High school senior, loves physics, hates calculus
January 2, 2015 5:38 PM Subscribe
On behalf of family member, who thought he was going to major in engineering (mechanical, aeronautical or civil) but now not sure. He's considering not going to college at all at this point.
He hates his AP Calculus class but doing ok in it, did fine in Math until this year, didn't love it or hate it. Didn't enjoy Biology but loved Physics, partially due to teacher he could relate to. Likes History but not Writing. Doesn't want to do anything computer related, though he doesn't know much about it. He is bright, 34 ACT score. Grades are so so, considering ACT, 4.6 weighted, 2.9 unweighted.
Any ideas for careers in science that don't need higher math?
He hates his AP Calculus class but doing ok in it, did fine in Math until this year, didn't love it or hate it. Didn't enjoy Biology but loved Physics, partially due to teacher he could relate to. Likes History but not Writing. Doesn't want to do anything computer related, though he doesn't know much about it. He is bright, 34 ACT score. Grades are so so, considering ACT, 4.6 weighted, 2.9 unweighted.
Any ideas for careers in science that don't need higher math?
I would be willing to bet that he just has a bad teacher*. See if you can get him into a class at a local college over the summer and see whether it "sticks" better. I didn't think much of calc when I took it in high school or as an undergrad (or as an undergrad again), but it really clicked in my grad program. That was because of a professor who was much better at explaining why this was useful and how we really came up with it, instead of just "derivative of x^3 is 3x^2, because it is, so do the equation and shut up."
* -- "Bad teacher" has little to do with everyone else's test scores; this teacher may be very good at getting people to 5s on the AP Calc exam but not a very good teacher of calculus.
posted by Etrigan at 5:46 PM on January 2, 2015 [13 favorites]
* -- "Bad teacher" has little to do with everyone else's test scores; this teacher may be very good at getting people to 5s on the AP Calc exam but not a very good teacher of calculus.
posted by Etrigan at 5:46 PM on January 2, 2015 [13 favorites]
Also point out that he doesn't have to be sure... he can go take college math, try it out and see how it goes, and change majors after year 1 or 2.
posted by DarlingBri at 5:54 PM on January 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by DarlingBri at 5:54 PM on January 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
Came to say exaclty what Ertigan said. I hated calc until I had a teacher I really clicked with.
posted by colin_l at 5:58 PM on January 2, 2015
posted by colin_l at 5:58 PM on January 2, 2015
What does "hate" mean? There's a lot of reasons a person might hate taking a course.
Does he hate the subject of calculus? What it is about calc that is objectively less enjoyable than other math courses? (I'm assuming since he wants to go into engineering and has always done well in math that he enjoys math. If not, see below.) Is there another sort of math he prefers? Maybe it's worth just living in the notion that you don't always love everything, even if you love things that are a lot like that thing. In college I was an anthropology major, and I adored and did well in it, and even now I still love the field. But Mesoamerican Archaeology just left me completely cold. I just... don't care about Central America that much. Sorry, Central America.
Is it an issue with the teacher? Here's another area where I'm going to say just buckle down and use this as a teachable moment that you don't always see eye to eye with everyone, even if it's a subject you like and something that usually comes easily to you. He's going to go the rest of his educational life having teachers he might not like, and in the working world, he's going to have coworkers and bosses he doesn't like. That's life.
Is it some other one-off issue with the class, like class size, time of day, specific people in the class he doesn't get along with, amount of homework, textbook, some policy the teacher or the school has when it comes to calculus? This amounts to the same -- just struggle through it, it's just a few months. I had this one English class in high school where nothing in the coursework really spoke to me and there were like five people I intensely disliked in it and it was at 8 AM. It feels awfully insignificant 15 years later, and I'm glad I didn't let that put me off a career in a humanities oriented field.
There are two reasons I would urge him to stop and rethink and potentially change plans:
1. He actually dislikes upper level math of the sort he will have to do all the time for the rest of his educational career if he intends to become an engineer. I think often it's easy to get pigeonholed into a certain academic specialty at a very young age. Having an aptitude for something isn't the same as enjoying it, and just because you are good at something doesn't mean you should dedicate your life to it. Much better to realize in high school that you want to study something else than flunk out of college or end up with a useless degree. Lots of people who are good at math and science go on to do totally non-STEM careers.
