Not sure if this tile has asbestos - freaking out - what to do next?
August 12, 2013 5:28 PM Subscribe
My mom started have our front foyer renovated. It is small (about 50 square feet) and it has some very tacky laminate flooring that she is going to cover it up with a wood pergo. The guy doing it, a friend of hers, has started the process by taking out the radiator covers and removing some of the laminate, where there is tile underneath. (Picture here. The white is on top, then there is a kind of brownish pattern you can't see much of, and then there is the brown and tan tiles on the bottom.) He cut some of the tile away from around the radiators and she said he was planning to remove it all because there were too many layers of old flooring. He did not spray the area down and I don't see a significant amount of dust, but there is definitely some dust and debris around. (In addition to the floor being removed, some wood paneling was removed and replaced with dry wall. Closet door and frame was also removed and will be replaced.) I am freaking out that the tile may be made of asbestos and we've already been exposed to it...
Obviously, I don't know for sure if the tile contains asbestos but this house was built in the 1960s. I am worried about scraping it up to remove it, even if it's not being shredded or crumbled and he's trying to remove it in tact. Even if he's trying to remove it in full pieces, it seems reasonable to think tiles would break during the removal. And it bothers me that he didn't spray the area down or do anything at all in case it was asbestos. I was not home during most of the work so far, but I walk through that foyer every time I enter or leave the house.
1) If this tile does contain some asbestos, how dangerous is this? Could I already have mesothelioma in my lungs that will show up in 30 years?! Should I be worried about this?
2) How much should it cost to get it tested? How long would that take? I am trying to find labs to test it via Google, but is there anything I should look for?
3) How much should having a professional remove it cost? Again, it's only about 50 square feet and she is having a friend do it because it's cheaper that way...
Thanks for any help. Feeling worried.
Obviously, I don't know for sure if the tile contains asbestos but this house was built in the 1960s. I am worried about scraping it up to remove it, even if it's not being shredded or crumbled and he's trying to remove it in tact. Even if he's trying to remove it in full pieces, it seems reasonable to think tiles would break during the removal. And it bothers me that he didn't spray the area down or do anything at all in case it was asbestos. I was not home during most of the work so far, but I walk through that foyer every time I enter or leave the house.
1) If this tile does contain some asbestos, how dangerous is this? Could I already have mesothelioma in my lungs that will show up in 30 years?! Should I be worried about this?
2) How much should it cost to get it tested? How long would that take? I am trying to find labs to test it via Google, but is there anything I should look for?
3) How much should having a professional remove it cost? Again, it's only about 50 square feet and she is having a friend do it because it's cheaper that way...
Thanks for any help. Feeling worried.
Response by poster: I am worried about mesothelioma. Not asbestosis. Two different things.
posted by AppleTurnover at 5:36 PM on August 12, 2013
posted by AppleTurnover at 5:36 PM on August 12, 2013
They (or you) should have the tile tested.
posted by limeonaire at 5:36 PM on August 12, 2013
posted by limeonaire at 5:36 PM on August 12, 2013
From an uneducated and unscientific perspective, there's a reason most people (including the past refinishers) leave these tiles in place and cover over them. Since that's what the last person did, I would save yourself the hassle and assume it's asbestos and just instruct the guy to cover them back up.
posted by Think_Long at 5:44 PM on August 12, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by Think_Long at 5:44 PM on August 12, 2013 [3 favorites]
Think_Long - I would argue that the past refinishers might have just been very lazy, and that is why the old tiles are still there. Sometimes it's just easier to cover things up.
posted by steinwald at 5:46 PM on August 12, 2013
posted by steinwald at 5:46 PM on August 12, 2013
Measure the size of the lowest layer of tiles. If they are 8" square, definitely get that checked out. It was a common size for asbestos tiles into the 50's. THE most common; if they are 1' square I wouldn't sweat it.
posted by Max Power at 5:48 PM on August 12, 2013
posted by Max Power at 5:48 PM on August 12, 2013
Again, the Mayo on risk factors.
Basically, it depends less on straight-up exposure than it does on exposure plus a number of risk factors, some of which are out of your control.
Remediation is usually pretty expensive. Don't hire the guy who bids lowest. Your cheapest option is going to be covering it back up.
posted by rtha at 5:49 PM on August 12, 2013 [3 favorites]
Basically, it depends less on straight-up exposure than it does on exposure plus a number of risk factors, some of which are out of your control.
