We yell at children at this school?
May 14, 2013 1:08 AM Subscribe
A mother at my son's school yelled at him today. I am furious. I am also very confused about what to do about it.
The mother in question ("Marie") and I were in an after-school meeting together today. She left just before the meeting wrapped up. I heard a commotion outside, thought it sounded like my boy crying loudly, looked out the window and saw Marie yelling at my boy. My boy is five years old.
I ran downstairs to see what was happening. My son was lying on the ground, clutching his head and saying "I have a very bad headache and no one would help me". He was crying quite loudly and was very upset.
Marie was leaving the playground at this time with her five year old boy.
I was comforting my son when he told me that Marie had told him off. He said that she had yelled at him that "No one likes a screaming child" and that he should "just shut the hell up". He said he'd asked her for help. I was completely shocked.
Another child was there in the playground at the time all of this was happening. She came over to me and confirmed what my son had said (if it's helpful, she is about 7 and her quotes of what Marie said matched perfectly with my son's).
My son was extremely upset by what had happened (and upset by his terrible headache) and kept bursting into tears on and off all evening. He also kept telling me that adults shouldn't speak to children like that and that adults are meant to help sick children.
I am furious about what happened. I have no doubt that what my son said happened is true - the other girl's story matched up and what I saw out the window helps to verify it. It's just that I don't know what to do now.
(Slightly) complicating factors include:
1. This is a very small school (about 60 kids aged 5 - 12). I will see her again and on a very regular basis.
2. My son and hers are in the same class and very good friends.
3. My son has been invited to the birthday party of Marie's boy. It's on Sunday.
4. Marie has a very difficult personality. She is extremely negative, combative and takes offense at the slightest thing. She firmly believes that her child is perfect and that all other children are terribly behaved. I also find it difficult to like her because of some things she has shared with me about herself, including the fact that she is currently defrauding our country's welfare system.
Any practical ideas for what my next steps should be, people of Metafilter? I am so cross right now that I can't think straight. The temptation is to yell at her, but I would like to handle this in the most mature way possible and, while it would be deeply satisfying on one level, yelling doesn't seem like a good way to deal with this.
Thanks in advance for your advice.
The mother in question ("Marie") and I were in an after-school meeting together today. She left just before the meeting wrapped up. I heard a commotion outside, thought it sounded like my boy crying loudly, looked out the window and saw Marie yelling at my boy. My boy is five years old.
I ran downstairs to see what was happening. My son was lying on the ground, clutching his head and saying "I have a very bad headache and no one would help me". He was crying quite loudly and was very upset.
Marie was leaving the playground at this time with her five year old boy.
I was comforting my son when he told me that Marie had told him off. He said that she had yelled at him that "No one likes a screaming child" and that he should "just shut the hell up". He said he'd asked her for help. I was completely shocked.
Another child was there in the playground at the time all of this was happening. She came over to me and confirmed what my son had said (if it's helpful, she is about 7 and her quotes of what Marie said matched perfectly with my son's).
My son was extremely upset by what had happened (and upset by his terrible headache) and kept bursting into tears on and off all evening. He also kept telling me that adults shouldn't speak to children like that and that adults are meant to help sick children.
I am furious about what happened. I have no doubt that what my son said happened is true - the other girl's story matched up and what I saw out the window helps to verify it. It's just that I don't know what to do now.
(Slightly) complicating factors include:
1. This is a very small school (about 60 kids aged 5 - 12). I will see her again and on a very regular basis.
2. My son and hers are in the same class and very good friends.
3. My son has been invited to the birthday party of Marie's boy. It's on Sunday.
4. Marie has a very difficult personality. She is extremely negative, combative and takes offense at the slightest thing. She firmly believes that her child is perfect and that all other children are terribly behaved. I also find it difficult to like her because of some things she has shared with me about herself, including the fact that she is currently defrauding our country's welfare system.
Any practical ideas for what my next steps should be, people of Metafilter? I am so cross right now that I can't think straight. The temptation is to yell at her, but I would like to handle this in the most mature way possible and, while it would be deeply satisfying on one level, yelling doesn't seem like a good way to deal with this.
Thanks in advance for your advice.
Marie sounds like she has some kind of mental disorder and is a disturbed person. I do not think direct aggression is the best way to deal with people like that at all. I think you should quietly say something to the head administrator of the school. Say it in a brief, just-the-facts way and do not include anything about your emotions at all. Also mention the other times when she was "combative" if they are significant. Again, very brief and just the facts. Don't bring up the times when she was just negative or offended by something. I think the best tack to take is to steer clear of her as much as possible, but report her behavior when she crosses serious behavioral lines.
I do not think it is very likely that you will be able to change Marie, no matter what you do.
About the birthday party, don't make your son go if he doesn't want to or if you think Marie will scare him again. At the same time, it would be really good for Marie's children to have friends and connections in the community, other adults who know them and could be there for them if need be.
Finally, even though it's such a small incident, you really might want to look into a few sessions of counseling for your boy. This is the sort of thing that could seem really small, but could impact him for a long time and shake his sense of safety.
posted by cairdeas at 1:14 AM on May 14, 2013 [23 favorites]
I do not think it is very likely that you will be able to change Marie, no matter what you do.
About the birthday party, don't make your son go if he doesn't want to or if you think Marie will scare him again. At the same time, it would be really good for Marie's children to have friends and connections in the community, other adults who know them and could be there for them if need be.
Finally, even though it's such a small incident, you really might want to look into a few sessions of counseling for your boy. This is the sort of thing that could seem really small, but could impact him for a long time and shake his sense of safety.
posted by cairdeas at 1:14 AM on May 14, 2013 [23 favorites]
What she did is very inappropriate. Does the school have any written rules about what parents can and cannot do when dropping off and picking up kids? Regardless, I would talk to the school management about it, and possibly the relevant teacher(s) as well. If they don't do anything about it, I would ask her point blank whether she yelled at your kid, and if she says yes, tell her that she'd better not do that again. People will often stop doing things if they know someone is paying attention to what's happening. Is she from another country? If so, you could also educate her about what's appropriate and inappropriate in the country where she is now.
posted by Dansaman at 1:16 AM on May 14, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by Dansaman at 1:16 AM on May 14, 2013 [1 favorite]
Oh, and it goes without saying that if your son goes to the birthday party, you should stay there with him. Marie shouldn't be supervising children by herself.
posted by cairdeas at 1:19 AM on May 14, 2013 [37 favorites]
posted by cairdeas at 1:19 AM on May 14, 2013 [37 favorites]
One more thing. If you decide to talk to the administrators, I think need to keep your personal dislike of Marie 100% absent if you want a decent chance for anything to come of it.
If you reveal any personal disdain for Marie at all, odds are they will start to think, "Oh no, it's RosiePosie and Marie again with their petty fighting, they just need to learn how to get along." Like you will be seen as a participant in behaving badly just as much as she is.
Just be as personally positive or neutral as you can honestly be, while putting the focus on her problematic behavior. For example, "It's always difficult to bring up concerns about another parent, but I've now witnessed three very disturbing incidents, and at this point I felt it would be best for everyone to bring them to your attention."
posted by cairdeas at 1:29 AM on May 14, 2013 [9 favorites]
If you reveal any personal disdain for Marie at all, odds are they will start to think, "Oh no, it's RosiePosie and Marie again with their petty fighting, they just need to learn how to get along." Like you will be seen as a participant in behaving badly just as much as she is.