2. He liked/did well in math up to this point, but he's struggling now for reasons of basic aptitude or being in over his head. I learned the hard way in college that it's better to be told upfront that you don't have what it takes than to muddle through and find yourself up shit creek. There are other majors, other career paths, other passions to pursue than the thing you always thought you would do. It's OK to fail, and it's OK not to become an engineer. In STEM especially, a lot of personal worth is tied into being able to do upper level math. Meanwhile, over here in the real world, there are billions of people who aren't good at calculus and we're all doing just fine. It is OK to change your mind and do something else more in line with your passions and aptitudes. You're not a bad person for majoring in Psychology.
posted by Sara C. at 6:04 PM on January 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
Does he hate the subject of calculus? What it is about calc that is objectively less enjoyable than other math courses? (I'm assuming since he wants to go into engineering and has always done well in math that he enjoys math. If not, see below.) Is there another sort of math he prefers? Maybe it's worth just living in the notion that you don't always love everything, even if you love things that are a lot like that thing. In college I was an anthropology major, and I adored and did well in it, and even now I still love the field. But Mesoamerican Archaeology just left me completely cold. I just... don't care about Central America that much. Sorry, Central America.
Is it an issue with the teacher? Here's another area where I'm going to say just buckle down and use this as a teachable moment that you don't always see eye to eye with everyone, even if it's a subject you like and something that usually comes easily to you. He's going to go the rest of his educational life having teachers he might not like, and in the working world, he's going to have coworkers and bosses he doesn't like. That's life.
Is it some other one-off issue with the class, like class size, time of day, specific people in the class he doesn't get along with, amount of homework, textbook, some policy the teacher or the school has when it comes to calculus? This amounts to the same -- just struggle through it, it's just a few months. I had this one English class in high school where nothing in the coursework really spoke to me and there were like five people I intensely disliked in it and it was at 8 AM. It feels awfully insignificant 15 years later, and I'm glad I didn't let that put me off a career in a humanities oriented field.
There are two reasons I would urge him to stop and rethink and potentially change plans:
1. He actually dislikes upper level math of the sort he will have to do all the time for the rest of his educational career if he intends to become an engineer. I think often it's easy to get pigeonholed into a certain academic specialty at a very young age. Having an aptitude for something isn't the same as enjoying it, and just because you are good at something doesn't mean you should dedicate your life to it. Much better to realize in high school that you want to study something else than flunk out of college or end up with a useless degree. Lots of people who are good at math and science go on to do totally non-STEM careers.
2. He liked/did well in math up to this point, but he's struggling now for reasons of basic aptitude or being in over his head. I learned the hard way in college that it's better to be told upfront that you don't have what it takes than to muddle through and find yourself up shit creek. There are other majors, other career paths, other passions to pursue than the thing you always thought you would do. It's OK to fail, and it's OK not to become an engineer. In STEM especially, a lot of personal worth is tied into being able to do upper level math. Meanwhile, over here in the real world, there are billions of people who aren't good at calculus and we're all doing just fine. It is OK to change your mind and do something else more in line with your passions and aptitudes. You're not a bad person for majoring in Psychology.
posted by Sara C. at 6:04 PM on January 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
I too suspect it's the teacher or specific class; with that said, many/most schools offer engineering technology degrees that are non-calculus-based. This is in contrast to straight engineering which is considered to be calculus-based. The technology degree could be a bit limiting in terms of jobs though.
posted by ftm at 6:07 PM on January 2, 2015
posted by ftm at 6:07 PM on January 2, 2015
Yeah maths becomes totally different once it's in service of a practical subject like engineering or computer science, rather than just for the sake of it.
Hell, physics is basically maths. He probably just hasn't realised this. If he can love physics, he can do fine with maths.
posted by lollusc at 6:10 PM on January 2, 2015
Hell, physics is basically maths. He probably just hasn't realised this. If he can love physics, he can do fine with maths.
posted by lollusc at 6:10 PM on January 2, 2015
If one can afford it, one get an undergraduate education to test the waters and see what turns one on. I majored in English, but I had a career in telecom.
