Studying Russian Literature in France
May 4, 2014 11:11 AM Subscribe
What do modern-day students in France think of the use of French in Russian literature?
Response by poster: No, just curious about what would come up in a high school class in France on the subject.
posted by slowlikemolasses at 3:59 PM on May 4, 2014
posted by slowlikemolasses at 3:59 PM on May 4, 2014
I have no especial knowledge in the matter, but I believe French high school students barely touch on Russian novels, instead of focusing heavily on French novels.
If it did come up, the simple explanation that French was predominant language of the aristocracy for a time would suffice.
That being said, if you look at the Russian canon, it has been built very consciously around writers writing in Russian.
posted by smoke at 4:17 PM on May 4, 2014 [1 favorite]
If it did come up, the simple explanation that French was predominant language of the aristocracy for a time would suffice.
That being said, if you look at the Russian canon, it has been built very consciously around writers writing in Russian.
posted by smoke at 4:17 PM on May 4, 2014 [1 favorite]
I'm still not sure I understand your question, but it doesn't seem to me like there would be any difference in this curriculum between the French literature class and any other literature class where these works were being read. As an American reader with English as my first language, my thoughts when I come across a different language in the book are usually:
1. What does this mean?
Then I check the footnotes/endnotes, see if I can figure it out based on context or cognates, and/or look it up online.
2. What is the literary purpose of this switch to [language]? What does it say about the story/characters/narrator/etc?
In the case of French in Russian lit, it's usually realism pointing to the aristocratic use of French following the push of Peter and Catherine the Great to westernize. Often it is set against more nationalistic/conservative characters to strengthen the class divides and emphasize whatever agenda the author or narrator has. Sometimes there are arguably more important symbolic reasons (for example, in Brothers Karamazov [JSTOR link]).
I would imagine French speakers would usually have the luxury of skipping question 1 and jumping straight to question 2.
posted by papayaninja at 4:20 PM on May 4, 2014 [1 favorite]
1. What does this mean?
Then I check the footnotes/endnotes, see if I can figure it out based on context or cognates, and/or look it up online.
2. What is the literary purpose of this switch to [language]? What does it say about the story/characters/narrator/etc?
In the case of French in Russian lit, it's usually realism pointing to the aristocratic use of French following the push of Peter and Catherine the Great to westernize. Often it is set against more nationalistic/conservative characters to strengthen the class divides and emphasize whatever agenda the author or narrator has. Sometimes there are arguably more important symbolic reasons (for example, in Brothers Karamazov [JSTOR link]).
I would imagine French speakers would usually have the luxury of skipping question 1 and jumping straight to question 2.
posted by papayaninja at 4:20 PM on May 4, 2014 [1 favorite]
I would think, if they studied Russian novels at all, they would learn that most Russian nobility spoke French, some exclusively and some didn't even know Russian.
The use of French in many classic Russian novels is because that was in fact the language many of the characters would have spoken.
As for WHY that would have been, they'd have to spend time studying Russian history, which I would imagine would be limited since they are likely to spend more time on French history, just like US schools spend more time on American history.
As for what they think of the language itself as used in the novels? Probably much how we view novels written in English in the same time period --old, cultural to its time, but understandable.
posted by zizzle at 4:29 PM on May 4, 2014
The use of French in many classic Russian novels is because that was in fact the language many of the characters would have spoken.
As for WHY that would have been, they'd have to spend time studying Russian history, which I would imagine would be limited since they are likely to spend more time on French history, just like US schools spend more time on American history.
As for what they think of the language itself as used in the novels? Probably much how we view novels written in English in the same time period --old, cultural to its time, but understandable.
posted by zizzle at 4:29 PM on May 4, 2014
Response by poster: Maybe the question could be shifted a bit to: What do French students think about "the aristocratic use of French following the push of Peter and Catherine the Great to westernize?"
