Transitioning to a new home during divorce.
August 27, 2015 2:57 PM Subscribe
My partner and I are breaking up after 20 years. Neither of us trusts the other’s judgement and dividing our only asset has become hugely problematic. We purchased our home 18 years ago as a fixer-upper in what has since become a very desirable location, so there’s a large amount of equity in it. I never gave proper thought about how we’d move on from it, meaning this is one of those “explain it to me like I’m five” inquiries.
I’d like to have sensible questions to ask at our bank meeting tomorrow. We have a meeting next week with a therapist and have agreed to some kind of professional mediation in the future.
The thing is… my partner demands that we extend our joint mortgage-backed line of credit to allow her to purchase (outright) a smaller place in the countryside. For 10 years, she’s only done part-time work for my home business, so she won’t have any income going forward (except for support payments). I doubt she could get bridge financing under her own name.
I want to avoid being drawn deeper into debt with her.
My psychiatrist, lawyer (in a 1 hour consult), and my best friend have all strenuously advised against going along with my partner’s plan because she has unhealthy control issues that played a major part in the breakup.
My stated desire is to sell the house, clear the substantial credit line/credit card debts and give her two thirds of the remainder. This would leave her enough cash to purchase a cheaper house (outright) and still have at least 100k left over.
We still share strong feelings but an untrusting attitude towards each other (for reasons I’m not comfortable going into here, even anonymously). I'm miserable and emotionally burnt out.
The lawyer gave me a ballpark figure on what I'd be expected to pay in support, etc. but his advice hinges on dividing the assets. Her need to own another home before selling the current one seems rooted in family history and is something she can’t be easily reasoned out of. The idea of moving into an apartment in the interim is off the table. She'll react badly if I refuse to go along with her plan but I really don’t want to retain a lawyer and push her to sell.
Are there any ways I can get my wife financed without exposing myself to further debt and obligation? Is it realistic to think a lawyer could structure a contract between my wife and I that would allow us to safely extend the credit line and organize a purchase? Am I kidding myself?
We're in Ontario.
My psychiatrist, lawyer (in a 1 hour consult), and my best friend have all strenuously advised against going along with my partner’s plan because she has unhealthy control issues that played a major part in the breakup.
My stated desire is to sell the house, clear the substantial credit line/credit card debts and give her two thirds of the remainder. This would leave her enough cash to purchase a cheaper house (outright) and still have at least 100k left over.
We still share strong feelings but an untrusting attitude towards each other (for reasons I’m not comfortable going into here, even anonymously). I'm miserable and emotionally burnt out.
The lawyer gave me a ballpark figure on what I'd be expected to pay in support, etc. but his advice hinges on dividing the assets. Her need to own another home before selling the current one seems rooted in family history and is something she can’t be easily reasoned out of. The idea of moving into an apartment in the interim is off the table. She'll react badly if I refuse to go along with her plan but I really don’t want to retain a lawyer and push her to sell.
Are there any ways I can get my wife financed without exposing myself to further debt and obligation? Is it realistic to think a lawyer could structure a contract between my wife and I that would allow us to safely extend the credit line and organize a purchase? Am I kidding myself?
We're in Ontario.
Get your own lawyer! It sounds like she's getting more than half the shared stuff (house, assets, etc.) plus spousal support payments. You keep saying "we" and "us" so I don't think you realize that she's looking out for herself, not fairness. Don't let her destroy you financially just because "she'll react badly".
posted by sninctown at 3:26 PM on August 27, 2015 [19 favorites]
posted by sninctown at 3:26 PM on August 27, 2015 [19 favorites]
It seems like the easy way to "get your wife financed" would be to put the house on the market, then divide up the proceeds in the context of a divorce settlement with the help of at least one competent lawyer (yours). You are supposed to be separating your assets and interests, not further entangling them.
I don't really understand why she needs to buy a new house before this one sells? Like, who is living in your (formerly) shared home right now? Is there a reason she can't live there until it sells, then purchase and move to her new home?
posted by mskyle at 3:27 PM on August 27, 2015 [6 favorites]
I don't really understand why she needs to buy a new house before this one sells? Like, who is living in your (formerly) shared home right now? Is there a reason she can't live there until it sells, then purchase and move to her new home?
posted by mskyle at 3:27 PM on August 27, 2015 [6 favorites]
You are supposed to be separating your assets and interests, not further entangling them.
