Magical Make-it-Click-Phrase
June 3, 2013 7:01 AM Subscribe
My husband's mother will not accept that we can not accompany them on a family vacation this summer. We need a magical phrase that is going to help her get it.
A couple of months ago they told us they had rented a place on the beach for a week this summer. It is Sunday-Sunday with a check in/out at 9am. He has 4 (out of 14) vacation days left this year that we are saving for Christmas to be able to make the rounds with our families (mine are about 2.5 hours away his are about 5.5 hours away in opposite directions). We had a baby this year, so he used the majority of his time off for that. We would love to be able to take a vacation. Heck, a free place on the beach with a built in baby sitter? Yes please! However, he is not going to magically get any more paid days off. We can not afford to take any unpaid days because money is really tight now that we are on one income. We couldn't handle the loss of income + the gas + extras that would come along with the trip.
Assuming we left on a Friday when he got out of work, it would mean driving 6 hours with an infant that doesn't do well in the car for more than 45 minutes. The trip would probably take 7+ hours to only be there Saturday and have to leave Sunday morning at 9am check out. Frankly, that is not a justifiable expense for us right now.
In the beginning, he told her money was tight, but he would check in with HR to see exactly how many days he had left of vacation. He did, and it was the number he thought. Next time he spoke to her, he told her we wouldn't be able to make it. Now, every time he speaks to her, she goes on and on about the vacation. It is like she never heard him say we can't come. She even got his Dad on the phone to itemize every single day he has taken off this year (you could hear him say to her in the back ground "No, it's right Alice, he took x days off for the baby & that emergency ER visit").
My husband gets off the phone feeling pretty crappy. He knows how excited she is to have all her children and new grandbabies together and is sad that he has to disappoint her. He wants her to understand that while it would be fun, we just can't swing it. When she keeps going on about it, it also makes him feel like a bad provider to his family (us) because we can't justify the cost this vacation given the length of time we would be there. Like I said, we can't afford unpaid days off + the cost of the gas/ extras.
What can we say to her to help her understand. He has tried using this Dad as a voice of reason, but the next time he speaks with his Mom, she just keeps bringing it up. I assume she thinks he is lying, but I don't think she realizes how little he makes (of course he deserves way more given how hard he works and how long he has been with the company, but who isn't in that boat these days).
So, magical phrase ideas?
A couple of months ago they told us they had rented a place on the beach for a week this summer. It is Sunday-Sunday with a check in/out at 9am. He has 4 (out of 14) vacation days left this year that we are saving for Christmas to be able to make the rounds with our families (mine are about 2.5 hours away his are about 5.5 hours away in opposite directions). We had a baby this year, so he used the majority of his time off for that. We would love to be able to take a vacation. Heck, a free place on the beach with a built in baby sitter? Yes please! However, he is not going to magically get any more paid days off. We can not afford to take any unpaid days because money is really tight now that we are on one income. We couldn't handle the loss of income + the gas + extras that would come along with the trip.
Assuming we left on a Friday when he got out of work, it would mean driving 6 hours with an infant that doesn't do well in the car for more than 45 minutes. The trip would probably take 7+ hours to only be there Saturday and have to leave Sunday morning at 9am check out. Frankly, that is not a justifiable expense for us right now.
In the beginning, he told her money was tight, but he would check in with HR to see exactly how many days he had left of vacation. He did, and it was the number he thought. Next time he spoke to her, he told her we wouldn't be able to make it. Now, every time he speaks to her, she goes on and on about the vacation. It is like she never heard him say we can't come. She even got his Dad on the phone to itemize every single day he has taken off this year (you could hear him say to her in the back ground "No, it's right Alice, he took x days off for the baby & that emergency ER visit").
My husband gets off the phone feeling pretty crappy. He knows how excited she is to have all her children and new grandbabies together and is sad that he has to disappoint her. He wants her to understand that while it would be fun, we just can't swing it. When she keeps going on about it, it also makes him feel like a bad provider to his family (us) because we can't justify the cost this vacation given the length of time we would be there. Like I said, we can't afford unpaid days off + the cost of the gas/ extras.
What can we say to her to help her understand. He has tried using this Dad as a voice of reason, but the next time he speaks with his Mom, she just keeps bringing it up. I assume she thinks he is lying, but I don't think she realizes how little he makes (of course he deserves way more given how hard he works and how long he has been with the company, but who isn't in that boat these days).
So, magical phrase ideas?
"I'm sorry, it just won't be possible this year."
And repeat ad nauseum.
Or go big, "Mom, we categorically cannot afford to join you on this trip, and you are badgering us to the point that we are becoming more and more distressed and upset any time we talk to you. We love you. The answer is still no. Please stop asking or we will have to cut off contact with you for a while."
Good luck.
posted by These Birds of a Feather at 7:10 AM on June 3, 2013 [34 favorites]
And repeat ad nauseum.
Or go big, "Mom, we categorically cannot afford to join you on this trip, and you are badgering us to the point that we are becoming more and more distressed and upset any time we talk to you. We love you. The answer is still no. Please stop asking or we will have to cut off contact with you for a while."
Good luck.
posted by These Birds of a Feather at 7:10 AM on June 3, 2013 [34 favorites]
Mom. I am so sorry. I know you're disappointed but there is no way we will be there. We'll see you at Christmas.
posted by Sophie1 at 7:11 AM on June 3, 2013 [12 favorites]
posted by Sophie1 at 7:11 AM on June 3, 2013 [12 favorites]
"Mom, we've been over this. We're not coming this year. I know you'd like it to be different, but we're adults over here and we made our own decision. No, we're not coming, so let's move the conversation along so it doesn't become unpleasant. [Change subject.] "
posted by ThatCanadianGirl at 7:12 AM on June 3, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by ThatCanadianGirl at 7:12 AM on June 3, 2013 [1 favorite]
Also, the next time you get on the phone with her and she ignores your protests, say, "We are unable to go. I need to get off the phone. Love you! Bye." And hang up on her. Do it over and over even if she calls you back. She's being outrageously rude and unloving to you right now and boundaries need to be set.
posted by These Birds of a Feather at 7:12 AM on June 3, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by These Birds of a Feather at 7:12 AM on June 3, 2013 [1 favorite]
"I'm sorry, it just won't be possible this year."
