Severing ties all the tie-me
January 3, 2016 4:19 PM Subscribe
I grew up in an abusive family. I haven’t spoken to my brother in forever. I plan to communicate minimally with my parents in the future.
But this isn’t about them. It’s about the fact that I deal with friendships a little strangely. I tend to cut close friends out of my life abruptly.
The first time was in sixth grade, when I abruptly stopped talking to my best friend because she gained another close friend. Since then, I’ve done this a number of times, especially when I feel betrayed (for example, a roommate complaining to our landlord about me).
Aside from those two situations, the common ingredient in most of my friendship habits is integrity – if I really respect someone, I want them in my life for a long time. Especially as I get to be more like them.
I like going all out for my friends whenever I can. I’m very sensitive to their needs and fiercely loyal. But I demand the same of them – and if they don’t meet my expectations and I'm left disappointed, I gradually or abruptly ghost on them. Also, I often don’t mind disrupting a group’s harmony by speaking my mind. I don’t mind much if I alienate people, or if I lose a friend because I need things to go a certain way (for example, a group project).
I realize that I’m speaking in absolutes and I have dialed down on what I expect of my close friends. And my universe doesn’t revolve around my close friends.
I have a lot of acquaintances that I get along well with, as well as strangers. In fact, I prefer deep conversations with strangers as they don’t get to disappoint me.
But I also find it disconcerting that I don’t have close long term friendships. And I feel like my friends are taken aback when different facets of my personality surface, if my crazy past stories come up, or if they meet my other circles, which are extremely different (think stuffy white collar vs punk artists). It feels very bipolar. And I feel bad for people I've cut out, as I don't think it's pleasant.
My questions are 1) how come I’m able to be such good friends with someone and despise them the next day? What’s going on? 2) Are my habits healthy or sustainable?
The first time was in sixth grade, when I abruptly stopped talking to my best friend because she gained another close friend. Since then, I’ve done this a number of times, especially when I feel betrayed (for example, a roommate complaining to our landlord about me).
Aside from those two situations, the common ingredient in most of my friendship habits is integrity – if I really respect someone, I want them in my life for a long time. Especially as I get to be more like them.
I like going all out for my friends whenever I can. I’m very sensitive to their needs and fiercely loyal. But I demand the same of them – and if they don’t meet my expectations and I'm left disappointed, I gradually or abruptly ghost on them. Also, I often don’t mind disrupting a group’s harmony by speaking my mind. I don’t mind much if I alienate people, or if I lose a friend because I need things to go a certain way (for example, a group project).
I realize that I’m speaking in absolutes and I have dialed down on what I expect of my close friends. And my universe doesn’t revolve around my close friends.
I have a lot of acquaintances that I get along well with, as well as strangers. In fact, I prefer deep conversations with strangers as they don’t get to disappoint me.
But I also find it disconcerting that I don’t have close long term friendships. And I feel like my friends are taken aback when different facets of my personality surface, if my crazy past stories come up, or if they meet my other circles, which are extremely different (think stuffy white collar vs punk artists). It feels very bipolar. And I feel bad for people I've cut out, as I don't think it's pleasant.
My questions are 1) how come I’m able to be such good friends with someone and despise them the next day? What’s going on? 2) Are my habits healthy or sustainable?
My personal opinion is that your expectations of others are neither healthy or sustainable. You know what you want in a friendship but what do you offer? It sounds like you want a bit of an over the top friendship but not everyone wants to go "all out" for their friends. Those friendships can be fun but they require a lot of work. Sometimes the best friendships, the most long lived are the easy ones, where it's about accepting the person for who they already are. You want a long term friend but you are not acting like a friend when you ghost on them.
posted by saradarlin at 4:36 PM on January 3, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by saradarlin at 4:36 PM on January 3, 2016 [2 favorites]
Best answer: This is/was me, basically, and I've been working on it. IMO it has a lot to do with being "right." You cut people out when they fail to measure up to whatever standard you have in your head as to what is right, and obviously, this is no way to sustain relationships. A shrink once told me, "You can be right, or you can have relationships."
