How does a woman date online safely?
May 22, 2016 3:12 PM   Subscribe

Is it too much to ask for a full real name and date of birth before meeting so that I can do a background check on them?

Yes I know to only meet in a public place at first, but I've had friends who've done as much and still didn't find out until it was too late that the man they met online was married, had a criminal or violent history and wasn't anything they claimed. I'd like to do more than just meet at a public place. Is it ok to ask for a full name? Date of birth maybe? What's appropriate?
posted by rancher to Human Relations (75 answers total) 9 users marked this as a favorite
Running a background check?! That comes off as more than a little creepy on your part. I think you just need accept that all human interaction comes with some risk. Avoid putting yourself in unsafe (non-public) situations with someone until you get to know them a bit and can vet them, both by feel and by (discreet) google-stalking
posted by chrisamiller at 3:16 PM on May 22, 2016 [75 favorites]

I only meet in public places. I ask for a full name in advance. And because maybe I'm odd, I sometimes (often, actually), ask to see the person's driver's license to ensure that the person is who they claim to be. And then I google later if I liked the person and if I get bad news then, I get bad news and deal with it. Demanding a credit check or birthday in advance seems somewhat extreme to me. Women can be stalkers, too, so I'd never give someone my birthdate because if you have a birthdate, a name and a city you can find almost anything about anyone. So I'm not going to trust a stranger with that kind of information.
posted by Bella Donna at 3:17 PM on May 22, 2016 [7 favorites]

Would you give your full name and DOB to some guy online so he could do a background check on you before a date?
posted by mollymayhem at 3:18 PM on May 22, 2016 [71 favorites]

Full name before meeting + driver's license when meeting are only reasonable precautions. You won't be able to run a meaningful background check on someone without their consent, so asking for DOB or SSN or whatever won't actually be that helpful.
posted by praemunire at 3:23 PM on May 22, 2016 [4 favorites]

I have always asked for full name, phone number. Then google the daylights out of them. Meet twice in public, do not take him to your place on first meeting/or go to his on first date. Then ask for work email. If he is not going to give you that after two dates, he is not that interested in you. Do NOT ever buy any stories/excuses to get around this, for your own safety. I have run background checks and you would be surprised by what you find.
posted by metajim at 3:24 PM on May 22, 2016 [8 favorites]

I'm a woman who met my husband via online dating. This is too much to ask for. Besides, a background check won't include things a bad guy got away with and never got caught for it.

Ask for his first and last name before meeting in person. Google, a lot. Search your state's (likely) public online database for court cases and criminal convictions. Meet in a very public place the first few times. Do not accept a ride home these first few times. Get his email soon after meeting, and then google that too.
posted by ImproviseOrDie at 3:29 PM on May 22, 2016 [12 favorites]

Sounds like most of the material needed for identity theft. I think it's a bit much to ask.
posted by TheAdamist at 3:37 PM on May 22, 2016 [24 favorites]

This seems wildly out of line. I am a woman that dates online in a major city. I have been on 50+ first dates, and never once had a dangerous experience. All you need is a first name, a phone number and public meeting place for a first date. I would NEVER give out my last name before I met someone, and asking that of someone else seems inappropriate.

You need to take it down a few notches. Your meeting someone for a drink or a coffee. They owe you zero personal info. They won't kidnap/murder you in the middle of a coffee shop! Just tell someone where you're going and check in when the date is over. If you want to be really paranoid turn on something like runkeeper to track your physical location.
posted by KMoney at 3:38 PM on May 22, 2016 [68 favorites]

It's a bit of a jump to go from the first meet to marriage... you'll get to know this person over time, and that includes their full name, DOB, friends, and other legit info. As you go on more dates, just text a friend where you will be and if you change locations. Don't go anywhere private until you feel comfortable, and if that includes google stalking then that's what you tell them - that you don't know them well enough and for your safety you'd rather get to know them better which includes such and such information. Asking for that info right up front though before you've even met is invasive.
posted by cristinacristinacristina at 3:49 PM on May 22, 2016 [2 favorites]

If you meet in public on the first date and keep your own last name and contact information private, you don't need to worry about whether they're married, criminals, etc. until you decide if you want to meet them again... and in my experience, you won't click with most of them anyway so your first date will be your last. So don't worry about it until you start to get serious about someone.
posted by metasarah at 3:49 PM on May 22, 2016 [4 favorites]

This is OTT. You ask me this, and I will run like hell - it smacks of paranoia. Yes, this will feed your confirmation bias.

I might do this if you prefaced your request with the information you are asking of me (not offered to give it after I give mine), as this might indicate you have a genuine interest in me.
posted by GeeEmm at 3:52 PM on May 22, 2016 [5 favorites]

Oh, and if you're looking to hook up on the first date as I do sometimes, you just need to accept the risk. You could, at meeting, ask to take a photo of their driver's license to send to a friend in that case, but many will refuse. You could instead ask for their social media accounts' usernames to learn a little about them that way.
posted by metasarah at 3:52 PM on May 22, 2016 [1 favorite]

This is OTT. You ask me this, and I will run like hell - it smacks of paranoia.

Seconded. I'm also a woman who met my husband online dating - if someone had asked me for this information, I would have deleted the email and blocked the sender without any further thought. Also, if you asked for my driver's license when I sat down for our casual coffee date, I would have stood back up, shook your hand, and been on my merry way with my DL safely in my wallet.

Meet in a public place, don't go anywhere with anyone until you get to know them better, take your time and enjoy yourself. Tell a friend where you are and who you're with.
posted by arnicae at 4:07 PM on May 22, 2016 [24 favorites]


Add me to the chorus here. This is 100% inappropriate, and I'm guessing from your question that you wouldn't be willing to reciprocate and share this information with your prospective date... cringe. This kind of thing just enforces tired old gender norms - women as "vulnerable," men as "dangerous." Ugh.

Please don't do this. If you're this scared of going on dates with men you meet online, then it seems that you aren't really in a healthy place to be dating.
posted by schroedingersgirl at 4:11 PM on May 22, 2016 [10 favorites]

Date of birth will come off as way too stuffy and be off-putting to many, but asking to connect on social media (facebook) is one socially-acceptable way to get a better sense of somebody's background. If anything concerning comes up, it will also give you additional data to base your further googling on. If all their info checks out at that level, I'd generally be fine with meeting in a public place.
posted by gemutlichkeit at 4:12 PM on May 22, 2016 [6 favorites]

I understand your concerns as a woman engaged in online dating, but as I wouldn't be willing to give my full name and DOB before meeting in person, I don't expect it of others.