But if you are, have been, or know a French high school student, then feel free to answer the broader question.
posted by slowlikemolasses at 4:30 PM on May 4, 2014
But if you are, have been, or know a French high school student, then feel free to answer the broader question.
posted by slowlikemolasses at 4:30 PM on May 4, 2014
What do modern day British students think of the use of English in India?
Language is very mobile, and high school students are high school students.
I think few of them probably care beyond what they need to know to pass a class......
posted by zizzle at 4:34 PM on May 4, 2014 [2 favorites]
Language is very mobile, and high school students are high school students.
I think few of them probably care beyond what they need to know to pass a class......
posted by zizzle at 4:34 PM on May 4, 2014 [2 favorites]
Best answer: Just jumping back I'm to add - and forgive me if this is stating the obvious - I think perhaps as an American you are maybe not realising the everyday-ness of multi-lingual shenanigans in continental Europe. The ability to speak more than one language is so common as to be unremarkable - and this has always been the case for the elite. So it wouldn't be too surprising. Courts across Europe often used different languages at different times, and French was somewhat of a diplomatic lingua franca (heh heh) for more than a century.
No one would think much about it at all, really.
posted by smoke at 4:34 PM on May 4, 2014 [3 favorites]
No one would think much about it at all, really.
posted by smoke at 4:34 PM on May 4, 2014 [3 favorites]
Response by poster: This question is not at all about the facts of the use of French in Russia society, but merely about the perceptions surrounding those facts.
posted by slowlikemolasses at 4:35 PM on May 4, 2014
posted by slowlikemolasses at 4:35 PM on May 4, 2014
Response by poster: But wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that discussions in a French film class and an American film class would take different paths when a stereotypical smooth-talking Frenchman comes on screen? I believe that modern day British students would have very specific thoughts on the use of English in India, verbalized or not.
If the internet could grant me access to a translated transcription from inside of a French high school class on the day they discussed Dostoevsky, I would read that instead of having asked this question, to give you an insight into my thoughts on this question.
"No one would think much about it at all, really." is exactly the type of response I wanted, as long as it came from a place of direct knowledge, and not just an assumption.
posted by slowlikemolasses at 4:55 PM on May 4, 2014
If the internet could grant me access to a translated transcription from inside of a French high school class on the day they discussed Dostoevsky, I would read that instead of having asked this question, to give you an insight into my thoughts on this question.
"No one would think much about it at all, really." is exactly the type of response I wanted, as long as it came from a place of direct knowledge, and not just an assumption.
posted by slowlikemolasses at 4:55 PM on May 4, 2014
Mefite Fraula has lived in France for many years, you could try reaching out to her?
posted by smoke at 5:25 PM on May 4, 2014
posted by smoke at 5:25 PM on May 4, 2014
Best answer: To answer this question, either 1) you have to be French, or 2) you have to have made a study of the issue. Neither is the case for me, so I didn't answer; I wish others would adopt the same approach. There is not a single "answer" in this thread that is responsive to the question; it's all vaguely hostile variants of "Why are you asking this dumb question which makes no sense to me?" The question is about how French readers react to the frequent use of French in Russian novels; it seems an interesting question to me, and I look forward to seeing it answered by someone who actually knows what they're talking about.
posted by languagehat at 5:38 PM on May 4, 2014 [11 favorites]
posted by languagehat at 5:38 PM on May 4, 2014 [11 favorites]
Fyi, op, I asked my French friend for my original answer; she said they didn't do any Russian classics (eighties, southern France). As language hat acerbicly noted, the rest is conjecture.
posted by smoke at 6:55 PM on May 4, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by smoke at 6:55 PM on May 4, 2014 [1 favorite]
So you're interested specifically in high-school-age students' thoughts?
If you found a French scholar who studies Russian literature, they might be able to shed more light on it.
posted by clockzero at 9:14 PM on May 4, 2014
If you found a French scholar who studies Russian literature, they might be able to shed more light on it.
posted by clockzero at 9:14 PM on May 4, 2014
Best answer: Hi yes – been here for 17 years now, am French (and American), know plenty of high school students, studied literature, my first foreign language was actually Russian and I chose French in middle school in large part because it showed up so often in Russian novels.
