Because rolling my eyes won't be motivational.
October 4, 2015 7:37 AM Subscribe
PhD student says he struggles to feel motivated since his wife's grandfather passed away two weeks ago. I'm supposed to motivate him. Advice?
I'm a fairly young faculty member.
I'm supervising my first PhD student. I'm finding it hard to keep him on-track. I've offered him opportunities that he passed up (for example: an all expense paid trip to an international conference to organize a panel). When I've given him advice on my view of academia, he doesn't seem to take it seriously.
Important to know: He suffered from professional exhaustion last year and is in therapy for anxiety.
I'm at my wit's end. How do I get him back on track? How do I get him to take my advice seriously?
I'm a fairly young faculty member.
I'm supervising my first PhD student. I'm finding it hard to keep him on-track. I've offered him opportunities that he passed up (for example: an all expense paid trip to an international conference to organize a panel). When I've given him advice on my view of academia, he doesn't seem to take it seriously.
Important to know: He suffered from professional exhaustion last year and is in therapy for anxiety.
I'm at my wit's end. How do I get him back on track? How do I get him to take my advice seriously?
By showing some empathy. The guy is grieving and exhausted. Getting a PhD is hard enough as it is; trying to work towards one in the midst of family tragedy ads a whole extra level of tough to the experience. But what really wrecks students' spirits is having an advisor who literally wants to roll their eyes any time they're honest about how overwhelmed they are, which is the type of advisor you seem to be. Drop the callousness or transfer this guy to a colleague who has a kinder heart than you do. You're going about motivating him in the wrong way.
posted by Hermione Granger at 7:47 AM on October 4, 2015 [68 favorites]
posted by Hermione Granger at 7:47 AM on October 4, 2015 [68 favorites]
Also it is important to acknowledge that people work in different ways. When you get together with friends at conferences discuss this. It will open your eyes.
But truly if the student isn't motivated it isn't your job to fix him.
posted by k8t at 7:53 AM on October 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
But truly if the student isn't motivated it isn't your job to fix him.
posted by k8t at 7:53 AM on October 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
I'm a high school teacher at a school for kids with emotional disabilities. Pretty much all of my students have anxiety which can flare up at any given time.
A huge part of my work is to get kids able to work when they're in distress and I know what you're saying: it's not easy. And yes, sometimes I have to suppress the temptation to yell at them to grow a pair or roll my eyes and scream some people have real problems and I'm sorry that you are unable to cope with school right now because sad.
But it's part of the work that we do. You need to be able to be supportive and simultaneously give students a sympathetic kick in the ass.
The trick to this is helping him plan. What does he feel he can do in the next hour, the next day, the next week? Does a week feel overwhelming to plan? Then scale it back.
Help him see there are steps he can put into place right now. Have him figure out what will motivate him. Maybe he can do X for a certain period of time and then he can have a treat, like a really good coffee. Then he can do some more.
When a person isn't motivated then we need to figure out, as their teachers/supervisors how to help them see that they can actually do the thing. Right now this guy feels down and he can't put steps into place that will help him get through a hard time.
So help him pull things apart and get back on the road to success. Be a cheerleader. Remind him of what he's done well. (And FWIW, organizing an international panel sounds really daunting. Did you help him with how something like that is done or present it as A MASSIVE THING without steps?)
posted by kinetic at 8:01 AM on October 4, 2015 [44 favorites]
A huge part of my work is to get kids able to work when they're in distress and I know what you're saying: it's not easy. And yes, sometimes I have to suppress the temptation to yell at them to grow a pair or roll my eyes and scream some people have real problems and I'm sorry that you are unable to cope with school right now because sad.
But it's part of the work that we do. You need to be able to be supportive and simultaneously give students a sympathetic kick in the ass.
The trick to this is helping him plan. What does he feel he can do in the next hour, the next day, the next week? Does a week feel overwhelming to plan? Then scale it back.
Help him see there are steps he can put into place right now. Have him figure out what will motivate him. Maybe he can do X for a certain period of time and then he can have a treat, like a really good coffee. Then he can do some more.
When a person isn't motivated then we need to figure out, as their teachers/supervisors how to help them see that they can actually do the thing. Right now this guy feels down and he can't put steps into place that will help him get through a hard time.
So help him pull things apart and get back on the road to success. Be a cheerleader. Remind him of what he's done well. (And FWIW, organizing an international panel sounds really daunting. Did you help him with how something like that is done or present it as A MASSIVE THING without steps?)
posted by kinetic at 8:01 AM on October 4, 2015 [44 favorites]
Marriage counselors try to get couples to remember how they felt about each other when they fell in love. Was this guy ever in love with his subject? (Also, was this student "your" student from the beginning, or has he been dumped on you? Because the previous professor retired? Or?)
posted by puddledork at 8:01 AM on October 4, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by puddledork at 8:01 AM on October 4, 2015 [3 favorites]
Response by poster: Thanks for your responses thus far.
I appreciate everyone's advice. If you have experience as a faculty member, I would appreciate you pointing this out.
About empathy: the student chose me as a supervisor because he perceives me to be empathetic. These are just the most recent in a series of reasons why he hands assignments in late. But clearly, some have more empathy than I do and I appreciate the sense of empathy I get from their advice.
posted by Milau at 8:01 AM on October 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
I appreciate everyone's advice. If you have experience as a faculty member, I would appreciate you pointing this out.
About empathy: the student chose me as a supervisor because he perceives me to be empathetic. These are just the most recent in a series of reasons why he hands assignments in late. But clearly, some have more empathy than I do and I appreciate the sense of empathy I get from their advice.
posted by Milau at 8:01 AM on October 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
When I've given him advice on my view of academia, he doesn't seem to take it seriously.
Do you know what his professional goals are? (Does he?) Does he intend to stay in academia?
posted by deludingmyself at 8:01 AM on October 4, 2015
Do you know what his professional goals are? (Does he?) Does he intend to stay in academia?
posted by deludingmyself at 8:01 AM on October 4, 2015
You're not supposed to motivate him, you're supposed to advise him. If he doesn't want to be advised, perhaps he take leave from his studies until he can get his head on straight.
posted by Scram at 8:03 AM on October 4, 2015 [13 favorites]
posted by Scram at 8:03 AM on October 4, 2015 [13 favorites]
Response by poster: He approached me on the advice of another professor at another university.
Do you know what his professional goals are? (Does he?) Does he intend to stay in academia?
He's told me he would like to have a career in academia. He wants to be a professor.
Which is why I don't understand why he doesn't listen to my advice or take up the opportunities I offer him.
posted by Milau at 8:05 AM on October 4, 2015
Do you know what his professional goals are? (Does he?) Does he intend to stay in academia?
He's told me he would like to have a career in academia. He wants to be a professor.
Which is why I don't understand why he doesn't listen to my advice or take up the opportunities I offer him.
posted by Milau at 8:05 AM on October 4, 2015
I am a retired academic. When I was doing my thesis, I had also a job part time teaching and fell behind on my thesis writing. My advisor finally told me to write something each day, no matter how little, but write daily. Do not, he said, put off till some time later on. He was right. By working daily I kept on top of my thesis.
In passing, the notion of being depressed because a wife's grandfather passed away two weeks ago seems a lame excuse.
posted by Postroad at 8:10 AM on October 4, 2015 [24 favorites]
In passing, the notion of being depressed because a wife's grandfather passed away two weeks ago seems a lame excuse.
posted by Postroad at 8:10 AM on October 4, 2015 [24 favorites]
Here's the thing y'all... Academia is really intense in specific ways. If you don't wake up every morning wanting to do your research, it makes the pain of doing exams, writing a dissertation, going on the job market, writing articles and books, going up for tenure, etc. (all while being underpaid and overworked) next to impossible.
This student is going to have to compete for academic jobs with dozens of other people who are actually motivated. And if he doesn't want an academic job, which is what we tenure track professors know best... He is going to have to forge his own path to it.
That motivation to do this stuff every day is an internal drive. PhD advisors advise... But it isn't like working with a high school student or undergrad where you also have an obligation to make them do the work.
(I am also a TT professor.)
posted by k8t at 8:11 AM on October 4, 2015 [18 favorites]
This student is going to have to compete for academic jobs with dozens of other people who are actually motivated. And if he doesn't want an academic job, which is what we tenure track professors know best... He is going to have to forge his own path to it.
That motivation to do this stuff every day is an internal drive. PhD advisors advise... But it isn't like working with a high school student or undergrad where you also have an obligation to make them do the work.
(I am also a TT professor.)
posted by k8t at 8:11 AM on October 4, 2015 [18 favorites]
Director of Graduate Studies for a university department here... this is, in part, what DGSes are for.