It's the kind of situation where you just need to suss each other out and be on the lookout for red flags, more so because you probably don't have any friends in common and didn't know them beforehand.

If, after dating a few times, they don't want to give you their full name, won't add you on facebook, act fishy, never answer their phone, never let you meet their friends/family, etc, etc, those are all red flags telling you that things are not how they seem to be. I think that if you pay attention, red flags are usually revealed pretty early on. Also, meeting in person just the first time can often reveal a LOT. And if you're concerned about safety and not into hook-ups right off the bat, you can only meet in public places for the first several dates (probably a good idea in any case). If a guy as a problem with that, it either means he only wants a hook up, OR there's something fishy going on. Bye.
posted by bearette at 4:22 PM on May 22, 2016 [3 favorites]

Another lady who met her husband online, and who has friends who continue to be active dating online. Asking for a full name before a first date would be borderline, particularly if not accompanied by the requester offering her full name in return; asking for DOB would be weird and make people think that they were being scammed/being set up for identity theft. Nobody reasonable does full background checks.
posted by joyceanmachine at 4:29 PM on May 22, 2016 [4 favorites]

metajim: " Then ask for work email. If he is not going to give you that after two dates, he is not that interested in you. Do NOT ever buy any stories/excuses to get around this, for your own safety."

A lot of people not working a desk won't have a work email address. EG: I'm a construction electrician and the only people I work with who have work email addresses are top level foremen and management; 90% of the crew doesn't.
posted by Mitheral at 4:34 PM on May 22, 2016 [24 favorites]

Then ask for work email. If he is not going to give you that after two dates, he is not that interested in you.

I think that would seem like a really odd request to a lot of people? I personally don't use my work email address for anything not work-related, so it's never occurred to me to share it with even close friends or family members.

Not that it's a secret or hard for anyone to guess (since it's just my first name @ the work domain), but there's just no reason anyone I know outside of work should ever use it. The company doesn't snoop into employee emails as far as I know, but it would still feel pretty unprofessional to me to use it for anything personal.
posted by Pryde at 4:34 PM on May 22, 2016 [43 favorites]

Just wanted to add my voice and say that, as a guy who has done lots of online dating (but not for a few years now) I would be super weirded out by someone who wanted more than my name (full name is fine) and phone number for a first date, or maybe to be Facebook friends at most. (Note that you're not going to see anything but the most innocuous stuff about me on my Facebook, the kind of stuff that I'm willing to show my extended family, potential employers, etc.)

I assume any woman I date through an online service is going to be checking in with a friend via text message and that she's not going to want to go anywhere private with me the first few times we go out, and I'm fine with that—there are a lot of bad dudes out there, and safety is important. Early dates are kinda like interviews, and I'm expecting things to be a little weird and forced, and that she'll be trying to get a read on whether or not I'm a safe person to have in her life.

Asking for my date of birth, driver's license, or anything like that would come off as super weird and intrusive, and I'd probably decide right there that we weren't going to be a good fit. You can do this if you feel you need to for the sake of your safety—I wouldn't presume to dictate to you how careful you're allowed to be—but just know that you're definitely going to rule out a lot of perfectly nice guys if you take that approach, and that you're still not going to be able to know for sure whether someone you're dating for the first time is a danger to you.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 4:35 PM on May 22, 2016 [14 favorites]

And yeah, my work email would be off limits too. The last thing I need is for someone to decide they dislike me and to start trying to cause shit for me by sending inappropriate stuff to my work email address. I don't use my work email for personal correspondence, period, so there's no reason a date would need to have it. My actual partner could have it of course, but it would still be a "don't use or give out this address, if you need to get ahold of me at work just call or text me" kind of thing.

Plus, yeah, a lot of people who don't work in white-collar jobs just plain don't have a work email address. Ruling people out on that basis would be pretty classist, to be honest.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 4:40 PM on May 22, 2016 [30 favorites]

To add to the above - I cannot FATHOM asking someone for a driver's license, even. In addition to the multitude of reasons that's unnecessary (looking at pictures online is a thing, and what's the likelihood that a dangerous anonymous stranger would figure out you have a meeting date, find you, and know exactly who to pretend to be?) it seems so invasive and formal and generally so socially inappropriate that I think your chances of a second date would plummet.

Seriously, just meet in public, trust your gut, and make sure you see pictures beforehand. This is simple. I promise.
posted by Amy93 at 4:41 PM on May 22, 2016 [7 favorites]

Just tell someone where you're going and check in when the date is over.

Yes to this. When I was online dating I texted two friends the details of the date plus the name and phone number of the person I was meeting. Then I'd text them when it was finished. Bonus outcome is an immediate opportunity to tell SOMEONE how the date went :)

Prior to the date, I think anything else is over the top.
posted by prettypretty at 4:44 PM on May 22, 2016 [4 favorites]

This is OTT. You ask me this, and I will run like hell - it smacks of paranoia.

Women are being encouraged to do exactly this in my city, where a woman was recently dismembered by a guy she'd met online and had been dating for about six weeks. He left her body parts scattered around my neighborhood, and literally every news outlet is braying all this YOU MUST PROTECT YOURSELF AT ALL COSTS, LADIES bullshit. It may be paranoid, but we're actively being encouraged to be exactly that paranoid by our society right now, so...

Anyway. OP, usually what I do is make sure I have the guy's first and last name, a picture where I can clearly see his face, a phone number or some other contact info (usually I have found the guy's FB profile well before I've decided to meet in person), and give all that information to a couple of trusted friends. Check in with them after your dates and make sure they know to raise holy hell if they don't hear from you after a date. That's pretty much the most you can do without spending a lot of money on background checks.
posted by palomar at 4:59 PM on May 22, 2016 [11 favorites]

I agree that this is a complete non-starter, but my comfort levels are not your comfort levels. There are lots of reasons people might have to be wary of dating or meeting strangers so you might have better luck going with a matchmaking type of service that pre-screens clients. I believe eHarmony does this, but there are lots of RL places that exisit for this very reason.
posted by Room 641-A at 5:14 PM on May 22, 2016 [2 favorites]

Asking for a full name before a first date would be borderline

I can't get on board with the idea that it's weird to want to know the full name of someone you're going on a date with. I just can't. How many people do you socialize with one on one for more than five minutes whose full names you don't know?
posted by praemunire at 5:17 PM on May 22, 2016 [17 favorites]

You can totally check in with your friend multiple times over the course of the date, too—it's easy to find an excuse to discreetly text someone, do it in the bathroom if you like. People stop what they're doing and text so often nowadays that I barely even notice unless they start doing it literally right when I'm in the middle of saying something to them, as in words intended specifically for them are actually coming out of my mouth at that moment. I'd expect a leeeetle bit more of someone's attention if I were on a first date with them, but not so much that taking a moment to check in would be disruptive.

