What vegetarian practices are most abhorrent to vegans?
May 30, 2015 4:29 PM Subscribe
I'm vegetarian, and don't eat either, but I'd certainly consider humanely-raised mutton to be much more "ethical" than, say, battery-farmed pork.
What would be the equivalent for vegans? I'm interested in adopting some vegan practices, but don't feel ready to go the whole hog yet. What changes to my lifestyle would seem most high-priority, from an ethical perspective, to someone who was vegan?
I'm an ovo-lacto vegetarian, and I've talked with a lot of vegans. It seems that where vegans have the biggest ethical problem with my diet is that I eat a lot of eggs. So they'd say to substitute eggs with scrambled tofu, or something else entirely.
However, if you're like me and have acid reflux (which about 40% of Americans have), be careful with scrambled tofu. It's always made with turmeric, which is generally very healthy but can exacerbate acid reflux.
posted by John Cohen at 4:46 PM on May 30, 2015 [2 favorites]
However, if you're like me and have acid reflux (which about 40% of Americans have), be careful with scrambled tofu. It's always made with turmeric, which is generally very healthy but can exacerbate acid reflux.
posted by John Cohen at 4:46 PM on May 30, 2015 [2 favorites]
I'm pescetarian but I've talked to vegans about this and eggs get mentioned a lot. Chickens are indeed kept in horrifying conditions as mentioned above.
posted by Librarypt at 5:00 PM on May 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Librarypt at 5:00 PM on May 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
Farming cows, for either meat or dairy, is insanely water-intensive as well as being a brutal industry (and we're growing water-sucking alfalfa to sell to China for cattle feed). I'm an omnivore, but a Californian omnivore, and beef and dairy are slipping off my list as well.
posted by Lyn Never at 5:02 PM on May 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Lyn Never at 5:02 PM on May 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
Eggs, dairy, and honey/beeswax feature highly in the criticisms I sometimes get from vegans I know.
posted by Hermione Granger at 5:15 PM on May 30, 2015
posted by Hermione Granger at 5:15 PM on May 30, 2015
I got into some pretty heated arguments about honey when I was a vegetarian. IMO, bees don't really care what happens to their honey, and they likely don't even possess the cognitive ability to recognize that they are being deprived of it. The bee hive-mind just says "Oh, we're low on honey. Make more honey!" But this position is pretty much sacrilege for most vegans.
posted by deathpanels at 5:21 PM on May 30, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by deathpanels at 5:21 PM on May 30, 2015 [5 favorites]
I was vegan until a few years ago when I became allergic to everything and am now downgraded to vegetarian. The biggest issues are going to vary a little person to person, but here's what I can give you for a rundown.
Dairy is inextricably linked to the meat industry. Dairy products come with a cycle of perpetual pregnancy and then being separated from their calves very shortly after birth, which lets humans use their milk. The calves are often raised for veal, which is particularly cruel. Factory farming is cruel, water-intensive, often involves poor working conditions, is not friendly to the environment, and is known for antibiotic overuse. Milk production is often increased with hormones, and most cheese is made with animal rennet, though getting kosher cheese isn't really seen as an improvement. There are a number of companies like Horizon that have organic certification, but are still factory farms. I'd say this is the biggest issue. If you can move to other kinds of milk, cheese, yogurt, you're golden. Daiya melts and is pretty decent, and there are a few places marketing good vegan cheeses. There are a lot of milk options - soy, rice, almond, hazelnut, sunflower, cashew, coconut, hemp, oat... some are more expensive than others. There are also some very good creamers if you use that for tea or coffee.
Eggs are the second-biggest. Chickens are subject to ugly abuses. If you can get eggs from someone who keeps chickens, this is less upsetting to some vegans but still means that the male chicks were killed, and probably in a way that is cruel. Tofu scramble is popular, and there are a lot of vegan substitutions available for baking.
After this you get to some smaller issues. Fur is anathema, don't even go there. Leather gets discussions around class issues and availability and climate, but if you have the option to go for non-animal-sourced products there are good quality shoes, bags, etc. these days. Honey people have divided opinions on. If you can avoid products that were tested on animals, that's often easy.
