Recessed ceiling lights, no attic: Ridiculous energy loss
May 1, 2013 6:25 PM Subscribe
It took two years before my nagging got my parents to finally get an energy audit done on their house. Winters in Minnesota are brutal, especially since their house with the stupid big cathedral vaulted ceiling in the "great room," so popular in the '90s, is so cold. I told them: If you're wearing coats indoors, there's something very wrong. If you're paying $400/mo in heating, that has to be wrong...
After the audit, it turns out my parents have three big holes punched in their family room ceiling.
These are recessed lights, and there's no attic there, so it's not easy to fix with more insulation in the attic. My dad claims the auditor said it's too expensive to fix, which I think is probably bullshit. He's just lazy when it comes to getting things fixed around the house. (Like three years for leaky kitchen faucet.)
I need some description and cost estimates---I figure we'll have to hire someone with a really big ladder first of all, and they'll have to inspect the lights themselves and make an assessment. Then the actual fix: Are there sealed, efficient recessed light fixtures designed specifically to address heat loss through the ceiling/roof? I figure there has to be something besides "remove recessed fixtures and patch ceiling"---but even that's an option. Ideas on pricing for either option?
Finally, can anyone recommend a local, trustworthy handyman/handywoman to do this work this summer, probably for my dad's 70th birthday? (Twin Cities, MN, suburb around St. Paul)
These are recessed lights, and there's no attic there, so it's not easy to fix with more insulation in the attic. My dad claims the auditor said it's too expensive to fix, which I think is probably bullshit. He's just lazy when it comes to getting things fixed around the house. (Like three years for leaky kitchen faucet.)
I need some description and cost estimates---I figure we'll have to hire someone with a really big ladder first of all, and they'll have to inspect the lights themselves and make an assessment. Then the actual fix: Are there sealed, efficient recessed light fixtures designed specifically to address heat loss through the ceiling/roof? I figure there has to be something besides "remove recessed fixtures and patch ceiling"---but even that's an option. Ideas on pricing for either option?
Finally, can anyone recommend a local, trustworthy handyman/handywoman to do this work this summer, probably for my dad's 70th birthday? (Twin Cities, MN, suburb around St. Paul)
The repair method that bartonlong describes is illustrated here (the comments on the article address replacement bulbs). I don't know who your inspector was, but the guy who wrote the article has a similar column in the Star Tribune newspaper and seems pretty responsive to questions. It might be worth e-mailing him to see who he would suggest for repair work.
posted by Maarika at 7:16 PM on May 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by Maarika at 7:16 PM on May 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
Recessed light fixtures that are rated for direct contact with insulation (called, helpfully "IC" for "Insulation Contact") are much larger than the visible round hole in the ceiling, so fixing this entails cutting a big hole in the ceiling, installing the new fixtures, insulating tightly around them, replacing the missing drywall (tape, mud, sanding), then repainting the whole ceiling. If the rafters are not tall enough to accommodate IC cans (they can be pretty big) then the best you can do is cut a big hole in the ceiling and use rigid foam board to piece in a box around each fixture, sealing all gaps and making sure that no part of that foam box ends up closer than 3" from the fixture. Then you can replace the fixtures and go through the same drywall and repainting process.
Unfortunately I suspect the auditor was right about this job being more expensive than it's worth. A ceiling fan in the great room, to move the heat down to where the people are, would be cheaper, less messy, and probably much more cost-effective.
posted by jon1270 at 2:47 AM on May 2, 2013 [1 favorite]
Unfortunately I suspect the auditor was right about this job being more expensive than it's worth. A ceiling fan in the great room, to move the heat down to where the people are, would be cheaper, less messy, and probably much more cost-effective.
posted by jon1270 at 2:47 AM on May 2, 2013 [1 favorite]
The auditor might have said that it was "too expensive to fix," at least from the point of view that you probably can't just buy some foam outlet/switch surrounds for 99c and put them in your outlet/light switch to reduce airflow through a poorly insulated wall, which is often the thing that "energy audits" target.
You seem to appreciate the reality of the situation: someone with a really big ladder can figure this out. It is a little sucky, but fixtures can be replaced or removed, drywall can be patched, primed, textured, and painted, and depending on the specifics, any shortcomings in the insulation can be determined. I'm wondering if perhaps insulation is actually the problem that is "too expensive to fix," which seems more plausible - especially since three recessed lights alone should not be responsible for so much air/heat leakage that you would need coats indoors. Insulation, on the other hand, ...
