Should I expect more problems from my older car?
October 24, 2005 6:31 PM Subscribe
My old car didn't start up this morning - but is it likely to refuse to again?
I recently bought an '86 Buick Century (I know, shut up! It's all I could afford). I've had it about a week. This morning - a relatively chilly one - it simply refused to even turn over. Not even a cough or a sputter, no dash lights, nothing. Dead.
Then I noticed that I had left the 'interior lights' switch set. It's one of those vertical wheel style switches, where turning the wheel all the way up scales the dash lights up, then clicking the wheel up a notch turns on the dome lights. I had left it up, but not clicked, assuming that since no dash lights were on, it wasn't drawing any power. I also noticed that I had left the radio power button pressed in, and clicked it off.
Then I cursed and called a cab to get to work. (First day on the job, too - isn't that the way?)
So this afternoon I went and bought one of those chargeable jumpstarters to try to get it going. But this evening, when I went out to the car to get something, I noticed the dome light came on when I opened the door, so I tried the engine and it coughed a second and then started! So I drove it around for half an hour to build up a charge.
I read the date on the battery and I think it was installed in 2001. I know the man who owned the car before me - the father of a friend of mine - and he said he'd never had any problems starting it, and that the battery was good, but now I'm having second thoughts.
My question: what do I do now? It seems to be starting pretty consistently now; I've tried it a few times since then with no trouble, even though it's colder now (9:30 PM) than it was this morning. Do I get the battery tested, and, if so, where? If I need a new one, how much might it run me? And might the problem lie somewhere besides the battery itself?
(Sorry if this isn't enough info for a good diagnosis. This is my first car, and I'm having to learn on my feet. I'll take any advice I can get.)
I recently bought an '86 Buick Century (I know, shut up! It's all I could afford). I've had it about a week. This morning - a relatively chilly one - it simply refused to even turn over. Not even a cough or a sputter, no dash lights, nothing. Dead.
Then I noticed that I had left the 'interior lights' switch set. It's one of those vertical wheel style switches, where turning the wheel all the way up scales the dash lights up, then clicking the wheel up a notch turns on the dome lights. I had left it up, but not clicked, assuming that since no dash lights were on, it wasn't drawing any power. I also noticed that I had left the radio power button pressed in, and clicked it off.
Then I cursed and called a cab to get to work. (First day on the job, too - isn't that the way?)
So this afternoon I went and bought one of those chargeable jumpstarters to try to get it going. But this evening, when I went out to the car to get something, I noticed the dome light came on when I opened the door, so I tried the engine and it coughed a second and then started! So I drove it around for half an hour to build up a charge.
I read the date on the battery and I think it was installed in 2001. I know the man who owned the car before me - the father of a friend of mine - and he said he'd never had any problems starting it, and that the battery was good, but now I'm having second thoughts.
My question: what do I do now? It seems to be starting pretty consistently now; I've tried it a few times since then with no trouble, even though it's colder now (9:30 PM) than it was this morning. Do I get the battery tested, and, if so, where? If I need a new one, how much might it run me? And might the problem lie somewhere besides the battery itself?
(Sorry if this isn't enough info for a good diagnosis. This is my first car, and I'm having to learn on my feet. I'll take any advice I can get.)
You can get the battery (and the electrical system) tested at most auto parts stores. A new battery will run you about $50. Anything else that might be wrong costs more.
posted by smackfu at 6:43 PM on October 24, 2005
posted by smackfu at 6:43 PM on October 24, 2005
Response by poster: autojack, I did see that thread, but my AxMe search didn't find any questions specifically dealing with batteries that act dead but then seemingly come back to life.
posted by ruddhist at 6:52 PM on October 24, 2005
posted by ruddhist at 6:52 PM on October 24, 2005
Anecdotal, but maybe something to try if it happens again: my '91 jeep does this weird thing every now and then where nothing happens when I turn it over. I found out by accident that if I reseat the gear shift, either by wiggling it in Park or putting it into Reverse and then Park again, the car starts fine. (On one notable occasion, when I had the key in the On position, putting it into Reverse started the car; I'm glad I had my foot on the brake.)
Actually, now that I think about it, my '91 Buick once had the same gear-wiggling thing as well. It's never done it since.
But I would also recommend getting a new battery as soon as you're able. I find that batteries are fully reliable for three years and after that they get funny when the weather changes.
posted by Lyn Never at 7:01 PM on October 24, 2005
Actually, now that I think about it, my '91 Buick once had the same gear-wiggling thing as well. It's never done it since.
