Do I ask my current company for a raise? Or leave all together?
November 2, 2014 4:22 PM Subscribe
Do I ask for a raise with my current company while being pursued by another company? Or do I jump ship all together? (More details after the jump)
In March of this year I started at a tech start-up as a software developer. I really like my team and what I'm working on. The hang up is I am unhappy about my salary.
When I interviewed for the position only seven months ago I low-balled the number I was looking for. At the time this made sense - I didn't have a lot of experience, and when interviewing with other tech companies (mainly start-ups) the point was made numerous times that my asking salary was a bit high. I should note that my current company is well-funded, and offered me a little above my asking salary at the time.
Fast forward to today, and I am being aggressively pursued by another tech company. They are well-funded and culturally it feels like it would be a great fit working for them. They are well aware that I am happy with my current company and am not actively looking to leave. So long as the more technical interviews go well, I have a feeling that they would make a generous offer for me to join their team.
My first question is would it be ill-advised to go to management of my current company and ask for a raise to match what the second company is offering, if they do indeed make me an offer? What is the potential fallout for this?
My second question is about possibly taking the offer. I feel I am still new to this industry, as I've only been working in it for little over year up to this point. I want to show that I am not someone to job-hop, but leaving now would mitigate that. Is leaving my first job in an industry after only eight months a serious red flag in the future when/if I choose to work somewhere else in a few years?
Despite the fact I really enjoy working for my current company, feeling like I am burdened with student loan debt coupled with the everyday high living expenses of NYC is enough to make me want to jump ship. Ultimately, I want to get paid what I am worth, but I want to be pragmatic about this.
In March of this year I started at a tech start-up as a software developer. I really like my team and what I'm working on. The hang up is I am unhappy about my salary.
When I interviewed for the position only seven months ago I low-balled the number I was looking for. At the time this made sense - I didn't have a lot of experience, and when interviewing with other tech companies (mainly start-ups) the point was made numerous times that my asking salary was a bit high. I should note that my current company is well-funded, and offered me a little above my asking salary at the time.
Fast forward to today, and I am being aggressively pursued by another tech company. They are well-funded and culturally it feels like it would be a great fit working for them. They are well aware that I am happy with my current company and am not actively looking to leave. So long as the more technical interviews go well, I have a feeling that they would make a generous offer for me to join their team.
My first question is would it be ill-advised to go to management of my current company and ask for a raise to match what the second company is offering, if they do indeed make me an offer? What is the potential fallout for this?
My second question is about possibly taking the offer. I feel I am still new to this industry, as I've only been working in it for little over year up to this point. I want to show that I am not someone to job-hop, but leaving now would mitigate that. Is leaving my first job in an industry after only eight months a serious red flag in the future when/if I choose to work somewhere else in a few years?
Despite the fact I really enjoy working for my current company, feeling like I am burdened with student loan debt coupled with the everyday high living expenses of NYC is enough to make me want to jump ship. Ultimately, I want to get paid what I am worth, but I want to be pragmatic about this.
I think it's pretty normal for people to not stay at their first jobs out of college very long. After you get some actual experience, many times the best way to move up the ladder is with a new job. The place that hired you as an entry-level employee may not have opening when you finally have the experience to move up. I wouldn't let that stop you if this is something you want.
As for staying vs. going, I think you should only try to leverage your new offer into a higher salary if you actually want to stay at your current job. If you would stay if they match the offer, then go ahead and let them know you got an offer for $X and you are strongly considering it, but you wanted to talk to them first because your are happy in your current position. But if you feel like the new company's culture, location, job opening, etc. is going to be better for, just leave without dicking your current company around. What I think looks douchey and probably burns bridges is leveraging an offer to see if your current work place will match and then leaving for the new job anyway, even if they do match or get very close. If you leverage the offer, I think you need to be very clear about under what circumstances you'll stay and under which you won't. Again, I think I would only leverage the offer if you actually do want to stay at your current office.
