Car overheated and died. Is it worth $900 just to test the engine?
May 13, 2013 6:41 AM Subscribe
Its a 2005 vw jetta TDI. That's a diesel. My radiator light was on. The fluid kept getting low. But the temperature never registered high. Still, I should have known better. The car stalled after a 6 hour trip and won't start. It stalled after coming to a stop while trying to accelerate away from the stop. There was no smoke or flames, but when I checked the coolant reservoir it was dry, and when I added water it boiled. The mechanic said the starter burnt up, and that the starter and the broken coolant pipe must be replaced just to test the engine. That will run me $900. He gave me a 50/50 that the engine is screwed, which means he just doesn't know.
Is it worth it? Is my car dead, and I need to accept it and move on?
Best answer: I think you need to get answers for these questions in order to decide what to do:
resale/trade-in value of car (after repair)?
estimate for replacement engine (and starter and coolant pipe)?
your current ability to pay this?
It's the last bit that's where these things get hard to decide. If the full repair is going to cost $2500, and you have that money in hand, it might be worth it to pay for the repairs needed for testing. But if the cost is going to be a serious financial hardship for you, it may be better to put that money down on a replacement car.
Obviously your worst case scenario is spending $900 to find out you need a replacement engine, and then discovering that you cannot afford that. So, assume that you are going to replace the engine. If you don't have the money to do that, or if the cost is close enough to just getting a new car, then write this off as an expensive lesson, I think, and put the $900 into a new car.
It is often a really hard judgement call, deciding when you are "throwing good money after bad" with repair of cars. The purely financial calculation above is assuming that the car will be as good as before the incident, of course, which is not always the case.
posted by thelonius at 7:02 AM on May 13, 2013
resale/trade-in value of car (after repair)?
estimate for replacement engine (and starter and coolant pipe)?
your current ability to pay this?
It's the last bit that's where these things get hard to decide. If the full repair is going to cost $2500, and you have that money in hand, it might be worth it to pay for the repairs needed for testing. But if the cost is going to be a serious financial hardship for you, it may be better to put that money down on a replacement car.
Obviously your worst case scenario is spending $900 to find out you need a replacement engine, and then discovering that you cannot afford that. So, assume that you are going to replace the engine. If you don't have the money to do that, or if the cost is close enough to just getting a new car, then write this off as an expensive lesson, I think, and put the $900 into a new car.
It is often a really hard judgement call, deciding when you are "throwing good money after bad" with repair of cars. The purely financial calculation above is assuming that the car will be as good as before the incident, of course, which is not always the case.
posted by thelonius at 7:02 AM on May 13, 2013
The private seller KBB value (guessing your mileage and not knowing the options) is around $9000. Naturally a lot less if it doesn't work. The repairs are a bit perilous because you could easily spend $900 and learn that it requires some more expensive repairs. So Jon is right, that's a ton to throw away.
I think your decision depends more on what your move on scenario is. Is it a new car with payments? Because that's a pretty expensive proposition and unlikely to be worth it. Is it a new used car? How much of that could you pony up at once?
posted by Mercaptan at 7:03 AM on May 13, 2013
I think your decision depends more on what your move on scenario is. Is it a new car with payments? Because that's a pretty expensive proposition and unlikely to be worth it. Is it a new used car? How much of that could you pony up at once?
posted by Mercaptan at 7:03 AM on May 13, 2013
Mercaptan: The private seller KBB value (guessing your mileage and not knowing the options) is around $9000.
FWIW, the Edmunds private sale value for an '05 Jetta GL TDI with 96K miles on the clock, in average condition, is just under $5k. Trade-in is just over $4k. KBB's numbers always seem high to me.
posted by jon1270 at 7:07 AM on May 13, 2013
FWIW, the Edmunds private sale value for an '05 Jetta GL TDI with 96K miles on the clock, in average condition, is just under $5k. Trade-in is just over $4k. KBB's numbers always seem high to me.
posted by jon1270 at 7:07 AM on May 13, 2013
TDI engines are built like tanks, it's worth testing IMO.
posted by Annika Cicada at 7:08 AM on May 13, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by Annika Cicada at 7:08 AM on May 13, 2013 [1 favorite]
First and foremost, call a few mechanics and describe the problem, and ask them how much these things cost to get an idea about whether you mechanic is being reasonable about his choices and prices.
Next, you need a working car. The question is how much you're willing to pay for a working car.
50% chance that you will only have to pay $900.
And there's a 50% chance that on top of the $900 you will have to pay, say, $2500-3000 for a new engine.
So basically you're looking at an "average cost" of about $2500.
Meanwhile, a 2005 Toyota Corolla is going to cost about $8000.
