Attorney for a college disagreement
December 4, 2014 10:24 AM Subscribe
My college (a private one) doesn't want to give me credits for a Clep exam that I took.
They argue that the exam is for the minor and I'm missing credits for my major. I passed the Biology Clep (difficult exam by all accounts) but they want me to take some nutrition class instead, which they consider is "upper". Those are my six remaining credit to obtain my degree in Business. I submit an appeal based on the complexity of the exam I took but it was denied. I want to hire an attorney to speak to them about it. What kind of attorney should I get?
They argue that the exam is for the minor and I'm missing credits for my major. I passed the Biology Clep (difficult exam by all accounts) but they want me to take some nutrition class instead, which they consider is "upper". Those are my six remaining credit to obtain my degree in Business. I submit an appeal based on the complexity of the exam I took but it was denied. I want to hire an attorney to speak to them about it. What kind of attorney should I get?
That sounds like a pretty garden-variety legal action – maybe a breach of contract or a mandamus. Pretty much any litigator would be able to give you advice on that. If you give a call to your local bar association, they may be able to give you a referral to attorneys who have experience in disputes with educational institutions.
I will add this, though: IANYL, but that's going to be a very, very tough case, and that's putting it quite kindly. At least in my jurisdiction, and I suspect in most others, universities have extremely broad discretion to make academic and administrative decisions, and it sounds like this disagreement falls pretty squarely under that umbrella. Not to put too fine a point on it, going the legal route will likely be roughly as effective as banging your head against the wall; it frankly would probably be a hell of a lot easier and quicker to take the class.
posted by holborne at 10:47 AM on December 4, 2014 [5 favorites]
I will add this, though: IANYL, but that's going to be a very, very tough case, and that's putting it quite kindly. At least in my jurisdiction, and I suspect in most others, universities have extremely broad discretion to make academic and administrative decisions, and it sounds like this disagreement falls pretty squarely under that umbrella. Not to put too fine a point on it, going the legal route will likely be roughly as effective as banging your head against the wall; it frankly would probably be a hell of a lot easier and quicker to take the class.
posted by holborne at 10:47 AM on December 4, 2014 [5 favorites]
Biology CLEP is a first year biology class, which is non specialized material studied by just about everyone. A nutrition class covers rather specialized material of the sort that you can only take once you have taken an introductory biology class.
posted by deanc at 10:52 AM on December 4, 2014 [11 favorites]
posted by deanc at 10:52 AM on December 4, 2014 [11 favorites]
That sounds like a pretty garden-variety legal action – maybe a breach of contract or a mandamus.
I disagree.
Attorneys who do a lot of, say, car crash litigation, are going to have to start from scratch in a case like this. Look for attorneys billing themselves as "education lawyers" or something similar to find someone who has done this kind of thing before.
posted by craven_morhead at 10:53 AM on December 4, 2014 [3 favorites]
I disagree.
Attorneys who do a lot of, say, car crash litigation, are going to have to start from scratch in a case like this. Look for attorneys billing themselves as "education lawyers" or something similar to find someone who has done this kind of thing before.
posted by craven_morhead at 10:53 AM on December 4, 2014 [3 favorites]
The bio CLEP is only difficult in the sense that it's one test on an awful lot of material. It's 100-level, and you probably don't have to make much better than a 50% to pass (they obfuscate the scores, so we can't be sure). I'd check and see what the course catalog has to say about CLEP credit; they certainly have the policy in writing somewhere. They aren't required to accept CLEP. It does sound like it's getting you past the prereq for your nutrition classes though, so that's something.
posted by hollyholly at 10:57 AM on December 4, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by hollyholly at 10:57 AM on December 4, 2014 [3 favorites]
From the way that you worded it, it sounds like 1) they approve this exam for some sort of credit; but 2) they have already determined that it's not worthy of upper division credit, even though some people consider it difficult. The school does have a right to determine the weight of the course, and if this is documented somewhere, it's probably a pretty solid decision that wouldn't be overturned in court or by pressure from an outside attorney. The Department of Education, though, is the pace where you can file a formal complaint if you feel that your registrar is being unfair in their policies.
posted by SpacemanStix at 10:59 AM on December 4, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by SpacemanStix at 10:59 AM on December 4, 2014 [2 favorites]
When you compare the cost of hiring an attorney for an un-guaranteed outcome (and really, if your school didn't previously say they would accept your exam for credit, then you don't have much of a chance) vs paying for a few credits of class with a guaranteed outcome, the most sensible route seems pretty clear to me.
