Talked About), and that person DOES NOT CHANGE, and even continues the behavior.... then it stops being "he's lazy/ignorant/whatever" and starts being, "he does not care about me."
THAT's when things go to shit, and the path to recovery becomes very hard to find.
posted by I_Love_Bananas at 4:44 AM on October 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
Groovymomma nails it. It's his response AFTER you explain why this is tearing you apart, that matters.
It's not about (for example) how often he just leaves his dirty dishes in the sink, and trying to get better for cleanliness' sake. It's about how he responds to clear and specific feedback from you about how it makes you feel when, every time, his dish-leaving habits make you feel disrespected and devalued. It's now an informed response. Once he knows the upset his behavior causes in you, regardless of whether it's justified (maybe as a kid, you were the de facto kitchen slave or something, and that frustration and resentment never left you), it is 100% his choice as to how to proceed.
If I tell a Significant Person (partner, or anyone of consequence), "When you do X, it makes me feel Y," (and Y = painful, bad, negative thing that We Have Talked About), and that person DOES NOT CHANGE, and even continues the behavior.... then it stops being "he's lazy/ignorant/whatever" and starts being, "he does not care about me."
THAT's when things go to shit, and the path to recovery becomes very hard to find.
posted by I_Love_Bananas at 4:44 AM on October 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
You have more choices than you think you do and it might be interesting to spend some time thinking about why you've narrowed it down to these two (relatively extreme) options.
posted by terretu at 2:17 AM on October 2, 2016 [48 favorites]