Contacting your DGS has two purposes: one, to steer the student to resources for help, if needed. Two, to cover your butt while simultaneously making sure that you're doing the best job you can with this student.
If you were to come to me with a student like this, I'd sit down with you and figure out what (if anything) we'd need to do. I'd probably, at a minimum, do a few behind-the-scenes checks. If student's still in classes, I'd make sure that he's attending rather than skipping out.
If the student weren't already in therapy, I would discuss with you the possibility of suggesting a mental-health evaluation to the student via student health services.
A good DGS won't intervene unless necessary, but it's good to put a potential problem on the radar before a situation gets out of control... and this sounds like an early-stage problem.
And as a DGS, I'd be grateful that you're keeping an eye out -- it's a good prof. who can spot issues before they become critical.
The key thing to remember is that it's not your responsibility alone... and that there are some things that you can't fix. But if you use the resources at your disposal to the best of your ability, you're doing right by your student.
posted by cgs06 at 8:12 AM on October 4, 2015 [31 favorites]
Contacting your DGS has two purposes: one, to steer the student to resources for help, if needed. Two, to cover your butt while simultaneously making sure that you're doing the best job you can with this student.
If you were to come to me with a student like this, I'd sit down with you and figure out what (if anything) we'd need to do. I'd probably, at a minimum, do a few behind-the-scenes checks. If student's still in classes, I'd make sure that he's attending rather than skipping out.
If the student weren't already in therapy, I would discuss with you the possibility of suggesting a mental-health evaluation to the student via student health services.
A good DGS won't intervene unless necessary, but it's good to put a potential problem on the radar before a situation gets out of control... and this sounds like an early-stage problem.
And as a DGS, I'd be grateful that you're keeping an eye out -- it's a good prof. who can spot issues before they become critical.
The key thing to remember is that it's not your responsibility alone... and that there are some things that you can't fix. But if you use the resources at your disposal to the best of your ability, you're doing right by your student.
posted by cgs06 at 8:12 AM on October 4, 2015 [31 favorites]
this is hard for a pile of reasons, and more so if it's your first student.
you need to talk to other, more experienced people in your dept and look at how this kind of thing is handled internally. to what extent, for example, do you need to doing things now so that if things get worse down the line you have options open (like switching him to a masters)? what are hard deadlines and what is flexible? how do others (who might have taught them as an undergrad, for example) feel about them as a student? is there some way you can swing a 6 month break - some way to suspend funding, perhaps?
you also need to be clear on what your responsibility is. this gets easier with experience, and with age (because that puts a difference between you and the student - at the moment it's easy for you to feel like this is as much a friendship as a professional relationship). it's not, in my opinion, your job to motivate a phd student. they are now at the stage in life where they should be doing something they want to do. and if they don't want to do it, they should be looking for something else. for their sake as much as anything.
at the same time, we're all human, and you want to help if you can. part of helping is being understanding and flexible. part is knowing what the options are (see above) and explaining them clearly. part can also be being disciplined and doing the cross shouty thing, if you think it will help. part may be going out and getting drunk with them. or being more hands on, with weekly check-ups. exactly what you do depends a lot on you as a person. it may help to think "what kind of supervisor am i?" and then work back from that.
but if they won't listen, that's ok. it's their life. do what you can, what seems right, and follow the route that makes sense. there's a process for handling students that can't complete. that's ok. it's a normal part of the job.
source: my partner is an academic who has been through this multiple times (she's asleep right now, but when she wakes up i'll read this to her and ask if there's anything to add/correct). students vary hugely. it's a pity your first one is hard. good luck to both of you.
posted by andrewcooke at 8:12 AM on October 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
you need to talk to other, more experienced people in your dept and look at how this kind of thing is handled internally. to what extent, for example, do you need to doing things now so that if things get worse down the line you have options open (like switching him to a masters)? what are hard deadlines and what is flexible? how do others (who might have taught them as an undergrad, for example) feel about them as a student? is there some way you can swing a 6 month break - some way to suspend funding, perhaps?
you also need to be clear on what your responsibility is. this gets easier with experience, and with age (because that puts a difference between you and the student - at the moment it's easy for you to feel like this is as much a friendship as a professional relationship). it's not, in my opinion, your job to motivate a phd student. they are now at the stage in life where they should be doing something they want to do. and if they don't want to do it, they should be looking for something else. for their sake as much as anything.
at the same time, we're all human, and you want to help if you can. part of helping is being understanding and flexible. part is knowing what the options are (see above) and explaining them clearly. part can also be being disciplined and doing the cross shouty thing, if you think it will help. part may be going out and getting drunk with them. or being more hands on, with weekly check-ups. exactly what you do depends a lot on you as a person. it may help to think "what kind of supervisor am i?" and then work back from that.
but if they won't listen, that's ok. it's their life. do what you can, what seems right, and follow the route that makes sense. there's a process for handling students that can't complete. that's ok. it's a normal part of the job.
source: my partner is an academic who has been through this multiple times (she's asleep right now, but when she wakes up i'll read this to her and ask if there's anything to add/correct). students vary hugely. it's a pity your first one is hard. good luck to both of you.
posted by andrewcooke at 8:12 AM on October 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
It might be helpful to look at the type of advice you're giving him -- that is, whether you're telling him what to do or if you're helping him figure out the ways he works best. I think young managers/advisors/therapists (my field) often tend to think our job is telling people what to do, when it's generally more helpful to point out people's strengths, focus on and strengthen the parts of the process that are working, and then shore up some of the deficits while being aware that no one's process is perfect.
If you're getting a lot of "Yes butting," that's a good sign that you may be relying too much on giving advice and so triggering your student's defenses. With clients in such a situation, I remind myself that it's not my job to figure out the client's life but to help talk about the pros and cons of their own ideas. I realize that an academic adviser should ideally be a bit more forceful on some things than a therapist, but it may still be helpful to sit back a bit more and encourage your student to generate ideas for moving forward, rather than handing them to him. You might also benefit from learning a bit about motivational interviewing; again, I know you're not a therapist, but the idea of stages of change might help you conceptualize the problem more effectively.
posted by jaguar at 8:16 AM on October 4, 2015 [20 favorites]
If you're getting a lot of "Yes butting," that's a good sign that you may be relying too much on giving advice and so triggering your student's defenses. With clients in such a situation, I remind myself that it's not my job to figure out the client's life but to help talk about the pros and cons of their own ideas. I realize that an academic adviser should ideally be a bit more forceful on some things than a therapist, but it may still be helpful to sit back a bit more and encourage your student to generate ideas for moving forward, rather than handing them to him. You might also benefit from learning a bit about motivational interviewing; again, I know you're not a therapist, but the idea of stages of change might help you conceptualize the problem more effectively.
posted by jaguar at 8:16 AM on October 4, 2015 [20 favorites]
He's told me he would like to have a career in academia. He wants to be a professor.
I had a PhD student who wanted to be a professor. He thought if he did a good enough PhD someone would offer him one. He thought a lot of things about academia and about the two fields he was trying to work in that were also largely wrong. He took not a blind bit of notice of anyone who offered him advice in this area. When he went off-topic from the areas myself and his other supervisor work in and we got him a new advisor he ignored their input too. You cannot really change the minds of people like this, they will need to find out for themselves (or they can give up and blame you, but you can't do much to change that either).
I suspect you might be running two problems together here. The long term problem of not listening may not really the same problem of him being in a difficult position emotionally, either in the short term as regards the bereavement or the long term problem of burnout. You do need to provide more sympathetic support in that regard both ethically and because at the end of the day your institution probably does have a duty of care that you may be dropping the ball on. Look into support from the institution, get some advice from more senior colleagues about this. At the same time look to get some advice on dealing with students who don't listen, perhaps (later, when he is in a better place for it) sit him down with a senior colleague and get them to lead a conversation about their goals and have them provide feedback on goals and appropriate behaviours for achieving those goals. Hopefully this may reinforce some of your advice and suggestions, it may even open up other options you haven't thought of. It also means you can point to concrete actions you have taken to get things on track.
posted by biffa at 8:35 AM on October 4, 2015 [3 favorites]
I had a PhD student who wanted to be a professor. He thought if he did a good enough PhD someone would offer him one. He thought a lot of things about academia and about the two fields he was trying to work in that were also largely wrong. He took not a blind bit of notice of anyone who offered him advice in this area. When he went off-topic from the areas myself and his other supervisor work in and we got him a new advisor he ignored their input too. You cannot really change the minds of people like this, they will need to find out for themselves (or they can give up and blame you, but you can't do much to change that either).