Your school also has an office for conflict resolution (possibly the Dean's office) - that may be one route you could try to appeal the appeal.
posted by Think_Long at 11:03 AM on December 4, 2014 [4 favorites]
Your school also has an office for conflict resolution (possibly the Dean's office) - that may be one route you could try to appeal the appeal.
posted by Think_Long at 11:03 AM on December 4, 2014 [4 favorites]
Take the nutrition class. If they don't want to accept CLEP for upper-division credit they don't have to.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 11:44 AM on December 4, 2014 [11 favorites]
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 11:44 AM on December 4, 2014 [11 favorites]
If googling or the bar referral doesn't yield a specialized lawyer, then you could try looking at court records. If the clerk of court information is online in your jurisdiction, you could search court records for cases in which your college is a defendant. You might see a recurring plaintiff's lawyer or two who regularly take these sorts of cases.
I highly doubt that this is going to be a good use of your money, though. Even if the nutrition class costs a few thousand, you would likely end up spending that or more on an attorney. At least if you pay the money for the nutrition class you have a guaranteed outcome.
posted by gatorae at 12:11 PM on December 4, 2014 [4 favorites]
I highly doubt that this is going to be a good use of your money, though. Even if the nutrition class costs a few thousand, you would likely end up spending that or more on an attorney. At least if you pay the money for the nutrition class you have a guaranteed outcome.
posted by gatorae at 12:11 PM on December 4, 2014 [4 favorites]
Best answer: More information would be helpful here. It sounds like you're saying you're missing credits for a Business major, but the CLEP was in bio. Unless there's something strange going on here, it seems like in this case a bio course would go toward "gen ed" sort of requirements rather than a Business major specifically. Major requirements aren't just general "I took a hard class" credits, but are typically specific classes in the specific area of your major.
In any case, I think your best bet in terms of figuring out whether a lawyer is worth it is to look in the course catalog at the specific language on transfers. I didn't take any CLEP tests, but I did take a few AP. My college had it specifically listed out, as in "A 4 or 5 on the Government AP exam will count as transfer credit for Political Science 101. A 3, 4, or 5 on the Physics AP exam will count as transfer credit for Physics 102." etc. etc. Usually it was a specific score for one specific class, not just that tests would get you general credit. All schools are different, of course! But check your course catalog to see what their specific policy is. If it says "The biology CLEP test will be accepted as transfer credit for X Class" where "X Class" is the class you need to graduate, you potentially have a case (although, it still might be too costly to be worth fighting). If it doesn't say that, you're probably out of luck.
posted by rainbowbrite at 1:31 PM on December 4, 2014 [1 favorite]
In any case, I think your best bet in terms of figuring out whether a lawyer is worth it is to look in the course catalog at the specific language on transfers. I didn't take any CLEP tests, but I did take a few AP. My college had it specifically listed out, as in "A 4 or 5 on the Government AP exam will count as transfer credit for Political Science 101. A 3, 4, or 5 on the Physics AP exam will count as transfer credit for Physics 102." etc. etc. Usually it was a specific score for one specific class, not just that tests would get you general credit. All schools are different, of course! But check your course catalog to see what their specific policy is. If it says "The biology CLEP test will be accepted as transfer credit for X Class" where "X Class" is the class you need to graduate, you potentially have a case (although, it still might be too costly to be worth fighting). If it doesn't say that, you're probably out of luck.
posted by rainbowbrite at 1:31 PM on December 4, 2014 [1 favorite]
This sounds like a low value claim, so the kind of attorney you should hire is whatever one you can find who will work the cheapest.
posted by J. Wilson at 2:53 PM on December 4, 2014
posted by J. Wilson at 2:53 PM on December 4, 2014
I want to hire an attorney to speak to them about it. What kind of attorney should I get?
This is one of these AskMes where the premise is just not correct.
I am currently chairing the committee at my university that processes student petitions, where students ask for a waiver to the rules for satisfying core requirements, or---as in your case---major requirements, etc.
If the major you are pursuing requires X upper-division biology/science credits, I see no reason why the your department would accept lower division biology credits in the form of a CLEP exam. It's presumably not a question of them not giving you credits for the CLEP exam (or if it is, that's their prerogative, as long as it's applied to all students and not just you), but rather those credits not counting for what you want them to.
Having said that, I imagine that there are several avenues available to you at your own university (none utilizing the services of a lawyer, which seems seriously premature). If you already went through a process of asking for a waiver of the rules (accept the lower-division CLEP credits instead of the required upper-division course) which was denied, you can always appeal that ruling to the provost of the university/dean of the college (depending on the administrative structure of your institution of higher education). But seriously, a lawyer won't help your case: all it will do is make people roll their eyes and piss them off.
Nobody owes you a degree, and you don't get to just decide that you shouldn't have to follow the rules that everyone else has to follow just because it's inconvenient to you.
