Salutations from the 1950's
December 20, 2014 12:16 PM Subscribe
My mother just sent me a Christmas card addressed to "Mr. and Mrs. Joe Lastname". Help me prove to her that such a salutation is outdated and that my identity didn't get swallowed up when I got hitched.
My mother believes firmly that, when sending a letter to a married couple, it is appropriate etiquette to address it to "Mr. and Mrs. Dudes-first-name Lastname" (like "Mr. and Mrs. Miles O'Brien", leaving Keiko out entirely). I have seen her send out dozens of cards in my lifetime to relatives address in this manner. I have told her that, if she ever tried that with me any my future husband, I would send the letter back saying "Mrs. Joe Lastname not at this address! No such person!". She says that it's proper etiquette and good manners to address cards in this way, and until she hears otherwise she will keep doing it.
Well, now that I'm married, I got my very first "Mr. and Mrs. Joe Lastname" card. Barf.
If I tell her that it's no longer socially appropriate, she will want proof.
Metafilter, I am looking for a column, article, page in an etiquette book, etc that I can bring to her as proof that her methods are outdated. The information MUST be current, and MUST be from an etiquette expert that she would respect. Think "Miss Manners" and Dear Abby before "Savage Love", please (if he wrote about etiquette in correspondence, I guess).
Thanks!
From Mrs. Joe Lastname
My mother believes firmly that, when sending a letter to a married couple, it is appropriate etiquette to address it to "Mr. and Mrs. Dudes-first-name Lastname" (like "Mr. and Mrs. Miles O'Brien", leaving Keiko out entirely). I have seen her send out dozens of cards in my lifetime to relatives address in this manner. I have told her that, if she ever tried that with me any my future husband, I would send the letter back saying "Mrs. Joe Lastname not at this address! No such person!". She says that it's proper etiquette and good manners to address cards in this way, and until she hears otherwise she will keep doing it.
Well, now that I'm married, I got my very first "Mr. and Mrs. Joe Lastname" card. Barf.
If I tell her that it's no longer socially appropriate, she will want proof.
Metafilter, I am looking for a column, article, page in an etiquette book, etc that I can bring to her as proof that her methods are outdated. The information MUST be current, and MUST be from an etiquette expert that she would respect. Think "Miss Manners" and Dear Abby before "Savage Love", please (if he wrote about etiquette in correspondence, I guess).
Thanks!
From Mrs. Joe Lastname
It is extremely frustrating, but unfortunately I believe your mother is correct, even though it is utterly outdated and sexist.
According to Martha Stewart, your mother's way is "formal" and your way is "informal."
According to Emily Post, you would only use the wife's first name if she goes by Ms. instead of Mrs.
posted by gatorae at 12:25 PM on December 20, 2014 [1 favorite]
According to Martha Stewart, your mother's way is "formal" and your way is "informal."
According to Emily Post, you would only use the wife's first name if she goes by Ms. instead of Mrs.
posted by gatorae at 12:25 PM on December 20, 2014 [1 favorite]
Emily Post:
Married, she uses maiden name
Mr. John Kelly and Ms. Jane Johnson
Ms. Jane Johnson and Mr. John Kelly
If you can't fit the names on one line:
Mr. John Kelly
and Ms. Jane Johnson
*Note the indent, either name may be used first
posted by zamboni at 12:27 PM on December 20, 2014 [4 favorites]
Married, she uses maiden name
Mr. John Kelly and Ms. Jane Johnson
Ms. Jane Johnson and Mr. John Kelly
If you can't fit the names on one line:
Mr. John Kelly
and Ms. Jane Johnson
*Note the indent, either name may be used first
posted by zamboni at 12:27 PM on December 20, 2014 [4 favorites]
Best answer: My husband's mom does this to me/us and I hate it, but I just let it go. It's totally outdated, wrong and reductive, but the 1 second my eyes spend passing over it as I open the envelope is the sum total of how much time I want to spend on this problem. Our older relatives will all be dead at some point and this problem will be gone.
posted by BlahLaLa at 12:31 PM on December 20, 2014 [27 favorites]
posted by BlahLaLa at 12:31 PM on December 20, 2014 [27 favorites]
The Business Writing Blog agrees with you. That's just one business writing consultant's opinion, but it's concrete evidence of a shift on this point even in conservative domains.
