Help me find (the right) puppies in NYC
December 1, 2013 6:07 PM Subscribe
We would like to get a puppy. Special snowflake details mean we need to find a good breed not just overall but for our circumstances, and for the love of god, someone who sells them. I have been scouring the internet for some time and can find nothing useful because of the noise.
Details:
We have a smallish front yard, but it is unfenced and we can't keep the dog there, which means it would need to live most of the time in our admittedly rather large (3000 sqft) apartment. We also have two rambunctious young adult cats and a child. We also both work full-time. We also need our dog not to bother the neighbors (so no constant barking).
We would like a dog that will not be sad in an apartment by itself with cats. One of the reasons we are seeking out very young (8-10 weeks ideal) puppies is because we have heard that if you get puppies very young, they socialize well with cats and do not torment them.
We both dislike very small dogs and prefer large dogs, but may have to go with medium due to dog-sadness concerns. I am completely, 100%, opposed to pit bulls and similar dogs, if for nothing else, because of how hard it is to rent with one of those breeds.
I am not completely opposed to adopting, but just taking a peek at things in the NYC area shows mostly pit bulls or pit bull mixes or tiny dogs. I prefer the look of German shepherds or golden retrievers, but those are both too big and active, so something similar but smaller would be great. I have tried looking for stores that sell puppies, but they seem to have no websites or be sketchy or with bad reviews.
Help!
(To ease everyone's conscience, I will point out this would not be an impulse buy. Everyone in the family has wanted dogs for at least five years.) Also for those watching at home, this is what my husband really wanted when he bought us birds.
Details:
We have a smallish front yard, but it is unfenced and we can't keep the dog there, which means it would need to live most of the time in our admittedly rather large (3000 sqft) apartment. We also have two rambunctious young adult cats and a child. We also both work full-time. We also need our dog not to bother the neighbors (so no constant barking).
We would like a dog that will not be sad in an apartment by itself with cats. One of the reasons we are seeking out very young (8-10 weeks ideal) puppies is because we have heard that if you get puppies very young, they socialize well with cats and do not torment them.
We both dislike very small dogs and prefer large dogs, but may have to go with medium due to dog-sadness concerns. I am completely, 100%, opposed to pit bulls and similar dogs, if for nothing else, because of how hard it is to rent with one of those breeds.
I am not completely opposed to adopting, but just taking a peek at things in the NYC area shows mostly pit bulls or pit bull mixes or tiny dogs. I prefer the look of German shepherds or golden retrievers, but those are both too big and active, so something similar but smaller would be great. I have tried looking for stores that sell puppies, but they seem to have no websites or be sketchy or with bad reviews.
Help!
(To ease everyone's conscience, I will point out this would not be an impulse buy. Everyone in the family has wanted dogs for at least five years.) Also for those watching at home, this is what my husband really wanted when he bought us birds.
Any puppy will be pretty active, but, in adulthood, larger breeds actually tend to need less exercise than smaller breeds. Given your cats, I would try to avoid anything with herding tendencies (especially since those dogs tend to need a lot of activity too).
Otherwise… are you asking what breed to get? Or where to get a purebred dog? It might be helpful to narrow down to a few breeds and then look for quality breeders (likely not in NYC is my guess).
Will a puppy be too much? Because you might think about contacting breed-specific rescue organizations who often foster dogs and can tell you if a dog has lived with and done well with cats. But ignore that if you're focused on getting a pup.
posted by bluedaisy at 6:22 PM on December 1, 2013
Otherwise… are you asking what breed to get? Or where to get a purebred dog? It might be helpful to narrow down to a few breeds and then look for quality breeders (likely not in NYC is my guess).
Will a puppy be too much? Because you might think about contacting breed-specific rescue organizations who often foster dogs and can tell you if a dog has lived with and done well with cats. But ignore that if you're focused on getting a pup.
posted by bluedaisy at 6:22 PM on December 1, 2013
Oh! Another thought on the whole rescue dog/puppy thing: I used to live in an area where adoptable rescue dogs were regularly brought up to NYC to be adopted. Apparently spay/neuter programs are so effective in NYC and surrounds that there's not really a stray dog problem, and there often aren't a ton of dogs available in local shelters.
I'm sure there's more to do, and someone will likely chime in with more accurate information, but it does seem like the situation in New York is different than in most areas.
posted by bluedaisy at 6:24 PM on December 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
I'm sure there's more to do, and someone will likely chime in with more accurate information, but it does seem like the situation in New York is different than in most areas.
posted by bluedaisy at 6:24 PM on December 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
How far are you willing to drive to meet a dog with your (human) family members? If you find a rescue within a couple hours' drive for a breed like a golden retriever, you will speak directly with a foster family, probably. Usually foster homes can tell you if a dog is good with cats and kids. They also do not want to send a dog somewhere it won't fit, and this is to your advantage.
I do not recommend a puppy if you don't want something active/lively. Um. Puppies are active/lively and a lot of work regardless of breed until they are around 1-2 years old.
Usually foster homes and rescues can direct you to the couch potato of the breed they focus on. There are couch potatoes in every active breed. I do not own couch potatoes myself, but I do hear this even from the border collie rescue people.
You might also inquire about rejects from service work.
I agree with not getting a pitbull or pitbull mix. I don't think that would be a good fit for a variety of reasons, but most important is the fact that you don't want one. Don't get a dog you don't like! Get a dog who charms you, who makes you smile, etc.
posted by AllieTessKipp at 6:25 PM on December 1, 2013 [3 favorites]
I do not recommend a puppy if you don't want something active/lively. Um. Puppies are active/lively and a lot of work regardless of breed until they are around 1-2 years old.
Usually foster homes and rescues can direct you to the couch potato of the breed they focus on. There are couch potatoes in every active breed. I do not own couch potatoes myself, but I do hear this even from the border collie rescue people.
You might also inquire about rejects from service work.
I agree with not getting a pitbull or pitbull mix. I don't think that would be a good fit for a variety of reasons, but most important is the fact that you don't want one. Don't get a dog you don't like! Get a dog who charms you, who makes you smile, etc.
posted by AllieTessKipp at 6:25 PM on December 1, 2013 [3 favorites]
Response by poster: To clarify: I looked at the shelters first and the pickings seemed really, really bare. We adopted our cats - I'm not opposed to getting a rescue! I just literally could not find anything that was not either a pitbull, pitbull mix, or a tiny-dog variant. I was thinking breeders would be more likely to have actual puppies. We do not have a car, though could probably zipcar it. I suppose maybe a two-hour drive at the max?
We have no objections to lively dogs! We also have a frisky ten year old! It just has to be capable of being left alone with cats for six hours.
posted by corb at 6:28 PM on December 1, 2013
We have no objections to lively dogs! We also have a frisky ten year old! It just has to be capable of being left alone with cats for six hours.
posted by corb at 6:28 PM on December 1, 2013
Have you looked at any breed specific rescues? I know people who have gone for older rescue dogs specifically because of the ability to get a dog that has been child and cat tested. (And also, they're often already trained and house broken.) I really can't imagine many puppies that would be happy being left alone immediately during the day. Bit of a long shot, but have you looked at greyhounds? They actually don't need continuous exercise, just a couple of serious romps a day. I can't imagine there aren't any local to NYC, but if not, we have a lot in nearby Philly.
posted by jetlagaddict at 6:28 PM on December 1, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by jetlagaddict at 6:28 PM on December 1, 2013 [3 favorites]
fwiw, i've always thought herding dogs were better with cats, because the alternative would be dogs bred to hunt. especially small to medium dogs, bred to hunt rats.
posted by cupcake1337 at 6:30 PM on December 1, 2013
posted by cupcake1337 at 6:30 PM on December 1, 2013
Once you figure out a breed that works for, find that breed's local/regional club. They should have a link to a breeder listing. That should get you started on finding a breeder. Do some research and ask around. Some breeders are hella sketchy and should be avoided. A big red flag is if they have more than one or two litters per year.
Especially with some of the rare-ish breeds a lot of the breeders know each other so you can ask some of the other breeders about the one you are planning on getting a puppy from. You can also ask the breeder if their specific lines tend to do well with other animals and apartment living.
Another angle is to try and figure out who does the judging for the breed that you want at the dog shows in the area and see if you can send that person an e-mail asking for a breeder referral.
posted by VTX at 6:31 PM on December 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
Especially with some of the rare-ish breeds a lot of the breeders know each other so you can ask some of the other breeders about the one you are planning on getting a puppy from. You can also ask the breeder if their specific lines tend to do well with other animals and apartment living.
Another angle is to try and figure out who does the judging for the breed that you want at the dog shows in the area and see if you can send that person an e-mail asking for a breeder referral.
posted by VTX at 6:31 PM on December 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
You want to adopt an adult dog that is known to be good with children and cats. Two full time jobs means no puppy unless you can bring the dog to work with you.
I'm going to tell you a secret about shelter dogs and the whole dog adoption process.
While, yes, "most" of the dogs you're going to see are some iteration of pit bull or the popular lapdog breeds, you're not adopting most of the dogs in the shelter. You're adopting one dog in the shelter.
The day I adopted my dog, there were maybe 10 dogs on the Big Dog side of the kennels. Two were mastiffs (of all things), seven were pit bulls or pit mixes where the pit bull aspect was very dominant. The last one was my dog, which is... well, not a pit bull upon immediate inspection, at least.
I didn't take home any of those other dogs. I took home my dog, the sorta labby shepherdy guy who my brother thinks is this very exotic breed of Appalachian hunting cur, but who is probably just a backyard mutt (and who has a bit of the pit bull look about him, if you really give him a good stare).
Since you say you like shepherds and goldens, my advice would be to find a few breed-specific rescues. Also, go check out your local shelters, or at least look on Petfinder to see if they actually have any dogs that interest you.
FWIW I don't think either a golden retriever or a shepherd is "too active" a breed for you. You will, however, have to either hustle to walk it a few times a day (my labby shepherdy guy needs three, YMMV), or hire a dog walker. But you were always going to have to do that, so whatever. Small dogs actually have to be walked more often than large ones, because they have tiny bladders.
I would avoid border collies, which I think is a bridge too far in the whole "active dog" conversation. Here in Los Angeles, we also see a lot of this Korean breed called a jindo. On the off chance that NYC shelters are flooded with them as well, I would avoid -- they're apparently extremely active, extremely smart, and super independent/indifferent to humans. Despite being gorgeous dogs who have a very exotic shepherd/spitz sort of look to them.
posted by Sara C. at 6:35 PM on December 1, 2013 [4 favorites]
I'm going to tell you a secret about shelter dogs and the whole dog adoption process.
While, yes, "most" of the dogs you're going to see are some iteration of pit bull or the popular lapdog breeds, you're not adopting most of the dogs in the shelter. You're adopting one dog in the shelter.
The day I adopted my dog, there were maybe 10 dogs on the Big Dog side of the kennels. Two were mastiffs (of all things), seven were pit bulls or pit mixes where the pit bull aspect was very dominant. The last one was my dog, which is... well, not a pit bull upon immediate inspection, at least.
I didn't take home any of those other dogs. I took home my dog, the sorta labby shepherdy guy who my brother thinks is this very exotic breed of Appalachian hunting cur, but who is probably just a backyard mutt (and who has a bit of the pit bull look about him, if you really give him a good stare).