This. With respect, to both of you, the reason you both get lawyers is because at this point it does not matter what she wants or what you want because you are working at cross purposes. What matters is what you are (both) legally obligated to do and what you can agree on. A legal professional will help you figure that part out. If you guys are in a situation where you do not trust each other, one more financial entanglement is a terrible idea. Unless for some reason you feel like a bad guy here (for reasons which you won't go into, but I'm talking like you had children with another woman while you were still married to your wife bad) I wouldn't entertain this notion for a second.
posted by jessamyn at 3:37 PM on August 27, 2015 [33 favorites]
This. With respect, to both of you, the reason you both get lawyers is because at this point it does not matter what she wants or what you want because you are working at cross purposes. What matters is what you are (both) legally obligated to do and what you can agree on. A legal professional will help you figure that part out. If you guys are in a situation where you do not trust each other, one more financial entanglement is a terrible idea. Unless for some reason you feel like a bad guy here (for reasons which you won't go into, but I'm talking like you had children with another woman while you were still married to your wife bad) I wouldn't entertain this notion for a second.
posted by jessamyn at 3:37 PM on August 27, 2015 [33 favorites]
"Are there any ways I can get my wife financed without exposing myself to further debt and obligation?"
You are asking the wrong question! Do not get her financed, get yourself divorced. Get your own lawyer. who only works for you. and insist on selling the house, split the proceeds in an equitable fashion taking into consideration the rest of your joint financial profile, including support. This is also what I would imagine a professional mediator would steer you towards. There's no need to extend any kind of credit here. If she wants to use her share of the money to buy another property outright that is her choice, but it should happen after the divorce/separation and it should not involve you. Being involved in any kind of line of credit with her will continue to entangle the two of you and will give her ways to control your finances/life that are not appropriate after this kind of separation.
IAMAL, IANYL etc.
posted by zdravo at 3:39 PM on August 27, 2015 [15 favorites]
You are asking the wrong question! Do not get her financed, get yourself divorced. Get your own lawyer. who only works for you. and insist on selling the house, split the proceeds in an equitable fashion taking into consideration the rest of your joint financial profile, including support. This is also what I would imagine a professional mediator would steer you towards. There's no need to extend any kind of credit here. If she wants to use her share of the money to buy another property outright that is her choice, but it should happen after the divorce/separation and it should not involve you. Being involved in any kind of line of credit with her will continue to entangle the two of you and will give her ways to control your finances/life that are not appropriate after this kind of separation.
IAMAL, IANYL etc.
posted by zdravo at 3:39 PM on August 27, 2015 [15 favorites]
Your partner can demand, and you can counter-demand, and the mediator's job is to help you arrive at a mutually agreeable outcome.
On the face of it, your partner's demands do not sound reasonable, and sound like a bad deal for you. You may want to ensure she has some security, which is fine, but you also need to be looking out for number one at this point. Will getting your own lawyer serve your own interests better than agreeing to her scheme? A lawyer could probably answer that.
It sounds like for your own mental health, you need to be disentangled.
Here's an option that's so crazy it just might work. Sell your house now, while you're still married. Purchase and move into your future ex's future home, and put it in her name. When the divorce goes through, you walk away. I realize this would be incredibly stressful, but you would get it over with faster.
posted by adamrice at 3:41 PM on August 27, 2015 [7 favorites]
On the face of it, your partner's demands do not sound reasonable, and sound like a bad deal for you. You may want to ensure she has some security, which is fine, but you also need to be looking out for number one at this point. Will getting your own lawyer serve your own interests better than agreeing to her scheme? A lawyer could probably answer that.
It sounds like for your own mental health, you need to be disentangled.
Here's an option that's so crazy it just might work. Sell your house now, while you're still married. Purchase and move into your future ex's future home, and put it in her name. When the divorce goes through, you walk away. I realize this would be incredibly stressful, but you would get it over with faster.
posted by adamrice at 3:41 PM on August 27, 2015 [7 favorites]
Do not co-sign for anything financial for your spouse. Also, don't be guilt-tripped, manipulated, emotionally abused, or anything else, into this or any other area that is in your wife's interests rather than your own.
Also, who is on the mortgage? - Both of you? Who is on the title? - Both of you? They are different things. Both need to be split. Retain and ask a divorce lawyer.
When you sell the house, you need to keep a record of sale costs (realtor costs, taxes, etc.) as these can be factored into to the final total that you actually divide (i.e. you need to deduct them before you make the 2/3:1/3 split ). Sometimes a court will have a set %age rate for this. Ask a divorce lawyer.
Ask an accountant (?) to see if you will be liable for any property gains tax as well. That also needs to be deducted before any final division takes place.
There needs to be a very definite financial line between you and your spouse. It sounds like she may (IMHO) have been manipulating you for a while, and maybe worried about losing this leverage. As others have said, she is getting a good deal out of this as it is. Maybe start some sessions with a therapist.
So, 1: Sell the house, deduct your costs, and split the remainder with your wife, however you want. A court would order a 50/50 split anyway.
2: I would recommend retaining a divorce lawyer, at least consulting with an accountant, and also looking into getting a therapist to see why you may feel crappy about not doing (1). Because doing (1) is not a crappy thing, it is a very fair thing.
posted by carter at 3:53 PM on August 27, 2015 [4 favorites]
Also, who is on the mortgage? - Both of you? Who is on the title? - Both of you? They are different things. Both need to be split. Retain and ask a divorce lawyer.