But I would also recommend getting a new battery as soon as you're able. I find that batteries are fully reliable for three years and after that they get funny when the weather changes.
posted by Lyn Never at 7:01 PM on October 24, 2005
> Anything else that might be wrong costs more
not necessarily -- a loose belt on the alternator is a possible culprit, and probably $15 to have fixed. See how much play there is in the belt: there should be very little, well under an inch, depending on the car.
posted by anadem at 7:04 PM on October 24, 2005
not necessarily -- a loose belt on the alternator is a possible culprit, and probably $15 to have fixed. See how much play there is in the belt: there should be very little, well under an inch, depending on the car.
posted by anadem at 7:04 PM on October 24, 2005
If you try cleaning the battery terminals and cables, wear eye protection and be conscious of which way the wind is blowing.
posted by MrZero at 7:16 PM on October 24, 2005
posted by MrZero at 7:16 PM on October 24, 2005
I would guess it's the starter, when you get a worn spot it will fail to turn over on occasion like that, but then it will start perfectly well. That or bad wiring.
posted by fshgrl at 7:54 PM on October 24, 2005
posted by fshgrl at 7:54 PM on October 24, 2005
As the variance in responses suggests, electrical problems can be hard to identify. If you know how, or know someone with a multimeter, this will give you some insight of battery condition, as well as the charging system.
posted by AllesKlar at 8:35 PM on October 24, 2005
posted by AllesKlar at 8:35 PM on October 24, 2005
Best answer: The relevant facts here are:
1) When your car won't start, you see no sign of electrical activity, at all. No dash lights, no starter relay click, nothing.
2) Later, without you doing anything to improve the situation, the car started.
Everything else you've told us is inference or conjecture.
The suggestion others have made to have your battery tested by an auto parts store is a good one, but I'd extend that to asking for a full charging system check, which will also include a measurement of alternator output, and an inspection of the alternator belt, pulleys, and maybe even a stethoscope check of the alternator bearings (the tech listens to the alternator while running to see if it has a bearing making unusual noise, indicating failure soon). After all, it's getting to be winter time, and a new battery won't fix other problems in the charging system. You may have a bad battery, and a bad cable, and or a bad alternator belt too. Everything in the charging system has to be up to snuff, if your car is going to start reliably this winter.
And because you'd probably like to feel you've learned something that may be of use later in all this, you may want to first make a few basic checks yourself, so I'll describe those.
First, make sure your battery is physically clean. Doesn't have to be sterile, but use some paper towels to wipe off any accumulation of dirt, oil, or grease on the top of the battery case, especially around the terminals and over the green "eye" if there is one. If you see visible corrosion on or near the battery posts or battery cable terminals, that's a clear sign that you probably have a leak in your battery case, permitting acid vapors and moisture from the battery to attack the terminals. So pay close attention to the dirt on and around your battery as you wipe it away, for clues as to where you may need to look closely for further problems. Pay attention too, to the hardware that holds your battery in place. A battery that moves is a battery that will fail. If the battery hold-down hardware hasn't been assembled correctly when the battery was replaced, or has been eaten through since then, it may have chafed through the battery case, or caused cracks in the case. You may need to replace any hold down hardware that is iffy. The metal or plastic tray that the battery sits on also needs to be fairly clean, and should be solid and able to support the weight of the battery with little, if any, "give."
Once you've made sure your battery is externally clean, you want to check the fluid levels in the cells, if the battery has removable cell caps. Newer batteries are so called "sealed units" but even "sealed" units may have removable caps to facilitate checking the specific gravity of the battery fluid, which can be a good test for a bad cell. But battery acid is obviously very corrosive, so if you do decide to look into a battery, be extremely careful, and absolutely wear eye protection, and don't have any open flame or cigarettes around. You should see the same level of fluid in each cell, and it should come to an internal ring mark in the filling stem of each cell. You may need a flashlight to see this. If the fluid in any cell is down, it's a pretty good indication the battery has a problem. Adding a little distilled water is a short term fix, but doing so dilutes the acid in at least that cell, and besides, there is some other reason why the fluid was low in the first place. Finally, if your battery has an "eye" on top, you should be able to easily see a solid green color in the eye. Anything else indicates a definite internal battery problem.
If your car fails to start again, I'd try to confirm for sure that you have no electrical power at all, before doing anything else. I know you're probably going to be angry, and under pressure to get somewhere, but a few minutes used well at that time could tell you a lot, so calm down, and get ready to learn something.