Just be as personally positive or neutral as you can honestly be, while putting the focus on her problematic behavior. For example, "It's always difficult to bring up concerns about another parent, but I've now witnessed three very disturbing incidents, and at this point I felt it would be best for everyone to bring them to your attention."
posted by cairdeas at 1:29 AM on May 14, 2013 [9 favorites]
1. You need to inform Marie that she does not have permission to act so inappropriately toward your child, and that if she does so again, you will take whatever action necessary to protect him.
2. You need to tell your kid that Marie is the one with the problem, not him, and that life sometimes means we encounter sad, angry, and otherwise dysfunctional people.
3. Yes, definitely inform the school and let them tell you how they would prefer to handle it if it happens again. It may not be something they can do anything about without an adult witness, though.
posted by dhartung at 2:17 AM on May 14, 2013 [25 favorites]
2. You need to tell your kid that Marie is the one with the problem, not him, and that life sometimes means we encounter sad, angry, and otherwise dysfunctional people.
3. Yes, definitely inform the school and let them tell you how they would prefer to handle it if it happens again. It may not be something they can do anything about without an adult witness, though.
posted by dhartung at 2:17 AM on May 14, 2013 [25 favorites]
I am so cross right now that I can't think straight.
I think you should wait until you can think straight again before deciding what to do about Marie.
The temptation is to yell at her, but I would like to handle this in the most mature way possible
The most mature thing possible, it seems to me, is to take a step back and look at the bigger picture.
What happened today was that your son was picked on by an enormous bully. So your first priority needs to be helping him deal with that in a way that minimizes the damage he takes.
My son ... kept telling me that adults shouldn't speak to children like that and that adults are meant to help sick children.
"You are totally right about that. Marie did the wrong thing. She should have tried to help you. She should not have yelled at you. None of the things she yelled at you are true and you don't have to believe them. I don't know why she was so mean to you. Perhaps she's not well."
That's emotional first aid; keep that line going until you reckon he believes you.
If you're careful, you can actually wring a tiny bit of good value out of this whole horrible circumstance by making it perfectly clear to your son that the unacceptable thing was Marie's behavior, not Marie herself. If your son says that Marie is a terrible person, don't instantly agree with him (this will be hard!) but swing the discussion back around to the fact that what she did was wrong.
If you can use this incident to help your son learn to separate the idea of bad behavior from the idea of bad people, he's going to be better placed to take responsibility for his own future bad behavior without shriveling into a little ball of shame; that's valuable.
After you've both calmed down and you're both capable of talking about what happened without getting furious or upset, work together to come up with a plan for handling future encounters with Marie and others who behave similarly. You can't shield your kid from all of life's bullies but you can certainly teach him resilience.
Your son may actually decide that he's willing to take the risk of more aggression from her if it means he can keep being friends with her kid and go to the party this weekend. But in your shoes I would certainly be staying within earshot.
Something else for you to ponder if, as seems somewhat likely, you find yourself in an encounter with Marie where she's having a go at your son again and you need to step in and defend: the way you handle yourself there is going to make a big impression on your son, and the best thing you can teach him is that you don't have to respond to somebody else's screaming ball of fury with your own. Getting in between the two of them to assure his physical safety, then displaying calm, controlled, icy courtesy as you draw her attention to the unacceptable aspects of her behavior is way better. In his mind, you'll come out of that looking like Chuck Norris.
posted by flabdablet at 2:28 AM on May 14, 2013 [93 favorites]
I think you should wait until you can think straight again before deciding what to do about Marie.
The temptation is to yell at her, but I would like to handle this in the most mature way possible
The most mature thing possible, it seems to me, is to take a step back and look at the bigger picture.
What happened today was that your son was picked on by an enormous bully. So your first priority needs to be helping him deal with that in a way that minimizes the damage he takes.
My son ... kept telling me that adults shouldn't speak to children like that and that adults are meant to help sick children.
"You are totally right about that. Marie did the wrong thing. She should have tried to help you. She should not have yelled at you. None of the things she yelled at you are true and you don't have to believe them. I don't know why she was so mean to you. Perhaps she's not well."
That's emotional first aid; keep that line going until you reckon he believes you.
If you're careful, you can actually wring a tiny bit of good value out of this whole horrible circumstance by making it perfectly clear to your son that the unacceptable thing was Marie's behavior, not Marie herself. If your son says that Marie is a terrible person, don't instantly agree with him (this will be hard!) but swing the discussion back around to the fact that what she did was wrong.
If you can use this incident to help your son learn to separate the idea of bad behavior from the idea of bad people, he's going to be better placed to take responsibility for his own future bad behavior without shriveling into a little ball of shame; that's valuable.
After you've both calmed down and you're both capable of talking about what happened without getting furious or upset, work together to come up with a plan for handling future encounters with Marie and others who behave similarly. You can't shield your kid from all of life's bullies but you can certainly teach him resilience.
Your son may actually decide that he's willing to take the risk of more aggression from her if it means he can keep being friends with her kid and go to the party this weekend. But in your shoes I would certainly be staying within earshot.
Something else for you to ponder if, as seems somewhat likely, you find yourself in an encounter with Marie where she's having a go at your son again and you need to step in and defend: the way you handle yourself there is going to make a big impression on your son, and the best thing you can teach him is that you don't have to respond to somebody else's screaming ball of fury with your own. Getting in between the two of them to assure his physical safety, then displaying calm, controlled, icy courtesy as you draw her attention to the unacceptable aspects of her behavior is way better. In his mind, you'll come out of that looking like Chuck Norris.
posted by flabdablet at 2:28 AM on May 14, 2013 [93 favorites]
I have some thoughts:
- Tell your son that it sucks to get yelled at. Tell him a story in which you got yelled at and explain to him how you felt.
- Don't tell your son what to do or how to feel. He can feel how he wants.
- It sounds like you don't really know exactly what happened. I wouldn't necessary reinforce that what your son did was ok. Maybe Marie had a good reason to be upset (not to act how she acted, but to be upset). Maybe not? I have no idea.
- Don't bother talking to Marie about it. You will both simply take the position of defending your own kids and will fight with each other. Nothing good will come of it. More people will be yelling and I would be shocked if anything changes.
- If you think there is a big problem with this women, tell the school what happened. Don't tell the school what to do. That is their job to decide.
- This is your son's friend. If he wants to go to the bday party, he should go. Treat it like a normal bday party.
- It sucks to get yelled at. Your child is probably ok. Grown ups (and kids) will yell at your son again. Sometimes for good reasons. Sometimes not. Your son will be fine and he will be yelled at again.
posted by jazh at 2:28 AM on May 14, 2013 [6 favorites]
- Tell your son that it sucks to get yelled at. Tell him a story in which you got yelled at and explain to him how you felt.
- Don't tell your son what to do or how to feel. He can feel how he wants.
