How to evaluate prospective tenants?
March 30, 2015 4:59 PM Subscribe
I own an apartment in New York City, which I need to rent out. I found tenants who seem to be lovely people, but I'm struggling to decide whether or not to be concerned about their finances.
They're both self employed and paying comparable rent now, though not living together. They're moving in together. They seem like genuinely nice people. I like them. I realize that probably isn't relevant, but there it is.
I haven't run a credit check. I plan to, though I'm not even sure how I'd evaluate the information. I don't have any way to gauge what should be cause for alarm.
One of them filled out the application claiming a comfortable and reasonable income but included tax returns with an adjusted gross income that is waaaay below that, in part because of a lot of self employment deductions, including a home office. I'm open to the possibility that she can pay the rent, but her AGI is less than 1/10th of the income she put in the form. Her total business receipts are consistent with the income she put down but that doesn't take into account the expense of running a business. No debts, though.
The other has 1099s documenting a comfortable and reasonable income but has not actually filed income taxes in some years. I'm somewhat concerned that he is in for a *very* nasty shock when he does file or get audited if he hasn't paid any estimated taxes. He also has non-trivial credit card debt (about 30% of his annual net income).
I have contact information for their current landlords and permission to call and confirm that they're reliable tenants. My instincts (which usually serve me well) say they're solid people. But their finances seem kind of sketchy to me.
Another factor: the apartment has more bedrooms than they really need. They both live with roommates now, there's no reason they can't bring in a roommate if they find the rent unmanageable (it is about 20% higher than what they're paying now).
If their credit report indicates that they keep up with payments and didn't give me bad information about their debts, and the pay their rent now, should I be concerned? Or should I just let it go?
They're both self employed and paying comparable rent now, though not living together. They're moving in together. They seem like genuinely nice people. I like them. I realize that probably isn't relevant, but there it is.
I haven't run a credit check. I plan to, though I'm not even sure how I'd evaluate the information. I don't have any way to gauge what should be cause for alarm.
One of them filled out the application claiming a comfortable and reasonable income but included tax returns with an adjusted gross income that is waaaay below that, in part because of a lot of self employment deductions, including a home office. I'm open to the possibility that she can pay the rent, but her AGI is less than 1/10th of the income she put in the form. Her total business receipts are consistent with the income she put down but that doesn't take into account the expense of running a business. No debts, though.
The other has 1099s documenting a comfortable and reasonable income but has not actually filed income taxes in some years. I'm somewhat concerned that he is in for a *very* nasty shock when he does file or get audited if he hasn't paid any estimated taxes. He also has non-trivial credit card debt (about 30% of his annual net income).
I have contact information for their current landlords and permission to call and confirm that they're reliable tenants. My instincts (which usually serve me well) say they're solid people. But their finances seem kind of sketchy to me.
Another factor: the apartment has more bedrooms than they really need. They both live with roommates now, there's no reason they can't bring in a roommate if they find the rent unmanageable (it is about 20% higher than what they're paying now).
If their credit report indicates that they keep up with payments and didn't give me bad information about their debts, and the pay their rent now, should I be concerned? Or should I just let it go?
They seem like genuinely nice people. I like them. I realize that probably isn't relevant, but there it is.
I think it's very relevant. You like them, so you want to find a way to be comfortable with renting them the apartment.
But from what you're saying here, it sounds like you're not actually comfortable with it. I'd be concerned too -- not paying your taxes is a pretty big indicator that someone isn't keeping track of their financial health. You're absolutely right that it will be a huge hit once the IRS takes interest. I also think you're right to be concerned about the credit card debt and the fact that they put down gross receipts from a business as income.
I dunno. If you're renting out a place in NYC, I can't imagine you'd have a hard time finding other prospective tenants, right?
posted by pie ninja at 5:26 PM on March 30, 2015 [3 favorites]
I think it's very relevant. You like them, so you want to find a way to be comfortable with renting them the apartment.
But from what you're saying here, it sounds like you're not actually comfortable with it. I'd be concerned too -- not paying your taxes is a pretty big indicator that someone isn't keeping track of their financial health. You're absolutely right that it will be a huge hit once the IRS takes interest. I also think you're right to be concerned about the credit card debt and the fact that they put down gross receipts from a business as income.