Nor would I ask what my date was doing on her phone—I would tend to assume she was checking in, but it's really none of my business what someone else is doing on their phone at any given moment. So, bonus, if you're on a first date, you take a moment to send a text to your check-in buddy, and your date feels the need to ask you what you're doing? Big ol' red flag for controlling behavior right there.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 5:47 PM on May 22, 2016

The best things you can do are the things that would protect you regardless of the person's background. You meet in public. You don't give out identifying information about yourself that you wouldn't want a stranger to have. You make sure that someone who cares about you knows where you are and when you're supposed to be home, and that you make a plan to touch base with your friend/loved one after the date is over, so that if you don't get home when you're supposed to, someone will know that you're late. You don't get into a car with a stranger, and you don't go anywhere non-public until you've met them a few times and feel comfortable.

Doing a background check isn't really an option. For the same reason you wouldn't give a stranger your social security number or birthdate, no sane stranger is going to give you his. And a background check isn't going to tell you whether someone is nice, or whether they're lying about their interests, or even whether they're violent. The only way to know what's in someone's head or heart is to spend time getting to know them. So that's what you have to do. And until you feel comfortable, take reasonable precautions to keep yourself safe.
posted by decathecting at 5:47 PM on May 22, 2016 [1 favorite]

How many people do you socialize with one on one for more than five minutes whose full names you don't know?

Just about everyone. I know their first names, or at least their preferred form of address (eg 'Bob'). Many, or perhaps most, I know their surnames, but not all. NONE of them do I know their full names, unless perhaps I do some business with them.
posted by GeeEmm at 5:54 PM on May 22, 2016 [22 favorites]

I understand your concern, but I do think a lot of people would be put off by this. I think full name is fine, but asking for the date of birth along with it seems odd.

I think exchanging social media accounts (if either you or he is on any of those) could be a good way to get some background on your date or it might not turn up anything useful, as people tend to really censor themselves on social media and present only their best self.

I think it is worth noting again that bad things this person has done would not necessarily turn up on a background check. I once dated someone who now falls into this category, that is, if they had not been there already.

Some things that you can do yourself in lieu of a background check:

- Look carefully at their profile pictures. This sounds basic, but some men are not very conscientious and you can clearly see a woman's purse on a shelf in the background or two toothbrushes by the sink, etc.

- Are they really good looking? You can reverse-image-search their pictures using Google if the pictures seem too generic and too good-looking to be true. They are often snagging the pictures from somewhere else.

- Google the username they used on the dating site. A lot of people use the same handle as they do for their email address or other web presence.

Be careful about the third bullet point because then you might have to act surprised when they tell you something you already found out with your Googling (assuming you did not find any red flags first). It could potentially be more invasive than helpful.

And if you have their full name, definitely check the county court records, civil and criminal, for whatever area(s) are local to you.

I am erring on the side of more paranoid than a lot of users here because web searches, searching county court records, as well as scrutinizing and reverse-searching profile pictures have indeed informed me of guys lying about their marital situation, a convicted stalker, and countless people using fake photos.

As an end note, doing the above may make you feel safer, and might weed out the cheaters and career criminals, but people who are truly hazardous to be around will often not show it until many dates in or many months into the relationship -- they have to sucker you in somehow. The best advice I can give is: take all the usual safety precautions and if something doesn't feel right, trust your gut.
posted by sevenofspades at 5:56 PM on May 22, 2016 [6 favorites]

This isn't appropriate, but I'm going to come at this from a different angle.

What would it definitively prove? The violent history might not be turned up. A marriage would be, but a long-term relationship without any attached paperwork might not be. Life stories can be exaggerated in ways beyond proving. This would both be going too far and not far enough.

The only way to get to know someone is to actually do the footwork and get to know them. A background check wouldn't be enough, but it would be more than enough to scare someone off.
posted by RainyJay at 5:58 PM on May 22, 2016 [12 favorites]

Whether it's appropriate or over-the-line has been addressed sufficiently, and the gist is: if you do this, you're going to turn off a lot of people, but not everybody, and maybe that's okay with you. Maybe you want to make a conscious decision to screen-out people who aren't okay with it. Maybe for you, Prince Charming will be in that smaller subset.

The more salient point, I think, is that what you're proposing is analogous to a criminal asking his new confidant, "Are you a cop? You can't lie if you are!" It's a placebo, and potentially a harmful one because the sense of security is false. I can tell you, as an attorney (not yours!) who is fairly familiar with background checks of various stripes, that any background check that is legally available to you for this purpose will be something I would not feel confident about. And false senses of security can be dangerous.

Nobody can rely on any external resource to do the work of keeping safe. Keeping safe is a constant process of vigilance. It's not, "okay cool, you passed the background check, now we're good!" There is no background check, ever, that can provide that. Be as safe as everyone else is, and you'll be as safe as everyone else is. That's the best you can expect.

Good luck. Have fun.
posted by cribcage at 6:14 PM on May 22, 2016 [25 favorites]

For what it's worth, if you were looking at my hypothetical online dating profile and noticed a woman's purse in the background of a picture, or a second toothbrush in the bathroom, that would be because I live with my mother and my sister. That would be be a disqualifier to some, but it doesn't make me a cheater or a predator. Sometimes people have housemates.

Don't jump to conclusions based on such shaky evidence. Just do what the consensus here suggests: meet in public, make sure someone you trust knows what you're doing, and check in with that person. Don't give out your private information right at the beginning. Trust yourself if you get a bad vibe. Have a way to leave quickly if the situation gets unpleasant or you don't feel safe.