With the key in the accessory position, or run, if there is no accessory position, turn on the headlights, radio, dome lights, etc. If any or all electrical accessories work together without the engine running or the starter working, you may still have a bad battery, or many other problems, but you've ruled out the ignition switch, and demonstrated that at least some parts of the electrical system are getting some current from the battery, without any alternator current being supplied. If absolutely nothing is getting power, you have a either a major battery failure, or a very bad connection between the battery and the whole rest of the car. Battery cables can develop intermittent connections at the battery, or at the points the connect the battery to the engine, car frame, or major distribution point for electrical power. Battery cables can also break internally, although this is pretty rare, or can contribute to intermittent electrical operation in other ways. On older cars, the battery cables may have had aftermarket terminals spliced on, when the original terminals were damaged or corroded beyond use. You can try examining and flexing these thick cables along their lengths, and looking and feeling for cracked insulation, lumps, or voids indicating a bad cable, but you may need professional help to confirm any problems you think you find.
If some accessories do work, leave them on for a few minutes, and observe the battery closely, preferably with eye protection. You may hear a faint hissing noise, or see some tiny bubbles emanating from a small crack near the battery terminals, most likely the positive one, as the battery releases hydrogen gas in the process of producing electricity to power your accessories. If the battery case is cracked, you may also be able to wiggle the battery post a very little. You can also feel the battery terminals while doing this, to see if they are getting slightly warm. A battery in good condition will not make a noticeable noise, won't have any bubbles, and there shouldn't be any wiggle of the battery posts, nor should they get even barely detectably warm when supplying all the accessories with current. That's because a healthy battery should be able to supply dozens of times the current required by all your accessories simultaneously, as a normal load in starting your car. That large surge of current to your starter motor and engine is the so called "cold cranking load" and will be in the range of 250-450 amps, depending your battery and engine size. By comparison, your headlights, radio, dome lights, etc. all pull, together, only 10 to15 amps, so they should be no strain at all for a good battery and battery cables. Checking the cold cranking current of a battery requires a machine that can provide a big load, and measure big current, and it is the definitive check for internal battery problems such as dislodged insulator plates, cracked cell walls and other problems you can't see externally.
Obviously, if you find any of the conditions I've described, either while cleaning or checking your battery in a no start situation, you have good reason to replace it, along with any other questionable parts you find. But at least you'll feel there is a good reason for doing so, I hope, and the problem will be, in fact, cured.
posted by paulsc at 9:39 PM on October 24, 2005
1) When your car won't start, you see no sign of electrical activity, at all. No dash lights, no starter relay click, nothing.
2) Later, without you doing anything to improve the situation, the car started.
Everything else you've told us is inference or conjecture.
The suggestion others have made to have your battery tested by an auto parts store is a good one, but I'd extend that to asking for a full charging system check, which will also include a measurement of alternator output, and an inspection of the alternator belt, pulleys, and maybe even a stethoscope check of the alternator bearings (the tech listens to the alternator while running to see if it has a bearing making unusual noise, indicating failure soon). After all, it's getting to be winter time, and a new battery won't fix other problems in the charging system. You may have a bad battery, and a bad cable, and or a bad alternator belt too. Everything in the charging system has to be up to snuff, if your car is going to start reliably this winter.
And because you'd probably like to feel you've learned something that may be of use later in all this, you may want to first make a few basic checks yourself, so I'll describe those.
First, make sure your battery is physically clean. Doesn't have to be sterile, but use some paper towels to wipe off any accumulation of dirt, oil, or grease on the top of the battery case, especially around the terminals and over the green "eye" if there is one. If you see visible corrosion on or near the battery posts or battery cable terminals, that's a clear sign that you probably have a leak in your battery case, permitting acid vapors and moisture from the battery to attack the terminals. So pay close attention to the dirt on and around your battery as you wipe it away, for clues as to where you may need to look closely for further problems. Pay attention too, to the hardware that holds your battery in place. A battery that moves is a battery that will fail. If the battery hold-down hardware hasn't been assembled correctly when the battery was replaced, or has been eaten through since then, it may have chafed through the battery case, or caused cracks in the case. You may need to replace any hold down hardware that is iffy. The metal or plastic tray that the battery sits on also needs to be fairly clean, and should be solid and able to support the weight of the battery with little, if any, "give."