posted by Monsieur Caution at 12:35 PM on December 20, 2014 [5 favorites]
posted by Monsieur Caution at 12:35 PM on December 20, 2014 [5 favorites]
Surely there's some data about how personal preference trumps supposed "etiquette" any day. Is your mother so confined in her beliefs that saying, "Mom, it is fundamentally offensive to me when you send ME a card addressed in this way. Won't you please respect MY wishes and be polite TO ME by addressing mail in this way WHEN YOU SEND IT TO ME?" wont be effective? Perhaps making it about you rather than this across-the-board thing may be more effective than getting her to submit to the greater reality that she's not particularly willing to accept.
posted by Hermione Granger at 12:35 PM on December 20, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by Hermione Granger at 12:35 PM on December 20, 2014 [3 favorites]
The only correct answer to this question is that you should address people as they prefer to be addressed.
posted by Sara C. at 12:37 PM on December 20, 2014 [23 favorites]
posted by Sara C. at 12:37 PM on December 20, 2014 [23 favorites]
Oh, that Business Writing Blog has a useful comment from someone with a nice list of 'etiquette expert' achievements. If your mother demands citations from people making a living at this and writing books on precisely this topic, that one might actually fly.
posted by Monsieur Caution at 12:45 PM on December 20, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by Monsieur Caution at 12:45 PM on December 20, 2014 [3 favorites]
Everyone knows that the correct and modern thing to do is to combine the wife's maiden name and the husband's bachelor name into an unofficial surname that you then use in all your unofficial correspondence to the point that confused relatives ask you if you've officially changed your last name. It's worked for us (think Mr Orange and Miss Banana now sign off as and get correspondence addressed to 'The Oranana Family'). Source: guy on the Internet
posted by dismitree at 12:47 PM on December 20, 2014 [18 favorites]
posted by dismitree at 12:47 PM on December 20, 2014 [18 favorites]
If your mother were writing to someone she didn't know, then there would be good reason to do the formal thing (if it's a formal occasion). But she isn't; she's writing to you, and if you can tell her your preference for future correspondence and she doesn't defer on the grounds that she's doing the formally correct thing, that would be kind of strange. One should be able to be informal in writing to one's children if that's their preference!
posted by kenko at 12:47 PM on December 20, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by kenko at 12:47 PM on December 20, 2014 [1 favorite]
Best answer: I kept my maiden name, and I STILL get lots of cards addressed to "Mr. and Mrs. Miles O'Brien."
The thing is that for a lot of people of our mothers' generation, and especially older generations, this is a sign of respect and acceptance for your marriage. Addressing it to "Mrs. Keiko O'Brien" can be seen as a snide dig at Keiko, suggesting she should be divorced (as traditionally you'd do woman's first/couple last after the divorce, to differentiate her from the possible NEW Mrs. Miles O'Brien). Some older women simple cannot in good conscience do this, even if it's what you prefer, because it feels too much like a slap in the face to them.
I get legit annoyed when people in MY generation who know my preference do this, instead of my preferred "Ms. Ishikawa and Mr. O'Brien" or whatever. But when it's someone of an older generation? My great-aunt writes "Mr. and Mrs. Miles O'Brien" because she loves me and she likes my husband and she supports our marriage and she simply can't bring herself to put mail THROUGH THE POST OFFICE WHICH IS ALL OFFICIAL that might suggest to any nosy busybodies who happen to see the envelope that she is less than 100% supportive of us.
I mean to be honest when I send my widowed grandmother letters I make sure to write "Mrs. Joe Schmoe," even though I think it's a bit silly, because otherwise it would hurt her feelings and suggest she was a divorcée instead of a widow, or that I had forgotten about her husband. It might even embarrass her in front of her friends or the staff at her assisted living facility.