There's no need to be getting all amateur detective with people's profile pictures, doing reverse image searches and shit. It's way too easy to "discover" things that are totally untrue, down that path.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 6:16 PM on May 22, 2016 [3 favorites]

I appreciate the concern, but I think what might put people off about this is not so much the checking-up, but the blatantness of it.

I've also dated online a lot, and the most cautious I've been, all I did was to get the first and last name, and then to text my BFF when I was on the way to meet the guy (at a public place) and give her his name, and the address of the place, and a promise that I would check in within a set number of hours, and orders that if I did not do that, that she was to alert the authorities. Meanwhile I was using the first and last name to Googlestalk the guy.

I think everyone sort of assumes that any potential date is gonna Google you to check up on you; but I think if you just flat-out said that you were going to run a background check on them, they may wonder why you were assuming a background check may be required. However...some of the info you can get from a background check, you'd also be able to get from Google. Something about the informality of googlestalking just feels a lot more friendly, for some reason.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:16 PM on May 22, 2016 [1 favorite]

My two cents: I would never consider going on a date with someone whose full name I didn't know, nor multiple working ways to contact them (like email and work phone for during the day, or home phone and work phone, but the people I know mostly have home phones, too, which are Google-able). When I meet up with anyone for work-related things whom I only know from online or phone (like someone wanting to learn how to be in my profession), I get their full name, phone number, email, etc. Why would I do any less with someone to date?

A birthdate isn't particularly useful online, but a profession is. When prospective clients call me, I use their full names and professions (or past professions) to Google them or check them out on Facebook and/or LinkedIn. I think the key is to ask more about someone before you meet them in person: hobbies, where they went to school, etc., to get a sense of them, and all of that gives you more to search without making them feel checked-out.

Caveat #1: Literally every adult I know has a full name, a profession and/or online presence, and a work email, so I am not sure what to suggest if someone wants to date someone like a member of Mitheral's crew. Caveat #2: I have never gone on a date with a stranger. Going out with someone you've never spoken with in real life or on the phone makes no sense to me.
posted by The Wrong Kind of Cheese at 6:17 PM on May 22, 2016

Been on a million first internet dates and if someone asked me for that info I would assume they were scamming me/trying to steal my identity. There are a lot of fishy fake accounts aimed at lonely dudes on the dating sites, so this is not an unreasonable concern.

My tip is to search their phone number on Facebook, most people have their cell phones linked to their accounts and Facebook will search based on that. Usually confirms they're a real person better than Google, and it's usually their real last name (if you want to Google further...).
posted by bradbane at 6:50 PM on May 22, 2016 [1 favorite]

This is really weird. Think of it this way: you meet a guy in the "traditional" way, at a bar or a friend of a friend or while doing the same group activity. How much do you know about THAT guy? Definitely his first name, possibly his last, most likely not his exact date of birth, and definitely not his work email, driver's license number, etc. And yet there isn't this level of paranoia around going on a date with a person you have met in the traditional way.

I have to assume that it is the "internet-ness" of the dates that is making you ask this question. I encourage you to think of online dating as being not very different from traditional dating. All you have to do to move it from internet to not is to meet up for coffee in broad daylight and get to know the person face to face. Let's be honest, the guy who lies about being married would have lied if you had met doing community service together too. Them's the breaks.
posted by chainsofreedom at 7:00 PM on May 22, 2016 [19 favorites]

OP, I'm curious if you do this in real life. Let's say you took a cooking class, or went to a reading at a bookstore, and someone you were chatting with asked you to join them for coffee afterwards. Would you ask them for this information and ask them to wait while you googled them? If not, then you should use the same common sense online as you would IRL. If you would, or wouldn't accept, then I reiterate my suggestion of finding a service that screens it's clients.

And ixnay on the work email. Please. It's really not fair to put someone on the spot like that before you've even agreed to meet them. Maybe they just got laid off. Maybe they are underemployed and would prefer to talk about that after they've gotten to know you more.
posted by Room 641-A at 7:11 PM on May 22, 2016 [6 favorites]

"How many people do you socialize with one on one for more than five minutes whose full names you don't know?"

Most of my friends, honestly. In the nerd (and often kink) worlds, I know tons of people solely by their screen/forum/scene name, and most of them know me the same way. I've dated more than one lady I called some variant of her screen name, and not known her real last name... ever.

I've given my driver's license once, when I was going to stay with a lady I trusted for several days.

I'm pretty open, I'm willing to send current pictures clearly of me, usually my phone #, answer most questions, tell what field I work in and sometimes even what company... but when I'm employed, my work email is for work. I don't like facebook. I guess everybody has a line for what is 'too weird' for them, but too much is invasive and offputting.

I accept sane, reasonable risks dating.
posted by Jacen at 7:12 PM on May 22, 2016 [4 favorites]

I've had friends who've done as much and still didn't find out until it was too late that the man they met online was married, had a criminal or violent history and wasn't anything they claimed.

Respectfully, this says more about your friend's choices, and what they're attracted to, than anything else.

It's uncommon to meet someone telling a big lie, or a criminal, or a violent person. It is. How many have you met? So it's uncommon. Rare even.

Unless ... there's something about how your friends are choosing who to meet, something that raises the odds. Are they attracted to bad boys? Are there other markers in online profiles that are tip-offs to unwanted behaviors?

So, rather than think of background check strategies, start asking what is you're really looking for in the first place, and how you're processing things in online profiles and preliminary calls/texts you're sending before meeting up.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 7:13 PM on May 22, 2016 [7 favorites]

I think a full background check is overkill, but I'm surprised to see how many people don't even get a last name. But then, I'm the kind of person who uses his first and last name as a username. This was my username in OKC, too, where I met my wife. She was able to get my general information and find my social media accounts before that. Even if she hadn't, though, we emailed back and forth for a few days before meeting (during which time she was able to find out my address, but only because it turned out we lived next door to each other).

That may be my best advice: wait a few days before meeting, and email during that time. You'll get to learn more about each other, you'll weed out guys who are trying to hook up quickly, and you'll be able to find out more about him by searching the email address, which is probably the most common way of self-identification online.
posted by kevinbelt at 7:29 PM on May 22, 2016 [2 favorites]

If you need someone to vouch for your date before you will even sit down to drink coffee with them, I don't think online dating is your best option. Try a matchmaking service.
posted by deathpanels at 7:30 PM on May 22, 2016 [3 favorites]

Re: the work email address, my work email address is for intra-firm use only. There's some kind of blocking system they use to keep emails from outside the firm coming in or going out. And even there weren't a technical block, there's no way I would use my work email for anything other than work.