French is used in a lot of non-French literature. As for high school in France, Russian literature is only studied if you opt for it, and even then, it's difficult to find, just as it is in the States. If you're curious about French ideas about it, here's one discussion about studying the language (namely lack of options to do so in high school), and another more specifically about literature; none of them mention studying it at school.
As for reactions to it, other commenters have given you good responses: French was part of Russian history. This is known in France. What do they think of the aristocratic use of French? Again, this is a very well-known phenomenon; the French are quite proud of the history of their language and its prominence in diplomacy, and thus aristocratic circles. In short, then, "proud", but this is not specific to Russian. It doesn't need to be. French used in Russian literature is just one aspect of French used in literatures around the world; French used in Russian aristocratic circles is likewise only one aspect of French used by nobility in dozens of countries.
To get back to Russian literature in France and address that part of your question more specifically, I studied comparative literature in Nice for my Masters degree; university is a better focus for your question. There is a lot of interest on the use of French in foreign literatures, especially Russian in this part of France, since the royal family vacationed here and there is still a pronounced Russian presence. I can stroll down Boulevard Gambetta and cross Russian stores, not to mention all the shops with говорим по русски set between "Parliamo italiano" and Japanese. There is no stereotypical reaction to it once you're at that level, though.
France is a large country and generalizations regarding other large foreign countries simply aren't possible. Your run-of-the-mill French high school student cares about as much about Russian literature as one would in the US (and this is a rather reliable comparison since the US has ties of a similar strength to Russia as France does, although for different historical and societal reasons). For a question such as yours, you start to get genuinely interesting responses when you look at the areas of France in which there is enough interest in Russia to support educational programs that allow investigation of it. These are mainly in Paris and Nice, and are at university level.
As for reactions to stereotypes that you brought up in your last reply, Russian stereotypes in mass media here, and reactions to them, are roughly equivalent to those in the States. Where you start to see differences, however, is on a local level, again. We regularly have Russian exhibitions here in Nice that are rich and diverse, with brochures in French, Italian, and Russian, and residents here know better than to assume that just because someone is speaking Russian, they would be Russian. (I hear Russian every time I take the tram. It's that common here.)
posted by fraula at 12:49 AM on May 5, 2014 [5 favorites]
French is used in a lot of non-French literature. As for high school in France, Russian literature is only studied if you opt for it, and even then, it's difficult to find, just as it is in the States. If you're curious about French ideas about it, here's one discussion about studying the language (namely lack of options to do so in high school), and another more specifically about literature; none of them mention studying it at school.
As for reactions to it, other commenters have given you good responses: French was part of Russian history. This is known in France. What do they think of the aristocratic use of French? Again, this is a very well-known phenomenon; the French are quite proud of the history of their language and its prominence in diplomacy, and thus aristocratic circles. In short, then, "proud", but this is not specific to Russian. It doesn't need to be. French used in Russian literature is just one aspect of French used in literatures around the world; French used in Russian aristocratic circles is likewise only one aspect of French used by nobility in dozens of countries.
To get back to Russian literature in France and address that part of your question more specifically, I studied comparative literature in Nice for my Masters degree; university is a better focus for your question. There is a lot of interest on the use of French in foreign literatures, especially Russian in this part of France, since the royal family vacationed here and there is still a pronounced Russian presence. I can stroll down Boulevard Gambetta and cross Russian stores, not to mention all the shops with говорим по русски set between "Parliamo italiano" and Japanese. There is no stereotypical reaction to it once you're at that level, though.
France is a large country and generalizations regarding other large foreign countries simply aren't possible. Your run-of-the-mill French high school student cares about as much about Russian literature as one would in the US (and this is a rather reliable comparison since the US has ties of a similar strength to Russia as France does, although for different historical and societal reasons). For a question such as yours, you start to get genuinely interesting responses when you look at the areas of France in which there is enough interest in Russia to support educational programs that allow investigation of it. These are mainly in Paris and Nice, and are at university level.