It isn't just etiquette for a lot of older women -- just like it isn't just etiquette for those of us younger women who feel strongly about retaining our own names. It is for them, just like us, often a profoundly emotional issue of dignity and identity and honoring people's relationships. I think you should be addressed how you prefer -- but I think this is a terrible fight to pick with your mom. Either she has strong feelings that this has to do with respecting your marriage, in which case you probably can't argue her out of it (and, I would say, take the love and respect that's behind it and ignore the old-fashioned etiquette annoyance), or she's trying to get your goat, in which case pretending not to notice at all is probably your smartest move.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 12:52 PM on December 20, 2014 [89 favorites]
The thing is that for a lot of people of our mothers' generation, and especially older generations, this is a sign of respect and acceptance for your marriage. Addressing it to "Mrs. Keiko O'Brien" can be seen as a snide dig at Keiko, suggesting she should be divorced (as traditionally you'd do woman's first/couple last after the divorce, to differentiate her from the possible NEW Mrs. Miles O'Brien). Some older women simple cannot in good conscience do this, even if it's what you prefer, because it feels too much like a slap in the face to them.
I get legit annoyed when people in MY generation who know my preference do this, instead of my preferred "Ms. Ishikawa and Mr. O'Brien" or whatever. But when it's someone of an older generation? My great-aunt writes "Mr. and Mrs. Miles O'Brien" because she loves me and she likes my husband and she supports our marriage and she simply can't bring herself to put mail THROUGH THE POST OFFICE WHICH IS ALL OFFICIAL that might suggest to any nosy busybodies who happen to see the envelope that she is less than 100% supportive of us.
I mean to be honest when I send my widowed grandmother letters I make sure to write "Mrs. Joe Schmoe," even though I think it's a bit silly, because otherwise it would hurt her feelings and suggest she was a divorcée instead of a widow, or that I had forgotten about her husband. It might even embarrass her in front of her friends or the staff at her assisted living facility.
It isn't just etiquette for a lot of older women -- just like it isn't just etiquette for those of us younger women who feel strongly about retaining our own names. It is for them, just like us, often a profoundly emotional issue of dignity and identity and honoring people's relationships. I think you should be addressed how you prefer -- but I think this is a terrible fight to pick with your mom. Either she has strong feelings that this has to do with respecting your marriage, in which case you probably can't argue her out of it (and, I would say, take the love and respect that's behind it and ignore the old-fashioned etiquette annoyance), or she's trying to get your goat, in which case pretending not to notice at all is probably your smartest move.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 12:52 PM on December 20, 2014 [89 favorites]
This previous question has some relevant responses.
posted by BrashTech at 1:19 PM on December 20, 2014
posted by BrashTech at 1:19 PM on December 20, 2014
Who cares if there's a Miss Manners column that says this has changed. Follow through on your earlier threat and have the card returned.
posted by colin_l at 1:30 PM on December 20, 2014 [8 favorites]
posted by colin_l at 1:30 PM on December 20, 2014 [8 favorites]
Just as a point of reference, honorifics supersede gender. So, for example, if the Mrs. is a doctor, and the husband is not, then the letter should be addressed as:
Dr. Keiko Lastname and Mr. First Name Lastname.
Same goes for military personnel, diplomats, etc.
So depending on the couple, you could also point this out to her.
However, on the "Mrs" thing, she is technically correct....and it's bullcrap that won't be changed until it becomes more common in formal settings.
posted by zizzle at 1:33 PM on December 20, 2014 [1 favorite]
Dr. Keiko Lastname and Mr. First Name Lastname.
Same goes for military personnel, diplomats, etc.
So depending on the couple, you could also point this out to her.
However, on the "Mrs" thing, she is technically correct....and it's bullcrap that won't be changed until it becomes more common in formal settings.
posted by zizzle at 1:33 PM on December 20, 2014 [1 favorite]
It is socially appropriate to address correspondence to Mr and Mrs Joe Lastname, unless you know that they prefer to be addressed otherwise.
Miss Manners' Guide to Excruciatingly Correct Behaviour, p.33:
"there are the people who, for a variety of reasons, dislike a traditional form (such as Mrs. Gotbucks Wellborn for a divorcée) or a useful modern form (such as Ms. Elizabeth Wellborn for a woman of whatever marital status who wishes to use her own name - please see page 35). Such a person may insist on being addressed as [incorrect form], whether you and Miss Manners like it or not."
p.35:
"[...] as we live in confusing and changing times, and probably always will, it behooves us all to be flexible and tolerant. Your families are admittedly being inflexible, but this gives you the opportunity of setting an example of tolerance."