The one you may not be expecting here is to get your pet from a rescue, and not to support animal breeders. Vegans do not like animal breeders. Also, there are some vegans who want to move their pets to vegan diets, but this is considered controversial even in vegan circles. I've always fed my cats meat since cats are obligate carnivores, but there's always someone out there who wants vegan cat food.
posted by bile and syntax at 5:41 PM on May 30, 2015 [17 favorites]
Dairy is inextricably linked to the meat industry. Dairy products come with a cycle of perpetual pregnancy and then being separated from their calves very shortly after birth, which lets humans use their milk. The calves are often raised for veal, which is particularly cruel. Factory farming is cruel, water-intensive, often involves poor working conditions, is not friendly to the environment, and is known for antibiotic overuse. Milk production is often increased with hormones, and most cheese is made with animal rennet, though getting kosher cheese isn't really seen as an improvement. There are a number of companies like Horizon that have organic certification, but are still factory farms. I'd say this is the biggest issue. If you can move to other kinds of milk, cheese, yogurt, you're golden. Daiya melts and is pretty decent, and there are a few places marketing good vegan cheeses. There are a lot of milk options - soy, rice, almond, hazelnut, sunflower, cashew, coconut, hemp, oat... some are more expensive than others. There are also some very good creamers if you use that for tea or coffee.
Eggs are the second-biggest. Chickens are subject to ugly abuses. If you can get eggs from someone who keeps chickens, this is less upsetting to some vegans but still means that the male chicks were killed, and probably in a way that is cruel. Tofu scramble is popular, and there are a lot of vegan substitutions available for baking.
After this you get to some smaller issues. Fur is anathema, don't even go there. Leather gets discussions around class issues and availability and climate, but if you have the option to go for non-animal-sourced products there are good quality shoes, bags, etc. these days. Honey people have divided opinions on. If you can avoid products that were tested on animals, that's often easy.
The one you may not be expecting here is to get your pet from a rescue, and not to support animal breeders. Vegans do not like animal breeders. Also, there are some vegans who want to move their pets to vegan diets, but this is considered controversial even in vegan circles. I've always fed my cats meat since cats are obligate carnivores, but there's always someone out there who wants vegan cat food.
posted by bile and syntax at 5:41 PM on May 30, 2015 [17 favorites]
I went dairy-free for most of my first year of breastfeeding out of sympathy and solidarity with the mommy cows. Many vegans of my acquaintance praised the practice, and I realized how few people understand that, yes, cows must actually be pregnant and have babies to lactate--much like any other mammal. Instead, many people labor under the misconception that milking is pleasurable for the cows when in reality they are often over-engorged and suffering from mastitis. I've read terrible accounts by dairy farmers of the mourning process sows go through when their calves are taken away, and as a breastfeeding mother, I was pretty horrified by this.
However, if you like cheese, don't believe any vegan who says that daiya or any other cheese in an acceptable substitute. I found it pretty revolting, personally (though coconut milk is good!) Many cheese substitutes are not dairy free, to boot.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 5:49 PM on May 30, 2015 [4 favorites]
However, if you like cheese, don't believe any vegan who says that daiya or any other cheese in an acceptable substitute. I found it pretty revolting, personally (though coconut milk is good!) Many cheese substitutes are not dairy free, to boot.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 5:49 PM on May 30, 2015 [4 favorites]
If there's any way to find a source of milk and eggs that you truly feel comfortable with, that would be ideal. I would make that your main priority, rather than cutting out particular items. This may take time, and you may decide it's easier just to abstain at least partially. Unfortunately, product labeling is not always a great guide here.
Regarding actual dietary changes, though, I'd suggest the ones that can easily be made as the high-priority ones, honestly: the changes you could make now, except that you're hesitating on some sort of "purity" grounds. Only you know which particular aspects of eggs and dairy matter to you: maybe you really don't care about ever having an omelet again, but you have a bunch of cookie recipes that you just can't figure out substitutions for. Or maybe it's the opposite--you really love whole cow's milk in your cereal, and can't stand any replacements, but in your cooking you can't tell the difference between cow's milk and soymilk.
posted by cogitron at 5:50 PM on May 30, 2015
Regarding actual dietary changes, though, I'd suggest the ones that can easily be made as the high-priority ones, honestly: the changes you could make now, except that you're hesitating on some sort of "purity" grounds. Only you know which particular aspects of eggs and dairy matter to you: maybe you really don't care about ever having an omelet again, but you have a bunch of cookie recipes that you just can't figure out substitutions for. Or maybe it's the opposite--you really love whole cow's milk in your cereal, and can't stand any replacements, but in your cooking you can't tell the difference between cow's milk and soymilk.
posted by cogitron at 5:50 PM on May 30, 2015
I think honey is immoral because you're exploiting labor.
"Unfortunately, like factory farmers, many beekeepers take inhumane steps to ensure personal safety and reach production quotas. It’s not unusual for larger honey producers to cut off the queen bee’s wings so that she can’t leave the colony or to have her artificially inseminated on a bee-sized version of the factory farm “rape rack.” When the keeper wants to move a queen to a new colony, she is carried with “bodyguard” bees, all of whom—if they survive transport—will be killed by bees in the new colony. Large commercial operations may also take all the honey instead of leaving the 60 pounds or so that bees need to get through the winter. They replace the rich honey with a cheap sugar substitute that is not as fortifying.