When you sell the house, you need to keep a record of sale costs (realtor costs, taxes, etc.) as these can be factored into to the final total that you actually divide (i.e. you need to deduct them before you make the 2/3:1/3 split ). Sometimes a court will have a set %age rate for this. Ask a divorce lawyer.
Ask an accountant (?) to see if you will be liable for any property gains tax as well. That also needs to be deducted before any final division takes place.
There needs to be a very definite financial line between you and your spouse. It sounds like she may (IMHO) have been manipulating you for a while, and maybe worried about losing this leverage. As others have said, she is getting a good deal out of this as it is. Maybe start some sessions with a therapist.
So, 1: Sell the house, deduct your costs, and split the remainder with your wife, however you want. A court would order a 50/50 split anyway.
2: I would recommend retaining a divorce lawyer, at least consulting with an accountant, and also looking into getting a therapist to see why you may feel crappy about not doing (1). Because doing (1) is not a crappy thing, it is a very fair thing.
posted by carter at 3:53 PM on August 27, 2015 [4 favorites]
Getting a divorce is a final separation of the legal ties that bind. If you do not have minor children, split what is there, and move on. Her needs, her this, her that, her wants, future desires are not your realm, any more. The reason for divorce is not relevant to the fact of what divorce is. No guilt, anger, regret in play for the legalities. Especially no demands on what comes after. The worry is some huge secret debt, you had better get credit reports, audit everything, before you have no legal ties to her.
posted by Oyéah at 4:24 PM on August 27, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by Oyéah at 4:24 PM on August 27, 2015 [5 favorites]
Are there any ways I can get my wife financed without exposing myself to further debt and obligation? Is it realistic to think a lawyer could structure a contract between my wife and I that would allow us to safely extend the credit line and organize a purchase? Am I kidding myself?
No, no, and yes.
You each need your own lawyer. This is the best idea even in divorces where both people generally trust each other and no one has unhealthy control issues. You've stated this isn't the case for you and your wife, so: get your own lawyer.
She'll react badly if I refuse to go along with her plan but I really don’t want to retain a lawyer and push her to sell.
The fact that she'll react badly unless you do exactly what she wants is another clue that you each need your own lawyer. It's best and most fair, for both of you actually.
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 4:28 PM on August 27, 2015 [16 favorites]
No, no, and yes.
You each need your own lawyer. This is the best idea even in divorces where both people generally trust each other and no one has unhealthy control issues. You've stated this isn't the case for you and your wife, so: get your own lawyer.
She'll react badly if I refuse to go along with her plan but I really don’t want to retain a lawyer and push her to sell.
The fact that she'll react badly unless you do exactly what she wants is another clue that you each need your own lawyer. It's best and most fair, for both of you actually.
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 4:28 PM on August 27, 2015 [16 favorites]
I fail to see how doubling down on an existing joint mortgage to pull out cash, then buying her a home (held in her name only) with that cash deepens your financial ties. It opens you up to some serious hassle and risk, but assuming that risk is low given the short timetable of this transaction, and assuming that agreeing to this delay allows you to avoid significant legal fees, it might or might not be worth it.
There are three problems with your plan: the extra time it will take, extra transaction costs, and that you don't necessarily know what your home will sell for, so some surprises (positive or negative) could occur. To expand:
Extra hassle: it become four steps (1. refinance, 2. she buys a place and moves, 3. sell, and 4. disburse proceeds) instead of three, or really two for you (1. sell, 2. disburse proceeds, 3. she buys a place). That extra hassle extends your interaction with her by however long the refinance and her home purchase and move take. Would that delay cause you to miss some ideal market window (e.g., people moving before the school year starts)? A realtor could tell you. Would that delay make you lose your mind? (Quite possibly.) Could the delay factor be included in the negotiation? ("If She is unable to purchase a home within 60 days, She agrees to move into an apartment.") Also, I'd consider the impact of changing the order of these steps on her behavior. (Would being in her new place make her more likely to hold up the sale, or would the fact that she already moved make her more likely to go along with a reasonable offer?)
Transaction costs: That refinance / pulling-out-cash step might add transaction costs.
Risk: You'll need to be really conservative about how much cash to pull out for the house purchase to avoid ending up stuck underwater together, if market conditions changed significantly. Then if the house sells for more or less than expected, she might end up with more or less cash than expected. The worst kind of surprise would be a housing market crash that changed the home's value or even a natural disaster that destroyed the home, in which cases you'd be jointly carrying that mortgage until that problem could be addressed (e.g., until the home insurance money allowed you to rebuild and sell). It's up to you to consider how likely you believe that is. If I had to compare a 95% chance of paying an attorney $20k vs. the X% chance of the home's value changing significantly, I'd probably lean toward not paying the lawyer IF I thought I could avoid that otherwise.