So yes, your mother is incorrect in addressing your correspondence using the traditional form when she knows you prefer a different, modern form.
However, there is a larger issue here. From page 6:
"Miss Manners corrects only upon request. [...] When Miss Manners observes people behaving rudely, she never steps in to correct them. She behaves politely to them, and then goes home and snickers about them afterward. That is what the well-bread person does. The only way to enjoy the fun of catching people behaving disgustingly is to have children. One has to keep having them, however, because it is incorrect to correct grown people, even if you have grown them yourself. [...] Miss Manners is constantly besieged by people who want to know the tactful manner of pointing out their friends' and relatives' inferiorities. [...] The answer is that they cannot, certainly not politely. There are times, in certain trusting relationships, when one can accomplish this impolitely. One can sometimes say 'Cracking your knuckles drives me up the wall and if you do it one more time I'll scream,' or 'Have a mint - there's something wrong with your breath,' or 'What's that thing on your left front tooth?' No reasonable person should take offense at these remarks. Because they are so frank, they do not seem to carry a history of repulsion long predating the offense."
Pay particular attention to page 11:
"Then there are the people who keep trying to entice Miss Manners to play Gotcha! It is a nasty game, and Miss Manners wants nothing to do with it.
"Gotcha! has a particularly sneaky opening move. The player sidles up to Miss Manners, or to a surrogate Miss Manners among his acquaintance, and says innocently, 'Tell me, my dear Miss Manners, what do you think of such and such a behaviour? Is that considered impolite? Would you even say it was rude?' [...] Poor Miss Manners is forced to agree [...] The game continues when the questioner goes running back to the wrongdoer, armed with the awesome authority of Miss Manners, and endeavors to carry out his true purpose, which was to make someone feel just terrible.
"Miss Manners hereby declares the entire game of Gotcha! to be rude."
Heed Miss Manners. Miss Manners is making a list and checking it twice. Miss Manners knows if you've been naughty or nice. Miss Manners is coming to town. Miss Manners is everywhere and sees everything. Miss Manners is smoke. Miss Manners can enter your home through the smallest of cracks and watch you sleeping. She knows when you're sleeping. She knows when you're awake. She knows what you're planning to do.
Now ask yourself: would Miss Manners want you to take her name in vain? Think very carefully about your answer.
posted by tel3path at 1:41 PM on December 20, 2014 [16 favorites]
Miss Manners' Guide to Excruciatingly Correct Behaviour, p.33:
"there are the people who, for a variety of reasons, dislike a traditional form (such as Mrs. Gotbucks Wellborn for a divorcée) or a useful modern form (such as Ms. Elizabeth Wellborn for a woman of whatever marital status who wishes to use her own name - please see page 35). Such a person may insist on being addressed as [incorrect form], whether you and Miss Manners like it or not."
p.35:
"[...] as we live in confusing and changing times, and probably always will, it behooves us all to be flexible and tolerant. Your families are admittedly being inflexible, but this gives you the opportunity of setting an example of tolerance."
So yes, your mother is incorrect in addressing your correspondence using the traditional form when she knows you prefer a different, modern form.
However, there is a larger issue here. From page 6:
"Miss Manners corrects only upon request. [...] When Miss Manners observes people behaving rudely, she never steps in to correct them. She behaves politely to them, and then goes home and snickers about them afterward. That is what the well-bread person does. The only way to enjoy the fun of catching people behaving disgustingly is to have children. One has to keep having them, however, because it is incorrect to correct grown people, even if you have grown them yourself. [...] Miss Manners is constantly besieged by people who want to know the tactful manner of pointing out their friends' and relatives' inferiorities. [...] The answer is that they cannot, certainly not politely. There are times, in certain trusting relationships, when one can accomplish this impolitely. One can sometimes say 'Cracking your knuckles drives me up the wall and if you do it one more time I'll scream,' or 'Have a mint - there's something wrong with your breath,' or 'What's that thing on your left front tooth?' No reasonable person should take offense at these remarks. Because they are so frank, they do not seem to carry a history of repulsion long predating the offense."