I dunno. If you're renting out a place in NYC, I can't imagine you'd have a hard time finding other prospective tenants, right?
posted by pie ninja at 5:26 PM on March 30, 2015 [3 favorites]
but has not actually filed income taxes in some years
I'd be concerned about the morals of someone who didn't think it was important to pay income tax, since they may also think it's not worthwhile to pay rent.
posted by kinetic at 5:31 PM on March 30, 2015 [21 favorites]
I'd be concerned about the morals of someone who didn't think it was important to pay income tax, since they may also think it's not worthwhile to pay rent.
posted by kinetic at 5:31 PM on March 30, 2015 [21 favorites]
Seconding pie ninja. You might like them, but probably not enough to spot them rent when they run into trouble, which you will have to do for months if that comes up, because eviction takes a long time in most states.
You'll have better peace of mind (and thus, an easier life) if you just wait for an applicant that can safely clear the rent without any red flags that you have to Ask MetaFilter about. Good rule of thumb: The rent is no more than 1/3 of their (indisputable) income.
posted by ignignokt at 5:33 PM on March 30, 2015 [2 favorites]
You'll have better peace of mind (and thus, an easier life) if you just wait for an applicant that can safely clear the rent without any red flags that you have to Ask MetaFilter about. Good rule of thumb: The rent is no more than 1/3 of their (indisputable) income.
posted by ignignokt at 5:33 PM on March 30, 2015 [2 favorites]
Do not rent to these people who are probably very nice people who will cause some kind of pain in the ass as tenants because they are both at the best intensely weird about money and at the worst intensely dishonest.
posted by jeather at 5:38 PM on March 30, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by jeather at 5:38 PM on March 30, 2015 [8 favorites]
Not just morality of not filing taxes, but the keeping-it-togetherness indication is not promising. Also high credit card debt? This sounds like a problem.
posted by amtho at 5:47 PM on March 30, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by amtho at 5:47 PM on March 30, 2015 [4 favorites]
In a market like NYC there is absolutely no point in ever renting to anyone other than someone who exceeds all your financial expectations. You also don't want to rent to any couple in which either party would be unable to pay the rent in full on their own in case of breakup. These people don't seem to fill either requirement.
posted by poffin boffin at 5:47 PM on March 30, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by poffin boffin at 5:47 PM on March 30, 2015 [5 favorites]
I don't have any way to gauge what should be cause for alarm.
Missed this on the first read-through. You'd be looking for the same thing that credit bureaus are looking for. You want to see if they have had any debts go into collections, or how long they went unpaid for, or if there were any judgments against them. You want to see how long they've had a good credit history. You want to see how many sources of debt they have; a single card with a high balance vs 10 different cards all with moderate balances is a big difference.
You want to know if either of them ever defaulted on child support payments or alimony payments, if wages have ever been garnished, if they've declared bankruptcy recently.
Hopefully someone who is an actual residential property landlord will join the discussion with lived experience information, as I'm sure I'm missing something, maybe many somethings, on my admittedly halfassed list, having only ever been on the renter side of the equation.
posted by poffin boffin at 5:53 PM on March 30, 2015 [2 favorites]
Missed this on the first read-through. You'd be looking for the same thing that credit bureaus are looking for. You want to see if they have had any debts go into collections, or how long they went unpaid for, or if there were any judgments against them. You want to see how long they've had a good credit history. You want to see how many sources of debt they have; a single card with a high balance vs 10 different cards all with moderate balances is a big difference.
You want to know if either of them ever defaulted on child support payments or alimony payments, if wages have ever been garnished, if they've declared bankruptcy recently.
Hopefully someone who is an actual residential property landlord will join the discussion with lived experience information, as I'm sure I'm missing something, maybe many somethings, on my admittedly halfassed list, having only ever been on the renter side of the equation.
posted by poffin boffin at 5:53 PM on March 30, 2015 [2 favorites]
Actual (very) small time residential landlord. If there is more than one person, they are both on the lease. DO NOT let roommate switching get you in a position where there is anyone in there who isn't on the lease, because sure as sure, that will be the person that wants to stay when everyone else bails. Don't ask how I know this.
posted by rudd135 at 5:58 PM on March 30, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by rudd135 at 5:58 PM on March 30, 2015 [4 favorites]
I should add, before I became a very small time landlord, I was a renter. I left an apartment, leaving my nice but alcoholic roommate on his own. He ended up getting behind on rent, believe it or not.
