Grandpa must be crazy pt. II
May 10, 2013 2:25 PM Subscribe
My previous post from 2007 gets the sequel treatment. Here's the post.
Grandpa has dementia and has always been a relatively angry guy. Definitely high on the NPD scale. He's paranoid. He has been having petit mal seizures and even had one in front of my father and his doctor who then wanted to take his car keys away. Grandpa denies it ever happened and has been trying to strong arm my father into admitting the seizure never happened.
A few weeks ago he told my uncle something along the lines of my father dealing drugs and other illegal activities. There was even talk about hitmen. No one knows for sure but the hitman may have been hired by my father to kill grandpa or hired by gramps to kill my father.
Today he called my fathers lawyer to tell him about my fathers illegal activities, avoiding paying taxes, etc. He tried to cancel his life insurance so my father wouldn't get any of it even though the policy is for his wife.
He may be out driving, we don't know. We are unsure what he may be capable of.
My father already called his father's doctor at the VA and on a Friday afternoon he's having trouble reaching him.
What else can be done? Advice please.
Grandpa has dementia and has always been a relatively angry guy. Definitely high on the NPD scale. He's paranoid. He has been having petit mal seizures and even had one in front of my father and his doctor who then wanted to take his car keys away. Grandpa denies it ever happened and has been trying to strong arm my father into admitting the seizure never happened.
A few weeks ago he told my uncle something along the lines of my father dealing drugs and other illegal activities. There was even talk about hitmen. No one knows for sure but the hitman may have been hired by my father to kill grandpa or hired by gramps to kill my father.
Today he called my fathers lawyer to tell him about my fathers illegal activities, avoiding paying taxes, etc. He tried to cancel his life insurance so my father wouldn't get any of it even though the policy is for his wife.
He may be out driving, we don't know. We are unsure what he may be capable of.
My father already called his father's doctor at the VA and on a Friday afternoon he's having trouble reaching him.
What else can be done? Advice please.
Response by poster: We are worried about grandpa and the effect his behavior has on himself, his family, potentially strangers if he has a seizure while driving. There is a little bit of, "WTF do we do?!"
posted by Che boludo! at 2:42 PM on May 10, 2013
posted by Che boludo! at 2:42 PM on May 10, 2013
I'm neither a lawyer, doctor, or mental health professional. But it sounds like you should consider having him declared mentally incompetent. Start by calling the probate office in your district, ask for the proper forms, and then contact your grandad's primary for assistance. It might just be in the form of a referral to a licensed psychiatrist, but it'll be a start.
Think of this as an intervention. You might be able to make this go easier if you can convince your father of the need for this, then again you might be tipping your hand. Don't talk to your father's lawyers about this until you can get things aligned.
More immediately, call the fuzz and ask to put out an attempt to locate, and please make sure to emphasize the danger your grandfather poses to others. I'm relying on your description of his strength from your last post.
posted by endotoxin at 2:48 PM on May 10, 2013 [3 favorites]
Think of this as an intervention. You might be able to make this go easier if you can convince your father of the need for this, then again you might be tipping your hand. Don't talk to your father's lawyers about this until you can get things aligned.
More immediately, call the fuzz and ask to put out an attempt to locate, and please make sure to emphasize the danger your grandfather poses to others. I'm relying on your description of his strength from your last post.
posted by endotoxin at 2:48 PM on May 10, 2013 [3 favorites]
You can also hit your DMV website and see if they have guidance for reporting someone to get specially tested. Of course, if the DMV takes your grandfather's license away, will he stop driving? Or do you have to steal/hide the keys/distributor cap/etc?