And repeat ad nauseum.
I don't see why this has to be repeated. Y'all can't go, have clearly stated so and have good reasons for not being able to. At some point during that vacation week, when y'all aren't there, they'll get the picture that you're not coming. How they deal with that is up to them.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:12 AM on June 3, 2013 [11 favorites]
And repeat ad nauseum.
I don't see why this has to be repeated. Y'all can't go, have clearly stated so and have good reasons for not being able to. At some point during that vacation week, when y'all aren't there, they'll get the picture that you're not coming. How they deal with that is up to them.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:12 AM on June 3, 2013 [11 favorites]
Your husband needs to stand up to his mother and her Hallmark card fantasy. Let him know that you have his back, but tell him his "bad son" idea is a sign of a cord not fully cut. Independent adults don't need to feel guilty about this family crap.
posted by BostonTerrier at 7:13 AM on June 3, 2013 [5 favorites]
posted by BostonTerrier at 7:13 AM on June 3, 2013 [5 favorites]
There is no magic word that makes her suddenly start listening.
You need to start the conversation with a reminder that you won't be there (as they've said, not an explanation, a reminder).
A major part of your goal here isn't necessarily for his mother to understand, it's to let your husband have a phone conversation with them without feeling crappy about everything.
Maybe if your husband did his best to cut her off as soon as she started talking about it? She mentions something and he says, "Oh, yeah!" as if he'd half forgotten that it was any of his business where his mother spent her vacation. So she says how they think they'll do a clambake on Thursday night, and he says, "Oh, the beach, right, that sounds nice, I sure hope you guys have fun. If you do it again another year, we'll try to be there." "Oh, the beach, right, Brother was saying how much he's looking forward to it, I sure hope you guys have fun." "Oh, hey, yeah, I hope you like the beach house, you'll have to tell us all about it when you get home."
Also, how is he at changing the subject? You've got a baby, surely the baby has done something remarkable (at least from grandmother's point of view) since last time they talked?
posted by aimedwander at 7:14 AM on June 3, 2013 [1 favorite]
You need to start the conversation with a reminder that you won't be there (as they've said, not an explanation, a reminder).
A major part of your goal here isn't necessarily for his mother to understand, it's to let your husband have a phone conversation with them without feeling crappy about everything.
Maybe if your husband did his best to cut her off as soon as she started talking about it? She mentions something and he says, "Oh, yeah!" as if he'd half forgotten that it was any of his business where his mother spent her vacation. So she says how they think they'll do a clambake on Thursday night, and he says, "Oh, the beach, right, that sounds nice, I sure hope you guys have fun. If you do it again another year, we'll try to be there." "Oh, the beach, right, Brother was saying how much he's looking forward to it, I sure hope you guys have fun." "Oh, hey, yeah, I hope you like the beach house, you'll have to tell us all about it when you get home."
Also, how is he at changing the subject? You've got a baby, surely the baby has done something remarkable (at least from grandmother's point of view) since last time they talked?
posted by aimedwander at 7:14 AM on June 3, 2013 [1 favorite]
There is no magical phrase. She gets it, she just thinks she can break him down.
Would it be possible if they helped you with the cost? What if it was just you and the baby, and your husband stayed behind?
If none of those things are possible and it's really a no-go, I would tell him to change the subject when she brings it up. If she won't change the subject, something like "OK Mom we've had this conversation already, so if there's nothing else to discuss, talk to you next time, love you." Or arrange it so that he's too busy to talk until after the rental is over.
posted by bleep at 7:15 AM on June 3, 2013
Would it be possible if they helped you with the cost? What if it was just you and the baby, and your husband stayed behind?
If none of those things are possible and it's really a no-go, I would tell him to change the subject when she brings it up. If she won't change the subject, something like "OK Mom we've had this conversation already, so if there's nothing else to discuss, talk to you next time, love you." Or arrange it so that he's too busy to talk until after the rental is over.
posted by bleep at 7:15 AM on June 3, 2013
Broken record technique, each time she talks about him coming he needs to say something like:
"I can't take a vacation"
"I won't be there"
"I'm so sad I won't be there"
Worst case, I guess she will figure it out if he isn't there. Sounds like she was going to rent the place even if he couldn't make it, so no need to feel too bad about it.
We would love to be able to take a vacation. Heck, a free place on the beach with a built in baby sitter? Yes please!
No reason you can't go. You get a vacation, free place on the beach, baby sitter, grandma gets to see the baby, husband gets to feel like a good provider.
If you would have trouble driving the whole way yourself, see if you can take a friend along, or take public transit.
You might be able to do this instead of driving so far at Christmas, as well.
posted by yohko at 7:16 AM on June 3, 2013 [7 favorites]
"I can't take a vacation"
"I won't be there"
"I'm so sad I won't be there"
Worst case, I guess she will figure it out if he isn't there. Sounds like she was going to rent the place even if he couldn't make it, so no need to feel too bad about it.
We would love to be able to take a vacation. Heck, a free place on the beach with a built in baby sitter? Yes please!
No reason you can't go. You get a vacation, free place on the beach, baby sitter, grandma gets to see the baby, husband gets to feel like a good provider.
If you would have trouble driving the whole way yourself, see if you can take a friend along, or take public transit.
You might be able to do this instead of driving so far at Christmas, as well.
posted by yohko at 7:16 AM on June 3, 2013 [7 favorites]
Tell the rude mother how much the lost wages would be.
posted by seanmpuckett at 7:18 AM on June 3, 2013 [8 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 7:18 AM on June 3, 2013 [8 favorites]
Just stop engaging with her on the issue. If she brings it up, that’s the end of the conversation. Politely tell mother you need to get off the phone now.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:19 AM on June 3, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:19 AM on June 3, 2013 [1 favorite]
If you keep giving excuses, she'll keep trying to fix those excuses. If the problem is that your husband cannot take the time off and you cannot afford the gas, then eventually your MIL will suggest that you come yourself for a week and she'll cover the gas, or they'll give you cash to cover your husband's missing salary (assuming they can afford these things). Do these solutions appeal to you? Then you can make it very explicit -- we can't afford the gas money and we can't afford the week's lost wages. Otherwise, stop explaining why you cannot go and end the conversations when it comes up.
posted by jeather at 7:20 AM on June 3, 2013 [15 favorites]
posted by jeather at 7:20 AM on June 3, 2013 [15 favorites]
"It's this or Christmas, and I want to see you at Christmas. Bye!"
posted by headspace at 7:37 AM on June 3, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by headspace at 7:37 AM on June 3, 2013 [3 favorites]
Frankly, I'd be annoyed by this at this point.