At this point the landlord calls me and tells me I need to pay up or I am going to court. He had me by rights.
In my mind, the same thing would apply to a married couple - if they get divorced, you could be up a creek.
posted by rudd135 at 6:01 PM on March 30, 2015
At this point the landlord calls me and tells me I need to pay up or I am going to court. He had me by rights.
In my mind, the same thing would apply to a married couple - if they get divorced, you could be up a creek.
posted by rudd135 at 6:01 PM on March 30, 2015
Response by poster: This is super helpful, all.
They're a couple. They've been dating for several years and I get the impression that she's committed to helping him get his finances in order. And I don't think he neglected his taxes out of dishonesty, I think he was just overwhelmed by it.
They both live with roommates now, I don't think it would be hard for them to pull in roommates if they need them to pay the rent. They're a couple and the apartment has three bedrooms.
I'm extra challenged because we own a co-op and the approval process, which hasn't even formally started yet (I'm going through their paperwork before I send it to my management company) takes 4-6 weeks. We've already rented an apartment in our new town so we're basically bleeding money until we get this resolved and I've lost a week because I stopped showing it when they gave me their application.
Mostly, though, I don't want to screw them over unnecessarily by telling them that, no, they don't have a new apartment yet.
posted by amandabee at 6:49 PM on March 30, 2015
They're a couple. They've been dating for several years and I get the impression that she's committed to helping him get his finances in order. And I don't think he neglected his taxes out of dishonesty, I think he was just overwhelmed by it.
They both live with roommates now, I don't think it would be hard for them to pull in roommates if they need them to pay the rent. They're a couple and the apartment has three bedrooms.
I'm extra challenged because we own a co-op and the approval process, which hasn't even formally started yet (I'm going through their paperwork before I send it to my management company) takes 4-6 weeks. We've already rented an apartment in our new town so we're basically bleeding money until we get this resolved and I've lost a week because I stopped showing it when they gave me their application.
Mostly, though, I don't want to screw them over unnecessarily by telling them that, no, they don't have a new apartment yet.
posted by amandabee at 6:49 PM on March 30, 2015
IALL. The finances strike me as major red flags (including the weirdness in their reporting). Niceness is...niceness, but even if the IRS is kind and helpful and sets up a repayment plan for him, their income and outgo will suffer some serious readjustments.
posted by thomas j wise at 6:57 PM on March 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by thomas j wise at 6:57 PM on March 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
I'm open to the possibility that she can pay the rent, but her AGI is less than 1/10th of the income she put in the form. Her total business receipts are consistent with the income she put down but that doesn't take into account the expense of running a business. No debts, though.
I don't think AGI is the datapoint you should be looking at, especially since that has half the self-employment tax subtracted from it already, as well as things like IRA contributions.
I also think your mental calculation should definitely add back into her income at least anything she's expensed on schedule C for her home office, since the equivalent amount she expenses moving forward, if you end up renting to them, would literally be money paid to you (and a portion of utilities, etc., which they'd be paying for anyway).
You don't mention what line of work they're in. If they're doing something where they carry an inventory and/or pay out to subcontractors, then gross receipts is definitely not a good indicator, but if they're, say, freelance graphic designers, then that gross number is probably not too far off from being comparable to the number you'd see for someone earning the same amount as a W2 employee.
(That said, she probably should have indicated this all to you when she wrote down the larger number, to keep from seeming like she was trying to get one by you.)
On preview, I see you have to get them approved by the coop board. If you are inclined to rent to them, maybe you should try to get the quick opinion of a board member as to whether they're likely to be rejected on their income documentation alone? It would be a shame to lose even more time going through that process only to have the decision end up not being in your hands.
posted by nobody at 6:59 PM on March 30, 2015 [2 favorites]
I don't think AGI is the datapoint you should be looking at, especially since that has half the self-employment tax subtracted from it already, as well as things like IRA contributions.