One advantage of her plan is that she'd be out if the house during the sale, so showings could be more flexible and you could repaint or stage it to get a higher price.
tl;dr -- it depends on how much you value some time, hassle, and risk vs. how much you want to (and how likely you think you'll be able to) avoid lawyer fees.
posted by salvia at 4:47 PM on August 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
There are three problems with your plan: the extra time it will take, extra transaction costs, and that you don't necessarily know what your home will sell for, so some surprises (positive or negative) could occur. To expand:
Extra hassle: it become four steps (1. refinance, 2. she buys a place and moves, 3. sell, and 4. disburse proceeds) instead of three, or really two for you (1. sell, 2. disburse proceeds, 3. she buys a place). That extra hassle extends your interaction with her by however long the refinance and her home purchase and move take. Would that delay cause you to miss some ideal market window (e.g., people moving before the school year starts)? A realtor could tell you. Would that delay make you lose your mind? (Quite possibly.) Could the delay factor be included in the negotiation? ("If She is unable to purchase a home within 60 days, She agrees to move into an apartment.") Also, I'd consider the impact of changing the order of these steps on her behavior. (Would being in her new place make her more likely to hold up the sale, or would the fact that she already moved make her more likely to go along with a reasonable offer?)
Transaction costs: That refinance / pulling-out-cash step might add transaction costs.
Risk: You'll need to be really conservative about how much cash to pull out for the house purchase to avoid ending up stuck underwater together, if market conditions changed significantly. Then if the house sells for more or less than expected, she might end up with more or less cash than expected. The worst kind of surprise would be a housing market crash that changed the home's value or even a natural disaster that destroyed the home, in which cases you'd be jointly carrying that mortgage until that problem could be addressed (e.g., until the home insurance money allowed you to rebuild and sell). It's up to you to consider how likely you believe that is. If I had to compare a 95% chance of paying an attorney $20k vs. the X% chance of the home's value changing significantly, I'd probably lean toward not paying the lawyer IF I thought I could avoid that otherwise.
One advantage of her plan is that she'd be out if the house during the sale, so showings could be more flexible and you could repaint or stage it to get a higher price.
tl;dr -- it depends on how much you value some time, hassle, and risk vs. how much you want to (and how likely you think you'll be able to) avoid lawyer fees.
posted by salvia at 4:47 PM on August 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
Her need to own another home before selling the current one seems rooted in family history and is something she can’t be easily reasoned out of. The idea of moving into an apartment in the interim is off the table.
To put it lightly, this is entitled bratty "i can't BELIEVE i got a yellow mercedes for my birthday and not a pink one" bs.
You said she'd have enough money to buy a home AND have 100k~ left over? Boo. fuckity. hoo.
Do not feel guilty at all, ever, about leaving her with that after you work with a lawyer. Oh noes, she had to rent an apartment while she finds a new house to pay all cash for!
posted by emptythought at 4:53 PM on August 27, 2015 [26 favorites]
To put it lightly, this is entitled bratty "i can't BELIEVE i got a yellow mercedes for my birthday and not a pink one" bs.
You said she'd have enough money to buy a home AND have 100k~ left over? Boo. fuckity. hoo.
Do not feel guilty at all, ever, about leaving her with that after you work with a lawyer. Oh noes, she had to rent an apartment while she finds a new house to pay all cash for!
posted by emptythought at 4:53 PM on August 27, 2015 [26 favorites]
It is not your problem to get your wife finance. Stop using we/us to describe the situation, there is you & there is her. You can be fair & generous during a divorce, you don't have to be a doormat. If she's going to have enough money to buy a place and 100K (and possible spousal support), she doesn't need anymore help than that.
Go find a good lawyer, sit down with them for more than the first "free" hour, tell them everything, do what they say.
posted by wwax at 4:57 PM on August 27, 2015 [7 favorites]
Go find a good lawyer, sit down with them for more than the first "free" hour, tell them everything, do what they say.
posted by wwax at 4:57 PM on August 27, 2015 [7 favorites]
I have been divorced (in Ontario), it sucked (due to my ex's actions throughout the process), it took many years of ongoing legal wranglings, it cost a heap of money, and I have absolutely zero regrets.
Retain a lawyer, tell them everything, ask them everything, and then do whatever they tell you to do. Yes, it will be expensive and you will cringe when the bills come in. But you will be paying the lawyer to do the work that needs to be done and which they have the experience to do properly. Engaging a lawyer does not mean you can't go through mediation, or therapy, or have lovely conversations, or anything else - it does mean that you will have someone advising you from a purely legal perspective and making sure you're protected now and in the future. It is well worth the money to let someone else handle that stress.