So really, all of this is to say, the first question that needs to be answered, that I don't see an answer to in your question is this: Salary aside, where do you want to work? If it's the new company, go to the new company. If it's your current company, try to leverage the offer for a higher salary.
posted by AppleTurnover at 4:47 PM on November 2, 2014 [3 favorites]
As for staying vs. going, I think you should only try to leverage your new offer into a higher salary if you actually want to stay at your current job. If you would stay if they match the offer, then go ahead and let them know you got an offer for $X and you are strongly considering it, but you wanted to talk to them first because your are happy in your current position. But if you feel like the new company's culture, location, job opening, etc. is going to be better for, just leave without dicking your current company around. What I think looks douchey and probably burns bridges is leveraging an offer to see if your current work place will match and then leaving for the new job anyway, even if they do match or get very close. If you leverage the offer, I think you need to be very clear about under what circumstances you'll stay and under which you won't. Again, I think I would only leverage the offer if you actually do want to stay at your current office.
So really, all of this is to say, the first question that needs to be answered, that I don't see an answer to in your question is this: Salary aside, where do you want to work? If it's the new company, go to the new company. If it's your current company, try to leverage the offer for a higher salary.
posted by AppleTurnover at 4:47 PM on November 2, 2014 [3 favorites]
If you want to be at the new company, do it.
Don't bother with counteroffers. If you're as junior as you're describing, then staying at a tech company after you've made it clear you're willing to leave for money reasons means you'll never advance and never be taken seriously by management again. You will be first on the chopping block when layoffs come around.
posted by erst at 5:06 PM on November 2, 2014 [2 favorites]
Don't bother with counteroffers. If you're as junior as you're describing, then staying at a tech company after you've made it clear you're willing to leave for money reasons means you'll never advance and never be taken seriously by management again. You will be first on the chopping block when layoffs come around.
posted by erst at 5:06 PM on November 2, 2014 [2 favorites]
Did the counter-offer thing before and it led to a higher salary at the NEW company. Because they made their offer with knowledge of the old company's counter-offer. Unless you are unusually cool about the whole thing, (I'm not) it's pretty stressful. I don't think I would do something like that again. Too much stress and too much potential to burn bridges.
It seems like in the tech industry right now (2014), you can figure out what you'd like to make within reason, and just ask for it. Pick a number you can come down from a little. Also, counter to a lot of negotiation advice, I've found that naming the salary figure ahead of an offer works well if the position you are going into has a wide salary range tied to qualifications that are hard to judge objectively. E.g. You get to make the initial claim that you are a $100k, $150k, or $200k/year professional and frame the negotiations. This is what I'm seeing for high level IT jobs right now, particularly with domain knowledge, e.g. finance, analytics. Other industries seem better at figuring out what people should be paid than IT, and it is less ambiguous.
Overall point: I would not get caught up in using counteroffers to negotiate. These may end up limiting you and damaging relationships. Figure out some reasonable ideal to request and just ask.
posted by ErikH2000 at 5:11 PM on November 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
It seems like in the tech industry right now (2014), you can figure out what you'd like to make within reason, and just ask for it. Pick a number you can come down from a little. Also, counter to a lot of negotiation advice, I've found that naming the salary figure ahead of an offer works well if the position you are going into has a wide salary range tied to qualifications that are hard to judge objectively. E.g. You get to make the initial claim that you are a $100k, $150k, or $200k/year professional and frame the negotiations. This is what I'm seeing for high level IT jobs right now, particularly with domain knowledge, e.g. finance, analytics. Other industries seem better at figuring out what people should be paid than IT, and it is less ambiguous.
Overall point: I would not get caught up in using counteroffers to negotiate. These may end up limiting you and damaging relationships. Figure out some reasonable ideal to request and just ask.
posted by ErikH2000 at 5:11 PM on November 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
1) My recommendation is to go ahead and ask for a raise, but: a) do your research first. Look around online and see what people in your position, in your locale, are really earning. Don't just go by job title, actually look at the job responsibilities. Some open positions online will post a salary range. See how you fit into that, both currently and what you are aiming for. Too many tech grads come into the workforce nowadays with overestimates of what the going rate is, and you've (hopefully) learned as much. And, b) Don't frame it as "Can you match this offer from company B?". Present it as why you deserve more. List your accomplishments, and provide tangible details on how they have benefited your team and/or the organization. But be realistic. You've only been there 8 months; I suspect they may respond with the promise of a potential merit increase on your 1-year anniversary, assuming your employer reviews staff based on their hire date.
2) What saeculorum said. Go for it now if you want, but don't make 8-month assignments a habit.