I suspect you might be running two problems together here. The long term problem of not listening may not really the same problem of him being in a difficult position emotionally, either in the short term as regards the bereavement or the long term problem of burnout. You do need to provide more sympathetic support in that regard both ethically and because at the end of the day your institution probably does have a duty of care that you may be dropping the ball on. Look into support from the institution, get some advice from more senior colleagues about this. At the same time look to get some advice on dealing with students who don't listen, perhaps (later, when he is in a better place for it) sit him down with a senior colleague and get them to lead a conversation about their goals and have them provide feedback on goals and appropriate behaviours for achieving those goals. Hopefully this may reinforce some of your advice and suggestions, it may even open up other options you haven't thought of. It also means you can point to concrete actions you have taken to get things on track.
posted by biffa at 8:35 AM on October 4, 2015 [3 favorites]
I'm a tenured prof at an R1 with a lot of PhD advisees.
You are not his shrink. You are not his high school teacher. You are supposed to be his professional support and guide and mentor, but you are not his shrink or high school teacher.
Referring someone to therapy, or just suggesting they consider it, is appropriate. Acting like a therapist isn't.
Here's the thing. It's no favor to over-support someone who doesn't really burn for an academic career. He'll invest years and years, and then not have success, unless he can find his own autonomous engine.
The kindest thing you can do is let him know that you're there for him, that when he's ready you'll edit his work and help him make connections and fight for him when it comes to funding and opportunities. But you have to wait til you see some progress. You'll be there when he's ready.
Get clear on the boundary between his responsibility and yours. It'll be easier not to want to roll your eyes and to have empathy once you're clearer on that.
posted by flourpot at 8:40 AM on October 4, 2015 [29 favorites]
You are not his shrink. You are not his high school teacher. You are supposed to be his professional support and guide and mentor, but you are not his shrink or high school teacher.
Referring someone to therapy, or just suggesting they consider it, is appropriate. Acting like a therapist isn't.
Here's the thing. It's no favor to over-support someone who doesn't really burn for an academic career. He'll invest years and years, and then not have success, unless he can find his own autonomous engine.
The kindest thing you can do is let him know that you're there for him, that when he's ready you'll edit his work and help him make connections and fight for him when it comes to funding and opportunities. But you have to wait til you see some progress. You'll be there when he's ready.
Get clear on the boundary between his responsibility and yours. It'll be easier not to want to roll your eyes and to have empathy once you're clearer on that.
posted by flourpot at 8:40 AM on October 4, 2015 [29 favorites]
I'm not a faculty member, but I am an academic advisor for undergrads. I'm also someone who didn't complete a PhD in large part because of anxiety issues.
The thing about anxiety is that it's not rational. You can't reason someone out of it, because the problem isn't a failure of reason. I'm having an anxiety episode right now, because I'm leaving for a business trip in an hour. This is totally irrational: I'm all ready to go, I know exactly what I'm doing, the trip itself should be totally fine, and all I need to do is sit here and twiddle my thumbs for a while. But even though there is no reason to be anxious, and I know there's no reason to be anxious, I'm nauseous and lightheaded and sitting here taking deep cleansing breaths trying to prevent a full-blown panic attack. You couldn't talk me out of it by pointing out that I'm ready to go and there's nothing to worry about, because I already know that, and here I still am.
I think you can help your student by being a calm, reassuring, non-judgmental presence in his life, by assuring him that you will continue to want to help him when he is in a position to use your help, and by pointing him in the direction of resources to help him deal with his anxiety.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 8:46 AM on October 4, 2015 [10 favorites]
The thing about anxiety is that it's not rational. You can't reason someone out of it, because the problem isn't a failure of reason. I'm having an anxiety episode right now, because I'm leaving for a business trip in an hour. This is totally irrational: I'm all ready to go, I know exactly what I'm doing, the trip itself should be totally fine, and all I need to do is sit here and twiddle my thumbs for a while. But even though there is no reason to be anxious, and I know there's no reason to be anxious, I'm nauseous and lightheaded and sitting here taking deep cleansing breaths trying to prevent a full-blown panic attack. You couldn't talk me out of it by pointing out that I'm ready to go and there's nothing to worry about, because I already know that, and here I still am.
I think you can help your student by being a calm, reassuring, non-judgmental presence in his life, by assuring him that you will continue to want to help him when he is in a position to use your help, and by pointing him in the direction of resources to help him deal with his anxiety.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 8:46 AM on October 4, 2015 [10 favorites]
There are perhaps some self-motivation issues that might make me wonder whether there is a string of excuses that are enabling him to put things off. However, that's the cynical part of me from a lot of years of teaching and seeing what students do. Of late, I've also determined to give students the benefit of the doubt at face value rather than second-guessing motivations, unless I have good reason to believe otherwise.
In this case, I might wonder if what he's telling you is that this particular situation is especially hard on his wife, and that adds a dynamic to PhD work that can be difficult. When your partner is hurting, it's really hard (and probably irresponsible) to just press on like academia is most important. If he has had a hard time before now due to mental health reasons, this is likely another straw on the question of whether or not it's worth pressing on with other life obligations.
You might ask him what he thinks would need to happen for him to succeed, and then do everything you can in your power to make it happen, within the program allowances. Not only is an ally in one's corner a big motivation for continuing on, but it creates a solid plan that moves towards succeeding, or bumping up whether your program can indefinitely extend grace beyond a certain time. But I'd certainly lean on grace, to the extent of your abilities, because sometimes it's effective in ways that we don't always see immediately.
One option might be to give him a leave of absence for a year to rest from mental exhaustion and to tend to the immediate needs of his family. If it's something he really can't do at the end of the day due to motivation, it will become more apparent after a year, probably not less. Or, it might just be the thing he'd need to recharge his batteries and keep going.
posted by SpacemanStix at 8:56 AM on October 4, 2015 [3 favorites]
In this case, I might wonder if what he's telling you is that this particular situation is especially hard on his wife, and that adds a dynamic to PhD work that can be difficult. When your partner is hurting, it's really hard (and probably irresponsible) to just press on like academia is most important. If he has had a hard time before now due to mental health reasons, this is likely another straw on the question of whether or not it's worth pressing on with other life obligations.
You might ask him what he thinks would need to happen for him to succeed, and then do everything you can in your power to make it happen, within the program allowances. Not only is an ally in one's corner a big motivation for continuing on, but it creates a solid plan that moves towards succeeding, or bumping up whether your program can indefinitely extend grace beyond a certain time. But I'd certainly lean on grace, to the extent of your abilities, because sometimes it's effective in ways that we don't always see immediately.
One option might be to give him a leave of absence for a year to rest from mental exhaustion and to tend to the immediate needs of his family. If it's something he really can't do at the end of the day due to motivation, it will become more apparent after a year, probably not less. Or, it might just be the thing he'd need to recharge his batteries and keep going.
posted by SpacemanStix at 8:56 AM on October 4, 2015 [3 favorites]
Response by poster: I am finding this advice very useful and encouraging.
To add about what I know about the situation: yes he is in therapy. He has already taken a 6 month leave for professional exhaustion and anxiety with my full support. He has been back for about 3 months.
I wouldn't be posting and asking for advice if I didn't want to support the student in the best way possible.
posted by Milau at 9:02 AM on October 4, 2015 [4 favorites]
To add about what I know about the situation: yes he is in therapy. He has already taken a 6 month leave for professional exhaustion and anxiety with my full support. He has been back for about 3 months.
I wouldn't be posting and asking for advice if I didn't want to support the student in the best way possible.
posted by Milau at 9:02 AM on October 4, 2015 [4 favorites]
As a former PhD student in the humanities, I have witnessed many different kinds of advisor-advisee relationships, and it is worth considering what kind of relationship you have with this student and what kind of relationships you want with your adivsees going forward. Most of the breakdowns in good will that I have seen between advisors and advisees had to do with incompatibilities in the unspoken expectations on each side, along with the disappointment and resentment that can build up when people don't act as you wish.
For instance! Some advisors want to have close, personal relationships with their students, and feel hurt and rejected when students don't want to share intimate details about their lives. Other advisors want to maintain very strict professional boundaries, and are dismayed by oversharing students. Or, some advisors expect their students to do everything that they tell them to do, and are frustrated when students reject their instructions. Other advisors expect that their students will solicit advice from multiple sources and make their own judgements, and think that students who rely on them too much are needy or can't stand on their own. Similarly, every student will want different things from their advisors.
It is also worth remembering that sometimes students have completely rational reasons for disregarding the advice of their advisors, even if they don't share those reasons. Some advisors, for instance, will disengage if a student is thinking about a non-academic career. Some advisors disrespect students who privilege other life activities or events over academic commitments. Some advisors give advice that is well-meaning but does not apply to their students given their gender, race, religious, or class background. (For example, a student might not organize a panel for a conference if their best friend is getting married that weekend, but they might not feel like they could tell you that. Or, advice about taking a strong negotiating position re: a job offer might not apply in the same way if the advisor is a man and the student is a woman. Or, a student might intend to apply for jobs in a different field, and so publishing in the advisor's preferred journals might not be in their best interest.)