"Look, I realize it isn't your intention to make me feel bad about this. I understand that you want to have a family vacation, and I want that too. But right now it just isn't possible, and rehashing this subject over and over again is only making me upset because it is a reminder that we can't have what we want right now. Can we please not talk about this again?"
posted by jph at 7:38 AM on June 3, 2013 [7 favorites]
"Look, I realize it isn't your intention to make me feel bad about this. I understand that you want to have a family vacation, and I want that too. But right now it just isn't possible, and rehashing this subject over and over again is only making me upset because it is a reminder that we can't have what we want right now. Can we please not talk about this again?"
posted by jph at 7:38 AM on June 3, 2013 [7 favorites]
I really hate when people make plans and then expect you to be on board, despite what your personal circumstances may be!
To that end, can I suggest a slightly different tactic – how about asking your MIL to cover the expenses if you go? If your husband were to take a couple unpaid days off, would she be able to cover the foregone pay? Maybe you need to be THAT explicit to get her to understand. And if she really wants you all there, she can put her money where her mouth is. The way I’ve phrased this, it may sound boorish, but I am actually being serious. There are people who can afford such things and would gladly pay if that’s what it would take to have you there. Since you really do want to go, and if they can afford to help you, it would be a win-win for everyone.
posted by yawper at 7:38 AM on June 3, 2013 [31 favorites]
To that end, can I suggest a slightly different tactic – how about asking your MIL to cover the expenses if you go? If your husband were to take a couple unpaid days off, would she be able to cover the foregone pay? Maybe you need to be THAT explicit to get her to understand. And if she really wants you all there, she can put her money where her mouth is. The way I’ve phrased this, it may sound boorish, but I am actually being serious. There are people who can afford such things and would gladly pay if that’s what it would take to have you there. Since you really do want to go, and if they can afford to help you, it would be a win-win for everyone.
posted by yawper at 7:38 AM on June 3, 2013 [31 favorites]
"We already talked about this."
posted by mskyle at 7:43 AM on June 3, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by mskyle at 7:43 AM on June 3, 2013 [3 favorites]
"Sounds good! See you there!"
Then when they're expecting you:
"Oh, sorry! We realized we don't have any vacation time left. Next time!"
posted by xingcat at 7:58 AM on June 3, 2013
Then when they're expecting you:
"Oh, sorry! We realized we don't have any vacation time left. Next time!"
posted by xingcat at 7:58 AM on June 3, 2013
If it's very important to her, why not give her the opportunity to make it happen by asking her to pay for it? If she has the money, it would seem she would be glad to do it since time with family is precious and invaluable.
posted by Dansaman at 8:02 AM on June 3, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by Dansaman at 8:02 AM on June 3, 2013 [1 favorite]
Send an email or handwritten note with your regrets, then stop excusing and explaining and simply don't go.
She might forget what is said in a phone call, but having it written out is more concrete.
posted by sageleaf at 8:08 AM on June 3, 2013 [1 favorite]
She might forget what is said in a phone call, but having it written out is more concrete.
posted by sageleaf at 8:08 AM on June 3, 2013 [1 favorite]
If you really do want to go and it really is just the money holding you back, tell her what you need to make it happen (including lost salary, gas, etc.). Say, "We'd really love to come, but can't make it financially. If you can give us $XXX, we'll be there."
Then, if she keeps asking without sending the money, remind her that it's a prerequisite for the visit.
posted by Betelgeuse at 8:18 AM on June 3, 2013
Then, if she keeps asking without sending the money, remind her that it's a prerequisite for the visit.
posted by Betelgeuse at 8:18 AM on June 3, 2013
Is she forgetting or is she living in a fantasy where you're coming along? Is she trying to passive-aggressive you into getting her way or just refusing to believe you have valid reasons for not coming along? I think how you should respond varies a little bit based on her motivation.
If it's one of the first two, I think everyone is best served by you being kind and gently reminding her that you can't be there, as much as you'd like to, and then re-directing the conversation to either your Christmas plans to see her or the latest baby story.
If it's the latter, you have to be more blunt in shutting her down. If she's trying to guilt you into getting her way, you have to refuse to engage "We won't be there and I'm hanging up now because I'm not going to explain to you again." If she's convinced you've lied about why you won't be there and if she can just get to the root of why you "really" won't be there, you'll come, you probably have to do the same: "We have explained why we can't be there; none of that is changed, so let's talk about something else."
If she's fishing for a way to offer to make it happen, and it's actually possible to make it happen, you could tell her "Mom, it will only happen if you do X, Y, & Z" but that would make me very uncomfortable, personally.
posted by crush-onastick at 8:22 AM on June 3, 2013 [1 favorite]
If it's one of the first two, I think everyone is best served by you being kind and gently reminding her that you can't be there, as much as you'd like to, and then re-directing the conversation to either your Christmas plans to see her or the latest baby story.
If it's the latter, you have to be more blunt in shutting her down. If she's trying to guilt you into getting her way, you have to refuse to engage "We won't be there and I'm hanging up now because I'm not going to explain to you again." If she's convinced you've lied about why you won't be there and if she can just get to the root of why you "really" won't be there, you'll come, you probably have to do the same: "We have explained why we can't be there; none of that is changed, so let's talk about something else."