At this point in my life, I view a lawyer the same way that I view a mechanic or my dentist. If I find a good one (usually through word of mouth), they will do things that I cannot do and should not do myself. I try not to need them, and I ask them how to avoid needing them in the future, but they are knowledgeable in ways that I am absolutely not.
posted by VioletU at 5:07 PM on August 27, 2015 [3 favorites]
Retain a lawyer, tell them everything, ask them everything, and then do whatever they tell you to do. Yes, it will be expensive and you will cringe when the bills come in. But you will be paying the lawyer to do the work that needs to be done and which they have the experience to do properly. Engaging a lawyer does not mean you can't go through mediation, or therapy, or have lovely conversations, or anything else - it does mean that you will have someone advising you from a purely legal perspective and making sure you're protected now and in the future. It is well worth the money to let someone else handle that stress.
At this point in my life, I view a lawyer the same way that I view a mechanic or my dentist. If I find a good one (usually through word of mouth), they will do things that I cannot do and should not do myself. I try not to need them, and I ask them how to avoid needing them in the future, but they are knowledgeable in ways that I am absolutely not.
posted by VioletU at 5:07 PM on August 27, 2015 [3 favorites]
Everything that's been said is right on... get a lawyer. You're not obligated to get your soon-to-be ex into another house.
I'm wondering... is moving into an apartment off the table because she said it is? Because I think you really need to move out if it's at all possible. I went though an amicable divorce and we lived together for a few months, and in retrospect I should have moved out.
In my case, I got a new loan in just my name for the house and paid my ex half of the appraised value. Is that possible?
posted by Huck500 at 5:12 PM on August 27, 2015
I'm wondering... is moving into an apartment off the table because she said it is? Because I think you really need to move out if it's at all possible. I went though an amicable divorce and we lived together for a few months, and in retrospect I should have moved out.
In my case, I got a new loan in just my name for the house and paid my ex half of the appraised value. Is that possible?
posted by Huck500 at 5:12 PM on August 27, 2015
I am divorced and was a homemaker for a long time. I have some sympathy for wife. If she worked part time for you and your money is her only security, starting her life over will be incredibly challenging.
Having said that, the proposed settlement sounds like it will take adequate care of her.
I suggest you pick up a copy of "Getting to yes." It is a quick read and research based. It sounds to me like she has serious security issues. Combined with not trusting each other, you will have some challenges in getting her to feel taken care of by a counter offer. But if you understand what motivates her, it makes it enormously easier to put an offer on the table that she will take.
I got divorced without lawyers. The cost savings made it easier to not quibble and I frequently went along with whatever demands my husband made because it helped keep money in my pocket and helped move the divorce forward. But my husband was career army. So I knew and he knew that if he tried to just screw me over, I could go through his chain of command to get support payments. I am guessing your wife has no such "guarantee" in place to calm her insecurities. So, if all you have done so far is talk, maybe you need to put your counter offer in writing. Oral agreements are hard to bank on.
My point: You need to negotiate in a way that advocates for what you want while trying to address her need for security. Feelings come from somewhere. They can change if handled the right way. Offering her real security can reduce her emotional insecurity. Putting it in writing might work where empty words have failed. And try like hell to be mollifying and compassionate towards her. I know it is hard as hell, but it will save you time and money, pain and suffering.
I would explain the wife's desire to the bank and ask if there is any way to do it her way without increasing your entanglement as a couple and without increasing your exposure. If yes, I might well do it her way. But if no, you need the bank to tell her that. It will be more acceptable coming from them and may make her more amenable to looking for another solution.
posted by Michele in California at 5:35 PM on August 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
Having said that, the proposed settlement sounds like it will take adequate care of her.
I suggest you pick up a copy of "Getting to yes." It is a quick read and research based. It sounds to me like she has serious security issues. Combined with not trusting each other, you will have some challenges in getting her to feel taken care of by a counter offer. But if you understand what motivates her, it makes it enormously easier to put an offer on the table that she will take.
I got divorced without lawyers. The cost savings made it easier to not quibble and I frequently went along with whatever demands my husband made because it helped keep money in my pocket and helped move the divorce forward. But my husband was career army. So I knew and he knew that if he tried to just screw me over, I could go through his chain of command to get support payments. I am guessing your wife has no such "guarantee" in place to calm her insecurities. So, if all you have done so far is talk, maybe you need to put your counter offer in writing. Oral agreements are hard to bank on.
My point: You need to negotiate in a way that advocates for what you want while trying to address her need for security. Feelings come from somewhere. They can change if handled the right way. Offering her real security can reduce her emotional insecurity. Putting it in writing might work where empty words have failed. And try like hell to be mollifying and compassionate towards her. I know it is hard as hell, but it will save you time and money, pain and suffering.