Other people have had great suggestions about resources for helping and understanding this particular student, but I think that keeping all this in mind will also help to dial down some of the emotional content of your situation. You sound very frustrated and like you are taking his rejection of your advice personally, and it is worth reminding yourself that this is probably about miscommunication and misunderstanding -- on both sides -- and not about disrespect of your expertise or rejection of what you have to offer.
posted by CtrlAltDelete at 9:20 AM on October 4, 2015 [13 favorites]
For instance! Some advisors want to have close, personal relationships with their students, and feel hurt and rejected when students don't want to share intimate details about their lives. Other advisors want to maintain very strict professional boundaries, and are dismayed by oversharing students. Or, some advisors expect their students to do everything that they tell them to do, and are frustrated when students reject their instructions. Other advisors expect that their students will solicit advice from multiple sources and make their own judgements, and think that students who rely on them too much are needy or can't stand on their own. Similarly, every student will want different things from their advisors.
It is also worth remembering that sometimes students have completely rational reasons for disregarding the advice of their advisors, even if they don't share those reasons. Some advisors, for instance, will disengage if a student is thinking about a non-academic career. Some advisors disrespect students who privilege other life activities or events over academic commitments. Some advisors give advice that is well-meaning but does not apply to their students given their gender, race, religious, or class background. (For example, a student might not organize a panel for a conference if their best friend is getting married that weekend, but they might not feel like they could tell you that. Or, advice about taking a strong negotiating position re: a job offer might not apply in the same way if the advisor is a man and the student is a woman. Or, a student might intend to apply for jobs in a different field, and so publishing in the advisor's preferred journals might not be in their best interest.)
Other people have had great suggestions about resources for helping and understanding this particular student, but I think that keeping all this in mind will also help to dial down some of the emotional content of your situation. You sound very frustrated and like you are taking his rejection of your advice personally, and it is worth reminding yourself that this is probably about miscommunication and misunderstanding -- on both sides -- and not about disrespect of your expertise or rejection of what you have to offer.
posted by CtrlAltDelete at 9:20 AM on October 4, 2015 [13 favorites]
In passing, the notion of being depressed because a wife's grandfather passed away two weeks ago seems a lame excuse
This is just an aside, but even though it might seem lame at first, we don't know what someone's death triggers for people. It could very well be triggering the memory of the death of someone who was closer or just trigger some existential crisis.
In any case, seems like the most you could do is talk to him about what the consequences would be and whether or not those consequences are acceptable to him.
posted by gt2 at 9:21 AM on October 4, 2015 [7 favorites]
This is just an aside, but even though it might seem lame at first, we don't know what someone's death triggers for people. It could very well be triggering the memory of the death of someone who was closer or just trigger some existential crisis.
In any case, seems like the most you could do is talk to him about what the consequences would be and whether or not those consequences are acceptable to him.
posted by gt2 at 9:21 AM on October 4, 2015 [7 favorites]
I've offered him opportunities that he passed up (for example: an all expense paid trip to an international conference to organize a panel)
He's told me he would like to have a career in academia. He wants to be a professor.
Which is why I don't understand why he doesn't listen to my advice or take up the opportunities I offer him.
Perhaps I can be of some help here… maybe none of these scenarios apply, but maybe they do.
1. Anxiety brain edition: “International conference? Do I have a passport? Do I need a passport? How do I apply for a visa? Do I have a suit? Do I have the money for any of that? Travel funds don’t cover suits. Dr. Milau thinks I can organize a panel are they HIGH? Who is going to cover my classes? Can I just cancel? Is getting coverage my responsibility?” And it’s entirely possible that you said “Stu, I have an awesome opportunity for you, we have travel funds for you to go to a conference, $country is amazing, this is going to be a great standout opportunity that is really going to help your CV. I know it’s overwhelming, but I’m here to help you out, starting with the travel forms, which have to be signed in triplicate by the Dean in blood and then stamped with a unicorn hoof, it’s a pain in the ass.” And if you did, then disregard this point. But if you didn’t - if any of that was in your head because you thought he should just know that you had his back on this stuff by now (or you thought he know by now how to dress for a conference and fill out the bloody travel forms), then this might be a part of it (especially if Stu is the first in his family to do the academia thing).
2: The life responsibilities edition. You mention a wife, you mention a dead grandfather - what was the timing like on all this? Is there any chance that Stu Dent thought that grandfather was going to pass away during the conference or other extras? Was he driving Grandpa to chemo or anything like that? Do they have kids or other heavy duty family responsibilities? Friday afternoon colloquiums are great - if you're not the one on carpool duty that week.
3. The money edition. Is Stu, like a lot graduate students, tight on funds and moonlighting? Is it possible that he’s been checked out because he’s tending bar or something and didn’t want to tell you and/or couldn’t miss work for extra opportunities?
4. Doesn’t want to do this anymore edition: he’s a grad student, it sounds like he’s funded, maybe he has figured out he doesn’t want to be a professor but either doesn’t know what his options for an outside of academia job are with a phd, or what non-professor academic options he has, or your department culture is such that he feels like he can’t share out of academic plans without risking his funding. You sound super supportive, but how is the rest of the department?
5. Honestly doesn’t understand that academia is different edition: You’ve talked until you’re blue in the face about how academia is structured differently than a lot of jobs, but if he’s got family members telling him otherwise, he’s not going to believe you. I am the only academic in my family other than a distant third cousin that’s a dean at a small religiously affiliated private college, and they just don’t get it sometimes, as much as they want to, that my working life in a lot of ways is different than theirs was (and I, vice versa, don’t know the ins and outs of what they do, but let’s all admit it, academia is weird). If his family is all telling him “just do well in school and you’ll get a job” (or worse, “When are you going to be done with school so you can get a real job?”) then he’s not going to hear you. Even with good mentoring and people who really care about it, it took me a long time to learn to play the game and that playing the game is important, in academia (and other networking heavy fields).
(Is it possible that he’s self medicating, of the legal or illegal variety?)
And this isn’t all of it, but I have got to grade some stuff, so. There is SO MUCH that could be going on that we just can’t know.
And you can’t either, if you guys are doing the ask v. guess thing. If you’ve asked him what’s up, then never mind, but if not (or even if you have, one more try, right?), can you grab him for a coffee or a beer and just say Hey, I’m not yelling at you, I just want to know so I can help you out, what’s going on with you, some smart folks gave me some suggestions, any chance it’s any of these? How do I help?
This is hard. Mentoring is hard work and emotional labor (I just restocked the tissues in my office for advising season, and I am not looking forward to it). Is there anyone who can help you share the load with this student? You say he came to you, but is there anyone else who can help you dual-mentor him and help with the travel forms and CVs and whatever else?
Hang in there. And thanks for giving a crap about your student.
posted by joycehealy at 9:27 AM on October 4, 2015 [16 favorites]
He's told me he would like to have a career in academia. He wants to be a professor.
Which is why I don't understand why he doesn't listen to my advice or take up the opportunities I offer him.
Perhaps I can be of some help here… maybe none of these scenarios apply, but maybe they do.
1. Anxiety brain edition: “International conference? Do I have a passport? Do I need a passport? How do I apply for a visa? Do I have a suit? Do I have the money for any of that? Travel funds don’t cover suits. Dr. Milau thinks I can organize a panel are they HIGH? Who is going to cover my classes? Can I just cancel? Is getting coverage my responsibility?” And it’s entirely possible that you said “Stu, I have an awesome opportunity for you, we have travel funds for you to go to a conference, $country is amazing, this is going to be a great standout opportunity that is really going to help your CV. I know it’s overwhelming, but I’m here to help you out, starting with the travel forms, which have to be signed in triplicate by the Dean in blood and then stamped with a unicorn hoof, it’s a pain in the ass.” And if you did, then disregard this point. But if you didn’t - if any of that was in your head because you thought he should just know that you had his back on this stuff by now (or you thought he know by now how to dress for a conference and fill out the bloody travel forms), then this might be a part of it (especially if Stu is the first in his family to do the academia thing).
2: The life responsibilities edition. You mention a wife, you mention a dead grandfather - what was the timing like on all this? Is there any chance that Stu Dent thought that grandfather was going to pass away during the conference or other extras? Was he driving Grandpa to chemo or anything like that? Do they have kids or other heavy duty family responsibilities? Friday afternoon colloquiums are great - if you're not the one on carpool duty that week.
3. The money edition. Is Stu, like a lot graduate students, tight on funds and moonlighting? Is it possible that he’s been checked out because he’s tending bar or something and didn’t want to tell you and/or couldn’t miss work for extra opportunities?
