Does my previous drug use preclude me from being a firefighter?
October 7, 2015 8:32 AM Subscribe
Do I have any chance of being a firefighter with my previous drug use or am I simply wasting my time?
I've recently decided that I want to pursue firefighting and I've started down the path by registering for EMT class and a couple department tests in my metro area. I've gone for a couple ride alongs and I do really see this as something I would like to do with my life. I'm 25 and have time to work towards this goal, but also don't see this as my only path in life, and don't want to beat a dead horse if it isn't happening. Which is where my previous drug use comes in.
The departments here say they disqualify you as an applicant if you've used hard drugs within 5 years and soft drugs within 3 years. I've used both within a year...hard drugs are very rare for me now, but I did a fair amount in college 4 years ago. Same with soft drugs, and a bit more so out of college. Substance abuse was never an issue for me, and I don't anticipate it ever will be. I used for experimentation and mental exploration and for an occasional release, but I never found the use to be detrimental for me. I have no problem stopping all use for the rest of my life.
What I've read about this is a mixed bag. I've heard to admit your mistakes during polygraph and explain your usage and they can typically see past it. But will they be able to see past habitual marijuana use and extensive experimentation? I fear not, and that even if I make it past the 3 and 5 year mark, I'll never get hired because of it. I want to give this a shot, but I also don't want to entirely waste my time and money if there's no hope.
Any advice?
I've recently decided that I want to pursue firefighting and I've started down the path by registering for EMT class and a couple department tests in my metro area. I've gone for a couple ride alongs and I do really see this as something I would like to do with my life. I'm 25 and have time to work towards this goal, but also don't see this as my only path in life, and don't want to beat a dead horse if it isn't happening. Which is where my previous drug use comes in.
The departments here say they disqualify you as an applicant if you've used hard drugs within 5 years and soft drugs within 3 years. I've used both within a year...hard drugs are very rare for me now, but I did a fair amount in college 4 years ago. Same with soft drugs, and a bit more so out of college. Substance abuse was never an issue for me, and I don't anticipate it ever will be. I used for experimentation and mental exploration and for an occasional release, but I never found the use to be detrimental for me. I have no problem stopping all use for the rest of my life.
What I've read about this is a mixed bag. I've heard to admit your mistakes during polygraph and explain your usage and they can typically see past it. But will they be able to see past habitual marijuana use and extensive experimentation? I fear not, and that even if I make it past the 3 and 5 year mark, I'll never get hired because of it. I want to give this a shot, but I also don't want to entirely waste my time and money if there's no hope.
Any advice?
I've heard to admit your mistakes during polygraph and explain your usage and they can typically see past it.
That's true for positions where they don't set a time limit like that, where drug use is typically more security-oriented -- being a drug user exposes you to blackmail, so admitting that you have this offense in your past removes a potential blackmailer's leverage.
However, what they're looking for in this case is assurance that you won't "relapse" and that your experimentation is well and truly behind you, and using whatever calculation they felt like, they determined that 5 years and 3 years was enough to ensure that. Fess up and request a waiver (if they do that sort of thing), or time your training and such so that you'll be able to honestly answer "I haven't used hard drugs in 5 years nor soft ones in 3 years" when the time comes.
posted by Etrigan at 9:06 AM on October 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
That's true for positions where they don't set a time limit like that, where drug use is typically more security-oriented -- being a drug user exposes you to blackmail, so admitting that you have this offense in your past removes a potential blackmailer's leverage.
However, what they're looking for in this case is assurance that you won't "relapse" and that your experimentation is well and truly behind you, and using whatever calculation they felt like, they determined that 5 years and 3 years was enough to ensure that. Fess up and request a waiver (if they do that sort of thing), or time your training and such so that you'll be able to honestly answer "I haven't used hard drugs in 5 years nor soft ones in 3 years" when the time comes.
posted by Etrigan at 9:06 AM on October 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
I've heard to admit your mistakes during polygraph and explain your usage and they can typically see past it.
Take a lesson from Lance Armstrong. Did you ever fail a drug test? Have you ever been arrested for possession? In this game, absence of evidence is evidence of absence. Don't admit it - ever - and if accused, deny it, deny it, deny it. The burden is totally on the accuser, don't help them along.
And when your career is over you can decide whether or not to come clean and destroy yourself.
posted by three blind mice at 9:26 AM on October 7, 2015 [7 favorites]
Take a lesson from Lance Armstrong. Did you ever fail a drug test? Have you ever been arrested for possession? In this game, absence of evidence is evidence of absence. Don't admit it - ever - and if accused, deny it, deny it, deny it. The burden is totally on the accuser, don't help them along.