Once you've made sure your battery is externally clean, you want to check the fluid levels in the cells, if the battery has removable cell caps. Newer batteries are so called "sealed units" but even "sealed" units may have removable caps to facilitate checking the specific gravity of the battery fluid, which can be a good test for a bad cell. But battery acid is obviously very corrosive, so if you do decide to look into a battery, be extremely careful, and absolutely wear eye protection, and don't have any open flame or cigarettes around. You should see the same level of fluid in each cell, and it should come to an internal ring mark in the filling stem of each cell. You may need a flashlight to see this. If the fluid in any cell is down, it's a pretty good indication the battery has a problem. Adding a little distilled water is a short term fix, but doing so dilutes the acid in at least that cell, and besides, there is some other reason why the fluid was low in the first place. Finally, if your battery has an "eye" on top, you should be able to easily see a solid green color in the eye. Anything else indicates a definite internal battery problem.
If your car fails to start again, I'd try to confirm for sure that you have no electrical power at all, before doing anything else. I know you're probably going to be angry, and under pressure to get somewhere, but a few minutes used well at that time could tell you a lot, so calm down, and get ready to learn something.
With the key in the accessory position, or run, if there is no accessory position, turn on the headlights, radio, dome lights, etc. If any or all electrical accessories work together without the engine running or the starter working, you may still have a bad battery, or many other problems, but you've ruled out the ignition switch, and demonstrated that at least some parts of the electrical system are getting some current from the battery, without any alternator current being supplied. If absolutely nothing is getting power, you have a either a major battery failure, or a very bad connection between the battery and the whole rest of the car. Battery cables can develop intermittent connections at the battery, or at the points the connect the battery to the engine, car frame, or major distribution point for electrical power. Battery cables can also break internally, although this is pretty rare, or can contribute to intermittent electrical operation in other ways. On older cars, the battery cables may have had aftermarket terminals spliced on, when the original terminals were damaged or corroded beyond use. You can try examining and flexing these thick cables along their lengths, and looking and feeling for cracked insulation, lumps, or voids indicating a bad cable, but you may need professional help to confirm any problems you think you find.
If some accessories do work, leave them on for a few minutes, and observe the battery closely, preferably with eye protection. You may hear a faint hissing noise, or see some tiny bubbles emanating from a small crack near the battery terminals, most likely the positive one, as the battery releases hydrogen gas in the process of producing electricity to power your accessories. If the battery case is cracked, you may also be able to wiggle the battery post a very little. You can also feel the battery terminals while doing this, to see if they are getting slightly warm. A battery in good condition will not make a noticeable noise, won't have any bubbles, and there shouldn't be any wiggle of the battery posts, nor should they get even barely detectably warm when supplying all the accessories with current. That's because a healthy battery should be able to supply dozens of times the current required by all your accessories simultaneously, as a normal load in starting your car. That large surge of current to your starter motor and engine is the so called "cold cranking load" and will be in the range of 250-450 amps, depending your battery and engine size. By comparison, your headlights, radio, dome lights, etc. all pull, together, only 10 to15 amps, so they should be no strain at all for a good battery and battery cables. Checking the cold cranking current of a battery requires a machine that can provide a big load, and measure big current, and it is the definitive check for internal battery problems such as dislodged insulator plates, cracked cell walls and other problems you can't see externally.
Obviously, if you find any of the conditions I've described, either while cleaning or checking your battery in a no start situation, you have good reason to replace it, along with any other questionable parts you find. But at least you'll feel there is a good reason for doing so, I hope, and the problem will be, in fact, cured.
posted by paulsc at 9:39 PM on October 24, 2005
Okay.. You had run down the battery .. now you have charged it .
The next problem is the that your distributor has water/condensation in it. Dry it out. At nights if you have to park it somewhere chilly open the hood and cover the engine with a blanket or similar.
( WD40 might work as well although i dont like to add any more liquids into the system if possible )
( Speaking from experience; i have a 65 Mustang that i parked outside for the first time in 8 years a week ago and it wouldnt start until i dried out the distributor)
posted by stuartmm at 10:59 PM on October 24, 2005
The next problem is the that your distributor has water/condensation in it. Dry it out. At nights if you have to park it somewhere chilly open the hood and cover the engine with a blanket or similar.