In colder areas, if the keepers consider it too costly to keep the bees alive through the winter, they destroy the hives by pouring gasoline on them and setting them on fire. Also, bees are often killed or have their wings and legs torn off by haphazard handling. According to the Cook-DuPage Beekeepers Association, humans have been using honey since about 15,000 B.C., but it wasn’t until the 20th century that people turned bees into factory-farmed animals. Happily, many sweeteners are made without killing bees: Rice syrup, molasses, sorghum, Sucanat, barley malt, maple syrup, cane sugar, and dried fruit or fruit concentrates can replace honey in recipes. Using these will keep your diet bee-free."
posted by Dr. Sockley McThrowaway at 7:16 PM on May 30, 2015 [6 favorites]
"Unfortunately, like factory farmers, many beekeepers take inhumane steps to ensure personal safety and reach production quotas. It’s not unusual for larger honey producers to cut off the queen bee’s wings so that she can’t leave the colony or to have her artificially inseminated on a bee-sized version of the factory farm “rape rack.” When the keeper wants to move a queen to a new colony, she is carried with “bodyguard” bees, all of whom—if they survive transport—will be killed by bees in the new colony. Large commercial operations may also take all the honey instead of leaving the 60 pounds or so that bees need to get through the winter. They replace the rich honey with a cheap sugar substitute that is not as fortifying.
In colder areas, if the keepers consider it too costly to keep the bees alive through the winter, they destroy the hives by pouring gasoline on them and setting them on fire. Also, bees are often killed or have their wings and legs torn off by haphazard handling. According to the Cook-DuPage Beekeepers Association, humans have been using honey since about 15,000 B.C., but it wasn’t until the 20th century that people turned bees into factory-farmed animals. Happily, many sweeteners are made without killing bees: Rice syrup, molasses, sorghum, Sucanat, barley malt, maple syrup, cane sugar, and dried fruit or fruit concentrates can replace honey in recipes. Using these will keep your diet bee-free."
posted by Dr. Sockley McThrowaway at 7:16 PM on May 30, 2015 [6 favorites]
With respect to the idea that there is no such thing as cruelty-free dairy, one organisation in the UK is practising slaughter- AND cruelty-free dairy. Here is their story.
So if one is an absolute milk or cheese die-hard --and if you are willing to pay more and a similar organisation exists near you-- this is one way to have your (cheese)cake and eat it too. :)
As far as what easy steps you can take to incorporate some vegan practices, I'd say start with: (1) replacing your milk/ice cream/yogurt with a non-dairy milk (and, perhaps for environmental reasons, non-soy), and (2) either replacing eggs with a vegan alternative (tofu-type for scrambles, apple sauce for baking) OR buying eggs from local, small-scale "hobby" farms (people whose chickens have names and get to engage in natural behaviour).
posted by Halo in reverse at 1:55 AM on May 31, 2015 [3 favorites]
So if one is an absolute milk or cheese die-hard --and if you are willing to pay more and a similar organisation exists near you-- this is one way to have your (cheese)cake and eat it too. :)
As far as what easy steps you can take to incorporate some vegan practices, I'd say start with: (1) replacing your milk/ice cream/yogurt with a non-dairy milk (and, perhaps for environmental reasons, non-soy), and (2) either replacing eggs with a vegan alternative (tofu-type for scrambles, apple sauce for baking) OR buying eggs from local, small-scale "hobby" farms (people whose chickens have names and get to engage in natural behaviour).
posted by Halo in reverse at 1:55 AM on May 31, 2015 [3 favorites]
Mod note: A couple of comments deleted; I understand people have a lot of good ideas about ethical food sources, but for the purposes of Ask Metafilter, we need to stick with the actual question. Thanks.
posted by taz (staff) at 3:22 AM on May 31, 2015
posted by taz (staff) at 3:22 AM on May 31, 2015
Eggs stick in my mind because of chick culling. Hard to get that grinder out of your head.
posted by bitterpants at 6:25 AM on May 31, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by bitterpants at 6:25 AM on May 31, 2015 [2 favorites]
Absolutely dairy. I'm a vegan and frankly I would rather someone eat beef than dairy products. Dairy is hideously cruel to the mother cows (who must be impregnated repeatedly, have her babies stolen repeatedly, and live in horrifying filth with mastitis more often than not), their female calves (who have the same fates as their mothers), and their male calves (who are kept in a tiny enclosure with no freedom of movement for a couple of miserable months, fed nutritionally deficient milk so their muscles don't develop properly, then slaughtered for veal). There is no veal industry without the dairy industry. Please, try giving up dairy. I was vegetarian for a year or so before I went vegan and thought I would NEVER be able to give up dairy. I was such a cheese addict I once spent $180 on fancy gourmet cheeses and had a solo cheese tasting party. I used to buy a block of Muenster and eat the block plain on the way home from the grocery store! And yet, once I decided to do it, it was SO easy that I actually went through a period of grief over how long it had taken me to do it. Now that you know how cruel dairy is, don't be like me and tell yourself you're doing your best when you really aren't. Please cut out dairy. Your body will thank you and your conscience will thank you.