Another thing about being correct and the integrity thing is this idea of truth, that *you* somehow are privy to it. The reality is that there are many truths, infinite ones, if you will, and most people have a version that will not meet your own. As soon as you start to accept that the universe and its beings hold a multiplicity of truths, all of which are valid, you'll begin to be able to overlook these perceived "wrongs" because you'll see that no, one correct way exists.
posted by meeeese at 5:59 PM on January 3, 2016 [16 favorites]
Another thing about being correct and the integrity thing is this idea of truth, that *you* somehow are privy to it. The reality is that there are many truths, infinite ones, if you will, and most people have a version that will not meet your own. As soon as you start to accept that the universe and its beings hold a multiplicity of truths, all of which are valid, you'll begin to be able to overlook these perceived "wrongs" because you'll see that no, one correct way exists.
posted by meeeese at 5:59 PM on January 3, 2016 [16 favorites]
You say you are fiercely loyal, but then you say you don't mind losing friends to get things your own way. It sounds like you are not as sensitive or loyal as you think you are. This may be sustainable but self-delusional. Perhaps, instead of "cutting" those people you feel betrayed by, you might try talking to them. Find out what they think happened. Often the things you see as betrayal are the same kinds of things you do to others.
posted by irisclara at 6:11 PM on January 3, 2016 [12 favorites]
posted by irisclara at 6:11 PM on January 3, 2016 [12 favorites]
My closest friendships all reached some sort of crisis point before they deepened into a truly satisfying relationship. It sounds like you're bailing when your friendships reach that crisis point. I wonder what would happen if instead of seeing the crisis as the straw that broke the camel's back, you viewed it as an opportunity to take the friendship deeper? You do that by being (kindly but) honest with the other person and considering carefully the other person's take on the subject. Even if you don't agree, if you successfully communicate and still accept and care for each other, it's a win.
posted by summerstorm at 10:29 PM on January 3, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by summerstorm at 10:29 PM on January 3, 2016 [2 favorites]
I wouldn't worry about your behavior patterns in childhood friendships, unless maybe you're still a teenager now. Very few people are still besties with their best friend from middle school, and that doesn't make us all maladjusted lone wolves.
Now, if there is a pattern here beyond anything that happened before you were 18 and maybe one or two intense experiences (I have an abusive ex and a college friend who royally dicked me over; they are never coming back into my life and I feel no compunctions about this), this might be something to work on. It's probably worth thinking about why you suddenly flip on people and dramatically cut them out of your life. Do they do something that inspires feelings of betrayal? Do you feel like you "grow apart" over time but there's a straw that breaks the camels back?
One thing I've learned as I've lived through my 20s and into my 30s is that, often, social uphevals are not forever. There are people I was So Totally Done With in my early 20s who I adore a decade later. I have a pretty volatile relationship with my best friend, who has lived on three continents over the last 2 years, and our friendship tends to ebb and flow despite the fact that, when it comes down to it, we are family to each other. The same could also be true of your family of birth. My father disowned me when I was 19, and now we're actually very close. Not to diminish the abuse that you faced -- you get to decide who is your family and what kind of relationship you want, period -- but that you just never fucking know what the future holds.
TL;DR: I wouldn't be so quick to generalize patterns that might not be relevant. You have a long time to live on this earth, and a lot of water is going to pass under a lot of bridges. Be kind to yourself.
posted by Sara C. at 12:30 AM on January 4, 2016 [4 favorites]
Now, if there is a pattern here beyond anything that happened before you were 18 and maybe one or two intense experiences (I have an abusive ex and a college friend who royally dicked me over; they are never coming back into my life and I feel no compunctions about this), this might be something to work on. It's probably worth thinking about why you suddenly flip on people and dramatically cut them out of your life. Do they do something that inspires feelings of betrayal? Do you feel like you "grow apart" over time but there's a straw that breaks the camels back?
One thing I've learned as I've lived through my 20s and into my 30s is that, often, social uphevals are not forever. There are people I was So Totally Done With in my early 20s who I adore a decade later. I have a pretty volatile relationship with my best friend, who has lived on three continents over the last 2 years, and our friendship tends to ebb and flow despite the fact that, when it comes down to it, we are family to each other. The same could also be true of your family of birth. My father disowned me when I was 19, and now we're actually very close. Not to diminish the abuse that you faced -- you get to decide who is your family and what kind of relationship you want, period -- but that you just never fucking know what the future holds.