4. Doesn’t want to do this anymore edition: he’s a grad student, it sounds like he’s funded, maybe he has figured out he doesn’t want to be a professor but either doesn’t know what his options for an outside of academia job are with a phd, or what non-professor academic options he has, or your department culture is such that he feels like he can’t share out of academic plans without risking his funding. You sound super supportive, but how is the rest of the department?
5. Honestly doesn’t understand that academia is different edition: You’ve talked until you’re blue in the face about how academia is structured differently than a lot of jobs, but if he’s got family members telling him otherwise, he’s not going to believe you. I am the only academic in my family other than a distant third cousin that’s a dean at a small religiously affiliated private college, and they just don’t get it sometimes, as much as they want to, that my working life in a lot of ways is different than theirs was (and I, vice versa, don’t know the ins and outs of what they do, but let’s all admit it, academia is weird). If his family is all telling him “just do well in school and you’ll get a job” (or worse, “When are you going to be done with school so you can get a real job?”) then he’s not going to hear you. Even with good mentoring and people who really care about it, it took me a long time to learn to play the game and that playing the game is important, in academia (and other networking heavy fields).
(Is it possible that he’s self medicating, of the legal or illegal variety?)
And this isn’t all of it, but I have got to grade some stuff, so. There is SO MUCH that could be going on that we just can’t know.
And you can’t either, if you guys are doing the ask v. guess thing. If you’ve asked him what’s up, then never mind, but if not (or even if you have, one more try, right?), can you grab him for a coffee or a beer and just say Hey, I’m not yelling at you, I just want to know so I can help you out, what’s going on with you, some smart folks gave me some suggestions, any chance it’s any of these? How do I help?
This is hard. Mentoring is hard work and emotional labor (I just restocked the tissues in my office for advising season, and I am not looking forward to it). Is there anyone who can help you share the load with this student? You say he came to you, but is there anyone else who can help you dual-mentor him and help with the travel forms and CVs and whatever else?
Hang in there. And thanks for giving a crap about your student.
posted by joycehealy at 9:27 AM on October 4, 2015 [16 favorites]
I'm TT and about your 'age'. k8t and flourpot are giving you great advice here. Definitely involve the grad-studies chair and your own chair. Use your own resources.
Generally -- it will help him, and it will help you, to realize your boundaries here.
You are not "supposed to motivate him". That has to come from him. You can only set expectations, and help him develop a plan, but the motivation to execute that plan is on him. You need to make that clear to him, because it sounds a bit like he's being passive aggressive about who exactly is supposed to cure him, and you're internalizing it.
You cannot get him back on track. You can help him understand what that track is, in fine detail. You need to set limits (around deadlines). But only he can get himself back on that track.
You cannot make him take your advice seriously. You can offer it, but he will do with it as he may.
I'm very suspicious that he chose you for your empathy, and ... his wife's grandfather? Two weeks? Really? I have to say: it sounds more like he's finding every (very compelling, of course) reason possible, and this is only one in what is surely a succession of them. Two weeks, he hasn't tried very hard on his own before sounding the alarm.
It's very, very common for new faculty to get steamrolled, and very common that the first student is, well, a first pancake. Mine was, and it was because he very clearly tried to steamroll and for lack of a better term, usurp me in my own lab. My second grad student is in a similar spot to yours -- he's in the middle of a leave for personal reasons, and I've tried to walk exactly the line I'm describing to you, for my own sanity (the first one drove me nuts, obvs). I've been honest with him about that -- that while I can help him make a very specific and clear plan, and I'm happy to share my own experiences, the rest is up to him. Ask me in another six months, if I haven't already written my own Ask, about how this is going ....
Probably the very hardest thing for me to really learn, as new faculty, has been: don't expect them to be mini-yous.
posted by Dashy at 9:38 AM on October 4, 2015 [8 favorites]
Generally -- it will help him, and it will help you, to realize your boundaries here.
You are not "supposed to motivate him". That has to come from him. You can only set expectations, and help him develop a plan, but the motivation to execute that plan is on him. You need to make that clear to him, because it sounds a bit like he's being passive aggressive about who exactly is supposed to cure him, and you're internalizing it.
You cannot get him back on track. You can help him understand what that track is, in fine detail. You need to set limits (around deadlines). But only he can get himself back on that track.
You cannot make him take your advice seriously. You can offer it, but he will do with it as he may.
I'm very suspicious that he chose you for your empathy, and ... his wife's grandfather? Two weeks? Really? I have to say: it sounds more like he's finding every (very compelling, of course) reason possible, and this is only one in what is surely a succession of them. Two weeks, he hasn't tried very hard on his own before sounding the alarm.
It's very, very common for new faculty to get steamrolled, and very common that the first student is, well, a first pancake. Mine was, and it was because he very clearly tried to steamroll and for lack of a better term, usurp me in my own lab. My second grad student is in a similar spot to yours -- he's in the middle of a leave for personal reasons, and I've tried to walk exactly the line I'm describing to you, for my own sanity (the first one drove me nuts, obvs). I've been honest with him about that -- that while I can help him make a very specific and clear plan, and I'm happy to share my own experiences, the rest is up to him. Ask me in another six months, if I haven't already written my own Ask, about how this is going ....
Probably the very hardest thing for me to really learn, as new faculty, has been: don't expect them to be mini-yous.
posted by Dashy at 9:38 AM on October 4, 2015 [8 favorites]
I'm of the opinion that motivation is largely a myth the way most understand it. It's not a magical energy that arrives and makes work both easier and more fulfilling. If you wait for motivation to suddenly arrive by luck or magic words uttered by another, you'll wait forever. Motivation doesn't come to the passive, it arrives only after you've started to work on something in a disciplined and consistent manner. So, your student needs to start with a disciplined program of working on what he's stuck on every day. It doesn't need to be working all day long, but some dedicated work every day. Once he's been at it, motivation will start to arrive. Destroy the myth of how motivation works and you'll do him a huge favor. Motivation follows action, not the other way around.
posted by quince at 10:03 AM on October 4, 2015 [15 favorites]
posted by quince at 10:03 AM on October 4, 2015 [15 favorites]
While I live far away from my grandmother now, I am still extremely close to her and would need months to get over her death. My SO, who is in grad school as well, would come home to a crying mess every day, take care of me and the household and somehow try to keep on top of his studied. So I don't think it's necessarily an excuse, although we don't know the actual situation.
I am also someone who quit grad school over anxiety and depression despite the best (really, the smartest, funniest, most supportive) supervisor ever, so I can commiserate with this guy. Anxiety can make you self-sabotage and depression can make you appear lazy. Obviously, you're not his therapist, but maybe cut him some slack for now and ask him how he wants to proceed?
posted by LoonyLovegood at 10:13 AM on October 4, 2015 [3 favorites]
I am also someone who quit grad school over anxiety and depression despite the best (really, the smartest, funniest, most supportive) supervisor ever, so I can commiserate with this guy. Anxiety can make you self-sabotage and depression can make you appear lazy. Obviously, you're not his therapist, but maybe cut him some slack for now and ask him how he wants to proceed?
posted by LoonyLovegood at 10:13 AM on October 4, 2015 [3 favorites]
Do you think he has a positive probability of landing and keeping a TT job? It doesn't really sound like it from your posts. Nearly every failed PhD student I've known wishes they could have at least gotten out one year earlier. Just sayin'...
I agree with others that as an advisor you give the advice he does (or doesn't do) the work. Don't make the mistake of tying your own professional self worth to his performance.
posted by deadweightloss at 10:26 AM on October 4, 2015
I agree with others that as an advisor you give the advice he does (or doesn't do) the work. Don't make the mistake of tying your own professional self worth to his performance.
posted by deadweightloss at 10:26 AM on October 4, 2015
I want to clarify my advice about boundaries. Cutting slack and giving support etc. are all well and good, but the PhD students I feel bad about aren't the ones who didn't get lots of extra support and cheerleading from their advisor. The students I feel guilty about are the ones my colleagues and I bolstered and supported extra-much because we saw them as inherently talented and intelligent and didn't want them to flounder. It's rotten for these folks when 8 or 10 or 12 years have gone by, they have invested the prime era of their young adulthood and earning years trying to find their footing, and then they can't finish their dissertation or compete against the hungriest of their peers to get the few jobs that are out there. An academic career isn't the only thing to do in life, and getting a PhD isn't like getting a high school degree or a B.A. (And I do a lot of supporting for my undergrads in similar situations.) If the incredible solitary and anxious and competitive aspects of academia are not right for someone, that's fine; they should know early on.
posted by flourpot at 10:32 AM on October 4, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by flourpot at 10:32 AM on October 4, 2015 [6 favorites]
We need more graceful exits for students who aren't cutting it. Can he leave with an MA, transition to a research firm? Maybe working with him on alternative options would be helpful.
posted by k8t at 10:35 AM on October 4, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by k8t at 10:35 AM on October 4, 2015 [5 favorites]
Also for you - try to get on some committees. I know committee work is pretty thankless but you can still have rewarding interactions with students while not having to be their primary advisor. You learn a lot about the formal process (exams, defenses, paperwork) and informal stuff from both other faculty and how you're advising the students.