I've never been a fan of the notion that you should divulge that you want a raise based on what company B offered you. This tips me off that you're looking, and not committed your current job. If you are an absolutely stellar part of my team, then yes, I'm going to actively look for ways to keep you on board. But if not, then just based on the fact that I know you're on the fence, I'm going to favor giving the better work assignments to someone who I'm not expecting to jump ship. If you want more, just tell me, along with some evidence that shows you're worth it. Your own understanding of what value you bring to my team can be enough for me to go to bat for you.
Last note: In technology, please don't underestimate the value of liking your job and what you do / who you do it with. A number of people on my team are people who had left, and actually came back when they discovered that no, the BS they had to put up with over at Co. B wasn't worth the extra money. There may be more grass on the other side but it's not always greener.
posted by SquidLips at 5:12 PM on November 2, 2014 [6 favorites]
2) What saeculorum said. Go for it now if you want, but don't make 8-month assignments a habit.
I've never been a fan of the notion that you should divulge that you want a raise based on what company B offered you. This tips me off that you're looking, and not committed your current job. If you are an absolutely stellar part of my team, then yes, I'm going to actively look for ways to keep you on board. But if not, then just based on the fact that I know you're on the fence, I'm going to favor giving the better work assignments to someone who I'm not expecting to jump ship. If you want more, just tell me, along with some evidence that shows you're worth it. Your own understanding of what value you bring to my team can be enough for me to go to bat for you.
Last note: In technology, please don't underestimate the value of liking your job and what you do / who you do it with. A number of people on my team are people who had left, and actually came back when they discovered that no, the BS they had to put up with over at Co. B wasn't worth the extra money. There may be more grass on the other side but it's not always greener.
posted by SquidLips at 5:12 PM on November 2, 2014 [6 favorites]
Go for the other company and ask for more more money. Getting a counter offer is just temporary before you leave for good, the company you work for now no longer respects you, and you no longer respect them.
posted by TheAdamist at 5:50 PM on November 2, 2014
posted by TheAdamist at 5:50 PM on November 2, 2014
You should ask for a raise, not a counteroffer. You are paid below market and deserve more; while true that you may have a better offer, that opens up a can of worms.
posted by J. Wilson at 6:53 PM on November 2, 2014
posted by J. Wilson at 6:53 PM on November 2, 2014
Do you want to stay or go? I would make that decision independent of salary, personally-- Job satisfaction is about the total package.
If you really want to stay, then talk to your current company, but don't do it because of the counteroffer. I have had employees who come to me and say: "I really like working here, but the salary is keeping me from being really happy. I started off with a lower salary point because of lack of experience, but I now feel like I've gained the experience I need to earn more. If I don't see the opportunity for that here, then I have to go somewhere else." If someone's honest with me in that way, and if I can support them, I do.
Sometimes the answer isn't what they want to hear, but then at least we can have a realistic discussion with no hard feelings. But don't do this unless you really do want to stay-- there's nothing worse than going to a lot of effort with HR for an employee who has already got their head out the door. It's like marriage counseling when one partner is having an affair-- a good way to make enemies. If you really want to stay, try to make it work *first* before interviewing with a new firm.
If someone comes to me and says "I've already got a counteroffer from another company, meet it or I go" then I tell them to leave. I only want employees who want to work for my company, and someone for whom salary is the reason to stay or leave isn't the kind of employee I want to have on board. But that's me. I want people in my company who want to work for my company, so who are attracted to the company values and opportunities. Someone who only wants the highest offer isn't in it for the long haul and I'm not in it for short term employees.
Is 8 months a red flag? Probably not, if it's the only incident on your cv. It's a little bit trickier if you establish a pattern of jumping, but for a first job I wouldn't think it would be a dealbreaker.
posted by frumiousb at 7:53 PM on November 2, 2014 [3 favorites]
If you really want to stay, then talk to your current company, but don't do it because of the counteroffer. I have had employees who come to me and say: "I really like working here, but the salary is keeping me from being really happy. I started off with a lower salary point because of lack of experience, but I now feel like I've gained the experience I need to earn more. If I don't see the opportunity for that here, then I have to go somewhere else." If someone's honest with me in that way, and if I can support them, I do.