(Now, if you were advised by someone in authority at your university (e.g., your assigned advisor) that the CLEP exam should satisfy a certain requirement for your major, and you based the courses you took on that assurance, then that would be a good thing to point out in your appeal of your original petition and would strengthen your argument. But if your argument boils down to "but the CLEP is really hard" and therefore should correspond to upper-division biology credits, that's not going to be a real compelling argument.)
posted by leahwrenn at 5:01 PM on December 4, 2014 [4 favorites]
This is one of these AskMes where the premise is just not correct.
I am currently chairing the committee at my university that processes student petitions, where students ask for a waiver to the rules for satisfying core requirements, or---as in your case---major requirements, etc.
If the major you are pursuing requires X upper-division biology/science credits, I see no reason why the your department would accept lower division biology credits in the form of a CLEP exam. It's presumably not a question of them not giving you credits for the CLEP exam (or if it is, that's their prerogative, as long as it's applied to all students and not just you), but rather those credits not counting for what you want them to.
Having said that, I imagine that there are several avenues available to you at your own university (none utilizing the services of a lawyer, which seems seriously premature). If you already went through a process of asking for a waiver of the rules (accept the lower-division CLEP credits instead of the required upper-division course) which was denied, you can always appeal that ruling to the provost of the university/dean of the college (depending on the administrative structure of your institution of higher education). But seriously, a lawyer won't help your case: all it will do is make people roll their eyes and piss them off.
Nobody owes you a degree, and you don't get to just decide that you shouldn't have to follow the rules that everyone else has to follow just because it's inconvenient to you.
(Now, if you were advised by someone in authority at your university (e.g., your assigned advisor) that the CLEP exam should satisfy a certain requirement for your major, and you based the courses you took on that assurance, then that would be a good thing to point out in your appeal of your original petition and would strengthen your argument. But if your argument boils down to "but the CLEP is really hard" and therefore should correspond to upper-division biology credits, that's not going to be a real compelling argument.)
posted by leahwrenn at 5:01 PM on December 4, 2014 [4 favorites]
You can't compel them to accept credits. This is a hiding to nothing. Biology is not nutrition. Take the required class.
posted by DarlingBri at 5:29 PM on December 4, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by DarlingBri at 5:29 PM on December 4, 2014 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: The missing credits are for General Education (Science and Technology) which can be satisfied with the Biology Clep. My academic advisor, who chose all my classes because they have this kind of planning function, knew I was taking the test to satisfy those credits. The school is not accepting the Clep exam because I already took all the credits I needed for lower division and only have room for 6 credits on the upper division. That's why they want me to take an upper division class instead of accepting the test. Of course, they switch my academic counselor a month before I took the test, so the new one is claiming she didn't know about the test. I thought the test satisfy Science credit regardless of lower/upper division.
I'm following Rainbowbrite suggestion and reading again the whole catalog looking for a way to support a new request for excepcion to a higher level of authority.
posted by 3dd at 5:55 PM on December 4, 2014
I'm following Rainbowbrite suggestion and reading again the whole catalog looking for a way to support a new request for excepcion to a higher level of authority.
posted by 3dd at 5:55 PM on December 4, 2014
It sounds like you *should* be able to use the Biology CLEP to satisfy the science requirements, but would still need to take the six upper division courses in any subject that would normally be acceptable for that part of the requirement. It doesn't seem sensible that they'd either expect or truly require you to take those six as science since you're a business major, when something like more writing or business-related stuff should work.
If you're misunderstanding how CLEP works, and want it to count as both low-level science (which it is and does) and upper-level elective or science, it isn't and won't, not at any college.
posted by stormyteal at 6:18 PM on December 4, 2014
If you're misunderstanding how CLEP works, and want it to count as both low-level science (which it is and does) and upper-level elective or science, it isn't and won't, not at any college.
posted by stormyteal at 6:18 PM on December 4, 2014
It is 6 credits or two classes ay most. It's something that can be done over a summer or added to a course load unless youare maxed out based on your ability level(if you have a high enough GPA most schools have overrides to allow a larger number of courses to be taken than normal with approval). It really really isn't worth arguing about unless it is impeding your ability to graduate on time or at all. I had a 4 year scholarship so completing on time was nessisary. But my school also had a clause that it was the students responsibility to make sure they met the requirements, the counselors were just guides.
Take it as a lesson learned large organizational policies take away individualistic concideration and compassion.
You can appeal the decision. But if you needed a higher level science and you took a lower level science and a clep course you do need to still take a high level science.
posted by AlexiaSky at 7:57 PM on December 4, 2014
Take it as a lesson learned large organizational policies take away individualistic concideration and compassion.
You can appeal the decision. But if you needed a higher level science and you took a lower level science and a clep course you do need to still take a high level science.
posted by AlexiaSky at 7:57 PM on December 4, 2014
Best answer: Do I have this right?