Since you say you like shepherds and goldens, my advice would be to find a few breed-specific rescues. Also, go check out your local shelters, or at least look on Petfinder to see if they actually have any dogs that interest you.
FWIW I don't think either a golden retriever or a shepherd is "too active" a breed for you. You will, however, have to either hustle to walk it a few times a day (my labby shepherdy guy needs three, YMMV), or hire a dog walker. But you were always going to have to do that, so whatever. Small dogs actually have to be walked more often than large ones, because they have tiny bladders.
I would avoid border collies, which I think is a bridge too far in the whole "active dog" conversation. Here in Los Angeles, we also see a lot of this Korean breed called a jindo. On the off chance that NYC shelters are flooded with them as well, I would avoid -- they're apparently extremely active, extremely smart, and super independent/indifferent to humans. Despite being gorgeous dogs who have a very exotic shepherd/spitz sort of look to them.
posted by Sara C. at 6:35 PM on December 1, 2013 [4 favorites]
Really the prime determinant is how much time you have to walk the dog. If you're thinking one on-leash walk per day you really need a low energy dog like a greyhound or a french bulldog or something. Or an older dog. Most dogs will be fine alone with cats with the propee inintroduction and training.
posted by fshgrl at 6:40 PM on December 1, 2013 [6 favorites]
posted by fshgrl at 6:40 PM on December 1, 2013 [6 favorites]
I think that it's more about the socialization with cats - which is why getting a dog when it is young will probably help. The temperament of the cat will play a role, too. Not much changing that, the way a cat is is just the way that cat is, you know?
I'd look into puggles. You might have to travel to find a good breeder (I know nothing about that, especially in your area).
Puggles are playful, lively, gentle, sweet, and happy little critters. They usually are in the 20-25 pound range. They're not huge barkers (not the one I know, anyhow) and again, training will probably be a big factor there, too.
Remember that with a little puppy like that you're going to be doing a lot of training. So some of the suggestions here to get an adult dog that is chilled out and docile and is already used to cats... well, there's a lot to be said for that. You're going to have to do a lot of leg-work to find the right dog, but you're going to have to do a lot of work training a puppy, too.
posted by k8lin at 6:42 PM on December 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
I'd look into puggles. You might have to travel to find a good breeder (I know nothing about that, especially in your area).
Puggles are playful, lively, gentle, sweet, and happy little critters. They usually are in the 20-25 pound range. They're not huge barkers (not the one I know, anyhow) and again, training will probably be a big factor there, too.
Remember that with a little puppy like that you're going to be doing a lot of training. So some of the suggestions here to get an adult dog that is chilled out and docile and is already used to cats... well, there's a lot to be said for that. You're going to have to do a lot of leg-work to find the right dog, but you're going to have to do a lot of work training a puppy, too.
posted by k8lin at 6:42 PM on December 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
We do not have a car, though could probably zipcar it.
How would you get the dog to a vet in the case of an emergency? Is the vet/animal hospital within walking distance? If you are going to need to use public transport or walk in a case like this, the dog's size is a hard limit. You need a carrier-size dog that one person can lift with one hand.
posted by Miko at 6:42 PM on December 1, 2013 [4 favorites]
How would you get the dog to a vet in the case of an emergency? Is the vet/animal hospital within walking distance? If you are going to need to use public transport or walk in a case like this, the dog's size is a hard limit. You need a carrier-size dog that one person can lift with one hand.
posted by Miko at 6:42 PM on December 1, 2013 [4 favorites]
Like you, I prefer rescues, but my family has now gotten two different puppies from the same breeder (King Charles Cavaliers), and the key with breeders is to find one who is great with the dogs, only does one litter at any given time, and is just generally looking out for the dogs first. My folks found her by poking around on breeder forums and talking with other breeders.
Puppies are a Lot of work, but you guys sound willing to put in the hard work to get your puppy (and family) trained.
posted by ldthomps at 6:42 PM on December 1, 2013
Puppies are a Lot of work, but you guys sound willing to put in the hard work to get your puppy (and family) trained.
posted by ldthomps at 6:42 PM on December 1, 2013
Response by poster: For update: we have time to walk the dog twice a day, and probably run with it/take it to the park three times a week, in terms of activity, for what that's worth. No one can take the dog to work, but I do have generous vacation time and could afford to take some time off to ease the initial new-home process.
posted by corb at 6:45 PM on December 1, 2013
posted by corb at 6:45 PM on December 1, 2013
In that case, you're looking at adopting an adult dog, and probably something on the larger side.
You should plan to hire a dog walker.
posted by Sara C. at 6:47 PM on December 1, 2013 [3 favorites]
You should plan to hire a dog walker.
posted by Sara C. at 6:47 PM on December 1, 2013 [3 favorites]
Please stay away from "stores" that sell puppies. If you don't want to or can't adopt, look for a reputable breeder who's in it for the love of the breed and not for the money. Their dogs will be better-bred and better-socialized.
posted by needs more cowbell at 6:53 PM on December 1, 2013
posted by needs more cowbell at 6:53 PM on December 1, 2013
Maybe greyhound rescue. Most of them are supposed to be pretty disastrous with cats, but if you find one that's been fostered with a family with cats it might be ok. They are meant to be pretty mellow and easy inside, and not have a high need for exercise (beyond the usual). Is it possible for you to fence your yard? I think the biggest problem is that temperamentally, many of those small dogs you don't want have been bred forever to be good in your situation. Dogs like pugs (which may be the perfect dog for kids and cats and being inside) are small, ditto all those lapdog spaniel things. Companion dogs are generally on the smaller side; big dogs are almost invariably doing dogs, they herd or guard or hunt or something, and it makes them problematic mostly indoor pets. There are always exceptions, everyone knows a dog who is whatever and is great with the kids and cats and does dishes or something, but it's a bit of a gamble anyway, getting a dog. You just have no idea if they are going to be a success in any given home, and imo, your parameters are pretty tight.
posted by Kaleidoscope at 6:56 PM on December 1, 2013
posted by Kaleidoscope at 6:56 PM on December 1, 2013
Greyhounds need some care as far as cats go--some of them adapt terrific, others don't--but while my experiences are secondhand through a friend, they seem to generally be pretty sedate and generally a lot more apartment-friendly than most bigger dogs. (Friend's greyhound lives quite happily with a whole bunch of cats. Good rescues do cat testing and place the ones that don't do well with small animals with people who don't have small animals.)
posted by Sequence at 7:02 PM on December 1, 2013
posted by Sequence at 7:02 PM on December 1, 2013
From what I've read about greyhounds, fencing a yard is useless unless you are willing to put up a six foot tall fence in the front yard.
Some of the greyhounds at Grateful Greys on Long Island are good with cats!
I would definitely rethink getting a puppy, it doesn't sound like you have the time for one.
posted by inertia at 7:02 PM on December 1, 2013
Some of the greyhounds at Grateful Greys on Long Island are good with cats!
I would definitely rethink getting a puppy, it doesn't sound like you have the time for one.
posted by inertia at 7:02 PM on December 1, 2013
Even with a fenced yard, I think leaving your dog to hang out alone in the yard for long periods of time is a recipe for disaster in NYC. If you get a purebred dog, there's a strong risk that it would be stolen, especially if you got a purebred puppy. Even if you don't, you're just asking for trouble. It could get out (scratch that, it will get out), it could bark at passers-by and provoke the neighbors' ire, and even if it is somehow perfectly behaved, it's like hanging a sign in your yard that says PLEASE BOTHER ME ABOUT RANDOM SHIT THAT PROBABLY ISN'T MY PROBLEM OR ISN'T EVEN REAL AT ALL.
And it's not like you could have a dog door.
posted by Sara C. at 7:03 PM on December 1, 2013 [3 favorites]
And it's not like you could have a dog door.
posted by Sara C. at 7:03 PM on December 1, 2013 [3 favorites]
I also came in to suggest greyhounds. I have known three rescue greyhounds in my life, and all three of them were among the laziest, chillest dogs I've ever seen. The cat thing *can* be an issue, but if you get a one that has been fostered with cats around it's typically fine. Two of the three greyhounds I have know absolutely ignored the cats, and the third one would only reacted negatively to the cats whey they actually jumped on top of her.
posted by anastasiav at 7:05 PM on December 1, 2013
posted by anastasiav at 7:05 PM on December 1, 2013
Do you know how the cats will feel about a dog? I have two cats - one is pretty much meh about dogs and the other one HATES DOGS OMG (as he has made clear at the vet and when friends have brought dogs over, which they don't anymore because he puffs up huge, swipes at their noses, ROWR, etc.)
Agreed that you should get an older dog that has established good behavior around kids and cats, but consider how the cats will react as well.
posted by sweetkid at 7:05 PM on December 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
Agreed that you should get an older dog that has established good behavior around kids and cats, but consider how the cats will react as well.
posted by sweetkid at 7:05 PM on December 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: The cats have only ever seen dogs at the vet. They seemed kind of "meh" about them then, but then, they may have been focused on the vet. I..don't think I actually have any friends with dogs here, which may be a function of NYC.
posted by corb at 7:08 PM on December 1, 2013
posted by corb at 7:08 PM on December 1, 2013
I suggest meeting up with some rescue organizations in person (or over the phone, if necessary); you could talk to them about what you're looking for, and they could keep their eye out for a rescue that would best meet your needs. I definitely agree that you do not need a brand-new puppy for your purposes; there are plenty of adult dogs of all breeds who can get along with cats, and training a newborn puppy is a real PITA. Here's one that does some great work!
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 7:13 PM on December 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 7:13 PM on December 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
Great Danes in my experience are very good apartment dogs, despite their enormous size and not very barky. And less likely to suddenly decide to chase your cats. You might try a breed specific rescue society (though in my experience they tend to be very, very picky about adopting - sometimes insanely so).
posted by lesbiassparrow at 7:18 PM on December 1, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by lesbiassparrow at 7:18 PM on December 1, 2013 [2 favorites]
What about a boxer? My brother has one, it lives in an apartment just fine, gets about the amount of exercise/bathroom breaks you're looking at, and is a pretty great all around dog. That said he does not have cats or children. Though, again, I think that would be on a case by case basis.
I found plenty of shelters and rescues in the NYC area which currently have dogs that aren't either pit bulls or little lap dogs. A quick search of petfinder will bring up TONS of potential dogs for you.
I have friends who work with animal rescues in NYC, and they all have great things to say about Empty Cages Collective. The only dogs currently on their Petfinder site are small or pit bulls, but it wouldn't hurt to give them a call and get some input. They may be able to recommend specific rescues or put you in touch with folks they know who have a dog that might work well with your family.
I also know people who've worked with BARC (Brooklyn Animal Rescue Coalition) and think the world of them. They have a number of non-pit, non-small dogs currently available for adoption, and are also worth a call to sort of chat generally about what you're looking for.
posted by Sara C. at 7:19 PM on December 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
I found plenty of shelters and rescues in the NYC area which currently have dogs that aren't either pit bulls or little lap dogs. A quick search of petfinder will bring up TONS of potential dogs for you.
I have friends who work with animal rescues in NYC, and they all have great things to say about Empty Cages Collective. The only dogs currently on their Petfinder site are small or pit bulls, but it wouldn't hurt to give them a call and get some input. They may be able to recommend specific rescues or put you in touch with folks they know who have a dog that might work well with your family.
