Obligation to share the cost of a new fence with neighbours
January 10, 2015 11:47 AM Subscribe
My next door neighbours want to fix a falling down fence prior to the sale of their house. I recognize that civil niceities require me to pay half the cost. There are a few mitigating factors that may justify my refusal to pay. Am I right in refusing?
The fence is along the side of the house that is unviewable from my property, so I've been happy with it's current condition. Over the past decade, presumably they too have been fine with it's condition. I've repaired it every summer over the past ten years to extract another year of utility from it. They never have, in spite of the fact they view it, while I do not. They wish to sell their house, and want repairs to make the property more saleable. Should improvements to the property not be paid for from profits from the sale? To further confuse matters, they've never introduced themselves to me, I literally have no idea who lives there. So in essence I'd be gifting half a fence to strangers. My initial reaction was to refuse to upgrade the fence, but that feels crappy, yet pragmatic. It's been the realtor that has been brokering the fence deal with me. As a proviso, if the new owners knocked on the door and explained they want to fix the fence, I'd be happy to pay my share.
The fence is along the side of the house that is unviewable from my property, so I've been happy with it's current condition. Over the past decade, presumably they too have been fine with it's condition. I've repaired it every summer over the past ten years to extract another year of utility from it. They never have, in spite of the fact they view it, while I do not. They wish to sell their house, and want repairs to make the property more saleable. Should improvements to the property not be paid for from profits from the sale? To further confuse matters, they've never introduced themselves to me, I literally have no idea who lives there. So in essence I'd be gifting half a fence to strangers. My initial reaction was to refuse to upgrade the fence, but that feels crappy, yet pragmatic. It's been the realtor that has been brokering the fence deal with me. As a proviso, if the new owners knocked on the door and explained they want to fix the fence, I'd be happy to pay my share.
http://realestate.findlaw.com/neighbors/fencing-laws-and-your-neighbors-faqs.html
Cursory web search says you are responsible for half the cost if you use the fence. Is the rest of your yard fenced?
You might want to talk to the realtor and have more input rather than less so you can keep the costs down.
posted by MadMadam at 11:53 AM on January 10, 2015
Cursory web search says you are responsible for half the cost if you use the fence. Is the rest of your yard fenced?
You might want to talk to the realtor and have more input rather than less so you can keep the costs down.
posted by MadMadam at 11:53 AM on January 10, 2015
I've repaired it every summer over the past ten years to extract another year of utility from it.If paying for more comprehensive repairs saves you from doing this for the next few summers, then at least that's some benefit to you.
posted by mbrubeck at 11:55 AM on January 10, 2015 [4 favorites]
Even if it turns out that you're responsible for half the cost, you could always try negotiating with the realtor and offering, say, 25% or 1/3 instead of half.
posted by Slinga at 11:59 AM on January 10, 2015
posted by Slinga at 11:59 AM on January 10, 2015
Or, since you'll have to live with it, YOU can ask them to pay YOU, and you can pick whatever you like.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 12:18 PM on January 10, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 12:18 PM on January 10, 2015 [4 favorites]
I'm confused by this. Is the fence on your property or theirs?
Tell the real estate agent to sod off if the fence is on their property. Why should you pay for their fence upgrade??
If the fence is on your property and you are fine with how it looks and performs, tell them "No."
They can plant shrubs or similar in front of the fence if it doesn't look nice on their side.
If the fence is yours, and accepting 1/2 the cost of upgrading the fence appeals to you, and you don't mind, then make them give you a check before any supplies are purchased.
When you talk about the sale of the house paying for this expense, it seems clear the fence is on their property.
If the fence is on their property, I agree you should present the real estate agent and/or the neighbor with an invoice detailing your labor and cost of supplies for the past ten years. That would be funny!
posted by jbenben at 12:21 PM on January 10, 2015 [9 favorites]
Tell the real estate agent to sod off if the fence is on their property. Why should you pay for their fence upgrade??
If the fence is on your property and you are fine with how it looks and performs, tell them "No."
They can plant shrubs or similar in front of the fence if it doesn't look nice on their side.
If the fence is yours, and accepting 1/2 the cost of upgrading the fence appeals to you, and you don't mind, then make them give you a check before any supplies are purchased.
When you talk about the sale of the house paying for this expense, it seems clear the fence is on their property.