Personally, I'd take the gamble, because the engine probably isn't blown, and even if it is, you could get probably another 150,000 miles out of a Jetta with a refurbished Diesel engine, and spending $3000-$4000 to keep the car going for another 8-10 years might be worth it, though keep in mind that, being a VW, it's going to need plenty of non-engine-related repairs during that time.
posted by deanc at 7:13 AM on May 13, 2013
Next, you need a working car. The question is how much you're willing to pay for a working car.
50% chance that you will only have to pay $900.
And there's a 50% chance that on top of the $900 you will have to pay, say, $2500-3000 for a new engine.
So basically you're looking at an "average cost" of about $2500.
Meanwhile, a 2005 Toyota Corolla is going to cost about $8000.
Personally, I'd take the gamble, because the engine probably isn't blown, and even if it is, you could get probably another 150,000 miles out of a Jetta with a refurbished Diesel engine, and spending $3000-$4000 to keep the car going for another 8-10 years might be worth it, though keep in mind that, being a VW, it's going to need plenty of non-engine-related repairs during that time.
posted by deanc at 7:13 AM on May 13, 2013
Jon: Damn, that's a lot of variation, even ballparking the mileage at 80k. Either way, it's a lot to leave behind without knowing the poster's finances.
posted by Mercaptan at 7:14 AM on May 13, 2013
posted by Mercaptan at 7:14 AM on May 13, 2013
$900 for a starter and coolant return line seems inordinately high.
posted by Slap*Happy at 7:14 AM on May 13, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by Slap*Happy at 7:14 AM on May 13, 2013 [3 favorites]
The major concern is whether the engine is siezed, because you melted something together running it without coolant. A starter isn't necessarily needed for this, you can rotate the engine by hand with a socket wrench.
I'd have someone try that before doing anything else. If it won't rotate by hand, you can then see whether you want to replace the engine whole or not.
And, for future reference, any light other than "service engine soon" is a critical fault, and needs to be addressed immediately. Temperature gauges are dummy gauges on new cars. They aren't linear, and don't register a high temp until it's already too late.
posted by hwyengr at 7:17 AM on May 13, 2013 [2 favorites]
I'd have someone try that before doing anything else. If it won't rotate by hand, you can then see whether you want to replace the engine whole or not.
And, for future reference, any light other than "service engine soon" is a critical fault, and needs to be addressed immediately. Temperature gauges are dummy gauges on new cars. They aren't linear, and don't register a high temp until it's already too late.
posted by hwyengr at 7:17 AM on May 13, 2013 [2 favorites]
I was just in a very similar situation: I knew my water pump had a leak, so we were spending a minor fortune in adding coolant to try to keep it limping along because we were quoted $900 to get it fixed. But once the weather warmed it, the leak was becoming too bad and the car started overheating. So, same thing: I had to decide is it worth it putting that money in an older, hih-mileage car or put it towards a replacement. I called around and got some different estimates and ended up calling the original place back, and armed with the other estimate, I was able to negotiate a lower price to get it fixed.
If you decide to go the repair route, that's my recommendation: call around to see how much it will cost at other places and you might be able to get it fixed for much less. No guarantee, of course. But information is powerful!
FWIW, I decided to go the repair route because I knew if I got a cheap replacement car, the odds were I could end up with a car having even worse mechanical problems.
posted by Eicats at 7:21 AM on May 13, 2013
If you decide to go the repair route, that's my recommendation: call around to see how much it will cost at other places and you might be able to get it fixed for much less. No guarantee, of course. But information is powerful!
FWIW, I decided to go the repair route because I knew if I got a cheap replacement car, the odds were I could end up with a car having even worse mechanical problems.
posted by Eicats at 7:21 AM on May 13, 2013
Does the starter turn the engine? If so, it works well enough for a test.
No way in hell I'd do this without calling a few more mechanics. This is definitely a second opinion circumstance.
Worst case scenario is that your coolant leaked out and the engine froze up. That is a serious issue and quite possible. It's not quite as bad as a complete oil leak, but it has a potential for damage. It would not have killed the starter. Also, if the engine is turning over and just not starting, it's not frozen up. I call bullshit. You need fuel, compression, glowplugs, timing and electrical to make it work and even if the cooling system had a major leak, a refill would allow a short test. Doesn't make sense.
I'm not sure your post has enough information in it, but it sounds like dubious advice/assessment. Go get a second opinion. And maybe a third.
posted by FauxScot at 7:48 AM on May 13, 2013
No way in hell I'd do this without calling a few more mechanics. This is definitely a second opinion circumstance.
