Regulations for Exterior Lead Paint Removal in PA, US
May 28, 2015 4:25 PM Subscribe
I am looking for State regulations for exterior lead paint removal in Pennsylvania. Or if you've had lead paint removed from your house in Pennsylvania (or really any state since I think the rules are pretty similar) by a contractor certified in lead paint removal since the new rules went into effect a few years ago; I would appreciate a description of the precautions the contractor took.
We recently hired a contractor to remove lead paint from the exterior of our brick house built in 1869, located in an Historic District. The original bid was $6000, they tested the paint, found it had lead, and increased the bid by $3800.
We had previously had another contractor remove paint from another part of our house. That contractor did not test for lead. We were unhappy about how much of a mess they made so for the 2nd round we went with the more expensive, highly recommended contractor.
We're concerned though, that the current contractor didn't really do anything significantly different than the first contractor. We're trying to figure out if 1) they actually did what they were supposed to do 2) if it would be reasonable for us to ask them to discount some of the $3800 if they did not.
Both contractors used the same kind of solvent and then power washed it off. This was part of the original estimate - its a historic district - no sandblasting allowed. The only difference was that the current contractors collected some of the runoff from the spray when the washed/scrapped off the solvent into large plastic buckets. They didn't collect the run-off when they originally washed down the walls, and there are paint chips all over my garden extending into our neighbors' yard. And the sidewalks and our garden paths were soaking wet, and there's junk all over our plants in the garden. I'm also concerned that we came home a couple of nights and there was red dust all over the sidewalk and our front steps which is around the corner of the building from the walls being stripped. That has been cleaned up (and they told me it was just dust from the mortar, but that still sounds like kind BS - the mortar had paint on it.)
When I talked to the contractor about my concerns he said the extra $3800 was for the certification and for the disposal of the water in the tanks. Does that sound reasonable? That just seems like a lot to me for disposing on one drum of waste waster. He also told me the guys working weren't required to wear protective gear while outside, only for interior lead removal.
I have tried looking through our city (pittsburgh), state (PA) and national (USA) websites to find out what the requirements are but all I could really find were regulations about how many of hours of training were required to get the certifications, not actually what I should expect as a home owner, or what the minimum standards are. Most of the DYI guidelines talked about protecting everything with plastic and wearing protective gear. Related: the guys that were working were sub-contractors - I asked and was told that they were certified, but I don't know what kind of proof I would need. I'm pretty sure the primary contractor was certified (printed certification numbers on the invoices etc)
I'm withholding the final payment until at least the paint chips are out our neighbor's yard and our garden. I'm trying to decide if I should negotiate with contractor to reduce the charge for the lead mitigation since I don't feel like they actually did anything that they would have done differently, other than maybe the runoff - and even that seems like what they should have been doing that for this solvent anyway.
Frankly, I also really concerned that they just contaminated my whole neighborhood too, if they weren't following the guidelines there were supposed to be.
Interested in hearing from folks who are certified or have had this process done on their own house. Or if someone actually knows how to get a copy of the requirements.
We recently hired a contractor to remove lead paint from the exterior of our brick house built in 1869, located in an Historic District. The original bid was $6000, they tested the paint, found it had lead, and increased the bid by $3800.
We had previously had another contractor remove paint from another part of our house. That contractor did not test for lead. We were unhappy about how much of a mess they made so for the 2nd round we went with the more expensive, highly recommended contractor.
We're concerned though, that the current contractor didn't really do anything significantly different than the first contractor. We're trying to figure out if 1) they actually did what they were supposed to do 2) if it would be reasonable for us to ask them to discount some of the $3800 if they did not.