I also know people who've worked with BARC (Brooklyn Animal Rescue Coalition) and think the world of them. They have a number of non-pit, non-small dogs currently available for adoption, and are also worth a call to sort of chat generally about what you're looking for.
posted by Sara C. at 7:19 PM on December 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
I have a keeshond (my second one, the other was also an NYC dog), and I chose the breed largely because of some of the issues you named: they are generally good in small spaces, independent enough to be left alone, reasonably sedentary, as well as great with kids. I've never had a cat, so I can't speak to that, but they are incredible with young children, if that's comparable. They are watch dogs, so expect some barking at the door buzzer or a person in the hallway making noise, but it's an alert bark rather than an all-day nonstop barking, which for safety reasons we appreciate. The main downside to the breed is that they shed like crazy. And they're pretty smart, so you have to stay on top of them when it comes to training - an older dog may be better than a puppy if you don't have time to stay on top of this (though that's probably true for most breeds as well as mixes).
They're a little-known enough breed that there's less of a worry from puppy mills, but I would still do some homework when contacting breeders. In my experience, this is a bad time of year to get a puppy, as most responsible breeders seem to have litters in the spring and summer (possibly to avoid the type of careless buyers who want Christmas puppies?)
posted by Mchelly at 7:42 PM on December 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
They're a little-known enough breed that there's less of a worry from puppy mills, but I would still do some homework when contacting breeders. In my experience, this is a bad time of year to get a puppy, as most responsible breeders seem to have litters in the spring and summer (possibly to avoid the type of careless buyers who want Christmas puppies?)
posted by Mchelly at 7:42 PM on December 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
I can second that greyhounds are lazy, very very rarely bark, and don't needs tonnes of exercise, for what it's worth. They are sweet, quiet dogs.
posted by smoke at 7:43 PM on December 1, 2013
posted by smoke at 7:43 PM on December 1, 2013
My parents had two greyhounds and two cats for several years, and the two species basically ignored each other. So nthing that greyhounds might be an option. They are very sweet and lazy dogs and have no issues with being left alone for a workday.
posted by leesh at 7:48 PM on December 1, 2013
posted by leesh at 7:48 PM on December 1, 2013
My NYC friend got her hound mix from an adoption group that worked with overcrowded shelters. He was brought up from somewhere in the south. I wouldn't be surprised if several NYC-based groups do the same. My NYC based SIL got her Boston Terrier from a breeder in Texas- he was flown to her.
A good rescue org will help you a lot with temperament and may advise an older dog and not a puppy, since personality will be easier to appraise. I bet there is a great mixed-breed rescue pup that will be a perfect match for your family.
posted by PussKillian at 8:48 PM on December 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
A good rescue org will help you a lot with temperament and may advise an older dog and not a puppy, since personality will be easier to appraise. I bet there is a great mixed-breed rescue pup that will be a perfect match for your family.
posted by PussKillian at 8:48 PM on December 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
I also agree that a rescued greyhound would work really well for you. They are sweet, lazy, and pretty quiet. Some greyhounds have a high prey-drive and cannot be trusted with cats, but rescue groups test for that.
Greyhound rescue groups are also pretty organized and seem a little less intense on the bullshit to me.
posted by ablazingsaddle at 9:03 PM on December 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
Greyhound rescue groups are also pretty organized and seem a little less intense on the bullshit to me.
posted by ablazingsaddle at 9:03 PM on December 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
We looked for a "hypoallergenic" rescue larger than a toy for about a year. I cannot stand small dogs, the boy grew up with bichon and likes the curly hair. Whatever. That type of dog never came up in the local shelters, so we decided to go with a breeder. I grew up with breeder dogs, and if you do the research, they are great, expensive dogs. Our poodle-to-be comes from the only poodle service dog breeder in Ontario, and they donate dogs to the service dog societies. They have a very active facebook group with pictures of their dogs worldwide. Apparently half of their customers come back for another dog, and they have a 3 year health guarantee. It was also very convenient they had a litter right when we started looking and live 1/2 away.
Anyway, reputable breeders exist. Look for a health guarantee. Research health problems that crop up in the breed. Look into previous litters they've had, or the accomplishments of their breeder dogs. Some will breed show dogs that look beautiful but are neurotic. Look at personality too (which is one reason I mention the service dog history). Expect over $1000 for the pup, with shots and a microchip. Breeders don't make a ton of money, those who don't seem to be doing it for the love of the breed are suspect.
One thing we didn't know until after we reserved our pup was that shelters can have breed-specific wait lists. Many of these dogs will just never go up for public adoption because there's a wait list for poodles of dachshunds or whatnot and they disappear through that system. Try contacting your shelter and see if they have the same system.
posted by aggyface at 9:03 PM on December 1, 2013 [2 favorites]
Anyway, reputable breeders exist. Look for a health guarantee. Research health problems that crop up in the breed. Look into previous litters they've had, or the accomplishments of their breeder dogs. Some will breed show dogs that look beautiful but are neurotic. Look at personality too (which is one reason I mention the service dog history). Expect over $1000 for the pup, with shots and a microchip. Breeders don't make a ton of money, those who don't seem to be doing it for the love of the breed are suspect.
One thing we didn't know until after we reserved our pup was that shelters can have breed-specific wait lists. Many of these dogs will just never go up for public adoption because there's a wait list for poodles of dachshunds or whatnot and they disappear through that system. Try contacting your shelter and see if they have the same system.
posted by aggyface at 9:03 PM on December 1, 2013 [2 favorites]
Get on pinterest (can't believing I'm saying this). The rescue groups are all on there. Memail if if want me to hook you up. I have two dogs from independent rescues on there, and they will travel to bring you a dog you want.
posted by syncope at 9:11 PM on December 1, 2013
posted by syncope at 9:11 PM on December 1, 2013
This'll be long so I'll break it up into multiple posts.
The first thing to remember is what not to do:
(1) Duh, don't go to a puppy mill. I only actually say this because you're likely in range of actual no-shit puppy mills in PA who might present as friendly Amish or otherwise non-scumbags.
(2) Don't go to a pet store. Pet stores get their puppies from puppy mills. They have to, because if you sell to a pet store instead of vetting owners yourself, congratulations! You are a puppy mill.
(3) Don't use one of those internet things like nextdaypets or anyone you can see advertising on nextdaypets. Those folks are... you guessed it... puppy mills. Or at least puppy mill lite; not necessarily worse than Hitler but still something not to encourage.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 10:31 PM on December 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
The first thing to remember is what not to do:
(1) Duh, don't go to a puppy mill. I only actually say this because you're likely in range of actual no-shit puppy mills in PA who might present as friendly Amish or otherwise non-scumbags.
(2) Don't go to a pet store. Pet stores get their puppies from puppy mills. They have to, because if you sell to a pet store instead of vetting owners yourself, congratulations! You are a puppy mill.
(3) Don't use one of those internet things like nextdaypets or anyone you can see advertising on nextdaypets. Those folks are... you guessed it... puppy mills. Or at least puppy mill lite; not necessarily worse than Hitler but still something not to encourage.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 10:31 PM on December 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
There are basically three ways to do this right.
The first is to look in shelters/pounds. What you want here is some degree of temperament assessment for stuff like cat-safeness and responses to kids, at least for adult dogs. I know, you said you want a puppy, but the advantage of an adult is that you can potentially find a dog that's known to be cat-safe and kid-tolerant.
The downsides of a shelter/pound is that in puppies you're unlikely to be able to place a very firm bet on what sort of dog you'll end up with, since mixed-breed puppies can end up all over the map. Another potential downside is that there can be a bit of wishful thinking about stuff like "Cat safe!" or "Good with kids!"
The primary advantages of a shelter are, (1) feeling good about yourself, (2) higher availability of dogs, and (3) cost. Though wherever you go, the purchase price is going to be ultimately a small part of the total cost of ownership.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 10:39 PM on December 1, 2013
The first is to look in shelters/pounds. What you want here is some degree of temperament assessment for stuff like cat-safeness and responses to kids, at least for adult dogs. I know, you said you want a puppy, but the advantage of an adult is that you can potentially find a dog that's known to be cat-safe and kid-tolerant.
The downsides of a shelter/pound is that in puppies you're unlikely to be able to place a very firm bet on what sort of dog you'll end up with, since mixed-breed puppies can end up all over the map. Another potential downside is that there can be a bit of wishful thinking about stuff like "Cat safe!" or "Good with kids!"
The primary advantages of a shelter are, (1) feeling good about yourself, (2) higher availability of dogs, and (3) cost. Though wherever you go, the purchase price is going to be ultimately a small part of the total cost of ownership.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 10:39 PM on December 1, 2013
The second right way is through breed-specific rescues.
This means selecting a breed first! The easiest way to do that is to meet lots of breeds at dog shows, agility trials, or other doggy events and talk to people about what their breed is like.
Upsides of a breed rescue are cost again, and feeling good about giving a pup a good home, and temperament assessment about cat-safeness etc again. Also, if you were to go to a breed rescue and they did have puppies or young dogs, you'd be able to make a better guess about what the dog would grow up to be like just because it's, well, a breed. Genetics are still a crapshoot, but going with a breed means rolling heavily loaded dice, for good and for ill.
Downsides are that they're unlikely to have puppies if you're dead set on that, and that their adoption process will be somewhat intrusive. A potential downside is that like with shelters, there can be wishful thinking about their temperaments (and the primary reason a dog ends up in a rescue is behavior problems).
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 10:46 PM on December 1, 2013
This means selecting a breed first! The easiest way to do that is to meet lots of breeds at dog shows, agility trials, or other doggy events and talk to people about what their breed is like.
Upsides of a breed rescue are cost again, and feeling good about giving a pup a good home, and temperament assessment about cat-safeness etc again. Also, if you were to go to a breed rescue and they did have puppies or young dogs, you'd be able to make a better guess about what the dog would grow up to be like just because it's, well, a breed. Genetics are still a crapshoot, but going with a breed means rolling heavily loaded dice, for good and for ill.
Downsides are that they're unlikely to have puppies if you're dead set on that, and that their adoption process will be somewhat intrusive. A potential downside is that like with shelters, there can be wishful thinking about their temperaments (and the primary reason a dog ends up in a rescue is behavior problems).
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 10:46 PM on December 1, 2013
Best answer: Aaaand the third is to go with an ethical breeder. Again this means picking a breed first.
Knowing whether the breeder you're talking to is an ethical one isn't hard. Easy signs are a horrifyingly intrusive questionnaire about why you want a dog and how you live your life and experience with dogs in the past and what happened to those dogs and where will the dog live and what will the dog eat and have you chosen a vet and how often do you expect to get routine blood work down and how often do you plan to do dentals and so on.
Also, an ethical breeder will tell you all about the health tests the sire and dam have passed, and probably the health tests the grandparents and great-grandparents passed. There will be lots of these tests -- eyes and hips almost certainly, and elbows and patellas are good too as is heart, and then testing against congenital problems in the breed (like valve insufficiency in Cavaliers or collie eye). They'll be able to tell you what goals they're working towards in their stock and how this breeding should help to move them towards those goals. They'll offer a health guarantee. They'll require, typically in STERN LANGUAGE WITH ALL CAPS, that if for whatever reason you can't keep the dog, that you will return it to the breeder and not do any other thing.