I also think your mental calculation should definitely add back into her income at least anything she's expensed on schedule C for her home office, since the equivalent amount she expenses moving forward, if you end up renting to them, would literally be money paid to you (and a portion of utilities, etc., which they'd be paying for anyway).
You don't mention what line of work they're in. If they're doing something where they carry an inventory and/or pay out to subcontractors, then gross receipts is definitely not a good indicator, but if they're, say, freelance graphic designers, then that gross number is probably not too far off from being comparable to the number you'd see for someone earning the same amount as a W2 employee.
(That said, she probably should have indicated this all to you when she wrote down the larger number, to keep from seeming like she was trying to get one by you.)
On preview, I see you have to get them approved by the coop board. If you are inclined to rent to them, maybe you should try to get the quick opinion of a board member as to whether they're likely to be rejected on their income documentation alone? It would be a shame to lose even more time going through that process only to have the decision end up not being in your hands.
posted by nobody at 6:59 PM on March 30, 2015 [2 favorites]
Niceness doesn't pay rent. Don't be taken in by any sob story they may lay at your feet re: taxes. If this guy gets too overwhelmed to pay his taxes, how much more money will you be bleeding when they get too overwhelmed to pay their rent?
Pass. Hold out for more qualified candidates.
posted by Hermione Granger at 7:19 PM on March 30, 2015 [3 favorites]
Pass. Hold out for more qualified candidates.
posted by Hermione Granger at 7:19 PM on March 30, 2015 [3 favorites]
I'm self-employed. I've lived in a privately owned condo for 7 years now and haven't once missed a payment or bounced a check. I've taken impeccable care of this place and love living here. You're always taking a chance when it comes to renting to someone, there are no guarantees. But obviously checking their credit is a good idea, and asking for proof of income and/or bank statements is a necessity. I've always been asked for my 1099 (which presents very much like a W-2) as proof of income.
posted by Avosunspin at 7:38 PM on March 30, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Avosunspin at 7:38 PM on March 30, 2015 [2 favorites]
Best answer: Submit them to the co-op approval board. See what happens.
In the meantime, keep showing the unit, collect applications, make sure folks know they are back-up applicants & what financial info the co-op board will want from them. Do NOT collect an application fee until/unless the other folks fall through. Date and number your apps. Call everyone and tell them when the unit is rented so people aren't counting on you.
I think getting 3 back-up apps will be enough.
Catching up on taxes is pretty easy, first step is to call the IRS. RUN THE CURRENT APPLICANTS CREDIT ASAP!!
The rule of thumb we used - medical debt was ignored, credit card debt and school loans were strongly considered, with high school loans weighted less negatively than credit card debt.
#1 - How is their payment history on debts? Good? Then they will probably be good tenants!
Lots of missed payments = Do Not Rent To Them.
Take the credit reports to your bank, or look at a YouTube video to understand how to read a credit check. It's not that hard to understand. Good luck!!
posted by jbenben at 7:39 PM on March 30, 2015 [4 favorites]
In the meantime, keep showing the unit, collect applications, make sure folks know they are back-up applicants & what financial info the co-op board will want from them. Do NOT collect an application fee until/unless the other folks fall through. Date and number your apps. Call everyone and tell them when the unit is rented so people aren't counting on you.
I think getting 3 back-up apps will be enough.
Catching up on taxes is pretty easy, first step is to call the IRS. RUN THE CURRENT APPLICANTS CREDIT ASAP!!
The rule of thumb we used - medical debt was ignored, credit card debt and school loans were strongly considered, with high school loans weighted less negatively than credit card debt.
#1 - How is their payment history on debts? Good? Then they will probably be good tenants!
Lots of missed payments = Do Not Rent To Them.
Take the credit reports to your bank, or look at a YouTube video to understand how to read a credit check. It's not that hard to understand. Good luck!!
posted by jbenben at 7:39 PM on March 30, 2015 [4 favorites]
These people have tons of red flags. If you want to rent to them, ask for a three months deposit up front.