Pay particular attention to page 11:
"Then there are the people who keep trying to entice Miss Manners to play Gotcha! It is a nasty game, and Miss Manners wants nothing to do with it.
"Gotcha! has a particularly sneaky opening move. The player sidles up to Miss Manners, or to a surrogate Miss Manners among his acquaintance, and says innocently, 'Tell me, my dear Miss Manners, what do you think of such and such a behaviour? Is that considered impolite? Would you even say it was rude?' [...] Poor Miss Manners is forced to agree [...] The game continues when the questioner goes running back to the wrongdoer, armed with the awesome authority of Miss Manners, and endeavors to carry out his true purpose, which was to make someone feel just terrible.
"Miss Manners hereby declares the entire game of Gotcha! to be rude."
Heed Miss Manners. Miss Manners is making a list and checking it twice. Miss Manners knows if you've been naughty or nice. Miss Manners is coming to town. Miss Manners is everywhere and sees everything. Miss Manners is smoke. Miss Manners can enter your home through the smallest of cracks and watch you sleeping. She knows when you're sleeping. She knows when you're awake. She knows what you're planning to do.
Now ask yourself: would Miss Manners want you to take her name in vain? Think very carefully about your answer.
posted by tel3path at 1:41 PM on December 20, 2014 [16 favorites]
It is not and has never been socially appropriate to call people by names they ask you not to call them.
posted by spindrifter at 1:46 PM on December 20, 2014 [7 favorites]
posted by spindrifter at 1:46 PM on December 20, 2014 [7 favorites]
Response by poster: Bah Humbug! Oh well :-)
My mother and I have had some spirited (and fun!) discussions about etiquette over the last few years. This is her schtick, but she is not some cranky old relic that will never change her ways - I was able to convince her (with proper citations and proof) that it is now okay to split infinitives. We have also spoken at length about Oxford Commas. Bringing up this salutation issue would not be a good idea, given how the Higher Powers seem to be on her side. She would win that debate handily.
My choices then are few: ignore it; humbly request that she refrain from proper grammar when addressing me; or earn/obtain an honorific. I COULD get my PhD to circumvent the whole issue, but I have student loans enough already. I will try requesting an exception for me, and if that doesn't work I will ignore it.
Thanks, y'all.
posted by Elly Vortex at 2:24 PM on December 20, 2014 [6 favorites]
My mother and I have had some spirited (and fun!) discussions about etiquette over the last few years. This is her schtick, but she is not some cranky old relic that will never change her ways - I was able to convince her (with proper citations and proof) that it is now okay to split infinitives. We have also spoken at length about Oxford Commas. Bringing up this salutation issue would not be a good idea, given how the Higher Powers seem to be on her side. She would win that debate handily.
My choices then are few: ignore it; humbly request that she refrain from proper grammar when addressing me; or earn/obtain an honorific. I COULD get my PhD to circumvent the whole issue, but I have student loans enough already. I will try requesting an exception for me, and if that doesn't work I will ignore it.
Thanks, y'all.
posted by Elly Vortex at 2:24 PM on December 20, 2014 [6 favorites]
I have seen her send out dozens of cards in my lifetime to relatives address in this manner.
Yeah, well, it seems that she has a lifetime of extra leverage. Yay on you for being a good sport about it.
posted by Namlit at 2:38 PM on December 20, 2014
Yeah, well, it seems that she has a lifetime of extra leverage. Yay on you for being a good sport about it.
posted by Namlit at 2:38 PM on December 20, 2014
I would take a more direct solution: Burn any letters she sends that way, and mail the ashes back. If she wants to send you things, she can do it your way or not. I, however, am someone blunt and careless with such things though.
posted by Canageek at 2:40 PM on December 20, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by Canageek at 2:40 PM on December 20, 2014 [3 favorites]
Here's what you can politely ask:
"Please don't address correspondence to 'Mr and Mrs Hisname Vortex'.
"Please do address correspondence to 'Mrs Elly and Mr Hisname Vortex' or 'Ms Elly Maidenname [newline] Mr Firstname Lastname' or 'Ms Elly and Professor Firstname Vortex' or 'The Amazing Flying Vortex Duo And Rover The Wonder Cat' or [insert your preferred form here]."