TL;DR: I wouldn't be so quick to generalize patterns that might not be relevant. You have a long time to live on this earth, and a lot of water is going to pass under a lot of bridges. Be kind to yourself.
posted by Sara C. at 12:30 AM on January 4, 2016 [4 favorites]
"I’m very sensitive to their needs and fiercely loyal. But I demand the same of them – and if they don’t meet my expectations and I'm left disappointed, I gradually or abruptly ghost on them. "
Okay, people don't want such intense friendships as they age, feeling obliged to be there for someone the same way they have been for you isn't always sustainable. At least that is true for me, with a husband and a baby and a house to run- I don't have time or resources to spend on a friendship where the other person has any drama or is needy or demanding of my time. I now look for activity partners more than close close friends. And secondly, I've noticed that people don't go out of their way to accommodate me the way I used to as a huge people pleaser and I've stopped doing that too.
posted by flink at 2:12 AM on January 4, 2016 [2 favorites]
Okay, people don't want such intense friendships as they age, feeling obliged to be there for someone the same way they have been for you isn't always sustainable. At least that is true for me, with a husband and a baby and a house to run- I don't have time or resources to spend on a friendship where the other person has any drama or is needy or demanding of my time. I now look for activity partners more than close close friends. And secondly, I've noticed that people don't go out of their way to accommodate me the way I used to as a huge people pleaser and I've stopped doing that too.
posted by flink at 2:12 AM on January 4, 2016 [2 favorites]
Oh God. Well, I am exactly like this (similar background) so I will be awaiting the responses myself. It's easy to recognise that it's not healthy but if your 'internal system' is used to seeing/feeling the world in a certain way then understanding it intellectually is not going to make much difference. I take 'small' occurrences as major slights too and cut people off with ease if I feel they have been disloyal/unappreciative. Loyalty is the biggest issue for me with that being anything from 'the tone people use' to not giving people chances to have off-days because I monitor my behaviour so closely to ensure that I never have 'off days' with others (i.e. 'if I am hyper-aware of your feelings, I expect the same back'). It's the source of much of my anger. It's more than just childish point-scoring - it's more like a survival technique. I know it's not considered normal but how do you know what is? And how 'normal' can someone from such a background become?
Most of my 'cutting people off' centres around the pain of rejection, invalidation and the fear of being in another unequal situation, which if you've grown up in an abusive background, you're going to be hypersensitive to. It's easy to be very good friends with someone then cut them off if one of your major values is violated. It can feel very freeing too (almost a fight-or-flight scenario). The questions for me are always 'does this feel right?' and 'what is the right thing to do?' over a multitude of situations that occur regularly that others may brush off. Your feelings/intuition have been built up from a dysfunctional experience so the right thing to do may not 'feel' right which makes things even more tricky.
One thing is that if you're coming from an abusive background, you have likely never been able to voice your pain and it's easier to 'leave' than to talk about it or move through it because the 'other person' in an abusive relationship is not going to change. I think healthy adults do discuss such things and do change to accommodate the other person (within reason). The idea of such intimacy makes me cringe.
Intimacy seems to require huge leaps of faith and trust that are terrifying and asking 'is this right? should this be happening?' all the time is bloody annoying nut necessary. It's also all the more difficult if you have been a loner for most of your life and if introversion is in your nature because then it's not hard to remove people from your life. Everyone has flaws so the 'reasons to leave' can build up quickly. But which 'flaws' are acceptable? Which 'flaws' are safe?
I have pretty much nothing to offer other than 'I know what you're experiencing' and I hope you (we?) overcome it.
posted by ihaveyourfoot at 4:54 AM on January 4, 2016 [6 favorites]
Most of my 'cutting people off' centres around the pain of rejection, invalidation and the fear of being in another unequal situation, which if you've grown up in an abusive background, you're going to be hypersensitive to. It's easy to be very good friends with someone then cut them off if one of your major values is violated. It can feel very freeing too (almost a fight-or-flight scenario). The questions for me are always 'does this feel right?' and 'what is the right thing to do?' over a multitude of situations that occur regularly that others may brush off. Your feelings/intuition have been built up from a dysfunctional experience so the right thing to do may not 'feel' right which makes things even more tricky.