Upsides of going with an ethical breeder: you get a health guarantee. You get the benefit of extensive health testing back a few generations. You get a breeder to ask questions about later.
Downsides: the big one will be cost. aggyfaced mentioned $1000; I'd bet on something north of $1500. Ours go for $1500 and we don't really make any money on them; it keeps the dogs and dog-activities closer to revenue-neutral but that's it. But wherever you get a dog, you should expect that you're going to drop $500+ on it every now and again for dentals and the occasional illness or injury. Other downsides are the search costs to finding an ethical breeder (though you'll know it when you see it) and, in all likelihood, having to wait for a breeding.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 11:08 PM on December 1, 2013 [2 favorites]
Knowing whether the breeder you're talking to is an ethical one isn't hard. Easy signs are a horrifyingly intrusive questionnaire about why you want a dog and how you live your life and experience with dogs in the past and what happened to those dogs and where will the dog live and what will the dog eat and have you chosen a vet and how often do you expect to get routine blood work down and how often do you plan to do dentals and so on.
Also, an ethical breeder will tell you all about the health tests the sire and dam have passed, and probably the health tests the grandparents and great-grandparents passed. There will be lots of these tests -- eyes and hips almost certainly, and elbows and patellas are good too as is heart, and then testing against congenital problems in the breed (like valve insufficiency in Cavaliers or collie eye). They'll be able to tell you what goals they're working towards in their stock and how this breeding should help to move them towards those goals. They'll offer a health guarantee. They'll require, typically in STERN LANGUAGE WITH ALL CAPS, that if for whatever reason you can't keep the dog, that you will return it to the breeder and not do any other thing.
Upsides of going with an ethical breeder: you get a health guarantee. You get the benefit of extensive health testing back a few generations. You get a breeder to ask questions about later.
Downsides: the big one will be cost. aggyfaced mentioned $1000; I'd bet on something north of $1500. Ours go for $1500 and we don't really make any money on them; it keeps the dogs and dog-activities closer to revenue-neutral but that's it. But wherever you get a dog, you should expect that you're going to drop $500+ on it every now and again for dentals and the occasional illness or injury. Other downsides are the search costs to finding an ethical breeder (though you'll know it when you see it) and, in all likelihood, having to wait for a breeding.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 11:08 PM on December 1, 2013 [2 favorites]
The tricky thing about your situation is the lack of a yard, I think. We had a similar situation and ended up with a lovely spoodle, but we are able to keep her outside while we work. This is desirable because a) she's not toilet trained at 17 weeks and b) she chews everything in sight. I think the toilet training can be sped up with crating and a more serious committment than we have though.
Be aware that the first week with our puppy was exhausting-- up multiple times in the night and she was crazy frantic every time she was left alone. That was pretty short lived but I was very grateful to be on holidays. Because we kept her in the laundry overnight there was a lot of poop to clean up every day. The alternative, crating, requires you to get up frequently to let her pee for a while at least because they have poor bladder control.
2 months in and we adore her. We have a very small yard and walk her about every second day, which seems to be sufficient. One last thing to consider on that front is that until they are vaccinated, you're not supposed to even walk them-- which is 2 months after most people buy their puppy, at least in Australia. So that means that they need more attention and exercise in the home.
I don't think you need to feel morally responsible for all the abandoned dogs of NYC, and I think it would be foolish to get an unsuitable breed for the sake of sticking with a shelter. After all, that is often what led to these dogs being abandoned to begin with. The idea that there is no such thing as an ethical breeder is a fairly extreme position, I think, although of course you want to visit and be cautious and responsible in your approach. I suppose you'll have to make your own informed decision about where you stand on that one.
Good luck! And consider a spoodle! They don't shed much, which makes them good for indoors, and if you're lucky you'll get the intelligence of the poodle with the friendliness of the cocker spaniel.
posted by jojobobo at 12:33 AM on December 2, 2013 [1 favorite]
Be aware that the first week with our puppy was exhausting-- up multiple times in the night and she was crazy frantic every time she was left alone. That was pretty short lived but I was very grateful to be on holidays. Because we kept her in the laundry overnight there was a lot of poop to clean up every day. The alternative, crating, requires you to get up frequently to let her pee for a while at least because they have poor bladder control.
2 months in and we adore her. We have a very small yard and walk her about every second day, which seems to be sufficient. One last thing to consider on that front is that until they are vaccinated, you're not supposed to even walk them-- which is 2 months after most people buy their puppy, at least in Australia. So that means that they need more attention and exercise in the home.
I don't think you need to feel morally responsible for all the abandoned dogs of NYC, and I think it would be foolish to get an unsuitable breed for the sake of sticking with a shelter. After all, that is often what led to these dogs being abandoned to begin with. The idea that there is no such thing as an ethical breeder is a fairly extreme position, I think, although of course you want to visit and be cautious and responsible in your approach. I suppose you'll have to make your own informed decision about where you stand on that one.
Good luck! And consider a spoodle! They don't shed much, which makes them good for indoors, and if you're lucky you'll get the intelligence of the poodle with the friendliness of the cocker spaniel.
posted by jojobobo at 12:33 AM on December 2, 2013 [1 favorite]
Seconding/thirding greyhounds.
Greyhounds can happily coexist with cats, even some that have been racing dogs. They are also lazy as hell and surprisingly good housedogs.
A greyhound will be quite happy with a two mile walk each day as long as somewhere on that walk it can come off the leash and go nuts hitting top speed for five or ten minutes. Once they've done that, they're knackered.
They don't really bark. They've got lovely natures. Most of the time they're pretty chilled about life in my experience and adore lounging somewhere rather than one of those dogs that always has its nose in the action. It can be awkward when they think they're lapdogs, but amusing nonetheless.
posted by MuffinMan at 3:22 AM on December 2, 2013
Greyhounds can happily coexist with cats, even some that have been racing dogs. They are also lazy as hell and surprisingly good housedogs.
A greyhound will be quite happy with a two mile walk each day as long as somewhere on that walk it can come off the leash and go nuts hitting top speed for five or ten minutes. Once they've done that, they're knackered.
They don't really bark. They've got lovely natures. Most of the time they're pretty chilled about life in my experience and adore lounging somewhere rather than one of those dogs that always has its nose in the action. It can be awkward when they think they're lapdogs, but amusing nonetheless.
posted by MuffinMan at 3:22 AM on December 2, 2013
My girlfriend and her husband just adoped a standard poodle puppy. Puppies are pains in the ass, but this one is pretty great.
They have 4 cats, and although she's rambunctous, they all get along pretty well.
You may need to keep everyone in species specific rooms when you're not home, just to be safe.
They have a nearly year old kitten and the puppy and the kitten play VERY rough together. They both seem to enjoy it, but there's something really disconcerting about a pretty large dog (she's about 9 month's now) with the cat's neck in her mouth. The cat seems to dig it, so there's no accounting for taste.
But it does seem that a Standard Poodle would be a good answer for you. There are rescue groups, and you may want to wait a couple of months after the holidays, because people impulsively get pets at the holidays and then give them up for re-homing.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 5:20 AM on December 2, 2013
They have 4 cats, and although she's rambunctous, they all get along pretty well.
You may need to keep everyone in species specific rooms when you're not home, just to be safe.
They have a nearly year old kitten and the puppy and the kitten play VERY rough together. They both seem to enjoy it, but there's something really disconcerting about a pretty large dog (she's about 9 month's now) with the cat's neck in her mouth. The cat seems to dig it, so there's no accounting for taste.
But it does seem that a Standard Poodle would be a good answer for you. There are rescue groups, and you may want to wait a couple of months after the holidays, because people impulsively get pets at the holidays and then give them up for re-homing.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 5:20 AM on December 2, 2013
I have 3 dogs, all adopted when older - I also have cats. Cats and dogs will get along even when the dog is older. You may have to train but you'd have to train a puppy as well. I think puppies you will drive your cats crazy more then an older dog because puppies are always looking for someone to play. Try for a breed specific rescue and ask for their smaller dogs. Puppies will cry and whine and IMO a pain in the ass. Try Labs4rescue - (I've fostered for them) - they often have mixes that are smaller then a regular lab - btw the breeds you are looking at are active dogs and will be very active puppies.
posted by lasamana at 5:30 AM on December 2, 2013
posted by lasamana at 5:30 AM on December 2, 2013
Pugs are more fun than a barrel of catfish. They are active and enjoy action but more than happy to couch potato it. My Grand Old Lady is soon to be fourteen; has no eyes and has had myelopathy for over a year. Still bullies the other dogs. Healthy for most of her years and tough as a tiger. Get one from a dedicated breeder and look for not too bulgy eyes.
posted by AuntieRuth at 6:08 AM on December 2, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by AuntieRuth at 6:08 AM on December 2, 2013 [1 favorite]
Given your requirements, I would adopt a young adult dog from a breed rescue, where it has been fostered so that you will know up front that it is known to be good with cats, not a barker, etc. A puppy is a wildcard.
Since you like big dogs, I will second the recommendation for Great Danes. They make great apartment dogs because they just want to chill out all day while you're gone. Mid-Atlantic Great Dane Rescue League (MAGDRL) has a NY branch at nydanerescue.com, I would check them out.
posted by crankylex at 6:33 AM on December 2, 2013
Since you like big dogs, I will second the recommendation for Great Danes. They make great apartment dogs because they just want to chill out all day while you're gone. Mid-Atlantic Great Dane Rescue League (MAGDRL) has a NY branch at nydanerescue.com, I would check them out.
posted by crankylex at 6:33 AM on December 2, 2013
I would recommend checking out Petfinder with a few breeds/breed mixes in mind--it's a good inroad to both breed-specific rescues and other miscellaneous small independent rescue organizations--for example, the ones the transport highly adoptable dogs from high-kill shelters in the south and foster them in northern cities where the shelters tend to be--as you note--dominated by pits and pit mixes. With Petfinder you can filter by suitableness for households with cats and small children. There is also a huge advantage in going with a smaller rescue that fosters their animals in that you'll get a much better idea about the dog's personality, energy needs, quirks and issues.
I can't really recommend getting a puppy if both adults work away from home full-time. A 10-week-old puppy is going to need intensive housetraining support for many weeks and middle-of-the-day walks for many months.
If you open yourself up to the idea of getting an adult dog that fits your lifestyle through an independent and/or breed-specific rescue, you could even consider something like a golden or GSD--they mellow down considerably at 4-5 years old compared to the first couple of years and could be perfectly compatible with the amount of exercise you're able to offer. A 5-year-old golden is more likely to be compatible with your lifestyle than a 5-month-old anything.
posted by drlith at 6:37 AM on December 2, 2013 [1 favorite]
I can't really recommend getting a puppy if both adults work away from home full-time. A 10-week-old puppy is going to need intensive housetraining support for many weeks and middle-of-the-day walks for many months.
If you open yourself up to the idea of getting an adult dog that fits your lifestyle through an independent and/or breed-specific rescue, you could even consider something like a golden or GSD--they mellow down considerably at 4-5 years old compared to the first couple of years and could be perfectly compatible with the amount of exercise you're able to offer. A 5-year-old golden is more likely to be compatible with your lifestyle than a 5-month-old anything.
posted by drlith at 6:37 AM on December 2, 2013 [1 favorite]
Another thing to consider is whether there is a fenced in dog run nearby. If so, that will take a lot of exercise requirements if you can get out there often. Puppies however won't be able to handle that kind of place, so you will either have to wait with the pup, or have a sociable adult dog.
