Salary is based on degree status. What do you currently make?
August 18, 2016 4:40 PM Subscribe
Pretty basic. Applied for a job in a technical field. It said, degree required so I was surprised I got an email and it looked like a three person interview set up pretty quickly. Then it got weird.
I was asked to resend my resume and degree status, and did. Interview invite came back.
I'm not in the technical field right now; I've been biding my time over in the Marketing Industry I can stretch to be relevant in the technical field (the part where I'm managing people and projects, not just projects and organizing team mates).
After everything was set up, I got a late breaking email: what is my salary and what do I expect? I sent back only a requirement.
I got back a note saying that "the position requires an advanced degree. Please send your current compensation."
Every single job hunt article says don't tell what you make. Goody for them. I've been job hunting for nearly four years now while biding my time at crap wages and I have yet to meet anyone who would go forward without that information. My little friends say lie.
I finally told these interviewers to withdraw me. The fact that I'm making half of what I'm telling them I know is fair compensation for their position certainly isn't going to do me any good... Right?
How can I look for a fair paying job when I'm making crap money and future employers somehow see that as relevant?
I was asked to resend my resume and degree status, and did. Interview invite came back.
I'm not in the technical field right now; I've been biding my time over in the Marketing Industry I can stretch to be relevant in the technical field (the part where I'm managing people and projects, not just projects and organizing team mates).
After everything was set up, I got a late breaking email: what is my salary and what do I expect? I sent back only a requirement.
I got back a note saying that "the position requires an advanced degree. Please send your current compensation."
Every single job hunt article says don't tell what you make. Goody for them. I've been job hunting for nearly four years now while biding my time at crap wages and I have yet to meet anyone who would go forward without that information. My little friends say lie.
I finally told these interviewers to withdraw me. The fact that I'm making half of what I'm telling them I know is fair compensation for their position certainly isn't going to do me any good... Right?
How can I look for a fair paying job when I'm making crap money and future employers somehow see that as relevant?
Best answer: Unless they are idiots, it sounds to me like they are trying to make you feel unqualified so they can get you at a cheaper rate.
Tell them you will discuss compensation after the interview(s) when you have a clearer picture of the position and work required. Explain that current compensation is not relevant because it is a different role.
tl;dr: don't let them bully you.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 4:56 PM on August 18, 2016 [38 favorites]
Tell them you will discuss compensation after the interview(s) when you have a clearer picture of the position and work required. Explain that current compensation is not relevant because it is a different role.
tl;dr: don't let them bully you.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 4:56 PM on August 18, 2016 [38 favorites]
"I understand that you have internal requirements in your hiring process. I will not provide you with my current salary. I hope you will give me a chance to prove that I am capable of performing the tasks you have outlined for this position at a fair wage. If not, thank you for your time."
Next time, don't withdraw. Make them say no. You have nothing to lose but a couple of hours of interviewing and everything to gain. And don't lie about easily verifiable binary qualifications (i.e., you either have a degree or you don't; that's different from "Well, I only have two years of experience with this program and they want three...").
posted by Etrigan at 5:00 PM on August 18, 2016 [7 favorites]
Next time, don't withdraw. Make them say no. You have nothing to lose but a couple of hours of interviewing and everything to gain. And don't lie about easily verifiable binary qualifications (i.e., you either have a degree or you don't; that's different from "Well, I only have two years of experience with this program and they want three...").
posted by Etrigan at 5:00 PM on August 18, 2016 [7 favorites]
Best answer: I don't think you should have withdrawn. They tried to get you to blink on the salary, and you just took yourself out of the running. I think you can be tougher next time.
I got back a note saying that "the position requires an advanced degree. Please send your current compensation."
Send something back along the lines of "I understand that and have made my education level clear. My requirements are X, please let me know if you'd still like to interview me on that basis".