Remediation is usually pretty expensive. Don't hire the guy who bids lowest. Your cheapest option is going to be covering it back up.
posted by rtha at 5:49 PM on August 12, 2013 [3 favorites]
In most residential cases testing these floor products is probably not justified, but if you prefer to send asbestos-suspect material samples to an NVLAP certified lab, they usually want three separate samples each about 3/4" in diameter, and charge about $20./sample. Here is the NIST link about those labs: http://ts.nist.gov/Standards/scopes/temtm.htm that has a list of participants. NVLAP is a national voluntary lab accreditation program within NIST (National Institute of Standards and Technology) NIST is a non-regulatory federal agency within the U.S. Department of Commerce whose lab program is at http://ts.nist.gov/Standards/Accreditation/index.cfm
posted by edgeways at 5:52 PM on August 12, 2013
posted by edgeways at 5:52 PM on August 12, 2013
This link might be of some short term assistance.
posted by TryTheTilapia at 5:52 PM on August 12, 2013
posted by TryTheTilapia at 5:52 PM on August 12, 2013
Don't judge whether they are asbestos based on the size of the tile; that is a myth. (Non-friable asbestos-containing products such as roofing tar are still on the market in the US today, so even the date isn't 100%.) Also, even if the tile doesn't have asbestos, the mastic (glue) used to apply the tile may.
I would call your local environmental health department tomorrow -- likely at the county level, sometimes at the city level. They may have people who can give you better advice for your jurisdiction.
posted by pie ninja at 5:54 PM on August 12, 2013
I would call your local environmental health department tomorrow -- likely at the county level, sometimes at the city level. They may have people who can give you better advice for your jurisdiction.
posted by pie ninja at 5:54 PM on August 12, 2013
You're not going to get a disease mesothelioma with such limited exposure, even if it is asbestos. During university 20 years ago I did a lot of industrial renovations in old schools and structures built in the 1920's, and a lot of them used asbestos.
Sometimes the remediation team was called in, and we could not work, but sometimes we would encounter the stuff. If you don't breathe it in every day, and get on your clothes and so on, it's not a major hazard (obviously you don't want to roll around in it).
Cover it up and move on.
posted by KokuRyu at 5:59 PM on August 12, 2013 [1 favorite]
Sometimes the remediation team was called in, and we could not work, but sometimes we would encounter the stuff. If you don't breathe it in every day, and get on your clothes and so on, it's not a major hazard (obviously you don't want to roll around in it).
Cover it up and move on.
posted by KokuRyu at 5:59 PM on August 12, 2013 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: If the guy already removed the part around the radiators and it does have asbestos, then would it be safe to simply just cover it back up? My mom claims there was too much extra flooring and it was too high -- I think that's stupid and he should've just covered it, but he has already removed some of it as you can see from the picture. The two major things here are 1) safety 2) cost, in that order.
posted by AppleTurnover at 6:01 PM on August 12, 2013
posted by AppleTurnover at 6:01 PM on August 12, 2013
It seems to me that the issue is that you have a depression where he removed the flooring. I don't know how you will rectify that, but putting in some linoleum to fill the depression would be the best bet.
If there is asbestos under the tile and your mom decides to rip it all out because the floor is too high, then you will probably want to hire a proper remediation service, because that will result in considerable contamination, not only to you, but also downstream.
In the meantime, get some heavy-weight plastic and use duct-tape to seal around the cut.
posted by KokuRyu at 6:05 PM on August 12, 2013
If there is asbestos under the tile and your mom decides to rip it all out because the floor is too high, then you will probably want to hire a proper remediation service, because that will result in considerable contamination, not only to you, but also downstream.
In the meantime, get some heavy-weight plastic and use duct-tape to seal around the cut.
posted by KokuRyu at 6:05 PM on August 12, 2013
Response by poster: Is "asbestos under the tile" a separate source of asbestos, or is that what people are referring to when they talk about when they say asbestos tiling? I had always understood the tile itself to contain asbestos. Why would there be asbestos underneath the tiling? Can you please elaborate, KokoRyu?
posted by AppleTurnover at 6:09 PM on August 12, 2013
posted by AppleTurnover at 6:09 PM on August 12, 2013
KokoRyu is probably referring to the mastic used as the adhesive for the tiles, which often also contains asbestos and is much more friable than the tiles.
And I'll say every contractor I've talked to about this stuff says to just cover it up. We've got tiles that look just like that under the carpet in our basement and our installer said it just wasn't going to be worth our while to deal with abatement.
posted by devinemissk at 6:35 PM on August 12, 2013
And I'll say every contractor I've talked to about this stuff says to just cover it up. We've got tiles that look just like that under the carpet in our basement and our installer said it just wasn't going to be worth our while to deal with abatement.
posted by devinemissk at 6:35 PM on August 12, 2013
We just had asbestos tile removed. In our case, the mastic did not contain asbestos, so we had them leave it in place and just floored over what was left of the black gunk. Getting an estimate was free, and I'd suggest starting there.
