Definitive test to see if someone is eating strictly vegan?
April 28, 2015 12:01 PM Subscribe
So, I made a drunken bet with someone. They made the claim to me that they will eat vegan for the next 10 weeks. The stakes are high enough that I don't want to lose. Can the collective mind help me devise a way to verify the claims made are accurate?
My Brother-in-Law and I got a little drunk and he made a wild claim and I took the bait. 10 weeks, strictly vegan (for him - I get to do whatever I want). But, as with everything, there are complications:
If there is any additional information that I can provide, I'm more than happy to do so. I'm just not sure what information is helpful in this matter. Please set aside any concerns about his or my motivations for entering this bet, for the purposes of this question. In hindsight, I should have let this one pass without interjecting...
Cold-pressed, organic juices for all who help me!
My Brother-in-Law and I got a little drunk and he made a wild claim and I took the bait. 10 weeks, strictly vegan (for him - I get to do whatever I want). But, as with everything, there are complications:
- I live in Texas, he lives in New York.
- I don't have any way to monitor his intake of foods (besides what he chooses to share with me).
- I'm sure he would never intentionally lie to me, but I'm worried about sins of omission (example: unknowingly sweetening a kale-based juice with honey).
If there is any additional information that I can provide, I'm more than happy to do so. I'm just not sure what information is helpful in this matter. Please set aside any concerns about his or my motivations for entering this bet, for the purposes of this question. In hindsight, I should have let this one pass without interjecting...
Cold-pressed, organic juices for all who help me!
It's not like there is a urine test to see if someone hasn't eaten animal products. Make him download the MyFitnessPal app and scan the barcode of everything he's eaten? Then at least for those items, you know exactly what he ate -- you will know if that veggie burger had cheese in it. That won't work for any meals he orders out, but he could still search their database and add them. If it's a chain restaurant, then it will definitely be in their database. He can make his food diary public so you can see it everyday, but if he orders a steak when he's out and adds a salad from the database, or if he does add honey instead of agave nectar to his tea, you will of course never know.
posted by AppleTurnover at 12:10 PM on April 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by AppleTurnover at 12:10 PM on April 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
Get your sibling involved as referee? Assuming the stakes are not such that she'd be swayed to fudge the job. And assuming she'd be willing, which she may very well not be.
posted by Stacey at 12:12 PM on April 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Stacey at 12:12 PM on April 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
Unfortunately, you will have to work within the confines of the honor system. There is no blood test, for example, to see if a person just drank a cup of tea sweetened with cane sugar instead of honey, and even if it did, it couldn't test if the sugar was refined with bone char.
The best you can do is have him record everything contemporaneously and hope for a gotcha when he does something like drink a beer clarified with isinglass. In any event, please keep in mind that self-reported data will not be 100% accurate even if the reporter thinks he is being completely honest.
posted by Tanizaki at 12:16 PM on April 28, 2015 [3 favorites]
The best you can do is have him record everything contemporaneously and hope for a gotcha when he does something like drink a beer clarified with isinglass. In any event, please keep in mind that self-reported data will not be 100% accurate even if the reporter thinks he is being completely honest.
posted by Tanizaki at 12:16 PM on April 28, 2015 [3 favorites]
If you can get him to log all his food in MyFitnessPal, checking the cholesterol number in his food diary is a good way to easily verify. Dietary cholesterol is only found in animal products.
posted by something something at 12:17 PM on April 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by something something at 12:17 PM on April 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
Have him take a picture of his plate with his phone whenever he eats.
If he's like most people, it will take him at least a couple of weeks to figure out how to get enough calories while on a vegan diet. He'll lose a lot of weight and be very grouchy and tired during that time. You could use that to check.
posted by miyabo at 12:28 PM on April 28, 2015 [8 favorites]
If he's like most people, it will take him at least a couple of weeks to figure out how to get enough calories while on a vegan diet. He'll lose a lot of weight and be very grouchy and tired during that time. You could use that to check.
posted by miyabo at 12:28 PM on April 28, 2015 [8 favorites]
Common sense answer: Its a drunk bet right? So, don't be so insistent about winning it, trust your brother in law.
Anal-retentive desire to ensure accuracy answer: poop tests for digestion and absorption markers would indicate if he has eaten any non-vegan products.
posted by TheLittlePrince at 12:31 PM on April 28, 2015
Anal-retentive desire to ensure accuracy answer: poop tests for digestion and absorption markers would indicate if he has eaten any non-vegan products.
posted by TheLittlePrince at 12:31 PM on April 28, 2015
I've been vegan for over a decade and I don't think there's any way you can do this on such a granular level without relying on his word to at least some degree.