Let the poor kid get through high school, apply to a university, don't declare a major, and take some classes. See what clicks.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 6:11 PM on January 2, 2015 [8 favorites]
Let the poor kid get through high school, apply to a university, don't declare a major, and take some classes. See what clicks.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 6:11 PM on January 2, 2015 [8 favorites]
Yeah, he's young, don't pressure him into figuring out now what he wants to do for the rest of his life.
Encourage him to consider colleges that have a broad range of sciences and liberal arts. Encourage him to explore.
posted by mareli at 6:24 PM on January 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
Encourage him to consider colleges that have a broad range of sciences and liberal arts. Encourage him to explore.
posted by mareli at 6:24 PM on January 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
(currently employed civil engineer)-I too hated, HATED, calculus 1. Suffered through it, got special permission to proceed in classes with a D and got much, much better grades in subsequent math classes, including differential equations. Got very good grades in all the classes that required calculus 1 as a pre-requisite. I do occasionally use differential equations but i have yet to use a discrete calculus equation, although understanding it really helps. So excelling in calculus is NOT required to have a successful career in engineering.
A LOT of AP teachers will do their best to drum out students who don't excel in math and might not pass because that screws up their rating/evaluation/school standing in how many people get AP credits. Happened to me.
posted by bartonlong at 6:27 PM on January 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
A LOT of AP teachers will do their best to drum out students who don't excel in math and might not pass because that screws up their rating/evaluation/school standing in how many people get AP credits. Happened to me.
posted by bartonlong at 6:27 PM on January 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
Mathematician here. Yep: if he likes physics, he likes math. My guess is that he just has a teacher who doesn't fit his style this year. Way too early to start deciding his major, let alone his career.
posted by escabeche at 6:28 PM on January 2, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by escabeche at 6:28 PM on January 2, 2015 [5 favorites]
AP Calculus is weird. They don't teach you with any rigor at all. Every problem is basically an "applications" problem. But they rarely tell you what the application actually is, so it's just equations that might or might not mean something with no context. There are occasional contrived word problems.
He's probably frustrated by having to find the volume of dozens of bizarre solids created by rotating curves about an axis. Or computing by hand all of the minima and maxima of some stupid contrived function. If he has a 34 ACT and did okay in algebra, geometry, precalculus I would be surprised if he is struggling because of basic aptitude.
I agree that he should be encouraged to explore, but hopefully he does not decide that he hates calculus now and forever (unless he actually does?). Perhaps try to get him to see this as a bad experience in a class vs. a bad experience with a subject. And expose him to subjects where calculus is used (like maybe AP Physics C?).
posted by vogon_poet at 6:29 PM on January 2, 2015 [7 favorites]
He's probably frustrated by having to find the volume of dozens of bizarre solids created by rotating curves about an axis. Or computing by hand all of the minima and maxima of some stupid contrived function. If he has a 34 ACT and did okay in algebra, geometry, precalculus I would be surprised if he is struggling because of basic aptitude.
I agree that he should be encouraged to explore, but hopefully he does not decide that he hates calculus now and forever (unless he actually does?). Perhaps try to get him to see this as a bad experience in a class vs. a bad experience with a subject. And expose him to subjects where calculus is used (like maybe AP Physics C?).
posted by vogon_poet at 6:29 PM on January 2, 2015 [7 favorites]
Calc is hard. It takes all of math and then says well now you do it differently with different stratagies. It is an entirely different way of looking at math.
Many people need the right teacher or just more time to fathom what is going on. I took calc twice. I really struggled the first time and the second time I got more of it but decided it wasn't worth me pursuing high level math.
I still finished college on time and have my degrees and am a smart person. Your son will be too!
posted by AlexiaSky at 6:30 PM on January 2, 2015
Many people need the right teacher or just more time to fathom what is going on. I took calc twice. I really struggled the first time and the second time I got more of it but decided it wasn't worth me pursuing high level math.
I still finished college on time and have my degrees and am a smart person. Your son will be too!
posted by AlexiaSky at 6:30 PM on January 2, 2015
Also, the different maths don't necessarily connect to each other. I've always had a hard time with algebra, but I flew through Geometry. I had the exact same teacher for both, so the only variable was the subject matter.