Contractors do seem to like to install the cheapest cans, not always the correct ones, so knowing whether or not they are the right cans, and whether or not they've been installed improperly, are important to know. We had some cans that were installed by someone who couldn't hold a hole saw straight, and so there was an unacceptable gap between the drywall and the can.
Comments about hot lights lead into a slightly different discussion, which is that heat up there right next to the roof can cause problems. If you keep the recessed lights, please be sure to replace any incandescent bulbs with LED bulbs.
Assuming that there is no catastrophic insulation issue, you might wish to consider the removal of cans, conversion to track lighting, and the addition of an appropriate ceiling fan to provide circulation of the warm air in the room.
posted by jgreco at 2:59 AM on May 2, 2013 [1 favorite]
You seem to appreciate the reality of the situation: someone with a really big ladder can figure this out. It is a little sucky, but fixtures can be replaced or removed, drywall can be patched, primed, textured, and painted, and depending on the specifics, any shortcomings in the insulation can be determined. I'm wondering if perhaps insulation is actually the problem that is "too expensive to fix," which seems more plausible - especially since three recessed lights alone should not be responsible for so much air/heat leakage that you would need coats indoors. Insulation, on the other hand, ...
Contractors do seem to like to install the cheapest cans, not always the correct ones, so knowing whether or not they are the right cans, and whether or not they've been installed improperly, are important to know. We had some cans that were installed by someone who couldn't hold a hole saw straight, and so there was an unacceptable gap between the drywall and the can.
Comments about hot lights lead into a slightly different discussion, which is that heat up there right next to the roof can cause problems. If you keep the recessed lights, please be sure to replace any incandescent bulbs with LED bulbs.
Assuming that there is no catastrophic insulation issue, you might wish to consider the removal of cans, conversion to track lighting, and the addition of an appropriate ceiling fan to provide circulation of the warm air in the room.
posted by jgreco at 2:59 AM on May 2, 2013 [1 favorite]
Building Science is an excellent source for credible and detailed source of information about building and remodeling for energy efficiency. Joe Lstiburek is the key authority. Their guide to Attic Sealing has some information (though I can't access the pdf right now). Their Cold Climate House Design guide is also an excellent resource. FWIW, some experts recommend getting rid of recessed cans all together and replacing with pendants.
posted by RandlePatrickMcMurphy at 7:40 AM on May 2, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by RandlePatrickMcMurphy at 7:40 AM on May 2, 2013 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: Thanks all. I'll contact the MN writer and a friend to see if they have any particular recommendations. Installing a ceiling fan never to move *heated* air never occurred to me, The idea that the contractor who built their house may have skimped in bigger areas did occur to me, but really hope that's not the case (hey, it's Minnesota, right?). From what little I understand, while insulation is critical for areas like that against heat moving upward, stopping the movement of air itself is a big step. It was actually worse years ago--they had a big draft coming from the fireplace, even though the fireplace vent was closed, so we sealed that, and that made a noticeable difference.
No wonder I've always hated being in the family room, even as a kid.
posted by Ky at 8:08 AM on May 2, 2013
No wonder I've always hated being in the family room, even as a kid.
posted by Ky at 8:08 AM on May 2, 2013
So I re-did an upper-floor room in Toronto a few years ago with pot lights. I suspect you'd have to open up a lot of the existing ceiling to properly re-do things. That's not cheap, but it might not really be all that expensive either - maybe a couple thousand dollars? I'm gust guessing, but if it saves a hundred dollars a month in the winter it would pay back in a few years.
Anyway, each pot light should have a pot light vapor barrier above it which gets taped to the vapor barrier that should be between your ceiling drywall and the insulation. The vapor barrier should also in theory prevent air from migrating out as well as it prevents insulation from coming in contact with the light fixture itself. On one hand I'd be really surprised if this was necessary since a decent vapor barrier should be required for code compliance, on the other hand I also know that houses are not always built perfectly to code. If you opened things up you could put in a proper barrier and then blow in more insulation (or batts, whatever). For whatever reason builders seem to skimp on insulation. Then you'd seal it all back up again. Adding a fan is also a good idea as others mentioned, to blow the hot air back down to where you need it.