One thing is that if you're coming from an abusive background, you have likely never been able to voice your pain and it's easier to 'leave' than to talk about it or move through it because the 'other person' in an abusive relationship is not going to change. I think healthy adults do discuss such things and do change to accommodate the other person (within reason). The idea of such intimacy makes me cringe.
Intimacy seems to require huge leaps of faith and trust that are terrifying and asking 'is this right? should this be happening?' all the time is bloody annoying nut necessary. It's also all the more difficult if you have been a loner for most of your life and if introversion is in your nature because then it's not hard to remove people from your life. Everyone has flaws so the 'reasons to leave' can build up quickly. But which 'flaws' are acceptable? Which 'flaws' are safe?
I have pretty much nothing to offer other than 'I know what you're experiencing' and I hope you (we?) overcome it.
posted by ihaveyourfoot at 4:54 AM on January 4, 2016 [6 favorites]
I’m very sensitive to their needs and fiercely loyal. But I demand the same of them – and if they don’t meet my expectations and I'm left disappointed, I gradually or abruptly ghost on them.
What many adults need most are reliable and flexible friends, friends who will understand that sometimes one's life is entirely saturated and that a month without contact isn't about them, and that once the roar recedes you can go for a bite and a beer and debrief and decompress and smile and feel accepted, with no expectations of elaborate excuses or apologetic dances.
To me, one feature of good friendships is this benefit of the doubt, in both directions. Ask yourself if it's possible that you're failing your friends as much as or more than they're failing you.
posted by tempythethird at 9:11 AM on January 4, 2016 [2 favorites]
What many adults need most are reliable and flexible friends, friends who will understand that sometimes one's life is entirely saturated and that a month without contact isn't about them, and that once the roar recedes you can go for a bite and a beer and debrief and decompress and smile and feel accepted, with no expectations of elaborate excuses or apologetic dances.
To me, one feature of good friendships is this benefit of the doubt, in both directions. Ask yourself if it's possible that you're failing your friends as much as or more than they're failing you.
posted by tempythethird at 9:11 AM on January 4, 2016 [2 favorites]
I feel like I can be a bit ruthless in cutting people out of my life as well. But one aspect of this for me (and I mention it so you can consider whether it applies to you at all) is that there seems to be something about me that invites people to treat me with increasing disrespect over time. Not all people, but it has happened often enough that I detect a pattern. And I think what's going on is that when the first bad behavior occurs, I'm too quick to smooth it over and make everything okay, instead of drawing boundaries, and things then escalate. Once they reach a certain point, then I decide I'm no longer willing to put up with this abuse, and cut them out completely.
I'm actually a lot better with this since I recognized this pattern, but it's HARD. It's really uncomfortable to stick up for yourself and then stay in the relationship. Much easier to act like everything's fine, fine, fine and then bail. I have one relatively new friend right now who I can tell is starting to do this, saying snarky things to me that I don't think she would say to anyone else. I've been gently defending myself and guess what? She just spontaneously apologized to me for her recent behavior. A first in my life. There may be hope for me yet.
posted by HotToddy at 10:54 AM on January 4, 2016 [4 favorites]
I'm actually a lot better with this since I recognized this pattern, but it's HARD. It's really uncomfortable to stick up for yourself and then stay in the relationship. Much easier to act like everything's fine, fine, fine and then bail. I have one relatively new friend right now who I can tell is starting to do this, saying snarky things to me that I don't think she would say to anyone else. I've been gently defending myself and guess what? She just spontaneously apologized to me for her recent behavior. A first in my life. There may be hope for me yet.
posted by HotToddy at 10:54 AM on January 4, 2016 [4 favorites]
Part of me thinks that strict adherence to ideals like "fierce loyalty" and spontaneously ending all contact with a friend are childish approaches to life. I apologize, I know that probably sounds insulting, but I say it because I myself am struggling with the decision whether or not to continue my own weird obsession with loyalty.