You should also find out how to look up criminal records. In my jurisdiction found out the following from local court records for prospective or current tenants: behind on child support, repossessed truck, had stolen a car during a psychotic episode. It was pretty easy to figure out how to access.
posted by bq at 7:53 PM on March 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
You should also find out how to look up criminal records. In my jurisdiction found out the following from local court records for prospective or current tenants: behind on child support, repossessed truck, had stolen a car during a psychotic episode. It was pretty easy to figure out how to access.
posted by bq at 7:53 PM on March 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
If you really like them, you're just going to feel worse when you have to put your foot down about the rent.
posted by Metroid Baby at 7:56 PM on March 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Metroid Baby at 7:56 PM on March 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
As a landlord (in DC) and a renter (in NYC), I implore you to run a credit check, and continue to screen potential tenants. It's actually pretty easy to understand a credit check. Most places break them down for you in a clear way.
Managing issues remotely (it sounds like you are moving out of town) can be a HUGE headache if you aren't local, and you want to ensure you have tenants who are going to be fairly hassle-free. And you don't want to upset other owners in your co-op by renting to tenants who cause problems. Also, if they need co-op approval, how flexible is your board? It sounds like there might be some red flags and you should see if the board foresees any issues with the couple getting approval.
Nice people are important, but reliability trumps all. I've had tenants with less than perfect credit scores, but a great record of on-time rent payment. They knew that no matter what, rent had to be paid, and they showed it with their history. I also had a tenant with perfect credit, perfect payment history and no debt, and I made the mistake of approving a pet. She was great with money, but poor with taking care of her dog. The dog ate massive holes in my flooring from anxiety and neglect. You live and learn.
I'd personally be concerned about the lack of tax filing from the one individual, mostly because it shows some real bad judgement. The government ALWAYS catches up with you.
I don't know what neighborhood you are in, but more than likely, there are plenty of qualified potential tenants for you if this doesn't work out.
Best of luck!
posted by carmenghia at 8:24 PM on March 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
Managing issues remotely (it sounds like you are moving out of town) can be a HUGE headache if you aren't local, and you want to ensure you have tenants who are going to be fairly hassle-free. And you don't want to upset other owners in your co-op by renting to tenants who cause problems. Also, if they need co-op approval, how flexible is your board? It sounds like there might be some red flags and you should see if the board foresees any issues with the couple getting approval.
Nice people are important, but reliability trumps all. I've had tenants with less than perfect credit scores, but a great record of on-time rent payment. They knew that no matter what, rent had to be paid, and they showed it with their history. I also had a tenant with perfect credit, perfect payment history and no debt, and I made the mistake of approving a pet. She was great with money, but poor with taking care of her dog. The dog ate massive holes in my flooring from anxiety and neglect. You live and learn.
I'd personally be concerned about the lack of tax filing from the one individual, mostly because it shows some real bad judgement. The government ALWAYS catches up with you.
I don't know what neighborhood you are in, but more than likely, there are plenty of qualified potential tenants for you if this doesn't work out.
Best of luck!
posted by carmenghia at 8:24 PM on March 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
Absolutely do not base a rental agreement on how nice you think a person is. It's meaningless when it comes to whether a person will pay their rent. I've found past landlords (at least two previous to their last one) are really indicative of the kind of tenant they'll be, as was noted upstream. So call those previous landlords. Here's what I've found makes a good tenant:
They don't try to withhold any information. They don't "forget" to fill in a past landlord's number so you have to keep asking them for it. Nope nope nope. Good tenants are actually happy to give you whatever documents/info you want and often have it ready to hand over. Why? Because they have NOTHING TO HIDE. Because deep down they're kind of proud of it.
I'm going to disagree about taxes or even bad financial history. This isn't necessarily indicative of someone who won't pay the rent. Did that person pay estimated taxes but just didn't file the return, ie was he just avoiding all the paperwork? He's probably okay. Get proof though that he did pay those taxes. Did the person who filed for bankruptcy/had bad credit show a history of on time payments on their credit report for five years afterwards? She's probably okay. I'm renting now to someone who filed bankruptcy years ago and she's a great tenant.