If she's fishing for a way to offer to make it happen, and it's actually possible to make it happen, you could tell her "Mom, it will only happen if you do X, Y, & Z" but that would make me very uncomfortable, personally.
posted by crush-onastick at 8:22 AM on June 3, 2013 [1 favorite]
Does she think maybe you will come alone with your kid while your husband stays home to continue working? Do you want to consider that? Built-in babysitter, like you said...
posted by rabidsegue at 8:35 AM on June 3, 2013
posted by rabidsegue at 8:35 AM on June 3, 2013
"We'd love to be there, but we can't afford to take time off if we want to see you at Christmas." Hopefully Christmas is a big enough thing that she will prefer to see you all then. You may or may not want to bring up that your baby will be older by Christmas, and more fun to see/be around, because grandparents can get a bit baby crazy.
But at some point, you just have to say, "I'm sorry, we won't be there, and we're not going to discuss this anymore."
posted by filthy light thief at 8:43 AM on June 3, 2013
But at some point, you just have to say, "I'm sorry, we won't be there, and we're not going to discuss this anymore."
posted by filthy light thief at 8:43 AM on June 3, 2013
To that end, can I suggest a slightly different tactic – how about asking your MIL to cover the expenses if you go?
No no no no no. At this point she must be denied a victory no matter what, or you're going to keep hearing shit like this for the rest of her life. You need to win, burn down her mental Carthage, and plow salt into its earth. I don't care if you win the damn lottery, do not go to that beach house.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 8:43 AM on June 3, 2013 [50 favorites]
No no no no no. At this point she must be denied a victory no matter what, or you're going to keep hearing shit like this for the rest of her life. You need to win, burn down her mental Carthage, and plow salt into its earth. I don't care if you win the damn lottery, do not go to that beach house.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 8:43 AM on June 3, 2013 [50 favorites]
She even got his Dad on the phone to itemize every single day he has taken off this year (you could hear him say to her in the back ground "No, it's right Alice, he took x days off for the baby & that emergency ER visit").
There seems a bigger issue here where you husband cannot stand up to his mother. I would suggest you stay out of it entirely. Your husband has to learn to handle his mother. A grown man should not have to account for his days off to his mother, and he absolutely should not have allowed the above exchange to happen.
There is no magical phrase. All you can do is repeat firmly that you will not be going as you cannot take the time off. Every single she tries to argue with needs to be meet with increasingly blunt versions of "No, we can't take the time".
And ROU_Xenophobe is absolutely right. Do not look for creative solutions to give in to her. Any sort of attempt to accommodate her should go out the window once she started treating you like children. Your husband has to make her take no for an answer, or this problem will never end.
posted by spaltavian at 8:57 AM on June 3, 2013 [12 favorites]
There seems a bigger issue here where you husband cannot stand up to his mother. I would suggest you stay out of it entirely. Your husband has to learn to handle his mother. A grown man should not have to account for his days off to his mother, and he absolutely should not have allowed the above exchange to happen.
There is no magical phrase. All you can do is repeat firmly that you will not be going as you cannot take the time off. Every single she tries to argue with needs to be meet with increasingly blunt versions of "No, we can't take the time".
And ROU_Xenophobe is absolutely right. Do not look for creative solutions to give in to her. Any sort of attempt to accommodate her should go out the window once she started treating you like children. Your husband has to make her take no for an answer, or this problem will never end.
posted by spaltavian at 8:57 AM on June 3, 2013 [12 favorites]
So, in my experience, no one likes hurting someone else's feelings. Can you or your husband say something to her like "We want to come, but we can't, and when you bring it up it makes us feel bad. I know that we would all prefer it if we were there, but it's sadly impossible this year. Bringing it up makes us sad, because it is something we want to do but just can't. I know you feel the same way, and that your heart is in the right place, but hearing about the vacation makes me feel crummy, which I know is not your intention at all. Can we talk about something else?"
That has been effective for me in situations where people want to talk about things that I really can't discuss.
posted by k8lin at 8:57 AM on June 3, 2013 [5 favorites]
That has been effective for me in situations where people want to talk about things that I really can't discuss.
posted by k8lin at 8:57 AM on June 3, 2013 [5 favorites]
I think this depends partly on the wider state of your family's relationship with MIL. If she's generally a dominant, boundary-pushing, won't-take-no-for-an-answer kind of person, and you're interested in defending this as your family's decisionmaking territory, then you're getting great advice above re: addressing this with a firm, polite "no" followed by disengagement.
IF, however this is not a proxy battle for a larger war over boundaries, but simply a case where she seems curiously unable to grasp the logistical issues y'all are facing, then there's something to be said for just presenting your issues and giving her the option of handling them, as various others have suggested. As a problem-solving type myself, it drives me crazy when people jump right to the final verdict of a decision I'm invested in, especially when I feel as though there might have been other solutions I could have facilitated earlier in the process-- could your MIL's obsession with reviewing the details be stemming from a similar desire to help come up with some solution, any solution?
If so, then instead of jumping to the WE JUST CAN'T GO point, why not have a discussion with your husband about the conditions that'd be necessary to allow you to go on this vacation ("1. We'd need $XXX to cover lost pay, 2. We'd need someone to take the baby in their car for Y hours of the trip to save our sanity," etc.), and present this to your MIL as a situation where you'd love to go, but you don't think those conditions can be met? That'd give her the option of putting up or shutting up, basically-- either she makes this doable for you, or it doesn't get done, and it should be pretty clear that it's not your fault either way.
posted by Bardolph at 9:03 AM on June 3, 2013 [2 favorites]
IF, however this is not a proxy battle for a larger war over boundaries, but simply a case where she seems curiously unable to grasp the logistical issues y'all are facing, then there's something to be said for just presenting your issues and giving her the option of handling them, as various others have suggested. As a problem-solving type myself, it drives me crazy when people jump right to the final verdict of a decision I'm invested in, especially when I feel as though there might have been other solutions I could have facilitated earlier in the process-- could your MIL's obsession with reviewing the details be stemming from a similar desire to help come up with some solution, any solution?
If so, then instead of jumping to the WE JUST CAN'T GO point, why not have a discussion with your husband about the conditions that'd be necessary to allow you to go on this vacation ("1. We'd need $XXX to cover lost pay, 2. We'd need someone to take the baby in their car for Y hours of the trip to save our sanity," etc.), and present this to your MIL as a situation where you'd love to go, but you don't think those conditions can be met? That'd give her the option of putting up or shutting up, basically-- either she makes this doable for you, or it doesn't get done, and it should be pretty clear that it's not your fault either way.
posted by Bardolph at 9:03 AM on June 3, 2013 [2 favorites]
Mod note: This is a followup from the asker.