I met my husband through a personal ad many years ago, and we talked on the phone for a few days before meeting in person. I think that's about the best advice I can give about dating safety, because the driver's license / DOB / background check seems way over the top.
posted by creepygirl at 7:44 PM on May 22, 2016

A first and last name is totally reasonable. A birthday is weird. I would not agree to meet someone who wanted that information without knowing them pretty well. I met my husband online and before we met in person I knew his full name, hometown, employer, and a whole bunch of other info because I talked to him for a few weeks first.

If you're really worried about safety and insist on meeting people you haven't talked to much, only agree to meet at public places and plant a friend there ahead of time. If you're at at restaurant, get a girlfriend to post up at the bar. If you're at a coffee shop, get her to sit at a table nearby. If you get up to "pee," she knows to get up to "pee."
posted by thewestinggame at 7:58 PM on May 22, 2016

It's uncommon to meet someone telling a big lie, or a criminal, or a violent person. It is. How many have you met? So it's uncommon. Rare even.

The percentage of people misrepresenting themselves on online dating sites is much higher, because online sites attract liars. Ask me how I know!

I don't get full names and DOBs for people I am meeting for coffee for the first time, but one really does have to be a bit wary when meeting people online. It's different if you know them already in the "real world", have friend in common, etc.
posted by bearette at 8:03 PM on May 22, 2016 [1 favorite]

In isolation, this is not a bad precaution. In practice, this is so far outside social norms when it comes to online dating that a person will be put off by the request. Also, I do not use my work email for personal purposes AT ALL, though I would probably give my card to someone after a first date if I wanted to get in touch with her again.

It is perfectly ok to decide that the existed social norms of online dating create greater risks than you're willing to accept and seek out other dating opportunities. Traditional matchmaking services still exist.
posted by deanc at 8:04 PM on May 22, 2016 [4 favorites]

So, after my longterm partnership broke up, I ventured out into the dating world and started messaging a cute chick online and we went on the public coffee date thing. She seemed sane enough and we had a good time, so we went out on date number 2 (which was terrible, the stuff of legends, but that's another thread), but despite being terrible, she still spent the night (what can I say, she was there and hot to trot and it'd been 9 years since I'd been with a woman and it was about time and we both had a good time). Someone knew what was up and where I was (I was actually texting with my now wife the whole night, snerk), and if I hadn't resurfaced the next morning she'd have called for a welfare check blah blah etc.

But, after date number 2, when I'd said "oh, no no no, never mind" the next day to myself (but not had a chance to have that conversation with Date yet), she added me on Facebook. All she had was my first name and phone number and that I taught [social science] at [local college]. Which, in retrospect, didn't make me that hard to find, and I wasn't trying to hide, but I was creeped the frack out - because I hadn't invited her into that space yet (and we had swapped bodily fluids!). Things wouldn't have gone anywhere, anyhow (there were other issues, see also, the stuff of legends), but that would have been a huge red flag for me.

I tell this story not to shame you about your levels of caution, OP, but to add to the notion that everyone has different levels of risk tolerance. My sister? Ran a background check on her now husband before date #1, and he was fine with that. If that's what you need to do, keeping fishing until you find someone who is okay with that. Not everyone is going to be okay with that (swapping bodily fluids, sure! Tracking down my last name and Facebook, are you kidding me?) but you will find someone who is.

I'd note that my only experience with sexual assault happened with a dude well vetted by my friends group. One of the only people I've ever had to cut out of my life (she and I were a thing for about 5 minutes) was someone I'd known going on 20 years. Meeting someone in meetspace instead of online is no guarantee that they're not going to be an asshole or predator. A matchmaking service is not going to be a guarantee that the person on the other end isn't an asshole or predator and there's just never been charges. Friends are sometimes lousy screeners. All we can do is do our best, and exercise whatever level of caution we're okay with (I'm going to assume that if you're asking about online dating, you've tried being introduced to people by friends and tried meet-ups etc., which it sounds like you'd be more comfortable with, so now you're trying this online thing.) So just ask: "Look, I've had bad experiences, my friends have had bad experiences, you're going to laugh, but I run background checks on prospective dates" and see what they say. If they're down, you've found someone who shares your views of risk tolerance (or has nothing on their records even though they're an asshole, but you can't do anything about that, so all you can do is the best you can). If it doesn't work after awhile, then you can reevaluate your tactics and see what else you are comfortable with. But there's not necessarily "appropriate" here, just figuring out what you're comfortable with and finding someone who's values match that.

(Good luck! Have fun!)
posted by joycehealy at 8:28 PM on May 22, 2016 [3 favorites]

Stepping aside from the question of "is it reasonable or is it not reasonable," which appears to be getting a bit fraught, I think you can focus on what practically follows from doing what you propose. That is to say, it seems pretty clear from the host of responses you've gotten: many men are going to yellow or red flag "you" as a function of asking them for their date of birth or additional Very Identifying Information prior to having a coffee or drink with you (though last name sounds perfectly reasonable).

Just as you don't know them, they also don't know you. Many people overinterpret what little information they have about the other early on in dating. "Are they paranoid?" ... "Am I going to have to prove myself to them?" ... "Are they trying to get something out of me?" ... might be among the questions running through someone's head when you're requiring this kind of information, prior to finding out if you can even tolerate each other's physical presence.

If you want to do this, that's entirely your prerogative. I don't know what experiences you have had personally or that those you care about have had that make you warier of these things than I, and I respect that. Yet, you may lose out on some potential connections. That filtering might be OK in your book--maybe it's a non-negotiable that "your guy" would tolerate/understand this kind of probing from someone they do not know! But, then I think you may have to radically accept the potential pragmatic consequences of taking this stance, fair or not.
posted by Keter at 8:29 PM on May 22, 2016 [4 favorites]

Keter said it better than me. I was aiming at "you do you, but accept the fact that it may limit your pool." (And I can't believe I misspelled whose. It is time to put down the internet for the night.)
posted by joycehealy at 8:36 PM on May 22, 2016

I met my wife online. I can understand where you're coming from. Unfortunately there's always a risk when meeting people from online dating. But unfortunately what you're asking would scare most people off. Keep the first date public.
posted by ljs30 at 9:35 PM on May 22, 2016

I met my husband online. DOB is just too personal because it can be used to commit fraud. For all the guy knows, your profile is fake and you could be scamming him.