It's never ever rude to say something like that.
Whereas, if you were to say "it's rude to call us Mr and Mrs Hisname Vortex when you know we want to be called Gur Frafngvbany Ebg13 Qhb", that would be rude, because one adult telling another adult that they're rude is the etiquette equivalent of triple murder with a chainsaw.
The thing is, do you want to have a spirited discussion with your mother about etiquette or do you want her to address you a certain way?
Discussing etiquette as a topic is great in and of itself, but it can get awkward to do so with someone you know, and especially with someone with whom you have an etiquette bone to pick. In this case, you're saying you want to have a discussion about etiquette as a topic, and this bone you have to pick with her is merely a case study. Ehhhhh... Now, to me, this is like discussing annoyances in your marriage with someone who knows both you and your husband, only it's okay because you're doing it on the green, and then suddenly your husband pops up midthread and points out "I'm right here".
But that's my personal opinion, based on (appropriately) zero knowledge of you or your mother as a person. Whether or not your relationship with your mother is close/confiding/safe enough to allow excursions into The Rude Zone and not get blown up by a mine, is left as an exercise for the reader.
posted by tel3path at 2:49 PM on December 20, 2014 [2 favorites]
"Please don't address correspondence to 'Mr and Mrs Hisname Vortex'.
"Please do address correspondence to 'Mrs Elly and Mr Hisname Vortex' or 'Ms Elly Maidenname [newline] Mr Firstname Lastname' or 'Ms Elly and Professor Firstname Vortex' or 'The Amazing Flying Vortex Duo And Rover The Wonder Cat' or [insert your preferred form here]."
It's never ever rude to say something like that.
Whereas, if you were to say "it's rude to call us Mr and Mrs Hisname Vortex when you know we want to be called Gur Frafngvbany Ebg13 Qhb", that would be rude, because one adult telling another adult that they're rude is the etiquette equivalent of triple murder with a chainsaw.
The thing is, do you want to have a spirited discussion with your mother about etiquette or do you want her to address you a certain way?
Discussing etiquette as a topic is great in and of itself, but it can get awkward to do so with someone you know, and especially with someone with whom you have an etiquette bone to pick. In this case, you're saying you want to have a discussion about etiquette as a topic, and this bone you have to pick with her is merely a case study. Ehhhhh... Now, to me, this is like discussing annoyances in your marriage with someone who knows both you and your husband, only it's okay because you're doing it on the green, and then suddenly your husband pops up midthread and points out "I'm right here".
But that's my personal opinion, based on (appropriately) zero knowledge of you or your mother as a person. Whether or not your relationship with your mother is close/confiding/safe enough to allow excursions into The Rude Zone and not get blown up by a mine, is left as an exercise for the reader.
posted by tel3path at 2:49 PM on December 20, 2014 [2 favorites]
You could also consult Lizzie and Dan Post, direct descendants of Emily Post who Have Carried on the Family Legacy, I haven't looked much into the naming etiquette, but they are both pretty modern and etiquette experts.
posted by KernalM at 2:51 PM on December 20, 2014
posted by KernalM at 2:51 PM on December 20, 2014
Update, quick googling got me here:
Today, married women can choose to be addressed socially and in correspondence in many different ways.
For example:
Mrs. John Kelly
Ms. Jane Kelly
Mrs. Jane Kelly
posted by KernalM at 2:56 PM on December 20, 2014
Today, married women can choose to be addressed socially and in correspondence in many different ways.
For example:
Mrs. John Kelly
Ms. Jane Kelly
Mrs. Jane Kelly
posted by KernalM at 2:56 PM on December 20, 2014
I COULD get my PhD to circumvent the whole issue, but I have student loans enough already.
If you want to do an end-run around her, while still playing along, could you not get Internet Ordained and then insist that "Rev. You and Mr. YourHusband" is more appropriate?
posted by CKmtl at 3:15 PM on December 20, 2014 [17 favorites]
If you want to do an end-run around her, while still playing along, could you not get Internet Ordained and then insist that "Rev. You and Mr. YourHusband" is more appropriate?
posted by CKmtl at 3:15 PM on December 20, 2014 [17 favorites]
I COULD get my PhD to circumvent the whole issue, but I have student loans enough already.