I second or third the suggestion to get a geriatric psychiatrist lined up. You need, at the least, one doctor's signed opinion that your grandfather is not capable of managing his own affairs. You'll be able to use that if the police ever take your grandfather's accusations about your father seriously-- it's amazing how reasonable someone demented can sound, if you don't spend enough time with them to become aware of their delusions.
posted by suelac at 2:57 PM on May 10, 2013
I second or third the suggestion to get a geriatric psychiatrist lined up. You need, at the least, one doctor's signed opinion that your grandfather is not capable of managing his own affairs. You'll be able to use that if the police ever take your grandfather's accusations about your father seriously-- it's amazing how reasonable someone demented can sound, if you don't spend enough time with them to become aware of their delusions.
posted by suelac at 2:57 PM on May 10, 2013
Honestly, as you clearly realize, he could have a seizure while driving and kill an innocent person. He sounds like he does not have the capacity to make decisions for himself.
My personal opinion is that he needs to be brought to the emergency department for a psychiatric evaluation and potential admisison to a geriatric psych facility temporarily until he can be treated and become less of a danger to himself and others. Other options here seem far too risky to me given the very real possibility he could harm himself or someone else today. Getting someone a guardian/declared incompetent for decision making does not happen quickly.
posted by treehorn+bunny at 3:13 PM on May 10, 2013
My personal opinion is that he needs to be brought to the emergency department for a psychiatric evaluation and potential admisison to a geriatric psych facility temporarily until he can be treated and become less of a danger to himself and others. Other options here seem far too risky to me given the very real possibility he could harm himself or someone else today. Getting someone a guardian/declared incompetent for decision making does not happen quickly.
posted by treehorn+bunny at 3:13 PM on May 10, 2013
In many states doctors have to report seizures to the dmv, they take the license and the person has to remain seizure free for at least one year before they can get it back.
posted by 445supermag at 3:29 PM on May 10, 2013
posted by 445supermag at 3:29 PM on May 10, 2013
When the time came for my grandmother to stop driving, everyone understood that due to her baseline personality exacerbated by general elderly crankiness, having The Talk about her not driving anymore was likely going to be extremely costly on an interpersonal level and would likely have negatively impacted her compliance with regards to other health issues, so my uncles resorted to subterfuge and sabotage to achieve the same end. They would disable her car in a variety of ways so that she would call them to fix her car and they would then offer to drive her wherever she needed to go, and then tell her they would come back "later" to fix whatever was wrong with the car. This may or may not be an option in your grandfather's case, but definitely at a minimum I would reach out to the DMV in his state to find out what they can do on their end. It may well be easier to be told "no more driving" by a faceless bureaucrat than by a family member.
posted by ambrosia at 4:04 PM on May 10, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by ambrosia at 4:04 PM on May 10, 2013 [1 favorite]
Call the police (the non-emergency line) now and explain about gramps' seizures and dementia; at the very least, they'll locate him. Then someone will have to not only take away the car keys, but move the car somewhere else, like another family member's home.
Get gramps committed --- call a lawyer and get him declared incompetent. You shouldn't have any trouble getting his doctor on board, since the doctor knows about the dementia and actually witnessed that seizure.
posted by easily confused at 4:15 PM on May 10, 2013
Get gramps committed --- call a lawyer and get him declared incompetent. You shouldn't have any trouble getting his doctor on board, since the doctor knows about the dementia and actually witnessed that seizure.
posted by easily confused at 4:15 PM on May 10, 2013
I suggest you read The Thirty Six Hour Day which was recommended here on AskMe and will have some strategies for dealing with taking the car away and other problems you may be encountering with your grandpa. It's really revolutionizing how I deal with my mother and other relatives with these problems. Best of luck; this is hard stuff.
posted by immlass at 4:47 PM on May 10, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by immlass at 4:47 PM on May 10, 2013 [2 favorites]
I'm not clear what your actual question is. If you're concerned that you 87 year old grandfather with dementia is driving around right now, call the non-emergency number for the local PD and see if they can do a welfare check. If neither he nor the car is at home, they can try to find him.