The thing is, I don't think it's a very kind thing to do to cut someone off with no explanation. (I'm speaking about friends here, of course, not randos). I cut off an old high school friend permanently when I was in college because I couldn't handle her endless insecurity and depression, but I at least sent her an email to explain why after her repeated attempts to get a response from me. That wasn't a great way to handle it and I think in retrospect I should've told her upfront why I couldn't be friends with her anymore before cutting her off.
The only other person I have completely cut off contact with is the "friend" who thought it would be a great idea to have an affair with my husband.
If you're not setting boundaries with people and making it clear what is and is not acceptable in a friendship, I imagine you will continue to lose friends this way. Aside from egregiously unacceptable behavior like the aforementioned example of someone having an affair with your partner, I think it is more fair to talk to people and tell them what your expectations are.
posted by a strong female character at 4:34 PM on January 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
The thing is, I don't think it's a very kind thing to do to cut someone off with no explanation. (I'm speaking about friends here, of course, not randos). I cut off an old high school friend permanently when I was in college because I couldn't handle her endless insecurity and depression, but I at least sent her an email to explain why after her repeated attempts to get a response from me. That wasn't a great way to handle it and I think in retrospect I should've told her upfront why I couldn't be friends with her anymore before cutting her off.
The only other person I have completely cut off contact with is the "friend" who thought it would be a great idea to have an affair with my husband.
If you're not setting boundaries with people and making it clear what is and is not acceptable in a friendship, I imagine you will continue to lose friends this way. Aside from egregiously unacceptable behavior like the aforementioned example of someone having an affair with your partner, I think it is more fair to talk to people and tell them what your expectations are.
posted by a strong female character at 4:34 PM on January 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Thank you all for your answers!
Just to clarify, I don't mean cutting people off because they fail to spend time with me or things like that. I mean: 1) when I lost a drastic amount of weight during a breakup and a close friend I met up with didn't ask how I was coping but tried to avoid even mentioning the obvious 2) a friend who didn't help me out when a loon kept harassing me physically at a club even though I was shouting for help 3) a friend who made really hurtful remarks at me and resented it when I accomplished anything (although she could be very nice otherwise) 4) a friend who pretended to not see me in public and is generally not very nice 5) a friend who asked me whether I was at fault when I was abused (I asked whether they meant what they said then asked them to leave my place immediately)
In terms of being fiercely loyal, I mean I would ever never gossip about a friend or flirt with her significant other. And I would always make sure to inquire and/or help if I felt they were in trouble, as well as I would never cut them down just to build myself up.
So I guess I cut out anyone I feel unsafe with, which is fair. But to summarize this thread, how I do it is wrong: I should discuss it with them if the situation seems ambiguous. And also, these things would happen less if I were willing to be confrontational and demand more in the moment instead of sweeping it under the rug.
And also regarding the discrepancy between intense friends v casual friends, this might be helpful for readers: it is often a cultural thing, with Scandinavians and the Germans tending to be more reserved about participating in a friendship but are very good friends if a friendship evolves. Whereas Americans often appear to be more casual and more flexible. I find Canadians fall in the middle.
Thank you meeeese and the tortoise, I will mull over what you said.
posted by kinoeye at 6:08 PM on January 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
Just to clarify, I don't mean cutting people off because they fail to spend time with me or things like that. I mean: 1) when I lost a drastic amount of weight during a breakup and a close friend I met up with didn't ask how I was coping but tried to avoid even mentioning the obvious 2) a friend who didn't help me out when a loon kept harassing me physically at a club even though I was shouting for help 3) a friend who made really hurtful remarks at me and resented it when I accomplished anything (although she could be very nice otherwise) 4) a friend who pretended to not see me in public and is generally not very nice 5) a friend who asked me whether I was at fault when I was abused (I asked whether they meant what they said then asked them to leave my place immediately)
In terms of being fiercely loyal, I mean I would ever never gossip about a friend or flirt with her significant other. And I would always make sure to inquire and/or help if I felt they were in trouble, as well as I would never cut them down just to build myself up.
So I guess I cut out anyone I feel unsafe with, which is fair. But to summarize this thread, how I do it is wrong: I should discuss it with them if the situation seems ambiguous. And also, these things would happen less if I were willing to be confrontational and demand more in the moment instead of sweeping it under the rug.