If the fence is on their property, I agree you should present the real estate agent and/or the neighbor with an invoice detailing your labor and cost of supplies for the past ten years. That would be funny!
posted by jbenben at 12:21 PM on January 10, 2015 [9 favorites]
I would ask the realtor to contribute from their commission. If it is your fence and you don't want to pay to fix it, don't. If it it the neighbor's fence let them fix it.
posted by 724A at 12:23 PM on January 10, 2015
posted by 724A at 12:23 PM on January 10, 2015
To be fair, the neighbors might not know the fence is theirs if you have been fixing it all of these years.
I'm not telling you to be mean about it, either. The real estate agent approaching you about this annoys me, tho. I think they are using you, and that's kinda rude of them. Obviously, don't start a war over it.
posted by jbenben at 12:24 PM on January 10, 2015 [3 favorites]
I'm not telling you to be mean about it, either. The real estate agent approaching you about this annoys me, tho. I think they are using you, and that's kinda rude of them. Obviously, don't start a war over it.
posted by jbenben at 12:24 PM on January 10, 2015 [3 favorites]
In places where I live you are legally required to pay for half of the cost. If you are unwilling to pay for your share of the actual fence installed you are required to contribute half the cost of a chain link fence. If the neighbors want a nicer fence they pay the difference. Rules like this are not uncommon and are enforced by the city. I would check and see what you are actually on the hook for, as you may not have any say in the matter.
posted by saradarlin at 12:28 PM on January 10, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by saradarlin at 12:28 PM on January 10, 2015 [3 favorites]
If the fence is on their property, you have no obligation to do anything about it. My wife and I faced a similar situation when we moved into our current house; one of our neighbors told us she and the previous owners had shared the costs of maintaining a fence that was between the houses but on her property. We politely told her we were sorry but we weren't part of the (alleged) pact and couldn't afford to take up that burden. She hasn't bothered us about it since then (it's been six or seven years).
posted by languagehat at 12:37 PM on January 10, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by languagehat at 12:37 PM on January 10, 2015 [4 favorites]
If the fence separates you two properties I think you are obligated for half of the repairs. But you say you have been maintaining the fence on you own for several years. So you might politely point that out and suggest that this one is on your neighbor.
That is if the repairs and upkeep you have done have been somewhat substantial: repainting, replanting posts, replacing rotten boards. If you've only been whacking in an occasional nail then split the costs from here out.
posted by SLC Mom at 12:44 PM on January 10, 2015
That is if the repairs and upkeep you have done have been somewhat substantial: repainting, replanting posts, replacing rotten boards. If you've only been whacking in an occasional nail then split the costs from here out.
posted by SLC Mom at 12:44 PM on January 10, 2015
Depends where you live. The standard where I am is that the right hand fence it's your neighbour's and the left hand one is your responsibility..
posted by KateViolet at 12:50 PM on January 10, 2015
posted by KateViolet at 12:50 PM on January 10, 2015
Dear Realtor:
I have invested quite a bit of time and money over the last ten years repairing the fence, while your customers have never contributed. I have never requested at any time that they share in the cost. An itemized list of my expenses can be provided if necessary.
As I have certainly done more than my share of maintenance on the fence, I am not interested in contributing half the cost of replacement at this time. I'm sure this is understandable to you and your customers.
Sincerely,
Keith
(Realtor probably doesn't know this, and is looking to mitigate the home-owners' expenses while maximizing the commission at time of sale. Not your problem.)
posted by raisingsand at 12:55 PM on January 10, 2015 [14 favorites]
I have invested quite a bit of time and money over the last ten years repairing the fence, while your customers have never contributed. I have never requested at any time that they share in the cost. An itemized list of my expenses can be provided if necessary.
As I have certainly done more than my share of maintenance on the fence, I am not interested in contributing half the cost of replacement at this time. I'm sure this is understandable to you and your customers.
Sincerely,
Keith
(Realtor probably doesn't know this, and is looking to mitigate the home-owners' expenses while maximizing the commission at time of sale. Not your problem.)
posted by raisingsand at 12:55 PM on January 10, 2015 [14 favorites]
I don't think you have a social obligation here, but I would try to find out what your legal obligation is (if any).
posted by J. Wilson at 1:12 PM on January 10, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by J. Wilson at 1:12 PM on January 10, 2015 [4 favorites]
About 6 months ago I had a section of fence fall down, and ended up coordinating the replacement with 4 neighbors. It took some effort on my part, so I can't fault your neighbors for foisting this off onto the realtor.