My second or third dissertation defense, I had some comments and another faculty member said, hey you didn't tell him that during his proposal defense so it isn't fair for you to ask him to do that now. I had no idea but she was right!
posted by k8t at 10:40 AM on October 4, 2015
My second or third dissertation defense, I had some comments and another faculty member said, hey you didn't tell him that during his proposal defense so it isn't fair for you to ask him to do that now. I had no idea but she was right!
posted by k8t at 10:40 AM on October 4, 2015
I'm TT with a bit more experience in Ph.D supervision, and am currently a DGS though new to the job. My current conclusion is that ultimately the advisor can't and shouldn't have the burden of solving the problem of the anxious, unmotivated Ph.D student themself, especially early career advisors. Well, there are probably plenty of ways to lower the motivation of a student, maybe avoid these. But increasing motivation? That's something they have to figure out themselves.
Instead, I recommend setting concrete, incremental, reasonable deadlines involving whatever the relevant sort of research project is, and do your best in a professional (not motivational) capacity to help them meet those deadlines -- provide feedback on writing (positive but also negative if needed), engage with their ideas, within limits work with them to find research topics that they are genuinely interested in, help them with relevant methods and protocol (experimental design, citation practice, etc). That is, provide a supportive framework in which, if they can find motivation, they will have attainable targets for that motivation. Note that professional advice is one thing, and concrete research deadlines or requirements are another, in terms of evaluation, though obviously the two will blend in some cases. If they consistently fail to meet those deadlines over an appropriate period of time, then consider more drastic actions -- and here your DGS can definitely help. For instance, your school probably has a probation system, which may sound like an alarmingly formal option, but it is an option that turns out to actually motivate many students, or makes them confront the fact that this isn't for them; the DGS will (or should) be aware of options like this. This kind of strategy allows you to systematically evaluate patterns of behavior, rather than particular instances (even as the final straw) -- e.g. in isolation it is not unreasonable for a death in the family, even if not immediate, to lead to some local disruption in deadlines. So slack on that one particular instance is reasonable. But after a year (or whatever) of regular documented deadlines that are consistently missed, with goals X, Y and Z not accomplished, you can confront the pattern rather than the individual cases.
Also, one thing I've learned recently from DGS meetings is that departments vary dramatically in the systems in place for doing department-wide evaluation of graduate students, with some humanities departments leaving whatever of this happens (sometimes nothing) to individual advisors without any input from anyone else in the department -- maybe half the department doesn't even know that the student exists. It sounds like your department must be on the far end of this, just as a guess. From this you won't necessarily realize that this sort of pattern is not too uncommon, and that most people who have advised students have encountered it in some form, so blame doesn't really attach to the advisor in most cases. Hopefully you have a senior mentor within your department who you can consult about this issue -- perhaps you are holding off because you are embarrassed or worried that you will get the blame. But this really shouldn't be a worry in a functional department.
posted by advil at 10:59 AM on October 4, 2015 [7 favorites]
Instead, I recommend setting concrete, incremental, reasonable deadlines involving whatever the relevant sort of research project is, and do your best in a professional (not motivational) capacity to help them meet those deadlines -- provide feedback on writing (positive but also negative if needed), engage with their ideas, within limits work with them to find research topics that they are genuinely interested in, help them with relevant methods and protocol (experimental design, citation practice, etc). That is, provide a supportive framework in which, if they can find motivation, they will have attainable targets for that motivation. Note that professional advice is one thing, and concrete research deadlines or requirements are another, in terms of evaluation, though obviously the two will blend in some cases. If they consistently fail to meet those deadlines over an appropriate period of time, then consider more drastic actions -- and here your DGS can definitely help. For instance, your school probably has a probation system, which may sound like an alarmingly formal option, but it is an option that turns out to actually motivate many students, or makes them confront the fact that this isn't for them; the DGS will (or should) be aware of options like this. This kind of strategy allows you to systematically evaluate patterns of behavior, rather than particular instances (even as the final straw) -- e.g. in isolation it is not unreasonable for a death in the family, even if not immediate, to lead to some local disruption in deadlines. So slack on that one particular instance is reasonable. But after a year (or whatever) of regular documented deadlines that are consistently missed, with goals X, Y and Z not accomplished, you can confront the pattern rather than the individual cases.
Also, one thing I've learned recently from DGS meetings is that departments vary dramatically in the systems in place for doing department-wide evaluation of graduate students, with some humanities departments leaving whatever of this happens (sometimes nothing) to individual advisors without any input from anyone else in the department -- maybe half the department doesn't even know that the student exists. It sounds like your department must be on the far end of this, just as a guess. From this you won't necessarily realize that this sort of pattern is not too uncommon, and that most people who have advised students have encountered it in some form, so blame doesn't really attach to the advisor in most cases. Hopefully you have a senior mentor within your department who you can consult about this issue -- perhaps you are holding off because you are embarrassed or worried that you will get the blame. But this really shouldn't be a worry in a functional department.
posted by advil at 10:59 AM on October 4, 2015 [7 favorites]
Two weeks after a death is no time at all, and knowing that the death was of a wife's grandparent doesn't tell you anything. His wife could be a mess. Her parents could be a mess. There could be massive family issues regarding handling an estate or finding a situation for a surviving grandparent. He might have been close to this grandparent himself. It's also possible he's using that as the more "reasonable" excuse when there is something going on that he doesn't want to tell you about. If he doesn't seem motivated, it's possible that he's depressed more than anxious - but believes that anxiety sounds better as a reason to give you than depression. He's seeing a therapist, though, so the psychological reason for his lack of motivation is not something you really need to deal with.
I dropped out of a PhD program due to depression. I didn't expect my advisor to be my therapist, but my advisor could have probably been the most helpful by giving me small assignments. I can see how going to a conference could seem overwhelming to someone who is having psychological problems.
posted by FencingGal at 11:13 AM on October 4, 2015 [12 favorites]
I dropped out of a PhD program due to depression. I didn't expect my advisor to be my therapist, but my advisor could have probably been the most helpful by giving me small assignments. I can see how going to a conference could seem overwhelming to someone who is having psychological problems.
posted by FencingGal at 11:13 AM on October 4, 2015 [12 favorites]
I just got my PhD, and while I loved my advisor, advising relationships are complex and I've certainly had plenty of opportunities to reflect on how I would do differently. I also know multiple people who tried to complete a PhD and were plenty smart and motivated but paralyzed by anxiety and ultimately unable to proceed.
I think you need to offer your student some scaffolding - give him a little more practical help than you think you should have to, for now. Suggest that he read xyz papers and write a summary for you. Ask to see a full presentation of his results so far (if he's experimenting - my experience was in the hard sciences) at the end of next week, tell him you expect him to write an abstract for xyz conference by the end of the week, etc. Give him something useful (either to you or to him) to sink his teeth into that's more manageable than "complete research and write dissertation". If this is all ultra-obvious, I apologize.
You also need to be very clear about your expectations. I think it would help to say something along the lines of "if you're not doing well enough, you will hear from me", and then follow through by saying things like "I expected you to have done this already, please come meet with me to discuss why it was not possible for you to do so". I can think of all sorts of reasons why he finds his work unapproachable, and many of them are not really your responsibility to fix (e.g. he feels too stupid to succeed and therefore can't get started) but some of them might be legitimately in your wheelhouse. For example, maybe he just needs to talk with somebody who knows his field and get a little more information about techniques, luminaries in the field, ask dumb questions he thinks he should already know the answer to and therefore won't ask of you, etc.
Almost every PhD student I've ever known (including me) has cried in their advisor's office at least once. The advising relationship really isn't totally professional, since getting a PhD involves personal choices, personal interpretations, legitimate differences of opinion, and so on. It isn't like being a regular boss, where you can dictate EVERYTHING your subordinate does, and they can suck it up and hate you if they don't agree. It's NOT A PhD if somebody is literally controlling your every move, and the "it must be YOUR idea and it must be NEW" aspect, mixed with lab structure and the modern funding environment, and so on, makes the relationship really complex. (Plus senior PhD students are usually way more knowledgeable about their particular field than their advisor, but the advisor has much greater broad experience. Another tricky thing to navigate.) I think it's obvious that you know this, but I think it's worthwhile to talk about it because the idea that advisors and PhD students can be "simply professional" is kind of ridiculous given the nature of the two jobs.