This is a bit of a tangent, but we're actually also apartment dwellers with no vehicle, so a few things I've had to figure out include:
It's hugely important to socialize the pup to not just cats, but to as many different dogs as possible. The amount of 'bad dog citizens' that end up in shelters is just saddening. Apartment dogs have their own advantages and disadvantages...he will probably be socialized to a wide variety of people, given that you will have to walk in populated places. Make sure you aren't timid about it in the 8-12 week range. "Common practice" is to make sure the pup meets at least 100 different people a week. Pretty easy in a big city, just make sure you don't isolate the dog.
Since you don't have friends with dogs, you will have to make plans for puppy obedience classes (which you really need to do anyway, but the socialization aspect is doubly important), and occasional outings to a doggy daycare. This is complicated by the fact that 8-12 week old pups are still not 100% vaccinated, so "stranger danger" is a very real thing. That's what sucks about you not having friends with dogs - generally you can trust your friend to tell you whether the dogs are fully vaccinated or not. At least at a reputable daycare or puppy class, the organizers should only accept vaccinated pups.
We have a friend with a car that lives very close by who has offered help with vet runs, and we made sure that taxis in our city have dog-friendly vehicles in case of emergency. Not ideal, but doable.
The point? Puppies are a huge pain in the ass. :) They're just like buying a baby. A baby with shark teeth and who doesn't know your language. We both grew up with dogs, so it was an inevitable choice for us when we became stable in our living situation, so we know what we're getting into, and even then, figuring out how to combine apartment living and a dog has been (and will continue to be) a challenge for us. We know though, that we're not just getting a dog, we are acquiring a new family member. With shark teeth.
posted by aggyface at 7:21 AM on December 2, 2013 [1 favorite]
This is a bit of a tangent, but we're actually also apartment dwellers with no vehicle, so a few things I've had to figure out include:
It's hugely important to socialize the pup to not just cats, but to as many different dogs as possible. The amount of 'bad dog citizens' that end up in shelters is just saddening. Apartment dogs have their own advantages and disadvantages...he will probably be socialized to a wide variety of people, given that you will have to walk in populated places. Make sure you aren't timid about it in the 8-12 week range. "Common practice" is to make sure the pup meets at least 100 different people a week. Pretty easy in a big city, just make sure you don't isolate the dog.
Since you don't have friends with dogs, you will have to make plans for puppy obedience classes (which you really need to do anyway, but the socialization aspect is doubly important), and occasional outings to a doggy daycare. This is complicated by the fact that 8-12 week old pups are still not 100% vaccinated, so "stranger danger" is a very real thing. That's what sucks about you not having friends with dogs - generally you can trust your friend to tell you whether the dogs are fully vaccinated or not. At least at a reputable daycare or puppy class, the organizers should only accept vaccinated pups.
We have a friend with a car that lives very close by who has offered help with vet runs, and we made sure that taxis in our city have dog-friendly vehicles in case of emergency. Not ideal, but doable.
The point? Puppies are a huge pain in the ass. :) They're just like buying a baby. A baby with shark teeth and who doesn't know your language. We both grew up with dogs, so it was an inevitable choice for us when we became stable in our living situation, so we know what we're getting into, and even then, figuring out how to combine apartment living and a dog has been (and will continue to be) a challenge for us. We know though, that we're not just getting a dog, we are acquiring a new family member. With shark teeth.
posted by aggyface at 7:21 AM on December 2, 2013 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: There may be something wrong with me. A baby with shark teeth sounds awesome!
I really appreciate the thoughtful recommendations for older dogs - we may wind up falling back on that, but right now, we really, really, are looking for a puppy, so suggestions about how we could best do that would be perfect.
I was unaware that doggy daycare existed - that is great advice and certainly something we could do if it was needed to ease a puppy's transition! We are also available to give it lots of love and playtime after work - I didn't mean to suggest we just wanted to walk it and nothing else.
Re puppy mills in PA - is this a thing? I was looking and it seems like there are a lot of puppies in PA, which is tempting because it's driveable. How can I tell them apart before going to meet and choose a dog?
posted by corb at 8:10 AM on December 2, 2013
I really appreciate the thoughtful recommendations for older dogs - we may wind up falling back on that, but right now, we really, really, are looking for a puppy, so suggestions about how we could best do that would be perfect.
I was unaware that doggy daycare existed - that is great advice and certainly something we could do if it was needed to ease a puppy's transition! We are also available to give it lots of love and playtime after work - I didn't mean to suggest we just wanted to walk it and nothing else.
Re puppy mills in PA - is this a thing? I was looking and it seems like there are a lot of puppies in PA, which is tempting because it's driveable. How can I tell them apart before going to meet and choose a dog?
posted by corb at 8:10 AM on December 2, 2013
There are many puppy mills in the rural Lancaster area of PA, run by farmers trying to make money to supplement less than stellar farming income. Does not justify puppy milling though.
You need petfinder.com - theres so many adoption groups out there and the site lets you search with filters for breed, proximity and age. If the dog is going to be home by itself for more than 5 hours at a time you should definitely not get a puppy. A good option is a 1-3 year old dog. They will still have puppy playful personality but will be likely be more socialized to people (by either rescue workers or foster parents) and might even be housebroken already. Do not underestimate the task of housebreaking a puppy.
I adopted my lazy daisy about 3 years ago when she was 1-2 years old. I still spend at least an hour a day on her exercise (walking, trotting at the park). Dogs also seem to me to have more...need for human involvement than cats. Dogs seem to like a lot more acknowledgement and attention than cats.
posted by WeekendJen at 8:41 AM on December 2, 2013 [1 favorite]
You need petfinder.com - theres so many adoption groups out there and the site lets you search with filters for breed, proximity and age. If the dog is going to be home by itself for more than 5 hours at a time you should definitely not get a puppy. A good option is a 1-3 year old dog. They will still have puppy playful personality but will be likely be more socialized to people (by either rescue workers or foster parents) and might even be housebroken already. Do not underestimate the task of housebreaking a puppy.
I adopted my lazy daisy about 3 years ago when she was 1-2 years old. I still spend at least an hour a day on her exercise (walking, trotting at the park). Dogs also seem to me to have more...need for human involvement than cats. Dogs seem to like a lot more acknowledgement and attention than cats.
posted by WeekendJen at 8:41 AM on December 2, 2013 [1 favorite]
The only way I can see a puppy working out is if you adopt a puppy that is a little on the older side -- say 12 weeks instead of 8. Then, you and your partner each take your full two weeks of vacation back to back, resulting in a full month of someone being at home all day with the puppy. This should give you time to make sure it has all its shots, is fixed, and everything it's going to need to become a part of the Dog Industrial Complex.
Because the next step is just that -- a four month old puppy doesn't have the bladder control to be alone all day without walks. You might be able to strike up a deal with a dog walker to do two walks per day rather than just the one, or it might be better to look into dog daycare.
Dog daycare will also take up some of that crazy puppy energy and socialize it well with both people and other dogs. That said, I'm not sure what the age cutoff for daycare is aside from them needing to have all their shots, be spayed/neutered, and be on some form of flea control. You should definitely look into this before you adopt.
I think once the dog is 6-8 months old it might be OK home alone during the day, with the dog walker that you are going to need regardless of what kind of dog you get or how old it is. I think the rule of thumb is an hour per month of the dog's age for the first year?
posted by Sara C. at 9:14 AM on December 2, 2013 [1 favorite]
Because the next step is just that -- a four month old puppy doesn't have the bladder control to be alone all day without walks. You might be able to strike up a deal with a dog walker to do two walks per day rather than just the one, or it might be better to look into dog daycare.
Dog daycare will also take up some of that crazy puppy energy and socialize it well with both people and other dogs. That said, I'm not sure what the age cutoff for daycare is aside from them needing to have all their shots, be spayed/neutered, and be on some form of flea control. You should definitely look into this before you adopt.
I think once the dog is 6-8 months old it might be OK home alone during the day, with the dog walker that you are going to need regardless of what kind of dog you get or how old it is. I think the rule of thumb is an hour per month of the dog's age for the first year?
posted by Sara C. at 9:14 AM on December 2, 2013 [1 favorite]
If you're dead set on getting a puppy (and I agree that an older dog would be a much better choice for you, just because shark teeth are adorable doesn't mean your situation is going to be fair to a puppy), I am going to respectfully suggest that you need to do a LOT more research about how to find a good breeder. Yes, puppy mills in PA are a huge, huge thing, and a store that sells puppies is a terrible place to find a puppy--they are all, virtually without exception, from puppy mills. Please Google "how to find an ethical breeder." You'll find tons of information.
posted by HotToddy at 9:51 AM on December 2, 2013
posted by HotToddy at 9:51 AM on December 2, 2013
Re puppy mills in PA - is this a thing?
Yes, the Amish are notorious puppy millers.
How can I tell them apart before going to meet and choose a dog?
First, you should assume that a breeder is unethical (is a puppy-miller or casual breeder) until you have some reason to believe otherwise. There are lots more casual breeders (that is, dumbasses who can happen to own an intact bitch so why not get it knocked up?) than ethical breeders.
If you want an example of an ethical breeder's web presence, look at biscotti's. Especially her "litters" page, and double-especially the "If you are interested in a puppy" section. I wouldn't regard someone whose web presence isn't as quite as good as hers as a strong negative, though; even among ethical breeders biscotti takes this shit really seriously. For example, while raising the puppies entirely in the home is best, some still-pretty-ethical breeders might not.
I've memailed you a few examples of kennels I'd mark as unethical (not doing it here to avoid legal/harassment problems if they're habitual self-googlers).
Things you want to see/hear in their online presence or in your first conversation:
HEALTH TESTING
A health guarantee.
Something similar to biscotti's "You can't just have one of our puppies" language. In your first conversation, you should feel like you're being evaluated, because you are.
Requirement to return the dog to the breeder and not place in rescue or shelter.
They should be willing (or even eager) to meet with you at their home to further evaluate you and show you how their dogs are kept. We like this part because our dogs just sort of swarm them and demand treats while we point into the little room off the family room and say "This is where they'll be born; we'll keep them in here until they're ~4 weeks old and then they move out to the little sitting room where I have my coffee every morning."
Things that are bad signs:
We always have puppies available!
More than one or at absolute most two breeds.
"CHAMPION BLOODLINES!" mentioned prominently; this is a meaningless statement except that any dog that isn't is more-or-less by definition the product of several generations of careless, casual breeding.
Mention of being USDA-licensed as a plus (this means that the dogs are, and have to be, treated like livestock).
In general, lots of marketing crap and salesmanship is a bad sign. Ethical breeders aren't generally worried about looking for buyers; they're looking to screen buyers instead.
Putting prices on the web page is not a great sign. Among ethical breeders the basic assumption is that potential buyers already know that the price is $LOTS.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 9:52 AM on December 2, 2013 [3 favorites]
Yes, the Amish are notorious puppy millers.
How can I tell them apart before going to meet and choose a dog?
First, you should assume that a breeder is unethical (is a puppy-miller or casual breeder) until you have some reason to believe otherwise. There are lots more casual breeders (that is, dumbasses who can happen to own an intact bitch so why not get it knocked up?) than ethical breeders.