The only meaningful suggestion I can offer would be to ask him to get a full blood workup done ASAP, then have another one done in ten weeks -- especially if he doesn't have a lot of (any?) experience with eating an entirely plant-based diet, I would expect his B12, D, and iron levels to drop. And unless he's eating nothing but junk food (read: lots of hydrogenated oils), his cholesterol, blood pressure, and weight are very likely to have decreased as well.
Stuff like honey can't be tested for in any way, shape, or form; it's metabolized and digested the same as any other non-vegan carbohydrate. If he's looking for recipes, have him check out The PPK. Good luck to both of you!
posted by divined by radio at 12:34 PM on April 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
The only meaningful suggestion I can offer would be to ask him to get a full blood workup done ASAP, then have another one done in ten weeks -- especially if he doesn't have a lot of (any?) experience with eating an entirely plant-based diet, I would expect his B12, D, and iron levels to drop. And unless he's eating nothing but junk food (read: lots of hydrogenated oils), his cholesterol, blood pressure, and weight are very likely to have decreased as well.
Stuff like honey can't be tested for in any way, shape, or form; it's metabolized and digested the same as any other non-vegan carbohydrate. If he's looking for recipes, have him check out The PPK. Good luck to both of you!
posted by divined by radio at 12:34 PM on April 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
I'm worried about sins of omission (example: unknowingly sweetening a kale-based juice with honey)
There is no way to tell unless you have him log everything he eats, brand names included, and then you double check to make sure everything is vegan.
A cruel way to tell is to have him eat a McDonald's cheeseburger or some meat/dairy-heavy meal at the end of the 10 weeks. I've been vegan for 5 years and any time that I've unknowingly eaten something that has meat or dairy, I've gotten violently sick within an hour. Someone who has been at it for 10 weeks may not have a similar reaction.
posted by dangerbird at 1:04 PM on April 28, 2015
There is no way to tell unless you have him log everything he eats, brand names included, and then you double check to make sure everything is vegan.
A cruel way to tell is to have him eat a McDonald's cheeseburger or some meat/dairy-heavy meal at the end of the 10 weeks. I've been vegan for 5 years and any time that I've unknowingly eaten something that has meat or dairy, I've gotten violently sick within an hour. Someone who has been at it for 10 weeks may not have a similar reaction.
posted by dangerbird at 1:04 PM on April 28, 2015
This is probably an easy bet to win. Look into the veganness of everyday cane sugar; it is often processed with bone char filters. Many vegans find this unacceptable.
Here is a list of bone char free vegan sugar companies
posted by aniola at 1:30 PM on April 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
Here is a list of bone char free vegan sugar companies
posted by aniola at 1:30 PM on April 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
I don't think you can predictably test with a meat-tastic meal at the end. (anecdote) I was vegan for about 10 months, and vegetarian for more than a year before that. My first non-vegan meal was partaking in a group sushi boat. This was mostly nigiri (I.e. slab of fish on a bed of rice) with very few rolls. It was my first time ever having non-roll sushi. The next day my lunch was a couple of double doubles from In an Out.
I had no digestive issues at all.
posted by nobeagle at 2:00 PM on April 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
I had no digestive issues at all.
posted by nobeagle at 2:00 PM on April 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
Suggest (but don't require) he take pictures of the things he eats. It'd be fun to hear updates from him about it too.
I'm not saying you should decide how strict a vegan he should be, but I'd still make sure he's at least aware of some of the sneakier animal products: gelatin, Red #40, lecithin*, and isinglass (which is used to clarify some beers).
* soy lecithin obviously doesn't count
posted by aubilenon at 2:00 PM on April 28, 2015
I'm not saying you should decide how strict a vegan he should be, but I'd still make sure he's at least aware of some of the sneakier animal products: gelatin, Red #40, lecithin*, and isinglass (which is used to clarify some beers).