Sometimes the answer isn't what they want to hear, but then at least we can have a realistic discussion with no hard feelings. But don't do this unless you really do want to stay-- there's nothing worse than going to a lot of effort with HR for an employee who has already got their head out the door. It's like marriage counseling when one partner is having an affair-- a good way to make enemies. If you really want to stay, try to make it work *first* before interviewing with a new firm.
If someone comes to me and says "I've already got a counteroffer from another company, meet it or I go" then I tell them to leave. I only want employees who want to work for my company, and someone for whom salary is the reason to stay or leave isn't the kind of employee I want to have on board. But that's me. I want people in my company who want to work for my company, so who are attracted to the company values and opportunities. Someone who only wants the highest offer isn't in it for the long haul and I'm not in it for short term employees.
Is 8 months a red flag? Probably not, if it's the only incident on your cv. It's a little bit trickier if you establish a pattern of jumping, but for a first job I wouldn't think it would be a dealbreaker.
posted by frumiousb at 7:53 PM on November 2, 2014 [3 favorites]
There are a lot of moving parts in this question, so I'm just going to type things that might be relevant.
1. I'm not sure what "not a lot of experience" means but I'm pretty sure that "not a lot of experience" + seven months is still not a lot of experience. It is possible, but not likely, that you are worth significantly more after seven months than you were worth before.
2. If the other company is offering you well above market and you don't have a bunch of very specific experience that they need . . . why are they doing that? There are both good and bad reasons.
3. You absolutely need to figure out what market rate is for your skillset and experience. Unfortunately, one of the best ways to do that is to interview a lot. You can also get a reasonable idea by talking to recruiters.
4. If you are both being paid well below market AND have a compelling financial reason other than "I want more money", I (as a manager) would not think poorly of you for asking me to match your offer. Paying off student loan debt is a pretty serious quality of life issue and I know lots of people who take crappy jobs to pay them off ASAP. But I'm not all managers. Some managers will take any interviewing as a red flag.
5. You know you like your current job. You only think you'll like the next one. That difference is important. Many awful jobs look great during the interview.
6. As others have said, one short gig is not a problem. Several short ones in a row definitely is, so definitely try to stick out the next one for a little while.
posted by toomuchpete at 10:16 PM on November 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
1. I'm not sure what "not a lot of experience" means but I'm pretty sure that "not a lot of experience" + seven months is still not a lot of experience. It is possible, but not likely, that you are worth significantly more after seven months than you were worth before.
2. If the other company is offering you well above market and you don't have a bunch of very specific experience that they need . . . why are they doing that? There are both good and bad reasons.
3. You absolutely need to figure out what market rate is for your skillset and experience. Unfortunately, one of the best ways to do that is to interview a lot. You can also get a reasonable idea by talking to recruiters.
4. If you are both being paid well below market AND have a compelling financial reason other than "I want more money", I (as a manager) would not think poorly of you for asking me to match your offer. Paying off student loan debt is a pretty serious quality of life issue and I know lots of people who take crappy jobs to pay them off ASAP. But I'm not all managers. Some managers will take any interviewing as a red flag.
5. You know you like your current job. You only think you'll like the next one. That difference is important. Many awful jobs look great during the interview.
6. As others have said, one short gig is not a problem. Several short ones in a row definitely is, so definitely try to stick out the next one for a little while.
posted by toomuchpete at 10:16 PM on November 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
I'm the first person to say 'money talks, bullshit walks.' But, if you're happy in your new job, except for the money, then without divulging that you're looking, have a conversation with your boss about dough.
"Linus, I really like working at Innotech and I've learned so much in the time since I've started working here. We're a little over half way through my first year here, and I wanted to discuss a path to promotion and a raise. Since I've started I've accomplished, Foo, Bah and Blah. I've saved the company $$ and increased productivity. I believe that given my performance that I should be evaluated for the Sr. Developer position and I wanted to know what you would need to see from me to make that happen at my first year review."
Notice that you're not demanding it right now, but laying the groundwork to make it happen in the near future. You're being very specific about what you want and when you want it. That lets your manager either agree with you, and set up a path, or you may find out that it won't be possible any time soon. This is important because apart and aside from having someone steal you away, they're honestly evaluating your worth to them, as it stands today.