If the OP chooses to go this route, using the Etiquette Loophole provided by honorifics, and chooses further to do so via ordination in the Church of the SubGenius, then this is something I would be willing to subsidise. All I ask in return is a copy/picture/video of your mother's response to your insistence on being addressed as "Rev." and having your Doktorate of Forbidden Sciences acknowledged.
posted by busted_crayons at 4:00 PM on December 20, 2014 [6 favorites]
It would be rude for someone to continue to address you as Mrs. Joe Lastname once you've told her you prefer something different. It wasn't rude for your mother to use that mode if she didn't actually know your preference. Maybe she got a thrill the first time she signed her name, "Mrs. Bob Surnamme" and thought you might, as well.
posted by wryly at 5:58 PM on December 20, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by wryly at 5:58 PM on December 20, 2014 [1 favorite]
My mom was in the habit of sending mail addressed to me as Bleep Marriedname. I found it cute and kind of a lazy way of changing my name without having to deal with bureaucracy to get it done (my sole reason for not changing my name). Well one time she mailed a package to Bleep Marriedname and it got brought back to the post office because no one was home when it arrived. They would not let me pick it up because I have no identification that says Bleep Marriedname on it. It just got returned to sender. That's one official reason not to send mail that's not addressed to someone's legal name. The Post Office does not like it.
posted by bleep at 6:28 PM on December 20, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by bleep at 6:28 PM on December 20, 2014 [2 favorites]
I have never changed my name, before or after being married. My son has his Dad's last name. I am still occasionally referred to as Mrs. Thang instead of Ms. Fifty-Five. As long as it's friendly, I simply smile and return whatever greeting. Anyone who knows me for even a short while will figure out my real name, and my feminist belief.
If your Mom is playing games, which seems likely, ignore her. Trollery does not thrive in a vacuum. If she introduces you as Mrs. HisLast, blandly correct her. it's quite likely you and your Mom have bigger fish to argue over. And if not, well done, both of you.
posted by theora55 at 6:33 PM on December 20, 2014 [3 favorites]
If your Mom is playing games, which seems likely, ignore her. Trollery does not thrive in a vacuum. If she introduces you as Mrs. HisLast, blandly correct her. it's quite likely you and your Mom have bigger fish to argue over. And if not, well done, both of you.
posted by theora55 at 6:33 PM on December 20, 2014 [3 favorites]
given how the Higher Powers seem to be on her side
I disagree that they are; the whole point of etiquette is to make other people comfortable, and to smooth social interactions. What your mother is doing is neither. Etiquette should not be used to lord it over other people that they are incorrect in some way.
For instance, I bet, amyra, that if your granddaughter did express a preference, you'd do your best to remember to address her the way she prefers, right? Because she's a person, and not a symbol or a type, and she's a person you care about!
posted by rtha at 6:56 PM on December 20, 2014 [1 favorite]
I disagree that they are; the whole point of etiquette is to make other people comfortable, and to smooth social interactions. What your mother is doing is neither. Etiquette should not be used to lord it over other people that they are incorrect in some way.
For instance, I bet, amyra, that if your granddaughter did express a preference, you'd do your best to remember to address her the way she prefers, right? Because she's a person, and not a symbol or a type, and she's a person you care about!
posted by rtha at 6:56 PM on December 20, 2014 [1 favorite]
> My choices then are few: ignore it; humbly request that she refrain from proper grammar when addressing me; or earn/obtain an honorific.
Well, don't forget option four: return the card unopened, with "Mrs. Joe Lastname not at this address! No such person!" written on the envelope. You already told her that's what would happen, and she made her choices.
I would do this, and I would do it with firmness and humour and love.
posted by EXISTENZ IS PAUSED at 9:30 PM on December 20, 2014 [1 favorite]
Well, don't forget option four: return the card unopened, with "Mrs. Joe Lastname not at this address! No such person!" written on the envelope. You already told her that's what would happen, and she made her choices.