* soy lecithin obviously doesn't count
posted by aubilenon at 2:00 PM on April 28, 2015
There's no way to do this, I don't think, unless both you and he are willing to undergo a crash course on which food additives originate from animal ingredients or use them in their processing. One of the Red #4 / Red #5s is or was boiled beetle shells. Etc.
posted by salvia at 3:53 PM on April 28, 2015
posted by salvia at 3:53 PM on April 28, 2015
FWIW, not all vegans, even ones who are "strict" about avoiding fish, meat, eggs, and dairy, totally eschew honey, or even place a high priority on scrupulously avoiding things like bone char. For fairness you should really be on the same page about this ahead of time. Also, Red #40 is not cochineal and is not bug-derived.
Unfortunately, I am pretty sure there is no reasonably definitive test for diet, just a bunch of things that sort of correlate with certain dietary parameters (and are probably confounded with things like fiber intake). For example, vegans do seem to (on average!) generate less TMAO after a red meat challenge than non-vegans, but so do vegetarians, it's not clear whether that always happens, and anyway it's not something you can really test with consumer equipment. If there were a good test for diet, I can tell you that they'd use it all the time in my field of research! A food diary, possibly a visual one, is probably your best bet.
posted by en forme de poire at 4:22 PM on April 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
Unfortunately, I am pretty sure there is no reasonably definitive test for diet, just a bunch of things that sort of correlate with certain dietary parameters (and are probably confounded with things like fiber intake). For example, vegans do seem to (on average!) generate less TMAO after a red meat challenge than non-vegans, but so do vegetarians, it's not clear whether that always happens, and anyway it's not something you can really test with consumer equipment. If there were a good test for diet, I can tell you that they'd use it all the time in my field of research! A food diary, possibly a visual one, is probably your best bet.
posted by en forme de poire at 4:22 PM on April 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
Um....in my failed experiences at trying to provide vegan potluck food, it can be very easy to screw up veganism if you are not a diehard practicing vegan. There are a LOT of sekrit code words on products that translate into "this had something to do with an animal somewhere" that your dude may not know or get right even if he's trying his hardest. Unless you can scrutinize EVERY product label he consumes, and the both of you learn all of the sekrit code words, this is going to be a bitch at BEST to prove.
About the only way I can think of getting this ensured is if your brother-in-law is your BIL because he's married to your sister. If you can talk your sister into being Vegan Bet Commissioner to verify everything, you might be able to get someone on site to check this.
posted by jenfullmoon at 5:39 PM on April 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
About the only way I can think of getting this ensured is if your brother-in-law is your BIL because he's married to your sister. If you can talk your sister into being Vegan Bet Commissioner to verify everything, you might be able to get someone on site to check this.
posted by jenfullmoon at 5:39 PM on April 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
Specklet, not necessarily, as there are vegan tattoo inks and vegan tattoo parlors; besides, the bet here seems to have been phrased as "eating" vegan.
posted by en forme de poire at 7:59 PM on April 28, 2015
posted by en forme de poire at 7:59 PM on April 28, 2015
I just want to reiterate what En Forme de Poire said - there are a lot of different interpretations of the term 'vegan', as almost everything can be linked to animal products at some stage of its production (wool felt on factory belts, other things made on the same equipment, person who owns the business keeps hens as a hobby, etc). Additionally, honey is kind of an edge case because it involves far less intervention than most animal husbandry, plus it is less harmful to the insects involved than non-organic arable farming. And organic farming involves animal manure unless the farm is designated veganic which....
All vegans pick a pragmatic point at which to draw the line. Some are OK with honey, others avoid it. Some are more bothered than others by stuff that's cooked on the same equipment or in the same oils as non-vegan food. But most pick a point that does not involve excessive amounts of stress, and generally this means not worrying about bone char or miniscule amounts of trace ingredients, but focusing instead on meat, milk, eggs, fish, gelatine, maybe honey. Unless people care about being a Level Five Vegan, this is generally enough, so I suggest you allow it to be enough for your bet as well.
posted by Acheman at 6:36 AM on April 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
All vegans pick a pragmatic point at which to draw the line. Some are OK with honey, others avoid it. Some are more bothered than others by stuff that's cooked on the same equipment or in the same oils as non-vegan food. But most pick a point that does not involve excessive amounts of stress, and generally this means not worrying about bone char or miniscule amounts of trace ingredients, but focusing instead on meat, milk, eggs, fish, gelatine, maybe honey. Unless people care about being a Level Five Vegan, this is generally enough, so I suggest you allow it to be enough for your bet as well.
posted by Acheman at 6:36 AM on April 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
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posted by LobsterMitten at 12:04 PM on April 28, 2015 [6 favorites]