( WD40 might work as well although i dont like to add any more liquids into the system if possible )
( Speaking from experience; i have a 65 Mustang that i parked outside for the first time in 8 years a week ago and it wouldnt start until i dried out the distributor)
posted by stuartmm at 10:59 PM on October 24, 2005
Before you bought the car, did you have it checked out by a mechanic?
posted by k8t at 3:05 AM on October 25, 2005
posted by k8t at 3:05 AM on October 25, 2005
Batteries will recover, a couple times when I've left my headlights on, I've found that turning off the lights and waiting a half hour will allow the car to start (doesn't work every time, but if you're waiting for a jumpstart anyway..). But yeah, clean the battery cables, an '85 gm car probably has side post terminals, so get a 6 point 5/16 wrench to unbolt them (negative first) and the special round wire brush to clean them. By the way, I've never had a car as new as yours, my current daily driver is a '55.
posted by 445supermag at 7:54 AM on October 25, 2005
posted by 445supermag at 7:54 AM on October 25, 2005
Best answer: Four years is a pretty fair life on a battery and if the weather turned cold for the first time that's a very common time for a marginal battery to go kerflunk. Interior lights and radios, etc, are irrelevant - the difference in the power draw to run them compared to what it takes to turn over the engine is comparable to the difference between picking up a toy poodle and a St Bernard. The most crap battery can run them and hold a charge sufficient for a dome light.
Testing a car battery isn't something you do with a volt meter; it needs to be put on a load tester. Any auto parts store will do it for free, though few that I know of will come out to the car - you'll have to lug it in. If you can't even turn over the engine that's sort of a moot point. Get someone to drive you in with it. My money's on it being bad.
As far as this: I've tried it a few times since then with no trouble, even though it's colder now (9:30 PM) than it was this morning. the weather may be colder but your battery isn't - the alternator shoving power into it warms the battery as does the process of drawing power from it. When it has sat unused for 10 hours in the cold night you'll be able to make a fair comparison.
You might be able to tough it out a while if you keep the charger on it overnight, but I'd keep planning ahead and allowing additional time for alternate forms of transportation. And good on you for buying a cheap old car; it's always cheaper than new. Just make sure you don't neglect standard maint items like oil changes. And next time, buy something post 92 - survival rates are way better in cars with airbags.
posted by phearlez at 8:50 AM on October 25, 2005
Testing a car battery isn't something you do with a volt meter; it needs to be put on a load tester. Any auto parts store will do it for free, though few that I know of will come out to the car - you'll have to lug it in. If you can't even turn over the engine that's sort of a moot point. Get someone to drive you in with it. My money's on it being bad.
As far as this: I've tried it a few times since then with no trouble, even though it's colder now (9:30 PM) than it was this morning. the weather may be colder but your battery isn't - the alternator shoving power into it warms the battery as does the process of drawing power from it. When it has sat unused for 10 hours in the cold night you'll be able to make a fair comparison.
You might be able to tough it out a while if you keep the charger on it overnight, but I'd keep planning ahead and allowing additional time for alternate forms of transportation. And good on you for buying a cheap old car; it's always cheaper than new. Just make sure you don't neglect standard maint items like oil changes. And next time, buy something post 92 - survival rates are way better in cars with airbags.
posted by phearlez at 8:50 AM on October 25, 2005
Best answer: From your description, I don't think the problem is the battery. The fact that it started up the next day suggests one of two things:
1. The interlock switch on the automatic trans mission is misaligned or faulty. This is Lyn Never's shift-wiggling condition. The switch is supposed to keep you from starting the car in gear, so it doesn't move when you don't expect it. If the switch is faulty or misaligned, it can keep you from starting when you ought to be able to.
2. Bad ground. I had a bad ground strap on an Audi that cost me a lot of money in replacement components before a friend suggested the correct cause. It exhibited exactly what you've described.
The instrument-light brightness setting and radio-power switch won't drain your battery, because they are disabled when you remove the key. If you left the dome light on, it would drain the battery.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 9:24 AM on October 25, 2005
1. The interlock switch on the automatic trans mission is misaligned or faulty. This is Lyn Never's shift-wiggling condition. The switch is supposed to keep you from starting the car in gear, so it doesn't move when you don't expect it. If the switch is faulty or misaligned, it can keep you from starting when you ought to be able to.
2. Bad ground. I had a bad ground strap on an Audi that cost me a lot of money in replacement components before a friend suggested the correct cause. It exhibited exactly what you've described.
The instrument-light brightness setting and radio-power switch won't drain your battery, because they are disabled when you remove the key. If you left the dome light on, it would drain the battery.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 9:24 AM on October 25, 2005
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posted by jeribus at 6:42 PM on October 24, 2005