Worst case scenario is that your coolant leaked out and the engine froze up. That is a serious issue and quite possible. It's not quite as bad as a complete oil leak, but it has a potential for damage. It would not have killed the starter. Also, if the engine is turning over and just not starting, it's not frozen up. I call bullshit. You need fuel, compression, glowplugs, timing and electrical to make it work and even if the cooling system had a major leak, a refill would allow a short test. Doesn't make sense.
I'm not sure your post has enough information in it, but it sounds like dubious advice/assessment. Go get a second opinion. And maybe a third.
posted by FauxScot at 7:48 AM on May 13, 2013
FWIW, six months ago, I sold my '06 Jetta GL TDI with 56k miles for $10,000 - to a dealer (cash sale due to an overseas move). That $5000 Edmunds estimate sounds really low.
posted by penguinicity at 8:03 AM on May 13, 2013
posted by penguinicity at 8:03 AM on May 13, 2013
It would not have killed the starter.
Might have done, if the engine was in fact seized and the driver tried over and over and over to make it start; electric motors don't like having lots of current fed through them while you're stopping them from turning.
Replacing or repairing a seized diesel engine is going to be expensive. Not quite replacement-car expensive, but expect several thousand dollars.
In any case, having somebody who knows what they're doing find out whether the engine really has seized is probably your best first step. If it has, trying to turn the crankshaft with a wrench won't shift it even a little bit. If it hasn't, you still probably won't turn it over (diesels have hell's own compression ratio) but you'd be able to rock it back and forth some.
posted by flabdablet at 8:31 AM on May 13, 2013 [1 favorite]
Might have done, if the engine was in fact seized and the driver tried over and over and over to make it start; electric motors don't like having lots of current fed through them while you're stopping them from turning.
Replacing or repairing a seized diesel engine is going to be expensive. Not quite replacement-car expensive, but expect several thousand dollars.
In any case, having somebody who knows what they're doing find out whether the engine really has seized is probably your best first step. If it has, trying to turn the crankshaft with a wrench won't shift it even a little bit. If it hasn't, you still probably won't turn it over (diesels have hell's own compression ratio) but you'd be able to rock it back and forth some.
posted by flabdablet at 8:31 AM on May 13, 2013 [1 favorite]
Yeah, I would call some other mechanics, describe the situation and see what they say. Try the Car Talk Mechanics Files for local, well-recommended shops.
When the engine seized on my 1966 Mustang, the shop I had it towed to confirmed the fact by putting a big wrench on the crank shaft and attempting to turn the engine manually. I know that modern engines are quite a bit more complex than a 1966 V8, but it seems suspect to me that they wouldn't be able to simply determine whether the engine has seized without a $900 repair.
(And yeah - as a Volvo owner I know that some parts for European cars can be mind-bogglingly expensive, but $900 to replace a starter and a coolant return line seems like a lot even to me.)
posted by usonian at 8:32 AM on May 13, 2013
When the engine seized on my 1966 Mustang, the shop I had it towed to confirmed the fact by putting a big wrench on the crank shaft and attempting to turn the engine manually. I know that modern engines are quite a bit more complex than a 1966 V8, but it seems suspect to me that they wouldn't be able to simply determine whether the engine has seized without a $900 repair.
(And yeah - as a Volvo owner I know that some parts for European cars can be mind-bogglingly expensive, but $900 to replace a starter and a coolant return line seems like a lot even to me.)
posted by usonian at 8:32 AM on May 13, 2013
Actually we just replaced a starter in my husband's Honda Element. The starter itself, if we bought from the dealer, was $500. We looked around and couldn't find any starter for less than $300. So the starter plus all the work could feasibly be $900 I would think.
posted by WalkerWestridge at 10:16 AM on May 13, 2013
posted by WalkerWestridge at 10:16 AM on May 13, 2013
$900 does seem high, but don't VWs have a reputation as expensive to repair?
At any rate, a second quote seems like a good thing to go get.
posted by thelonius at 10:30 AM on May 13, 2013
At any rate, a second quote seems like a good thing to go get.
posted by thelonius at 10:30 AM on May 13, 2013
penguinicity: FWIW, six months ago, I sold my '06 Jetta GL TDI with 56k miles for $10,000 - to a dealer (cash sale due to an overseas move). That $5000 Edmunds estimate sounds really low.