I would do this, and I would do it with firmness and humour and love.
posted by EXISTENZ IS PAUSED at 9:30 PM on December 20, 2014 [1 favorite]
Etiquette is complicated and multifaceted. You prefer a particular mode of address which, though common, doesn’t adhere to the old established order; however, politeness indicates that one bends somewhat to personal preference of the recipient in these matters. Politeness also includes the notion that one defers to the preferences of ones elders in minor matters…
I no longer have a Mother around to chide or to chide me, but experience over the time we were both adults taught me that gentle repetition of a preference, at appropriate moments, beat having heated arguments, both in terms of efficacy and self respect.
I should also point out that pretty much every maven of etiquette agrees that the appropriate answer to rudeness is never to be rude yourself. Doing something extreme like burning and returning letters is not merely rude it is a profound insult; only do it if you are willing to risk deeply hurting your Mother and forever altering your relationship
posted by Quinbus Flestrin at 10:45 PM on December 20, 2014 [1 favorite]
I no longer have a Mother around to chide or to chide me, but experience over the time we were both adults taught me that gentle repetition of a preference, at appropriate moments, beat having heated arguments, both in terms of efficacy and self respect.
I should also point out that pretty much every maven of etiquette agrees that the appropriate answer to rudeness is never to be rude yourself. Doing something extreme like burning and returning letters is not merely rude it is a profound insult; only do it if you are willing to risk deeply hurting your Mother and forever altering your relationship
posted by Quinbus Flestrin at 10:45 PM on December 20, 2014 [1 favorite]
It you would like a British perspective the Debrett's is probably the place to go. And here is what they have to say about the issue:
"Joint invitation* & joint form of address: Mr and Mrs John Brown -*Note that, traditionally, invitations to a married couple, when sent to their home address, are addressed to the wife alone, with both names being inscribed on the invitation card. It has become increasingly acceptable, however, to address the envelope with both names."
So, your mother's preferred form is "correct" and yours is a mere " increasingly acceptable". Frightfully sorry about that one, old bean.
posted by rongorongo at 1:20 AM on December 21, 2014 [1 favorite]
"Joint invitation* & joint form of address: Mr and Mrs John Brown -*Note that, traditionally, invitations to a married couple, when sent to their home address, are addressed to the wife alone, with both names being inscribed on the invitation card. It has become increasingly acceptable, however, to address the envelope with both names."
So, your mother's preferred form is "correct" and yours is a mere " increasingly acceptable". Frightfully sorry about that one, old bean.
posted by rongorongo at 1:20 AM on December 21, 2014 [1 favorite]
My choices then are few: ignore it; humbly request that she refrain from proper grammar when addressing me; or earn/obtain an honorific.
I would phrase it as a simple choice: would you rather observe etiquette or default to the option for which I express a clear preference?
And then let it go. There are hills worth dying on, and hills you climb to reach the one on which you choose to die.
posted by itstheclamsname at 7:45 AM on December 21, 2014 [2 favorites]
I would phrase it as a simple choice: would you rather observe etiquette or default to the option for which I express a clear preference?
And then let it go. There are hills worth dying on, and hills you climb to reach the one on which you choose to die.
posted by itstheclamsname at 7:45 AM on December 21, 2014 [2 favorites]
What it comes down to is what Quinbus Flestrin pointed out and itstheclamsname also: Is it important enough an issue that you're willing to risk your relationship with your mother over it? Or is it something you can just mention to her, tell her it's important to you and ask if she'd please try to address materials to you the way you'd like her to, and then let it go because in the long run the relationship itself is more important than that?
Only you know the answer, so act accordingly. I agree, though, that something so hateful as burning her letter and sending her the ashes is, indeed, about as insulting as anything could get. My own response to that move would be to end the correspondence completely, but that's just me.
posted by aryma at 5:50 PM on December 21, 2014
Only you know the answer, so act accordingly. I agree, though, that something so hateful as burning her letter and sending her the ashes is, indeed, about as insulting as anything could get. My own response to that move would be to end the correspondence completely, but that's just me.
posted by aryma at 5:50 PM on December 21, 2014
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The best etiquette and manners is to abide by someone's wishes, especially when specifically expressed, and to address correspondence in the way requested.
I don't have a column (yet) to point to, but really, isn't this common sense?
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 12:23 PM on December 20, 2014 [9 favorites]