As for reactions to stereotypes that you brought up in your last reply, Russian stereotypes in mass media here, and reactions to them, are roughly equivalent to those in the States. Where you start to see differences, however, is on a local level, again. We regularly have Russian exhibitions here in Nice that are rich and diverse, with brochures in French, Italian, and Russian, and residents here know better than to assume that just because someone is speaking Russian, they would be Russian. (I hear Russian every time I take the tram. It's that common here.)
posted by fraula at 12:49 AM on May 5, 2014 [5 favorites]
FWIW and faute de mieux, here's an answer from an Englishman who studied French and Russian at University, and also studied Peter the Great in History at High School.
This was all quite a while ago and I don't have my notes any more, but for me, a short passage of French in a Russian book was like an oasis in the desert. Finally! Something I can understand without having to think too hard. I found Russian considerably more complicated to parse than French.
It's worth noting that, even at University level, we didn't actually read many full books in the original Russian. In fact, over my five year course I can only remember reading Pushkin's 'Queen of Spades' and Tolstoy's 'Master and Man' — both nice and short — in the original Russian. We read plenty of passages and extracts from other books, but if we had tried to tackle 'The Brothers Karamazov' in the original, we would still be reading it now.
What I did — I can't speak for the rest of my class — was to read translations of the books we studied extracts from. If a French student were to do the same, they would be reading a book translated into French which also contained passages of untranslated French... these would probably be footnoted or italicised or marked in some way to indicate that it was written in French in the original. A curious mind might wonder why, but I wouldn't imagine that this line of inquiry would go very far at High School level.
I remember having a brief discussion about the whys and wherefores of aristocratic French at the Russian court, including a few interesting diversions into linguistic crossovers like "bistro" / "bystro"... but I can't remember many more, I'm afraid.
I don't have much to add about Peter the Great and his westernising influence, either. Fancy Russians spoke French in order to appear to be fancy and western... there was also a reasonable amount of socialist / philosophical crossover between the two countries — vive la révolution! — which might make the average French student a bit more interested to dig deeper into this whole thing.
Hope this has helped a bit, sorry it's all a bit vague and conjectural :-)
posted by ZipRibbons at 1:03 AM on May 5, 2014 [1 favorite]
This was all quite a while ago and I don't have my notes any more, but for me, a short passage of French in a Russian book was like an oasis in the desert. Finally! Something I can understand without having to think too hard. I found Russian considerably more complicated to parse than French.
It's worth noting that, even at University level, we didn't actually read many full books in the original Russian. In fact, over my five year course I can only remember reading Pushkin's 'Queen of Spades' and Tolstoy's 'Master and Man' — both nice and short — in the original Russian. We read plenty of passages and extracts from other books, but if we had tried to tackle 'The Brothers Karamazov' in the original, we would still be reading it now.
What I did — I can't speak for the rest of my class — was to read translations of the books we studied extracts from. If a French student were to do the same, they would be reading a book translated into French which also contained passages of untranslated French... these would probably be footnoted or italicised or marked in some way to indicate that it was written in French in the original. A curious mind might wonder why, but I wouldn't imagine that this line of inquiry would go very far at High School level.
I remember having a brief discussion about the whys and wherefores of aristocratic French at the Russian court, including a few interesting diversions into linguistic crossovers like "bistro" / "bystro"... but I can't remember many more, I'm afraid.
I don't have much to add about Peter the Great and his westernising influence, either. Fancy Russians spoke French in order to appear to be fancy and western... there was also a reasonable amount of socialist / philosophical crossover between the two countries — vive la révolution! — which might make the average French student a bit more interested to dig deeper into this whole thing.
Hope this has helped a bit, sorry it's all a bit vague and conjectural :-)
posted by ZipRibbons at 1:03 AM on May 5, 2014 [1 favorite]
« Older Career sugestions for someone who wants to do more... | Can laptops run hotter or cooler depending on... Newer »
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by papayaninja at 3:03 PM on May 4, 2014