- It sounds like you don't really know exactly what happened. I wouldn't necessary reinforce that what your son did was ok. Maybe Marie had a good reason to be upset (not to act how she acted, but to be upset). Maybe not? I have no idea.
- Don't bother talking to Marie about it. You will both simply take the position of defending your own kids and will fight with each other. Nothing good will come of it. More people will be yelling and I would be shocked if anything changes.
- If you think there is a big problem with this women, tell the school what happened. Don't tell the school what to do. That is their job to decide.
- This is your son's friend. If he wants to go to the bday party, he should go. Treat it like a normal bday party.
- It sucks to get yelled at. Your child is probably ok. Grown ups (and kids) will yell at your son again. Sometimes for good reasons. Sometimes not. Your son will be fine and he will be yelled at again.
posted by jazh at 2:28 AM on May 14, 2013 [6 favorites]
Going to the birthday party is your son's choice: don't punish Marie's son because his mother's a jerk, poor kid. But I wouldn't suggest going to your son and flat-out asking him if he wants to go: just assume he does until and unless he himself says otherwise --- and yeah, stay there at the party with him.
posted by easily confused at 2:29 AM on May 14, 2013
posted by easily confused at 2:29 AM on May 14, 2013
Former childcare worker here - confronting Marie is a waste of time, and in terms of outcomes, you are, regrettably, probably the worst person to talk to her about this incident.
This is what administrations exist for. Take it to the principal. Be calm, absolutely don't bay for blood, approach it from a concern about your child perspective. Don't even discuss what you'd like to happen to Marie; tell them that you think they should be aware of it, ask them what they can do about it, and how they can ensure that incidents like this aren't a regular occurence - and that's the thing: for all you know at the moment, they could be. When parents come to an administration with these issues, administrations can not only tackle them with the authority and systemic power that they have (far, far more than a parent will ever have), but they also file them away, remember them, check if they are part of a larger pattern or problem, and adjust their response accordingly. This is important, because you are not just protecting your son, but all children at the school.
Definitely don't do anything until you are totally calm about the situation, and can control that towering rage/protective reaction. All other things being equal, your son will be okay. Indeed Marie's reaction - unfortunate and inappropriate as it is - will probably not be the last interaction with mean, unsympathetic, yelling adults in his life. The best thing you can do, after taking steps at the school, is equipping him with the emotional and cognitive tools to bounce backs from emotionally disturbing incidents like this, and it sounds like you're already doing an awesome job there.
If you can, I would totally let him go to the party with his friend, though like others I would be inclined to stay with him the whole time. It will give you a) an opportunity to see how much he's bounced back b) see Marie's interactions with her own and other children in a private (ie less inhibited) setting, in order to gauge the likelihood of a repeat incident and c) give him the social queues that this problem is not insurmountable and people aren't tainted by others' mistakes. Children absorb a lot of queues from adults; if you make it seem like a big deal to him, it will become a big deal - regardless of his initial feelings.
Finally, I'm sure your son's story is predominantly true, but I can tell you that - corroboration or no - children are the world's most unreliable narrators. The hurt your son feels is true; Marie's interactions with him were no doubt negative and may very well have included a raised voice; everything else is open to question.
I can tell you, as a former childcare worker, it is very challenging when a parent comes in all guns blazing, repeating their kid's garbled story verbatim , insisting that it's gospel truth and demanding restitution. It doesn't sound like you are that kind of person at all - you're het up about it now but already thinking super clearly about stuff - but be aware that insisting on the 100% veracity of your son's story, as confirmed by a 7 year old girl, will not help your case with the admin. Best of luck, you sound like a great mum.
posted by smoke at 3:12 AM on May 14, 2013 [50 favorites]
This is what administrations exist for. Take it to the principal. Be calm, absolutely don't bay for blood, approach it from a concern about your child perspective. Don't even discuss what you'd like to happen to Marie; tell them that you think they should be aware of it, ask them what they can do about it, and how they can ensure that incidents like this aren't a regular occurence - and that's the thing: for all you know at the moment, they could be. When parents come to an administration with these issues, administrations can not only tackle them with the authority and systemic power that they have (far, far more than a parent will ever have), but they also file them away, remember them, check if they are part of a larger pattern or problem, and adjust their response accordingly. This is important, because you are not just protecting your son, but all children at the school.
Definitely don't do anything until you are totally calm about the situation, and can control that towering rage/protective reaction. All other things being equal, your son will be okay. Indeed Marie's reaction - unfortunate and inappropriate as it is - will probably not be the last interaction with mean, unsympathetic, yelling adults in his life. The best thing you can do, after taking steps at the school, is equipping him with the emotional and cognitive tools to bounce backs from emotionally disturbing incidents like this, and it sounds like you're already doing an awesome job there.
If you can, I would totally let him go to the party with his friend, though like others I would be inclined to stay with him the whole time. It will give you a) an opportunity to see how much he's bounced back b) see Marie's interactions with her own and other children in a private (ie less inhibited) setting, in order to gauge the likelihood of a repeat incident and c) give him the social queues that this problem is not insurmountable and people aren't tainted by others' mistakes. Children absorb a lot of queues from adults; if you make it seem like a big deal to him, it will become a big deal - regardless of his initial feelings.
Finally, I'm sure your son's story is predominantly true, but I can tell you that - corroboration or no - children are the world's most unreliable narrators. The hurt your son feels is true; Marie's interactions with him were no doubt negative and may very well have included a raised voice; everything else is open to question.
I can tell you, as a former childcare worker, it is very challenging when a parent comes in all guns blazing, repeating their kid's garbled story verbatim , insisting that it's gospel truth and demanding restitution. It doesn't sound like you are that kind of person at all - you're het up about it now but already thinking super clearly about stuff - but be aware that insisting on the 100% veracity of your son's story, as confirmed by a 7 year old girl, will not help your case with the admin. Best of luck, you sound like a great mum.
posted by smoke at 3:12 AM on May 14, 2013 [50 favorites]
From my experience working in schools, I'd say one option is to go to administration, but my guess is that they won't be able to do much. Because really, what could they say to her?
If you decide to go to the school, as smoke says, make it as factual as possible. But don't expect them to do much especially if she has tendencies to be a loose cannon. They don't want to be on the receiving end of her instability. So they might want to ignore the incident, especially if it happened after school hours.
If I were you, instead I'd start by talking to Marie. Make it more of a question about an upsetting incident your son reported. You're fact-finding, calm, understanding, not accusatory.
What matters is that Marie will know that you know she yelled at your kid and that it wasn't okay. That's all you really want her to know.
Unfortunately, other kid's unpleasant parents (or siblings, etc.) are one of those crappy parenting areas where you find your only control is helping your kid process an incident and then keeping them away from that person.
So to that end, you could send him to the party, but you have to stay. You can have playdates with her child, but they need to be under your supervision.
Over the years of raising my three kids, there were a few incidents with inappropriate behavior from other people (siblings, teachers, parents, etc.) and I found that all I could really do was ensure my kid was okay, that they understood (as much as they could developmentally) that sometimes people behave in ways that aren't very nice, and that it's okay to stay away from those people and tell an adult.