Calc may just not float his boat, but he might like stats or trig or some linear algebra.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 7:00 PM on January 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
Calc may just not float his boat, but he might like stats or trig or some linear algebra.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 7:00 PM on January 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
Physics is deeply based on calculus - in fact calculus was invented by physicists to solve problems in physics.
If he likes physics, maybe it would help to show him how the things he learned in physics are actually based on calculus - deriving the kinematics equations could be a good place to start.
posted by Salvor Hardin at 7:08 PM on January 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
If he likes physics, maybe it would help to show him how the things he learned in physics are actually based on calculus - deriving the kinematics equations could be a good place to start.
posted by Salvor Hardin at 7:08 PM on January 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
Don't know if this will help, but I was similar to this person when I was in high school; I did very well in maths until AP Calculus. I also had planned to go into engineering in college, and decided that I would not apply for that program based on my experience in calculus in high school.
However, before he abandons science and college, here were a couple things related to calculus that I realized in high school and later in college .
Hating AP calculus now will not bar him from pursuing many science degrees in college. In fact, if he is certain that he hates it and doesn't want to do it again, then all he needs to do is aim to get a passing score on the AP exam at the end of the year (not perfect, just passing). If he can get that, he will get credit for first semester calculus and unless he decides to take calculus again (or differential equations, etc.), then he will never need to take that class again and can still get a degree in biology or a medical degree. But since he has already gone through this work, he can use this to his advantage and get out of something he dislikes in college.
The other thing that I did not appreciate until college was to see how calculus was relevant to anything. It did become obvious in physics in college. So based on what you state about him now, taking physics at the college level might be enjoyable for him AND he will see how calculus was relevant. It doesn't matter what your degree is, you usually need a year or two of beginning science courses to get a degree - so why not take that in his first year?
I also believe that high school level material is not remotely related to most disciplines that you will be exposed to at the university level - so as many are suggesting, it is okay if he doesn't like calculus now, in the first year he can take the wide variety of courses that you need for any major, and decide a year or two later as to whether subject A, B, or C is interesting to him.
One more thing that ran through my mind - I had several friends in college who hated calculus at the high school level (and they also got credit it for based on their AP tests). They retook first year calculus in college and did fine. They were usually ahead of the class because they had been exposed to it before. So no matter how you think about it, he is ahead right now and doesn't need to throw out his entire career and education ideas out the window based on this experience. Nthing Etrigan on this overall idea - it might be the teacher at this point.
posted by Wolfster at 7:08 PM on January 2, 2015
However, before he abandons science and college, here were a couple things related to calculus that I realized in high school and later in college .
Hating AP calculus now will not bar him from pursuing many science degrees in college. In fact, if he is certain that he hates it and doesn't want to do it again, then all he needs to do is aim to get a passing score on the AP exam at the end of the year (not perfect, just passing). If he can get that, he will get credit for first semester calculus and unless he decides to take calculus again (or differential equations, etc.), then he will never need to take that class again and can still get a degree in biology or a medical degree. But since he has already gone through this work, he can use this to his advantage and get out of something he dislikes in college.
The other thing that I did not appreciate until college was to see how calculus was relevant to anything. It did become obvious in physics in college. So based on what you state about him now, taking physics at the college level might be enjoyable for him AND he will see how calculus was relevant. It doesn't matter what your degree is, you usually need a year or two of beginning science courses to get a degree - so why not take that in his first year?
I also believe that high school level material is not remotely related to most disciplines that you will be exposed to at the university level - so as many are suggesting, it is okay if he doesn't like calculus now, in the first year he can take the wide variety of courses that you need for any major, and decide a year or two later as to whether subject A, B, or C is interesting to him.
One more thing that ran through my mind - I had several friends in college who hated calculus at the high school level (and they also got credit it for based on their AP tests). They retook first year calculus in college and did fine. They were usually ahead of the class because they had been exposed to it before. So no matter how you think about it, he is ahead right now and doesn't need to throw out his entire career and education ideas out the window based on this experience. Nthing Etrigan on this overall idea - it might be the teacher at this point.
posted by Wolfster at 7:08 PM on January 2, 2015
Agreed with all of the above that he shouldn't necessarily make this decision based on one high school class, but it's worth mentioning that the History of Science is an academic field, and one that's growing.
posted by dizziest at 7:11 PM on January 2, 2015
posted by dizziest at 7:11 PM on January 2, 2015
Hi, engineer here.