Thank you to all the responses so far. It really looks like he make have to go the change the subject or hang up route.posted by cortex (staff) at 9:18 AM on June 3, 2013 [4 favorites]
A couple of add ons: He has not gone in to as much detail as I did in the post. He has only said that money is tight and that he has no more vacation days left. I would not be comfortable going alone. We would absolutely not allow them to pay for us to go even if they could afford it (which they can't).
This may be a bigger boundary/ control issue as some of you have suggested. When we had our baby (via c-section) my husband let my and his parents know that we would want a few hours after the birth to bond and allow me to rest and recover, just the three of us. We told them all to hang at the hotel until we called to say we were ready for visitors. My parents did. His Mom, however, said she was coming straight to the hospital. When he repeatedly told her not to, they did it anyway. We just left them in the waiting room and tried to pretend they weren't there. It was an annoying background distraction when we were trying to bond (and I was trying not to throw up from all the meds & learn to breast feed) only to have the nurses say she was driving them crazy asking when she could come in despite being told we were recovering and asked not to be disturbed. My husband brought it up later how much it bothered him that she didn't respect our wishes, she started crying, said he was being mean, got off the phone and didn't speak to him for 2 weeks. There are other events too, but that is a good example.
All that being said, there really is no way for us to make this vacation to work, so we need her to stop asking/ badgering.
Not to be flippant, but these honestly sound like the magic words you were looking for:
"There really is no way for us to make this vacation work, so we need you to stop asking/badgering."
This is not a person who respects healthy boundaries, so polite tiptoing isn't going to cut it. I strongly agree with everybody who said your husband needs to step up quickly or you can look forward to a future full of badgering. Best of luck to you.
posted by Space Kitty at 10:04 AM on June 3, 2013 [12 favorites]
"There really is no way for us to make this vacation work, so we need you to stop asking/badgering."
This is not a person who respects healthy boundaries, so polite tiptoing isn't going to cut it. I strongly agree with everybody who said your husband needs to step up quickly or you can look forward to a future full of badgering. Best of luck to you.
posted by Space Kitty at 10:04 AM on June 3, 2013 [12 favorites]
In light of the background info in the followup, I would definitely go hard line. It'll have to be your husband dealing with it, and if I were him I would say something along the lines of "I've told you that we can't go and it makes me feel shitty whenever you bring it up and remind me that we can't. If you do it again I'm going to end the conversation." Then he has to STICK WITH IT. Which sucks, but it's the only want to deal with folks like this. Draw your boundary and do not allow the slightest amount of overstepping.
posted by brilliantine at 10:16 AM on June 3, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by brilliantine at 10:16 AM on June 3, 2013 [1 favorite]
I've dealt with relatives who simply appear not to have heard you when you ask them to drop a subject or explain that a certain topic is off the table/not possible. Especially with your follow-up, the only real thing to do is say, "Mom. We cannot go to the beach house. Please stop asking. If you bring it up again, the conversation is over." Do this every single time. She may get the point, or she may not, but either way, you don't have to talk to her about it anymore.
posted by linettasky at 10:22 AM on June 3, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by linettasky at 10:22 AM on June 3, 2013 [2 favorites]
Given the background info, your husband needs to say either "There is really no way for us to make this vacation work, so we need you to stop asking" or "We want to come, but we can't, and when you bring it up it makes us feel bad. I know that we would all prefer it if we were there, but it's sadly impossible this year. Bringing it up makes us sad, because it is something we want to do but just can't. I know you feel the same way, and that your heart is in the right place, but hearing about the vacation makes me feel crummy, which I know is not your intention at all. Can we talk about something else?" (the exact choice will depend on his preferences) and then end the conversations if she tries to keep bringing up how much she wants you to come or how you must have miscounted your days off or whatever.
I don't think he should go into all the detail that you went into, because those are problems for your MIL to solve, and not him just saying no.
posted by jeather at 10:23 AM on June 3, 2013
I don't think he should go into all the detail that you went into, because those are problems for your MIL to solve, and not him just saying no.
posted by jeather at 10:23 AM on June 3, 2013
I suggest screening your phone calls and not talking to this oblivious momster until she gives up her impossible dream. Let her leave a message. Return her call when you feel up to facing the guilt trip. You might even tell her why you are screening her calls. Will she be offended? Of course. But has polite conversation gotten through to her?
posted by Cranberry at 10:34 AM on June 3, 2013 [4 favorites]
posted by Cranberry at 10:34 AM on June 3, 2013 [4 favorites]
"I'm sorry, mom, it just won't be possible this year. And every time you bring it up, you make me feel terrible about something that I can't do anything about. So please drop it." If she doesn't, then "I have to go" whenever she brings it up, and then go, because if asking her outright to stop doesn't work, then nothing will.
posted by davejay at 10:34 AM on June 3, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by davejay at 10:34 AM on June 3, 2013 [1 favorite]
I can't go for that, oh no, no can do. Just Kidding.
Is this your first kid? If so, maybe you should establish a boundary ahead of time by saying something like, "I hope you enjoy your vacation! husband and I are looking forward to our own little family's time together in the coming summers!"
posted by WeekendJen at 10:52 AM on June 3, 2013
Is this your first kid? If so, maybe you should establish a boundary ahead of time by saying something like, "I hope you enjoy your vacation! husband and I are looking forward to our own little family's time together in the coming summers!"
posted by WeekendJen at 10:52 AM on June 3, 2013
Say No with more empathy. Mom, we are so sorry we can't be there / we wish we could go on this vacation / we're really sorry we're going to miss it / take lots of pictures for us, I hate to miss a great family vacation / We know how much you wish we could be there, etc. You can keep repeating those without hurting Mom's feelings or sounding harsh. If she still ignores it, he can say Mom, you do know we aren't going to be there, right?
posted by theora55 at 11:19 AM on June 3, 2013
posted by theora55 at 11:19 AM on June 3, 2013
In light of your update OP, I would be telling her "We are not having this discussion. If you insist on talking about this to somebody, I suggest you go stand in front of a mirror."