However, if you think Marie is truly unstable, then ignore everything I've written, tell the school and just keep your son away from her, period. You can't fight crazy.
posted by kinetic at 3:48 AM on May 14, 2013 [1 favorite]
If you decide to go to the school, as smoke says, make it as factual as possible. But don't expect them to do much especially if she has tendencies to be a loose cannon. They don't want to be on the receiving end of her instability. So they might want to ignore the incident, especially if it happened after school hours.
If I were you, instead I'd start by talking to Marie. Make it more of a question about an upsetting incident your son reported. You're fact-finding, calm, understanding, not accusatory.
What matters is that Marie will know that you know she yelled at your kid and that it wasn't okay. That's all you really want her to know.
Unfortunately, other kid's unpleasant parents (or siblings, etc.) are one of those crappy parenting areas where you find your only control is helping your kid process an incident and then keeping them away from that person.
So to that end, you could send him to the party, but you have to stay. You can have playdates with her child, but they need to be under your supervision.
Over the years of raising my three kids, there were a few incidents with inappropriate behavior from other people (siblings, teachers, parents, etc.) and I found that all I could really do was ensure my kid was okay, that they understood (as much as they could developmentally) that sometimes people behave in ways that aren't very nice, and that it's okay to stay away from those people and tell an adult.
However, if you think Marie is truly unstable, then ignore everything I've written, tell the school and just keep your son away from her, period. You can't fight crazy.
posted by kinetic at 3:48 AM on May 14, 2013 [1 favorite]
I'd tell the school but as kinetic says don't expect much. I'd also let your son go to the b-day party. It's got nothing to do with the yelling. Personally I think she sounds nuts. As a mom, I would probably have called her at home but that's probably not a good idea since she sounds unstable. I'd completely let your son and her son be friends and I'd watch out for Marie's son. Chances are with a mom that crazy, that little dude has a tough life. My other thought is that if your son has such bad headaches that he is crying and on the ground, I'd take him to the dr. It might be 5 yr old drama but it might be more.
posted by lasamana at 4:11 AM on May 14, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by lasamana at 4:11 AM on May 14, 2013 [3 favorites]
Speaking directly to Marie may not do anything to change her future behavior toward your child or any other, but it will show your child that you're willing to speak up in his defense. That's very, very important. His view of the world has just been upended ("adults are meant to help sick children"), and he's looking to you to make sense of it for him and restore his sense of justice. The two-pronged approach to that is (1) acknowledge to him that yes, sometimes adults behave inappropriately and unfairly and (2) tell Marie, with your son present, that her behavior is completely unacceptable and you insist that she not speak to your son in that way again.
posted by headnsouth at 4:17 AM on May 14, 2013 [13 favorites]
posted by headnsouth at 4:17 AM on May 14, 2013 [13 favorites]
I think I'd tell the school what happened, neutrally, and say that I was concerned about her mental stability.
I think I would tell my son that sometimes adults can have things wrong with them that makes them act in weird ways, and that she is probably sick and that it's very rare, but we try to stay away from people who 'act in weird ways' and that's why on Sunday you'll go out for ice cream instead.
I'd be sorry about the other woman's children, but I wouldn't let my kid spend time over there.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 4:24 AM on May 14, 2013 [2 favorites]
I think I would tell my son that sometimes adults can have things wrong with them that makes them act in weird ways, and that she is probably sick and that it's very rare, but we try to stay away from people who 'act in weird ways' and that's why on Sunday you'll go out for ice cream instead.
I'd be sorry about the other woman's children, but I wouldn't let my kid spend time over there.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 4:24 AM on May 14, 2013 [2 favorites]
I'm gonna agree with headnsouth here. Everyone else has addressed how to handle this with your son and it seems like you're doing a wonderful job of that already so as to how YOU handle this...
When I was younger there were lots of things my mother didn't involve herself in when it came to my little kid life. Petty disputes between me and other kids, that sort of thing, were mine to deal with. But when a grown up crossed a line my mother was there to rectify that and she let me watch her do it.
I still remember this day as if it were yesterday: My 8th grade teacher made it a habit of picking at me in class (my gifted class, no less). She was petty and after a month or so of it, it was really starting to affect me. To me, then, adults were infallible and if she was saying these bad things about me and had the guts to do it in front of a class full of kids then they must be true. I've asked my mother about this and she tells me now that when it all started happening she drew a line -- if the teacher crossed that line she was going to intervene. The teacher crossed that line.
Mom came to school. She came to my classroom, didn't knock, but opened the door. She had the iciest glare on her face I'd ever seen and she said to my teacher, almost in a growl, "You. Hall. NOW." And then she proceeded to rip that teacher up one side and down the other. She was loud but not yelling. We heard the whole thing. IT WAS AWESOME. That teacher came in and apologized and never picked on me again.
What I'm saying is that I still remember my mother sticking up for me and I still remember that on that day, I felt like a grown up could be wrong. Honestly, what my mother did for me that day is still one of those things I think about when I think about how much I love her and why.
I don't know if you should take the same approach to dealing with Marie. Personally, if I had actually witnessed that I might have flown off the handle on the woman before even realizing what I was doing so kudos to you for keeping calm. But I do think that it's fair game to, in the presence of your son, tell her that her behavior was unacceptable and that it will not stand or happen again when it comes to your son.
I deal with a lot of over the top, borderline nutbag parents when it comes to all the sports my son plays. There have been times where a parent has stepped in and it seems to me that some parents just have never been made aware of the fact that other adults see their behavior and think it's repulsive. Somehow, they just don't seem to know. And when they've been told, in front of others, they've tampered down their insanity towards children (I could relate tales upon tales of a parent being told off for their behavior and it actually having the effect of shutting them up with their bullshit from then on).
I'm not telling you to flip out on Marie (although fuck her, what happens in your head that that is ever okay behavior to someone?!) but I am saying that your son is watching and there are ways to deal with this that say "this was truly wrong and mom is awesome and has my back".
posted by youandiandaflame at 4:46 AM on May 14, 2013 [23 favorites]
When I was younger there were lots of things my mother didn't involve herself in when it came to my little kid life. Petty disputes between me and other kids, that sort of thing, were mine to deal with. But when a grown up crossed a line my mother was there to rectify that and she let me watch her do it.
I still remember this day as if it were yesterday: My 8th grade teacher made it a habit of picking at me in class (my gifted class, no less). She was petty and after a month or so of it, it was really starting to affect me. To me, then, adults were infallible and if she was saying these bad things about me and had the guts to do it in front of a class full of kids then they must be true. I've asked my mother about this and she tells me now that when it all started happening she drew a line -- if the teacher crossed that line she was going to intervene. The teacher crossed that line.
Mom came to school. She came to my classroom, didn't knock, but opened the door. She had the iciest glare on her face I'd ever seen and she said to my teacher, almost in a growl, "You. Hall. NOW." And then she proceeded to rip that teacher up one side and down the other. She was loud but not yelling. We heard the whole thing. IT WAS AWESOME. That teacher came in and apologized and never picked on me again.
What I'm saying is that I still remember my mother sticking up for me and I still remember that on that day, I felt like a grown up could be wrong. Honestly, what my mother did for me that day is still one of those things I think about when I think about how much I love her and why.