For what it's worth, the dark brown tile in bottom-most layer looks exactly like what we had pulled out. However, as far as mesothelioma is concerned, if I understand correctly it's the co-carcinogens of asbestos and smoking that you have to worry about, rather than simple asbestos dust exposure. Until the crew started seriously working on taking the tiles out, we walked around the basement freely, as did the building inspector who pointed the problem out. That said, I think you're absolutely correct to object to any more work being done until it's assessed. The containment process was much more involved than just wetting things down, and I'm happy to have left it to professionals. If your mom changes her mind about the height of the floor though, you can buy a few pieces of 12x12" vinyl flooring to level things back out.
posted by teremala at 6:36 PM on August 12, 2013
For what it's worth, the dark brown tile in bottom-most layer looks exactly like what we had pulled out. However, as far as mesothelioma is concerned, if I understand correctly it's the co-carcinogens of asbestos and smoking that you have to worry about, rather than simple asbestos dust exposure. Until the crew started seriously working on taking the tiles out, we walked around the basement freely, as did the building inspector who pointed the problem out. That said, I think you're absolutely correct to object to any more work being done until it's assessed. The containment process was much more involved than just wetting things down, and I'm happy to have left it to professionals. If your mom changes her mind about the height of the floor though, you can buy a few pieces of 12x12" vinyl flooring to level things back out.
posted by teremala at 6:36 PM on August 12, 2013
Oh and we had ours pulled out because about 60% of it had already come off over the years and it looked terrible. Our goal was to put down new tile without having to pour substrate, and removing the debris was the easiest way to avoid lumps. If it had been more intact, we would have just covered it up like everyone else does.
posted by teremala at 6:44 PM on August 12, 2013
posted by teremala at 6:44 PM on August 12, 2013
I got two (or three?) samples done with 24-hour turnaround for less than $100 from here. They had 8-hour and 48-hour turnaround available for different prices. I live in Oakland, so I dropped a sample off in their after-hours mailbox and got the results emailed to me a day later. Try googling [your city] + asbestos testing.
Until then, stop doing internet research. During that 24 hour wait period, I researched the heck out of old plaster and wallboard types. I found a building built about three years after my house had been renovated, just a mile or so away, that had had environmental and asbestos studies done. Its wallboard, which looked similar to mine in the photos, did contain asbestos. But mine did not. You can waste all night looking up historical tile types and still not get an accurate answer.
posted by slidell at 7:05 PM on August 12, 2013 [1 favorite]
Until then, stop doing internet research. During that 24 hour wait period, I researched the heck out of old plaster and wallboard types. I found a building built about three years after my house had been renovated, just a mile or so away, that had had environmental and asbestos studies done. Its wallboard, which looked similar to mine in the photos, did contain asbestos. But mine did not. You can waste all night looking up historical tile types and still not get an accurate answer.
posted by slidell at 7:05 PM on August 12, 2013 [1 favorite]
If you are cleaning up any dust, you might consider a HEPA vacuum cleaner. They are made to capture things like lead dust instead of spitting the finer particles back in the air.
posted by agog at 8:11 PM on August 12, 2013
posted by agog at 8:11 PM on August 12, 2013
While you're testing stuff, test for lead too. These swabs are a basic start; you can find them at home-improvement stores and Walmart.
posted by nicebookrack at 8:25 PM on August 12, 2013
posted by nicebookrack at 8:25 PM on August 12, 2013
I'd just cover the existing tiles and be done with it. If you keep ripping the tile off, your contractor may end up needing to use a floor sander to get stubborn bits ... then you'll really freak out because your house will be absolutely filthy with tile dust.
If you just go over the existing tile and there is any asbestos there, it'll be covered up and won't be a threat. Use a HEPA vac if you're concerned about any existing dust.
I'd just assume that any house that age has asbestos and lead and act accordingly (i.e., in this case, leave the tile in place and go over it). If you test for asbestos and lead and it's positive, you'll probably have to report that when you sell the house.
If you're worried about mesothelioma (I wouldn't be, but I'm not in the medical field), don't smoke or take vitamin A. That's generally good advice regardless of mesothelioma.
posted by agog at 9:09 PM on August 12, 2013
If you just go over the existing tile and there is any asbestos there, it'll be covered up and won't be a threat. Use a HEPA vac if you're concerned about any existing dust.
I'd just assume that any house that age has asbestos and lead and act accordingly (i.e., in this case, leave the tile in place and go over it). If you test for asbestos and lead and it's positive, you'll probably have to report that when you sell the house.
If you're worried about mesothelioma (I wouldn't be, but I'm not in the medical field), don't smoke or take vitamin A. That's generally good advice regardless of mesothelioma.
posted by agog at 9:09 PM on August 12, 2013
Measure the size of the lowest layer of tiles. If they are 8" square, definitely get that checked out.
Do this, but asbestos tiles are usually 9x9", not 8x8. Also, not all 9x9 tiles have asbestos.
posted by suedehead at 12:07 AM on August 13, 2013
Do this, but asbestos tiles are usually 9x9", not 8x8. Also, not all 9x9 tiles have asbestos.
posted by suedehead at 12:07 AM on August 13, 2013
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posted by rtha at 5:33 PM on August 12, 2013 [1 favorite]