This woman obviously has no concept of boundaries and appropriate behavior, so a curt response is totally warranted.
posted by futureisunwritten at 11:35 AM on June 3, 2013 [3 favorites]
This woman obviously has no concept of boundaries and appropriate behavior, so a curt response is totally warranted.
posted by futureisunwritten at 11:35 AM on June 3, 2013 [3 favorites]
"Mom, we're not having this conversation again. Call me back when you want to talk about something else. Okay then, bye for now. Hugs to Dad!"
posted by ThatCanadianGirl at 12:27 PM on June 3, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by ThatCanadianGirl at 12:27 PM on June 3, 2013 [1 favorite]
This isn't about the vacation, it's about the boundaries. I wouldn't offer excuses, or reasons, simply, "We've already said we're not coming. So, how 'bout them Giants?"
If she speaks to you. Repeat and redirect. If she speaks to your husband, ditto. This is good practice for when your baby is a toddler.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 12:29 PM on June 3, 2013 [1 favorite]
If she speaks to you. Repeat and redirect. If she speaks to your husband, ditto. This is good practice for when your baby is a toddler.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 12:29 PM on June 3, 2013 [1 favorite]
The boundary you want to enforce: you're not going to talk about it anymore. You can't make her accept it or stop asking about it. Practice before the next phone call; come up with kind ways to say that you're done discussing it.
Mom, I know you're disappointed. We can't make it. Please, let's not discuss it any more.
Spouse and I have made our decision. We're disappointed too, but we won't be changing our minds.
Let's talk about something else. (Be ready with a new subject.)
As I said, unfortunately we can't join you. I don't have anything to say beyond that. I'm sorry.
Oops -- that topic is off limits! How was your visit with _______?
That whole deal with your father-in-law counting up the vacation days -- that sort of thing never has to happen. It's difficult to set limits where parents are concerned, but it gets easier. The fact is that you and your husband are entitled to make your own decisions and not have to get family members to agree with you. I know it doesn't feel like you can do that easily. My husband and I felt extremely anxious and conflicted when we were learning to say no to our respective parents.
posted by wryly at 1:14 PM on June 3, 2013
Mom, I know you're disappointed. We can't make it. Please, let's not discuss it any more.
Spouse and I have made our decision. We're disappointed too, but we won't be changing our minds.
Let's talk about something else. (Be ready with a new subject.)
As I said, unfortunately we can't join you. I don't have anything to say beyond that. I'm sorry.
Oops -- that topic is off limits! How was your visit with _______?
That whole deal with your father-in-law counting up the vacation days -- that sort of thing never has to happen. It's difficult to set limits where parents are concerned, but it gets easier. The fact is that you and your husband are entitled to make your own decisions and not have to get family members to agree with you. I know it doesn't feel like you can do that easily. My husband and I felt extremely anxious and conflicted when we were learning to say no to our respective parents.
posted by wryly at 1:14 PM on June 3, 2013
Yeah, given your response, I would just stop talking with her about this. It's none of her business.
posted by 3491again at 1:39 PM on June 3, 2013
posted by 3491again at 1:39 PM on June 3, 2013
Yeah, just get off the phone when she's being an asshole. My boyfriend's mom throws tantrums about how "m-m-m-meannn!" he is for doing normal, adult things, and our strategy is to let her stew in her tantrum alone, 500 miles away, letting her be the victim of her own behavior (instead of him). As in grow up, mom, or suffer the consequences.
Your husband hasssss to do something about this, though, I mean what is that hospital bullshit. If she were alone in the world it would be one thing, but she's still married-- and can you imagine what it would be like if she were widowed BEFORE your husband deals with this??
posted by stoneandstar at 2:08 PM on June 3, 2013 [1 favorite]
Your husband hasssss to do something about this, though, I mean what is that hospital bullshit. If she were alone in the world it would be one thing, but she's still married-- and can you imagine what it would be like if she were widowed BEFORE your husband deals with this??
posted by stoneandstar at 2:08 PM on June 3, 2013 [1 favorite]
The best way to start cutting parents off when they act like jerks is to acknowlege how much it's hurting your new family. When your mom-in-law showed up to the hospital, she was barging in on your fragile, new family bonding time like a bull in a china shop. When she insists on this vacation, she doesn't care that you and your husband will lose valuable income that you need to raise your child. The more he indulges his mother like a little girl, the less time and energy he has for you and his daughter. I'm sure he knows this, but it helps A LOT to remember it in the moment of enforcing boundaries.
posted by stoneandstar at 2:10 PM on June 3, 2013 [4 favorites]
posted by stoneandstar at 2:10 PM on June 3, 2013 [4 favorites]
Your MIL is being intrusive. It's inappropriate.
Hubby can shut it down or you can.
That may have consequences.
Some of those include hurt feelings, hard feelings, future problems.
Learning to manage people is sometimes trial and error. You do the best you can and see what happens. It's hard being hard, but that's adulthood. By the time you reproduce, this is supposed to be a life skill you have a handle on.
You know how it's really difficult to do all the things that baby needs? You just do it, right?
Everyone here will tell you how THEY would solve the problem. It is entirely up to you where you set the bar for inappropriate behaviour and how good you are at dealing with it.
Your baby. Your MIL. Your hubby. Your life.
Make it the way you want it or you are doomed to live it the way other people want you to. That's called being a child, not an adult.
Man up/woman up. It's your turn in the big chair now.
You can do this. (If it helps at all, part of her insistence is born of want and love, and part of selfishness. If you can figure out how to deal with it with an adult, it might come in handy with Junior.) You had a baby. Do you know how unbelievably powerful you are? Rock on and good luck. Just be firm and know what you can do, what you want to do, and what you are going to do and live with that. Whatever it takes.
posted by FauxScot at 2:51 PM on June 3, 2013 [2 favorites]
Hubby can shut it down or you can.
That may have consequences.
Some of those include hurt feelings, hard feelings, future problems.
Learning to manage people is sometimes trial and error. You do the best you can and see what happens. It's hard being hard, but that's adulthood. By the time you reproduce, this is supposed to be a life skill you have a handle on.