Both contractors used the same kind of solvent and then power washed it off. This was part of the original estimate - its a historic district - no sandblasting allowed. The only difference was that the current contractors collected some of the runoff from the spray when the washed/scrapped off the solvent into large plastic buckets. They didn't collect the run-off when they originally washed down the walls, and there are paint chips all over my garden extending into our neighbors' yard. And the sidewalks and our garden paths were soaking wet, and there's junk all over our plants in the garden. I'm also concerned that we came home a couple of nights and there was red dust all over the sidewalk and our front steps which is around the corner of the building from the walls being stripped. That has been cleaned up (and they told me it was just dust from the mortar, but that still sounds like kind BS - the mortar had paint on it.)
When I talked to the contractor about my concerns he said the extra $3800 was for the certification and for the disposal of the water in the tanks. Does that sound reasonable? That just seems like a lot to me for disposing on one drum of waste waster. He also told me the guys working weren't required to wear protective gear while outside, only for interior lead removal.
I have tried looking through our city (pittsburgh), state (PA) and national (USA) websites to find out what the requirements are but all I could really find were regulations about how many of hours of training were required to get the certifications, not actually what I should expect as a home owner, or what the minimum standards are. Most of the DYI guidelines talked about protecting everything with plastic and wearing protective gear. Related: the guys that were working were sub-contractors - I asked and was told that they were certified, but I don't know what kind of proof I would need. I'm pretty sure the primary contractor was certified (printed certification numbers on the invoices etc)
I'm withholding the final payment until at least the paint chips are out our neighbor's yard and our garden. I'm trying to decide if I should negotiate with contractor to reduce the charge for the lead mitigation since I don't feel like they actually did anything that they would have done differently, other than maybe the runoff - and even that seems like what they should have been doing that for this solvent anyway.
Frankly, I also really concerned that they just contaminated my whole neighborhood too, if they weren't following the guidelines there were supposed to be.
Interested in hearing from folks who are certified or have had this process done on their own house. Or if someone actually knows how to get a copy of the requirements.
Most county health dept have a lead program, you could start there.
posted by Melsky at 5:23 PM on May 28, 2015
posted by Melsky at 5:23 PM on May 28, 2015
Best answer: We just did lead abatement On our home exterior in NC and our contractor cordoned off the area with tape saying "Danger: LEAD KEEP OUT", covered everything in plastic sheeting about 12ft out from the house and vacuumed the paint chips up from the yard. Literally vacuumed too, had two guys with backpack hepa filter vacuums walking around my yard vacuuming, my toddler thought this was hilarious.
I think you need to call someone about the lead abatement. Ours cost is an additional $600 on a $3400 job.
posted by julie_of_the_jungle at 7:30 PM on May 28, 2015
I think you need to call someone about the lead abatement. Ours cost is an additional $600 on a $3400 job.
posted by julie_of_the_jungle at 7:30 PM on May 28, 2015
Best answer: You can consult with an attorney to learn more about the laws and whether you can sue the contractors (and/or their insurance company) if they have contaminated your home and property with lead paint chips and dust. Information about how to find an attorney is available at the MeFi Wiki Get a lawyer page, and the Pennsylvania Bar Association offers a lawyer referral service that can include an initial consultation of up to one half-hour with an attorney for a fee of $30.
Frankly, I also really concerned that they just contaminated my whole neighborhood too
You can also consult with an attorney about your potential liability if the lead contamination isn't properly remediated. Your own lawyer can also explain more about the options offered by the Pennsylvania Attorney General's Office also offers information about options for consumers, which includes a toll-free number 1-800-441-2555 for the Bureau of Consumer Protection.
If you have kids, you may need to find alternative housing, and your doctor can advise you on precautions to take whether you have children or not.
posted by Little Dawn at 8:14 PM on May 28, 2015
Frankly, I also really concerned that they just contaminated my whole neighborhood too
You can also consult with an attorney about your potential liability if the lead contamination isn't properly remediated. Your own lawyer can also explain more about the options offered by the Pennsylvania Attorney General's Office also offers information about options for consumers, which includes a toll-free number 1-800-441-2555 for the Bureau of Consumer Protection.