I don't know if you should take the same approach to dealing with Marie. Personally, if I had actually witnessed that I might have flown off the handle on the woman before even realizing what I was doing so kudos to you for keeping calm. But I do think that it's fair game to, in the presence of your son, tell her that her behavior was unacceptable and that it will not stand or happen again when it comes to your son.
I deal with a lot of over the top, borderline nutbag parents when it comes to all the sports my son plays. There have been times where a parent has stepped in and it seems to me that some parents just have never been made aware of the fact that other adults see their behavior and think it's repulsive. Somehow, they just don't seem to know. And when they've been told, in front of others, they've tampered down their insanity towards children (I could relate tales upon tales of a parent being told off for their behavior and it actually having the effect of shutting them up with their bullshit from then on).
I'm not telling you to flip out on Marie (although fuck her, what happens in your head that that is ever okay behavior to someone?!) but I am saying that your son is watching and there are ways to deal with this that say "this was truly wrong and mom is awesome and has my back".
posted by youandiandaflame at 4:46 AM on May 14, 2013 [23 favorites]
Separate from the question of how to solve a problem like Marie is this:
My son was lying on the ground, clutching his head and saying "I have a very bad headache and no one would help me".
1. If your son is writhing in pain on the ground and crying out from head pain, he should be in the emergency room.
2. Where were the teachers/caregivers when he was crying out in pain and when another parent yelled at him?
posted by headnsouth at 4:52 AM on May 14, 2013 [33 favorites]
My son was lying on the ground, clutching his head and saying "I have a very bad headache and no one would help me".
1. If your son is writhing in pain on the ground and crying out from head pain, he should be in the emergency room.
2. Where were the teachers/caregivers when he was crying out in pain and when another parent yelled at him?
posted by headnsouth at 4:52 AM on May 14, 2013 [33 favorites]
And while I am also a fan of your child seeing you advocate for him in action, if you honestly think that this woman is unbalanced, then I would not have this conversation in front of your son.
Maybe a phone call with your son sitting near you, but if you think she might get shouty and aggressive, you'd want to keep your son away from that.
Also, yeah, get the headaches checked out.
posted by kinetic at 5:17 AM on May 14, 2013 [4 favorites]
Maybe a phone call with your son sitting near you, but if you think she might get shouty and aggressive, you'd want to keep your son away from that.
Also, yeah, get the headaches checked out.
posted by kinetic at 5:17 AM on May 14, 2013 [4 favorites]
I would tell your son that Marie is unwell and shouldn't have done what she did, and then drop it.
The main thing I learned from my mom is how to remain calm when someone pisses you off. Tell your son to let you know if she does it again.
Also, let him know that all adults aren't there to help him. Stranger danger. (Growing up in the 80's, plenty of tv shows taught me that not all adults are around to help little kids. It's a valuable lesson.)
Let him know that Marie is probably unwell and he should steer clear of her in the future.
posted by discopolo at 5:17 AM on May 14, 2013 [1 favorite]
The main thing I learned from my mom is how to remain calm when someone pisses you off. Tell your son to let you know if she does it again.
Also, let him know that all adults aren't there to help him. Stranger danger. (Growing up in the 80's, plenty of tv shows taught me that not all adults are around to help little kids. It's a valuable lesson.)
Let him know that Marie is probably unwell and he should steer clear of her in the future.
posted by discopolo at 5:17 AM on May 14, 2013 [1 favorite]
I think flabdablet gives good advice.
Picking up two things for further consideration here:
What matters is that Marie will know that you know she yelled at your kid and that it wasn't okay.
Some people are actually unable to remember that they have yelled. I have not been able to completely deconstruct what's going on in those cases, but possible explanations are either that they somehow feel that the reason that made them yell is so much bigger that they don't really see the yelling, or that they battle through such negative emotions when yelling that they subsequently suppress what happens, or, a third alternative, that their world view includes yelling to such a degree that not-yelling is not even a recognized option for them. I'm just saying, she might, if confronted, indeed come up with a different version of the tale, and if so, this might not just be based on blunt denial.
Which brings me to the next part:
children are the world's most unreliable narrators
A sad fact is that children are among the world's least readily believed narrators, and that's a different thing altogether.
Developmental psychology comes up with a bunch of statistical likelihoods about what kind of tale can be expected from kids of a certain age group, and at what stage phantasy influences narratives, in which way.
But on top of that, kids learn that they are not believed by grown ups, and they can react in various ways to this. Some simply clam up, others are more fanciful and try to test the borders by inventing stuff. Many of those who consistently are believed by their parents tend to develop good skills of relating relevant and valuable detail at quite an early age.
posted by Namlit at 5:29 AM on May 14, 2013 [2 favorites]
Picking up two things for further consideration here:
What matters is that Marie will know that you know she yelled at your kid and that it wasn't okay.
Some people are actually unable to remember that they have yelled. I have not been able to completely deconstruct what's going on in those cases, but possible explanations are either that they somehow feel that the reason that made them yell is so much bigger that they don't really see the yelling, or that they battle through such negative emotions when yelling that they subsequently suppress what happens, or, a third alternative, that their world view includes yelling to such a degree that not-yelling is not even a recognized option for them. I'm just saying, she might, if confronted, indeed come up with a different version of the tale, and if so, this might not just be based on blunt denial.
Which brings me to the next part:
children are the world's most unreliable narrators
A sad fact is that children are among the world's least readily believed narrators, and that's a different thing altogether.
Developmental psychology comes up with a bunch of statistical likelihoods about what kind of tale can be expected from kids of a certain age group, and at what stage phantasy influences narratives, in which way.
But on top of that, kids learn that they are not believed by grown ups, and they can react in various ways to this. Some simply clam up, others are more fanciful and try to test the borders by inventing stuff. Many of those who consistently are believed by their parents tend to develop good skills of relating relevant and valuable detail at quite an early age.
posted by Namlit at 5:29 AM on May 14, 2013 [2 favorites]
But on top of that, kids learn that they are not believed by grown ups, and they can react in various ways to this.
I just want to highlight this. Whatever you end up doing about Marie, it is so, so important that your kid knows that you believe him. Kids need to know that when they come to an adult with something bad that's happened, the adult will listen to them and try to help. You need to make it clear both that a) you believe his story, and b) you are glad that he told you what happened, and he should always tell you when things happen that make him uncomfortable or scared. Always.
(As for Marie, I'm in the "tell your son to keep away from her, then drop it" camp. Don't think you'll gain much by confronting her or going to the school. This is maybe a good lesson in "sometimes people act like jerks, and we get to choose how we respond.")
posted by goodbyewaffles at 5:53 AM on May 14, 2013 [6 favorites]
I just want to highlight this. Whatever you end up doing about Marie, it is so, so important that your kid knows that you believe him. Kids need to know that when they come to an adult with something bad that's happened, the adult will listen to them and try to help. You need to make it clear both that a) you believe his story, and b) you are glad that he told you what happened, and he should always tell you when things happen that make him uncomfortable or scared. Always.