Whether or not you are legally obligated to contribute varies by state, city, and HOA rules. The fact that you state that you made repairs to the fence in the past to "extract utility" from it probably is enough to legally bind you (although IANAL etc).
On the other hand - does this fence join with other fences that surround your yard? If not - ie, the fence only surrounds your neighbors - then you might have more of an argument that it's not your responsibility.
To get back to my recent experience, since I think it is salient: I felt like a jerk going to my neighbors and telling them, out of the blue and through no fault of theirs, that there was this fence issue and it would cost some money and would they mind paying half? My understanding of my local law was that they were obligated to pay, but I decided I'd pay for it all myself if anyone balked.
But everyone was great about it: the fence was old and in obvious need of repair. I had secured a contractor who was known for doing good work at a reasonable cost - I think everyone thought of it as an opportunity to take care of an inevitable issue with minimal cost and hassle.
Also, to be blunt, when I researched it on the web, the prevailing sentiment is that unless you are financially strapped, not chipping in on a shared fence is pretty much a huge dick move. For instance, one of my neighbors was an elderly woman who lived alone, I didn't even ask her to pay - her share was about $100, I figured I could eat that cost, but also I figured I should tell her what was going on and make sure she was okay with guys replacing part of her fence - she insisted on paying her part. For her it was a matter of self-respect.
In the end, my advice would be that if you're not undergoing financial hardship, you should pony up for half the cost. Not only are you an upstanding neighbor, but also it gives you some input into how the work is done. And you'll want to look over the work bid and make sure it's reasonable before you agree.
Given that the neighbors want to move, you can probably refuse to pay and probably nothing would happen to you. Although some HOAs (mine, for one, I was surprised to learn) will get involved if asked, and send out bills to the involved parties. But if it was me, I'd just pay my share on the principle that this is part of how decent people interact with each other.
posted by doctor tough love at 1:45 PM on January 10, 2015
Whether or not you are legally obligated to contribute varies by state, city, and HOA rules. The fact that you state that you made repairs to the fence in the past to "extract utility" from it probably is enough to legally bind you (although IANAL etc).
On the other hand - does this fence join with other fences that surround your yard? If not - ie, the fence only surrounds your neighbors - then you might have more of an argument that it's not your responsibility.
To get back to my recent experience, since I think it is salient: I felt like a jerk going to my neighbors and telling them, out of the blue and through no fault of theirs, that there was this fence issue and it would cost some money and would they mind paying half? My understanding of my local law was that they were obligated to pay, but I decided I'd pay for it all myself if anyone balked.
But everyone was great about it: the fence was old and in obvious need of repair. I had secured a contractor who was known for doing good work at a reasonable cost - I think everyone thought of it as an opportunity to take care of an inevitable issue with minimal cost and hassle.
Also, to be blunt, when I researched it on the web, the prevailing sentiment is that unless you are financially strapped, not chipping in on a shared fence is pretty much a huge dick move. For instance, one of my neighbors was an elderly woman who lived alone, I didn't even ask her to pay - her share was about $100, I figured I could eat that cost, but also I figured I should tell her what was going on and make sure she was okay with guys replacing part of her fence - she insisted on paying her part. For her it was a matter of self-respect.
In the end, my advice would be that if you're not undergoing financial hardship, you should pony up for half the cost. Not only are you an upstanding neighbor, but also it gives you some input into how the work is done. And you'll want to look over the work bid and make sure it's reasonable before you agree.
Given that the neighbors want to move, you can probably refuse to pay and probably nothing would happen to you. Although some HOAs (mine, for one, I was surprised to learn) will get involved if asked, and send out bills to the involved parties. But if it was me, I'd just pay my share on the principle that this is part of how decent people interact with each other.
posted by doctor tough love at 1:45 PM on January 10, 2015
I'd say, "With respect, I'm going to have to decline. I've been okay with the minor repairs made to the fence over time. If you feel that you need a new fence, you have my blessing to install a comparable one to what is there now that will last longer/be more attractive to a potential purchaser."
posted by inturnaround at 1:46 PM on January 10, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by inturnaround at 1:46 PM on January 10, 2015 [6 favorites]
If you're in Burnaby, the person who chooses to build a fence is responsible for the cost. "The person building the fence is responsible for any costs. There is no law that says you have to have a fence (unless you have a swimming pool), or pay for a fence that someone else wants to build, or share the cost of a fence." ~City of Burnaby FAQ
posted by Margalo Epps at 2:13 PM on January 10, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Margalo Epps at 2:13 PM on January 10, 2015 [1 favorite]
Obviously, find out if you have a legal obligation to chip in.