Don't address the refusal to provide, don't even discuss it. They either interview you on that basis or they don't .If they DO interview you and they ask in the interview say "I'm not sure that's relevant as it is a very different role. My requirements are X". Repeat ad infinitum.
posted by Brockles at 5:03 PM on August 18, 2016 [12 favorites]
I got back a note saying that "the position requires an advanced degree. Please send your current compensation."
Send something back along the lines of "I understand that and have made my education level clear. My requirements are X, please let me know if you'd still like to interview me on that basis".
Don't address the refusal to provide, don't even discuss it. They either interview you on that basis or they don't .If they DO interview you and they ask in the interview say "I'm not sure that's relevant as it is a very different role. My requirements are X". Repeat ad infinitum.
posted by Brockles at 5:03 PM on August 18, 2016 [12 favorites]
Response by poster: Lie = current salary and compensation package.
posted by tilde at 5:04 PM on August 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by tilde at 5:04 PM on August 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
Go with what Brockles said instead of dropping out of the process completely - a fair number of HR managers will move the process forward based on expectations without receiving a salary history.
And in the long term, really do consider getting a degree. In some industries, particularly in highly educated markets, places that entertain hiring "undercredentialed" applicants are gongshows that can't attract or retain personnel with industry-standard credentials for one reason or another. Not always, but sometimes.
posted by blerghamot at 5:07 PM on August 18, 2016 [3 favorites]
And in the long term, really do consider getting a degree. In some industries, particularly in highly educated markets, places that entertain hiring "undercredentialed" applicants are gongshows that can't attract or retain personnel with industry-standard credentials for one reason or another. Not always, but sometimes.
posted by blerghamot at 5:07 PM on August 18, 2016 [3 favorites]
I'd probably just lie, because it's a bullshit question and I don't think that people asking bullshit questions deserve honest answers or the opportunity to penalize people for refusing to answer them, but if the lie wouldn't be plausible given your current position, then I think the more direct approach -- "My current compensation is not relevant as it is in a different field; I would consider an offer at or near $XX" -- would be the way to go. You probably don't want to work for someone who isn't willing to negotiate with that position anyway.
posted by Kadin2048 at 5:08 PM on August 18, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Kadin2048 at 5:08 PM on August 18, 2016 [2 favorites]
Best answer: I'd just day you're uncomfortable providing the information. Let them run around if they want to. It's not your problem.
posted by Kalmya at 5:09 PM on August 18, 2016
posted by Kalmya at 5:09 PM on August 18, 2016
Another option, don't lie, take the big bump in current pay (even if low by industry standards). Then keep looking for a new job now using the new compensation. If they ask why your considering leaving so soon, tell them you're not happy with the compensation. Repeat as needed until you're paid fairly.
posted by forforf at 5:30 PM on August 18, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by forforf at 5:30 PM on August 18, 2016 [10 favorites]
To present the contrarian position, as someone currently conducting interviews for two technical positions, play whatever games (within reason) are necessary to get through HR including revealing your current salary.
Many companies, especially larger ones, have pay bands which set a minimum floor for what we will offer. If a position's minimum is $50K, even if I somehow knew for a fact that I could get an applicant for $30K because they're currently making $25K, I'm forbidden to offer less than $50K. In part because we genuinely try to treat people well, but we also know that if we're paying under the market rate for a role, people are going to stay long enough to get a better job elsewhere and leave, and recruiting and training new people as well as losing institutional knowledge is expensive.
Get to the interview, convince them they want to hire you, and see what the offer is. If it's crap, then walk away, you don't want to work there. But if they make you an offer, chances are they *want* to hire you - now some of the balance of power has shifted.
But be realistic. Almost everyone pays some dues in some way professionally. Some people get degrees, some people get lousy pay for a year or two. If you don't have the technical experience or degree, you're not going to have a great selection of positions to choose from - you may need to hold your nose and prove yourself in a non-ideal technical job for a few years.
posted by Candleman at 6:09 PM on August 18, 2016 [6 favorites]
Many companies, especially larger ones, have pay bands which set a minimum floor for what we will offer. If a position's minimum is $50K, even if I somehow knew for a fact that I could get an applicant for $30K because they're currently making $25K, I'm forbidden to offer less than $50K. In part because we genuinely try to treat people well, but we also know that if we're paying under the market rate for a role, people are going to stay long enough to get a better job elsewhere and leave, and recruiting and training new people as well as losing institutional knowledge is expensive.