And also regarding the discrepancy between intense friends v casual friends, this might be helpful for readers: it is often a cultural thing, with Scandinavians and the Germans tending to be more reserved about participating in a friendship but are very good friends if a friendship evolves. Whereas Americans often appear to be more casual and more flexible. I find Canadians fall in the middle.
Thank you meeeese and the tortoise, I will mull over what you said.
posted by kinoeye at 6:08 PM on January 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
1) when I lost a drastic amount of weight during a breakup and a close friend I met up with didn't ask how I was coping but tried to avoid even mentioning the obvious 2) a friend who didn't help me out when a loon kept harassing me physically at a club even though I was shouting for help 3) a friend who made really hurtful remarks at me and resented it when I accomplished anything (although she could be very nice otherwise) 4) a friend who pretended to not see me in public and is generally not very nice 5) a friend who asked me whether I was at fault when I was abused (I asked whether they meant what they said then asked them to leave my place immediately)
1. Did you bring it up yourself? Maybe your friend was worried bringing it up would make you uncomfortable.
2. I would be forgiving if the friend was just really scared and didn't know what to do. How did your friend react?
3. This just seems like a toxic friend. Being nice a lot of the time doesn't make up for the hurtful comments. In fact, it might even make them worse. That's part of why people find themselves stuck with toxic friends - they pepper in niceness to keep you on the hook.
4. If a friend pretended not to see me in public I would be very hurt, and think chances are that friend just wasn't really into the friendship. But maybe the friend was having a bad day and didn't want to get into a conversation? Maybe they were stressed or anxious at the time.
5. That would end the friendship for me.
Based on what you've shared about these friends I would say you were completely justified in ending two of the friendships and possibly justified in ending the others, depending on further context. That's just my opinion, but I think maybe the one or two times it would have been helpful to communicate better with friends has you worried about times you made the right choice and trusted your gut. When you grow up with a dysfunctional family you can become hypervigilant to rejection but simultaneously crave close friendships. This causes a lot of self doubt with whether you were right to cut someone out of your life or if you overreacted. This has been my experience and it's sometimes incredibly difficult to tell the difference. And I often go back and forth between realizing I made the right choice, to doubting myself, and to convincing myself that I'm willing to accept hurtful behavior from someone because I miss the intensity of friendship.
I think you should be happy that you've ditched some hurtful friends and forgive yourself if you've made a mistake here or there.
posted by blackzinfandel at 9:24 PM on January 9, 2016
1. Did you bring it up yourself? Maybe your friend was worried bringing it up would make you uncomfortable.
2. I would be forgiving if the friend was just really scared and didn't know what to do. How did your friend react?
3. This just seems like a toxic friend. Being nice a lot of the time doesn't make up for the hurtful comments. In fact, it might even make them worse. That's part of why people find themselves stuck with toxic friends - they pepper in niceness to keep you on the hook.
4. If a friend pretended not to see me in public I would be very hurt, and think chances are that friend just wasn't really into the friendship. But maybe the friend was having a bad day and didn't want to get into a conversation? Maybe they were stressed or anxious at the time.
5. That would end the friendship for me.
Based on what you've shared about these friends I would say you were completely justified in ending two of the friendships and possibly justified in ending the others, depending on further context. That's just my opinion, but I think maybe the one or two times it would have been helpful to communicate better with friends has you worried about times you made the right choice and trusted your gut. When you grow up with a dysfunctional family you can become hypervigilant to rejection but simultaneously crave close friendships. This causes a lot of self doubt with whether you were right to cut someone out of your life or if you overreacted. This has been my experience and it's sometimes incredibly difficult to tell the difference. And I often go back and forth between realizing I made the right choice, to doubting myself, and to convincing myself that I'm willing to accept hurtful behavior from someone because I miss the intensity of friendship.
I think you should be happy that you've ditched some hurtful friends and forgive yourself if you've made a mistake here or there.
posted by blackzinfandel at 9:24 PM on January 9, 2016
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This is common in people who grew up in abusive families. It's definitely something that can be worked on in therapy (DBT is especially helpful) if you're interested.
posted by thetortoise at 4:26 PM on January 3, 2016 [15 favorites]