I would explain the wife's desire to the bank and ask if there is any way to do it her way without increasing your entanglement as a couple and without increasing your exposure. If yes, I might well do it her way. But if no, you need the bank to tell her that. It will be more acceptable coming from them and may make her more amenable to looking for another solution.
posted by Michele in California at 5:35 PM on August 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
I recently finished my divorce. I strongly advise against getting in deeper in order to get out. Get a lawyer. It sounds like it will be a cheap investment.
posted by AugustWest at 6:11 PM on August 27, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by AugustWest at 6:11 PM on August 27, 2015 [4 favorites]
Lawyer up, make sure you get your half. You are being played.
posted by w0mbat at 6:47 PM on August 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by w0mbat at 6:47 PM on August 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
In (after) my divorce I indeed took out a joint line of credit with my ex-wife in order to finalize sale on a property that had lost value and was upside down on the mortgage. So, I can speak from the position of what you are considering doing.
Don't do it. Get a lawyer. I only entered this arrangement because throughout the process we were both abundantly respectful of our joint and individual financial situations. As soon as the whiff of manipulation or pressure is noted I would not trust this type of arrangement. You have well now than a whiff, just in this question. Protect yourself and move forward with the understanding that the law defines your responsibilities in part so you do not have to.
posted by meinvt at 8:34 PM on August 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
Don't do it. Get a lawyer. I only entered this arrangement because throughout the process we were both abundantly respectful of our joint and individual financial situations. As soon as the whiff of manipulation or pressure is noted I would not trust this type of arrangement. You have well now than a whiff, just in this question. Protect yourself and move forward with the understanding that the law defines your responsibilities in part so you do not have to.
posted by meinvt at 8:34 PM on August 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
Her need to own another home before selling the current one seems rooted in family history and is something she can’t be easily reasoned out of.
I think if you talk to the bank together and you are clear to the bankster that you two are divorcing, and you are trying to seperate your finances, the bank would not be wiling to extend the line of credit (they have seen enough drawn-out divorces to not want to get sucked into a bad deal for them). Can you call the bank ahead of the appointment and give a 10 second synopsis so they know your position? Do you have a formal separation agreement? You might want to present a letter to the bank formally letting them know you are not legally responsible for any debts she incurrs as of this date, including increasing the line of credit - or even fax it over before the appointment so they can say their hands are tied.
What she is asking for isn't reasonable at the moment but it would be completely reasonable to follow the normal steps:
1. Put current house up for sale
2. Get firm offer
3. She can then purchase her next house to close after the current house closes
It sounds like you have enough wiggle room (since you mention the $100,000 cash as well as her owning the new house outright) that buying the house while the rest of the money may be tied up (until all the disbursements are finished) would allow the process to move forward and her to have the stability of her new house.
If you are divorcing she can't turn to you for this type of emotional support (and this IS emotional support in the guise of financial support). It is not healthy for either of you if you try to provide this support for her. If she has some deep emotional needs that can only be fulfilled by buying her own house she is going to have to figure it out on her own.
posted by saucysault at 9:01 PM on August 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
I think if you talk to the bank together and you are clear to the bankster that you two are divorcing, and you are trying to seperate your finances, the bank would not be wiling to extend the line of credit (they have seen enough drawn-out divorces to not want to get sucked into a bad deal for them). Can you call the bank ahead of the appointment and give a 10 second synopsis so they know your position? Do you have a formal separation agreement? You might want to present a letter to the bank formally letting them know you are not legally responsible for any debts she incurrs as of this date, including increasing the line of credit - or even fax it over before the appointment so they can say their hands are tied.
What she is asking for isn't reasonable at the moment but it would be completely reasonable to follow the normal steps:
1. Put current house up for sale
2. Get firm offer
3. She can then purchase her next house to close after the current house closes
It sounds like you have enough wiggle room (since you mention the $100,000 cash as well as her owning the new house outright) that buying the house while the rest of the money may be tied up (until all the disbursements are finished) would allow the process to move forward and her to have the stability of her new house.
If you are divorcing she can't turn to you for this type of emotional support (and this IS emotional support in the guise of financial support). It is not healthy for either of you if you try to provide this support for her. If she has some deep emotional needs that can only be fulfilled by buying her own house she is going to have to figure it out on her own.
posted by saucysault at 9:01 PM on August 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
And bridge financing in Ontario is ONLY available if your property is for sale and has a firm offer. It wouldn't be applicable here.
posted by saucysault at 9:05 PM on August 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by saucysault at 9:05 PM on August 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
Her need to own another home before selling the current one seems rooted in family history and is something she can’t be easily reasoned out of.
Well too bad. Seriously, that's just tough. Her emotional needs are not part of what is a legal and financial negotiation. Get. Your. Own. Lawyer.
posted by DarlingBri at 9:23 PM on August 27, 2015 [4 favorites]
Well too bad. Seriously, that's just tough. Her emotional needs are not part of what is a legal and financial negotiation. Get. Your. Own. Lawyer.
posted by DarlingBri at 9:23 PM on August 27, 2015 [4 favorites]
You might start out with one of the Self Counsel books which are plain language tools for sorting out these issues. Perhaps you could each use a copy as a way to start a discussion.