If the signals you're getting aren't positive, or if you feel that they're disengenuous, then if the other job is offered to you, take it.
I wouldn't bother using a new job to squeeze a raise out of my current job. It sends all the wrong signals.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 5:30 AM on November 3, 2014 [3 favorites]
"Linus, I really like working at Innotech and I've learned so much in the time since I've started working here. We're a little over half way through my first year here, and I wanted to discuss a path to promotion and a raise. Since I've started I've accomplished, Foo, Bah and Blah. I've saved the company $$ and increased productivity. I believe that given my performance that I should be evaluated for the Sr. Developer position and I wanted to know what you would need to see from me to make that happen at my first year review."
Notice that you're not demanding it right now, but laying the groundwork to make it happen in the near future. You're being very specific about what you want and when you want it. That lets your manager either agree with you, and set up a path, or you may find out that it won't be possible any time soon. This is important because apart and aside from having someone steal you away, they're honestly evaluating your worth to them, as it stands today.
If the signals you're getting aren't positive, or if you feel that they're disengenuous, then if the other job is offered to you, take it.
I wouldn't bother using a new job to squeeze a raise out of my current job. It sends all the wrong signals.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 5:30 AM on November 3, 2014 [3 favorites]
If you are both being paid well below market AND have a compelling financial reason other than "I want more money", I (as a manager) would not think poorly of you for asking me to match your offer. Paying off student loan debt is a pretty serious quality of life issue and I know lots of people who take crappy jobs to pay them off ASAP. But I'm not all managers. Some managers will take any interviewing as a red flag.
I want to caution you that you should not present any personal financial reasons as relevant to why you need more money. I pay my employees based on their value to the organization, not based on their personal circumstances; anything else is giving unfair weight to issues that have nothing to do with work. I would think poorly of an employee who asked me for a raise based on anything other than what they were doing for our company.
I'm not sure that is what 'compelling financial reason' means in the quoted excerpt, but I wanted to make sure you knew that it's a very bad strategy to go in asking for a raise based on outside reasons that aren't 'here is the market rate for what I do, I need to be paid appropriately'.
posted by winna at 6:01 AM on November 3, 2014 [6 favorites]
I want to caution you that you should not present any personal financial reasons as relevant to why you need more money. I pay my employees based on their value to the organization, not based on their personal circumstances; anything else is giving unfair weight to issues that have nothing to do with work. I would think poorly of an employee who asked me for a raise based on anything other than what they were doing for our company.
I'm not sure that is what 'compelling financial reason' means in the quoted excerpt, but I wanted to make sure you knew that it's a very bad strategy to go in asking for a raise based on outside reasons that aren't 'here is the market rate for what I do, I need to be paid appropriately'.
posted by winna at 6:01 AM on November 3, 2014 [6 favorites]
I'm not sure that is what 'compelling financial reason' means in the quoted excerpt, but I wanted to make sure you knew that it's a very bad strategy to go in asking for a raise based on outside reasons that aren't 'here is the market rate for what I do, I need to be paid appropriately'.
Simply reading the part you quoted would clue you in: this is about matching an offer. If you have good data about what market rate is for your position, you don't need an offer to be matched, you need market rate to be matched. But some concerns were expressed above that bringing an offer to an employer and asking them to match it would send up "red flags" that the employee was just looking for money and wasn't a long-term prospect.
I don't really agree that that's a good way for managers to approach hiring and retention, but I can't deny that that's how some managers see things.
For that sort of manager, having a compelling financial situation is a good way to demonstrate that this is about basic quality of life rather than just sheer greed.
FWIW: "market rate" is sort of a guess anyway, since employees are not interchangeable commodities. We're not talking about pork bellies, here.
posted by toomuchpete at 8:15 AM on November 3, 2014
Simply reading the part you quoted would clue you in: this is about matching an offer. If you have good data about what market rate is for your position, you don't need an offer to be matched, you need market rate to be matched. But some concerns were expressed above that bringing an offer to an employer and asking them to match it would send up "red flags" that the employee was just looking for money and wasn't a long-term prospect.
I don't really agree that that's a good way for managers to approach hiring and retention, but I can't deny that that's how some managers see things.
For that sort of manager, having a compelling financial situation is a good way to demonstrate that this is about basic quality of life rather than just sheer greed.