(As for Marie, I'm in the "tell your son to keep away from her, then drop it" camp. Don't think you'll gain much by confronting her or going to the school. This is maybe a good lesson in "sometimes people act like jerks, and we get to choose how we respond.")
posted by goodbyewaffles at 5:53 AM on May 14, 2013 [6 favorites]
I would second smoke's advice to talk to the administration. If nothing else, they can make a record of this in case something happens between Marie and someone else's child in the future, they can note an established pattern of behavior. If she's unstable, this may have even happened before and the administration might be able to step in somehow.
As for your son, I don't think that talking to Marie in front of him is a good idea. Yes, his mother standing up for him is important - but if Marie starts screaming *at you* in front of him that's going to compound the trauma for him, which could turn Marie from "adult who did a stupid thing" into a sort of monster. Perhaps he could talk to the principal with you present, to feel like there was something he could do and that she would be accountable for bad behavior.
posted by sonika at 6:16 AM on May 14, 2013
As for your son, I don't think that talking to Marie in front of him is a good idea. Yes, his mother standing up for him is important - but if Marie starts screaming *at you* in front of him that's going to compound the trauma for him, which could turn Marie from "adult who did a stupid thing" into a sort of monster. Perhaps he could talk to the principal with you present, to feel like there was something he could do and that she would be accountable for bad behavior.
posted by sonika at 6:16 AM on May 14, 2013
There's a lot of good advice up above, and my favourites indicate what I'd write myself, and in many cases they're more articulate.
I'd like to add, as someone whose child started having migraines at your son's age, that it's also important to teach him what to do when things like headaches start - or for injuries. The "no one would help me" is what stood out to me.
Now that he's calm, and time has passed, in little conversations here and there, give him a plan where he has some control: Have a grown-up call you or his next emergency contact - they really can't do anything on their own, without your approval. He should know that in the case of a bad headache, there's only so much other grown-ups can do, but he can get the help started: He can ask to go the school office. He can have a plan for the meantime that he can manage himself: drink some water, lay down, cover his head with a sweater if he needs it to be dark and quiet. Feeling helpless was probably part of his panic, and she was the last straw. And next time you have a headache, talk him through your process. "I have a headache. I didn't drink enough water today, I guess - I'll have some now and remember to have more tomorrow. I'm going to take an aspirin and rest a little - I know it won't last long. I'm going to have a warm bath with a cold cloth on my head. I'm going to go to bed early tonight." Headaches are kind of worrisome mysteries for little kids, and knowing that they can be simple to take care of can take some of the pressure off. Adults are so used to them (well, I am) and they're not such a visible injury that kids don't even know we have them unless we tell them.
And because my daughter is also prone to drama and often has what we scale as "#10 reactions to #2 things" we had to talk to her about how crying loudly and so being unable to communicate does nothing to make anything better, and can make it difficult for anyone to help her. Yes, he's little and needs comforting and help and has every right to be upset - but communicating can't happen when he's really and extremely reactive and no-one can understand him. It's not going to happen right away at his age, but it's the start of self-regulation when it comes to stuff like that.
I work in a school too, with kindergarteners often, and one of the first things that has to happen at times like that is to help them figure out what they need to calm themselves down. If they're not there yet, at that age doing a pattern interrupt like having a drink of water, or washing his face and hands is something he can remember on his own; and when you see him, doing some square breathing or stretching can help. Physical changes can help one's mental state faster than anything when they're that young, I find. She was absolutely wrong to phrase it in the way she did - but "I can't help until you've stopped screaming" or "Screaming doesn't help me understand what you need" is something I've had to say - but you know, in a kindly voice with hugs if wanted and other actions as required.
His belief that adults shouldn't speak to children like that is exactly right - but it's going to happen again and what is he going to do about it next time? And his belief that adults are meant to help sick children is also ideal - but sometimes they can't - so what can he do in the meantime? So, there's a lot of fantastic advice above about how you can act - but you also have an opportunity to empower him a bit.
As well, schools in our area have restraining orders against certain parents that don't allow them to be on the school grounds - and speaking abusively to other students and parents is often a factor in that. This episode alone isn't reason enough, but making an incidence report, in the ways suggested above, may be another data point for the school if other parents or educators have had issues with this person.
posted by peagood at 6:33 AM on May 14, 2013 [19 favorites]
I'd like to add, as someone whose child started having migraines at your son's age, that it's also important to teach him what to do when things like headaches start - or for injuries. The "no one would help me" is what stood out to me.
Now that he's calm, and time has passed, in little conversations here and there, give him a plan where he has some control: Have a grown-up call you or his next emergency contact - they really can't do anything on their own, without your approval. He should know that in the case of a bad headache, there's only so much other grown-ups can do, but he can get the help started: He can ask to go the school office. He can have a plan for the meantime that he can manage himself: drink some water, lay down, cover his head with a sweater if he needs it to be dark and quiet. Feeling helpless was probably part of his panic, and she was the last straw. And next time you have a headache, talk him through your process. "I have a headache. I didn't drink enough water today, I guess - I'll have some now and remember to have more tomorrow. I'm going to take an aspirin and rest a little - I know it won't last long. I'm going to have a warm bath with a cold cloth on my head. I'm going to go to bed early tonight." Headaches are kind of worrisome mysteries for little kids, and knowing that they can be simple to take care of can take some of the pressure off. Adults are so used to them (well, I am) and they're not such a visible injury that kids don't even know we have them unless we tell them.
And because my daughter is also prone to drama and often has what we scale as "#10 reactions to #2 things" we had to talk to her about how crying loudly and so being unable to communicate does nothing to make anything better, and can make it difficult for anyone to help her. Yes, he's little and needs comforting and help and has every right to be upset - but communicating can't happen when he's really and extremely reactive and no-one can understand him. It's not going to happen right away at his age, but it's the start of self-regulation when it comes to stuff like that.
I work in a school too, with kindergarteners often, and one of the first things that has to happen at times like that is to help them figure out what they need to calm themselves down. If they're not there yet, at that age doing a pattern interrupt like having a drink of water, or washing his face and hands is something he can remember on his own; and when you see him, doing some square breathing or stretching can help. Physical changes can help one's mental state faster than anything when they're that young, I find. She was absolutely wrong to phrase it in the way she did - but "I can't help until you've stopped screaming" or "Screaming doesn't help me understand what you need" is something I've had to say - but you know, in a kindly voice with hugs if wanted and other actions as required.
His belief that adults shouldn't speak to children like that is exactly right - but it's going to happen again and what is he going to do about it next time? And his belief that adults are meant to help sick children is also ideal - but sometimes they can't - so what can he do in the meantime? So, there's a lot of fantastic advice above about how you can act - but you also have an opportunity to empower him a bit.
As well, schools in our area have restraining orders against certain parents that don't allow them to be on the school grounds - and speaking abusively to other students and parents is often a factor in that. This episode alone isn't reason enough, but making an incidence report, in the ways suggested above, may be another data point for the school if other parents or educators have had issues with this person.
posted by peagood at 6:33 AM on May 14, 2013 [19 favorites]
I would definitely inform the school so they know to keep an eye on Marie while she is on their grounds. But they can't do anything about her behavior off school grounds.
There is a lot of good advice about about how to help your son deal with this incident. But if you want to prevent any future incidents I'm afraid you will have to speak to Marie directly.