And when your career is over you can decide whether or not to come clean and destroy yourself.
posted by three blind mice at 9:26 AM on October 7, 2015 [7 favorites]
What I've read about this is a mixed bag. I've heard to admit your mistakes during polygraph and explain your usage and they can typically see past it.
I was talking to a guy who was in a similar boat. I'll share what he told me, perhaps it will flesh out the context of their drug use/criminal conviction policies, not that it directly answers your question. He said that because firefighters are constantly in people's homes, presented with the opportunity for theft as well as presented with homeowners' own drugs which may be scattered around and readily accessible to firefighters while the owner is not home, they take a zero-exceptions approach to these rules. Maybe that varies by locality, but I found it interesting.
posted by jayder at 9:30 AM on October 7, 2015 [2 favorites]
I was talking to a guy who was in a similar boat. I'll share what he told me, perhaps it will flesh out the context of their drug use/criminal conviction policies, not that it directly answers your question. He said that because firefighters are constantly in people's homes, presented with the opportunity for theft as well as presented with homeowners' own drugs which may be scattered around and readily accessible to firefighters while the owner is not home, they take a zero-exceptions approach to these rules. Maybe that varies by locality, but I found it interesting.
posted by jayder at 9:30 AM on October 7, 2015 [2 favorites]
Don't admit it - ever - and if accused, deny it, deny it, deny it.
Please don't do this. The thing about background investigations is that they aren't just going to talk to you and your chosen references. They will ask your references for other people they should talk to. And ask those people who they should talk to. So unless you created the drugs yourself in your basement using completely innocuous ingredients from the grocery store and only every used by yourself and never talked about the usage with anyone ever and are 1000% certain no one else in the entire world knows you used, be honest.
I've gone through a lot of background investigations for jobs. Seriously, making mistakes and being honest about them and showing how you moved forward from them is going to be regarded much better than dishonesty. Also, say you decide to lie and this is discovered by a department and you are disqualified. And you want to apply again at another department. Be aware that the second department may very well check your applications/backgrounds from the first department and find out that you lied to them. So even if you are honest with the second, they can find out you lied before, and out you go.
Can you find out if the rules regarding drug use are set by the individual departments or by the state? If it's up to the state, it might be easier to find out anonymously if waivers are ever granted. If it's the department, can you set up a new email address and email HR or recruiter with questions? Or ask a friend to ask questions at a career fair?
I think Etrigan and k8t offer good insight. In my neck of the woods, firefighter positions are incredibly competitive and departments have their pick of candidates. I think you'll better your odds by giving it a few years and applying after the required time periods. In the meantime, do what you can to show how you are preparing to be a firefighter - classes, following the department exercise programs, networking, volunteering, whatever will show that you are very serious about becoming a firefighter. Good luck!
posted by Beti at 10:03 AM on October 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
Please don't do this. The thing about background investigations is that they aren't just going to talk to you and your chosen references. They will ask your references for other people they should talk to. And ask those people who they should talk to. So unless you created the drugs yourself in your basement using completely innocuous ingredients from the grocery store and only every used by yourself and never talked about the usage with anyone ever and are 1000% certain no one else in the entire world knows you used, be honest.
I've gone through a lot of background investigations for jobs. Seriously, making mistakes and being honest about them and showing how you moved forward from them is going to be regarded much better than dishonesty. Also, say you decide to lie and this is discovered by a department and you are disqualified. And you want to apply again at another department. Be aware that the second department may very well check your applications/backgrounds from the first department and find out that you lied to them. So even if you are honest with the second, they can find out you lied before, and out you go.
Can you find out if the rules regarding drug use are set by the individual departments or by the state? If it's up to the state, it might be easier to find out anonymously if waivers are ever granted. If it's the department, can you set up a new email address and email HR or recruiter with questions? Or ask a friend to ask questions at a career fair?
I think Etrigan and k8t offer good insight. In my neck of the woods, firefighter positions are incredibly competitive and departments have their pick of candidates. I think you'll better your odds by giving it a few years and applying after the required time periods. In the meantime, do what you can to show how you are preparing to be a firefighter - classes, following the department exercise programs, networking, volunteering, whatever will show that you are very serious about becoming a firefighter. Good luck!
posted by Beti at 10:03 AM on October 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
Take a lesson from Lance Armstrong. Did you ever fail a drug test? Have you ever been arrested for possession? In this game, absence of evidence is evidence of absence. Don't admit it - ever - and if accused, deny it, deny it, deny it. The burden is totally on the accuser, don't help them along.
I applied to work at a law enforcement agency once, and they had a 40 page background check form that included all manner of questions, including listing literally dozens of coworkers, managers, neighbors, family and friends. Presumably, they talk to these people. If one of them contradicts you, you're not getting hired. If it somehow comes out later, you might be fired.
You might get away with lying, but it's an ongoing risk.