Absolutely ask for a phone number so you can talk on the phone ahead of time if that makes you feel better. Meet up in public and have something planned for after with a friend so you have someone expecting you at a certain time. You can even give the friend the guy's name and phone number. Never get into a car with someone on a first date, or give him any reason to find out your home address. Once you've gone out with him a few times, you can ask for more info, as long as you are willing to give him the same details about yourself.
posted by Pearl928 at 9:48 PM on May 22, 2016

Yes, meet in public for the first few dates and use a friend or relative as a check-in during the date. You can even use various iOS and Android apps to automate your safety checkins.
posted by xyzzy at 12:00 AM on May 23, 2016

Full name before meeting + driver's license when meeting are only reasonable precautions.


I'm sorry, but NO. I would not give that information to a first date. (Identity theft much?) FFS, you are meeting for coffee or a drink, not committing to stay for a week at a remote mountain cabin. I wouldn't give this to a first date. Or a second. Are you offering up yours? (Don't! Creepy! Also stupid, cfn identity theft, above!)

Chill out.

You are dating, not locking yourself into some kind of weird BDSM contract where no one will find you again. Also, there are plenty of scenarios of people being asses (ie married, abusive, being complete twats, etc) that will simply not show up in a background check. You must, like everyone else, rely on your own good sense and practicality for this.

And please remember, these are primarily normal, regular humans just like you who are looking for a date, not another skull to add to their basement collection.

Good luck.

Have some faith. And some good sense. And maybe a deep breath.
posted by ananci at 12:55 AM on May 23, 2016 [6 favorites]

I'm a single man who is dating at the moment and I would find that sort of request creepy/weird to the point of being a red flag. I would likely bail out, politely, on someone who requested that sort of information before a first date. I would read it as either some kind of scam, or someone who has the kind of trust or anxiety issues that would rule them out as a potential friend or partner.

The way to stay safe is to do all the things everybody recommends and, most importantly, trust your heart, or gut or however you think of it. Bad people give you clues. You just have to keep your eyes open and trust your ability to see.
posted by mewsic at 2:36 AM on May 23, 2016

When I meet up with anyone for work-related things whom I only know from online or phone (like someone wanting to learn how to be in my profession), I get their full name, phone number, email, etc. Why would I do any less with someone to date?

Professional networking and dating are very different social scenarios. I want professional connections to know everything about me but if a date goes south less personal information is better. The only time I gave a date my full name was when we were going to a kink place that required full name and DOB for entrance (it wasn't our first meeting either).

I dated online for years and met most my significant relationships through OKC. I tend to measure reasonableness of a request by how willing I would be to reciprocate. Full name? Maybe. Email, definitely. Phone, definitely. One stalker-y thing I've done at the point of having someone's email address is to run it through a search of where it's registered online. If the person has the same email address for everything they're probably not trying to hide part of their life (or they're really bad at it).

I have friends who do the text and check in thing when meeting someone for the first time in public. I never did and didn't have issues with dudes I dated.
posted by toomanycurls at 2:58 AM on May 23, 2016

Is it ok to ask for a full name?


Date of birth maybe?

Probably not. (Again, would you share yours if they ask you?)

What's appropriate?

Who cares. Its your life and your safety. Its easy to inflate this either way but you've got to be comfortable enough to have fun and make the other person comfortable enough to want to go out with you too. That said, if you have to ask the person for a license or do a background check on/before the first date, you are not doing this right. Even if the chap passes all the tests, I'd wonder if you really have the capacity to trust him down the road or if he ends with a girlfriend who is constantly suspicious of his moves/whereabouts etc.

I have usually corresponded with potential dates enough to get to that point of comfort before meeting in person for the first time (this is super-important for me)- and to think of it- I almost always knew what they did for a living AND where they worked (ditto for them) so it's also about how you get to that point of comfort. For me, its never been a questionnaire. Its just talking. Like when you meet anyone new and interesting. But for me its been enough so my gut feeling isn't weird about them before meeting for the first time. There, that's the thing- gut feeling. And all the men I have EVER been on a date with, have been super-nice and thorough gentlemen. Really decent and very respectful men.

Let people breathe and have fun. Isn't that also the point of dating? To be with someone you can relax with and be yourself?
posted by xm at 5:38 AM on May 23, 2016

palomar, I'm really sorry that happened in your city and I'm not surprised it's having a chilling effect, but of course women have been getting dismembered by men they've known for six weeks (or longer) since way before online dating. And a background check wouldn't necessarily have avoided it.

I think the way to avoid creeping people out is to display the reasonable level of suspicion you would have about any man (don't be alone until you know him, don't go to his house or invite him to yours until you're comfortable, tell a friend where you are, google him when you can, drop at the first sign of red flags) instead of the level of suspicion you seem to have about online dating in particular (that it's fraught with catfishers and criminals). Would you run a background check on a guy you met at the library? Okay then.

That said, I don't think there's anything wrong with asking for last name. Either move off the dating site and go to email, my preference, or be very up front: "Sorry, I know this weirds some people out but I'm only comfortable if I google someone before a date." If you're worried enough that you're thinking of performing background checks, a guy who's not comfortable being lightly googled is not for you. Still, if you can hold off until after the first meeting, that's probably better from both a social perspective and the perspective of not putting all that energy into someone who might have bad breath and stupid pants anyway.
posted by babelfish at 5:51 AM on May 23, 2016 [1 favorite]

This kind of thing just enforces tired old gender norms - women as "vulnerable," men as "dangerous." Ugh.

Well, statistics are relevant here. Men ARE more likely to rape and/or kill women, and in a bedroom, 95% of men can physically overpower me. This, plus the perceived scarcity of women who are game for casual sex, means that I have no issue asking for a full name or phone number before the first date, but I never give out my own until I meet someone. If you're not anticipating going private though, getting their information isn't necessary.
posted by metasarah at 6:14 AM on May 23, 2016

So when DO you ask for a full name? And how long should the first meeting last?
posted by rancher at 6:27 AM on May 23, 2016

In my experience, the first meeting should only be for an hour or two. It depends of course. I met my current partner online and we were in the same city, so an hour and a half at a coffee shop was appropriate. We had a second date a few days later. I had his first name and a profession and he had an online presence that was easy enough to find. Previously, I had gone on a date with someone I ended up dating for about six months and we went on a two hour bike ride on our first date. In that case we lived an hour drive apart, we were both runners/triathletes and with a first name, a local race and an approximate time, last names become a moot point. You can verify names, age, etc online.*

If coffee goes well and you are arranging a second date, asking for a full name seems reasonable. I don't recall having to ask for one. It came up naturally. I've been given a fake last name, though. He was also lying about his age. And he was a bit of a jerk.