I would ask her to relate her version of events. Don't say anything. Just let her talk. If there is an awkward silence, let it hang there. You gain the upper hand by not saying anything about what you know happened. When you feel she's finished, let her know you saw her out the window and that it is not to happen again. Don't correct any lies or omissions. She knows what she did. Tell her you are going to accompany your child to her son's birthday party and the two of you will never speak of this again. Leave no room for argument, make it implicit that she will do what you said.
Obviously the conversation could go off the rails. The above will work if her nastiness hides a weak personality. If she is a psychopath she will probably take control of the conversation away from you but you are better off knowing if she is that unhinged. At that point you take whatever steps are necessary to eliminate her opportunities to interact directly with your son.
Caveat: this is from a relatively new parent who would relish the opportunity to hand Marie her ass.
posted by rocketpup at 6:52 AM on May 14, 2013 [4 favorites]
There is a lot of good advice about about how to help your son deal with this incident. But if you want to prevent any future incidents I'm afraid you will have to speak to Marie directly.
I would ask her to relate her version of events. Don't say anything. Just let her talk. If there is an awkward silence, let it hang there. You gain the upper hand by not saying anything about what you know happened. When you feel she's finished, let her know you saw her out the window and that it is not to happen again. Don't correct any lies or omissions. She knows what she did. Tell her you are going to accompany your child to her son's birthday party and the two of you will never speak of this again. Leave no room for argument, make it implicit that she will do what you said.
Obviously the conversation could go off the rails. The above will work if her nastiness hides a weak personality. If she is a psychopath she will probably take control of the conversation away from you but you are better off knowing if she is that unhinged. At that point you take whatever steps are necessary to eliminate her opportunities to interact directly with your son.
Caveat: this is from a relatively new parent who would relish the opportunity to hand Marie her ass.
posted by rocketpup at 6:52 AM on May 14, 2013 [4 favorites]
You're never, ever, ever going to "win" at anything with Marie. She already thinks your kid is a problem, and by extension, you are a problem. Marie is dead to you. Focus on managing your kid's reactions.
Writhing on the floor complaining about a headache? Focus on that.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 6:57 AM on May 14, 2013 [1 favorite]
Writhing on the floor complaining about a headache? Focus on that.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 6:57 AM on May 14, 2013 [1 favorite]
Marie is a loose canon, she's not stabile and her child should be a source of your pity.
Assure your son that you agree that Marie was mean to him. Explain in a way that your child can understand that sometimes adults can be jerks and that it has nothing to do with him.
I would say something to Marie. "Marie, I'm very upset about the way you spoke to Liam at school the other day. He was ill and asked for your help. I understand that you spoke very harshly to him. I want you to know that I encourage our children to play together and I want to get along with you for their sake, but if you ever so much as raise your voice to my child again, I'll report you to the authorities for child cruelty. This is not up for discussion or for debate."
I would approach her alone at school, or stop by to see her in her home. She's not going to take it well, but that's the problem with people like her. She's not right.
Take your cues from her about the party on Sunday. Even if you decide that attending would be a problem, have your child give her's a present. That poor kid has a long row to hoe.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 7:10 AM on May 14, 2013 [2 favorites]
Assure your son that you agree that Marie was mean to him. Explain in a way that your child can understand that sometimes adults can be jerks and that it has nothing to do with him.
I would say something to Marie. "Marie, I'm very upset about the way you spoke to Liam at school the other day. He was ill and asked for your help. I understand that you spoke very harshly to him. I want you to know that I encourage our children to play together and I want to get along with you for their sake, but if you ever so much as raise your voice to my child again, I'll report you to the authorities for child cruelty. This is not up for discussion or for debate."
I would approach her alone at school, or stop by to see her in her home. She's not going to take it well, but that's the problem with people like her. She's not right.
Take your cues from her about the party on Sunday. Even if you decide that attending would be a problem, have your child give her's a present. That poor kid has a long row to hoe.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 7:10 AM on May 14, 2013 [2 favorites]
Report her to the welfare authorities.
posted by txmon at 7:17 AM on May 14, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by txmon at 7:17 AM on May 14, 2013 [2 favorites]
the fact that she is currently defrauding our country's welfare system.
This won't help your son in the slightest but it might make you feel a tiny bit better to ring whatever benefit fraud hotlines there may be in your area and tip them off, in addition to whatever grown up real world solutions as suggested by others you implement...
posted by koahiatamadl at 7:27 AM on May 14, 2013 [1 favorite]
This won't help your son in the slightest but it might make you feel a tiny bit better to ring whatever benefit fraud hotlines there may be in your area and tip them off, in addition to whatever grown up real world solutions as suggested by others you implement...
posted by koahiatamadl at 7:27 AM on May 14, 2013 [1 favorite]
Report her to the welfare authorities.
This may be the civically responsible thing to do but you need to be aware that the consequences will not only affect her, but also her son.
posted by rocketpup at 7:30 AM on May 14, 2013 [1 favorite]
This may be the civically responsible thing to do but you need to be aware that the consequences will not only affect her, but also her son.
posted by rocketpup at 7:30 AM on May 14, 2013 [1 favorite]
Wow, what a rotten experience for your son. Absolutely go to the administration; this is their job to deal with. You never know; others may have had experiences with her; they need to know what happened so they can respond appropriately.
You son is a fine age to learn that a party is an optional social event. If he wants to go, stay with him. If he wants to skip it, I'd send a gift and regrets at not being able to attend due to a family obligation. (the obligation not to spend time with mean people) The gift is because the poor child has to live with this Mom. If you can, I'd keep your son home for a day, and have a special day of hanging out. As others have said, the headaches shoiuld get medical attention.
As far as the welfare issue, try to decide your response to that without regard to the incident; revenge seems sweet, but leaves a bad aftertaste.
posted by theora55 at 7:31 AM on May 14, 2013 [2 favorites]
You son is a fine age to learn that a party is an optional social event. If he wants to go, stay with him. If he wants to skip it, I'd send a gift and regrets at not being able to attend due to a family obligation. (the obligation not to spend time with mean people) The gift is because the poor child has to live with this Mom. If you can, I'd keep your son home for a day, and have a special day of hanging out. As others have said, the headaches shoiuld get medical attention.
As far as the welfare issue, try to decide your response to that without regard to the incident; revenge seems sweet, but leaves a bad aftertaste.
posted by theora55 at 7:31 AM on May 14, 2013 [2 favorites]
"If my son requests help, please come to me instead of yelling at him"
posted by WeekendJen at 9:07 AM on May 14, 2013 [6 favorites]
posted by WeekendJen at 9:07 AM on May 14, 2013 [6 favorites]
Invite Marie's son to your home and have a special play day for the kid, including gift and ice cream. Marie should have drop off/pick up privileges only. I would be inclined not to allow my child to set foot in Marie's house, because that behaviour towards children is not OK and kids shouldn't spend time with people that behave like this.
posted by crazycanuck at 9:29 AM on May 14, 2013
posted by crazycanuck at 9:29 AM on May 14, 2013
Sadly, this isn't the first time he's going to have to deal with a "Marie." I doubt talking to Marie will help the situation. I had migraines from a very young age and getting adults to understand how painful they were was difficult. My parents understood, but others did not understand.