Anyway, that still doesn't mean you have to be a counselor, and it doesn't mean you have to have endless patience and sympathy for a student who can't get anything done, either due to lack of motivation or anxiety. You don't have to figure out his problems. But "motivating him harder" isn't really going to work. I would listen to his concerns empathetically, say that sounds terribly tough, and then get straight into the kind of help you might be able to offer. Postdoc in neighboring lab who knows his field and can advise? Lecture series he should attend to learn material better? Help planning schedule of work? Better structure for check-ins and weekly meetings to keep on track?
posted by Cygnet at 11:24 AM on October 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
I think you need to offer your student some scaffolding - give him a little more practical help than you think you should have to, for now. Suggest that he read xyz papers and write a summary for you. Ask to see a full presentation of his results so far (if he's experimenting - my experience was in the hard sciences) at the end of next week, tell him you expect him to write an abstract for xyz conference by the end of the week, etc. Give him something useful (either to you or to him) to sink his teeth into that's more manageable than "complete research and write dissertation". If this is all ultra-obvious, I apologize.
You also need to be very clear about your expectations. I think it would help to say something along the lines of "if you're not doing well enough, you will hear from me", and then follow through by saying things like "I expected you to have done this already, please come meet with me to discuss why it was not possible for you to do so". I can think of all sorts of reasons why he finds his work unapproachable, and many of them are not really your responsibility to fix (e.g. he feels too stupid to succeed and therefore can't get started) but some of them might be legitimately in your wheelhouse. For example, maybe he just needs to talk with somebody who knows his field and get a little more information about techniques, luminaries in the field, ask dumb questions he thinks he should already know the answer to and therefore won't ask of you, etc.
Almost every PhD student I've ever known (including me) has cried in their advisor's office at least once. The advising relationship really isn't totally professional, since getting a PhD involves personal choices, personal interpretations, legitimate differences of opinion, and so on. It isn't like being a regular boss, where you can dictate EVERYTHING your subordinate does, and they can suck it up and hate you if they don't agree. It's NOT A PhD if somebody is literally controlling your every move, and the "it must be YOUR idea and it must be NEW" aspect, mixed with lab structure and the modern funding environment, and so on, makes the relationship really complex. (Plus senior PhD students are usually way more knowledgeable about their particular field than their advisor, but the advisor has much greater broad experience. Another tricky thing to navigate.) I think it's obvious that you know this, but I think it's worthwhile to talk about it because the idea that advisors and PhD students can be "simply professional" is kind of ridiculous given the nature of the two jobs.
Anyway, that still doesn't mean you have to be a counselor, and it doesn't mean you have to have endless patience and sympathy for a student who can't get anything done, either due to lack of motivation or anxiety. You don't have to figure out his problems. But "motivating him harder" isn't really going to work. I would listen to his concerns empathetically, say that sounds terribly tough, and then get straight into the kind of help you might be able to offer. Postdoc in neighboring lab who knows his field and can advise? Lecture series he should attend to learn material better? Help planning schedule of work? Better structure for check-ins and weekly meetings to keep on track?
posted by Cygnet at 11:24 AM on October 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
From the other end of it..
I am an ABD PhD student. I fell into a nasty depression about 6 months into my first year, the "can barely get out of bed kind". I ended up on academic probation, and I had NEVER struggled with grades before. My adviser was always professionally there for me when I went to him, but largely left me alone to find my own way. It was frustrating at times since we would go months without talking but the truth is that had he pushed me like you're pushing your student, I would have been forced out by all the pressure instead of having time to recover and recuperate.
I think the kindest thing you can do here is let him know that you'll be happy to help with anything he needs and then take two giant steps back and give him time to figure out on his own what path he needs to take moving forward. It took me two years to get it together enough to continue on my progress, and it still isn't perfect. But I'm moving forward again and I expect to graduate, which is something that I thought would not be possible at all two years ago.
posted by zug at 11:26 AM on October 4, 2015 [9 favorites]
I am an ABD PhD student. I fell into a nasty depression about 6 months into my first year, the "can barely get out of bed kind". I ended up on academic probation, and I had NEVER struggled with grades before. My adviser was always professionally there for me when I went to him, but largely left me alone to find my own way. It was frustrating at times since we would go months without talking but the truth is that had he pushed me like you're pushing your student, I would have been forced out by all the pressure instead of having time to recover and recuperate.
I think the kindest thing you can do here is let him know that you'll be happy to help with anything he needs and then take two giant steps back and give him time to figure out on his own what path he needs to take moving forward. It took me two years to get it together enough to continue on my progress, and it still isn't perfect. But I'm moving forward again and I expect to graduate, which is something that I thought would not be possible at all two years ago.
posted by zug at 11:26 AM on October 4, 2015 [9 favorites]
Oh, and I think that if your student consistently can't live up to your expectations (which you will have made clear), suggest that he take a semester off and rejoin when he's recuperated.
posted by Cygnet at 11:28 AM on October 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Cygnet at 11:28 AM on October 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
He's told me he would like to have a career in academia. He wants to be a professor.As you're probably aware, there can be pressure to represent yourself this way as a graduate student, even when it's not true.
posted by kickingtheground at 11:57 AM on October 4, 2015 [7 favorites]
As you're probably aware, there can be pressure to represent yourself this way as a graduate student, even when it's not true.
QFT. In fact, I was explicitly rejected by two graduate programs for daring to admit that I didn't necessarily want to stay in academia. And at least 3 professors in my actual program freaked out when I told them I didn't want to go tenure track - saying "oh, no, don't say that, it's not so bad as it seems", etc.
posted by Cygnet at 12:01 PM on October 4, 2015 [4 favorites]
QFT. In fact, I was explicitly rejected by two graduate programs for daring to admit that I didn't necessarily want to stay in academia. And at least 3 professors in my actual program freaked out when I told them I didn't want to go tenure track - saying "oh, no, don't say that, it's not so bad as it seems", etc.
posted by Cygnet at 12:01 PM on October 4, 2015 [4 favorites]
There's much more going on here than I can be at all helpful with, but in case procrastination (vs. motivation, strictly speaking) is part of it, just want to throw out there that The Now Habit is (I think) saving this anxious undergrad's bacon, and might be worth recommending to your student (and having a flip through yourself, for a better sense of that problem [if it applies] and some ways of addressing it).
posted by cotton dress sock at 2:00 PM on October 4, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by cotton dress sock at 2:00 PM on October 4, 2015 [4 favorites]
As someone who is not an academic, who decided not to go to grad school, who volunteers with my alma matter, and who has ended up advising people who have either decided to exit grad school earlier than originally planned, or have decided to leave academia at some point after successfully defending their dissertation, I have some opinions.
1. Far too many people go to graduate school without much understanding of their other options.
2. Far too many people go to graduate school without much understanding of their options in academia after defending their dissertation.
3. More people in the midst of their PhD programs expect to have careers as professors than can possibly do so.
4. Faculty have had at least a decade, if not more, where it has been plainly obvious that they are marching grad students off a cliff.
5. It is a great moral failing of faculty that so many of them think that their responsibility to their grad students somehow ends if those students leave academia. If they don't actually think that, then it is appalling that they are so bad at it. They'd do well just to introduce their next student to leave academia to their last student to leave academia.
So, I will suggest that asking how to motivate this person along the road through graduate school and to becoming a professor themselves is the wrong question. A better question is how to help them understand whether or not grad school is the right place for them now, or ever.
One way to do that is to help them understand other options open to them. In helping them, you may learn things that will help you help other, more motivated students, or even yourself.
posted by Good Brain at 11:30 PM on October 4, 2015 [4 favorites]
1. Far too many people go to graduate school without much understanding of their other options.
2. Far too many people go to graduate school without much understanding of their options in academia after defending their dissertation.
3. More people in the midst of their PhD programs expect to have careers as professors than can possibly do so.
4. Faculty have had at least a decade, if not more, where it has been plainly obvious that they are marching grad students off a cliff.
5. It is a great moral failing of faculty that so many of them think that their responsibility to their grad students somehow ends if those students leave academia. If they don't actually think that, then it is appalling that they are so bad at it. They'd do well just to introduce their next student to leave academia to their last student to leave academia.
So, I will suggest that asking how to motivate this person along the road through graduate school and to becoming a professor themselves is the wrong question. A better question is how to help them understand whether or not grad school is the right place for them now, or ever.