*anyone who uses a race photo in their profile should keep this in mind.
posted by TORunner at 6:49 AM on May 23, 2016

So when DO you ask for a full name?

Unless you're looking for an instant hookup (in which case, you'd probably be on Tindr) people usually exchange at least a few messages before establishing that there is even mutual interest in meeting. Somewhere during that process there should be a time when it seems like comfortable to ask; in your shoes I'd just wait until that time. The worst that will happen is people will choose to move on, which is probably best for both of you.

And how long should the first meeting last?

Just go grab a cup of coffee! If you have RL time constraints, mention them. But it may last 20 seconds if one (or both) of you nopes right out, or it may never end! It's so important to listen to your gut in matters of the heart, but you need to train that inner voice. In my opinion, a few bad coffee dates is a small price to pay in service of that training.

One last thing. You can take concrete steps to help protect yourself form physical harm but there is no amount of background checks and personal references that will protect you from getting your heart hurt.

Good luck!
posted by Room 641-A at 7:02 AM on May 23, 2016

I'd be happy to provide full name and a phone number before a date. A request for DOB would start me worried that I was being set up for a scam or identity theft.
posted by tdismukes at 7:27 AM on May 23, 2016 [2 favorites]

I'd want to know someone's personal info at the same time I might want to know a new friend's full name, employment info, where they live, etc.: whenever it comes up in conversation. If I've been on 2-3 dates with someone and didn't know it yet, at that point, I don't think it would be at all odd to say, "hey, I just realized that I don't know your last name. Mine's AAA. What's yours?"

As for first meetings, I usually set up coffee or a drink as a first date, with the idea that I can bail after one if the date isn't going well or I'm not clicking with the person or something doesn't feel right. Frankly, I wish we had a culture where it was more acceptable to "Lemon Law" someone if it's immediately clear that it's not a fit, but since we don't really have that, I usually feel socially obligated to stay about 30 minutes or one drink, whichever is shorter. If it's going well, stay as long as you're still having fun.
posted by decathecting at 7:34 AM on May 23, 2016 [1 favorite]

Honestly, Room 641-A has it correct: spend some time getting to know people online first and check out the vibe you get from them before you even agree to meet. There's nothing wrong with being a little picky before you meet - it's the beauty of online dating. If you're not enjoying the interactions, don't even bother meeting. If you are, proceed, but with caution - and this goes double if the person *seems* to be to good to be true - they probably are! (I know this from experience, unfortunately.) If you wait a little, by the time you meet in the natural course of conversation you should have exchanged full names, phone numbers, and other information that would help you Google the person.

If you are really not feeling comfortable with the idea of meeting people one on one, you may want to try meetups instead. A group setting is definitely safer - besides, even if you don't meet anyone, you still get to do something you enjoy! I know a great couple who ended up getting married through a social meetup group.

Remember, dating is supposed to be fun, not terrifying!
posted by Otter_Handler at 7:37 AM on May 23, 2016 [1 favorite]

As someone who met their wife online this would strike me as odd. However let me throw this out there with the acknowledgment that I haven't thought it thru completely - what about LinkedIn? If I gave you my name you'd never in a million years find me via google (common name in my area). But...if you asked me for my public LinkedIn page (after an appropriate amount of texting/emailing) I think I might do that. This would give you some ability to "validate" who I am.

Again, just an option, I haven't thought it thru completely.
posted by Farce_First at 8:27 AM on May 23, 2016 [1 favorite]

Definitely over the top and people will likely think there is something like identify theft or some other type of scam going on.

I'm also curious what's going on with this:
Yes I know to only meet in a public place at first, but I've had friends who've done as much and still didn't find out until it was too late that the man they met online was married, had a criminal or violent history and wasn't anything they claimed.

I myself did a lot of online dating before meeting my husband (through online dating), and I have many friends who have done/do online dating, and I literally don't think I can recall one person who has a story this bad. I definitely met people whose profiles weren't entirely honest (mostly around posting old photos that obviously showed a younger/thinner person than who they were at present), but no one who turned out to be married or a violent criminal. I in no way disbelieve your friends' experiences, and I don't want to be victim-blamey, but I'm genuinely curious if they were just really bad at reading people or picking up on red flags for this to have happened a significant amount of times. You definitely want to be reading profiles and interactions with an objective eye and watching for anything that seems "too good to be true" or other red flags like someone who refuses to introduce you to their friends or incorporate you into their life in other small ways (i.e. always wanting to meet far from their home, cagey about details, etc.) Or it's possible your friends just had really really bad luck! Which sucks, but I don't think it's representative of online dating on the whole.

Finally, I would just think about whether online dating is really right for you. If you are approaching it with this level of suspicion and nervousness, it might be hard to open up and really feel comfortable dating in this setting. Which is fine! Obviously I'm a big proponent of online dating since I met my husband that way. :) But I don't think it's for everyone! If it's not feeling right for you, there's lots of other ways to meet people and date.
posted by rainbowbrite at 9:08 AM on May 23, 2016

palomar, I'm really sorry that happened in your city and I'm not surprised it's having a chilling effect, but of course women have been getting dismembered by men they've known for six weeks (or longer) since way before online dating. And a background check wouldn't necessarily have avoided it.

Right. My point in bringing it up was to illustrate to all the people in-thread telling the OP that she's a paranoid freak for wanting to check up on potential dates that this is seriously what women are told to do by our society. Seriously, for funsies, go do a Google news search on Ingrid Lyne and take a nice long gander at all the shaming articles that come up, basically telling women that if they don't do a whole lot of checking up on potential dates, then they have no one but themselves to blame if they end up raped or murdered or whatever. And it's not like we're not given that kind of "ladies, it's up to you to defend yourself against violence because men are just violent creatures who can't be expected to control themselves" messaging every damn day of our lives, you know? A lady doesn't need to be dismembered for us to hear that, we hear it everywhere. Even here on Metafilter, just crawl through some rape/sexual assault/street harrassment threads here and see for yourself. We do better than most places, but even here, there's still an element of "it's your fault".