If you want an example of an ethical breeder's web presence, look at biscotti's. Especially her "litters" page, and double-especially the "If you are interested in a puppy" section. I wouldn't regard someone whose web presence isn't as quite as good as hers as a strong negative, though; even among ethical breeders biscotti takes this shit really seriously. For example, while raising the puppies entirely in the home is best, some still-pretty-ethical breeders might not.
I've memailed you a few examples of kennels I'd mark as unethical (not doing it here to avoid legal/harassment problems if they're habitual self-googlers).
Things you want to see/hear in their online presence or in your first conversation:
HEALTH TESTING
A health guarantee.
Something similar to biscotti's "You can't just have one of our puppies" language. In your first conversation, you should feel like you're being evaluated, because you are.
Requirement to return the dog to the breeder and not place in rescue or shelter.
They should be willing (or even eager) to meet with you at their home to further evaluate you and show you how their dogs are kept. We like this part because our dogs just sort of swarm them and demand treats while we point into the little room off the family room and say "This is where they'll be born; we'll keep them in here until they're ~4 weeks old and then they move out to the little sitting room where I have my coffee every morning."
Things that are bad signs:
We always have puppies available!
More than one or at absolute most two breeds.
"CHAMPION BLOODLINES!" mentioned prominently; this is a meaningless statement except that any dog that isn't is more-or-less by definition the product of several generations of careless, casual breeding.
Mention of being USDA-licensed as a plus (this means that the dogs are, and have to be, treated like livestock).
In general, lots of marketing crap and salesmanship is a bad sign. Ethical breeders aren't generally worried about looking for buyers; they're looking to screen buyers instead.
Putting prices on the web page is not a great sign. Among ethical breeders the basic assumption is that potential buyers already know that the price is $LOTS.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 9:52 AM on December 2, 2013 [3 favorites]
Oh yeah, and anyone that intentionally offers mixed breeds or "designer" dogs is unethical.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 9:55 AM on December 2, 2013
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 9:55 AM on December 2, 2013
A golden retriever or standard poodle sounds like a good dog for you. They need exercise, like all dogs. A puppy might do better with cats, but I've had several adult shelter dogs who did just fine with cats. I recommend making sure the cats have a place to eat and use the litter box that the dog can't get to.
Puppies require a huge amount of attention and training. Young puppies shouldn't be left alone for long periods. If no one's at home during the day, you should really think about this choice.
You have kids?
http://listdose.com/top-10-dog-breeds-that-bite-the-most/
http://www.dogsbite.org/dog-bite-statistics.php
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2010/11/01/dangerous-dogs-ranked-by-breed-pit-bulls-chows-chows-lead.html
There's a lot of defense-of-pit-bulls, but I agree with you, and would add rottweiler, chow, and German shepherd.
posted by theora55 at 10:06 AM on December 2, 2013
Puppies require a huge amount of attention and training. Young puppies shouldn't be left alone for long periods. If no one's at home during the day, you should really think about this choice.
You have kids?
http://listdose.com/top-10-dog-breeds-that-bite-the-most/
http://www.dogsbite.org/dog-bite-statistics.php
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2010/11/01/dangerous-dogs-ranked-by-breed-pit-bulls-chows-chows-lead.html
There's a lot of defense-of-pit-bulls, but I agree with you, and would add rottweiler, chow, and German shepherd.
posted by theora55 at 10:06 AM on December 2, 2013
Yes, backyard breeders and puppy mills are rampant everywhere. A lot are well intentioned - they have a great labrador, and know a buddy with a poodle. Why not breed them and make some labradoodles - those are supposed to be great dogs!
There are a multitude of problems with that - I hope that's obvious. Bloodline/health problems/ unknowledgeable breeding and puppy-raising practices - it's well-intentioned, but a major problem.
So how I picked ours out was:
1. Do they have a website? I had to be a little more lenient on this one because a lot of breeders are people who didn't grow up with the web, and more often than not, middle-aged women. Still, I was picky and wanted at least some kind of regularly updated website or facebook. I'm not super up on Metafilter etiquette so I'll take this down if it is bothersome, but http://www.magisterialkennels.com/ is an example of something I'm quite happy with. (Those are the guys we're getting our pup from.) They have a few 'sketchy' practices that some people dislike. They breed three types of dogs (they 'own' a lot of dogs, but most are in guardianship homes in the local area). They had a litter right around Christmastime (I can't really blame the mother for having her heat at an inconvenient time...). They ship dogs (worldwide - some people take issue with this and there ARE problems with shipping). In some ways they have a mysteriously fancy setup, but I'm not about to blame someone for having money.
These are something you need to look out for, but they also are very upfront about what they do and why, were willing to give us all the information we required, and grilled us about our own living conditions to make sure we were a good fit. People come back to them time and time again for multiple dogs, they have an extensive health guarantee, and well, they were very friendly! Their facebook is very open about who their pups went to, and if I wanted to, I could easily organize meeting them before any commitment was made.
2. Already mentioned this, but look at the Puppy Application. (this is why I think a website is important, but some do this over the phone). This will be invasive, and whilst the breeder WANTS to sell the dog, they should be willing to say No for the good of the dog. You will want to have the mother onsite (obviously), the father is rarely there. Ask the breeder questions too. Are the parents exceptional in some way? (Our stud is a therapy dog, a very young champion, does obedience, etc, etc.) What are the general health issues in the breed? Look this up beforehand, make sure they check off the big ones in the list. If they don't know this, there are major issues. Don't ask about their specific line, just the breed. If they volunteer that they've had health issues in the past, that is fine (it happens) - but what have they done to resolve this? Have they used the stud before? How many litters has the mother had/how many pups per litter/how often have they bred her? Be anal - they should be too. Visit if you can before making a commitment, actually see where the dogs are raised. Most breeders will have a setup in home - that's okay - be careful of exterior kennels. I'm sure some are very professionally set up and clean, but all the breeders I've been to have set aside space in their home so the dogs are not isolated.
3. Is the price fair? Like I said before, look for at least $1000 a dog nowadays (and like Xeno said, $1000 is lowballing it - I saw mostly $1400-2500 from reputable places). My mother was astounded as 5 or so years ago, $900 got us a lovely purebred Belgian, but prices are ever going up. Ours is $1400, and for a standard poodle, that is actually quite inexpensive but about right for our area. Common breeds like a labrador tend to be a bit on the cheaper end because of supply and demand, but lower prices get you into "you get what you pay for" territory. Lineage, personality, and breeder responsibility are what you are paying for - don't skimp or you'll have to worry about health or mental problems for the rest of your dog's life.
4. When you visit your puppy, it should be clean and presentable. Most breeders wash them right before a series of visits. There might be a little pee on the papers or something, that's inevitable, but if you see a lot of grunge, the mother is filthy and uncared for (though they can look bedraggled!) - walk away. The dog is unlikely to come to you as a mentally healthy specimen. Reputable breeders will try to expose even baby pups to as many new experiences as possible, and make sure they're totally integrated into a normal home. When we visited, there was someone vacuuming the stairs and nobody in the house even batted an eye to the noise. All the pups were happy and nappy from dinner, the mother was an absolute sweetie, and the breeders were more than willing to take time out of their sunday dinner to blab like proud parents about their dogs for over an hour. And that was after us being 15 min late and overall a little sketchy. (Ours actually start the pups on very simple crate training early to make the transition easier once everything in the dog's life changes at once. Some breeders do some rudimentary clicker training with their puppies. Some start potty training.)
5. Make sure it's a purebred, or if you are going for a designer crossbreed, scrutinize them 10x more than a purebred. Crossbreeds are not registered, so can really be absolutely anything they say. There are associations for responsible crossbreeding though, and rankings of best breeders and the like. I found ONE labradoodle breeder I was willing to consider after cutting out all the iffy ones. In the end, we went with the purebred anyway.
Does this seem super anal? Yep! Honestly though, you will spend most of your time looking for websites with puppy pictures, so it's not too bad. :) I'd say narrow down your desired breed, then work your way from there. AKC has a breeder classifieds section that may be helpful, but I mostly just googled my way to victory. We were looking on kijiji for a while, and there were a few tempting backyard breeders for doodles, but we finally decided against it and are quite happy we did.
You should have no problem finding a breeder in driving distance. When I was little, our breeders were always 4-5 hours away but that may have been because my parents like roadtrips... Ours is only 1/2 hour away, though we were considering anything within 5 hours.
posted by aggyface at 10:09 AM on December 2, 2013 [1 favorite]
There are a multitude of problems with that - I hope that's obvious. Bloodline/health problems/ unknowledgeable breeding and puppy-raising practices - it's well-intentioned, but a major problem.
So how I picked ours out was:
1. Do they have a website? I had to be a little more lenient on this one because a lot of breeders are people who didn't grow up with the web, and more often than not, middle-aged women. Still, I was picky and wanted at least some kind of regularly updated website or facebook. I'm not super up on Metafilter etiquette so I'll take this down if it is bothersome, but http://www.magisterialkennels.com/ is an example of something I'm quite happy with. (Those are the guys we're getting our pup from.) They have a few 'sketchy' practices that some people dislike. They breed three types of dogs (they 'own' a lot of dogs, but most are in guardianship homes in the local area). They had a litter right around Christmastime (I can't really blame the mother for having her heat at an inconvenient time...). They ship dogs (worldwide - some people take issue with this and there ARE problems with shipping). In some ways they have a mysteriously fancy setup, but I'm not about to blame someone for having money.
These are something you need to look out for, but they also are very upfront about what they do and why, were willing to give us all the information we required, and grilled us about our own living conditions to make sure we were a good fit. People come back to them time and time again for multiple dogs, they have an extensive health guarantee, and well, they were very friendly! Their facebook is very open about who their pups went to, and if I wanted to, I could easily organize meeting them before any commitment was made.
2. Already mentioned this, but look at the Puppy Application. (this is why I think a website is important, but some do this over the phone). This will be invasive, and whilst the breeder WANTS to sell the dog, they should be willing to say No for the good of the dog. You will want to have the mother onsite (obviously), the father is rarely there. Ask the breeder questions too. Are the parents exceptional in some way? (Our stud is a therapy dog, a very young champion, does obedience, etc, etc.) What are the general health issues in the breed? Look this up beforehand, make sure they check off the big ones in the list. If they don't know this, there are major issues. Don't ask about their specific line, just the breed. If they volunteer that they've had health issues in the past, that is fine (it happens) - but what have they done to resolve this? Have they used the stud before? How many litters has the mother had/how many pups per litter/how often have they bred her? Be anal - they should be too. Visit if you can before making a commitment, actually see where the dogs are raised. Most breeders will have a setup in home - that's okay - be careful of exterior kennels. I'm sure some are very professionally set up and clean, but all the breeders I've been to have set aside space in their home so the dogs are not isolated.
3. Is the price fair? Like I said before, look for at least $1000 a dog nowadays (and like Xeno said, $1000 is lowballing it - I saw mostly $1400-2500 from reputable places). My mother was astounded as 5 or so years ago, $900 got us a lovely purebred Belgian, but prices are ever going up. Ours is $1400, and for a standard poodle, that is actually quite inexpensive but about right for our area. Common breeds like a labrador tend to be a bit on the cheaper end because of supply and demand, but lower prices get you into "you get what you pay for" territory. Lineage, personality, and breeder responsibility are what you are paying for - don't skimp or you'll have to worry about health or mental problems for the rest of your dog's life.