I was specifically told as part of that application process that one of my potential coworkers (not which individual) had used cocaine in the past and was hired anyway. I'm not sure how to answer your question, but that was my experience.
posted by cnc at 10:04 AM on October 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
I applied to work at a law enforcement agency once, and they had a 40 page background check form that included all manner of questions, including listing literally dozens of coworkers, managers, neighbors, family and friends. Presumably, they talk to these people. If one of them contradicts you, you're not getting hired. If it somehow comes out later, you might be fired.
You might get away with lying, but it's an ongoing risk.
I was specifically told as part of that application process that one of my potential coworkers (not which individual) had used cocaine in the past and was hired anyway. I'm not sure how to answer your question, but that was my experience.
posted by cnc at 10:04 AM on October 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
Your local fire department administers polygraph tests?! I would research exactly what they do for background checks.
My guess is that you pay for a basic, electronic criminal background check, and they require a drug test at a local lab. I would be surprised if they have the budget to be doing this level of extensive background check for a firefighter position. If you've never been arrested and you're willing to be abstinent (including from marijuana) while you pursue this, I don't see why anyone needs to know, or would ever conceivably find out!
posted by latkes at 12:26 PM on October 7, 2015 [3 favorites]
My guess is that you pay for a basic, electronic criminal background check, and they require a drug test at a local lab. I would be surprised if they have the budget to be doing this level of extensive background check for a firefighter position. If you've never been arrested and you're willing to be abstinent (including from marijuana) while you pursue this, I don't see why anyone needs to know, or would ever conceivably find out!
posted by latkes at 12:26 PM on October 7, 2015 [3 favorites]
My partner is a firefighter. He went for city first, and is now in wildland. City (structural) firefighters are required to be 100% up-front and honest about the nature of their history as part of the application process. They will give you the opportunity to disclose voluntarily, then ask you for a laundry list of everyone who knows you well or is close to you (even co-workers and acquaintances) so they can corroborate what you've told them and then some.
To give you an idea, I was asked: how serious our relationship was and whether we planned on staying together, what I've heard from his friends about him, how trustworthy I think he is, when his (old!) DUI happened and if I knew what the circumstances were, and so on and so on. Believe it, they have the time and the means to do so, and they will find the dirt.
What's more important is your ability to be honest and forthcoming, they won't ding you for prior hard drug usage if you admit to it outright, as opposed to writing you off immediately when they find out from your old college roommate that you once stayed up for 48 hours straight smoking weed and playing Civ 5. It's the same for DUIs, arrests, or any illegal activity you might have participated in recently, even if you didn't get caught or it didn't result in a conviction.
The people hiring want to know the quality of your character because you will eventually have the lives of your coworkers in your hands, not to mention the kinds of long-term relationships you need to form with your station crew in order to trust each other like that.
posted by Snacks at 12:46 PM on October 7, 2015 [3 favorites]
To give you an idea, I was asked: how serious our relationship was and whether we planned on staying together, what I've heard from his friends about him, how trustworthy I think he is, when his (old!) DUI happened and if I knew what the circumstances were, and so on and so on. Believe it, they have the time and the means to do so, and they will find the dirt.
What's more important is your ability to be honest and forthcoming, they won't ding you for prior hard drug usage if you admit to it outright, as opposed to writing you off immediately when they find out from your old college roommate that you once stayed up for 48 hours straight smoking weed and playing Civ 5. It's the same for DUIs, arrests, or any illegal activity you might have participated in recently, even if you didn't get caught or it didn't result in a conviction.
The people hiring want to know the quality of your character because you will eventually have the lives of your coworkers in your hands, not to mention the kinds of long-term relationships you need to form with your station crew in order to trust each other like that.
posted by Snacks at 12:46 PM on October 7, 2015 [3 favorites]
Former paid firefighter, current paramedic here. For large city departments, there is generally a very competitive process including a polygraph and they will often stick to their guns about the length of time since past use. However I know people with distant DUIs and substance abuse (actual dependence, not experimentation) in their past who currently have a job in said large city departments.
In the meantime between now and your 3- or 5-year mark (whichever comes sooner) there are plenty of places where you can gain experience which may help you get hired to your big city department. Most hospital-based, small fire department based, and third-service EMS departments do not polygraph or care about past use; they just have you pee in a cup when you are first hired and if you get into a motor vehicle collision with the ambulance.
Also, smaller "combination" volunteer/paid departments and all-volunteer departments generally won't polygraph. Some don't even drug test. You probably won't get hired at a smaller department without experience, but you may be able to volunteer to get that experience. Also, volunteer departments may reimburse you for your EMT course and will certainly send you to the fire academy.