Get to the interview, convince them they want to hire you, and see what the offer is. If it's crap, then walk away, you don't want to work there. But if they make you an offer, chances are they *want* to hire you - now some of the balance of power has shifted.
But be realistic. Almost everyone pays some dues in some way professionally. Some people get degrees, some people get lousy pay for a year or two. If you don't have the technical experience or degree, you're not going to have a great selection of positions to choose from - you may need to hold your nose and prove yourself in a non-ideal technical job for a few years.
posted by Candleman at 6:09 PM on August 18, 2016 [6 favorites]
Best answer: Where do you live? I ask because Massachusetts recently made it illegal to ask about your salary.
http://www.askamanager.org/2016/08/the-first-state-has-made-it-illegal-to-ask-about-salary-history.html
posted by phil at 7:11 PM on August 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
http://www.askamanager.org/2016/08/the-first-state-has-made-it-illegal-to-ask-about-salary-history.html
posted by phil at 7:11 PM on August 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
Even if you don't get the job offer you want, every interview in practice for the next interview.
posted by amtho at 7:41 PM on August 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by amtho at 7:41 PM on August 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
Where do you live? I ask because Massachusetts recently made it illegal to ask about your salary.
That doesn't take affect until next year so just as a precaution I'm asking everyone I meet in boston how much they make now.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 8:22 PM on August 18, 2016 [4 favorites]
That doesn't take affect until next year so just as a precaution I'm asking everyone I meet in boston how much they make now.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 8:22 PM on August 18, 2016 [4 favorites]
I never worry about that question. I just answer it.
"My current compensation is 'X.' My expectation for this role is 'Y.'"
The two numbers aren't linked. People who know this increase their salaries by 30%, 50% and even 300%.
They should be offering rates that are competitive with the market for that job title, your locale, and your experience level. You should ask for something near that number.
If they challenge you on that, just repeat the above statement.
Remember that there are other perks you can ask for.
If they say yes, then great. If they say no, then consider whether you like the new offer.
Here are some reasons I would take lower pay:
Even at lower pay than expected, it's a nice pay jump
I can learn a lot from the people here
This will be a stepping stone into a new industry that I am excited to have a career in
They pay for my education/degree
I can walk to work (a luxury to me!) or the commute time is less than 20 minutes
They pay for me to attend professional development events
Sometimes I get to travel far away
Sometimes I can work from home (or my friend's house, or a coffee shop, or another city)
...
Of course, these reasons are personal to me. Yours may be different.
Off-topic and maybe off-base because, well, I don't know you, but I want you to have this:
Never withdraw from something out of fear of rejection again.
It's a shitty habit because it gets in the way of your fulfillment and happiness.
We all do it, and we all look back on those moments with disgust. Maybe they would have reject you, maybe they wouldn't have, but you guaranteed a 'no' by backing out first.
If you've been searching for 4 years, this can't be the first time you've backed away from a potentially awesome opportunity because you were worried about how you would be perceived.
Where else do you do that in your life?
posted by jander03 at 10:18 PM on August 18, 2016 [4 favorites]
"My current compensation is 'X.' My expectation for this role is 'Y.'"
The two numbers aren't linked. People who know this increase their salaries by 30%, 50% and even 300%.
They should be offering rates that are competitive with the market for that job title, your locale, and your experience level. You should ask for something near that number.
If they challenge you on that, just repeat the above statement.
Remember that there are other perks you can ask for.
If they say yes, then great. If they say no, then consider whether you like the new offer.
Here are some reasons I would take lower pay:
Of course, these reasons are personal to me. Yours may be different.
Off-topic and maybe off-base because, well, I don't know you, but I want you to have this:
Never withdraw from something out of fear of rejection again.