4. When you visit your puppy, it should be clean and presentable. Most breeders wash them right before a series of visits. There might be a little pee on the papers or something, that's inevitable, but if you see a lot of grunge, the mother is filthy and uncared for (though they can look bedraggled!) - walk away. The dog is unlikely to come to you as a mentally healthy specimen. Reputable breeders will try to expose even baby pups to as many new experiences as possible, and make sure they're totally integrated into a normal home. When we visited, there was someone vacuuming the stairs and nobody in the house even batted an eye to the noise. All the pups were happy and nappy from dinner, the mother was an absolute sweetie, and the breeders were more than willing to take time out of their sunday dinner to blab like proud parents about their dogs for over an hour. And that was after us being 15 min late and overall a little sketchy. (Ours actually start the pups on very simple crate training early to make the transition easier once everything in the dog's life changes at once. Some breeders do some rudimentary clicker training with their puppies. Some start potty training.)
5. Make sure it's a purebred, or if you are going for a designer crossbreed, scrutinize them 10x more than a purebred. Crossbreeds are not registered, so can really be absolutely anything they say. There are associations for responsible crossbreeding though, and rankings of best breeders and the like. I found ONE labradoodle breeder I was willing to consider after cutting out all the iffy ones. In the end, we went with the purebred anyway.
Does this seem super anal? Yep! Honestly though, you will spend most of your time looking for websites with puppy pictures, so it's not too bad. :) I'd say narrow down your desired breed, then work your way from there. AKC has a breeder classifieds section that may be helpful, but I mostly just googled my way to victory. We were looking on kijiji for a while, and there were a few tempting backyard breeders for doodles, but we finally decided against it and are quite happy we did.
You should have no problem finding a breeder in driving distance. When I was little, our breeders were always 4-5 hours away but that may have been because my parents like roadtrips... Ours is only 1/2 hour away, though we were considering anything within 5 hours.
posted by aggyface at 10:09 AM on December 2, 2013 [1 favorite]
You should have no problem finding a breeder in driving distance.
...unless you end up wanting a rare breed. For instance, the nearest ethicalish vallhund* breeders to NYC would be (IIRC) us in Buffalo, or Massachusetts, or Ottawa, or the Carolinas.
*Not that you want a vallhund. I think they'd be poorly suited to your setup. But I have rough ideas of where the other breeders are, is all.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 10:56 AM on December 2, 2013
...unless you end up wanting a rare breed. For instance, the nearest ethicalish vallhund* breeders to NYC would be (IIRC) us in Buffalo, or Massachusetts, or Ottawa, or the Carolinas.
*Not that you want a vallhund. I think they'd be poorly suited to your setup. But I have rough ideas of where the other breeders are, is all.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 10:56 AM on December 2, 2013
A golden retriever or standard poodle sounds like a good dog for you. They need exercise, like all dogs.
I'm going to completely disagree with this about golden retrievers. My family is on their third golden, and while I love them, they are incredibly needy dogs with an inexhaustible amount of energy, and they are prone to all sorts of health problems.
We actually got our first golden from a family that got a golden retriever puppy as their first dog, without knowing how much work they are and how they really cannot be left alone all day.
They're wonderful dogs and I love them, but I also had a golden retriever puppy who used his puppy shark teeth to eat the walls of the house.
posted by inertia at 12:01 PM on December 2, 2013
I'm going to completely disagree with this about golden retrievers. My family is on their third golden, and while I love them, they are incredibly needy dogs with an inexhaustible amount of energy, and they are prone to all sorts of health problems.
We actually got our first golden from a family that got a golden retriever puppy as their first dog, without knowing how much work they are and how they really cannot be left alone all day.
They're wonderful dogs and I love them, but I also had a golden retriever puppy who used his puppy shark teeth to eat the walls of the house.
posted by inertia at 12:01 PM on December 2, 2013
Xeno, you make a fair point. I forgot that they were in Zipcar distance. To me, driving distance is anything up to 8 hours away because of how I grew up... I forget that to most people, that's ridiculous. I'm actually not even sure if they allow dogs in a Zipcar?
We had a lot of trouble finding a ethicalish (good word, btw) Wheaten breeder (another non-shedder we were looking at before we landed on poodle). The only one we found 'nearby' that looked active was 6 hours away. The breeder we went with is one we very much lucked out on, location-wise.
I've never personally dealt with shipping puppies though if they are set on something specific, so I won't pretend to comment on that. There's been a lot of negative dog-shipping stories in the media recently, but objectively I don't know how common it is or how much fearmongering is going on.
posted by aggyface at 12:04 PM on December 2, 2013
We had a lot of trouble finding a ethicalish (good word, btw) Wheaten breeder (another non-shedder we were looking at before we landed on poodle). The only one we found 'nearby' that looked active was 6 hours away. The breeder we went with is one we very much lucked out on, location-wise.
I've never personally dealt with shipping puppies though if they are set on something specific, so I won't pretend to comment on that. There's been a lot of negative dog-shipping stories in the media recently, but objectively I don't know how common it is or how much fearmongering is going on.
posted by aggyface at 12:04 PM on December 2, 2013
I love goldens and think one could work out for you, but just to give you a sense of how needy they are, an anecdote. There's a house around the corner from me where the family who lives there has a golden retriever who lives in the yard. This dog is so human-focused that, when I walk by with my dog, she invariably runs over to the fence with a big smile on her face, comes straight to me without even noticing my dog, and presses herself against the chain link fence so that I can pet her.
I don't know the family at all and have never gotten closer to her than a scritch behind the ears through the fence. And after I do my little "PRETTY GIRL! GOOD SIT!" and as many pets as I can get in through a fence, and my own dog is looking at me all "wow much stranger very who the fuck even is that doge", we move on. She follows us as far as the fence will let her, and then whimpers as we walk away.
And all this is going down on a Saturday afternoon when her people are home and she's presumably getting some human interaction.
I think if you have school aged older kids, such that someone is home at around 3pm, and you get a dog walker, a golden retriever could still work. It's not like they can never be alone at all. But, yeah, they are so sociable and people-oriented that you really need to be a committed dog lover. They require a lot of attention.
posted by Sara C. at 12:20 PM on December 2, 2013 [1 favorite]
I don't know the family at all and have never gotten closer to her than a scritch behind the ears through the fence. And after I do my little "PRETTY GIRL! GOOD SIT!" and as many pets as I can get in through a fence, and my own dog is looking at me all "wow much stranger very who the fuck even is that doge", we move on. She follows us as far as the fence will let her, and then whimpers as we walk away.
And all this is going down on a Saturday afternoon when her people are home and she's presumably getting some human interaction.
I think if you have school aged older kids, such that someone is home at around 3pm, and you get a dog walker, a golden retriever could still work. It's not like they can never be alone at all. But, yeah, they are so sociable and people-oriented that you really need to be a committed dog lover. They require a lot of attention.
posted by Sara C. at 12:20 PM on December 2, 2013 [1 favorite]
If you're looking at adopting a purebred, and since you are in NYC, how about looking at breeds & breeders at the Westminster Kennel Club - and it's happening in just a couple months:
http://www.westminsterkennelclub.org/2014/show/tickets.html
You can look at the list of dogs and find out their breeders names - and then contact the breeders directly. Many of the best dog breeders do not have web sites at all. With a litter every year or two, and a strong word-of-mouth reputation, they don't need it. Most breeders will want to meet you before they approve you for adoption.
If you're looking at adopting from a shelter or a rescue, then can I recommend volunteering at a shelter or fostering for a rescue? Then you can learn about puppies as they come in, and also learn about useful resources for when your dog is growing up (positive training courses for puppies, etc).
Alternatively, get to know a Veterinarian (best might be a Veterinarian Behaviorist who works with dogs). Often they will know of a fantastic dog or puppy needing a good home.
And when you do get ready for your puppy, I highly endorse Dr. Sophia Yin's Perfect Puppy book.
posted by apennington at 1:52 PM on December 2, 2013
http://www.westminsterkennelclub.org/2014/show/tickets.html
You can look at the list of dogs and find out their breeders names - and then contact the breeders directly. Many of the best dog breeders do not have web sites at all. With a litter every year or two, and a strong word-of-mouth reputation, they don't need it. Most breeders will want to meet you before they approve you for adoption.
If you're looking at adopting from a shelter or a rescue, then can I recommend volunteering at a shelter or fostering for a rescue? Then you can learn about puppies as they come in, and also learn about useful resources for when your dog is growing up (positive training courses for puppies, etc).
Alternatively, get to know a Veterinarian (best might be a Veterinarian Behaviorist who works with dogs). Often they will know of a fantastic dog or puppy needing a good home.
And when you do get ready for your puppy, I highly endorse Dr. Sophia Yin's Perfect Puppy book.
posted by apennington at 1:52 PM on December 2, 2013
If you're set on getting a puppy, you absolutely need to figure out how it is going to be walked during the day - every two-three hours until it's 4 or 5 months and then every 5 hours until it's a year or so. There are dog-walkers who will do "puppy visits" (ie, short stops in to walk the puppy around the block and let it pee) so you'll want to look into that.
You'll also need to figure out how you're going to spend about an hour/day on top of that on training and exercise. There's no such thing as a low-energy puppy (any more than there's such thing as a low-energy toddler) and walks are not really an effective way to burn off energy for a young dog. They need to run and chase and scavenge. If you have an off-leash dog run near you, then you can take it there once it's had its shots. Or you can take it to a regular park and let it run and play fetch on a long lead.
Before I started researching puppies, I would have thought all this was crazy-talk, but speaking as someone who has a puppy that is now almost a year old, it really isn't. Puppies are a LOT of work.
It probably sounds like I'm nay-saying getting a puppy, but I'm actually not. Puppies are so much work, but they are also so much fun. And it's so satisfying to raise a puppy and see the fruits of your training as it learns new things. As long as you have a plan in place to deal with the hard-work parts, it's very rewarding.
posted by lunasol at 4:32 PM on December 2, 2013 [1 favorite]
You'll also need to figure out how you're going to spend about an hour/day on top of that on training and exercise. There's no such thing as a low-energy puppy (any more than there's such thing as a low-energy toddler) and walks are not really an effective way to burn off energy for a young dog. They need to run and chase and scavenge. If you have an off-leash dog run near you, then you can take it there once it's had its shots. Or you can take it to a regular park and let it run and play fetch on a long lead.
Before I started researching puppies, I would have thought all this was crazy-talk, but speaking as someone who has a puppy that is now almost a year old, it really isn't. Puppies are a LOT of work.
It probably sounds like I'm nay-saying getting a puppy, but I'm actually not. Puppies are so much work, but they are also so much fun. And it's so satisfying to raise a puppy and see the fruits of your training as it learns new things. As long as you have a plan in place to deal with the hard-work parts, it's very rewarding.
posted by lunasol at 4:32 PM on December 2, 2013 [1 favorite]
My parents got us a collie puppy (purebred, reputable breeder who had us visit several times and met the whole family, and we stayed in touch etc) when my brother and I were 11 and 7. He was ten weeks or so when we got him, so tiny fuzzball. We went with a breeder because I wanted a collie more than anything ever and my parents were nervous first time pet people and wanted to know they would get an animal whose behavior was somewhat predictable based on breed - and it was, great with kids, tried to eat bees, barked a lot, very smart, collie things.