FWIW: "market rate" is sort of a guess anyway, since employees are not interchangeable commodities. We're not talking about pork bellies, here.
posted by toomuchpete at 8:15 AM on November 3, 2014
But some concerns were expressed above that bringing an offer to an employer and asking them to match it would send up "red flags" that the employee was just looking for money and wasn't a long-term prospect.
I don't really agree that that's a good way for managers to approach hiring and retention, but I can't deny that that's how some managers see things.
Just idly curious, but why not? Just talking from personal experience, someone whose only point about staying is money is someone who isn't going to work out anyhow. When I was newer at management, I bid for employees, and it generally ended badly. If they're already that close to leaving, it's usually better to let them go. There's a difference between "I notice I'm getting a lot of calls from recruiters and this has made me think" and "I made it to round 5 with company B and you have to match or outbid them to keep me here."
For that sort of manager, having a compelling financial situation is a good way to demonstrate that this is about basic quality of life rather than just sheer greed.
That would not work for me, though you may be right that it would work for some people. It's honestly something I feel pretty strongly should not influence a salary discussion, for ethical reasons.
A life situation can matter a lot when looking at some aspects of the job (i.e., sick child and travel requirements) but not when it comes to money. I'm old enough to remember being a waitress in a restaurant where male servers were automatically paid more because it was assumed they had/would have a family to support while women were assumed to be making hobby money.
Taking personal situation into account for determining salary is a slippery and (IMO) pretty unethical slope. (Does a coworker with children *deserve* a raise more than a single middle aged woman?)
For a salary discussion, I would want to talk about:
posted by frumiousb at 3:12 PM on November 3, 2014 [2 favorites]
I don't really agree that that's a good way for managers to approach hiring and retention, but I can't deny that that's how some managers see things.
Just idly curious, but why not? Just talking from personal experience, someone whose only point about staying is money is someone who isn't going to work out anyhow. When I was newer at management, I bid for employees, and it generally ended badly. If they're already that close to leaving, it's usually better to let them go. There's a difference between "I notice I'm getting a lot of calls from recruiters and this has made me think" and "I made it to round 5 with company B and you have to match or outbid them to keep me here."
For that sort of manager, having a compelling financial situation is a good way to demonstrate that this is about basic quality of life rather than just sheer greed.
That would not work for me, though you may be right that it would work for some people. It's honestly something I feel pretty strongly should not influence a salary discussion, for ethical reasons.
A life situation can matter a lot when looking at some aspects of the job (i.e., sick child and travel requirements) but not when it comes to money. I'm old enough to remember being a waitress in a restaurant where male servers were automatically paid more because it was assumed they had/would have a family to support while women were assumed to be making hobby money.
Taking personal situation into account for determining salary is a slippery and (IMO) pretty unethical slope. (Does a coworker with children *deserve* a raise more than a single middle aged woman?)
For a salary discussion, I would want to talk about:
- Comparable salaries in the company. (Do I make as much as the other people in the same role?)
- Market benchmark (to a lesser degree than the internal benchmark. As noted above, all packages involve trade off-- a startup could offer a much higher salary, but much less job security.)
- Changes in qualifications or experience.
posted by frumiousb at 3:12 PM on November 3, 2014 [2 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
Look up "counteroffers" - you'd be asking for one. You may get one unsolicited anyways when you give notice if you are particularly valuable to your company. The general consensus across all industries is that counteroffers are not really worth taking - it doesn't change much with the working environment and may end up with you being laid off down the road when your company can find another person to replace you. The tech industry is a bit more lenient about such things, as it is generally realized that tech employees are highly valuable and constantly looking around for other options. However, you need to make a judgement about what sort of company you're working for - is it the type that keeps low-paying labor around to keep costs low, or is it the type that tries to keep valuable employees around? I'd suggest that more often than not, it is the former, because if it's the latter, they haven't done a very good job of it so far.
Is leaving my first job in an industry after only eight months a serious red flag in the future[?]
Leaving any single job at eight months, especially a first job, is not a red flag. Continual job hopping (which I define in the tech industry as working somewhere less than 1.5 years) is a red flag. You are not nearly at that point, although I'd suggest that you stay at your next position longer if at all possible.
posted by saeculorum at 4:30 PM on November 2, 2014 [3 favorites]