Stop using now, and take your time strengthening your application. You should be fine once you are past the alloted time period. MeMail me if you have any questions about the application process, the job, training for physical tests, EMS tips and tricks, any of it. I enjoy talking shop.
posted by skyl1n3 at 3:40 PM on October 7, 2015 [7 favorites]
In the meantime between now and your 3- or 5-year mark (whichever comes sooner) there are plenty of places where you can gain experience which may help you get hired to your big city department. Most hospital-based, small fire department based, and third-service EMS departments do not polygraph or care about past use; they just have you pee in a cup when you are first hired and if you get into a motor vehicle collision with the ambulance.
Also, smaller "combination" volunteer/paid departments and all-volunteer departments generally won't polygraph. Some don't even drug test. You probably won't get hired at a smaller department without experience, but you may be able to volunteer to get that experience. Also, volunteer departments may reimburse you for your EMT course and will certainly send you to the fire academy.
Stop using now, and take your time strengthening your application. You should be fine once you are past the alloted time period. MeMail me if you have any questions about the application process, the job, training for physical tests, EMS tips and tricks, any of it. I enjoy talking shop.
posted by skyl1n3 at 3:40 PM on October 7, 2015 [7 favorites]
I'm a career firefighter. My department often receives 1000 applicants for about 30 recruit positions, so scale this advice as needed to your own circumstances.
First, lying is the one thing that will get you instantly fired in my department. The public should have complete trust in us, and we must trust each other with our lives, so any duplicity is dealt with swiftly and harshly. I do not think it's a good idea to lie about your drug use. Any whiff of BS on your background check will likely get you passed over for one of the many other qualified applicants. Many departments administer polygraphs and conduct real background checks. People outside of fire/rescue have no idea how extensively candidates are vetted. You should notice that everyone in this thread with direct experience with the field has confirmed that this is a real and significant hurdle.
In my department, previous drug use hasn't been an automatic disqualifier, but they're looking for a certain amount of time since the last use, and a certain degree of involvement. We don't publicize the exact cut-off points; I assume that's so people don't try to game the system. In general, though, I would take their word for it when they give you the numbers. They really don't care about why, or whether it qualified as abuse, just that you've shown yourself able to meet their expectations.
You should consider ceasing all drug use and delaying your application to increase your odds. In the meantime, you can gain some experience with non-emergency medical transports, or by volunteering with an agency with less stringent background evaluation.
Fire & Rescue is an incredible career, and I completely understand your interest. You may have to bide your time in preparation, but you may yet be successful in getting in.
posted by itstheclamsname at 7:16 PM on October 7, 2015 [3 favorites]
First, lying is the one thing that will get you instantly fired in my department. The public should have complete trust in us, and we must trust each other with our lives, so any duplicity is dealt with swiftly and harshly. I do not think it's a good idea to lie about your drug use. Any whiff of BS on your background check will likely get you passed over for one of the many other qualified applicants. Many departments administer polygraphs and conduct real background checks. People outside of fire/rescue have no idea how extensively candidates are vetted. You should notice that everyone in this thread with direct experience with the field has confirmed that this is a real and significant hurdle.
In my department, previous drug use hasn't been an automatic disqualifier, but they're looking for a certain amount of time since the last use, and a certain degree of involvement. We don't publicize the exact cut-off points; I assume that's so people don't try to game the system. In general, though, I would take their word for it when they give you the numbers. They really don't care about why, or whether it qualified as abuse, just that you've shown yourself able to meet their expectations.
You should consider ceasing all drug use and delaying your application to increase your odds. In the meantime, you can gain some experience with non-emergency medical transports, or by volunteering with an agency with less stringent background evaluation.
Fire & Rescue is an incredible career, and I completely understand your interest. You may have to bide your time in preparation, but you may yet be successful in getting in.
posted by itstheclamsname at 7:16 PM on October 7, 2015 [3 favorites]
There are regulations which vary by state and govern exactly what you can be asked under polygraph. You should become familiar with those in your municipality. Generally there's a fixed list of questions. You want to be confident you can answer those questions satisfactorily, because not being able to could cause you to fail the polygraph.
As for anything else, not on the polygraph? I would personally not admit to illegal activity, in any context, ever, except on the advice of a lawyer working for me (or unless it was already on the record, I suppose). I know lots of people in law enforcement who I think hold identical views. I would be very cautious, without being duplicitous.
posted by Kadin2048 at 7:18 PM on October 7, 2015
As for anything else, not on the polygraph? I would personally not admit to illegal activity, in any context, ever, except on the advice of a lawyer working for me (or unless it was already on the record, I suppose). I know lots of people in law enforcement who I think hold identical views. I would be very cautious, without being duplicitous.
posted by Kadin2048 at 7:18 PM on October 7, 2015
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by k8t at 8:51 AM on October 7, 2015 [1 favorite]