It sucks, because I know what you mean about upper-division courses not being more difficult than some of these credit-equivalent exams like CLEP or IB or AP. Those exams are attempting to appease the introductory course demands of every university, from a tiny community college to a high-powered Ivy League-type school, so they err on the side of comprehensive. But the content and difficulty of your university's courses are decided entirely internally, so you can end up with some laughable bullshit being taught at the "higher" levels.
I think your best chance of appeal is to explain you were led astray by your adviser, put all this time and money and effort into it, and are very frustrated you were assigned to someone who did not understand the niceties of the basic gen ed requirements. You trusted your adviser to advise you correctly, and they did not. Whether or not this works will depend on whether the person taking your appeal likes you and how shitty your university bureaucracy is, so it is in your best interests to be polite and sweet as pie.
If you can make up those six credits in just one stupid nutrition course though I would just do it, especially if you feel the course is going to be easy. Sometimes the laughable bullshit upper-level courses exist specifically for the non-major students taking them who just want to fill the requirement and get out.
posted by Anonymous at 8:52 PM on December 4, 2014
- You need 6 upper-division credits.
- Your previous adviser told you the Bio CLEP exam would satisfy lower-division or higher division credits.
- The school's actual policy is that CLEP exams only qualify for lower-division credits, and your old adviser sucked.
- You are still on the hook for those six credits.
It sucks, because I know what you mean about upper-division courses not being more difficult than some of these credit-equivalent exams like CLEP or IB or AP. Those exams are attempting to appease the introductory course demands of every university, from a tiny community college to a high-powered Ivy League-type school, so they err on the side of comprehensive. But the content and difficulty of your university's courses are decided entirely internally, so you can end up with some laughable bullshit being taught at the "higher" levels.
I think your best chance of appeal is to explain you were led astray by your adviser, put all this time and money and effort into it, and are very frustrated you were assigned to someone who did not understand the niceties of the basic gen ed requirements. You trusted your adviser to advise you correctly, and they did not. Whether or not this works will depend on whether the person taking your appeal likes you and how shitty your university bureaucracy is, so it is in your best interests to be polite and sweet as pie.
If you can make up those six credits in just one stupid nutrition course though I would just do it, especially if you feel the course is going to be easy. Sometimes the laughable bullshit upper-level courses exist specifically for the non-major students taking them who just want to fill the requirement and get out.
posted by Anonymous at 8:52 PM on December 4, 2014
If it were me, and given that I loved taking interesting classes outside of my major, and given that your school is essentially promising your future employers that you have X amount of high-level education (so that letting you substitute a more general/low level "class" for a higher-level specialized class means that you'll have a less advanced education than everyone else who graduates with you), I might try this:
If you have written/e-mail documentation that your old advisor gave you incorrect information that led you to take this test, and put the effort and your valuable time into studying for the test (which may have cost you in terms of your GPA and/or income you could have been earning), then the school might instead compensate you financially, maybe by waiving tuition for the class.
I am _not_ a lawyer, but if I were you, and if I could get that evidence together, I might just ask a dean or someone if that might be possible.
posted by amtho at 9:09 PM on December 4, 2014
If you have written/e-mail documentation that your old advisor gave you incorrect information that led you to take this test, and put the effort and your valuable time into studying for the test (which may have cost you in terms of your GPA and/or income you could have been earning), then the school might instead compensate you financially, maybe by waiving tuition for the class.
I am _not_ a lawyer, but if I were you, and if I could get that evidence together, I might just ask a dean or someone if that might be possible.
posted by amtho at 9:09 PM on December 4, 2014
Best answer: I had a shitty adviser who advised me incorrectly and I ended up having to take 9, yes NINE classes my final semester to get my degree. I was pissed about it, but what can you do? I didn't have that credits I needed to graduate. I got through it by taking classes over a winter mini-semester during break and over the summer.
I would consult your school's policies and course catalog and if it isn't explicitly stated there that they are wrong and you are right, I would just take the class because there's no fight to be had. And one class, in the grand scheme of things, really isn't that much.
posted by AppleTurnover at 1:23 AM on December 5, 2014
I would consult your school's policies and course catalog and if it isn't explicitly stated there that they are wrong and you are right, I would just take the class because there's no fight to be had. And one class, in the grand scheme of things, really isn't that much.
posted by AppleTurnover at 1:23 AM on December 5, 2014
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However, it's hard to tell if that will actually be of any use, and it might be more expensive and time consuming than taking a nutrition course. Colleges can make their own rules for what sort of transfer credits they accept, and it's unlikely to be a legal issue unless they are also discriminating against you or something.
It might be helpful to link to your university's website on requirements to see if any Mefites can see if they are going against their own policy.
posted by fermezporte at 10:42 AM on December 4, 2014 [7 favorites]