Not suggesting this is a substitute for legal advice, though.
(FWIW, I think your offer to sell and divide assets in a way that allows her to meet the goal of house purchase sounds very good deal for your ex and she would be unwise to reject it).
posted by chapps at 9:31 PM on August 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
Not suggesting this is a substitute for legal advice, though.
(FWIW, I think your offer to sell and divide assets in a way that allows her to meet the goal of house purchase sounds very good deal for your ex and she would be unwise to reject it).
posted by chapps at 9:31 PM on August 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
Whatever happens in the short term if you push back and insist on doing this equitably rather than acquiescing to your wife's demands is going to be a lot less worse in the overall context of your life than getting more financially entangled at this stage. It feels like you're willing to consider signing up for long-term anguish in order to avoid short-term trauma.
Are you afraid she's going to be mad? Emotional? That you're going to feel intolerably guilty? All of those things are temporary and survivable. I'm taking this angle because you mentioned her being controlling. The act of resisting her final attempts to control you while she still can is both possible and survivable.
The only person whose future and happiness you should be looking out for now is you. So yes, get a lawyer.
posted by terretu at 11:28 PM on August 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
Are you afraid she's going to be mad? Emotional? That you're going to feel intolerably guilty? All of those things are temporary and survivable. I'm taking this angle because you mentioned her being controlling. The act of resisting her final attempts to control you while she still can is both possible and survivable.
The only person whose future and happiness you should be looking out for now is you. So yes, get a lawyer.
posted by terretu at 11:28 PM on August 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
This sounds like a last attempt at manipulation and a bad idea for both of you. If her career road will be rocky, the last thing she will need is more mortgage costs. She needs to buy a smaller place and leave you out of it.
posted by benzenedream at 12:22 AM on August 28, 2015
posted by benzenedream at 12:22 AM on August 28, 2015
Get your own lawyer.
You NEVER know how the personality of the person you presumably know best can change during the divorce process. Experiencing this betrayal on top of wrenching your lives apart will result in bad judgment on your part. The divorce process can be much worse than the marriage, and I almost gave my ex's whining ass a substantial asset just to get it over with. MY ATTORNEY TALKED ME OUT OF IT, THANK GOD. Now I'm living on the passive income, although low on the hog.
My dad, who was so Greatest Generation duty-bound and a devout Methodist who refused to go in saunas in Europe out of respect for my mother suddenly SCREWED over my rather mentally fragile mother in their divorce and I have never been more shocked at a personality change in my life. And I was an adult, not an hysterical teenager with zero understanding of adult relations.
GET AN ATTORNEY FOR YOU. You can neither prepare for nor manage irrational behavior, which is why you refer to and defer to the law.
posted by Punctual at 4:19 AM on August 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
You NEVER know how the personality of the person you presumably know best can change during the divorce process. Experiencing this betrayal on top of wrenching your lives apart will result in bad judgment on your part. The divorce process can be much worse than the marriage, and I almost gave my ex's whining ass a substantial asset just to get it over with. MY ATTORNEY TALKED ME OUT OF IT, THANK GOD. Now I'm living on the passive income, although low on the hog.
My dad, who was so Greatest Generation duty-bound and a devout Methodist who refused to go in saunas in Europe out of respect for my mother suddenly SCREWED over my rather mentally fragile mother in their divorce and I have never been more shocked at a personality change in my life. And I was an adult, not an hysterical teenager with zero understanding of adult relations.
GET AN ATTORNEY FOR YOU. You can neither prepare for nor manage irrational behavior, which is why you refer to and defer to the law.
posted by Punctual at 4:19 AM on August 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
Your lawyer (most important), best friend, therapist, and all of metafilter think this is a terrible idea. It is a terrible idea.
NB -- when you talk about selling your place, be sure to agree about how you are going to price it. My parents' neighbour agreed to sell the place after divorce, and it was listed at about 50% higher than it was worth, so, big surprise, it never sold and the ex-wife lives there still. (I don't know what happened in the end, but assume her parents bought him out.)
It's easy enough to agree to put it on the market, but you need to also make sure that when you get an offer, she'll be required to take it. (I have no idea if/how this is possible, so you should be speaking to that same lawyer again and bring up this specific concern.)
posted by jeather at 5:41 AM on August 28, 2015
NB -- when you talk about selling your place, be sure to agree about how you are going to price it. My parents' neighbour agreed to sell the place after divorce, and it was listed at about 50% higher than it was worth, so, big surprise, it never sold and the ex-wife lives there still. (I don't know what happened in the end, but assume her parents bought him out.)
It's easy enough to agree to put it on the market, but you need to also make sure that when you get an offer, she'll be required to take it. (I have no idea if/how this is possible, so you should be speaking to that same lawyer again and bring up this specific concern.)
posted by jeather at 5:41 AM on August 28, 2015
No, no, no, no, no.