If you have kids, you may need to find alternative housing, and your doctor can advise you on precautions to take whether you have children or not.
posted by Little Dawn at 8:14 PM on May 28, 2015
Best answer: Priority should absolutely to get those paint chips from the garden vacuumed up immediately. Note that it is very likely now that your soil in your garden and neighbor's garden is contaminated with lead given the water runoff, so *please* be careful with kids around there don't grow anything edible from there until you've verified with a soil test.
The dust from the mortar will also be a likely source of disturbed lead now in dust form.
You'll want to get the soil tested for lead contamination. I'm going through this headache now as the previous homeowner scraped off lead paint from the rear exterior of the house and simply let it fall to the soil below, so all of the tests for lead contamination came back fairly high.
posted by Karaage at 9:33 PM on May 28, 2015
The dust from the mortar will also be a likely source of disturbed lead now in dust form.
You'll want to get the soil tested for lead contamination. I'm going through this headache now as the previous homeowner scraped off lead paint from the rear exterior of the house and simply let it fall to the soil below, so all of the tests for lead contamination came back fairly high.
posted by Karaage at 9:33 PM on May 28, 2015
Best answer: Lowe's Settles EPA Lead Paint Violations By Its Contractors [ABC News]
WASHINGTON - Home improvement giant Lowe's Companies Inc. has agreed to pay $500,000 after federal investigators found its home renovation contractors in nine states had violated safety standards for lead paint. The retail chain was also unable to provide documentation proving some contractors employed by the company were certified to work with the toxic substance, the Environmental Protection Agency and Justice Department said today. [...]It's banned but not gone: Lead paint is still a danger [USA Today]
The EPA also found contractors had failed to properly clean and contain work areas in three homes, although the agency emphasized they had not found any direct cases of bodily harm in the course of their investigation.
"We had the exterior of our home repainted, and it created a cloud of lead that seeped inside," says Rubin, 37. "Now my babies, who were fine before, have behavioral problems and long-term learning disabilities."posted by Little Dawn at 6:19 AM on May 29, 2015
After filing a lawsuit — and accepting a settlement — Rubin learned that the contractor she had hired was not certified in lead-based paint removal methods.
Best answer: Pennsylvania's RRP is for people who do painting, window replacement, blah blah blah and *may* come into contact with lead based paints. It covers correct behaviors for those instances. The RRP thing is NOT training or certification in "lead abatement" nor is it intended to be used as such. Lead abatement is a whole different breed of cat than RRP and this was VERY CLEARLY covered in the course I took for RRP certification.
Source: I am RRP certified in Pennsylvania. Also, you are totally correct to be concerned about visible bits of paint chipping in your yard and your neighbor's yard.
posted by which_chick at 3:19 PM on May 30, 2015
Source: I am RRP certified in Pennsylvania. Also, you are totally correct to be concerned about visible bits of paint chipping in your yard and your neighbor's yard.
posted by which_chick at 3:19 PM on May 30, 2015
There absolutely should not be chips of lead contaminated paint all over the ground. That is the most basic of basic rules for lead abatement, is that you keep it off the ground. Ingestion of lead-contaminated dirt by children is a primary mode of lead poisining, and the dirt gets contmainated from BS like your contractor is pulling. Report them to your building department, they are completely failing at a basic task. It's not that hard to do it right, sheesh.
posted by annie o at 10:00 PM on May 30, 2015
posted by annie o at 10:00 PM on May 30, 2015
Response by poster: Follow up:
I spoke to the County health department and they said that 1) since the baby isn't crawling yet and the contractors used primarily water based methods that it is unlikely the baby is in any danger 2) they feel any visible paint chips are unacceptable but referred me to the EPA for enforcement. 3) it's Pittsburgh, the houses are from the 1860's there's probably already high levels of lead in the soil so testing would probably show elevated lead anyway so it will be hard to prove contamination. (except of course for the massive amounts of visible paint chips)
We've been talking with the neighbors and made sure that their garden was a cleaned up as we could get it. They pulled the mint that was covered in overspray and mulched over the remaining chips. We owe them at least a pretty garden container of mint. They've been very nice.