Is there any way at all to get above the ceiling to look in to what's up there? That would help since you'd know if there were proper vapor barriers, how much insulation, etc.
posted by GuyZero at 10:41 AM on May 2, 2013 [1 favorite]
Anyway, each pot light should have a pot light vapor barrier above it which gets taped to the vapor barrier that should be between your ceiling drywall and the insulation. The vapor barrier should also in theory prevent air from migrating out as well as it prevents insulation from coming in contact with the light fixture itself. On one hand I'd be really surprised if this was necessary since a decent vapor barrier should be required for code compliance, on the other hand I also know that houses are not always built perfectly to code. If you opened things up you could put in a proper barrier and then blow in more insulation (or batts, whatever). For whatever reason builders seem to skimp on insulation. Then you'd seal it all back up again. Adding a fan is also a good idea as others mentioned, to blow the hot air back down to where you need it.
Is there any way at all to get above the ceiling to look in to what's up there? That would help since you'd know if there were proper vapor barriers, how much insulation, etc.
posted by GuyZero at 10:41 AM on May 2, 2013 [1 favorite]
There are pendant fixtures designed to screw into a ceiling can.
posted by yohko at 11:50 AM on May 2, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by yohko at 11:50 AM on May 2, 2013 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: @Guyzero, unfortunately there is no attic space up there at all, just ceiling, whatever spacing and insulation, and the roof, as I'd guess. Something like this really should have been done years ago. They would lower their heat to 65 degrees in the winter (not exactly comfortable for old people) and their bills would still be so high. Ridiculous.
As for adding a ceiling fan, I imagine that would take extra wiring work since there's only the three recessed lights and nothing else up there. It would be weird to replace one of those recessed lights with a fan plus pendant light, if that's even possible, because the ceiling and roof are heavily angled at the points where the lights are located...
Geez, who designed these things? :P
posted by Ky at 11:57 AM on May 2, 2013
As for adding a ceiling fan, I imagine that would take extra wiring work since there's only the three recessed lights and nothing else up there. It would be weird to replace one of those recessed lights with a fan plus pendant light, if that's even possible, because the ceiling and roof are heavily angled at the points where the lights are located...
Geez, who designed these things? :P
posted by Ky at 11:57 AM on May 2, 2013
Oh, it's vaulted as in vaulted very close to the exterior roof? Good grief. Clearly there is some sort of insulation issue going on. Then I guess my only suggestion is again to remove the ceiling and re-insulate as well as fix the wiring/lighting configuration. If you open everything up you should be able to get somewhere to put a fan. Spray-on insulation is apparently very good in tight quarters like this.
Maybe a real contractor would have some better ideas but it sounds like there's no easy fix and that the whole area is just under-insulated.
Maybe get one of those energy audit outfits to come in? They're give you a laundry list of upgrade suggestions and they usually know what qualifies for a government grant or a tax rebate. For all I know there could be bad doors too or some other issue that is causing the problem.
posted by GuyZero at 12:10 PM on May 2, 2013
Maybe a real contractor would have some better ideas but it sounds like there's no easy fix and that the whole area is just under-insulated.
Maybe get one of those energy audit outfits to come in? They're give you a laundry list of upgrade suggestions and they usually know what qualifies for a government grant or a tax rebate. For all I know there could be bad doors too or some other issue that is causing the problem.
posted by GuyZero at 12:10 PM on May 2, 2013
It would be weird to replace one of those recessed lights with a fan plus pendant light
The fan goes on a sort of extender to hang down below the angled ceiling. They look fine, or as fine as a ceiling fan usually looks if not a bit better. If you are hiring someone to do this, it shouldn't be "weird" for them to install it, they are not that unusual.
posted by yohko at 12:16 PM on May 2, 2013 [1 favorite]
The fan goes on a sort of extender to hang down below the angled ceiling. They look fine, or as fine as a ceiling fan usually looks if not a bit better. If you are hiring someone to do this, it shouldn't be "weird" for them to install it, they are not that unusual.
posted by yohko at 12:16 PM on May 2, 2013 [1 favorite]
GuyZero: love your last suggestion. See the first paragraph of the OP's question, that's what led to this being asked. Go recursive ask question go!
posted by yohko at 12:18 PM on May 2, 2013
posted by yohko at 12:18 PM on May 2, 2013
Response by poster: @Guyzero, haha, I appreciate the attempt anyway. Wear a coat if you're in MN since it's still cold out! ;) A mere addition of a fan may help, hmm.
posted by Ky at 2:36 PM on May 2, 2013
posted by Ky at 2:36 PM on May 2, 2013
This thread is closed to new comments.
They do make some lights that are sealed and supposedly air tight but I don't know how effective they are at air sealing and insulation.
Also is their any insulation in their cathedral roof? builders can be shifty and and just leave out those little details in areas that can't be easily inspected.
posted by bartonlong at 6:59 PM on May 1, 2013 [2 favorites]