You know how it's really difficult to do all the things that baby needs? You just do it, right?
Everyone here will tell you how THEY would solve the problem. It is entirely up to you where you set the bar for inappropriate behaviour and how good you are at dealing with it.
Your baby. Your MIL. Your hubby. Your life.
Make it the way you want it or you are doomed to live it the way other people want you to. That's called being a child, not an adult.
Man up/woman up. It's your turn in the big chair now.
You can do this. (If it helps at all, part of her insistence is born of want and love, and part of selfishness. If you can figure out how to deal with it with an adult, it might come in handy with Junior.) You had a baby. Do you know how unbelievably powerful you are? Rock on and good luck. Just be firm and know what you can do, what you want to do, and what you are going to do and live with that. Whatever it takes.
posted by FauxScot at 2:51 PM on June 3, 2013 [2 favorites]
To me basicaly it sounds like your problem is money. If they paid your expenses for that week, including travel, then it sounds like you could go. Plus the equivalent of one day of your husband's job. I don't know how to suggest that tactfully, or what their financial situation is, but it sounds like that is what's holding you back. Maybe they would be willing to pitch in?
posted by bquarters at 4:02 PM on June 3, 2013
posted by bquarters at 4:02 PM on June 3, 2013
From the OP's followup:
We would absolutely not allow them to pay for us to go even if they could afford it (which they can't).
posted by bakerina at 4:12 PM on June 3, 2013 [3 favorites]
We would absolutely not allow them to pay for us to go even if they could afford it (which they can't).
posted by bakerina at 4:12 PM on June 3, 2013 [3 favorites]
"As we have explained to you before, we will not be there. This is NOT open for discussion, and if you continue to harp on this subject, I'm going to hang up the phone." And then hang up.
You are both going to have to be really firm with her, because otherwise it sounds like she's going to keep this up forever (but on the bright side, thank goodness for all those miles between you, or she might be barging through your house every day!)
Also, it might make your lives easier if you don't tell your in-laws about your plans for pretty much anything beforehand: letting MIL know in advance what you're planning just gives her license to intrude..... and if there's a Baby #2 in the future? Call her afterwards.
posted by easily confused at 4:34 PM on June 3, 2013 [3 favorites]
You are both going to have to be really firm with her, because otherwise it sounds like she's going to keep this up forever (but on the bright side, thank goodness for all those miles between you, or she might be barging through your house every day!)
Also, it might make your lives easier if you don't tell your in-laws about your plans for pretty much anything beforehand: letting MIL know in advance what you're planning just gives her license to intrude..... and if there's a Baby #2 in the future? Call her afterwards.
posted by easily confused at 4:34 PM on June 3, 2013 [3 favorites]
Mum, i love you, but I've told you we can't go on this holiday, yet you insist. To please you, you'd have me risk losing my job, taking holiday time I don't have, put my livelihood at risk and deprive my family of money as I wouldn't be getting paid for that time off. Do you know how selfish that makes you sound? Not only are we not going on this trip, if you continue to bring it up, making it clear my family's needs aren't a priority to you at all, you can forget about us going on any future holidays either. Now is this conversation over or do I need to hang up?
posted by Jubey at 5:15 PM on June 3, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by Jubey at 5:15 PM on June 3, 2013 [1 favorite]
My dearly departed Okie-from-Muskogee grandmother (really) had the best, simplest, yet hardest to follow life advice I've ever heard: Never complain, never explain, and comparisons are odious.
As someone upthread pointed out, you've kept the door open by explaining.
It takes time and practice, but learning to say no, and making it stick, is a terrific and rewarding life skill.
Among other things, it's a free ticket out of family drama.
posted by Short Attention Sp at 6:08 PM on June 3, 2013 [3 favorites]
As someone upthread pointed out, you've kept the door open by explaining.
It takes time and practice, but learning to say no, and making it stick, is a terrific and rewarding life skill.
Among other things, it's a free ticket out of family drama.
posted by Short Attention Sp at 6:08 PM on June 3, 2013 [3 favorites]
Obviously if she's badgering you then I agree with the million comments above that you need to be firmer than you have been, to the point of curt if necessary.
However I'm not clear if she harps on and on about the vacation because that's all she can think about, not because she's trying to change your mind. Is that a possibility? Such that your response can be something like "you're going to have a wonderful time! Little cousin Sophie sure is going to love that beach! Did you buy her some beach toys?" -- something that assumes that you aren't coming, but that you hope they all enjoy it?
(If not, ignore that whole line of thinking, and start being a LOT clearer about your needs. Your MIL sounds like a pain in the ass, and that c-section story had me seething just reading about it.)
posted by fingersandtoes at 6:10 PM on June 3, 2013 [1 favorite]
However I'm not clear if she harps on and on about the vacation because that's all she can think about, not because she's trying to change your mind. Is that a possibility? Such that your response can be something like "you're going to have a wonderful time! Little cousin Sophie sure is going to love that beach! Did you buy her some beach toys?" -- something that assumes that you aren't coming, but that you hope they all enjoy it?
(If not, ignore that whole line of thinking, and start being a LOT clearer about your needs. Your MIL sounds like a pain in the ass, and that c-section story had me seething just reading about it.)
posted by fingersandtoes at 6:10 PM on June 3, 2013 [1 favorite]
I agree that your husband needs to tell your mom he doesn't want to discuss it anymore, and then to hang up if she can't let go. Repeatedly, if necessary.
Also, although it sounds like mom is a pain in the ass, would you tolerate a visit from them for a long weekend? Like say, "Gosh mom, I'm so sorry I can't get the time off to go out of town, but we'd love it if you and dad came to visit us over 4th of July weekend." If this is tolerable to you, it may help her recognize that you are making the rules, not her.
posted by elizeh at 6:51 PM on June 3, 2013
Also, although it sounds like mom is a pain in the ass, would you tolerate a visit from them for a long weekend? Like say, "Gosh mom, I'm so sorry I can't get the time off to go out of town, but we'd love it if you and dad came to visit us over 4th of July weekend." If this is tolerable to you, it may help her recognize that you are making the rules, not her.
posted by elizeh at 6:51 PM on June 3, 2013
You can't stop her from asking because you can't control her vocal cords. What you can do is disengage entirely every single time she starts up about going on holiday. Hang up, walk away, etc. It sounds like that's the only way she's going to get the message. You might have to tolerate it up until the day they leave for the holiday, but if you disengage then it will likely annoy you less. Whenever she starts in, walk away or hang up or otherwise get yourself away from the situation.