It's a shitty habit because it gets in the way of your fulfillment and happiness.
We all do it, and we all look back on those moments with disgust. Maybe they would have reject you, maybe they wouldn't have, but you guaranteed a 'no' by backing out first.
If you've been searching for 4 years, this can't be the first time you've backed away from a potentially awesome opportunity because you were worried about how you would be perceived.
Where else do you do that in your life?
posted by jander03 at 10:18 PM on August 18, 2016 [4 favorites]
Best answer: I used to have a hard and fast rule that I never talk about salary until I get into the offer stage. This has worked well for me. However, I've modified my tactics recently because I've decided my time is valuable and rather than playing cat/mouse games for weeks I tell them up front the minimum salary band I would be willing to consider. I do not tell them what I am currently on because as others have pointed out, it's kind of irrelevant. The salary should be based on the job they're hiring for, not what you currently make. They shouldn't get to decide how much of a pay increase is good enough for you, you do.
posted by like_neon at 1:49 AM on August 19, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by like_neon at 1:49 AM on August 19, 2016 [2 favorites]
Best answer: "the position requires an advanced degree. Please send your current compensation."
I'd just like to point out that this is a total non sequitur. A logical followup to "requires an advanced degree" is "please provide evidence of an Associate's or higher, or equivalent work experience (e.g. evidence)". A logical precursor to "send your current compensation" might be "our pay range is based upon your salary history". Were I in your shoes, I might respond by asking about the "advanced degree" bit and conveniently neglecting the compensation question; or thanking them for their response, restating my interest in the position, and asking again what the pay range is. Something else I've had decent success with is providing a range ("my salary is in the range of $90k to $100k with average bonus x%"); this gives them an idea without actually knowing where I'm at. Kind of childish and game-playing, but they started it.
But the big thing for me is that logical non sequitur. Are they the type of company who values their employees, or are they going to nickel and dime and try to bamboozle me and make everything harder than it needs to be just because they're The Company? Their response points to the latter category, and while I wouldn't necessarily walk away from this company, I'd look at them a little more critically, and I'd definitely keep my job search active.
posted by disconnect at 7:14 AM on August 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
I'd just like to point out that this is a total non sequitur. A logical followup to "requires an advanced degree" is "please provide evidence of an Associate's or higher, or equivalent work experience (e.g. evidence)". A logical precursor to "send your current compensation" might be "our pay range is based upon your salary history". Were I in your shoes, I might respond by asking about the "advanced degree" bit and conveniently neglecting the compensation question; or thanking them for their response, restating my interest in the position, and asking again what the pay range is. Something else I've had decent success with is providing a range ("my salary is in the range of $90k to $100k with average bonus x%"); this gives them an idea without actually knowing where I'm at. Kind of childish and game-playing, but they started it.
But the big thing for me is that logical non sequitur. Are they the type of company who values their employees, or are they going to nickel and dime and try to bamboozle me and make everything harder than it needs to be just because they're The Company? Their response points to the latter category, and while I wouldn't necessarily walk away from this company, I'd look at them a little more critically, and I'd definitely keep my job search active.
posted by disconnect at 7:14 AM on August 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
I've used the line "I know you need a number, but I promise you, the number you're asking for is not going to help you in the least." I then proceeded to the "fair compensation" chat.
I liked it because it gave them the vague whiff that I just might be making more than they were prepared to offer, and I was putting my foot down in their best interest. Someone better at negotiations than me might have an even more sneaky way to plant that seed.
I got just under 20k more than my previous salary with that tactic.
posted by The Noble Goofy Elk at 5:42 PM on August 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
I liked it because it gave them the vague whiff that I just might be making more than they were prepared to offer, and I was putting my foot down in their best interest. Someone better at negotiations than me might have an even more sneaky way to plant that seed.
I got just under 20k more than my previous salary with that tactic.
posted by The Noble Goofy Elk at 5:42 PM on August 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by tilde at 4:51 PM on August 18, 2016