He was so, so fun but so much work. The way I remember it, I "helped" a lot because I was older, but I probably didn't help as much as I thought I did. I slept with him when he cried for mom the first few nights, and took him for walks and such, but I'm sure my parents did a lot of heavy lifting/puke cleaning/stuff repurchasing I don't know about. For the first year or so, whenever it was quiet and he wasn't in the room, he was guaranteed chewing on something or peeing somewhere, usually the most expensive/unique things in the house.
We lived in a big house in the VA suburbs, so not NYC, and my parents are both professionals but my mom has sort of unconventional non officey hours so could be home sometimes. Lots of work, though, lots and lots.
People do this in NYC, but they have all day daycare for the puppy and spend all their free time with the puppy. I have a friend who just got a Lab/Boxer mix and he has a person in his home watching the dog all day right now. When he's not at work, he's all puppy all the time and plans to be that way for the next year or so. He doesn't have kids or other pets.
If you're set on the puppy because of the fun of watching them grow into their silly floppy feet, and their endless kidlike curiosity, and being the one that teaches them all the things, that is truly awesome, but that takes a lot of time and work and basically giving a chunk of life over to this project.
posted by sweetkid at 6:47 PM on December 2, 2013 [1 favorite]
He was so, so fun but so much work. The way I remember it, I "helped" a lot because I was older, but I probably didn't help as much as I thought I did. I slept with him when he cried for mom the first few nights, and took him for walks and such, but I'm sure my parents did a lot of heavy lifting/puke cleaning/stuff repurchasing I don't know about. For the first year or so, whenever it was quiet and he wasn't in the room, he was guaranteed chewing on something or peeing somewhere, usually the most expensive/unique things in the house.
We lived in a big house in the VA suburbs, so not NYC, and my parents are both professionals but my mom has sort of unconventional non officey hours so could be home sometimes. Lots of work, though, lots and lots.
People do this in NYC, but they have all day daycare for the puppy and spend all their free time with the puppy. I have a friend who just got a Lab/Boxer mix and he has a person in his home watching the dog all day right now. When he's not at work, he's all puppy all the time and plans to be that way for the next year or so. He doesn't have kids or other pets.
If you're set on the puppy because of the fun of watching them grow into their silly floppy feet, and their endless kidlike curiosity, and being the one that teaches them all the things, that is truly awesome, but that takes a lot of time and work and basically giving a chunk of life over to this project.
posted by sweetkid at 6:47 PM on December 2, 2013 [1 favorite]
Also seriously if you are more into getting a puppy because PPPUUUUPPPPPPPYYYYYYY and razorteeth sharkbabby and da widdle feetsies and all, keep in mind that other people bring their puppies to dog parks like all the time.
Having any dog at all gets you entrance to the world of Dog Ownership, one of the perks of which is that your chances of a puppy encounter go way up. Without having to actually do the annoying parts of raising a puppy.
posted by Sara C. at 7:05 PM on December 2, 2013 [2 favorites]
Having any dog at all gets you entrance to the world of Dog Ownership, one of the perks of which is that your chances of a puppy encounter go way up. Without having to actually do the annoying parts of raising a puppy.
posted by Sara C. at 7:05 PM on December 2, 2013 [2 favorites]
Having any dog at all gets you entrance to the world of Dog Ownership, one of the perks of which is that your chances of a puppy encounter go way up. Without having to actually do the annoying parts of raising a puppy.
This is a very, very good point. About once a week or so, someone brings a new puppy to my neighborhood dog park and we all get to squee and aww and giggle at its floppy feet and goofy demeanor, and then smile and roll our eyes at each other and say how glad we are that our dogs are now of an age where we get to sleep through the night and don't have to spend all our time worrying about them peeing or chewing on something.
posted by lunasol at 10:02 AM on December 3, 2013
This is a very, very good point. About once a week or so, someone brings a new puppy to my neighborhood dog park and we all get to squee and aww and giggle at its floppy feet and goofy demeanor, and then smile and roll our eyes at each other and say how glad we are that our dogs are now of an age where we get to sleep through the night and don't have to spend all our time worrying about them peeing or chewing on something.
posted by lunasol at 10:02 AM on December 3, 2013
Response by poster: Okay, after a lot of thought all around, we've decided that we're going to try to wait to get the puppy and time it if possible so that it coincides with summer vacation, so that we only have to get one babysitter for both child and puppy at the same time, and the puppy can have full time care for its first few months in our house.
Also hopefully this means there will be more puppies by good breeders out and less people putting up pictures of their puppies with adorable Christmas bows on that are totally begging for impulse buys.
I am still not sure as to breed, though.
posted by corb at 7:19 PM on December 4, 2013 [2 favorites]
Also hopefully this means there will be more puppies by good breeders out and less people putting up pictures of their puppies with adorable Christmas bows on that are totally begging for impulse buys.
I am still not sure as to breed, though.
posted by corb at 7:19 PM on December 4, 2013 [2 favorites]
Knowing that you plan to adopt a puppy in 6 months is pretty great, because it gives you a lot of time to get your ducks in a row.
Right now, you should be contacting breeders and breed specific rescues in your area. And, yes, rescues do sometimes have puppies. Even the ones who don't may be able to put you in touch with reputable breeders in your area. (Often the rescues are subsets of things like [Local Area] [Breed] Appreciation Society type groups.)
If you end up getting a puppy from a breeder, creating a relationship in advance will enable you to pick the right breeder as well as reserving puppies in advance. I absolutely would not trust breeders that just had puppies around all the time. You want to talk to a breeder, find out that they will be expecting a litter in March or April, puppies will be ready to go home in May or June, something like that.
If you end up with a rescue group, you can put your name on a wait list for puppies, if such a thing exists. Or, again, consult with said groups and their connections to find the right breeder for you.
Re breeds, I fed your specifications (apartment dog, on the large size, good with young kids, not too active) through one of those online Dog Breed Selectors and got
Basset Hound
Goldendoodle
Greyhound
Keeshond
Lurcher
Portuguese Water Dog
Samoyed
So if you like any of those breeds, you could always start looking for rescues and breeders in your area. You mention that you like GSDs and Golden Retrievers, so even if you think those breeds might not be ideal for your situation, it wouldn't hurt to talk to some rescues and get their input on whether those breeds might be OK or not. They're not going to let you go home with a dog they don't think is going to work out, after all.
FWIW my neighbors across the street have a German Shepherd, a toddler, a house that can't be any bigger than 3000 sf, and a small unfenced yard, and they seem to be doing OK. Their GSD is beautiful and impeccably trained, as well (though he's a retired police dog, so YMMV).
posted by Sara C. at 8:09 PM on December 4, 2013 [2 favorites]
Right now, you should be contacting breeders and breed specific rescues in your area. And, yes, rescues do sometimes have puppies. Even the ones who don't may be able to put you in touch with reputable breeders in your area. (Often the rescues are subsets of things like [Local Area] [Breed] Appreciation Society type groups.)
If you end up getting a puppy from a breeder, creating a relationship in advance will enable you to pick the right breeder as well as reserving puppies in advance. I absolutely would not trust breeders that just had puppies around all the time. You want to talk to a breeder, find out that they will be expecting a litter in March or April, puppies will be ready to go home in May or June, something like that.
If you end up with a rescue group, you can put your name on a wait list for puppies, if such a thing exists. Or, again, consult with said groups and their connections to find the right breeder for you.
Re breeds, I fed your specifications (apartment dog, on the large size, good with young kids, not too active) through one of those online Dog Breed Selectors and got
Basset Hound
Goldendoodle
Greyhound
Keeshond
Lurcher
Portuguese Water Dog
Samoyed
So if you like any of those breeds, you could always start looking for rescues and breeders in your area. You mention that you like GSDs and Golden Retrievers, so even if you think those breeds might not be ideal for your situation, it wouldn't hurt to talk to some rescues and get their input on whether those breeds might be OK or not. They're not going to let you go home with a dog they don't think is going to work out, after all.
FWIW my neighbors across the street have a German Shepherd, a toddler, a house that can't be any bigger than 3000 sf, and a small unfenced yard, and they seem to be doing OK. Their GSD is beautiful and impeccably trained, as well (though he's a retired police dog, so YMMV).
posted by Sara C. at 8:09 PM on December 4, 2013 [2 favorites]
That sounds like a really solid plan. I live in a dense urban neighborhood (mostly apartments) and here are some of the dogs that seem to be really popular here:
- doodles (labradoodles and goldendoodles) - great personalities, very smart, but need lots of exercise and can be a bit willful as puppies
- Labs - these are sort of the classic good-for-a-family dogs. Very smart and trainable, but again, need a lot of exercise, especially when they're young.
- Bernese Mountain dogs - these are HUGE but pretty calm. They have very short lifespans (6-8 years), though, which is hard.
- Various spaniels and pointer dogs
You may want to look into mixes as well, because they tend to have less health problems (see the recent FPP about what overbreeding has done to some great breeds). For instance, I've lived with 3 different roommates that had black lab mixes. All had the good things about the black lab breed (affectionate nature, good with kids, easy to train) but none of the common health problems.
As for finding a puppy, you could start tapping into the local "dog network" when you're getting closer to the date. Call vet's offices, drop by the local dog run and ask around, ask at a (nice, local, not PetSmart, not one that sells animals) pet store. Dog people are great and will want to help you find a good dog.
Also, regardless of what breed you go with, individual dogs' personalities really vary, just like with people. Learn a bit about temperament testing and be prepared to test the temperament of any puppy you visit. It seems a bit silly, but I did these tests with my puppy (who was a total mutt, so it was hard to know how he'd turn out) before I adopted him, and they turned out to be pretty accurate for how he acted as he grew up.
posted by lunasol at 3:24 PM on December 12, 2013
- doodles (labradoodles and goldendoodles) - great personalities, very smart, but need lots of exercise and can be a bit willful as puppies
- Labs - these are sort of the classic good-for-a-family dogs. Very smart and trainable, but again, need a lot of exercise, especially when they're young.
- Bernese Mountain dogs - these are HUGE but pretty calm. They have very short lifespans (6-8 years), though, which is hard.
- Various spaniels and pointer dogs
You may want to look into mixes as well, because they tend to have less health problems (see the recent FPP about what overbreeding has done to some great breeds). For instance, I've lived with 3 different roommates that had black lab mixes. All had the good things about the black lab breed (affectionate nature, good with kids, easy to train) but none of the common health problems.
As for finding a puppy, you could start tapping into the local "dog network" when you're getting closer to the date. Call vet's offices, drop by the local dog run and ask around, ask at a (nice, local, not PetSmart, not one that sells animals) pet store. Dog people are great and will want to help you find a good dog.
Also, regardless of what breed you go with, individual dogs' personalities really vary, just like with people. Learn a bit about temperament testing and be prepared to test the temperament of any puppy you visit. It seems a bit silly, but I did these tests with my puppy (who was a total mutt, so it was hard to know how he'd turn out) before I adopted him, and they turned out to be pretty accurate for how he acted as he grew up.
posted by lunasol at 3:24 PM on December 12, 2013
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The reason you're not finding any puppy sellers that aren't sketchy is that it is a very sketchy and morally suspect business.
posted by jayder at 6:22 PM on December 1, 2013 [24 favorites]