If you yourself make an excellent tenant then rent to someone who reminds you of yourself, who seems to possess the same qualities that make you a great tenant. If you're a terrible tenant then find a person who kinda reminds you of that irritating kid in class who couldn't wait to brownose the teacher. They make great tenants. Of course, follow this diagnosis with credit checks and phone calls.
posted by lillian.elmtree at 11:18 PM on March 30, 2015
They don't try to withhold any information. They don't "forget" to fill in a past landlord's number so you have to keep asking them for it. Nope nope nope. Good tenants are actually happy to give you whatever documents/info you want and often have it ready to hand over. Why? Because they have NOTHING TO HIDE. Because deep down they're kind of proud of it.
I'm going to disagree about taxes or even bad financial history. This isn't necessarily indicative of someone who won't pay the rent. Did that person pay estimated taxes but just didn't file the return, ie was he just avoiding all the paperwork? He's probably okay. Get proof though that he did pay those taxes. Did the person who filed for bankruptcy/had bad credit show a history of on time payments on their credit report for five years afterwards? She's probably okay. I'm renting now to someone who filed bankruptcy years ago and she's a great tenant.
If you yourself make an excellent tenant then rent to someone who reminds you of yourself, who seems to possess the same qualities that make you a great tenant. If you're a terrible tenant then find a person who kinda reminds you of that irritating kid in class who couldn't wait to brownose the teacher. They make great tenants. Of course, follow this diagnosis with credit checks and phone calls.
posted by lillian.elmtree at 11:18 PM on March 30, 2015
Being self-employed or having credit card debt wouldn't bother me so much, but not filing taxes? That's just a very basic thing about being an adult and functioning in society. Someone who is "too overwhelmed" or too incompetent to either file taxes themselves or hire an accountant if they can't figure it out feels to me like someone who will suddenly become too overwhelmed to pay their rent.
Look, I've had some years where my taxes were pretty complicated because of moving states, weird income, etc. You deal with it.
If you were in a super difficult market or there was something inherently undesirable about your property, I'd say maybe you take the risk. But given your location and the fact that you didn't mention anything that would deter potential renters, I think you should pass on this and go for more of a sure thing. Another option is to research how long it takes to evict people for non-payment of rent (my sense is that this varies by location, but tends to be a LONG time in New York), and then to ask them for a deposit up front that covers that many months. Otherwise, YOU are potentially on the hook for those months...can you afford that??
posted by rainbowbrite at 7:40 AM on March 31, 2015 [1 favorite]
Look, I've had some years where my taxes were pretty complicated because of moving states, weird income, etc. You deal with it.
If you were in a super difficult market or there was something inherently undesirable about your property, I'd say maybe you take the risk. But given your location and the fact that you didn't mention anything that would deter potential renters, I think you should pass on this and go for more of a sure thing. Another option is to research how long it takes to evict people for non-payment of rent (my sense is that this varies by location, but tends to be a LONG time in New York), and then to ask them for a deposit up front that covers that many months. Otherwise, YOU are potentially on the hook for those months...can you afford that??
posted by rainbowbrite at 7:40 AM on March 31, 2015 [1 favorite]
Best answer: If their credit report indicates that they keep up with payments and didn't give me bad information about their debts, and the pay their rent now, should I be concerned? Or should I just let it go?
I agree with the commenter who recommends putting heavy weight on what their past landlords say about them.
I think, if they get glowing recommendations from the landlords, you should rent to them.
I dislike the mentality that you should "nope" anyone whose financial house is not impeccable. By being open to people who aren't perfect, you are standing out as a humane person in a very harsh and unforgiving rental market.
posted by jayder at 12:16 PM on March 31, 2015 [1 favorite]
I agree with the commenter who recommends putting heavy weight on what their past landlords say about them.
I think, if they get glowing recommendations from the landlords, you should rent to them.
I dislike the mentality that you should "nope" anyone whose financial house is not impeccable. By being open to people who aren't perfect, you are standing out as a humane person in a very harsh and unforgiving rental market.
posted by jayder at 12:16 PM on March 31, 2015 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
I'm a landlord and while it's ok to call the current landlord, the landlord before that is probably a better choice. If the tenant is in fact trouble, the current landlord may depict them as great tenants just to get them out... I call as many references as I get. You should too.
If your gut says they're ok and the credit reports and background check are good, and the refs check out, you're probably safe. In any event they're going to sign a lease for a limited time, and you all are clear on local eviction laws, correct?
posted by Sublimity at 5:24 PM on March 30, 2015 [5 favorites]