Is it calc AB or BC he's in this year? Calc AB spends the first half teaching you shitty but fundamentally necessary to understanding ways to do things, and the second half teaches the easy way to do it that you actually use in life. If he's only just gotten though the first semester of AB, then it's okay to hate it and still want to be an engineer.
I found BC much more enjoyable, myself. And as a working engineer I mostly just use my higher math to sanity check what fancy software tells me.
posted by olinerd at 7:38 PM on January 2, 2015
Is it calc AB or BC he's in this year? Calc AB spends the first half teaching you shitty but fundamentally necessary to understanding ways to do things, and the second half teaches the easy way to do it that you actually use in life. If he's only just gotten though the first semester of AB, then it's okay to hate it and still want to be an engineer.
I found BC much more enjoyable, myself. And as a working engineer I mostly just use my higher math to sanity check what fancy software tells me.
posted by olinerd at 7:38 PM on January 2, 2015
Calc is to the math before it, as logarithms are to counting. It's really a disjoint step--especially if the calculus teacher doesn't really care about the why.
The kid is evidently smart. High school calc, however, is in some ways too focused (on particular applications) and too broad (not enough "why").
Could he perhaps get a tutor - an energetic engineering student or something? I tutored a student (actually, the son of my sixth grade homeroom teacher!) last semester. He told me at our last session, "Before we started, I though I was being punked - how could the other students get those answers in class - they don't even make sense...now even if I can't get the answer as fast as them, I can see why that answer makes sense." This was of course gratifying to me, but it also showed just how poorly the teacher was reaching him.
posted by notsnot at 7:58 PM on January 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
The kid is evidently smart. High school calc, however, is in some ways too focused (on particular applications) and too broad (not enough "why").
Could he perhaps get a tutor - an energetic engineering student or something? I tutored a student (actually, the son of my sixth grade homeroom teacher!) last semester. He told me at our last session, "Before we started, I though I was being punked - how could the other students get those answers in class - they don't even make sense...now even if I can't get the answer as fast as them, I can see why that answer makes sense." This was of course gratifying to me, but it also showed just how poorly the teacher was reaching him.
posted by notsnot at 7:58 PM on January 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
Current physics student's two cents:
Keeping in mind your family member is interested in science/engineering, what I read from "hates his AP Calculus class" is "hates [doing rote solutions to random calculus problems]".
While I'm not directly familiar with the AP calculus course, I assume the course would focus on the sort of 'foundations' of calculus like functions, limits, the formal definition of differentiation etc. You essentially build from these foundation concepts to get to the 'real life' calculus notation (i.e. Leibniz's and sometimes Newton's). University physics is formulated entirely in calculus using these notations. From what I remember of my experiences of high school physics everything there is formulated (or simplified) in a way to avoid calculus and any sort of calculus notation. If this is still the case, the connection between the calculus and physics your family member is learning now may not be very clear or apparent.
I was fortunate enough to have one of my parent's old college physics texts kicking around to kind of motivate me through the calculus slog. Reading through some of them pretty quickly solidified the necessity and usefulness of what was at the time a very boring and tedious subject.
My off beat suggestion: If your family member is really interested in physics/science/engineering, being able to see an almost direct application of the calculus he is learning in a proper university physics/science/engineering textbook might kindle some interest in the subject of calculus (or at least get him through it).
Pick up a good introductory university physics/science/engineering textbook and get him (willingly!) to work through some of the problems there.
If you can see what the calculus problems are leading to and get a taste of what you can actually use calculus to do, I think it's reasonable to go from "blah I have to do N tedious problems" to "blah I have to do N tedious problems, but at least I know through experience this will serve my actual interests later".
posted by TimeStove at 8:49 PM on January 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
Keeping in mind your family member is interested in science/engineering, what I read from "hates his AP Calculus class" is "hates [doing rote solutions to random calculus problems]".