I get that to many people this seems over the top, weird, freaky, paranoid, outlandish, whatever. But please realize that this sort of thinking doesn't come from nowhere, and a person isn't necessarily a paranoid crazy person because they want to take precautions that others might not take themselves. We live in a society that lays a ton of blame on women for anything and everything that happens to them, and it can be incredibly difficult to not internalize some of that nonsense.
posted by palomar at 11:19 AM on May 23, 2016 [9 favorites]

You ask for a last name when it feels appropriate to the moment, if they don't volunteer it or give you access to a social media account that contains it. That may be after one date, or six, but it will likely just come up on its own naturally.

An initial meeting should last a minimum of 28 minutes and no more than 107. (I'm kidding.)

Look, there aren't hard and fast rules for dating, regardless of what you may have heard. The most important thing is to make sure that *both* people are feeling comfortable and at ease with what's happening as you go along. Plan for an hour or two for a first date, extend that if you want, cut it short if you're not feeling it. Try not to overthink this. It's just like getting together with any other casual acquaintance that you would like to know better :)
posted by ananci at 12:34 PM on May 23, 2016

If I'm curious about someone's full name, it tends to either come up if we're getting alcohol and get carded (oh hey, can I see your driver's license picture? You look so young!), or when we go to pay the bill. Or I just outright say, hey, I've really enjoyed talking to you, and I feel weird that I don't know your full name - what is it?

I have a fairly uncommon first name and a very uncommon background and profession, so I feel like my potential dates know way more about me than I do about them. If they have a common first name like John and work in IT or whatever, they can remain essentially anonymous, whereas you can google/facebook me in about 0.2 seconds. I deal with it by not revealing much personal information on my profile, and only meeting up with people I feel fairly comfortable with. I send a friend the info, and I always make sure I can get out of a situation easily - I have cash to throw down, I don't have more than one drink so that I can still drive, and I'm parked somewhere not secluded or sketchy. I've never had any issues with online dating, but to be honest, the only time I was ever assaulted was by a coworker I knew and trusted, so hey, what can you do.
posted by autolykos at 1:26 PM on May 23, 2016

Women are being encouraged to do exactly this in my city, where a woman was recently dismembered by a guy she'd met online and had been dating for about six weeks.

1. 6 weeks is pretty different from a 1st date.
2. How many more women are killed by men they are or had been dating/living with/married to for much much longer periods of time?

Nothing is without risk. But I think a move like this is more likely to
a) scare off normal people
b) give you a false sense of security

Going on a public date with a man is a minuscule risk. Going home with a man is riskier. But what's truly risky (for murder) is breaking up with a man you've had a relationship with (that's statistically the most dangerous time in a woman's life). Becoming dependent on a man or having a kid with him are also very high risk. So who knows maybe there is a place for background checks in courtship, but it's not before a first meeting before you even know whether there's chemistry.

If what you are looking for is a serious relationship, you are going to need to be prepared to take some risk and to trust your own judgment. If you have reason to think that judgment is compromised, your time and efforts will be much better spent exploring that than running background checks on men you haven't met yet.
posted by Salamandrous at 1:34 PM on May 23, 2016 [1 favorite]

So when DO you ask for a full name?

Having read all the above answers, I think some people are getting a little freaked by the combination of "full name" and "DOB" and "background check."

By which I mean, knowing a version of someone's full name early on, even before a first date, doesn't strike me as really weird - I introduce myself as [Bob Smith] to people all the time, and have freely offered same to women I've contacted at online dating sites, once we've gotten to the point of actually arranging to go on a date. But the way you phrased the question kind of implied that you would insist on knowing that my actual real full legal name is [Robert Aloysius Psmith (the P is silent)], plus DOB, which is edging into "enough info for identity theft" territory.

So I'd think you could ask for A first and last name (which is not necessarily quite "FULL LEGAL NAME") when it seems like both of you are actually interested in meeting in person.
posted by soundguy99 at 4:35 PM on May 23, 2016 [2 favorites]

The men who are the most likely to stop communicating with you if you do this are the most desirable men. They know they can afford to be choosy, so they won't think much of moving on if someone asks inappropriate questions. The men who are more likely to keep communicating with you if you do this, and possibly go on a date with you, are the more desperate men. They might recognize it's inappropriate, but they're more likely to overlook it, because they're desperate. So you should do this if you want to weed out the best men and find one of the desperate ones.
posted by John Cohen at 9:06 AM on May 24, 2016

Men who think of themselves as "more desirable" are not necessarily the "best men." I wouldn't worry about this, a full name is not too much to ask.
posted by agregoli at 3:11 PM on May 24, 2016 [3 favorites]

I think you missed the point agregoli. The "most desirable" men are not the ones who will think that about themselves, they're the ones who will move on to another message when an internet stranger asks for sensitive personal information. I think that's probably what any reasonable person would do. I don't think asking for a full name is unreasonable, although in my experience that would be unusual, which is what the OP asked.

Anything beyond asking for a name and phone number is going to raise serious is-this-a-scam alarm bells. Just today I spent a few minutes on Tinder on the train home from work and encountered 2 obvious bots that asked for personal info and one real woman using the platform to promote her business. I don't think anyone should give out any kind of personal info over any of these dating platforms.

Meet in public, check in with a friend, use Google Voice to disguise your real phone number, Facebook search their phone number, and google every image and piece of information you have. You are still meeting a stranger though, and that entails a certain level of risk. You can't background check every potential date, if that would even reveal what you want to know.
posted by bradbane at 10:35 PM on May 24, 2016

As a datapoint, before my second date with a guy I met online, I asked for his last name but I couldn't find him on Google. After we met he wanted me to get in his car so we could drive somewhere. I then brought up that I couldn't find him on Google so he offered to show me his driver's license so I got in his car and I'm still alive.

I have wondered half-jokingly about checking driver's licenses because in my dating pool (late 40s early 50s) I've noticed men will lie 20 years about their age. So someone who's supposed to be 49 is actually 69! I've seen this on a few occasions--enough to make me wonder if this is a thing. I was actually going to do an ask me about it--whether women are more inclined to lie smaller amounts, say 5 years, and men 20 years and why. That's been my anecdotal experience at least.
posted by kewpiesockpuppetdoll at 6:07 PM on July 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

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