posted by srrh at 8:43 AM on May 31, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by srrh at 8:43 AM on May 31, 2015 [4 favorites]
If you are going to take in consideration non-domesticated animals' welfare, row crops such as corn, soy and wheat have demolished the prairie and continuous expansion of industrial production of these products causes staggering loss of habitat that could push some animals into the federal protection programs. Migratory birds are badly affected by water quality changes as well as the habitat loss.
Once prairie is converted to crop land, reverting to prairie takes decades.
Here's a really interesting article from the Environmental Working Group and map of row crop expansion in the last 10 years or so:
Going Going Gone!
Which really hammers home that the lowest impact food is what you can create yourself, and second best is from small farmers that farm ethically. Industrial production bows to the dollar not an ethical standard. Smaller production is almost always more ethical.
posted by littlewater at 1:19 PM on May 31, 2015 [1 favorite]
Once prairie is converted to crop land, reverting to prairie takes decades.
Here's a really interesting article from the Environmental Working Group and map of row crop expansion in the last 10 years or so:
Going Going Gone!
Which really hammers home that the lowest impact food is what you can create yourself, and second best is from small farmers that farm ethically. Industrial production bows to the dollar not an ethical standard. Smaller production is almost always more ethical.
posted by littlewater at 1:19 PM on May 31, 2015 [1 favorite]
Well, I'm neither a vegan nor a vegetarian but I discussed this with two friends who are the former. This sample is likely to skew towards valuing the avoidance of suffering over ensuring survival so take that into account, your vegan mileage may vary considerably.
This is the list we came up with, in order from worst to least bad (so if you want to be 'part vegan', this is the order in which you would give things up if you could).
The ranking is driven by how cruel the production is and whether suitable alternatives exist.
1) Fur, farmed - not a food but makes the top of the list because it's both gratuitously cruel and totally pointless.
2) Dairy - discussed at length above. Cruel and unnecessary.
3) Fur, hunted - [Probably very controversial among many vegans putting this below dairy, especially since this explicitly includes fur obtained by clubbing seals. Take this as a measure of the sentiment against the dairy industry.]
4) Eggs
[Lobsters, crabs] Not numbered because vegetarians don't even eat them but pointed out by one of my correspondents that they'd rather people eat lobster and not drink milk and eat eggs than vice versa. Due to the lack of complex neural structures.
5) Leather - Only this far down because alternative materials are inferior.
6) Honey - Doesn't kill (many) of the bees, lack of complex neural structures.
Entries in the list can move up or down depending on the nature of the specific operation but this is the 'un-inflected' order.
posted by atrazine at 5:15 AM on June 1, 2015
This is the list we came up with, in order from worst to least bad (so if you want to be 'part vegan', this is the order in which you would give things up if you could).
The ranking is driven by how cruel the production is and whether suitable alternatives exist.
1) Fur, farmed - not a food but makes the top of the list because it's both gratuitously cruel and totally pointless.
2) Dairy - discussed at length above. Cruel and unnecessary.
3) Fur, hunted - [Probably very controversial among many vegans putting this below dairy, especially since this explicitly includes fur obtained by clubbing seals. Take this as a measure of the sentiment against the dairy industry.]
4) Eggs
[Lobsters, crabs] Not numbered because vegetarians don't even eat them but pointed out by one of my correspondents that they'd rather people eat lobster and not drink milk and eat eggs than vice versa. Due to the lack of complex neural structures.
5) Leather - Only this far down because alternative materials are inferior.
6) Honey - Doesn't kill (many) of the bees, lack of complex neural structures.
Entries in the list can move up or down depending on the nature of the specific operation but this is the 'un-inflected' order.
posted by atrazine at 5:15 AM on June 1, 2015
Most of the vegans I know would choose a water-dwelling living thing over dairy, if they were going to have a day off the wagon. But people aren't all vegan for the exact same reason, so it kind of depends on the vegan.
It gets a lot more fraught if you bother to count the cost of human suffering in any given food's production, but I feel like I hear that conversation a lot more from omnivores than vegans.
posted by Lyn Never at 8:51 AM on June 1, 2015
It gets a lot more fraught if you bother to count the cost of human suffering in any given food's production, but I feel like I hear that conversation a lot more from omnivores than vegans.
posted by Lyn Never at 8:51 AM on June 1, 2015
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by littlegreen at 4:36 PM on May 30, 2015 [5 favorites]