While I'm not directly familiar with the AP calculus course, I assume the course would focus on the sort of 'foundations' of calculus like functions, limits, the formal definition of differentiation etc. You essentially build from these foundation concepts to get to the 'real life' calculus notation (i.e. Leibniz's and sometimes Newton's). University physics is formulated entirely in calculus using these notations. From what I remember of my experiences of high school physics everything there is formulated (or simplified) in a way to avoid calculus and any sort of calculus notation. If this is still the case, the connection between the calculus and physics your family member is learning now may not be very clear or apparent.
I was fortunate enough to have one of my parent's old college physics texts kicking around to kind of motivate me through the calculus slog. Reading through some of them pretty quickly solidified the necessity and usefulness of what was at the time a very boring and tedious subject.
My off beat suggestion: If your family member is really interested in physics/science/engineering, being able to see an almost direct application of the calculus he is learning in a proper university physics/science/engineering textbook might kindle some interest in the subject of calculus (or at least get him through it).
Pick up a good introductory university physics/science/engineering textbook and get him (willingly!) to work through some of the problems there.
If you can see what the calculus problems are leading to and get a taste of what you can actually use calculus to do, I think it's reasonable to go from "blah I have to do N tedious problems" to "blah I have to do N tedious problems, but at least I know through experience this will serve my actual interests later".
posted by TimeStove at 8:49 PM on January 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
Is he doing the homework? A lot of bright high school kids skate through math classes by being good test takers, and end up confusing being good at a subject with never having to work. I agree that the teacher could be a bad fit, but it's equally possible that he doesn't know how to handle a math class that doesn't come easily.
posted by yarntheory at 9:08 PM on January 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by yarntheory at 9:08 PM on January 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
I say this a lot, but I highly recommend the Johnson O'Connor aptitude tests. They could provide some insight and/or inspiration. (My guess is that, among other things, they will tell him, "You will be bored stiff with the kinds of jobs that don't need a college degree.")
posted by hishtafel at 9:41 PM on January 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by hishtafel at 9:41 PM on January 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
Can he just spend his freshman year figuring out what classes he likes? I think freshman year is for trying classes while getting a few requirements out of the way. It's hard to pick your career at 17/18. In fact, I think it's sort of crazy. He should sample some classes to get an idea of what areas he is interested in, and use the career center at school. He doesn't even need to necessarily pick a specific job he wants as he selects his major -- just a specific field. He can start to narrow down the job as late as his senior year, if he does well to chip away at required courses.
posted by AppleTurnover at 10:44 PM on January 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by AppleTurnover at 10:44 PM on January 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
I loved science and math in high school - I even went to a science and math magnet school - and after bouncing through three engineering majors, I'm a happy sociology professor (and my GPA skyrocketed, too). The analytic skills I got out of my math and science classes serve me just as well as a social scientist as they would if I'd stayed in something hard sciencey (and our alumni get jobs too, both research oriented and not). So, another vote for encouraging him not to pick now, along with thinking outside the box about what you think of as 'science'.
posted by joycehealy at 11:02 PM on January 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by joycehealy at 11:02 PM on January 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
Could he talk to his former physics teacher about this? "I loved physics but am not enjoying calculus to the point that I'm questioning whether or not I even want to do engineering in college. Do you have any advice?" Since the teacher surely knows your family member well and the respect is likely mutual, I bet the teacher could provide some insight on his particular situation.
I agree with the posters above who recommended your family member just continue on with college and see how it goes. Perhaps he'll decide to take some time off but likely he'll find the new learning environment stimulating and exciting in great ways. He can always major in physics instead of engineering, a degree that would still enable him to work in engineering one day if he should want to later on.
posted by smorgasbord at 2:20 AM on January 3, 2015
I agree with the posters above who recommended your family member just continue on with college and see how it goes. Perhaps he'll decide to take some time off but likely he'll find the new learning environment stimulating and exciting in great ways. He can always major in physics instead of engineering, a degree that would still enable him to work in engineering one day if he should want to later on.
posted by smorgasbord at 2:20 AM on January 3, 2015
I was a math major, did a PhD in math and then left academia. I have thoughts in a couple of different directions.