I know this isn't exactly what you're asking, but perhaps you could talk to the teacher and tell her about your son's headaches and ask that he be given a quiet room where he can go when he has a headache. This way, your son knows that you are helping him and he has a way to help himself when he gets a headache.
posted by parakeetdog at 9:31 AM on May 14, 2013
I know this isn't exactly what you're asking, but perhaps you could talk to the teacher and tell her about your son's headaches and ask that he be given a quiet room where he can go when he has a headache. This way, your son knows that you are helping him and he has a way to help himself when he gets a headache.
posted by parakeetdog at 9:31 AM on May 14, 2013
It's not true in all cases that the administration can do nothing -- at least in the US. At my son's elementary school, the principal (after consultation with lawyers) banned a parent from school property because he kept screaming abusively at people when he came to pick up his daughter. The final straw was a racial slur tossed at his daughter's teacher, in front of all the children. Hopefully a call was put in to Child Protective Services as well, given his rage issues and general instability.
posted by ravioli at 9:36 AM on May 14, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by ravioli at 9:36 AM on May 14, 2013 [2 favorites]
I don't think Marie will pay much attention to you, but I do think it's important that your son knows that you'll go to bat for him. My father had many faults as a parent, but he always let me know that he was absolutely on my side, and I saw him quietly but forcefully chew out another parent who took it upon herself to correct me for something or other. Don't punish Marie's child, but don't knock yourself out to be around her. Personally, I'd read her the riot act, but I'm not reasonable at all about my kids-- I would spell it out for the consequences of fucking with my child.
posted by Ideefixe at 9:39 AM on May 14, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by Ideefixe at 9:39 AM on May 14, 2013 [2 favorites]
txmon: "Report her to the welfare authorities."
Do not insert yourself into this situation- what goes on within another family's home is not your business. You have no evidence other than the words of someone who will ultimately deny it.
posted by mkultra at 11:04 AM on May 14, 2013 [3 favorites]
Do not insert yourself into this situation- what goes on within another family's home is not your business. You have no evidence other than the words of someone who will ultimately deny it.
posted by mkultra at 11:04 AM on May 14, 2013 [3 favorites]
Talk to the school administration first. As others have said, keep personal to yourself. However this did happen on school property and I'm guessing still on school time?
So they need to be responsible and know what is going on. That way they can keep an eye out for Marie yelling and make sure your son is okay. They should also know he was scared so that teachers know about it in case it affects his work at all in the coming days.
IF he goes to the party, definintely stay and lay down ground rules for someone.
1. You need to inform Marie that she does not have permission to act so inappropriately toward your child, and that if she does so again, you will take whatever action necessary to protect him.
^ I sort of agree with this, however I would phrase it differently. Say that something like
"You know, in my house we don't yell and try to talk about our feelings or problems. I would appreciate that you follow our house rules with my son and I find it inappropriate that you yelled at him. I will not allow yelling at my child by anyone....etc"
I think starting out that it's your own rule, as opposed to JUST something pointed at her might help cool the situation a little. That way it's like a blanket rule and if it weren't her that yelled, you would feel the same way.
posted by Crystalinne at 11:37 AM on May 14, 2013
So they need to be responsible and know what is going on. That way they can keep an eye out for Marie yelling and make sure your son is okay. They should also know he was scared so that teachers know about it in case it affects his work at all in the coming days.
IF he goes to the party, definintely stay and lay down ground rules for someone.
1. You need to inform Marie that she does not have permission to act so inappropriately toward your child, and that if she does so again, you will take whatever action necessary to protect him.
^ I sort of agree with this, however I would phrase it differently. Say that something like
"You know, in my house we don't yell and try to talk about our feelings or problems. I would appreciate that you follow our house rules with my son and I find it inappropriate that you yelled at him. I will not allow yelling at my child by anyone....etc"
I think starting out that it's your own rule, as opposed to JUST something pointed at her might help cool the situation a little. That way it's like a blanket rule and if it weren't her that yelled, you would feel the same way.
posted by Crystalinne at 11:37 AM on May 14, 2013
Look, my kid is younger than yours so admittedly I don't have a lot of real-world experience with this, but I do have a little bit. And I've been a kid on wrong end of these kind of interactions too. Even at a young age I knew when an adult was being inappropriate.
My position is that if anyone is messing with my kid, he needs to see me stand up for him, so that number one he knows that I will always advocate for him, and number two so that I am modeling behavior for him so that he learns to advocate for himself, and that it is okay and important to do so.
Too often we tell little kids to just accept things like this. "Oh, she didn't mean it", "Oh he was having a bad day", "Oh, you're okay now", but we all know that these incidents can be the kind of things we remember 30 years later. These incidents are formative in how we learn to stand up for ourselves, or not.
You sound like a great parent, not so much for what you are doing to handle the situation, which is great, but because your kid can already articulate that what happened was not okay and that it shouldn't have happened.
I can't say for sure about what Marie's mental status is, but I imagine in the same situation I would definitely have a conversation with her, either in person with my kid watching, or on the phone with my kid nearby. I would keep it calm, and I would ask for her side of the story first, but the conclusion of the conversation would be his version of events, and I would go so far as to state "I think you owe my kid an apology". Whether she apologizes or not is irrelevent. It's showing your kid that you will stand up for him that matters.
There are other issues here with regard to supervision and why a 5-year-old has to beg any passerby for medical attention, but that's a discussion to have with the administration. And I would probably have him in the room for that conversation as well. That part isn't okay either.
posted by vignettist at 12:20 PM on May 14, 2013 [2 favorites]
My position is that if anyone is messing with my kid, he needs to see me stand up for him, so that number one he knows that I will always advocate for him, and number two so that I am modeling behavior for him so that he learns to advocate for himself, and that it is okay and important to do so.
Too often we tell little kids to just accept things like this. "Oh, she didn't mean it", "Oh he was having a bad day", "Oh, you're okay now", but we all know that these incidents can be the kind of things we remember 30 years later. These incidents are formative in how we learn to stand up for ourselves, or not.
You sound like a great parent, not so much for what you are doing to handle the situation, which is great, but because your kid can already articulate that what happened was not okay and that it shouldn't have happened.
I can't say for sure about what Marie's mental status is, but I imagine in the same situation I would definitely have a conversation with her, either in person with my kid watching, or on the phone with my kid nearby. I would keep it calm, and I would ask for her side of the story first, but the conclusion of the conversation would be his version of events, and I would go so far as to state "I think you owe my kid an apology". Whether she apologizes or not is irrelevent. It's showing your kid that you will stand up for him that matters.
There are other issues here with regard to supervision and why a 5-year-old has to beg any passerby for medical attention, but that's a discussion to have with the administration. And I would probably have him in the room for that conversation as well. That part isn't okay either.
posted by vignettist at 12:20 PM on May 14, 2013 [2 favorites]
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I'd ring up Marie and calmly ask her to relate her version of events.
After that, I don't have advice. But I'm sure others will.
Certainly, I would not let this slide and just send my kid to the party on Sunday. (Especially as he probably won't want to go, poor little guy!)
posted by Salamander at 1:11 AM on May 14, 2013