One way to do that is to help them understand other options open to them. In helping them, you may learn things that will help you help other, more motivated students, or even yourself.
posted by Good Brain at 11:30 PM on October 4, 2015 [4 favorites]
Something that concerns me but I haven't seen mentioned by anyone else is your reputation as "empathetic". This is, on the surface, a positive characteristic. However, I worry that it is being used in your case as code for "push over". In the future, I would focus on results and meeting expectations as a baseline, so that you have the option to back off and be empathetic when it really matters. Especially as a young (female?) faculty member, you're going to get the tenured guys dumping their unwanted stuff on you. Developing a bit of a reputation as a hard ass who's fair will help prevent being shunted into the "mom" role instead of the "competent professor" position.
As for the student you have, I think you should take a two pronged approach. First, offer to work with your departmental services for students with disabilities as outlined by posters above. But you should also maintain expectations for your student. Grad school is a full time job and he should be either getting 40 hours of work done a week or be out on leave (or officially modified schedule reduction). What would be the bare minimum from a tech right out of undergrad? Expect at least that much. The suggestion of weekly meeting with defined goals is a great one, because that is a manageable amount of time to get a small goal accomplished without resorting to micromanagement.
As someone fresh out of a PhD program, you're not doing your student any good letting him waste his life drowning in an environment that is probably the most anxiety producing path.
posted by fermezporte at 4:30 AM on October 5, 2015 [3 favorites]
As for the student you have, I think you should take a two pronged approach. First, offer to work with your departmental services for students with disabilities as outlined by posters above. But you should also maintain expectations for your student. Grad school is a full time job and he should be either getting 40 hours of work done a week or be out on leave (or officially modified schedule reduction). What would be the bare minimum from a tech right out of undergrad? Expect at least that much. The suggestion of weekly meeting with defined goals is a great one, because that is a manageable amount of time to get a small goal accomplished without resorting to micromanagement.
As someone fresh out of a PhD program, you're not doing your student any good letting him waste his life drowning in an environment that is probably the most anxiety producing path.
posted by fermezporte at 4:30 AM on October 5, 2015 [3 favorites]
Also an ABD PhD student, here to second a lot of what zug said. I have had mental health problems as a graduate student. At my worst point, if I had been pressured constantly, I 100% would have left the program feeling like a failure - and academia is genuinely where I want to be! I needed time and space to work with my doctor and find the best way to address my mental health. I am grateful that I got that time, and I'm on track to graduate.
Check in with the graduate program director to see what the usual protocol is in this situation in your department, but if your student is anything like me, the most helpful thing to do would be to take a couple steps back for a bit while your student gets back on his feet. I was not trying to take advantage of my advisor during this time, just trying to keep my head above water.
It is possible, as many people have suggested above, that academia is not right for your student. However, it is also possible that it is not a question of "cutting it" in academia, but rather needing the time to find a workable plan to treat his mental health. I say this recognizing that the student is already in therapy, has already had a leave of absence, and that you cannot wait indefinitely. But if there is still time to wait, he may benefit most from some space.
posted by pemberkins at 6:11 AM on October 5, 2015 [3 favorites]
Check in with the graduate program director to see what the usual protocol is in this situation in your department, but if your student is anything like me, the most helpful thing to do would be to take a couple steps back for a bit while your student gets back on his feet. I was not trying to take advantage of my advisor during this time, just trying to keep my head above water.
It is possible, as many people have suggested above, that academia is not right for your student. However, it is also possible that it is not a question of "cutting it" in academia, but rather needing the time to find a workable plan to treat his mental health. I say this recognizing that the student is already in therapy, has already had a leave of absence, and that you cannot wait indefinitely. But if there is still time to wait, he may benefit most from some space.
posted by pemberkins at 6:11 AM on October 5, 2015 [3 favorites]
I have a MSc and PhD in two different molecular bioscience fields and have known a wide spectrum of students.
Your student sounds like the type where it's kinder now to show them the door than to let them keep hanging on only to face unexpected reality later. They do not sound like that they have the temperment to pursue a TT career nor compete against their peers in pursuit of that goal. Have they mentioned - at all - about plans on how to secure a high-profile postdoc? Does your student know any postdocs and how (figuratively) hungry they have to be... in order to not be (literally) hungry?
That they're not taking your advice seriously sounds like they are not operating within a reality-based framework. andrewcooke upthread mentioned "failing out with a masters." This is probably the kindest thing that you can suggest; they will be more employable with a MSc than a PhD and the requirements for a MSc are much less onerous than that of a PhD (see later in this comment, though).
That said, it sounds like the support that would most likely help them is not from you, but from his peers who are encountering the same kinds of pressure and disillusionment that they are experiencing. Are there any graduate student support groups that he could join?
None of my peers who took time off, either officially or after an unofficial AWOL, "recovered" enough to continue on successfully with an academic career. Many, though, were able to get their degrees - mostly because the school wanted them out and not a dropout statistic. Sad but true, many PhD holders who received their degrees in the last decade really don't deserve the degree. This phenomenon might extend back even further.
Passing up on a fantastic opportunity (paid trip to organize a panel) to network and attract the notice of heads of labs for potential high profile postdocs and "professional exhaustion" are definitely red flags that no matter what you do, they'll likely not find success in an academic career.
I understand that this is your first student (I was also my MSc supervisor's first grad student) but it sounds like you landed yourself a dud. Best advice - fail out with the MSc and get a decent but not terribly demanding job.
posted by porpoise at 2:06 PM on October 5, 2015 [5 favorites]
Your student sounds like the type where it's kinder now to show them the door than to let them keep hanging on only to face unexpected reality later. They do not sound like that they have the temperment to pursue a TT career nor compete against their peers in pursuit of that goal. Have they mentioned - at all - about plans on how to secure a high-profile postdoc? Does your student know any postdocs and how (figuratively) hungry they have to be... in order to not be (literally) hungry?
That they're not taking your advice seriously sounds like they are not operating within a reality-based framework. andrewcooke upthread mentioned "failing out with a masters." This is probably the kindest thing that you can suggest; they will be more employable with a MSc than a PhD and the requirements for a MSc are much less onerous than that of a PhD (see later in this comment, though).
That said, it sounds like the support that would most likely help them is not from you, but from his peers who are encountering the same kinds of pressure and disillusionment that they are experiencing. Are there any graduate student support groups that he could join?
None of my peers who took time off, either officially or after an unofficial AWOL, "recovered" enough to continue on successfully with an academic career. Many, though, were able to get their degrees - mostly because the school wanted them out and not a dropout statistic. Sad but true, many PhD holders who received their degrees in the last decade really don't deserve the degree. This phenomenon might extend back even further.
Passing up on a fantastic opportunity (paid trip to organize a panel) to network and attract the notice of heads of labs for potential high profile postdocs and "professional exhaustion" are definitely red flags that no matter what you do, they'll likely not find success in an academic career.
I understand that this is your first student (I was also my MSc supervisor's first grad student) but it sounds like you landed yourself a dud. Best advice - fail out with the MSc and get a decent but not terribly demanding job.
posted by porpoise at 2:06 PM on October 5, 2015 [5 favorites]
Late answer, but might be of help.
I have worked with several graduate students or career academics for mental health treatment. As you might expect, some improve quickly with treatment and some do not. In my experience, those who are looking for motivation to do the work rather than building skills to get relief from the distractions of a ruminative or depressed mind have a harder time improving. If you are advising someone who is not motivated, I would be curious in exploring the specifics of why they want to do this and what they hope to accomplish. I have also found that it can help to explicitly state that it is okay to quit, although some people will continue to feel trapped by sunk costs or the expectations of others and will not let themselves explore this option no matter how much it seems clear to others that they should at least consider it. At least he is in treatment, which is good. (Disclaimer: this is not medical advice, etc).
posted by artdesk at 8:00 AM on October 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
I have worked with several graduate students or career academics for mental health treatment. As you might expect, some improve quickly with treatment and some do not. In my experience, those who are looking for motivation to do the work rather than building skills to get relief from the distractions of a ruminative or depressed mind have a harder time improving. If you are advising someone who is not motivated, I would be curious in exploring the specifics of why they want to do this and what they hope to accomplish. I have also found that it can help to explicitly state that it is okay to quit, although some people will continue to feel trapped by sunk costs or the expectations of others and will not let themselves explore this option no matter how much it seems clear to others that they should at least consider it. At least he is in treatment, which is good. (Disclaimer: this is not medical advice, etc).
posted by artdesk at 8:00 AM on October 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
Talk to some senior colleagues just in case their read on this situation is different. But otherwise stop investing your precious resources into this person and focus on other students who are more eager.
Do what you need to do for this one... Advise him, offer up coauthoring opportunities I'd you feel that he will be up to the task but otherwise don't waste your energy.
Anxiety is real but sadly this life isn't well suited for it. Help him move on.
posted by k8t at 7:43 AM on October 4, 2015 [21 favorites]