I have never owned a TDI, but according to the Edmunds write-up about it, the 2006 model was a big leap forward over the 2005. It's easy to get the Edmunds calculator to suggest trade-in values even higher than $10K for your old car, if it's in good condition and includes some options.
posted by jon1270 at 10:34 AM on May 13, 2013
I have never owned a TDI, but according to the Edmunds write-up about it, the 2006 model was a big leap forward over the 2005. It's easy to get the Edmunds calculator to suggest trade-in values even higher than $10K for your old car, if it's in good condition and includes some options.
posted by jon1270 at 10:34 AM on May 13, 2013
Another hand in the ring for getting it somewhere that understands checking for a seized engine is step number one.
posted by davejay at 12:28 PM on May 13, 2013
posted by davejay at 12:28 PM on May 13, 2013
Unless you really cranked/tried to crank the engine and burned up the starter, the starter is probably ok...the bad news is the engine may be seized (and now cracked from having water added). You may be able to find someone to install a junkyard engine out of a wrecked car for you.
posted by 445supermag at 12:29 PM on May 13, 2013
posted by 445supermag at 12:29 PM on May 13, 2013
$900 seems very high to me. I just replaced the water pump, timing belt and starter in a 2001 Honda CRV for $585. I would shop around if you can. Good luck.
posted by cairnoflore at 4:03 PM on May 13, 2013
posted by cairnoflore at 4:03 PM on May 13, 2013
Disclaimer: I am not a car mechanic. I am not your car mechanic.
If it's a stick shift, here's my suggestion for a quick DOA test with $0 invested:
Get a bunch of hearty friends. Push start the car. Does it start? Does it run?
You don't need to fix the coolant pipe for a quick DOA test. Running it a minute or two without coolant won't do it any harm.
posted by sarah_pdx at 6:02 PM on May 13, 2013
If it's a stick shift, here's my suggestion for a quick DOA test with $0 invested:
Get a bunch of hearty friends. Push start the car. Does it start? Does it run?
You don't need to fix the coolant pipe for a quick DOA test. Running it a minute or two without coolant won't do it any harm.
posted by sarah_pdx at 6:02 PM on May 13, 2013
Whichever mechanic you choose, ask about the head gasket. My (much older) diesel VW had head gasket issues after having had coolant system issues.
posted by Napoleonic Terrier at 10:20 PM on May 13, 2013
posted by Napoleonic Terrier at 10:20 PM on May 13, 2013
Push starting a diesel is going to be quite hard even with a lot of friends.
Wherever you end up getting a mechanic to look at it, make sure they understand diesel engines! If you have a dedicated VW shop, one that's been there for decades and has a bunch of old grumps working there, that's a good spot to check out.
posted by azpenguin at 10:21 PM on May 13, 2013
Wherever you end up getting a mechanic to look at it, make sure they understand diesel engines! If you have a dedicated VW shop, one that's been there for decades and has a bunch of old grumps working there, that's a good spot to check out.
posted by azpenguin at 10:21 PM on May 13, 2013
Response by poster: RESOLUTION:
The coolant pipe was necessary; no way we could have push started that car. The starter was necessary; it had burnt out from not having coolant running to it for some time. The car runs great now, the total came to $861.
I'm still slightly puzzled as to why it stalled in the first place. Seems that having a faulty starter doesn't stall a car.
Thanks for the contributions.
posted by earley.rose at 5:18 PM on May 16, 2013
The coolant pipe was necessary; no way we could have push started that car. The starter was necessary; it had burnt out from not having coolant running to it for some time. The car runs great now, the total came to $861.
I'm still slightly puzzled as to why it stalled in the first place. Seems that having a faulty starter doesn't stall a car.
Thanks for the contributions.
posted by earley.rose at 5:18 PM on May 16, 2013
Seems that having a faulty starter doesn't stall a car.
No, but overheating can, and that can easily happen when you've lost a lot of coolant through a broken pipe/hose. It sounds like you got lucky, inasmuch as there wasn't significant engine damage.
Edit:
But the temperature never registered high.
Keep in mind that the temperature gauge doesn't measure the engine temperature directly; it measures coolant temperature. If the coolant is gone then the gauge is measuring the temperature of the air that now occupies the space where the coolant should be, and the air temperature is not going to be nearly so representative of overall engine temperature as circulating coolant is.
posted by jon1270 at 8:56 AM on May 17, 2013
No, but overheating can, and that can easily happen when you've lost a lot of coolant through a broken pipe/hose. It sounds like you got lucky, inasmuch as there wasn't significant engine damage.
Edit:
But the temperature never registered high.
Keep in mind that the temperature gauge doesn't measure the engine temperature directly; it measures coolant temperature. If the coolant is gone then the gauge is measuring the temperature of the air that now occupies the space where the coolant should be, and the air temperature is not going to be nearly so representative of overall engine temperature as circulating coolant is.
posted by jon1270 at 8:56 AM on May 17, 2013
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If your car wasn't broken, it would be worth... what, maybe $5k? That's a lot to throw away. As scrap it's probably only worth $350 or so.
posted by jon1270 at 6:59 AM on May 13, 2013