Ignore the advice about "having him committed" - that is totally inappropriate and not how that works. But if you're asking what else can be done, I don't think anyone has enough information here to really help. Is the wide mentioned your grandfather's wife? What kind of shape is she in?
posted by DarlingBri at 6:25 PM on May 10, 2013 [1 favorite]
Ignore the advice about "having him committed" - that is totally inappropriate and not how that works. But if you're asking what else can be done, I don't think anyone has enough information here to really help. Is the wide mentioned your grandfather's wife? What kind of shape is she in?
posted by DarlingBri at 6:25 PM on May 10, 2013 [1 favorite]
In my city there is an agency that works with families and the elderly when they have dementia. Ask your doctor or county health department if there's something similar where you are.
posted by vitabellosi at 7:34 PM on May 10, 2013
posted by vitabellosi at 7:34 PM on May 10, 2013
Response by poster: Oh, yeah. I wasn't quite clear. The allegations of illegal behavior by my father are delusional confabulations or out and out lies.
posted by Che boludo! at 9:04 PM on May 10, 2013
posted by Che boludo! at 9:04 PM on May 10, 2013
I still don't know what your question is.
posted by DarlingBri at 9:27 PM on May 10, 2013
posted by DarlingBri at 9:27 PM on May 10, 2013
The question is, what can the OP and his family do about his grandfather's worsening dementia and erratic behavior?
Ignore the advice about "having him committed" - that is totally inappropriate and not how that works.
As one of the people who suggested having him evaluated for psychiatric admission, and as someone who works in an emergency department and consults psychiatry to evaluate geriatric psych patients, I can vouch for the fact that that is, indeed, how it works. However, I agree that you can't necessarily just "get someone committed" - but based on the information given here I think having a psychiatric evaluation urgently to see if he needs to be committed is the safest course of action to recommend.
Having the police track him down and then taking his keys are good ideas that will help to keep him safe in the short term, but it sounds like he lives alone, and if he is having the degree of dementia and paranoia/behavioral dysregulation that the OP suggests, that may not be a safe situation for him - he could wander off, he could accidentally burn the house down, etc. If a psychiatry consultation suggested that he did need acute admission, he could potentially get medication management to make him less dangerous and social work consultation for placement in a more appropriate setting like a skilled nursing facility with a dementia ward.
posted by treehorn+bunny at 10:28 PM on May 10, 2013 [1 favorite]
Ignore the advice about "having him committed" - that is totally inappropriate and not how that works.
As one of the people who suggested having him evaluated for psychiatric admission, and as someone who works in an emergency department and consults psychiatry to evaluate geriatric psych patients, I can vouch for the fact that that is, indeed, how it works. However, I agree that you can't necessarily just "get someone committed" - but based on the information given here I think having a psychiatric evaluation urgently to see if he needs to be committed is the safest course of action to recommend.
Having the police track him down and then taking his keys are good ideas that will help to keep him safe in the short term, but it sounds like he lives alone, and if he is having the degree of dementia and paranoia/behavioral dysregulation that the OP suggests, that may not be a safe situation for him - he could wander off, he could accidentally burn the house down, etc. If a psychiatry consultation suggested that he did need acute admission, he could potentially get medication management to make him less dangerous and social work consultation for placement in a more appropriate setting like a skilled nursing facility with a dementia ward.
posted by treehorn+bunny at 10:28 PM on May 10, 2013 [1 favorite]
It might also be worth it to "hotline" your gramps by calling your state's division of family services. Let me know he is a danger to himself and others and they can make a visit and perhaps get the ball rolling on this faster for you.
Good luck. This is tough. Take care of yourself through all of this. Thoughts and good vibes to your family :).
posted by youandiandaflame at 5:44 AM on May 11, 2013
Good luck. This is tough. Take care of yourself through all of this. Thoughts and good vibes to your family :).
posted by youandiandaflame at 5:44 AM on May 11, 2013
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If the latter, my local county court web site has "Petition for a Restraining Order" as an option on the front page, I'm no lawyer, but I'd start with that and calling your local law enforcement (assuming your grandfather's charges are baseless and you feel comfortable turning to the police for assistance).
posted by straw at 2:36 PM on May 10, 2013