Trying to explain won't work, because your interlocutor can use an explanation to argue with you. Saying that it won't be happening because X just means that they can try to convince you that they know a way around X. If you don't give them anything to work with, they don't have anything to work with. They can fall back on repeated attempts, but that's weak sauce and easily avoided.
In my experiences with people like this, I've found I have to be vigilant even after the situation has been resolved. Sometimes they'll back down more quickly in the future, eventually not bothering at all and sometimes they'll escalate to more advanced methods. This is called an extinction burst and is often seen in cases of stalking and such. The stalker will amplify their intentions and actions in an attempt to get a response. If you give in, even in the slightest fashion, over this issue, you'll be training your mother-in-law that she needs to perform actions A, B and C for Y time to get the desired result.
Miss Manners has a great response for this sort of thing: "I'm afraid that won't be possible". Repeat ad infinitum until the holiday is over.
There isn't a phrase that you can say that will suddenly click in her mind because she doesn't actually care about you. She cares about what she wants (you to go on the holiday). Anything you say about the whys and wherefores is pointless, both to you and to her because she's not remotely interested in your point of view. You could have a fifty slide long powerpoint and one of those plane-pulling-a-banner things and it still wouldn't work. She doesn't care about your opinion on the matter. It's like talking to a cat - it can hear you, but your words mean nothing to it. It's going to go off and do as it pleases no matter how well you explain you want it to stay off the counters. If she cared about your point of view, you wouldn't be asking this question because she'd already know your feelings on the matter and be responding accordingly.
posted by Solomon at 2:12 AM on June 4, 2013
Trying to explain won't work, because your interlocutor can use an explanation to argue with you. Saying that it won't be happening because X just means that they can try to convince you that they know a way around X. If you don't give them anything to work with, they don't have anything to work with. They can fall back on repeated attempts, but that's weak sauce and easily avoided.
In my experiences with people like this, I've found I have to be vigilant even after the situation has been resolved. Sometimes they'll back down more quickly in the future, eventually not bothering at all and sometimes they'll escalate to more advanced methods. This is called an extinction burst and is often seen in cases of stalking and such. The stalker will amplify their intentions and actions in an attempt to get a response. If you give in, even in the slightest fashion, over this issue, you'll be training your mother-in-law that she needs to perform actions A, B and C for Y time to get the desired result.
Miss Manners has a great response for this sort of thing: "I'm afraid that won't be possible". Repeat ad infinitum until the holiday is over.
There isn't a phrase that you can say that will suddenly click in her mind because she doesn't actually care about you. She cares about what she wants (you to go on the holiday). Anything you say about the whys and wherefores is pointless, both to you and to her because she's not remotely interested in your point of view. You could have a fifty slide long powerpoint and one of those plane-pulling-a-banner things and it still wouldn't work. She doesn't care about your opinion on the matter. It's like talking to a cat - it can hear you, but your words mean nothing to it. It's going to go off and do as it pleases no matter how well you explain you want it to stay off the counters. If she cared about your point of view, you wouldn't be asking this question because she'd already know your feelings on the matter and be responding accordingly.
posted by Solomon at 2:12 AM on June 4, 2013
Others have given good scripts above. When setting boundaries with family, I found it useful to practice dry runs with non-involved people (in my case, a therapist, but you could also use a family friend). The un-involved person takes on the role of mom, so you can practice maintaining your boundary.
You: "I'm sorry, we won't be able to make it this year."
Mom: "But X and Y and Z!"
You: "I'm sorry, we won't be able to make it this year."
Mom: "You're a horrible child!"
You: "Probably. Oops! I hear Sophie. Gotta go, Mom!"
I tend to go very simple, to keep the "But, X!" openings to a minimum. "I'm sorry, but that just won't be possible" is great, because there's nothing to argue against. There are no openings. Start establishing boundaries now, because it will only get worse - what happens if you want to stay home for Christmas one year?
posted by RogueTech at 7:47 AM on June 4, 2013
You: "I'm sorry, we won't be able to make it this year."
Mom: "But X and Y and Z!"
You: "I'm sorry, we won't be able to make it this year."
Mom: "You're a horrible child!"
You: "Probably. Oops! I hear Sophie. Gotta go, Mom!"
I tend to go very simple, to keep the "But, X!" openings to a minimum. "I'm sorry, but that just won't be possible" is great, because there's nothing to argue against. There are no openings. Start establishing boundaries now, because it will only get worse - what happens if you want to stay home for Christmas one year?
posted by RogueTech at 7:47 AM on June 4, 2013
My husband brought it up later how much it bothered him that she didn't respect our wishes, she started crying, said he was being mean, got off the phone and didn't speak to him for 2 weeks.
Don't avoid difficult topics due to this manipulation!
It sounds like a similar response from her would be an excellent solution to the problem of her continually asking your husband about this, she can't keep bringing it up if she's decided not to talk to him.
Talking to your parent every two weeks is a perfectly reasonable timeframe for most adults, people are very busy especially with a baby in the house, so there's no need for distress on his part if they end up not talking for two weeks. If she wants to talk more often she'll have to learn to be nice.
posted by yohko at 6:31 PM on June 5, 2013 [2 favorites]
Don't avoid difficult topics due to this manipulation!
It sounds like a similar response from her would be an excellent solution to the problem of her continually asking your husband about this, she can't keep bringing it up if she's decided not to talk to him.
Talking to your parent every two weeks is a perfectly reasonable timeframe for most adults, people are very busy especially with a baby in the house, so there's no need for distress on his part if they end up not talking for two weeks. If she wants to talk more often she'll have to learn to be nice.
posted by yohko at 6:31 PM on June 5, 2013 [2 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by something something at 7:09 AM on June 3, 2013 [13 favorites]