You two are getting divorced for a reason.
You should sell the house, divide the assets 50/50 (after paying off debt), and have no further financial entanglements with your ex.
Please get a lawyer. Divorce is crazy-making. Let the lawyers handle the crazy.
posted by LittleMy at 5:47 AM on August 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
You two are getting divorced for a reason.
You should sell the house, divide the assets 50/50 (after paying off debt), and have no further financial entanglements with your ex.
Please get a lawyer. Divorce is crazy-making. Let the lawyers handle the crazy.
posted by LittleMy at 5:47 AM on August 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
I will add that there is zero conflict between reading up on negotiating tactics and trying to be nice to her face and also getting a lawyer and covering your ass. This is not an either/or situation. You can and probably should do both.
My divorce was amicable. I don't have the nightmare stories many have. That is partly because I married a very honorable and dutiful man. However, I believe it is also because I have certain soft skills, including negotiating skills. (The book I recommended is one of two texts used in a college class I had on Negotiation and Conflict Management. The other one is much meatier, so not a quick read.) In negotations, the greatest value is found in your differences, not your similarities. Socially, a lot of people are wired to look for common ground and bond over that. But you get a good trade where someone wants A and someone wants B and they can trade, as just a real simple example.
So if you understand what motivates her, it gets a whole lot easier to both get what you need and also see that she gets what she needs. Being civil is not about some idealistic Christian "Love thine enemy" kind of sensibility. It is about not giving her reason to be grudging, foot draggy, etc. Because it is not in your best interest to actively encourage her to make this harder.
I am not suggesting you martyr yourself and be her victim. I am suggesting a strategy that makes a win-win outcome more feasible.
My ex is a selfish, grudging, emotionally stingy man. I went out of my way to honor his good qualities during the divorce and not pick at his emotional wounds or criticize his shortcomings. It made the divorce a whole lot easier, not just emotionally but also in practical terms.
Best of luck.
posted by Michele in California at 12:24 PM on August 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
My divorce was amicable. I don't have the nightmare stories many have. That is partly because I married a very honorable and dutiful man. However, I believe it is also because I have certain soft skills, including negotiating skills. (The book I recommended is one of two texts used in a college class I had on Negotiation and Conflict Management. The other one is much meatier, so not a quick read.) In negotations, the greatest value is found in your differences, not your similarities. Socially, a lot of people are wired to look for common ground and bond over that. But you get a good trade where someone wants A and someone wants B and they can trade, as just a real simple example.
So if you understand what motivates her, it gets a whole lot easier to both get what you need and also see that she gets what she needs. Being civil is not about some idealistic Christian "Love thine enemy" kind of sensibility. It is about not giving her reason to be grudging, foot draggy, etc. Because it is not in your best interest to actively encourage her to make this harder.
I am not suggesting you martyr yourself and be her victim. I am suggesting a strategy that makes a win-win outcome more feasible.
My ex is a selfish, grudging, emotionally stingy man. I went out of my way to honor his good qualities during the divorce and not pick at his emotional wounds or criticize his shortcomings. It made the divorce a whole lot easier, not just emotionally but also in practical terms.
Best of luck.
posted by Michele in California at 12:24 PM on August 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
It all depends on what the Ontario law is. There are formulas everywhere on the division of marital property. Houses, cars, credit card debt are all different. Get your own lawyer. In my situation the value of the house was the tax value minus what mortgage was left. Half of that was what I had to pay the ex so I could keep the house. I had friends who did the sell and divide the money thing. Do not, I repeat do not, connect yourself with any sort of debt they will be having after the divorce.
posted by PJMoore at 12:40 PM on August 28, 2015
posted by PJMoore at 12:40 PM on August 28, 2015
The really hard thing to do when you leave someone who has made you responsible for their life, is to give back that responsibility without feeling guilty for letting them down when they continue to act irresponsibly. Just because you did all the sensible life stuff for the length of your relationship does not mean you have to keep doing it. You split the assets fairly, and walk away. Be polite at gatherings where you both are. If the ex ends up fucking up her life, ending up in prison with debt out the wazzoo and a rental property filled with their junk and the rent not paid, nor anything else, you don't have to do anything. Really. I know, right? Don't ask me how I know. So, yeah, not answering the question you asked, answering the question you should have asked. Work on letting go responsibility for the ex, even if you have to do something as twee as put a rubber band on your wrist and snap everytime your mind loops over the the list of things you know she won't have taken care of. Don't. It's over. You did your time. Split the assets and go no contact.
Unless there are children that will be living with her, in which case, a more complex ballgame.
posted by b33j at 9:14 PM on August 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
Unless there are children that will be living with her, in which case, a more complex ballgame.
posted by b33j at 9:14 PM on August 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by 256 at 3:20 PM on August 27, 2015 [58 favorites]