I also spoke to EPA enforcement - who says we clearly have cause to file a complaint (i.e. - we wouldn't be wasting their time.) No matter what the contract says about it not being "State abatement" they are still required to to follow the RRP procedures - according to the EPA this is not something we could waive contractually unless it was an emergency renovation (they had our deposit for over 8 months). We understood it was not formal lead abatement, but we were told that the additional $3800 was to cover procedures required by law to deal with the paint correctly. We weren't thrilled about the high price but figured at least they would be forced to be neater. (The woman from the EPA enforcement was frankly a little taken aback at how high the cost was - safe lead handling is really that expensive). Specifically the EPA was concerned that they didn't 1) provide us with the required educational material 2) did not post the proper signs 3) did not follow proper containment procedures 4) that there were obvious visible debris including paint chips after the job. We are still debating about filing a formal complaint but at this point we feel obligated to.
The contractors have now threatened to lien our house for non-payment saying they completed the contract. (We actually dispute even that -as a separate issue from the lead). We have a consultation with a lawyer scheduled for tomorrow.
Thanks for your help everyone - We didn't even know where to start.
posted by DarthDuckie at 7:00 PM on June 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
I spoke to the County health department and they said that 1) since the baby isn't crawling yet and the contractors used primarily water based methods that it is unlikely the baby is in any danger 2) they feel any visible paint chips are unacceptable but referred me to the EPA for enforcement. 3) it's Pittsburgh, the houses are from the 1860's there's probably already high levels of lead in the soil so testing would probably show elevated lead anyway so it will be hard to prove contamination. (except of course for the massive amounts of visible paint chips)
We've been talking with the neighbors and made sure that their garden was a cleaned up as we could get it. They pulled the mint that was covered in overspray and mulched over the remaining chips. We owe them at least a pretty garden container of mint. They've been very nice.
I also spoke to EPA enforcement - who says we clearly have cause to file a complaint (i.e. - we wouldn't be wasting their time.) No matter what the contract says about it not being "State abatement" they are still required to to follow the RRP procedures - according to the EPA this is not something we could waive contractually unless it was an emergency renovation (they had our deposit for over 8 months). We understood it was not formal lead abatement, but we were told that the additional $3800 was to cover procedures required by law to deal with the paint correctly. We weren't thrilled about the high price but figured at least they would be forced to be neater. (The woman from the EPA enforcement was frankly a little taken aback at how high the cost was - safe lead handling is really that expensive). Specifically the EPA was concerned that they didn't 1) provide us with the required educational material 2) did not post the proper signs 3) did not follow proper containment procedures 4) that there were obvious visible debris including paint chips after the job. We are still debating about filing a formal complaint but at this point we feel obligated to.
The contractors have now threatened to lien our house for non-payment saying they completed the contract. (We actually dispute even that -as a separate issue from the lead). We have a consultation with a lawyer scheduled for tomorrow.
Thanks for your help everyone - We didn't even know where to start.
posted by DarthDuckie at 7:00 PM on June 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
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There is a more specific breakdown of what the RRP rule requires in this pdf. Pg 11 says that exterior work areas must be protected by plastic sheeting extending at least 10 feet or as far as it takes to contain the material. Pg. 20 says the work area must be completely clean of dust and debris (paint chips) at the end of each day. It sounds like your guys did not do these things, so I would say you are probably right to be concerned.
If you want to figure out how to escalate this, I would suggest calling your county health agency. They are usually the correct folks to ask, or if they aren't, they will know who is. I would also suggest photographing the paint chips on the ground to document the situation.
(Standard disclaimer: I am an environmental consultant, but I am not your environmental consultant.)
posted by pie ninja at 4:53 PM on May 28, 2015 [2 favorites]