Like others have said, if he liked physics (though it sounds like he hasn't taken calculus-based physics), he probably doesn't have a deep-seated hatred of calculus. I enjoyed AP calculus and did really well in it, but it became clear to me later that I only had the vaguest idea of how calculus actually works. I found high school physics (I took the AP Physics C, which is calculus-based) deeply unsatisfying because it felt like there was a complete lack of explanation of how things actually worked, just formulas to plug things into (and then maybe a simple integral) but, on reflection, the same thing is true of the calculus course (I took BC a little over ten years ago). I just didn't notice at the time because I got satisfaction from cranking out problems and getting them right, whereas doing the same in physics took me more effort, so I was annoyed by it.
I went to a high school where, if you weren't inclined to be a business major (the "right" choice), a doctor or a lawyer (the "good" options if you were smart), you were basically told to be an engineer if you had any vague interest in math or science (otherwise, be a lawyer). From junior high on, people had been telling me how much I'd like physics because I liked math. I never really liked any science class in school and I kept thinking "Oh, I'll get to physics and really like that and go be an engineer." Then it slowly dawned on me junior and senior year that a) people actually spent their lives doing math, not just engineering, b) I liked math for its own sake, not just as something that propped up science and c) physics completed the set of high school science classes I did well in, but found to be tedious. Your relative may be getting a lot of similar messages: being an engineer will get him a job, STEM this, STEM that (which wasn't all the rage when I was in high school--I'm guessing my school now sees engineering as higher status).
Given that it's January of his senior year, he's presumably already applied to college and done so as an engineering major. Remind him that he has plenty of time to change his mind and that there are gen eds that your standard first year engineering courses count towards, should he ditch engineering for history.
Lastly, where I was in grad school, engineering students had ridiculously set class schedules, to the point they were told what sections to register for, especially their first few years (in stark contrast to my undergraduate experience, where you were expected to understand the requirements and figure out how to meet them). Encourage him to use whatever flexibility he has to take a random history class (or whatever) that strikes his fancy. It could be the thing he's meant to spend his life doing, or a source of friends (most of the people I still talk to from undergrad, I met in the German department), or just an opportunity for a different kind of thinking.
posted by hoyland at 4:52 AM on January 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
Like others have said, if he liked physics (though it sounds like he hasn't taken calculus-based physics), he probably doesn't have a deep-seated hatred of calculus. I enjoyed AP calculus and did really well in it, but it became clear to me later that I only had the vaguest idea of how calculus actually works. I found high school physics (I took the AP Physics C, which is calculus-based) deeply unsatisfying because it felt like there was a complete lack of explanation of how things actually worked, just formulas to plug things into (and then maybe a simple integral) but, on reflection, the same thing is true of the calculus course (I took BC a little over ten years ago). I just didn't notice at the time because I got satisfaction from cranking out problems and getting them right, whereas doing the same in physics took me more effort, so I was annoyed by it.
I went to a high school where, if you weren't inclined to be a business major (the "right" choice), a doctor or a lawyer (the "good" options if you were smart), you were basically told to be an engineer if you had any vague interest in math or science (otherwise, be a lawyer). From junior high on, people had been telling me how much I'd like physics because I liked math. I never really liked any science class in school and I kept thinking "Oh, I'll get to physics and really like that and go be an engineer." Then it slowly dawned on me junior and senior year that a) people actually spent their lives doing math, not just engineering, b) I liked math for its own sake, not just as something that propped up science and c) physics completed the set of high school science classes I did well in, but found to be tedious. Your relative may be getting a lot of similar messages: being an engineer will get him a job, STEM this, STEM that (which wasn't all the rage when I was in high school--I'm guessing my school now sees engineering as higher status).
Given that it's January of his senior year, he's presumably already applied to college and done so as an engineering major. Remind him that he has plenty of time to change his mind and that there are gen eds that your standard first year engineering courses count towards, should he ditch engineering for history.