But I totally disagree that you have any ethical obligation. If the neighbors had come to you and said "hey, we'd really like to fix this fence because it's falling down" or the like, I'd be more sympathetic. But they want it fixed specifically for their home sale. They will reap all of the benefit of the sale, and thus they should pay the cost of this fix that they otherwise almost certainly wouldn't have demanded.
posted by mysterious_stranger at 2:56 PM on January 10, 2015 [2 favorites]
But I totally disagree that you have any ethical obligation. If the neighbors had come to you and said "hey, we'd really like to fix this fence because it's falling down" or the like, I'd be more sympathetic. But they want it fixed specifically for their home sale. They will reap all of the benefit of the sale, and thus they should pay the cost of this fix that they otherwise almost certainly wouldn't have demanded.
posted by mysterious_stranger at 2:56 PM on January 10, 2015 [2 favorites]
The "who's property is the fence on" question matters, but only to some extent. My answer starts at "no" either way.
If theirs: No. It's your fence, and I've been maintaining it out of being neighborly.
If mine: (Default) No. I maintain it when I'm ready and have the budget to maintain it. (But make me an offer)
Being a pre-sale item does make a difference, though. If the neighbors were going to continue to be my neighbors, then of course I would work with them in good faith if they were concerned about it. But in THIS case, they just want to make more money from the sale. It would be diferent if the new owners (who would then continue to be my neighbors) asked.
posted by ctmf at 3:23 PM on January 10, 2015 [1 favorite]
If theirs: No. It's your fence, and I've been maintaining it out of being neighborly.
If mine: (Default) No. I maintain it when I'm ready and have the budget to maintain it. (But make me an offer)
Being a pre-sale item does make a difference, though. If the neighbors were going to continue to be my neighbors, then of course I would work with them in good faith if they were concerned about it. But in THIS case, they just want to make more money from the sale. It would be diferent if the new owners (who would then continue to be my neighbors) asked.
posted by ctmf at 3:23 PM on January 10, 2015 [1 favorite]
I mean, I guess my position is that EVEN IF I'm legally obligated to fix it, I'm not legally obligated to fix it RIGHT NOW, for your convenience and profit. raisingsand's letter ++.
posted by ctmf at 3:28 PM on January 10, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by ctmf at 3:28 PM on January 10, 2015 [4 favorites]
I think you need to pick either the argument that you've been repairing it every year so you've done your share OR the argument that it isn't your fence and you don't care about its improvement. The two arguments together seem kind of contradictory to me. If you don't care at all and get no benefit from it, why have you been repairing it? And if it's on your neighbour's property, it might not even be legal for you to have been repairing it.
posted by lollusc at 5:04 PM on January 10, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by lollusc at 5:04 PM on January 10, 2015 [1 favorite]
Not to give you legal advice but there is not a legal reason in the world to fix the fence or replace it. Yes, you may have worked on it but that was voluntary only, it does not obligate you to anything.
If you want to be a nice neighbor, you could pay whatever your budget allows. Perhaps the realtor would like to pay part of the cost as well since the realtor stands to profit. Otherwise, don't agonize about it.
posted by OhSusannah at 8:45 PM on January 10, 2015
If you want to be a nice neighbor, you could pay whatever your budget allows. Perhaps the realtor would like to pay part of the cost as well since the realtor stands to profit. Otherwise, don't agonize about it.
posted by OhSusannah at 8:45 PM on January 10, 2015
I would generally be, "Aaaaug! Just contribute to the fence and be a decent neighbour!" but as it's been stated, this job is being done on short notice and only to stage the sale.
But I hope you're not picky about the style of new fence you'd prefer. Having input now is better than possibly hating the new one.
posted by bonobothegreat at 8:46 AM on January 11, 2015
But I hope you're not picky about the style of new fence you'd prefer. Having input now is better than possibly hating the new one.
posted by bonobothegreat at 8:46 AM on January 11, 2015
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Get a survey and determine what the real story is. The real estate agent is going to work whatever angle to get the fence repaired to make a quick sale.
Another option is to just tear the damn thing down. Nothing to maintain that way.
Make monetary decisions regarding property based on who owns it, not perception of fair/unfair, etc.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 11:52 AM on January 10, 2015 [19 favorites]