Lastly, where I was in grad school, engineering students had ridiculously set class schedules, to the point they were told what sections to register for, especially their first few years (in stark contrast to my undergraduate experience, where you were expected to understand the requirements and figure out how to meet them). Encourage him to use whatever flexibility he has to take a random history class (or whatever) that strikes his fancy. It could be the thing he's meant to spend his life doing, or a source of friends (most of the people I still talk to from undergrad, I met in the German department), or just an opportunity for a different kind of thinking.
posted by hoyland at 4:52 AM on January 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
My high school physics classes didn't have any obvious calculus in them. My first exposure to calc-based physics was as a college freshman. Surprise!
Calc 1 and 2, Chemistry 1, and Physics 1 served to convince a large number of engineering majors that if they didn't want to do calculus for the next four years, there were plenty of other perfectly-fine majors they could change to. Engineering students try to feel superior to business majors, but business classes are full of smart people, doing way less calculus, and (for some reason, at least in the 90's) with a much more reasonable distribution of male/female students. When they graduate, they make plenty of money, too. (So you tell me--who are the smart ones now?)
There is an assumption that if you like science, and you like math, that you are a natural (some kind of) engineer, because Engineering is Math and Science. But there are plenty of other perfectly fine things you can study, and 1 or 2 semesters of calculus-based prerequisites won't keep you from them*.
* As long as you keep your GPA up so you don't lose financial aid. First few semesters are the most critical to this.
posted by Huffy Puffy at 7:59 AM on January 3, 2015
Calc 1 and 2, Chemistry 1, and Physics 1 served to convince a large number of engineering majors that if they didn't want to do calculus for the next four years, there were plenty of other perfectly-fine majors they could change to. Engineering students try to feel superior to business majors, but business classes are full of smart people, doing way less calculus, and (for some reason, at least in the 90's) with a much more reasonable distribution of male/female students. When they graduate, they make plenty of money, too. (So you tell me--who are the smart ones now?)
There is an assumption that if you like science, and you like math, that you are a natural (some kind of) engineer, because Engineering is Math and Science. But there are plenty of other perfectly fine things you can study, and 1 or 2 semesters of calculus-based prerequisites won't keep you from them*.
* As long as you keep your GPA up so you don't lose financial aid. First few semesters are the most critical to this.
posted by Huffy Puffy at 7:59 AM on January 3, 2015
I finished up my undergraduate degree in math last spring. In high school, I very much disliked AP Calculus. As I learned later in college, it wasn't the subject matter itself at all but the fact that we weren't going into enough depth for me to really grasp what was going on and how it worked. At the time it felt like little more than trying to memorize multi-step processes just to get answers to seemingly arbitrary questions. In college, we spent time focusing on the theory, not just on the process. That's when I realized that, no, I didn't hate calculus at all. Because calculus is awesome.
posted by The Great Big Mulp at 2:12 PM on January 3, 2015
posted by The Great Big Mulp at 2:12 PM on January 3, 2015
Just a note: lots of people in this thread are saying "maybe he doesn't like calculus because his course is cookbook-style, training in a bunch of processes without explaining why." And that's possible! But in my experience as a calculus teacher, it's just as common that students are not at all captivated by the theoretical aspects of calculus, but kind of enjoy knowing tricks for computing derivatives and integrals. You can totally be a good engineer and not care about the definition of a limit. Different students want different things; let him tell you what he doesn't like about his calculus class, and help him use that information to guide his future choices of coursework.
posted by escabeche at 3:24 PM on January 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by escabeche at 3:24 PM on January 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
Calculus often takes a couple of tries to understand and teacher quality makes a huge different. I'd recommend giving it 3 tries before giving up: this first try in high school, studying it on his own over the summer with Khan Academy, and then taking calculus for science and engineering his first year of college (regardless of whether his AP scores let him skip it, take it again).
If he still hates it after all that, then he might consider a quantitative business field like finance or economics -- mathy enough for him to get paid for getting as far in math as he did, but not so mathy that he'll have to take a bunch more math than he already did.
posted by Jacqueline at 3:54 PM on January 3, 2015
If he still hates it after all that, then he might consider a quantitative business field like finance or economics -- mathy enough for him to get paid for getting as far in math as he did, but not so mathy that he'll have to take a bunch more math than he already did.
posted by Jacqueline at 3:54 PM on January 3, 2015
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by deanc at 5:43 PM on January 2, 2015 [1 favorite]